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View Full Version : Did Sammy Sosa Take PED's?



Ron!n
02-14-2009, 04:53 AM
Everybody seems to take it as a given that Sosa took steroids, however, he has yet to be mentioned in any reports.

Im not sure myself just because the fact that at the same time as him McGuire and Bonds were juicing. Yet seeing as he has never been mentioned in any reports and looking through his rookie pictures there doesnt seem to be that big of a size difference, nor a huge unexplainable increase of power numbers i like to say he didnt.


So what do you guys think.

King Henrik
02-14-2009, 04:54 AM
:horse:

abe_froman
02-14-2009, 05:01 AM
Everybody seems to take it as a given that Sosa took steroids, however, he has yet to be mentioned in any reports.

Im not sure myself just because the fact that at the same time as him McGuire and Bonds were juicing. Yet seeing as he has never been mentioned in any reports and looking through his rookie pictures there doesnt seem to be that big of a size difference, nor a huge unexplainable increase of power numbers i like to say he didnt.


So what do you guys think.

there's a huge difference,and as a cubs fan you may not want to come to think it.but i'd bet my life he did

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 05:04 AM
another sammy thread?

Cracka2HI!
02-14-2009, 05:06 AM
For the sake of this site's integrity...I sure hope the homer Cubs fan who started this thread is the only no vote. Sammy is the 2nd most roided up freak/average baseball there is besides McGwire. He even admitted it by "forgetting" how to speak English. As far as his #'s...how anyone can say there was never an increase or drop off in his #'s that would indicate Steroids is beyond me. Shockingly the dropoff is the exact same time as they started testing :rolleyes: Sammy was the worst of all. He juiced and corked. This is one of most naive/homer threads in the history of this site.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 05:07 AM
Everybody seems to take it as a given that Sosa took steroids, however, he has yet to be mentioned in any reports.

Im not sure myself just because the fact that at the same time as him McGuire and Bonds were juicing. Yet seeing as he has never been mentioned in any reports and looking through his rookie pictures there doesnt seem to be that big of a size difference, nor a huge unexplainable increase of power numbers i like to say he didnt.


So what do you guys think.

are you serious no size difference.
Look for yourself when he was on the sox than look when he was with the cubs. http://www.j-fam.org/rjjracin/PC1/Sosa_Donruss_RC.JPG LOL!

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 05:12 AM
For the sake of this site's integrity...I sure hope the homer Cubs fan who started this thread is the only no vote. Sammy is the 2nd most roided up freak/average baseball there is besides McGwire. He even admitted it by "forgetting" how to speak English. As far as his #'s...how anyone can say there was never an increase or drop off in his #'s that would indicate Steroids is beyond me. Shockingly the dropoff is the exact same time as they started testing :rolleyes: Sammy was the worst of all. He juiced and corked. This is one of most naive/homer threads in the history of this site.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml

agreed 100%

the white sox baseball card is funny. no size difference my ***. http://www.j-fam.org/rjjracin/PC1/Sosa_Donruss_RC.JPG

Ron!n
02-14-2009, 05:22 AM
Im not the only one who thinks he didnt take it, and its not a homer thread you dolts, i asked your opinion and stated facts i didnt blindly say he didnt do them. I even admitted i am skeptical that he didnt.
You have every right to say he did just dont be a ******* in doing it.

stipe1280
02-14-2009, 05:53 AM
Remember when Bonds came into the league? What'd he weigh...a buck forty? Sosa wasn't much different when he came up with the Rangers. I love Sammy...nice guy, great to the fans, but how am I supposed to believe that a skinny guy blew up in a few years and all of sudden started hitting 60+ HR's a season, didn't take steroids in an era when every other player that went from scrawny to brawny and blasted balls out of the park did?

Ron!n
02-14-2009, 06:09 AM
Remember when Bonds came into the league? What'd he weigh...a buck forty? Sosa wasn't much different when he came up with the Rangers. I love Sammy...nice guy, great to the fans, but how am I supposed to believe that a skinny guy blew up in a few years and all of sudden started hitting 60+ HR's a season, didn't take steroids in an era when every other player that went from scrawny to brawny and blasted balls out of the park did?


That was my whole point, as much as i want to believe he didnt and he hasnt been mentioned anywhere, its just too much of a coincidence to ignore or be certain.

Pitty'09
02-14-2009, 07:11 AM
Everybody seems to take it as a given that Sosa took steroids, however, he has yet to be mentioned in any reports.

Im not sure myself just because the fact that at the same time as him McGuire and Bonds were juicing. Yet seeing as he has never been mentioned in any reports and looking through his rookie pictures there doesnt seem to be that big of a size difference, nor a huge unexplainable increase of power numbers i like to say he didnt.


So what do you guys think.
First off, size is not an indicator of steroids all the time. didnt he have like 33hr as his top hr through his first 6 seasons then out of no where hit 60 3 years straight? Plus he was caught with a corked bat, so we know he has no problem cheating. Plus its a coincidence that the PRACTICE bat incident came while he started sucking hard, which was after testing wasin place...

Pitty'09
02-14-2009, 07:15 AM
Remember when Bonds came into the league? What'd he weigh...a buck forty? Sosa wasn't much different when he came up with the Rangers. I love Sammy...nice guy, great to the fans, but how am I supposed to believe that a skinny guy blew up in a few years and all of sudden started hitting 60+ HR's a season, didn't take steroids in an era when every other player that went from scrawny to brawny and blasted balls out of the park did?

a 140 really? come on man. he weighed like 185. at like 23 or 24. How much did ur dad weigh when he was 23 and how much at 40?

mnrlgry
02-14-2009, 08:00 AM
Canseco "guarantees" he took them in his book "Juiced." I think Jose should be the touchstone source of who did roids because he's been proven right every single time.

If someone can state a source that trumps Jose then please do so.

jmaest
02-14-2009, 09:57 AM
Canseco "guarantees" he took them in his book "Juiced." I think Jose should be the touchstone source of who did roids because he's been proven right every single time.

If someone can state a source that trumps Jose then please do so.

Sadly this is true. When Jose Canseco says someone did steroids you can pretty much take it as gospel. How sad is it that Jose Canseco is the sole voice of credibility in baseball's steroid era?

kntresistheheat
02-14-2009, 10:50 AM
Canseco is a dumb azz:rolleyes:He swears he is the shiz out here in miami, Listen I lived in chicago and watch the cubs growing up and when sammy came to chicago he was atleast 210 or so? I am not saying that he didnt do it, but us latin people grow alot because of the food we eat (lots of rice and chicken).....Example: I dont take steriods and at the age of 25 I was like 150 at 5'9 now I am 29 and about 175 and going to the gym I am **** diesel:D So It could happend he could of done it or not:confused:Bottom line is that I dont see that he jumped so drasticly like bonds,He went up in wieght like every other year....Money comes into play he eats healthier and good training!

jmaest
02-14-2009, 11:11 AM
Canseco is a dumb azz:rolleyes:He swears he is the shiz out here in miami, Listen I lived in chicago and watch the cubs growing up and when sammy came to chicago he was atleast 210 or so? I am not saying that he didnt do it, but us latin people grow alot because of the food we eat (lots of rice and chicken).....Example: I dont take steriods and at the age of 25 I was like 150 at 5'9 now I am 29 and about 175 and going to the gym I am **** diesel:D So It could happend he could of done it or not:confused:Bottom line is that I dont see that he jumped so drasticly like bonds,He went up in wieght like every other year....Money comes into play he eats healthier and good training!

Seeing as how I'm Hispanic, played baseball and basketball my whole life, never used steroids, and used to eat like a horse, I have to say I disagree vehemently.

Sosa grew both in size and girth. It wasn't a gradual growth it was, much like Bonds, from one year to the next.

As stated numerous times, there hasn't been any real proof of Sosa's steroid use but the visual evidence is compelling.

Chazm
02-14-2009, 11:51 AM
Im not the only one who thinks he didnt take it, and its not a homer thread you dolts, i asked your opinion and stated facts i didnt blindly say he didnt do them. I even admitted i am skeptical that he didnt.
You have every right to say he did just dont be a ******* in doing it.

If you really watched the cubs in the late 90's you will know for a fact that he did steroids. I remember when the season of '97 or '98 the cubs announcer said that Sammy had a nice offseason where he put a good 20-30lbs of pure muscle.

Come on, don't be naive..

JDIsMyGod23
02-14-2009, 12:28 PM
Sammy was young... he was stupid... he was naive...

misterd
02-14-2009, 12:37 PM
Perhaps it was steroids
Some people say
That made Sosa's head
Grow THREE sizes that day!

McJoe
02-14-2009, 01:15 PM
I do not speak english.....

Tragedy
02-14-2009, 01:17 PM
Canseco "guarantees" he took them in his book "Juiced." I think Jose should be the touchstone source of who did roids because he's been proven right every single time.

If someone can state a source that trumps Jose then please do so.
Agreed. I believe mostly everything out of Jose's mouth.

And of course Sammy took steroids. Just like Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, and everyone else in the last 20 years.

philab
02-14-2009, 01:30 PM
Of course Sosa did steroids. Who cares anymore?

The steroid discussion has become tiresome. Every player from the last 20 or so years has a huge cloud hanging over them, rightfully or not. The ones who did use made MILLIONS off it (millions more than they would have, too), and the ones who didn't at least have a clean conscience. Some have been caught, others will always be suspected, and a few might come out unscathed. I can live with that, so let's move on.

Tragedy
02-14-2009, 01:33 PM
Of course Sosa did steroids. Who cares anymore?

The steroid discussion has become tiresome. Every player from the last 20 or so years has a huge cloud hanging over them, rightfully or not. The ones who did use made MILLIONS off it (millions more than they would have, too), and the ones who didn't at least have a clean conscience. Some have been caught, others will always be suspected, and a few might come out unscathed. I can live with that, so let's move on.
This is the approach I've taken: Who the hell cares? They all did it, just forget it. It's a witch hunt beyond belief.

philab
02-14-2009, 01:52 PM
This is the approach I've taken: Who the hell cares? They all did it, just forget it. It's a witch hunt beyond belief.

It's not really the witch hunt thing that gets me. These guys made millions playing a sport they love -- who cares if a few idiots on a message board claim they did steroids. I can't advocate the witch hunt, but that's not it.

What it really is for me is just that it's old, tired, and boring. There's only so much to say on a subject before it becomes uninteresting. Everyone's been suspected, all the angles have been flushed out, and it's time to just accept it for what it is.

Baseball has moved past steroids. There still may be players on PEDs; some players may have gotten away with it. For the most part, though, no one cares anymore. It's a great sport, in a time of rising popularity, and the last few seasons have been very exciting. Maybe we're all turning a blind eye to steroids now, but who cares?

Matchstckman
02-14-2009, 01:54 PM
Innocent until proven guilty

07MVPPatBurrell
02-14-2009, 01:56 PM
the question doesn't even make sense.

do you think sammy sosa take PEDs ? does that mean do you think he took PEDs ? does he currently take PEDs ?

