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View Full Version : Phil Jackson: Most overrated coach in NBA history?



BowDown
02-14-2009, 02:34 AM
Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 02:37 AM
As a coach you need good players to win. That's one element of becoming a great coach, but another element is you have to know how to coach them, and Phil knows how to coach them.

TheBlackHole
02-14-2009, 02:38 AM
Regardless, 9 rings is still hard to accomplish.

RISE UP
02-14-2009, 02:51 AM
He's the best ever. Name one other coach who didn't win without a star or stars?? none

NBNature3
02-14-2009, 02:53 AM
This is a ridiculous thread. Phil Jackson is a great coach for you to bring up the years that MJ was gone is a cop out. Those Bulls teams were still playoff teams and I think 1 of those teams would have been in the NBA Eastern Conference finals if it weren't for Hue Hollins blowing a call. You can't deny 9 rings out of 11 finals appearances player.

Skin&Bones
02-14-2009, 02:53 AM
Its one thing to have great players on your team. Its also another thing to mesh all those great players together to play in chemistry, and have the right blueprint to make them succeed and to make them stay focused, especially egoistic self centered superstars. And to have them play together for years even if huge rifts in the locker room exist.

THATS one hell of a accomplishment for a coach. And remember bryant and shaq can't get that championship, even to the NBA Finals until Phil comes in with the right plan in mind.

Lakers4ItAll
02-14-2009, 02:54 AM
I've always thought Phil was over rated

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 02:57 AM
I've always thought Phil was over rated

Really? I definitely thought a Laker fan would say other wise haha.

But I mean you probably just credit the players more, which is fine.

But read my previous post it explains why I don't really think he is overrated.

KobeIs
02-14-2009, 02:57 AM
I know what ur saying but look at Red Auerbach. He had a great team.

But honestly, I never understood the greatness of a coach. If you got a good team, u will be considered a good coach and vice versa

BowDown
02-14-2009, 02:58 AM
Really? I definitely thought a Laker fan would say other wise haha.

But I mean you probably just credit the players more, which is fine.

But read my previous post it explains why I don't really think he is overrated.

Yes.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 02:59 AM
I know what ur saying but look at Red Auerbach. He had a great team.

But honestly, I never understood the greatness of a coach. If you got a good team, u will be considered a good coach and vice versa

Exactly.

shortlunatic
02-14-2009, 02:59 AM
As a coach you need good players to win. That's one element of becoming a great coach, but another element is you have to know how to coach them, and Phil knows how to coach them.

Exactly. Name one team that one a championship in any sport that won with only descent players. Just because you have stars doesnt mean your gonna win. I honestly think tho, that if he hadnt coached the bulls or the lakers, he would probably have about half the titles he has now

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:00 AM
Exactly. Name one team that one a championship in any sport that won with only descent players. Just because you have stars doesnt mean your gonna win. I honestly think tho, that if he hadnt coached the bulls or the lakers, he would probably have about half the titles he has now

I would say ZERO rings.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 03:02 AM
Exactly. Name one team that one a championship in any sport that won with only descent players. Just because you have stars doesnt mean your gonna win. I honestly think tho, that if he hadnt coached the bulls or the lakers, he would probably have about half the titles he has now

Yeah there comes a point where coaches can only get you so far, but that final shot in a playoff series game has nothing to do with a coach. (Jordan)

madiaz3
02-14-2009, 03:04 AM
If talented players was all that was really needed, look at the Knicks era of marbury crawford qrich randolph curry with isiah and now the lesser talent with isiah

some coaches handle headcases better than others or just know how to manage egos

leoscotch
02-14-2009, 03:04 AM
There have several coaches that guided decent teams to the championship
Rudy T with the Rockets in 94 and in 95.
They just had one all star in Hakeem and some very good role players. Played against some tough teams in , Phoenix, San Antonio, New York and Utah.

How bout Dick Motta, 78 Bullets with Unseld and Michael Kupchak, thats right Kupchak!!!
How bout Lenny Wilkens( Possibly the BESt coach ever!),79 sonics with Jack Sigma & DJ
How bout Jack Ramsay 77 blazers with Bill Walton

Skin&Bones
02-14-2009, 03:09 AM
There have several coaches that guided decent teams to the championship
Rudy T with the Rockets in 94 and in 95.
They just had one all star in Hakeem and some very good role players. Played against some tough teams in , Phoenix, San Antonio, New York and Utah.

How bout Dick Motta, 78 Bullets with Unseld and Michael Kupchak, thats right Kupchak!!!
How bout Lenny Wilkens( Possibly the BESt coach ever!),79 sonics with Jack Sigma & DJ
How bout Jack Ramsay 77 blazers with Bill Walton

Yea some very good ROLE players like drexler? Dude that guys a HALL OF FAMER! That is not a role player. Are you kidding me?

The rest did not have longevity to put their teams on top. So that argument is flawed compare to what we are talking about.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 03:10 AM
There have several coaches that guided decent teams to the championship
Rudy T with the Rockets in 94 and in 95.
They just had one all star in Hakeem and some very good role players. Played against some tough teams in , Phoenix, San Antonio, New York and Utah.

How bout Dick Motta, 78 Bullets with Unseld and Michael Kupchak, thats right Kupchak!!!
How bout Lenny Wilkens( Possibly the BESt coach ever!),79 sonics with Jack Sigma & DJ
How bout Jack Ramsay 77 blazers with Bill Walton

Well your going to have a few.

Skin&Bones
02-14-2009, 03:12 AM
If talented players was all that was really needed, look at the Knicks era of marbury crawford qrich randolph curry with isiah and now the lesser talent with isiah

some coaches handle headcases better than others or just know how to manage egos

Exactly. or even that portland team of 2000. The strength of Phil Jackson relies on keeping his players on focus in winning it all not just a year but at strings. The formula works well.

