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View Full Version : All-Star Roster should be set by PER.



Gorgon2k
02-11-2009, 02:49 PM
I've done some research and I think one very important stat to sum up a players value and productivity is PER(Player Efficency Rating). Its basically a stat that as John Hollinger puts it "rating of a player's per-minute productivity." Now the player must have at least 500 minutes played and average 25 minutes a game. This would avoid the stupid fan vote and truely select the stars and most effective players that year. The line-ups under this system would be....

West
Paul
Duncan
Kobe
Boozer
Roy
Ming
Jefferson
Nowitzki
Ginobili
Gasol
Oneal
Parker

East
James
Wade
Howard
Harris
Bosh
Garnett
Granger
Nelson
Carter
Jamison
Ilgauskas
Calderon

This ends up leaving Billups and West out in the West, and Iverson, Williams, Pierce, Lewis, Allen, and Joe Johnson out in the East. I Think its a fair judgement of players all around. What do you think?

WSU Tony
02-11-2009, 02:50 PM
I think PER should be taken into account more than a bunch of ESPN watching 'I recognize that name' people.

bahama0811
02-11-2009, 02:51 PM
Hollinger's an idiot

Gorgon2k
02-11-2009, 02:58 PM
Hollinger's an idiot

excellent rebuttal

BayAreaNative
02-11-2009, 03:05 PM
The All-Star game is for the fans. They should be allowed to have a certain amount of say regarding who's in it. The coaches picked most of the people who were left off using your method, so it's their fault if you don't like the reserves.

The only fan-chosen starters left off were Stoudemire (who you missed on your list) and Iverson, both of whom I agree are not worthy of the game.

Lost Art
02-11-2009, 03:08 PM
I personally think that PER is a bogus stat. It's just a statistical formula that weights each stat to Hollinger's liking. Who's to say how important a rebound is in comparison to an assist? Or a block in comparison to a steal? Or a point in comparison to a rebound? Well if those topics are John Hollinger's domain, then PER works out just fine. But if not, its pretty darn bogus.

According to PER Marreesse Speights is the 20th best player in the league and a possible allstar. You may ask "who the hell is that"? And my answer would be.........exactly :D

I always find that the best way of judging a players worth is with my own two eyes ;)

JordansBulls
02-11-2009, 03:13 PM
I've done some research and I think one very important stat to sum up a players value and productivity is PER(Player Efficency Rating). Its basically a stat that as John Hollinger puts it "rating of a player's per-minute productivity." Now the player must have at least 500 minutes played and average 25 minutes a game. This would avoid the stupid fan vote and truely select the stars and most effective players that year. The line-ups under this system would be....

West
Paul
Duncan
Kobe
Boozer
Roy
Ming
Jefferson
Nowitzki
Ginobili
Gasol
Oneal
Parker

East
James
Wade
Howard
Harris
Bosh
Garnett
Granger
Nelson
Carter
Jamison
Ilgauskas
Calderon

This ends up leaving Billups and West out in the West, and Iverson, Williams, Pierce, Lewis, Allen, and Joe Johnson out in the East. I Think its a fair judgement of players all around. What do you think?

You still need to have played significant minutes and games. Boozer hasn't nor has Calderon thus far.

theuuord
02-11-2009, 03:15 PM
And the anti-stat brigade will enter in 3...2...1....

bahama0811
02-11-2009, 03:15 PM
excellent rebuttal

I'm not saying I disagree, just that Hollinger's an idiot. He thinks he's the smartest basketball mind. He's not.

theuuord
02-11-2009, 03:15 PM
The All-Star game is for the fans. They should be allowed to have a certain amount of say regarding who's in it. The coaches picked most of the people who were left off using your method, so it's their fault if you don't like the reserves.

The only fan-chosen starters left off were Stoudemire (who you missed on your list) and Iverson, both of whom I agree are not worthy of the game.

Well apparently according to Americans it's only for American fans. If it was truly for the fans, nobody would be mad about Yi almost making it.

Just saying.

JordansBulls
02-11-2009, 03:16 PM
I personally think that PER is a bogus stat. It's just a statistical formula that weights each stat to Hollinger's liking. Who's to say how important a rebound is in comparison to an assist? Or a block in comparison to a steal? Or a point in comparison to a rebound? Well if those topics are John Hollinger's domain, then PER works out just fine. But if not, its pretty darn bogus.

According to PER Marreesse Speights is the 20th best player in the league and a possible allstar. You may ask "who the hell is that"? And my answer would be.........exactly :D

I always find that the best way of judging a players worth is with my own two eyes ;)

How many minutes per game does Speights play and that should answer your question?

Gorgon2k
02-11-2009, 03:19 PM
Haha i know speights because im a sixers fan, and thats why i said there should be a limit to the amount of minutes total and MPG

bahama0811
02-11-2009, 03:22 PM
That would be a joke though, I mean the Nuggets are the third seed in the west right now and wouldn't even have anyone in the allstar game. Then, you'd have Carlos Boozer in the game and he's only played in 12 games this year.

BayAreaNative
02-11-2009, 03:23 PM
Well apparently according to Americans it's only for American fans. If it was truly for the fans, nobody would be mad about Yi almost making it.