Hawkize31
02-14-2009, 02:41 PM
Prove it.

philab
02-14-2009, 03:00 PM
Prove it.

Prove he didn't.


Like it or not, there's a presumption of guilt for just about any player of the last 20 years -- ESPECIALLY players who hit loads of HRs.

Sosa is going to go down as a user. The only way to change that perception is to prove he didn't do it. And that's impossible, but such is life.

But again, who cares?

Tragedy
02-14-2009, 03:21 PM
the question doesn't even make sense.

do you think sammy sosa take PEDs ? does that mean do you think he took PEDs ? does he currently take PEDs ?
Thread title: "Did Sammy Sosa Take Performance Enhancing Drug's?"

Clear to me.

Hawkize31
02-14-2009, 03:28 PM
Prove he didn't.


Like it or not, there's a presumption of guilt for just about any player of the last 20 years -- ESPECIALLY players who hit loads of HRs.

Sosa is going to go down as a user. The only way to change that perception is to prove he didn't do it. And that's impossible, but such is life.

But again, who cares?


It doesn't work that way. You don't have to prove innocence. Would you say that for Griffey- prove your innocence? No. Innocent until proven guilty.

RedHeadsRule
02-14-2009, 03:31 PM
I really really hope he didn't because he's my all-time favorite player, but after hearing about all the players that have done them and looking at his body, I'm going to assume he took something. But I hope I'm wrong.

philab
02-14-2009, 03:52 PM
It doesn't work that way. You don't have to prove innocence. Would you say that for Griffey- prove your innocence? No. Innocent until proven guilty.

What world are you living in?

YES, it does work that way.

This isn't a court of law; it's the perception of the public and the media that matters here. Sosa isn't going to jail. The only reason to even talk about Sosa anymore is for Hall of Fame purposes. And guess who votes for the HOF? Baseball writers -- part of the public and the media.

And I'm not telling Sosa to prove his innocence. He doesn't have to do ****. BUT . . . despite whatever lack of evidence or any claims of innocence, Sosa has been labeled a user. IF he wants to clear his name, then he'll have to prove he's innocent (which, again, is impossible).

Just to make it clear: I have nothing against Sosa -- don't really care whether he used or not anymore. I would bet my life's savings on the fact that he did, but whatever. I am, however, being realistic about the subject. Sosa is guilty until proven innocent -- not in my eyes but in those of the public/media. Sorry . . . :shrug:

R. Johnson#3
02-14-2009, 03:58 PM
PED's took Sammy Sosa.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 04:03 PM
To be the devil's advocate, and because I hate when this particular piece of information is thrown around: "Canseco said he guarantees it"

Well, in Canseco's book, Sosa is the person he says he actually has no first, second or third-hand knowledge of any use, but "guarantees" it only by his appearance and his production.--and that's one sentence in his entire book...he never again mentions Sammy Sosa



Sosa's power and HR production did not spike, it grew gradually through his 20's and peaked at ages 29-32 when he had 3 60 HR years and a 50 HR year, after age 32 he then gradually decreased. He was hitting low 30's, high 30's, hit 40, hit 42 in a shortened year due to a broken hand, the next year his power was down while returning from the broken hand but his doubles were much higher. And he didn't fall of the face of the Earth after, he hit 40 again, 30 again, 20 in 2007. An amazingly gradual curve for a career.


If he took them, he picked the perfect time because his career is by far the most natural of anybody accused.

You're comparing single pictures of him when he was 21 to when he was 29-without looking at year to year, it's really not helpful. An 8 year span of ANY player is going to show noticeable growth, except maybe A-Rod and we see how helpful that is in viewing PED use.


Until he's linked by ANYTHING, any report saying he took it or any person saying they saw, or they heard from another player who saw him taking, Sosa's career is one of the hardest to pin on steroids.

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 04:35 PM
To be the devil's advocate, and because I hate when this particular piece of information is thrown around: "Canseco said he guarantees it"

Well, in Canseco's book, Sosa is the person he says he actually has no first, second or third-hand knowledge of any use, but "guarantees" it only by his appearance and his production.--and that's one sentence in his entire book...he never again mentions Sammy Sosa



Sosa's power and HR production did not spike, it grew gradually through his 20's and peaked at ages 29-32 when he had 3 60 HR years and a 50 HR year, after age 32 he then gradually decreased. He was hitting low 30's, high 30's, hit 40, hit 42 in a shortened year due to a broken hand, the next year his power was down while returning from the broken hand but his doubles were much higher. And he didn't fall of the face of the Earth after, he hit 40 again, 30 again, 20 in 2007. An amazingly gradual curve for a career.


If he took them, he picked the perfect time because his career is by far the most natural of anybody accused.

You're comparing single pictures of him when he was 21 to when he was 29-without looking at year to year, it's really not helpful. An 8 year span of ANY player is going to show noticeable growth, except maybe A-Rod and we see how helpful that is in viewing PED use.


Until he's linked by ANYTHING, any report saying he took it or any person saying they saw, or they heard from another player who saw him taking, Sosa's career is one of the hardest to pin on steroids.

rofl!!!! :crazy::crazy:

Ron!n
02-14-2009, 04:39 PM
rofl!!!! :crazy::crazy:


Funny coming from the Sox fan, why dont you try disproving it or something?

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 04:47 PM
Funny coming from the Sox fan, why dont you try disproving it or something?

you posted this in the MLB forum for all to see it has nothing to do with the sox. If he played for the sox during that time I would be all over him being juiced. If you dont think he juiced than you are in cubbie denial. be true to yourself buddy.

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 04:52 PM
also look in the archives, there was a post discussing all of this non sense with sammy, last post was on 1/26/09 page 7 I think. So I guess 3 weeks we were due for another discussion on sammy sosa and roids. So since today is the 14th, probably around March 6th we should see another sammy roids thread pop up.....just a hunch.

Freel for prez
02-14-2009, 05:06 PM
no hablo english

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 05:57 PM
also look in the archives, there was a post discussing all of this non sense with sammy, last post was on 1/26/09 page 7 I think. So I guess 3 weeks we were due for another discussion on sammy sosa and roids. So since today is the 14th, probably around March 6th we should see another sammy roids thread pop up.....just a hunch.
It dies down all season, but it's had at least 3 threads questioning it every offseason since '05, always questioning because no one has any proof.

And there hasn't been a single piece of evidence between the first debates in '05 and now pointing to Sosa having done roids.

I do agree with Ron!n on one thing, rather than quoting my post with a smiley, why not try to disprove a single thing I posted.

abe_froman
02-14-2009, 06:05 PM
I really really hope he didn't because he's my all-time favorite player, but after hearing about all the players that have done them and looking at his body, I'm going to assume he took something. But I hope I'm wrong.

i think thats what influences it alot,the "everyone but my guy" syndrome,if he was a hero or on your fav team...the thing is every team had guys,every team!,the guys you liked not just the guys you didnt.
like cards fans with mark or giants fans with barry,it comes as a blow if/when you come to terms and really,fully accept your team and your guy did to.so its easy to see why alot of cubs fans want to be wrong(if they think it),or just dont want to think he did.i know i was a sammy fan growing up and it does come as a blow

mnrlgry
02-14-2009, 06:22 PM
Come on now, THREE 60+ HR seasons is not a spike in power to you?!


He hit 36 in 1997 and then sixty freaking six in 1998. No power spike there? Not even looking at his career, that's a spike of historical levels. Before 1998 the most he hit was 40 homers. A spike of 30 home runs in one year or 26 over your career high is HUGE.


http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/BDD_SS_MM_SI98.jpg

Roidmen of the year.

Cracka2HI!
02-14-2009, 06:23 PM
Im not the only one who thinks he didnt take it, and its not a homer thread you dolts, i asked your opinion and stated facts i didnt blindly say he didnt do them. I even admitted i am skeptical that he didnt.
You have every right to say he did just dont be a ******* in doing it.

Don't get me wrong you have every right to think he didn't do it. He is probably one of your hero's. I was just stating my opinion that its SO obvious that he did it that the only people who could possibly think he didn't are homer Cubs/Sosa fans. I would bet my bottom dollar that almost every Cubs fan even thinks he did it. So I was saying it would take a naive/homer fan. Not just a Cubs fan. The poll isn't nearly as lopsided as I thought it would be...but the Cubs are the most popular team on this forum...it would be like a Dodger fan thinking Gagne didn't roid up if there was no proof.

whitesoxfan83
02-14-2009, 06:26 PM
i think he used for the following reasons:

1st, i dont know how many times i watched the guy get interviewed and i almost never saw him struggle with a question from a media member. Yet, somehow he forgot how to speak infront of congress.

2nd, he hit 63 or more 3 times. Sure this isnt a great reason, but no one else has even hit 63 once besides Mac and Bonds, and he did it 3 times.

3rd, he corked his bat, i dont care what his excuse was corking your bat is cheating. once a cheater always a cheater.

Bronxbombers182
02-14-2009, 06:57 PM
For the sake of this site's integrity...I sure hope the homer Cubs fan who started this thread is the only no vote. Sammy is the 2nd most roided up freak/average baseball there is besides McGwire. He even admitted it by "forgetting" how to speak English. As far as his #'s...how anyone can say there was never an increase or drop off in his #'s that would indicate Steroids is beyond me. Shockingly the dropoff is the exact same time as they started testing :rolleyes: Sammy was the worst of all. He juiced and corked. This is one of most naive/homer threads in the history of this site.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml

Amen brotha!!!! :clap:

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 07:04 PM
Come on now, THREE 60+ HR seasons is not a spike in power to you?!


He hit 36 in 1997 and then sixty freaking six in 1998. No power spike there? Not even looking at his career, that's a spike of historical levels. Before 1998 the most he hit was 40 homers. A spike of 30 home runs in one year or 26 over your career high is HUGE.


http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/BDD_SS_MM_SI98.jpg

Roidmen of the year.
Hey, let's ignore the rest of his career!

1993-33 HR's at age 24
1994-25 HR's in 105 games (projects to 35 over the full year)
1995-34 HR's
1996-40 HR's in 3/4 of a year, projects to 52 (age 27)
In 1996 he hit 40 HR's in 3/4 of a season due to a broken hand on a HBP in August of '96. That projects to 52 HR's over a full season.
1997-coming back from his hand injury hits 36 HR's and a career high 31 2B's
1998-2B's drop dramatically to 20, HR's increase to 66
1999-63
2000-career year in 2B's (38) and a drop in HR's 50
2001-2B's drop slightly and HR's increase one more time
2002-HR's dip to 49
2003-40
2004-35
2005-14 in shortened year

So no, actually the spike in 1998 was not as dramatic as you like to believe in fantasy land, and it was only 10 HR's above where he was on pace to hit in 1996 before sustaining an injury. Woo-hoo for facts!


i think he used for the following reasons:

1st, i dont know how many times i watched the guy get interviewed and i almost never saw him struggle with a question from a media member. Yet, somehow he forgot how to speak infront of congress.

2nd, he hit 63 or more 3 times. Sure this isnt a great reason, but no one else has even hit 63 once besides Mac and Bonds, and he did it 3 times.