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:15 AM
So here's a question...

If you're a team owner and just bought an expansion team in 2010, call them the Idaho Chuckers, and you have a set amount to spend on personnel.

Do you spend it on guys like Wade, James or Bosh and get a coach like Fratello, or do you tie up your budget on Jackson and sign guys like Wilcox and Kapono?

So if he's a "great" coach, who wins the Finals first, Jackson or Fratello?

mlisica19
02-14-2009, 03:23 AM
strong argument but phil was a good coach in one area not many coaches can do at all. The mental side of the game, he knew how to bring the best out in all his players especially the rebels like Denis Rodman. He knew how to use kobe, a "non team" player the ways to win games thought un winnable. And plus the only reason he hasnt shown more championships with the lakers is cuz kobe is a non team player who plays for himself. If he coach the cavs i bet they win the title first year as of now.

but good opinion

lakerboy
02-14-2009, 03:24 AM
Overrated?
Phil has 9 championship rings.
When Jordan "retired" to play baseball, Phil led Pippen and the Bulls to 55 wins.

55 wins!!!!!!!!

and he only has ONE Coach of the Year award.

UNDERRATED in my opinion.

Hoopsadvocate
02-14-2009, 03:24 AM
He's the best ever. Name one other coach who didn't win without a star or stars?? none

Larry Brown- Detroit Pistons

Red Hotzman- Knicks

Both had no "stars" good players and great teamwork backed by great coaching won them titles. No Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Magic type players. Which is what i think the poster means, Phil always plays with a stacked deck pretty hard to fail when ur delt amazing cards. Yes i give him all the credit in the world for utulizing his players well and getting the championships but again, hes never built a team up never made/developed a great team and didn't go through some of the trials and tribulations like some other coaches have to make there teams winners. A good example is the Spurs Greg Popavich, Duncan was projected to be great yes but Tony Parker? Manu Ginobili? now Roger Mason? This guy is a great coach because he coaches his players to become great and helps them develop there strengths. Cause if you argue no Phil is simply the greatest then if a team like the celtics win 2-3 more championships with there current setup is Doc Rivers considered one too?? even though with other teams hes barley managed to scratch the playoffs?? Up to you not trying to say Phil is a bad coach but in a way i agree with the original post in that he is a bit overrated.

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:28 AM
Overrated?
Phil has 9 championship rings.
When Jordan "retired" to play baseball, Phil led Pippen and the Bulls to 55 wins.

55 wins!!!!!!!!

and he only has ONE Coach of the Year award.

UNDERRATED in my opinion.

I think that's because people know the real truth about his coaching...

He never really coached anything. Tex Winter coached the Triangle offense to the Bulls then Phil brought him over to LA to do the same.

Phil uses his zen crap on players to find piece and crap like that. He is not the best coach.

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:29 AM
Larry Brown- Detroit Pistons

Red Hotzman- Knicks

Both had no "stars" good players and great teamwork backed by great coaching won them titles. No Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Magic type players. Which is what i think the poster means, Phil always plays with a stacked deck pretty hard to fail when ur delt amazing cards. Yes i give him all the credit in the world for utulizing his players well and getting the championships but again, hes never built a team up never made/developed a great team and didn't go through some of the trials and tribulations like some other coaches have to make there teams winners. A good example is the Spurs Greg Popavich, Duncan was projected to be great yes but Tony Parker? Manu Ginobili? now Roger Mason? This guy is a great coach because he coaches his players to become great and helps them develop there strengths. Cause if you argue no Phil is simply the greatest then if a team like the celtics win 2-3 more championships with there current setup is Doc Rivers considered one too?? even though with other teams hes barley managed to scratch the playoffs?? Up to you not trying to say Phil is a bad coach but in a way i agree with the original post in that he is a bit overrated.


Well said and that's exactly what I'm talking about!

:clap::clap::clap:

As a coach, part of your role is player development. What rookies did he ever develop?

soundjunkies2
02-14-2009, 03:30 AM
If he's overrated,then so is red auerbach.

Kabowdos
02-14-2009, 03:34 AM
First you forgot when MJ left the Bulls they still won 55 games and made the playoffs as a top four seed. That shows something.

There is no argument for the greatness of Phil Jackson. Maybe Kobe and MJ needed him more than you think. The system is everything.

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:36 AM
First you forgot when MJ left the Bulls they still won 55 games and made the playoffs as a top four seed. That shows something.

There is no argument for the greatness of Phil Jackson. Maybe Kobe and MJ needed him more than you think. The system is everything.

The system was developed and coached by Tex Winter, not Jackson.

ElMarroAfamado
02-14-2009, 03:37 AM
this is the most blatant act of hating i have ever encountered on this forum

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:38 AM
this is the most blatant act of hating i have ever encountered on this forum

I'm not hating. I just believe Phil is overrated and would like someone to show me otherwise. If not... the hippie is overrated!

Skin&Bones
02-14-2009, 03:42 AM
To have longevity of a great career as a coach, you need BALANCE on coaching and your players. In the scenario that was given. Both of the situation will not succeed. You need each other. Foremost on a starting franchise you cannot succeed with one of a two. Thats why dynasties or great teams are molded, not created in one year.

Superstar Players need a Great Coach just as Great Coach need his superstar players.

Red Auerbach is overrated then. So is Pat Riley. So is Rudy T. Heck all of them are. So this is pointless.

Hoopsadvocate
02-14-2009, 03:44 AM
this is the most blatant act of hating i have ever encountered on this forum

Its hating because someone doesn't agree with you? Now that i hate hes giving legitamate reasons why he doesnt believe Phil is "greatest ever" not saying he sucks as a coach just that hes not "that" great. Good like Dominique Wilkins good(which is pretty damn good don't get it twisted) but not MJ good.

