PDA

View Full Version : Hall of Fame - All or none?



redbird89
02-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Players have probably been using amphetamines for decades. In the 90s, the sluggers were probably juiced, and the pitchers were probably on something, too. HGH can still only be detected through blood, so it is not regularly tested.

We have all the players we know probably did it, or who failed a test (McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, recently Arod). But what about the players who really don't know about? Pitchers? Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux? Do we know if Sammy Sosa did or didn't?

My point is, how can you keep some players out and let others in? I realize the Hall of Fame vote requires voters to think about integrity. But in that case, let's keep everyone from the 50s on out. Obviously, that wouldn't be fair. Neither would be keeping out suspected steroid users and letting in other players who are probably just as guilty.

How do we know? Do we keep all players from the steroid era out, or do we let them in based only on numbers and proven steroid use? Or should we disregard whether they used steroids or not?

Just wondering your opinion.

ugafan
02-10-2009, 07:16 PM
Until there is decisive proof of the exact timeframe each player took steroids, it is extremely difficult to decide.

redwhitenblue
02-10-2009, 07:17 PM
Put in the Hall Of Fame worthy players from this era. Judge the players of this era against this era and not era's from previous decades. Overall there will be players who look worthy but when they're compared to others in this era and not the previous HOF members-they will not be, however in general guys like Bonds, McGwire, A-Rod and Clemens were all the elite in the sport.

abe_froman
02-10-2009, 07:21 PM
Players have probably been using amphetamines for decades. In the 90s, the sluggers were probably juiced, and the pitchers were probably on something, too. HGH can still only be detected through blood, so it is not regularly tested.

We have all the players we know probably did it, or who failed a test (McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, recently Arod). But what about the players who really don't know about? Pitchers? Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux? Do we know if Sammy Sosa did or didn't?

My point is, how can you keep some players out and let others in? I realize the Hall of Fame vote requires voters to think about integrity. But in that case, let's keep everyone from the 50s on out. Obviously, that wouldn't be fair. Neither would keeping out suspected steroid users and letting in other players who are probably just as guilty.

How do we know? Do we keep all players from the steroid era out, or do we let them in based only on numbers and proven steroid use? Or should we disregard whether they used steroids or not?

Just wondering your opinion.
still just like with every game,there has to be penalties for cheating and those who get caught suffer the consequences,not everyone's name will come out just how it is but than not every murderer get convicted and imprisoned,still a crime,and still get punished for getting caught.or you let them all free because o.j. didnt...

Jilly Bohnson
02-10-2009, 07:21 PM
The HOF is already a joke, not having A-rod, Bonds, and Clemens and also arbitrarily deciding which players did and did not do steroids under absence of proof(Sosa's for sure a roider, there's no chance Griffey was, etc.) is just the final nail in the coffin of the credibility of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

redwhitenblue
02-10-2009, 07:22 PM
still just like with every game,there has to be penalties for cheating and those who get caught suffer the consequences,not everyone's name will come out just how it is but than not every murderer get convicted and imprisoned,still a crime,and still get punished for getting caught.or you let them all free because o.j. didnt...
We have HOF players who openly admit to cheating, using foreign substances and doctoring baseballs.

abe_froman
02-10-2009, 07:26 PM
We have HOF players who openly admit to cheating, using foreign substances and doctoring baseballs.

and? i never said everyone in there should stay

redwhitenblue
02-10-2009, 07:28 PM
and? i never said everyone in there should stay
Also, many of the "OMG they used!" guys were using at a time when the items they were taking weren't banned by baseball (McGwire openly took Andro, which was allowed at the time)

So are you going to ex-post facto those guys and throw them under the steroid bust although what they were doing at the time was NOT against the rules?

firecrotchboggs
02-10-2009, 07:29 PM
this is such a difficult question because so many people did it, can you really discount 2 decades of ballplayers? but on the contrary do you support cheating? i think eventually a roider will be put in the hall but its gonna have to be somebody who has had a substantial career during a period where it is proven that they were not juicing and they probably wont have a guilty perjury case under their belt either, it is understood that this has been a different time in which lots of players participated in these events and at times it may have been a level playing field anyway because of the number of players roiding, either way it will take a special case for a roider to get into the hall and even if elected they will always carry the stigma of the steroid generation with them throughout history (unless they didnt juice, then they are a true hero of this time)

Gup
02-10-2009, 07:31 PM
none.... cheaters

abe_froman
02-10-2009, 07:32 PM
Also, many of the "OMG they used!" guys were using at a time when the items they were taking weren't banned by baseball (McGwire openly took Andro, which was allowed at the time)

So are you going to ex-post facto those guys and throw them under the steroid bust although what they were doing at the time was NOT against the rules?
did i say that?no.you seem to be jumping to many conclusions here

Jilly Bohnson
02-10-2009, 07:36 PM
none.... cheaters

In that case you can't really let in anybody from about the 80's on. Hell, to be really fair you probably can't let anybody in from the 70's on. We have no way of knowing who did or did not use steroids, unless you can somehow get your hands on monthly blood tests spanning the players' entire career which all come back clean.