3rd, he corked his bat, i dont care what his excuse was corking your bat is cheating. once a cheater always a cheater.1st-it's still by far his second language, and he stated in his statement answers to every question they would've asked.

2nd-so he was good, therefore he cheated?

3rd-No lie, he corked a BP bat and used it in a game, but that means he does PED's?



Seems like a lot of manipulated numbers and opinions on this topic, no actual facts.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 07:05 PM
For the sake of this site's integrity...I sure hope the homer Cubs fan who started this thread is the only no vote. Sammy is the 2nd most roided up freak/average baseball there is besides McGwire. He even admitted it by "forgetting" how to speak English. As far as his #'s...how anyone can say there was never an increase or drop off in his #'s that would indicate Steroids is beyond me. Shockingly the dropoff is the exact same time as they started testing :rolleyes: Sammy was the worst of all. He juiced and corked. This is one of most naive/homer threads in the history of this site.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml
The increase and dropoff for Sammy, unlike all the other steroid freaks, completely coincides with a natural curve of a players career, increasing to a peak between ages 29-32 and a decline from then on.

JDIsMyGod23
02-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Awesome stat...

Every year Sosa hit 60 homers he didn't lead the league in any of them.

philab
02-14-2009, 07:09 PM
The increase and dropoff for Sammy, unlike all the other steroid freaks, completely coincides with a natural curve of a players career, increasing to a peak between ages 29-32 and a decline from then on.


So do you think Sammy used PEDs or not? Just curious.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 07:11 PM
So do you think Sammy used PEDs or not? Just curious.
I think there's no proof to indicate he did.

If something came out tomorrow, I'd have no problem tossing him in the same category as McGwire and the others though, in that they were still the best of the era and deserve all the praise they get. But as of now there isn't anything.

mnrlgry
02-14-2009, 07:39 PM
I think there's no proof to indicate he did.

If something came out tomorrow, I'd have no problem tossing him in the same category as McGwire and the others though, in that they were still the best of the era and deserve all the praise they get. But as of now there isn't anything.

If you had to bet your life on whether or not Sosa used steroids what would you say?

mnrlgry
02-14-2009, 07:44 PM
http://www.wisecamel.com/images/Sosa%20B%20and%20A%203.jpg


Sammy may look like a WWF wrestler but it's all natural!!

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 07:45 PM
If you had to bet your life on whether or not Sosa used steroids what would you say?
I'd say this is a stupid question to base one's life on, I wouldn't bet my life on any players being clean-including current players.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 07:46 PM
http://www.wisecamel.com/images/Sosa%20B%20and%20A%203.jpg


Sammy may look like a WWF wrestler but it's all natural!!
The World Wildlife Foundation has wrestler's now?

Another picture of him when he was 21 and him when he was probably 29-30 right after a workout.

Find me a player who doesn't look different at 21 as they do at 30, by posting this you are in fact saying you think no player's should strength train once they get into the leagues and should appear the same throughout their careers.

Cracka2HI!
02-14-2009, 07:50 PM
The increase and dropoff for Sammy, unlike all the other steroid freaks, completely coincides with a natural curve of a players career, increasing to a peak between ages 29-32 and a decline from then on.

I don't know where you get this "natural curve" thing from. 95-97 he went 36, 40, 36. Then he had a steroid induced jump to 3 60 HR seasons in 4 years. How is that a "natural curve". It probably the single biggest consistant bump of someones #'s of any user. Lets not forget that he corked so we know he cheats and he somehow forgot English. A language he had ZERO trouble speaking when he was a hero.

His 95-97 seasons were very impressive and he might have achieved 60 HR's in 1996 when he missed some time with injury...but then again wasn't injuries and wear and tear the main reason players said they started using Roids? Then in 97 he hits 36 in 162 games...then 66 then next year and over the 60 the next 4. It is very obvious to me by the #'s the years he roided. I don't see this "natural curve" at all. I admit the later part of his career does have a natural curve down, but not to start it. He literally jumped 26 HR's over his career high in one year after being consistant for 3 years.

quade36
02-14-2009, 07:56 PM
At this point, without any proof and just having an opinion like all the people who commented yes do, saying Sosa took steroids is just as believable as saying Cal Ripken Jr. took steroids. Basically, you don't know squat so presuming something is a fact based on opinion is just silly.

mnrlgry
02-14-2009, 07:57 PM
The World Wildlife Foundation has wrestler's now?

Another picture of him when he was 21 and him when he was probably 29-30 right after a workout.

Find me a player who doesn't look different at 21 as they do at 30, by posting this you are in fact saying you think no player's should strength train once they get into the leagues and should appear the same throughout their careers.

world wildlife foundation? I'm talking about the world wrestling federation, I didn't know there were two WWFs.

Those arms aren't natural. They just aren't.


I'd say this is a stupid question to base one's life on, I wouldn't bet my life on any players being clean-including current players.

Are you just being a stick in the mud or do you not want to admit that deep down you think he took them? It's a hypothetical question, Sammy Sosa has a gun to your head and says you must correctly guess whether he did steroids or not or he'll kill you.

Tragedy
02-14-2009, 08:00 PM
RBW, there is a huge increase in his HR's. Come on. He was a 30 HR guy and then turned into a 60 HR guy. That doesn't just happen normally..

philab
02-14-2009, 08:11 PM
I think there's no proof to indicate he did.

If something came out tomorrow, I'd have no problem tossing him in the same category as McGwire and the others though, in that they were still the best of the era and deserve all the praise they get. But as of now there isn't anything.

Don't dodge the question.

I'm not going to argue with you either way, but do you believe he used PEDs or not?

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 08:45 PM
world wildlife foundation? I'm talking about the world wrestling federation, I didn't know there were two WWFs.

Those arms aren't natural. They just aren't.



Are you just being a stick in the mud or do you not want to admit that deep down you think he took them? It's a hypothetical question, Sammy Sosa has a gun to your head and says you must correctly guess whether he did steroids or not or he'll kill you.
World Wrestling Federation was sued years ago for the acronym.
I don't know where you get this "natural curve" thing from. 95-97 he went 36, 40, 36.
RBW, there is a huge increase in his HR's. Come on. He was a 30 HR guy and then turned into a 60 HR guy. That doesn't just happen normally..
Except that's not true. You're looking at raw numbers, instead of rates. In 1996 he was on pace for 52 HR's but sustained broken hand 3/4 of the way into the season, ending at 40. In 1997 he was returning from that injury (one which in today's game we'd say you would expect a power drop) and put up a career high to that point in 2B's, the next year he popped out the 66.

He didn't just go from 36 to 66 magically, he showed prior to 1998 that he was a big time HR threat and could put up monster numbers.
Don't dodge the question.

I'm not going to argue with you either way, but do you believe he used PEDs or not?
It's not dodging, it's not answering a stupid question. I wouldn't bet Pujols wasn't on them for my life, I wouldn't bet Griffey wasn't on them for my life, Thomas, Bonds, Juan Pierre.

SouthSideIrish
02-14-2009, 08:46 PM
Anyone that doesn't vote yes....wow.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 08:48 PM
but then again wasn't injuries and wear and tear the main reason players said they started using Roids?Yes, Sosa decided to use roids to avoid the broken hands he sustained from being hit by a pitch. Makes total sense now.
Then in 97 he hits 36 in 162 games...then 66 then next year and over the 60 the next 4. It is very obvious to me by the #'s the years he roided. I don't see this "natural curve" at all. I admit the later part of his career does have a natural curve down, but not to start it. He literally jumped 26 HR's over his career high in one year after being consistant for 3 years.You're missing his career high in 2B's in 1997. He didn't jump 26 HR's, again, you're using raw numbers instead of a rate, which is simply ridiculous. If a guy hits 5 HR's in 50 games and then 25 in 162 the next year, did he jump 20 HR's over his previous? Literally, yes, in terms of judging him, no. And Sosa wasn't consistent for 3 years prior to 1998, he was increasing from 95-96, dropped in HR total but increased 2B in 1997 after a hand injury and then came back fully healthy in 1998.

SouthSideIrish
02-14-2009, 08:51 PM
World Wrestling Federation was sued years ago for the acronym. Except that's not true. You're looking at raw numbers, instead of rates. In 1996 he was on pace for 52 HR's but sustained broken hand 3/4 of the way into the season, ending at 40. In 1997 he was returning from that injury (one which in today's game we'd say you would expect a power drop) and put up a career high to that point in 2B's, the next year he popped out the 66.

He didn't just go from 36 to 66 magically, he showed prior to 1998 that he was a big time HR threat and could put up monster numbers.It's not dodging, it's not answering a stupid question. I wouldn't bet Pujols wasn't on them for my life, I wouldn't bet Griffey wasn't on them for my life, Thomas, Bonds, Juan Pierre.

HAHAHA man, wow. Everything about that post is ********. Sosa is one of the BIGGEST cheaters in history. No one magically improves by 30 home runs. Even if in his best season prior to the juice, he MAY have been ON PACE (what a crock of ****) to hit 52 homers, that's not the 60 plus that the piece of garbage averaged over all those seasons.

Just keep on lighting candles to your hero though and claiming that there's no proof.

Also the whole everyone was doing it defense...not a defense...at all. And theres not much I would bet my life on (it's just too risky) but one of those things would be Frank Thomas being clean.

He remembered English when it was time to answer questions.

philab
02-14-2009, 08:51 PM
It's not dodging, it's not answering a stupid question. I wouldn't bet Pujols wasn't on them for my life, I wouldn't bet Griffey wasn't on them for my life, Thomas, Bonds, Juan Pierre.

I didn't ask you to bet your life on anything; that was someone else.

All I asked was whether you believe he used PEDs or not? That's not a stupid question. And I'm not asking you to defend your answer.

I don't mean to offend -- I'm just curious.

SouthSideIrish
02-14-2009, 08:52 PM
Yes, Sosa decided to use roids to avoid the broken hands he sustained from being hit by a pitch. Makes total sense now.You're missing his career high in 2B's in 1997. He didn't jump 26 HR's, again, you're using raw numbers instead of a rate, which is simply ridiculous. If a guy hits 5 HR's in 50 games and then 25 in 162 the next year, did he jump 20 HR's over his previous? Literally, yes, in terms of judging him, no. And Sosa wasn't consistent for 3 years prior to 1998, he was increasing from 95-96, dropped in HR total but increased 2B in 1997 after a hand injury and then came back fully healthy in 1998.

No, it makes more sense that a completely average player turns into a monster. Solid stuff as usual.

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 08:55 PM
It dies down all season, but it's had at least 3 threads questioning it every offseason since '05, always questioning because no one has any proof.

And there hasn't been a single piece of evidence between the first debates in '05 and now pointing to Sosa having done roids.

I do agree with Ron!n on one thing, rather than quoting my post with a smiley, why not try to disprove a single thing I posted.

oh you want my opinion? I thought Ronin was actually wanting me to go out and gather evidence. whoooops my bad lol.

my opinion "disproving" is in other threads.

keep being in denial it is ok.

all these guys like bonds,mgwire,clemens,arod etc etc etc did roids......but sammy during the same period was the clean guy, he did it all on his own???? cmon dont be naive. You sound complelty ignorant right now defending him.