BowDown
02-14-2009, 03:45 AM
Red, Pat and Rudy at least did some player development because the players that helped them win, most came in as rookies or were inexperienced in the league. Jackson got seasoned superstar vets.

Hoopsadvocate
02-14-2009, 03:46 AM
To have longevity of a great career as a coach, you need BALANCE on coaching and your players. In the scenario that was given. Both of the situation will not succeed. You need each other. Foremost on a starting franchise you cannot succeed with one of a two. Thats why dynasties or great teams are molded, not created in one year.

Superstar Players need a Great Coach just as Great Coach need his superstar players.

Red Auerbach is overrated then. So is Pat Riley. So is Rudy T. Heck all of them are. So this is pointless.

All of them?? a couple people pointed out a couple coaches that didnt have amazing stars on there teams and if they are its because there coach developed them into it so there is a point to it think about it a little. I agree with you for those coaches u listed btw.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 03:53 AM
this is the most blatant act of hating i have ever encountered on this forum

The guy who started the thread has a Bears avatar. I am guessing he is more then anything imposing a argument. Is that not what we are intended to do at times on this website?

Skin&Bones
02-14-2009, 03:53 AM
All of them?? a couple people pointed out a couple coaches that didnt have amazing stars on there teams and if they are its because there coach developed them into it so there is a point to it think about it a little. I agree with you for those coaches u listed btw.

My bad about all of them. Just saying all this coaches who had strings of success should be overrated if Phil is overrated. Which in my opinion is absurd. There is some coaches that are good at developing and some that knows how to relegate already great superstars. And mostly the one relegating great superstars are the one getting championships because they know how to take teams to the highest level.

Look at Belichick(i don't know if i get the spelling right) of New England Patriots.

G-Funk
02-14-2009, 03:54 AM
he's about to win 10 tittles with 3 different players

Teeboy1487
02-14-2009, 03:55 AM
9 rings and overrated is having a hard time meshing with me. Fail :sigh:

G-Funk
02-14-2009, 04:09 AM
strong argument but phil was a good coach in one area not many coaches can do at all. The mental side of the game, he knew how to bring the best out in all his players especially the rebels like Denis Rodman. He knew how to use kobe, a "non team" player the ways to win games thought un winnable. And plus the only reason he hasnt shown more championships with the lakers is cuz kobe is a non team player who plays for himself. If he coach the cavs i bet they win the title first year as of now.

but good opinion

:puke:

ARMIN12NBA
02-14-2009, 04:11 AM
Well said and that's exactly what I'm talking about!

:clap::clap::clap:

As a coach, part of your role is player development. What rookies did he ever develop?

Andrew Bynum, Jordan Farmar, Sasha Vujacic, Toni Kukoc, etc.

G-Funk
02-14-2009, 04:19 AM
Andrew Bynum, Jordan Farmar, Sasha Vujacic, Toni Kukoc, etc.

You can even add Kobe to that list!



The system was developed and coached by Tex Winter, not Jackson.

It was developed by Tex but perfected by Phil.

ARMIN12NBA
02-14-2009, 04:31 AM
You can even add Kobe to that list!




It was developed by Tex but perfected by Phil.

Kobe was already somewhat accomplished before Phil came. He had a few years and an all-star team under his belt before Phil came to Los Angeles.

The second statement is true. Phil has added a few tweaks of his own although under the supervision of Winter. Sam Barry originated the triangle then Winter adopted it from Barry and then Jackson has worked with Winter on the triangle.

JayAllDay
02-14-2009, 04:31 AM
Phil Jackson Joe Torre comparison might be in order...

G-Funk
02-14-2009, 04:40 AM
Kobe was already somewhat accomplished before Phil came. He had a few years and an all-star team under his belt before Phil came to Los Angeles.

The second statement is true. Phil has added a few tweaks of his own although under the supervision of Winter. Sam Barry originated the triangle then Winter adopted it from Barry and then Jackson has worked with Winter on the triangle.

Kobe was really immature, it was Phil who helped him grow up as a player and a leader. I remember He used to get on Kobes *** for showboating so much. So yes Kobe had the talent but Phil helped him grow up as a player.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 04:45 AM
Kobe was really immature, it wa Phil who helped him grow up as a player and a leader. I remember He used to get on Kobes *** for showboating so much. So yes Kobe had the talent but Phil helped him grow up as a player.

Yeah I agree. Kobe still had some issues with his maturity.

ARMIN12NBA
02-14-2009, 04:51 AM
Kobe was really immature, it wa Phil who helped him grow up as a player and a leader. I remember He used to get on Kobes *** for showboating so much. So yes Kobe had the talent but Phil helped him grow up as a player.

But the guy clearly asked of what "rookies" Phil Jackson ever developed. Kobe is not one of them.

abe_froman
02-14-2009, 04:53 AM
But the guy clearly asked of what "rookies" Phil Jackson ever developed. Kobe is not one of them.

i didnt know that kobe at 18 is exactly as good as kobe now:rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
02-14-2009, 05:01 AM
i didnt know that kobe at 18 is exactly as good as kobe now:rolleyes:

He is not. I never said that either. The guy asked a question. The question was asking of what rookies Phil Jackson developed. Phil Jackson did not develop Kobe as a rookie...seeing as Jackson was the coach of the Chicago Bulls when Kobe was a rookie. Jackson did not even coach Bryant until Bryant's fourth season in the NBA.

So...yah. I have no idea what you are trying to imply right here. Unless you believe Jackson coached Bryant as a rookie, which I would then proceed to vehemently deny.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
02-14-2009, 05:01 AM
But the guy clearly asked of what "rookies" Phil Jackson ever developed. Kobe is not one of them.