Moosie Doom
02-10-2009, 07:43 PM
I really believe the steroid question should be irrelevant for these guys. The steroid criticism is hypocritical. Cheaters fill the Hall.

There are several dirty pitchers enshrined. Whitey Ford, Phil Niekro, and Gaylord Perry are all in there and they were all known to doctor or grease the ball. In fact, when baseball was outlawing the spitball in the 20s, they allowed all the veteran players who threw it to keep throwing it until they retired. Where was the "level playing field" then?

All these guys that you think would go into the Hall if not for steroids (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, ARod) should go in anyway. They have been the great players of their age. They got us excited about baseball and they belong in the Hall.

Bronxbombers182
02-10-2009, 07:47 PM
Players that had HOF numbers before they took roids, should get in. Arod, should get in. This may sound crazy, but Bonds should get in as well. He was a HOF before the roids.

Jilly Bohnson
02-10-2009, 07:51 PM
I really believe the steroid question should be irrelevant for these guys. The steroid criticism is hypocritical. Cheaters fill the Hall.

There are several dirty pitchers enshrined. Whitey Ford, Phil Niekro, and Gaylord Perry are all in there and they were all known to doctor or grease the ball. In fact, when baseball was outlawing the spitball in the 20s, they allowed all the veteran players who threw it to keep throwing it until they retired. Where was the "level playing field" then?

All these guys that you think would go into the Hall if not for steroids (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, ARod) should go in anyway. They have been the great players of their age. They got us excited about baseball and they belong in the Hall.

Not to get on my soapbox(too late I know), but this is the one that really pisses me off, and it's not just because I'm a Cubs fan. There is NOTHING concrete to implicate Sammy Sosa for steroids. He got bigger, but it was much more gradual than say Bonds, and he corked his bat one time. There's nothing that says he took steroids. No one saying they provided for him, no one saying they've seen him do it, no receipts, nothing. And if you look at his numbers, he followed a pretty natural career arc. Decent in his 20's, exploded in his late 20's-early 30's, slow decline until he fell off the cliff at about age 36. It is ludicrous to try and keep him out of the hall unless there is some substantial proof, not just a little bit of circumstantial stuff.

And for the record, I think Sammy juiced. But it is unfair and hypocritical to try and keep him out. You have to do one of two things with the steroid era, assume everyone did them, or go with "innocent until proven guilty." You can't just go "Oh, he seems like he was a roider." That's juvenile. I hear people mention Sosa as a roider and then mention guys like Griffey who they are "sure is clean" in the same sentence. It's so stupid and immature and lazy on their part that it's not even funny.

ugafan
02-10-2009, 08:00 PM
Also, there's no way you can group all three together fairly.

Seamhead
02-10-2009, 08:01 PM
All.

Twinke Masta
02-10-2009, 08:14 PM
Steroids is like a double-ended dildo, either way you get ****ed

donnie23
02-10-2009, 08:18 PM
Too bad the media is mostly morons or we could just ask that they use their judgement.

McGuire, no time soon.
Bonds, of course.

bartoron
02-10-2009, 08:30 PM
You have to do it on a case-to-case basis. Bonds and A-Rod will probably make it in, since they were both great players when they "weren't on steroids." Mark McGwire will probably never get in, and Sammy Sosa might not make it in, either.

ugadawgsfan17
02-10-2009, 08:33 PM
You have to do it on a case-to-case basis. Bonds and A-Rod will probably make it in, since they were both great players when they "weren't on steroids." Mark McGwire will probably never get in, and Sammy Sosa might not make it in, either.

There are too many variables. No one is for sure how long some of these guys have taken it. A-Rod or Bonds may have been taking it for a while

Jilly Bohnson
02-10-2009, 08:39 PM
You have to do it on a case-to-case basis. Bonds and A-Rod will probably make it in, since they were both great players when they "weren't on steroids." Mark McGwire will probably never get in, and Sammy Sosa might not make it in, either.

That's ridiculous though, unless you have frequent blood tests spanning a player's entire career, you can't really say when they were or were not on steroids. Who's to say Bonds wasn't using steroids before he got all big? Maybe he was using them to for energy/recovery then, and then switched to a regiment to improve his size/power later on. He very well could have been using the whole time. How do we know a guy like Ricky Henderson didn't use them? We can't just pick or choose who we think did them or didn't do them. Assume everyone did, or go with "innocent until proven guilty."