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 08:57 PM
World Wrestling Federation was sued years ago for the acronym. Except that's not true. You're looking at raw numbers, instead of rates. In 1996 he was on pace for 52 HR's but sustained broken hand 3/4 of the way into the season, ending at 40. In 1997 he was returning from that injury (one which in today's game we'd say you would expect a power drop) and put up a career high to that point in 2B's, the next year he popped out the 66.

He didn't just go from 36 to 66 magically, he showed prior to 1998 that he was a big time HR threat and could put up monster numbers.It's not dodging, it's not answering a stupid question. I wouldn't bet Pujols wasn't on them for my life, I wouldn't bet Griffey wasn't on them for my life, Thomas, Bonds, Juan Pierre.

omfg just stop

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 09:06 PM
I didn't ask you to bet your life on anything; that was someone else.

All I asked was whether you believe he used PEDs or not? That's not a stupid question. And I'm not asking you to defend your answer.

I don't mean to offend -- I'm just curious.
In this thread, I voted undecided.

My heart says probably but I hope not, my head has all the facts I've used to argue the other side that are strong IMO. As of right now, I don't think he did because it's so amazing that nothing has come out against him while stuff has come out against everyone else. But if a report came out that he tested positive in '03 or something tomorrow, I wouldn't argue against it.

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 09:08 PM
In this thread, I voted undecided.

My heart says probably but I hope not, my head has all the facts I've used to argue the other side that are strong IMO. As of right now, I don't think he did because it's so amazing that nothing has come out against him while stuff has come out against everyone else. But if a report came out that he tested positive in '03 or something tomorrow, I wouldn't argue against it.

I want other names to come out like how the arod thing came out. Im very curious on a lot of players. you just dont know anymore.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 09:08 PM
oh you want my opinion? I thought Ronin was actually wanting me to go out and gather evidence. whoooops my bad lol.

my opinion "disproving" is in other threads.

keep being in denial it is ok.

all these guys like bonds,mgwire,clemens,arod etc etc etc did roids......but sammy during the same period was the clean guy, he did it all on his own???? cmon dont be naive. You sound complelty ignorant right now defending him.
I sound ignorant?

Yet you just completely avoided posting any facts.
HAHAHA man, wow. Everything about that post is ********. Sosa is one of the BIGGEST cheaters in history. No one magically improves by 30 home runs. Even if in his best season prior to the juice, he MAY have been ON PACE (what a crock of ****) to hit 52 homers, that's not the 60 plus that the piece of garbage averaged over all those seasons.

Just keep on lighting candles to your hero though and claiming that there's no proof.

Also the whole everyone was doing it defense...not a defense...at all. And theres not much I would bet my life on (it's just too risky) but one of those things would be Frank Thomas being clean.

He remembered English when it was time to answer questions. Knowing your post history, I don't take much you say with too much credibility, so let's just knock this one down another peg.

Rates>>>>raw numbers

I never said it's okay cause everyone was doing it, I said whether or not, he's still one of the best hitters of the era, along with McGwire, Bonds, etc.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 09:09 PM
I want other names to come out like how the arod thing came out. Im very curious on a lot of players. you just dont know anymore.
Couldn't agree more, that's one reason I wouldn't bet my life on anyone.


I have a strong feeling on a couple names though, former Astros who are very popular.

Both with B's.

DewsSox79
02-14-2009, 09:12 PM
Couldn't agree more, that's one reason I wouldn't bet my life on anyone.


I have a strong feeling on a couple names though, former Astros who are very popular.

Both with B's.

hmmmmm...........which astros are you talking about lol

at the same time i think it will break my heart seeing everyone who took roids especially sox players.

I look at each sox player in a different light, and I question when they are at the plate if they did it clean, and it is sad that for the fans it has to be that way.

JDIsMyGod23
02-14-2009, 09:20 PM
Here is a reason maybe why Sosa hasn't been linked...

What other Cubs have? Normally, it starts with one guy on a team and then buries it's way down. The same reason no Red Sox or whomever haven't been linked. They haven't found a host on that team.

If there were any Cubs, then ok, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. So far, all the sources are a former A, Ranger, Yankee, White Sox, Blue Jay, Ray in Canseco, a batboy for the Mets, and a personal trainer for the Yankees. I guess also Grimsely too and Balco.

NONE of those are Sosa related. So, that is probably why Sosa isn't in ANY of those reports, but he isn't involved in any of that area of steroids.

5 guys have hit 60 homers in a season.

Ruth - God
Maris - 1960 MVP before that, short porch, Mantle behind him, expansion, plenty of reasons, and flukey too
McGwire - Roids
Bonds - Roids
Sosa - Is he really Babe Ruth?

Uhh... no.

blacknell
02-14-2009, 09:30 PM
maybe he didn't

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 09:33 PM
Here is a reason maybe why Sosa hasn't been linked...

What other Cubs have? Normally, it starts with one guy on a team and then buries it's way down. The same reason no Red Sox or whomever haven't been linked. They haven't found a host on that team.

If there were any Cubs, then ok, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. So far, all the sources are a former A, Ranger, Yankee, White Sox, Blue Jay, Ray in Canseco, a batboy for the Mets, and a personal trainer for the Yankees. I guess also Grimsely too and Balco.

NONE of those are Sosa related. So, that is probably why Sosa isn't in ANY of those reports, but he isn't involved in any of that area of steroids.

5 guys have hit 60 homers in a season.

Ruth - God
Maris - 1960 MVP before that, short porch, Mantle behind him, expansion, plenty of reasons, and flukey too
McGwire - Roids
Bonds - Roids
Sosa - Is he really Babe Ruth?

Uhh... no.
How can you possibly forget THE Neifi Perez?

After the Mitchell Report came out the Chicago Tribune posted the Cubs and Sox who were named, none of which were big names (Schoenweiss, OOOOH!), but there were a few. And all but Schoenweiss were said to have started buying after they had played in Chicago. Karchner said he saw 2 Cubs players injecting each other, but wouldn't name them, and a few of the names listed coincide with his time-frame with the Cubs. No reason given by him as to why he wouldn't name players. And no explanation how he saw guys using but all the reports indicated that while in Chicago, only Schoenweiss had any PED's delivered to him.

Also, today's game is vastly different from Ruth's era, the parks are smaller, the pitchers get less of an advantage with doctoring balls and the advancements in training are immense.

JDIsMyGod23
02-14-2009, 09:35 PM
If the 104 get released and Sosa is clean, then I'll somewhat believe it, but until then. Not a chance in hell. All I'll say, and I wouldn't could care less either. I hope everyone roided. It made baseball fun.

Cracka2HI!
02-14-2009, 09:56 PM
Yes, Sosa decided to use roids to avoid the broken hands he sustained from being hit by a pitch. Makes total sense now.You're missing his career high in 2B's in 1997. He didn't jump 26 HR's, again, you're using raw numbers instead of a rate, which is simply ridiculous. If a guy hits 5 HR's in 50 games and then 25 in 162 the next year, did he jump 20 HR's over his previous? Literally, yes, in terms of judging him, no. And Sosa wasn't consistent for 3 years prior to 1998, he was increasing from 95-96, dropped in HR total but increased 2B in 1997 after a hand injury and then came back fully healthy in 1998.

I would say there is an excellent chance he started using as a result of the hand injury to get his strength back...it actually does make sense! Thanks!!

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 10:16 PM
I would say there is an excellent chance he started using as a result of the hand injury to get his strength back...it actually does make sense! Thanks!!
So then you believe he hit 40 HR's in a short 3/4 long season (at a pace for 52 HR's) at age 27, but he couldn't improve beyond that in the peak years of his playing career?

Mmk.

To add into some questions, halfway through 1997, the Cubs promoted Jeff Pentland to hitting coach. Sosa credited Pentland with helping him fix a major flaw in his swing-the hole low and away with breaking balls-by working with him on using his power to the opposite field. In 1996 he had 8 opposite field HR's, in 1998 he had 18.

Cracka2HI!
02-14-2009, 10:19 PM
So then you believe he hit 40 HR's in a short 3/4 long season (at a pace for 52 HR's) at age 27, but he couldn't improve beyond that in the peak years of his playing career?

Mmk.

To add into some questions, halfway through 1997, the Cubs promoted Jeff Pentland to hitting coach. Sosa credited Pentland with helping him fix a major flaw in his swing-the hole low and away with breaking balls-by working with him on using his power to the opposite field. In 1996 he had 8 opposite field HR's, in 1998 he had 18.

I'll admit it isn't impossible by the #'s. Which I wouldn't have thought before this arguement. However I would say 96 was a career year and he was roiding after that. You might be right about the #'s, but I would still say there is NO chance he didn't roid. He corked for F's sake. Who would cork but no Roid? I would also say there is a chance he started roiding in 93 based on his #'s.

redwhitenblue
02-14-2009, 10:24 PM
I'll admit it isn't impossible by the #'s. Which I wouldn't have thought before this arguement. However I would say 96 was a career year and he was roiding after that. You might be right about the #'s, but I would still say there is NO chance he didn't roid. He corked for F's sake. Who would cork but no Roid? I would also say there is a chance he started roiding in 93 based on his #'s.
As long as I make you think, I don't expect to completely change your mind.


He was 24, it very well was just him coming into his own and getting full playing time.

Cracka2HI!
02-14-2009, 10:42 PM
As long as I make you think, I don't expect to completely change your mind.


He was 24, it very well was just him coming into his own and getting full playing time.

No you did. Your #'s are actually right. Also when I say he did roids, I'm not even really saying that as a bad thing. I actually support the steroids users. Everyone did it.

DewsSox79
02-15-2009, 04:37 AM
just release all pos players already so we can put these threads to rest already.

BRADY4MVP
02-15-2009, 05:31 AM
Everybody seems to take it as a given that Sosa took steroids, however, he has yet to be mentioned in any reports.

Im not sure myself just because the fact that at the same time as him McGuire and Bonds were juicing. Yet seeing as he has never been mentioned in any reports and looking through his rookie pictures there doesnt seem to be that big of a size difference, nor a huge unexplainable increase of power numbers i like to say he didnt.