True.

abe_froman
02-14-2009, 05:05 AM
He is not. I never said that either. The guy asked a question. The question was asking of what rookies Phil Jackson developed. Phil Jackson did not develop Kobe as a rookie...seeing as Jackson was the coach of the Chicago Bulls when Kobe was a rookie. Jackson did not even coach Bryant until Bryant's fourth season in the NBA.

So...yah. I have no idea what you are trying to imply right here. Unless you believe Jackson coached Bryant as a rookie, which I would then proceed to vehemently deny.

not as a rookie..but there was a marked improvement from before phil going there to after,ytou'd have to admit(well maybe not you specifically)

G-Funk
02-14-2009, 05:08 AM
I'm not hating. I just believe Phil is overrated and would like someone to show me otherwise. If not... the hippie is overrated!




1.Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

2.He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

3.I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

4.Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

5.I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.




1. You do need great players to win rings no doubt about that! but their is another 46 top 50 NBA players of all time and some of those couldn't win it all. Most noticable Malone, Ewin, Stockton, you can argue that Malone and Stockton were the best to play at their positions but still couldn't win it. Look at D'antoni, he had all the talent in the world even Porter if you compare their players to the Lakers they are better than ours at every position with the exception of Kobe. Back to D'antoni, If he would have won a ring would you be saying that the only reason he did so was because he had a 2 time MVP, 6th man, Most improved player and All-stars Amare and Marion?

2. He took over a talented but troubled Lakers team and immediately produced results. In his first year in L.A., the Lakers went 67-15 during the regular season to top the league.

3.Most critics of the triangle offense cite its high level of difficulty and longer-than-average learning process. It takes 2-3 years to learn the triange offense, he doesn't give the ball to players and hope that they win. He also has created a lot of memorable buzzer beaters[plays].

4. When Jordan left Phil and Pippen took the Bulls to 55 wins, that's pretty good. When Shaq left, Phil also left and came back after the Lakers missed the playoffs to coach Kobe, Smush, Walton, Lamar, Kwame and Cook. He helped carry the team to the playoffs and took the number 1 seed Suns to 7 games with the same team. That team was terrible, and he's developed guys like Bynum, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf, etc. He also was able to get something out of Odom, who before the Celtics series had a sensational year. After Bynum went down, the Lakers got Gasol at the break, and Jackson was able to integrate him seamlessly. The Lakers finished first in the West and went 12-3 in the Western Conference, with Jordan Farmar, Sasha Vujacic, and Vladmir Radmanovic playing big time minutes.


5. You should wonder that about every coach for example, Gregg Popovich
what would he do with the Grizzlies or Kings? that should apply to every coach not just Phil.

ARMIN12NBA
02-14-2009, 05:11 AM
not as a rookie..but there was a marked improvement from before phil going there to after,ytou'd have to admit(well maybe not you specifically)

Of course Bryant improved. Like I said, I was answering the question asked! Why would I go on some tangent on players that had nothing to do with the question asked? Kobe Bryant did improve. Of course. He was 21 years old and the Lakers traded and got rid of their two all-star guards to accommodate Bryant and give him more playing time. He was gaining experience, trust, playing time, etc.

I will repeat: The question was asked to whether Jackson has ever developed rookies as the person asking the question was using the idea that Jackson did not develop rookies as an argument against Phil. I simply answered the question directly. The fact remains that Jackson did not help develop a "rookie" Bryant.

abe_froman
02-14-2009, 05:14 AM
Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.

no team but the 79 sonics have won without at least 1 future hofer(which even that may change this year,so lets keep that in mind)

he didnt call it quits from chicago,he was forced out.he had clashes with the gm at the time and an ultimatum was put forth to the owner to choose sides(every bulls fan knows this)

he rode into the playoffs on the back of pippen(and who else??),pippen was good but not enough to lead a championship team(see portland years later for this to)

again,name a team thats won without a star,before calling him out as can only win because of them(why not daley,reiley,pop,red??)

promixxer
02-14-2009, 05:38 AM
Yeah there comes a point where coaches can only get you so far, but that final shot in a playoff series game has nothing to do with a coach. (Jordan)


That final shot had everything to do with the Coach. It was jacksons offensive/defensive plan that entire game that got them to that point. you can't just a series on one shot. you have to remember that there were a bunch of things that went on to get jordan to that point.

jackson knew and trusted jordan to earn his money or he could have called a time out and had rodman/luke/kerr take the last shot. I am sure jackson called that iso play for jordan.

Bishnoff
02-14-2009, 06:51 AM
Phil is a great coach. He has assembled some of the greatest teams of the last two decades and has known how to control their huge egos. He has an eye for talent and knows what players he wants and how to best utilise them. These are skills that very few coaches have. How anyone could say that it’s just dumb luck is beyond me.

Trust me, as a Suns fan I saw him make some great coaching moves in the 92-93 Finals. Phoenix was the better team but Chicago won another Championship thanks to MJ and Phil. His defensive sets stymied the Suns’ league best offense and made the series a non-event.

To those who say "look at 93-95" I say look at the team he assembled a year later: Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Longley, and Kukoc. To those who say “look at 05-07” I again say look at the team he has since assembled: Fisher, Kobe, Odom, Rad, Gasol, Bynum, Ariza, Farmar etc. Oh, and those seasons in between after he lost his stars? Nearly all teams made the playoffs. Enough said.

shortlunatic
02-14-2009, 07:16 AM
Larry Brown- Detroit Pistons

Red Hotzman- Knicks

Both had no "stars" good players and great teamwork backed by great coaching won them titles. No Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Magic type players. Which is what i think the poster means, Phil always plays with a stacked deck pretty hard to fail when ur delt amazing cards. Yes i give him all the credit in the world for utulizing his players well and getting the championships but again, hes never built a team up never made/developed a great team and didn't go through some of the trials and tribulations like some other coaches have to make there teams winners. A good example is the Spurs Greg Popavich, Duncan was projected to be great yes but Tony Parker? Manu Ginobili? now Roger Mason? This guy is a great coach because he coaches his players to become great and helps them develop there strengths. Cause if you argue no Phil is simply the greatest then if a team like the celtics win 2-3 more championships with there current setup is Doc Rivers considered one too?? even though with other teams hes barley managed to scratch the playoffs?? Up to you not trying to say Phil is a bad coach but in a way i agree with the original post in that he is a bit overrated.