Just saying.

Maybe I don't watch enough NBA TV, but this is the first I've heard about people being mad that Yi almost made it.

And at the risk of being called a "stat hater," There is more to being an all-star than just putting up numbers. There are plenty of players in this league who put up big numbers mostly because there's no one else on their team who can score or rebound or whatever.

Gorgon2k
02-11-2009, 03:28 PM
That would be a joke though, I mean the Nuggets are the third seed in the west right now and wouldn't even have anyone in the allstar game. Then, you'd have Carlos Boozer in the game and he's only played in 12 games this year.

ok my fault on that one, i guess the total minutes could be adjusted. But im just throwing out an outline for such scenario. I think the West looks alot better than the East where guys like Iverson, Williams, etc. made it solely because the benefit from playing with good guys. I guess a dumb analogy would be like if I played the 5th starting spot for a the Celtics playing a team, I would look alot better then if I played the 5th spot for a high school team against the same competition.

Gorgon2k
02-11-2009, 03:30 PM
Maybe I don't watch enough NBA TV, but this is the first I've heard about people being mad that Yi almost made it.

And at the risk of being called a "stat hater," There is more to being an all-star than just putting up numbers. There are plenty of players in this league who put up big numbers mostly because there's no one else on their team who can score or rebound or whatever.

See i look at it from a reverse stand-point. Granted you may get more points, but your FG% should stay consistant, and maybe even dip because of coverages considering your the best player on the team.

theuuord
02-11-2009, 03:32 PM
Maybe I don't watch enough NBA TV, but this is the first I've heard about people being mad that Yi almost made it.


You weren't on PSD during the voting then. It was basically an uproar.

Gorgon2k
02-11-2009, 03:34 PM
and if Yi Jianlian made the All-star game, that would be an absolute joke. He hasnt even played for a month and has had 3 double doubles all year. Let alone his PER(for sake of this discussion) is 12.4

Heres a chart of how Hollinger breaks down a players status based on their PER

*A Year For the Ages: 35.0
*Runaway MVP Candidate: 30.0
*Strong MVP Candidate: 27.5
*Weak MVP Candidate: 25.0
*Bona fide All-Star: 22.5
*Borderline All-Star: 20.0
*Solid 2nd option: 18.0
*3rd Banana: 16.5
*Pretty good player: 15.0
*In the rotation: 13.0
*Scrounging for minutes: 11.0
*Definitely renting: 9.0
*On next plane to Yakima: 5.0

so based on his PER Yi is between Scrounging for minutes and in the rotation, lol

BayAreaNative
02-11-2009, 03:35 PM
My fault for missing that then. I stand corrected.

What about defensive performances? The only way to measure those is blocks, steals and rebounds, but there's a lot more that goes in to playing defense. I'd rather have Paul Pierce on my team than Ilgauskas any day of the week.

MTone8788
02-11-2009, 03:38 PM
I don't think you should go by PER. Take Jose Calerdon on your list for example. Very good player, but does his performance amount to much for the Raptors? No, they are doing bad.

And in the West Billups definitely deserves to be an all star, look what he's done for the Nuggets.

jrodmesche
02-11-2009, 03:43 PM
i think its a stupid idea

cambovenzi
02-11-2009, 03:47 PM
you can take PER into account, but it shouldnt be based solely on it..

Chronz
02-11-2009, 03:52 PM
No but not for the reasons most have said, simply because a players worth can never be fully measured by stats so why would you limit yourself to them alone? PER is a usage driven stat, if a player has a higher usage chances are hes going to have the higher PER and in most cases its with good reason but there are some players (Ray Allen) who dont see the ball as much, but theyve replaced quantity with quality in a manner so impressive that you know he could have the higher PER if he had to be more of a factor. Its definitely a tool to help balance out efficiency vs usage but its not the only tool to be used.

Lakers09
02-11-2009, 03:57 PM
i think thats a great idea but it would be better if it was the top 10 from east and west and the fans get 2 votes

Lost Art
02-11-2009, 04:00 PM
How many minutes per game does Speights play and that should answer your question?

15mpg

........and I didn't even have a question???? I just stated flat out that PER, as well as all of Hollinger's trumped up #'s, are BS.

To prove my point even further.......PER says that:

- Mike Bibby > Iverson, Rose, Nash, Kidd
- Barbosa > Iggy, Redd, Joe Johnson, Allen, Tmac
- AK47 > Pierce, Melo, Butler, Artest, Prince
- Villanueva > Amare, West, Milsap, Shard, Lee
- Biedrins > Bynum, Big Z, Camby, Nene, Okafor, Bogut

I could go on and on.

Use your eyes. Hollinger's stats are weighted as he sees each stats impact on the game.........but like I said before, who is he to decide?

bahama0811
02-11-2009, 04:01 PM
I think it should be part of it as well. Maybe something like 50% PER/25% fan vote/25% player-coach vote. Why not let the players and coaches have a say as well?

Lost Art
02-11-2009, 04:03 PM
The current system is fine. Its all about entertainment, and that's exactly what we get. No biggy.

To be honest, it would probably make a more entertaining game if some of the guys who didn't make it were participating (Tmac, VC, Nash, J-Kidd)