So what do you guys think.

is this thread serious? amazing

Ron!n
02-15-2009, 06:03 AM
Why shouldnt it be serious?
Sportscenter starts talking about A-Rod and steroids and right away they mention Sammy.
Why should he be mentioned when he has zero evidence against him?
The evidence against him is the same as Thome, Thomas, and Jones Yet Sammy seems to be taken for granted as juicer.
I just think until some new evidence comes out linking Sammy then he shouldnt automatically be thrown under the bus:
1- Not Mentioned in the Mitchell Report
2- Only player mentioned in Conseco's book where he says he has no proof but is only judgin by his overall numbers
3- Explainable increase in power numbers over his career.
4- Not mentioned in any other steroid or enhancing reports

As long as he hasnt been mentioned anywhere why should he automatically be branded as a user? Im not saying he never used anything in his life. Nor am i saying id lay my life on the line that he didnt. Yet he seems to be getting a bad rep for being a good ball player at the wrong time.

djeller1139
02-15-2009, 04:22 PM
I'm pretty sure used some type of steriods

JAYZFAN9
02-15-2009, 06:13 PM
Ever notice the only people convinced he DIDNT use are cub fans? lol

Cubsrule
02-15-2009, 06:17 PM
Ever notice the only people convinced he DIDNT use are cub fans? lol

So you're convinced with no facts? It's not that I or my fellow Cub fans don't believe it, but people say he looks like he did but we can't provide any facts.

redwhitenblue
02-15-2009, 06:21 PM
Ever notice the only people convinced he DIDNT use are cub fans? lol
Ever notice the people who are convinced he did are the ignorant baffoons who claim any HR hitter of the era was on steroids.

They're also the same fools who believe that current HOF's are clean and they're the guys who believe that muscles=HR's.


I do notice only Cubs fans actually use real statistics when discussing Sosa's use or non-use, everyone else seems stuck on what they see and misrepresented raw stats.

Freel for prez
02-15-2009, 06:28 PM
Of course he did...

Cubsrule
02-15-2009, 06:45 PM
Of course he did...

Please present facts that show he did?

matt_the_hulk
02-15-2009, 06:45 PM
His opposite field home run total seems to be the only stat that could produce an increase of that size from a legit player. But the fact that 20 doubles that previously did not go over the fence, then did can only be explained with hitting the ball harder. Like Luiz Gonzalez, normally a doubles hitter turned into a HR freak. How they did who knows, but being the biggest Sammy Sosa fan growing up, it would be very hard to think he did not do steriods. There's a reason why not too many of the latin superstars get busted, they just don't keep their connections in the states.

redwhitenblue
02-15-2009, 06:47 PM
His opposite field home run total seems to be the only stat that could produce an increase of that size from a legit player. But the fact that 20 doubles that previously did not go over the fence, then did can only be explained with hitting the ball harder. Like Luiz Gonzalez, normally a doubles hitter turned into a HR freak. How they did who knows, but being the biggest Sammy Sosa fan growing up, it would be very hard to think he did not do steriods. There's a reason why not too many of the latin superstars get busted, they just don't keep their connections in the states.
Sure, but could hitting a ball harder be simply from finally having a fully healed hand from the break in 1996?

Pitty'09
02-16-2009, 06:21 AM
Hey, let's ignore the rest of his career!

1993-33 HR's at age 24
1994-25 HR's in 105 games (projects to 35 over the full year)
1995-34 HR's
1996-40 HR's in 3/4 of a year, projects to 52 (age 27)
In 1996 he hit 40 HR's in 3/4 of a season due to a broken hand on a HBP in August of '96. That projects to 52 HR's over a full season.
1997-coming back from his hand injury hits 36 HR's and a career high 31 2B's
1998-2B's drop dramatically to 20, HR's increase to 66
1999-63
2000-career year in 2B's (38) and a drop in HR's 50
2001-2B's drop slightly and HR's increase one more time
2002-HR's dip to 49
2003-40
2004-35
2005-14 in shortened year

So no, actually the spike in 1998 was not as dramatic as you like to believe in fantasy land, and it was only 10 HR's above where he was on pace to hit in 1996 before sustaining an injury. Woo-hoo for facts!

1st-it's still by far his second language, and he stated in his statement answers to every question they would've asked.

2nd-so he was good, therefore he cheated?

3rd-No lie, he corked a BP bat and used it in a game, but that means he does PED's?



Seems like a lot of manipulated numbers and opinions on this topic, no actual facts.
oh come on bro, ur argument is sooooo HOMER filled. He didnt cork a BP bat, he corked a bat he was using in a game, and who knows for how long because they other times it didnt break. It just proves he iswilling to cheat. And yeah his doubles dropped, cause he was hitting the ball further. Come on man.

Pitty'09
02-16-2009, 06:22 AM
Sure, but could hitting a ball harder be simply from finally having a fully healed hand from the break in 1996?
no.

Pitty'09
02-16-2009, 06:25 AM
If the 104 get released and Sosa is clean, then I'll somewhat believe it, but until then. Not a chance in hell. All I'll say, and I wouldn't could care less either. I hope everyone roided. It made baseball fun.

just because he didnt juice the one month theydid random testing does not mean he didnt juice. It just means he didnt juice for a small period of time, when he was aware random testing was going to be done. For the record i just dont care who juiced, the media made it something its not. But if Barry is going to be burned at the stake, im taking all these players down, especially guys like sosa that are and were half the hitter he was before and after. And sosa is a lying coward. i have no respect for the man sosa is.

Pitty'09
02-16-2009, 06:29 AM
just release all pos players already so we can put these threads to rest already.

again, this test does not prove any player's innocence. It proves a player didnt use for a small time frame, after their players' union agreed to random testing, thus they were all AWARE of it. proves nothing.

Ron!n
02-16-2009, 08:03 AM
Funny the same guys that say he did use it because "if it looks like a duck...."
wont be willing to accept the fact he didnt when hes not mentioned in a billion reports.
Is Sammy Sosa the only smart player in the league?

matt_the_hulk
02-16-2009, 06:07 PM
Sure, but could hitting a ball harder be simply from finally having a fully healed hand from the break in 1996?

I'm sure that had something to do with it, but maybe 10 tops. You prolly remember those hits he had, they were grotesque. You just don't see balls hit like that on Sheffield and Waveland. He was simply a monster, balls hit like that and Glenallen Hills just don't happen anymore because the amount of roids not in the game compared to before. But damn, I sure loved those bombs.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 06:10 PM
Funny the same guys that say he did use it because "if it looks like a duck...."
wont be willing to accept the fact he didnt when hes not mentioned in a billion reports.
Is Sammy Sosa the only smart player in the league?

why did he temporarily forget the English language in front of Congress then?

I mean, Ive heard him in interviews speak pretty good English plenty of times...and those Pepsi commercials were pretty good:p

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 06:11 PM
why did he temporarily forget the English language in front of Congress then?

I mean, Ive heard him in interviews speak pretty good English plenty of times...and those Pepsi commercials were pretty good:p
He didn't, he made a prewritten statement answering their questions in his first language. Why should he attempt to answer questions in his second language?

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 06:31 PM
He didn't, he made a prewritten statement answering their questions in his first language. Why should he attempt to answer questions in his second language?

Why all of the sudden did he forget to speak English? Come on now. Its was obviously a strategy move from his lawyer. Its not like Sosa is fresh off the boat...

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 06:35 PM
Why all of the sudden did he forget to speak English? Come on now. Its was obviously a strategy move from his lawyer. Its not like Sosa is fresh off the boat...
He didn't forget to speak. He chose to speak in his fluent language, which is smart.

Not being fresh off the boat doesn't mean he should go against some lawyers. Going into that no one knew what was going to be asked, it ended up being more simple than expected but he answered the questions they asked in his statement, his statement was sworn in just as the others were.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 06:44 PM
He didn't forget to speak. He chose to speak in his fluent language, which is smart.

Not being fresh off the boat doesn't mean he should go against some lawyers. Going into that no one knew what was going to be asked, it ended up being more simple than expected but he answered the questions they asked in his statement, his statement was sworn in just as the others were.

I read your responses in Sosa in the other thread as well...

sooner or later we all have to acknowledge that a few of those 104 names were players we follow and like....and that goes for players who may not have made the list as well

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 06:48 PM
I read your responses in Sosa in the other thread as well...

sooner or later we all have to acknowledge that a few of those 104 names were players we follow and like....and that goes for players who may not have made the list as well
Absolutely, if you read I said that if they came out and said he tested positive tomorrow, I'd accept it with no problem. My problem is there are tons of guys being named through players, former clubhouse guys, steroid distributers, and not a single one has named Sosa in any way.

papipapsmanny
02-16-2009, 07:38 PM
no doubt about it

1st roger maris and babe records hold for the test of time at 60 and 61 and he hits over 60 hrs 3 different years?? Then he corked his bat so he was cheating regardless, so i doubt he was against cheating by taking PEDS

chisoxfan620
02-16-2009, 08:03 PM
Is this a rhetorical question? The answer seems to be pretty evident.

NYMetros
02-16-2009, 08:06 PM
I will go with yes. If he didn't take them, then he should have said so instead of giving the excuse that he all of a sudden forgot how to speak English.

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 08:16 PM
I will go with yes. If he didn't take them, then he should have said so instead of giving the excuse that he all of a sudden forgot how to speak English.
He did say that

Sosa told the panel, "I am clean."

"Everything I have heard about steroids and human growth hormones is that they are very bad for you, even lethal," Sosa said. "I would never put anything dangerous like that in my body."

"To be clear," Sosa added, "I have never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs. I have never injected myself or had anyone inject me with anything. "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/17/entertainment/main681398.shtml

He wrote a prewritten statement, he didn't refuse to say anything.

NYMetros
02-16-2009, 08:25 PM
He did say that
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/17/entertainment/main681398.shtml

He wrote a prewritten statement, he didn't refuse to say anything.

Never under oath, however.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 08:27 PM
Never under oath, however.

exactly. its all lawyer strategy. If it came out that he did juice, Sosa could say(in Spanish I'm assuming :rolleyes:): "I didnt write that statement"...etc. All semantics.

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 08:30 PM
exactly. its all lawyer strategy. If it came out that he did juice, Sosa could say(in Spanish I'm assuming :rolleyes:): "I didnt write that statement"...etc. All semantics.
Where do you get the idea that a prewritten statement read at a congressional hearing isn't held in the same regard as personal testimony?

You realize if it was that easy to commit perjury and not be convicted that more people would use that strategy.

The statement is held in the same regard as testimony and is sworn in.
Per the NY Times

"To be clear, I have never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs," Mr. Sosa said in a sworn statement.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/18/sports/baseball/18steroids.html?ex=1268802000%26en=4f3cd9fd2f86804 b%26ei=5088%26partner=rssnyt&pagewanted=print&position=

mnrlgry
02-16-2009, 08:53 PM
Enough with the Sosa talk! Good lord I'm a Cardinals' fan who hates anything Cub related but even I am sick of this Sosa-steroid talk.

Who cares, leave it alone. He doesn't hold any records anyway so there's no sense in crying about water under the bridge.

To RWB: I know you hate these allegations and trust me on this one, the thread would die if someone wasn't around to defend Sammy *cough*

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 09:02 PM
Enough with the Sosa talk! Good lord I'm a Cardinals' fan who hates anything Cub related but even I am sick of this Sosa-steroid talk.

Who cares, leave it alone. He doesn't hold any records anyway so there's no sense in crying about water under the bridge.