You have a good point, but if he did such a great job, how come they dont have back to back championships?? they have been able to win it 3 times if I am not mistaken, but with the same cast all those years, what happened during each gap that didn't allow them to win??

promixxer
02-14-2009, 07:25 AM
Larry Brown- Detroit Pistons

Red Hotzman- Knicks

Both had no "stars" good players and great teamwork backed by great coaching won them titles. No Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Magic type players. Which is what i think the poster means, Phil always plays with a stacked deck pretty hard to fail when ur delt amazing cards. Yes i give him all the credit in the world for utulizing his players well and getting the championships but again, hes never built a team up never made/developed a great team and didn't go through some of the trials and tribulations like some other coaches have to make there teams winners. A good example is the Spurs Greg Popavich, Duncan was projected to be great yes but Tony Parker? Manu Ginobili? now Roger Mason? This guy is a great coach because he coaches his players to become great and helps them develop there strengths. Cause if you argue no Phil is simply the greatest then if a team like the celtics win 2-3 more championships with there current setup is Doc Rivers considered one too?? even though with other teams hes barley managed to scratch the playoffs?? Up to you not trying to say Phil is a bad coach but in a way i agree with the original post in that he is a bit overrated.



I will have to disagree with the larry brown team. His team actually produced 4 allstar the next year and they could not seal the deal.

Also Larry Brown could not take a team with All the talent in the world to a gold metal.

kbaxter34
02-14-2009, 08:47 AM
Any coach can win in the regular season with all-stars. It takes a great coach to take those all-stars and produce 9 championships. The playoffs are where great coaches get separated from good coaches. His playoff winning percentage is 70%. No coach has a better playoff winning percentage then him. The next closest is 64%. Even with all the HOFers Red had his playoff winning percentage was 59%. Coaching is what wins in the playoffs, not the players. Phill Jackson is a great coach. Maybe the G.O.A.T. and maybe not, but hes is definitely in the top 5 and is not overrated one bit.

thegreatone08
02-14-2009, 09:21 AM
But the guy clearly asked of what "rookies" Phil Jackson ever developed. Kobe is not one of them.

Andrew Bynum? Jordan Farmar?

BTownTeamsRKing
02-14-2009, 09:23 AM
if u think phil jackson is as good or better than Red, then hes overated.

Red was more than a coach. he built ONE franchise and stuck with them until his death.
jackson jumped from Jordan to Kobe and Shaq.

Red found Bill Russel when no one knew who he was. Red made the deals for McHale and Parrish. jackson just joined the team with stars.

even last year, Rivers outcoached him. Larry Brown outcaoched him in the LA DET finals.

mike_noodles
02-14-2009, 09:36 AM
No he is not over rated, this is a stupid thread and should be closed.

9 rings, how is that over rated?

JERSEYCOWBOYFAN
02-14-2009, 09:46 AM
I agreee ovvveerrrraaattteeddd......lets see he coached the cant do anything wrong in the nba's eyes chicago bulls with micheal jordan (christ u breathed on him the wrong way they called a foul) and then he goes to an organization like the lakers with a freakin all-star team intact...he in herits good teams and thats alll.......hey phil u wanna make a name for yourself.....go coach the knicks and bring a championship to n.y.....then i'lll praise u

JJ_JKidd
02-14-2009, 10:08 AM
Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.

Are you saying this just so you could get people's praise for Phil? I mean, you know all logical basketball fan, not counting you, knows that Phil is definitely NOT OVERRATED...

People here n PSD even cant define the word overrated... IMHO 95% of posters here equate ovverated the same as "HATEST BASKETBALL PLAYER/COACH."

The triangle offense can explain it to you. yes Tex Winter conceptualized it, but making it work on the court is another thing. Getting your players, including MJ, believe into it is even more challenging.

hyp21
02-14-2009, 10:35 AM
Phil Jackson- Coached perhaps 3-5 hof'ers; Red Auerbach coached about 10. Some guys just know how to pick em and know how to coach. Don't think he's overrated at all

JordansBulls
02-14-2009, 10:41 AM
If Phil Jackson is overrated then so is Red Aurebach and Pat Riley.

t mac and reed
02-14-2009, 10:52 AM
Rick Adleman highly overrated

DrDEADalready
02-14-2009, 10:56 AM
Coach sanders you mean?

K.F.C

pippsux
02-14-2009, 11:21 AM
Absolutely not. His job is to lead men as a team, to a championship. He went to LA where no one had success with Shaq/Kobe and in his first 3 seasons they win 3 titles. Same in Chicago. MJ had been putting up great numbers, but no ring. Enter the Zen master and the rest is history.

BowDown
02-14-2009, 11:37 AM
The guy who started the thread has a Bears avatar. I am guessing he is more then anything imposing a argument. Is that not what we are intended to do at times on this website?


What are you trying to say about Bears fans?! :)

showtym24
02-14-2009, 11:46 AM
Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.

Who can? You need great players to win championships buddy.

lakersrock
02-14-2009, 12:21 PM
How many titles did Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe win without him? 1.

....and the one included Wade and another great coach in Riley.

lakersrock
02-14-2009, 12:22 PM
If Phil Jackson is overrated then so is Red Aurebach and Pat Riley.

So is Gregg Pop. I mean, he has had Duncan, Manu, Parker and Robinson. I hate how people call him a good coach, yet Phil get the "he has stars" excuse. What the hell do you call Duncan and Robinson together then?

Nighthawk
02-14-2009, 12:48 PM
I think LOTS OF COACHES ARE OVERRATED!! Hell i Love Doc Rivers. Love em for his personality on and off the court. But i think any coach could have coached this team to a title. And the same goes for the Lakers with Kobe.SHAQ and Jordans and Pippens Bulls.

Kenny
02-14-2009, 01:07 PM
The Bulls won 55 games the year Jordan left for baseball... That shows you how good they were even without Jordan almost making a finals appearence, or how good Phil is.. You decide.

LA_Raiders
02-14-2009, 01:13 PM
lol

Atticus Finch
02-14-2009, 01:15 PM
I think LOTS OF COACHES ARE OVERRATED!! Hell i Love Doc Rivers. Love em for his personality on and off the court. But i think any coach could have coached this team to a title. And the same goes for the Lakers with Kobe.SHAQ and Jordans and Pippens Bulls.

Del Harris tried to get the Lakers to the championship with Kobe and Shaq. He couldn't, thats why Phil Jackson was hired.

hawksnation101
02-14-2009, 01:21 PM
To say Phil Jackson is the most overrated coach in this History of the game is just plain stupid. The guy has been in ThirteeN NBA finals winning ELEVEN of them and winning SIX straight! a .704 winning percentage has never had a team that's been lower then #3 in there division and averages 50 wins a season. Phil Jackson is the greatest coach (maybe 2nd greatest if you put Red in the top spot) in NBA history. period.

NHock1120
02-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Why would a GM and owner hire a coach hire a bad coach to coach good players. Put any other coach in the NBA at those times on the Lakers and I guarantee the outcomes will be different. Coaches coach the players that win championships. Phil knew HOW to win titles. HE made those teams great.

FreedomReigns
02-14-2009, 01:25 PM
As much as I can't stand Phil Jackson, to say he's overrated is foolish.

gatorbait
02-14-2009, 01:25 PM
hes a good coach, but hes also really lucky to have mj and pippen at the same time which is the greatest player ever and one of the greatest ever. and then he has kobe who might arguably go down as the second best ever next to jordan once his careers is done, and shaq one of the greatest, centers/players ever at the same time. he has been really lucky, if they didnt get gasol last year they wouldnt be nearly as good.

Teeboy1487
02-14-2009, 01:44 PM
How can a coach with nine rings be overated? That's the million dollar question.

LA412
02-14-2009, 02:08 PM
9 championships.......soon to be 10..........say no

Rocco007
02-14-2009, 02:21 PM
You need talent to win in the NBA...but it doesn't guarantee a ring..
For example...
When PJ first came to LA, Shaq and Kobe Had already played 3 seasons under Del Harris and couldn't win it all....
They win it all in PJ's 1st season at the helm....
When PJ came back to the LA, it was Kobe and remedial pieces..Not exactly a lock for a ring..They still have made it to the playoffs every season since..The one season that they didn't while Kobe was the leader..You guess it..In 2004-05 under Tomjanovich/Hamblen..
I won't mention the Bulls because they still haven't recovered and will forever be tainted by their decisions..
Slice it how ever you may..When its all said and done, PJ is going to be The NBA's Coaching Standard for all Time..

hawksnation101
02-14-2009, 02:22 PM
9 championships.......soon to be 10..........say no

11 going on twelve =] the two he won as a player count.

Kakaroach
02-14-2009, 02:24 PM
I hate the man for numerous reasons, but he is one of the best of all time, even if he did have the two best players of all time.

IndyRealist
02-14-2009, 02:34 PM
I greatly dislike Phil Jackson, and I'm not a fan of the Lakers. But he's one of the greatest coaches, if not THE greatest, coach of our era.

blom85
02-14-2009, 03:08 PM
I used to think so, but look at what he has done with the "Post SHAQ Lakers" he brought in all the right pieces to make an outstanding team, I think the Lakers will take the title back this year for sure, and if your gonna make the argument that his players win him titles and not his coaching then what does that say about who ever coached the Houston Rockets the last few years, they have had all the right pieces as well and can't even make it to the second round of the playoffs.

gatorbait
02-14-2009, 03:15 PM
um he didnt bring in anyone, the management brought those players in, popovich has 4 rings with duncan as being the only superstar, his other players are parker, hes good, ganobli, good player, and who else? he didnt win with jordan and pippen, or shaq and kobe. i dont think you people understand just what kind of players this guy had, he had 4 hall of famers on the same team at once, and still lost to the pistons. actually nvm i think duncan and robinson played one season together, so thats 2 stars at once for popovich one year.

Lakers09
02-14-2009, 03:28 PM
he was still hired to coach them its not like they picked out of a hat and said this coach will get to coach mike and kobe

Storch
02-14-2009, 03:40 PM
this is one of the dumbest threads ever. in order to win you need great players and great coaches.

_Supreme_
02-14-2009, 03:47 PM
If Phil Jackson never had these star studded teams and no Jordan, Shaq and Kobe he would likely have 0 championships as a coach, and he wouldn't even be mentioned among the top coaches.

During those years after Shaq left and before Pau Gasol arrived his coaching was flat out mediocre, and I've seen many games where his decisions were weird or plain wrong, leading to a lot of fans in PSD's local Laker forum complaining about it in games threads.

I don't know any other coach who gets rated as high as Jackson and who'se status is being questioned as much, so yeah that would qualify him as the most overrated ever.

lakersrock
02-14-2009, 03:51 PM
um he didnt bring in anyone, the management brought those players in, popovich has 4 rings with duncan as being the only superstar, his other players are parker, hes good, ganobli, good player, and who else? he didnt win with jordan and pippen, or shaq and kobe. i dont think you people understand just what kind of players this guy had, he had 4 hall of famers on the same team at once, and still lost to the pistons. actually nvm i think duncan and robinson played one season together, so thats 2 stars at once for popovich one year.

Tim Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play. He was also paired with a HOF C that had enough talent to score over 70 in a game. Now, he's paired with a Top 5 PG and a SG that can score from anywhere and run an offense. I'd say that is pretty damn good.

BTW, Duncan and Robinson played together from 97-03, not one year. :clap:

WadeCounty
02-14-2009, 03:53 PM
hes a great coach but i think he is SLIGHTLY overrated he had the best player for some of those title runs and also 2 of the best players for the other title runs so :S, the 2 coaches in my eyes who are great is the one that coaches the spurs (idk how to spell his name) and the coach for utah

Missing56&33
02-14-2009, 03:56 PM
blessed with talented players including some hall of famers its easy to win ball games. But he is what he is, a great coach

Rocco007
02-14-2009, 04:01 PM
um he didnt bring in anyone, the management brought those players in, popovich has 4 rings with duncan as being the only superstar, his other players are parker, hes good, ganobli, good player, and who else? he didnt win with jordan and pippen, or shaq and kobe. i dont think you people understand just what kind of players this guy had, he had 4 hall of famers on the same team at once, and still lost to the pistons. actually nvm i think duncan and robinson played one season together, so thats 2 stars at once for popovich one year.

You can't rewrite the rules just because its PJ...
I live in San Antonio and people here hated Popovich before Duncan arrived and joined Robinson. ..Worst coach/GM on the planet..4 rings later..He now is admirably known as Pop and is the toast of the town. He can't do no wrong..Parker and Ginoboli are just good? They're AllStars!
You're being a bit unfair about 2003-04..
I think we now know how much drama that team was dealing with..Shaq/Kobe/Colorado/kobe/KMalone/Kobe ETC..KMalone also gets hurt in the playoffs..That was the .4 post season that fans in San Antonio will never forget..That Piston team proved to be worthy of the victory with returns to the finals and a very good 3 to 4 yr run..

vikingbob2469
02-14-2009, 04:10 PM
I think Jackson is an ok coach, but nowhere in the same league as Red Auerbach, Jackson went to good teams, Red BUILT his, from scouting, coaching and being the GM.
No comparison, RED all the way is the best coach ever

lakers4sho
02-14-2009, 04:13 PM
If Phil Jackson never had these star studded teams and no Jordan, Shaq and Kobe he would likely have 0 championships as a coach, and he wouldn't even be mentioned among the top coaches.

During those years after Shaq left and before Pau Gasol arrived his coaching was flat out mediocre, and I've seen many games where his decisions were weird or plain wrong, leading to a lot of fans in PSD's local Laker forum complaining about it in games threads.

I don't know any other coach who gets rated as high as Jackson and who'se status is being questioned as much, so yeah that would qualify him as the most overrated ever.

Why use the ifs? If James Naismith was never born, basketball would've never been invented.

Debate 101: You never argue using hypothetical assumptions ;)

promixxer
02-14-2009, 04:26 PM
Del Harris tried to get the Lakers to the championship with Kobe and Shaq. He couldn't, thats why Phil Jackson was hired.


I will add that Harris also had 4 players who made the all star team during his term as coach. Shaq, Kobe, Van Exel and Eddie jones made the all star team one year and they could not seal the deal until PJ came along.

YankeeFan89
02-14-2009, 04:35 PM
Greg P and Jerry Sloan>Phil Jackson?

Lakersfan2483
02-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.

If Phil is overrated what does that make guys like Pat Riley, or Greg Popovich, or Red Aurebach??? All of those coaches have had top 50 players in NBA history. Terrible thread. All I can say is that you need to do some research on the teams prior to Jackson's arrival and you will clearly see the man is a great coach and motivator. Winning 9 championships and going to the finals 11 times is no accident at all, he's one of the greatest coaches in NBA history...

*Red Aurebach coached some of the greatest players in NBA history like Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, but it doesn't make him any less of a coach.

*Pat Riley has coached Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Ewing, Shaq, ZO, D. Wade, etc.. the same can be said.

*Popovich has coached Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Manu Ginobli, and Tony Parker, just because he had talent doesn't disqualify him as a great coach...

Every coach in NBA history has had to have some great players on there team in order to win a title or multiple titles.

_Supreme_
02-14-2009, 04:40 PM
Debate 101: You never argue using hypothetical assumptions ;)

Yes you very definitely do, that's why it is also being done in actual court cases.

scottie
02-14-2009, 04:42 PM
There is no way Phil is overrated! The guy gets hated on by about a 3-1 ratio, therefore the argument should be underrated!

_Supreme_
02-14-2009, 04:47 PM
If Phil is overrated what does that make guys like Pat Riley, or Greg Popovich, or Red Aurebach???

The thing is: how high does one get rated in the first place?

PJ usually gets rated higher than those others, so even if they were all overrated he basically would still be the most overrated for that reason.

_Supreme_
02-14-2009, 04:50 PM
PSD should un-permaban Ruven and let him tell you all how good he thinks PJ is :D

lorenz00
02-14-2009, 04:59 PM
all the coaches in the nba getting a lot of credit when they playing good.. but when the coach is losing there getting all the blame... all i can say is here coaches getting too much credit and too much blame...

JordansBulls
02-14-2009, 05:00 PM
Tim Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play. He was also paired with a HOF C that had enough talent to score over 70 in a game. Now, he's paired with a Top 5 PG and a SG that can score from anywhere and run an offense. I'd say that is pretty damn good.

BTW, Duncan and Robinson played together from 97-03, not one year. :clap:

Neither Parker nor Ginoboli were any good when they won it all in 2003. And don't say they would have been good because Manu was the 57th pick in the draft while Parker was 28th or 29th.

YankeesR#2
02-14-2009, 05:04 PM
I think Jackson is an ok coach, but nowhere in the same league as Red Auerbach, Jackson went to good teams, Red BUILT his, from scouting, coaching and being the GM.

No comparison, RED all the way is the best coach ever

I am glad that you have chosen such a true statement for your first post.

Phil Jackson is a better coach than I am and about 99% of the people on earth but he never had to build a team.

There are a lot of coaches who would do as well as he did with the talent he had but that doesn't mean he's not a good coach.

Hoopsadvocate
02-14-2009, 05:25 PM
Wow some people don't know how to read Most of the people who are Arguing for Phil being overrated ( NOT A BAD COACH at ALLL just not thats AMAZING) We never said hes a bad coach so idk why people were saying we said "Phil is a bad coach and that anyone could coach the teams hes coached to a championship". Butmost good coaches could have Pat Riley, Greg Pop, Lenny Wilkins, Larry Brown, Red A, Bill Russel, list goes on as far as GOOD COACHES could have won championships with those guys Phil had.

For the Last time he is not a bad coach hes damn good just overrated a bit. I just feel some coaches are ahead of him for reasons already stated here before about development and growth in players not just getting a stacked deck and getting praised for it.

Hoopsadvocate
02-14-2009, 05:31 PM
Neither Parker nor Ginoboli were any good when they won it all in 2003. And don't say they would have been good because Manu was the 57th pick in the draft while Parker was 28th or 29th.

Ty for speaking with some sense JB.

And Lakersrock Duncan and David played a couple years together yes and one a championship but were mainly talking about his success with Manus and Parkers who he developed not just got now when there good. That playing with an aging Robinson and young inexperienced Duncan NOT the same as with a already developed proven all star in Jordan and Shaq and Kobe.

lakersdynasty21
02-14-2009, 05:32 PM
didnt red have bill russell, cousy, kc jones, frank ramsey, havlicek, (and i think im missing another hall of famer or two) on his championship teams so he had a lot more hall of fame players than phil jackson coached. also the lakers had virtually the same team for 3 years before phil got there and never won a title.

DJRiddell
02-14-2009, 05:53 PM
I just don't understand how a man that has won 9 championships as a coach and only been awarded the Coach of the Year award once can ever be labeled as "overrated." Hell, before last season even started, a lot of analysts were predicting the Lakers wouldn't even make the playoffs. If anything, that would make him underrated. He took a team that wasn't even supposed to make it to the playoffs (according to most analysts) to the Finals. How is that overrated?

Fordy
02-14-2009, 05:59 PM
When he wins a ring without Jordan or Shaq than Ill call him great, til than Ill call him a good coach who rode coattails.

soundjunkies2
02-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Neither Parker nor Ginoboli were any good when they won it all in 2003. And don't say they would have been good because Manu was the 57th pick in the draft while Parker was 28th or 29th.

Maybe they weren't all stars but they were still good players.Tony parker averaged 14 and 5 per game while manu averaged 12ppg off the bench.

shortlunatic
02-14-2009, 07:53 PM
um he didnt bring in anyone, the management brought those players in, popovich has 4 rings with duncan as being the only superstar, his other players are parker, hes good, ganobli, good player, and who else? he didnt win with jordan and pippen, or shaq and kobe. i dont think you people understand just what kind of players this guy had, he had 4 hall of famers on the same team at once, and still lost to the pistons. actually nvm i think duncan and robinson played one season together, so thats 2 stars at once for popovich one year.


You still forget to mention they year he didnt have MJ. He still got 55 wins, and how many coaches can do that the year after a superstar leaves??

$KnicksAndKobe$
02-14-2009, 08:32 PM
Well, when he coached the "SIX" time, World Champion Bulls, one could argue he had one of the greatest teams ever including two top 50 NBA players including his Airness.

He calls it quits from Chicago for a year break and wants to leave the shadow of coaching for a team with two great players and goes to the Lakers with Kobe and Shaq.

I just think the man was smart enough to coach two teams assembled for championships and win based on their play more so than his coaching. He gets so much credit when if you look at it, he can't win when the "star" is not there.

Jordan leaves for two years in 93 thru 95, the Bulls don't win again till he comes back. Shaq gets traded from the Lakers, they don't win again.

I wonder how Phil would do coaching a team like Charlotte or Golden State? Maybe he wouldn't be as touted as he is now.

You can't win a championship or win with out a great team.
So I don't understand the point of this thread at all.

borat
02-14-2009, 08:38 PM
No. Red is. Not only did he have the best talent around, but he also played in an era where most other teams were weak sauce. And check this. Go and see how many teams were in the league then.

Red Auerbach is by far the most overrated coach in NBA history.

NHock1120
02-14-2009, 08:40 PM
this is one of the dumbest threads ever. in order to win you need great players and great coaches.

Exactly. Thank You

S2krollin
02-14-2009, 08:47 PM
Jackson has 9 Rings. How is that being overrated?

michaelbt18
02-14-2009, 09:01 PM
When he wins a ring without Jordan or Shaq than Ill call him great, til than Ill call him a good coach who rode coattails.

I almost completely agree. However, you can have a great coach surrounded by crappy players and he will lose. But Jackson has been with players like Jordan, Kobe and Shaq and I think they are more the reason why he has won. I wouldn't say he is the most over rated coach but probably one of the luckiest (when it comes to his players).