To RWB: I know you hate these allegations and trust me on this one, the thread would die if someone wasn't around to defend Sammy *cough*
I don't hate allegations as much as I hate the "I know he did it" people who bring nothing to the table. If they can debate, then we'll debate all day to a stalemate and have fun. It's the misinformed people like above saying things that aren't true that get to me.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 10:32 PM
no doubt about it

1st roger maris and babe records hold for the test of time at 60 and 61 and he hits over 60 hrs 3 different years?? Then he corked his bat so he was cheating regardless, so i doubt he was against cheating by taking PEDS

Joe Morgan admitted to using corked bats, so I guess he was cheating and we have to suspect him of taking steroids as well.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 10:36 PM
I don't hate allegations as much as I hate the "I know he did it" people who bring nothing to the table. If they can debate, then we'll debate all day to a stalemate and have fun. It's the misinformed people like above saying things that aren't true that get to me.

Exactly, if you have proof, by all means post it. And not this he hit 60 homeruns in 3 years or just look at him there's no way he wasn't taking them. I will say this once, if a report comes out tomorrow and says he took them I will accept it. The problem is he has not been linked to any supplier, failed drug test, or trainer distributing them. By our own laws you are innocent till proven guilty, surprising how many people on this board refuse to abide by it.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 10:42 PM
Exactly, if you have proof, by all means post it. And not this he hit 60 homeruns in 3 years or just look at him there's no way he wasn't taking them. I will say this once, if a report comes out tomorrow and says he took them I will accept it. The problem is he has not been linked to any supplier, failed drug test, or trainer distributing them. By our own laws you are innocent till proven guilty, surprising how many people on this board refuse to abide by it.

this isnt a court of law...

the sad thing is we'll never know the extent to which steroids were used. However we have to come to the conclusion that of 104 names, a couple might be your favorite players....just as an example.

This thread is opinion-based. Personally it is my opinion that he did take steroids. I dont have proof but from my own observations it is my belief that this is most likely. His size, the fact we already know he's a cheater, his temporary lapse in the English language, the fact that he had 100 RBIs off the bench 2 years ago and STILL nobody would pick him up....

philab
02-16-2009, 10:45 PM
By our own laws you are innocent till proven guilty, surprising how many people on this board refuse to abide by it.

Sammy's not on trial though (in the literal sense), so this "innocent until proven guilty" stuff is irrelevant. Legal terminology means jack-**** outside of actual legal matters. To say "innocent until proven guilty" is to depart from reality . . .

In terms of public perception, Sammy is guilty (until proven innocent, which is impossible). Is that unfair? Maybe -- but that's the way it is.

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 10:46 PM
this isnt a court of law...

the sad thing is we'll never know the extent to which steroids were used. However we have to come to the conclusion that of 104 names, a couple might be your favorite players....just as an example.

This thread is opinion-based. Personally it is my opinion that he did take steroids. I dont have proof but from my own observations it is my belief that this is most likely. His size, the fact we already know he's a cheater, his temporary lapse in the English language, the fact that he had 100 RBIs off the bench 2 years ago and STILL nobody would pick him up....
But jus to counteract the things you "know"
Size doesn't mean jack, his big weight gain didn't come until AFTER 1998.
He didn't lose the English language, he made a sworn statement in front of the panel that answered the same questions they asked McGwire.
No one giving him a major league contract after being a DH with a poor OBP is not proof of anything.

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 10:47 PM
Sammy's not on trial though (in the literal sense), so this "innocent until proven guilty" stuff is irrelevant. Legal terminology means jack-**** outside of actual legal matters. To say "innocent until proven guilty" is to depart from reality . . .

In terms of public perception, Sammy is guilty (until proven innocent, which is impossible). Is that unfair? Maybe -- but that's the way it is.
Not proven guilty, but some type of evidence.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 10:47 PM
this isnt a court of law...

Of course not, but if people don't have any proof why are they suspecting him.



the sad thing is we'll never know the extent to which steroids were used. However we have to come to the conclusion that of 104 names, a couple might be your favorite players....just as an example.

The thing that surprises me is how many big name players including A-rod, Palmeiro, Bonds, Mcgwire and Clemens have all had their names linked to some report yet Sosa somehow to this point has stayed under the radar. Either he's really smart or he didn't take them.


This thread is opinion-based. Personally it is my opinion that he did take steroids. I dont have proof but from my own observations it is my belief that this is most likely. His size, the fact we already know he's a cheater, his temporary lapse in the English language, the fact that he had 100 RBIs off the bench 2 years ago and STILL nobody would pick him up....

Just cause he used a corked bat doesn't mean he cheated in other aspects of the game. And RBI's are more dependent on the team around you, not how much muscle you have.

whitesoxfan83
02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
you have to be a white sox fan to think joe crede is good

you have to be a cubs fan to think sosa was clean

sorry, smaller parks, faster pitchers, whatever, ill never get past:

1, forgetting how to speak english when asked about this under oath
2, corking his bat; doesnt mean he used, but it shows he was willing to cheat
3, Maris' Homerun record stood for 37 years, Sosa broke it 3 times in 4 years.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 10:51 PM
Sammy's not on trial though (in the literal sense), so this "innocent until proven guilty" stuff is irrelevant. Legal terminology means jack-**** outside of actual legal matters. To say "innocent until proven guilty" is to depart from reality . . .

In terms of public perception, Sammy is guilty (until proven innocent, which is impossible). Is that unfair? Maybe -- but that's the way it is.

The reason most people assume he is guilty is because of all the other names that have been linked to steroids and the fact he played in the steroid era. Public perception of him wasn't created by him or anything he did. People are looking at other players getting caught and assuming he cheated as well. It would be like living on a street where two drug busts have taken place and people assume the same about you because you live on the same street.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 10:51 PM
But jus to counteract the things you "know"
Size doesn't mean jack, his big weight gain didn't come until AFTER 1998.
He didn't lose the English language, he made a sworn statement in front of the panel that answered the same questions they asked McGwire.
No one giving him a major league contract after being a DH with a poor OBP is not proof of anything.

you mean to tell me that not ONE team would pick a guy up who hit 100 RBIs off the bench...b/c of OBP????

keep making excuses for the guy...it wont change my opinion.

Ive come to the realization that a couple of my heros may have been users. Its a little unrealistic to think that one of the faces in baseball during the height of the "steroid-era"...coupled with what I mentioned before, may not have done it at some point in his career.

philab
02-16-2009, 10:52 PM
Not proven guilty, but some type of evidence.

What?


Taking a stab -- he hasn't been proven guilty, obviously. He is, however, guilty in the eyes of the public, as I said. Again, I'm not condemning the guy; I just think some have lost touch with reality here.

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 10:54 PM
you have to be a white sox fan to think joe crede is good

you have to be a cubs fan to think sosa was clean

sorry, smaller parks, faster pitchers, whatever, ill never get past:

1, forgetting how to speak english when asked about this under oath
2, corking his bat; doesnt mean he used, but it shows he was willing to cheat
3, Maris' Homerun record stood for 37 years, Sosa broke it 3 times in 4 years.
He didn't forget to speak English, christ.

He made a SWORN statement answering the questions they would've asked him (did you take them, did you see others taking them), he made it in his best language, not going with his 2nd language-which is a good decision to avoid any mistake in words.


Maris' HR record was in a totally different era. Babe hit 50+ 4 times in an era where the parks were a much much bigger size, and pitchers weren't throwing at nearly the speeds they are today. He also jumped 25 HR's one year, from 29 in 1919 to 54 in 1920. I'm more surprised that guys aren't hitting 50+ more in the last 2-3 years, I think mostly because a lot of the best sluggers are focusing on being all around hitters and not swinging wildly at pitches like some of these guys used to. They're being more patient.

The record of 60 stood for 30 some years as well.

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 10:56 PM
What?


Taking a stab -- he hasn't been proven guilty, obviously. He is, however, guilty in the eyes of the public, as I said. Again, I'm not condemning the guy; I just think some have lost touch with reality here.
What are you asking "What?" for

Give a single piece of real evidence as to his involvement with PED's and it'd be considered.
you mean to tell me that not ONE team would pick a guy up who hit 100 RBIs off the bench...b/c of OBP????
He can't play the field anymore, he has to be a DH

A DH who can't play everyday because he's 39 years old.
A DH who can't get on base well at all, and doesn't run well anymore.

You're limited to 14 teams, who probably have to platoon him in the DH spot anyways.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 10:56 PM
you have to be a white sox fan to think joe crede is good you have to be a cubs fan to think sosa was clean

You don't have to be a Cub fan, just anyone who demands proof.


sorry, smaller parks, faster pitchers, whatever, ill never get past:

Whether you want to believe it or not it is true.


1, forgetting how to speak english when asked about this under oath

Why do people assume he forgot, he brought an interpreter in case he didn't understand something and everything he said he wanted to make sure it was said in the context he wanted.


2, corking his bat; doesnt mean he used, but it shows he was willing to cheat

So because he used one corked bat it means he was willing to do anything. I guess the others who admitted to corking their bats and never getting caught shows they were all willing to cheat as well.


3, Maris' Homerun record stood for 37 years, Sosa broke it 3 times in 4 years.

Yeah, ok, and....

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 10:57 PM
Of course not, but if people don't have any proof why are they suspecting him.

B/c of what's been mentioned. Ive never said I know 100% that he did...b/c I dont. However its my personal opinion that he did.


The thing that surprises me is how many big name players including A-rod, Palmeiro, Bonds, Mcgwire and Clemens have all had their names linked to some report yet Sosa somehow to this point has stayed under the radar. Either he's really smart or he didn't take them.

Corking his bat wouldnt make me think that he's very smart...thinking people are stupid by saying you cant speak enough English to say "no I didnt take steroids" wouldnt make me think he's very smart. Steroid-use was so widespread at the time that sadly we'll never know everyone who took them.


Just cause he used a corked bat doesn't mean he cheated in other aspects of the game. And RBI's are more dependent on the team around you, not how much muscle you have.

I totally agree...but it does say that the guy has no bones about cheating...and my point is that Sosa is a servicable player who nobody would touch after putting up pretty good part-time #'s...and he's not th eonly one whos been given this treatment.

^^^

oscark
02-16-2009, 10:58 PM
all over tv, in commercials, then they start asking him questions under oath and he doesn't speak english? Close this stupid *** thread, yes he did cheat just like alot of the other players, who cares though, honestly? Baseball is a game of cheating, its just who gets caught or not, stealing signs is cheating, using vaseline as a pitcher is cheating, there has always been someone cheating at any competition since the beginning of time cause the concept is to be better then someone else so some people have to find some kind of equalizer, yes sammy did steriods, don't act like it was in the early 2000's either, its been around since the 80's, maybe earlier, so asterik that last 20+ years and give all the fans back their money, lol.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 10:59 PM
^^^

Yeah, because you have no proof you have to change my post, I guess I win the argument :smoking:

redwhitenblue
02-16-2009, 10:59 PM
all over tv, in commercials, then they start asking him questions under oath and he doesn't speak english? Close this stupid *** thread, yes he did cheat just like alot of the other players, who cares though, honestly? Baseball is a game of cheating, its just who gets caught or not, stealing signs is cheating, using vaseline as a pitcher is cheating, there has always been someone cheating at any competition since the beginning of time cause the concept is to be better then someone else so some people have to find some kind of equalizer, yes sammy did steriods, don't act like it was in the early 2000's either, its been around since the 80's, maybe earlier, so asterik that last 20+ years and give all the fans back their money, lol.
You realize Yao was in commercials speaking "English" and he still couldn't say a damn sentence in English.

And he didn't pretend not to speak English, I already disproved that BS rumor.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
comment by redwhiteandblue: He can't play the field anymore, he has to be a DH

A DH who can't play everyday because he's 39 years old.
A DH who can't get on base well at all, and doesn't run well anymore.

You're limited to 14 teams, who probably have to platoon him in the DH spot anyways
---------------------

why not pick him up as a bench player? I mean he put up awesome #'s by playing part-time. You mean to tell me a player of his incredible stature and career....nobody would pick him up? He'd be low-risk, HUGE reward

philab
02-16-2009, 11:00 PM
The reason most people assume he is guilty is because of all the other names that have been linked to steroids and the fact he played in the steroid era. Public perception of him wasn't created by him or anything he did. People are looking at other players getting caught and assuming he cheated as well. It would be like living on a street where two drug busts have taken place and people assume the same about you because you live on the same street.

Again, I didn't say it was fair. I'm not coming after Sammy here. You guys can argue all day about whether he used or not -- I'll stay out of that one.


All I'm saying is that "innocent until proven guilty" is irrelevant and contrary to the reality of the situation.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 11:01 PM
Yeah, because you have no proof you have to change my post, I guess I win the argument :smoking:

I didnt change your post...I responded in bold...

just like you responded in italics

cambovenzi
02-16-2009, 11:01 PM
he is guilty as sin..

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 11:06 PM
I didnt change your post...I responded in bold...

just like you responded in italics

I didn't respond in italics, but at least you say you are basing it off opinion, but admit you have no proof, which I do respect. The thing that bugs me about this is people are just 100% sure he did it, but when they're asked to clarify they say stupid crap, like well he used a cork, or he hit 60 homeruns for 3 of 4 years. I want to see his name in a report or something that will be taken seriously before I suspect the guy.

philab
02-16-2009, 11:07 PM
What are you asking "What?" for

Give a single piece of real evidence as to his involvement with PED's and it'd be considered.



I'm asking "What?" because you responded to my post with some off-topic sentence fragment. "Not proven guilty, but some type of evidence" makes very little sense when read in the context of the post it refers to.

And I don't want to give any evidence regarding Sosa's use of PEDs because I don't care. I'm not arguing that Sosa used PEDs AT ALL. Come off the defensive for a second, will ya?

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 11:08 PM
I didn't respond in italics, but at least you say you are basing it off opinion, but admit you have no proof, which I do respect. The thing that bugs me about this is people are just 100% sure he did it, but when they're asked to clarify they say stupid crap, like well he used a cork, or he hit 60 homeruns for 3 of 4 years. I want to see his name in a report or something that will be taken seriously before I suspect the guy.

I'll be the first one to say that I have no proof. Maybe Sosa never did, who knows, but certainly all the evidence points to the fact that he did, IMO of course:p

I was as skeptical as anybody. I never thought Palmeiro would do it...and A-Rod shocked me as well.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 11:09 PM
Again, I didn't say it was fair. I'm not coming after Sammy here. You guys can argue all day about whether he used or not -- I'll stay out of that one.


All I'm saying is that "innocent until proven guilty" is irrelevant and contrary to the reality of the situation.

If anything he is guilty by association, because of the era he played in. But I already made an example out of it.

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 11:11 PM
I'll be the first one to say that I have no proof. Maybe Sosa never did, who knows, but certainly all the evidence points to the fact that he did, IMO of course:p

I was as skeptical as anybody. I never thought Palmeiro would do it...and A-Rod shocked me as well.

Same with guys like Roberts, Sanchez and Vina. This is where it gets difficult cause it shows that anyone playing could be taking steroids, so do we suspect everyone is taking them?

philab
02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
If anything he is guilty by association, because of the era he played in. But I already made an example out of it.

Haha, not really . . . he is also guilty in the eyes of the public. And considering the fact that he's out of the game and not in legal trouble, that's really the only relevant standard of guilt (because of HOF votes, legacy, etc.).

Again, that may not be fair (if he in fact did not use), but it is the reality of the situation.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Same with guys like Roberts, Sanchez and Vina. This is where it gets difficult cause it shows that anyone playing could be taking steroids, so do we suspect everyone is taking them?

wasnt Vina on the Mitchell Report?

look at Brady Anderson...Sean Green...51 HRs for one year? It doesnt make sense.

Look at "Pudge". Guy is like a twig now and his power #'s have gone down. Although you cant say 100% that they did it...the evidence points that way

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 11:22 PM
wasnt Vina on the Mitchell Report?

look at Brady Anderson...Sean Green...51 HRs for one year? It doesnt make sense.

Look at "Pudge". Guy is like a twig now and his power #'s have gone down. Although you cant say 100% that they did it...the evidence points that way

That only proves my point, if we're gonna suspect one person we need to suspect everybody, including Pujols, Thome, Berkman, Wright, everyone.

The Schmooze
02-16-2009, 11:23 PM
That only proves my point, if we're gonna suspect one person we need to suspect everybody, including Pujols, Thome, Berkman, Wright, everyone.

like I said...its not just the #'s that Sosa put up...

and I wouldnt doubt anybody anymore...

Cubsrule
02-16-2009, 11:24 PM
Haha, not really . . . he is also guilty in the eyes of the public. And considering the fact that he's out of the game and not in legal trouble, that's really the only relevant standard of guilt (because of HOF votes, legacy, etc.).

Again, that may not be fair (if he in fact did not use), but it is the reality of the situation.

He's guilty in the eyes of the public for the era he played in. As far as the HOF, it depends on if his name comes up in a report or failed drug test in two years. If not, I imagine he stands a good chance of making it.

philab
02-16-2009, 11:34 PM
He's guilty in the eyes of the public for the era he played in. As far as the HOF, it depends on if his name comes up in a report or failed drug test in two years. If not, I imagine he stands a good chance of making it.

He's guilty (again, in the eyes of the public) for more than just the era he played in. His increase in size, his 60+ HRs three times in four seasons, and his friendship with McGwire are factors also. There may be a perfectly legitimate, non-steroids reason for these things (as redwhitenblue is attempting to show), but in the eyes of the public, such things point to "user".

As for HOF, I wasn't intending to go into this, but I really doubt Sosa gets in -- at least in the first 5-10 years of his candidacy. McGwire's not even coming close, Palmeiro probably never will, and Bonds remains to be seen. I know these guys are proven (or quasi-proven) users, but like we've said before, Sosa gets lumped in with them. Evidence of steroid use has no direct connection to HOF votes -- only the media's perception matters and it is generally an unfavorable pereception right now.

Gannonfan12
02-16-2009, 11:37 PM
I believe he did, and it coincided with his HR spike in the mid-late 1990's. I believe nothing that comes out of Canseco's mouth, but just looking at his performance and physique change over such a short period of time there is no doubt that he did. Roids were berry berry good to him...

Pitty'09
02-17-2009, 02:35 AM
He didn't, he made a prewritten statement answering their questions in his first language. Why should he attempt to answer questions in his second language?

its pretty clear why he did it Because once he is asked in front of congress, they r asked under oath.

Pitty'09
02-17-2009, 02:38 AM
I didn't respond in italics, but at least you say you are basing it off opinion, but admit you have no proof, which I do respect. The thing that bugs me about this is people are just 100% sure he did it, but when they're asked to clarify they say stupid crap, like well he used a cork, or he hit 60 homeruns for 3 of 4 years. I want to see his name in a report or something that will be taken seriously before I suspect the guy.

of course u do. Ur a cubs fan being a homer. But thats cool, cause Im a Giant's fan.:D

Ron!n
02-17-2009, 07:52 AM
its pretty clear why he did it Because once he is asked in front of congress, they r asked under oath.

The statement was also sworn in, meaning if he lies in it he commits perjury

And to those saying why wont anyone sign Sammy well same reason theyre not signing Pedro.
Hes old, hasnt played in over a year and when he played his numbers were declining.

The Schmooze
02-17-2009, 08:53 AM
The statement was also sworn in, meaning if he lies in it he commits perjury

And to those saying why wont anyone sign Sammy well same reason theyre not signing Pedro.
Hes old, hasnt played in over a year and when he played his numbers were declining.

in '07 he had +20 HRs and almost 100 RBIs...off the bench...so I dont buy that for a second. He could have been a very servicable bat off the bench for any number of teams.

Ron!n
02-17-2009, 08:56 AM
So youre saying they didnt sign him because he did PED's?
If they didnt sign him because of his decline then it would be because of his name being linked with PED's without any evidence. Which is what weve been arguing in another thread.
Hes been linked to PED's and that affected him alot.
Or does not signing him automatically mean he did them?

The Schmooze
02-17-2009, 09:09 AM
So youre saying they didnt sign him because he did PED's?
If they didnt sign him because of his decline then it would be because of his name being linked with PED's without any evidence. Which is what weve been arguing in another thread.
Hes been linked to PED's and that affected him alot.
Or does not signing him automatically mean he did them?

Im just saying alot of teams dont want to sign accused ex-juiceheads on their team. Sammy isnt the only one, and maybe its not fair to him and he was clean, but my observations point otherwise.

thefeckcampaign
02-17-2009, 09:36 AM
60 HRs was broken by one man 3 times in 4 years which was done 2 times in over 65 years by 2 different men before that. The only other 2 men to have done it later as well have been accused of using steroids. It all adds up to me.

The Schmooze
02-17-2009, 09:39 AM
60 HRs was broken by one man 3 times in 4 years which was done 2 times in over 65 years by 2 different men before that. The only other 2 men to have done it later as well have been accused of using steroids. It all adds up to me.

maybe if he didnt make that horrible excuse in front of Congress, and wasnt already a cheater, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

thefeckcampaign
02-17-2009, 10:02 AM
maybe if he didnt make that horrible excuse in front of Congress, and wasnt already a cheater, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.Then you are saying we saw the greatest HR hitter ever if that stuff didn't happen. I seriously doubt it. No one is THAT dominating. Especially in this era.

poodski
02-17-2009, 10:32 AM
For the sake of this site's integrity...I sure hope the homer Cubs fan who started this thread is the only no vote. Sammy is the 2nd most roided up freak/average baseball there is besides McGwire. He even admitted it by "forgetting" how to speak English. As far as his #'s...how anyone can say there was never an increase or drop off in his #'s that would indicate Steroids is beyond me. Shockingly the dropoff is the exact same time as they started testing :rolleyes: Sammy was the worst of all. He juiced and corked. This is one of most naive/homer threads in the history of this site.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml

I ll tell you what. You go in front of another countries government without an interpreter. Even if you speak the language well do you really want to run the risk of being in trouble for not completely understanding the question?

Also the corked bat things is blown way way out of proportion. Way.

nstachowski
02-17-2009, 10:50 AM
are you serious no size difference.
Look for yourself when he was on the sox than look when he was with the cubs. http://www.j-fam.org/rjjracin/PC1/Sosa_Donruss_RC.JPG LOL!

Great picture to compare him to. He was definately juicing

redwhitenblue
02-17-2009, 07:50 PM
in '07 he had +20 HRs and almost 100 RBIs...off the bench...so I dont buy that for a second. He could have been a very servicable bat off the bench for any number of teams.
You act as if RBI's are a stat any player should be judged on.
Great picture to compare him to. He was definately juicing
I bet I can find a picture of him when he was 16, then you'd REALLY think he was.

That picture is from when he was 21 years old.

durtee
02-17-2009, 08:09 PM
Same with guys like Roberts, Sanchez and Vina. This is where it gets difficult cause it shows that anyone playing could be taking steroids, so do we suspect everyone is taking them?

Yes!! We should suspect every player that has played in that era of possibly using steroids or some sort of banned substance. Normally I am all for the innocent til proven guilty, but in this case how can any of us as fans not suspect everyone of being guilty. Especially when there is so many things pointing to these players as being guilty. I realize that all the evidence against Sammy is circumstantial, but it's enough to create suspicion.

Also FTW I am not against keeping any of these guys out of the HOF. Bonds, Arod, Sammy etc... were great players and HOF caliber players without steroids, so that should not keep them out of the HOF. If it was in a different era, then maybe there would be an argument, but if you keep those guys out of the HOF, then all of the players from the steroid era should be kept out.

The Schmooze
02-17-2009, 09:20 PM
You act as if RBI's are a stat any player should be judged on.

dude...thats not the point. Guy had a great year off the bench. He was an extremely servicable player who NOBODY wanted to touch

redwhitenblue
02-17-2009, 09:29 PM
dude...thats not the point. Guy had a great year off the bench. He was an extremely servicable player who NOBODY wanted to touch
You're judging him on his RBI's, it is the point, it's a horribly misrepresenteted thing in general.

Try things Sosa had control over like his bad OBP.

By the way, can you stop with the flat out inaccuracies such as "a great year off the bench"

He came off the bench in 11 games, he started 103. He was NOT a bench player or a PH (11 PH PA's all year)

Seriously, if you're going to write stuff, look it up first.

Cubsrule
02-17-2009, 09:51 PM
Yes!! We should suspect every player that has played in that era of possibly using steroids or some sort of banned substance.

So when does that era end or when did it end. A-rod failed a test in 2003, so by that guys like Pujols, Berkman, and Cabrera all played in the era. I refuse to suspect anyone of taking anything without evidence.


Normally I am all for the innocent til proven guilty, but in this case how can any of us as fans not suspect everyone of being guilty. Especially when there is so many things pointing to these players as being guilty. I realize that all the evidence against Sammy is circumstantial, but it's enough to create suspicion.

True, but if nothing ever comes out does he still get in the HOF.


Also FTW I am not against keeping any of these guys out of the HOF. Bonds, Arod, Sammy etc... were great players and HOF caliber players without steroids, so that should not keep them out of the HOF. If it was in a different era, then maybe there would be an argument, but if you keep those guys out of the HOF, then all of the players from the steroid era should be kept out.

You should have inserted Mcgwire instead of Sosa, Sosa has no evidence against him. That's not to say it will or won't change, but as of today with no evidence would you put him in the HOF?

durtee
02-17-2009, 10:09 PM
[QUOTE]So when does that era end or when did it end. A-rod failed a test in 2003, so by that guys like Pujols, Berkman, and Cabrera all played in the era. I refuse to suspect anyone of taking anything without evidence.

I guess that really just depends on how each person looks at it. I believe that we are now on the outside of that era. Of course there are still going to be a guy here or there that gets busted for something that is banned, but the new testing that they have in place should filter out a lot of guys. Newer guys like Pedroia and Longoria definitely don't deserve to be linked with these guys, because they came up while there was testing.


True, but if nothing ever comes out does he still get in the HOF.

Even if it comes out that he did take a banned substance then he should still get in. Like I said the era is completely tainted because of all of these guys who did take it, so you can't just keep a few guys out without keeping everyone out. Not to mention at least 100 more players that we don't even know about yet.




You should have inserted Mcgwire instead of Sosa, Sosa has no evidence against him. That's not to say it will or won't change, but as of today with no evidence would you put him in the HOF?

Either way they should both be in the HOF. I believe that steroids definitely help the player taking them...otherwise why would they take them? But with that said, I don't think it takes an average player and turns him into a HOFer. I read an article prompted by a radio station (sorry can't find a link to the one I read) that basically broke down how HR's affected certain players. I believe that Bonds was the example in the article and it said that it added 8-12 HR's per year to a guy like Bonds. Basically it was all the same, but each player was affected differently based off the type of player that he is. Of course it won't take a guy like Nook Logan and turn him into a 50 HR guy.

DewsSox79
02-18-2009, 04:57 AM
So when does that era end or when did it end. A-rod failed a test in 2003, so by that guys like Pujols, Berkman, and Cabrera all played in the era. I refuse to suspect anyone of taking anything without evidence.



True, but if nothing ever comes out does he still get in the HOF.



You should have inserted Mcgwire instead of Sosa, Sosa has no evidence against him. That's not to say it will or won't change, but as of today with no evidence would you put him in the HOF?

He will go into the HOF with all his memorobilia and of course a corked bat( but it was a mistake I know, he didnt mean it)

thefeckcampaign
02-18-2009, 06:20 AM
True, but if nothing ever comes out does he still get in the HOF.No, not in this era. With everyone lying and evidence slowly coming out on everyone I would rather use the "wait & see" attitude. I really don't see how anyone can do what he did 3 times in 4 years (did I say this already?) what couldn't be done except by 2 men once each in 65 tears previous. This just seems outrageous. It makes me think he was the greatest living HR hitter that I ever would have seen and my heart tells me that can't be true. Something just doesn't seem right here. Though his numbers say so I don't see him "better" than Mickey Mantle or Mike Schmidt or Jim Rice even.

Matt-the-great
02-18-2009, 06:59 AM
Look at who Voted for what....

it is ****ing hilarious to see how many Cubs fans voted "NO" and "Undecided"

of course he probably took roids, but who really cares? nearly every major home-run hitter of that Era took them and most other players probably dabbled with them.

no one cares anymore, it was the steroid era.

a shameful era? certainly, yes....but nevertheless it was a stage in the fine history of baseball....

thefeckcampaign
02-18-2009, 09:37 AM
no one cares anymore, it was the steroid era.

a shameful era? certainly, yes....but nevertheless it was a stage in the fine history of baseball....I care. I don't like longest running most consistent American sports history ****ed with.

The Schmooze
02-18-2009, 09:54 AM
You're judging him on his RBI's, it is the point, it's a horribly misrepresenteted thing in general.

Try things Sosa had control over like his bad OBP.

By the way, can you stop with the flat out inaccuracies such as "a great year off the bench"

He came off the bench in 11 games, he started 103. He was NOT a bench player or a PH (11 PH PA's all year)

Seriously, if you're going to write stuff, look it up first.

bench player.......part-time player....same thing. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression

Point is, why would anyone pick him up?

poodski
02-18-2009, 10:05 AM
Look at who Voted for what....

it is ****ing hilarious to see how many Cubs fans voted "NO" and "Undecided"

of course he probably took roids, but who really cares? nearly every major home-run hitter of that Era took them and most other players probably dabbled with them.

no one cares anymore, it was the steroid era.

a shameful era? certainly, yes....but nevertheless it was a stage in the fine history of baseball....

Why is it "****ing hilariuos"? Thats just the way it is. You ask about Frank Thomas or someone like that and White Sox fans will say no. People arent going to believe what they dont want to. I dont believe Sammy took them because well he has never been connected and his power didnt just come out of nowhere and he didnt stay on long. There are a lot of indications that he didnt, really the only indication that he did is the "era" thats about it.

I bet you would defend someone like say Roy Halladay to the death. Am I right? Cuz I would put a pay check on the line that he took steroids. Its kinda odd he was never hurt til 2004... then was out for a lot of two years. Ironic or coming off the juice? I guess its up to you to decide.

Every single player that played during this time is basically guilty. Except for Craig Counsell.

Luxy312
02-18-2009, 10:45 AM
As a Chicagoan, and if I had a choice to bet "yes" or "no", I would definitely say yes. To compare Sammy Sosa to guys like Bonds, McGuire, or even Frank Thomas is pretty ridiculous. Those guys are between 2-6 inches taller and 20-60 pounds heavier at their natural weight. While those other guys had some pretty good seasons as well, their numbers don't look quite like the bell curve that Sammy's do. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Take the top-5 active players in home runs right now. Sammy has the distinction of having the lowest OBP, lowest SLG, and lowest AVG for his career. Right now, I think it would be a long time before the HOF would even consider "Corky" Sosa for the honor.

Old Sweater
02-18-2009, 10:51 AM
I voted undecided. If someone put a gun up to my head and asked me the same question I'd say the same thing because like all other fans, I don't know for sure and except for the health risks the players take, I don't give a **** until MLB makes an honest effort to stop PED's.

redwhitenblue
02-18-2009, 10:58 AM
No, not in this era. With everyone lying and evidence slowly coming out on everyone I would rather use the "wait & see" attitude. I really don't see how anyone can do what he did 3 times in 4 years (did I say this already?) what couldn't be done except by 2 men once each in 65 tears previous. This just seems outrageous. It makes me think he was the greatest living HR hitter that I ever would have seen and my heart tells me that can't be true. Something just doesn't seem right here. Though his numbers say so I don't see him "better" than Mickey Mantle or Mike Schmidt or Jim Rice even.
What numbers say he's better than those guys?

Hr's, HR's only, some of you are acting like his HR's make him one of the best hitters around when I've already said his career numbers aren't that good. His OBP is merely okay and his OPS isn't close to the best. He's the most prolific "slugger" who wasn't a great hitter that I can ever remember, everyone else putting up HR numbers like him was doing a better job in other hitting categories.

poodski
02-18-2009, 11:06 AM
What numbers say he's better than those guys?

Hr's, HR's only, some of you are acting like his HR's make him one of the best hitters around when I've already said his career numbers aren't that good. His OBP is merely okay and his OPS isn't close to the best. He's the most prolific "slugger" who wasn't a great hitter that I can ever remember, everyone else putting up HR numbers like him was doing a better job in other hitting categories.

Oh yeah Sammy did two things well. Hit HRs and run to RF. he never had the plate discipline that Bonds or McGwire had.

of people with more than 445 HRs only Ernie Banks has a lower OPS+... we suck.

Luxy312
02-18-2009, 08:24 PM
What numbers say he's better than those guys?

Hr's, HR's only, some of you are acting like his HR's make him one of the best hitters around when I've already said his career numbers aren't that good. His OBP is merely okay and his OPS isn't close to the best. He's the most prolific "slugger" who wasn't a great hitter that I can ever remember, everyone else putting up HR numbers like him was doing a better job in other hitting categories.

He did do a better job in one other category. Striking out.:rolleyes::rolleyes: