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View Full Version : Showdown in Brontown. Kobe, Lebron battle for NBA best record and player.



fairandbalanced
02-08-2009, 04:42 PM
Who wins? Cleveland has best home record, but Lakers has road best Record. Kobe is not feeling too well, plus Bynum is injured. I think Lebron takes this and debate for best player won't be solved tonight.

fairandbalanced
02-08-2009, 05:40 PM
Both look slow at half-time.

lakersrock
02-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Luckily for us, Kobe had to get a stinking IV at halftime and was puking before the game. Awesome.

madiaz3
02-08-2009, 05:58 PM
ew he was vomiting before the start of the game lol

gcoll
02-08-2009, 06:03 PM
The debate over best player is already over.

It's Lebron. He can do everything Kobe can do, and then some..due to his size and athleticism.

WadeCounty
02-08-2009, 06:07 PM
cavs will win but best player is still kobe

madiaz3
02-08-2009, 06:07 PM
The debate over best player is already over.

It's Lebron. He can do everything Kobe can do, and then some..due to his size and athleticism.

Saying Lebron can "shoot 3s and midrange" jumpers like Kobe can is the same as me saying Kobe can attack the paint like Lebron can.

Sure they both have those things in their skill sets, but get real on both ends, all in all one is a guard, one is a SF.

Oh, also FT shooting.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 06:21 PM
Lakers!!

Kobe is out performing LeBron so far.

Mo Williams, Szczerbiak, Odom are playing well.

chicagowhitesox
02-08-2009, 06:25 PM
i'll take the cavs at home.

koreancabbage
02-08-2009, 06:25 PM
lakers!

this game will show you that Cleveland is still far from winning a championship. Lakers and Boston both better than Cleveland.

horry1ur
02-08-2009, 06:26 PM
Lamar Odom baby!.15 pts in 3rd quarter!.Straight up DOMINATING!.
:clap:

horry1ur
02-08-2009, 06:26 PM
Oh and i think Lakers will take this! And Kobe is still the better player IMO!

JordansBulls
02-08-2009, 06:32 PM
Best Player is Tim Duncan.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 06:34 PM
Best Player is Tim Duncan.

Hahaha:p

fairandbalanced
02-08-2009, 06:37 PM
This game didn't live up to the hype. So sad.

BALLER R
02-08-2009, 06:39 PM
man odom is going to work

lakerboy
02-08-2009, 06:43 PM
Doesn't matter if it lives up to the hype or not, I just want a W.

DeadMemories
02-08-2009, 06:45 PM
Kobe back in!

Fool
02-08-2009, 06:47 PM
The debate over best player is already over.

It's Lebron. He can do everything Kobe can do, and then some..due to his size and athleticism.

that's hilarious. because last time I heard, Kobe had a jump shot. No chance is LeBron a better shooter than Kobe. Kobe is by far the best closer in the NBA.

DeadMemories
02-08-2009, 06:52 PM
What a shot by kobe!

koreancabbage
02-08-2009, 06:52 PM
jump shot over the out stretched arms of lebron if i might add. lebron gets completely shut down when kobe is on him.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 06:53 PM
That fadeaway was amazing. One of the highest arcing shots ive seen

S.J.Basketball
02-08-2009, 06:54 PM
FairandBalanced actually had a fair and balanced post. Amazing.

Lakers look like they're gonna take the win in the 4th quarter here. Kobe just made a ridiculous prayer of a rainbow and the lakers are shooting free throws and are up by 6 with a few minutes left.

Lebrons had a tough game shooing wise so far.

gauth25
02-08-2009, 06:58 PM
Lebron doesn't compare to Kobe and it's showing. Lebron cannot shoot and he cannot finish at the basket unless he has a wide open lane. Oh and may I add that I'm tired of hearing how good defensively the Cavs are. In my mind after watching this game, they are pretty soft.

Kenny
02-08-2009, 06:59 PM
Lebron doesn't compare to Kobe and it's showing. Lebron cannot shoot and he cannot finish at the basket unless he has a wide open lane. Oh and may I add that I'm tired of hearing how good defensively the Cavs are. In my mind after watching this game, they are pretty soft.

Great and your basing this off of one game..

gauth25
02-08-2009, 07:01 PM
This one game? I'm pretty sure I've seen the Lakers do this twice to them and I just watched both supposed power house East teams lose to the top 2 West teams.

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 07:01 PM
Great and your basing this off of one game..

True you shouldn't jump to conclusion after one or two games BUT Lakers clogged the lane and SHUT DOWN Lebron this game, if he did have a consistent jumper it would have been a different story.

Nadhi1
02-08-2009, 07:01 PM
Finally the cavs lose at home...

DeadMemories
02-08-2009, 07:03 PM
Lakers 4-0 vs the celtics and cavs this season.

Fool
02-08-2009, 07:03 PM
:clap::cheers: woot. huge roadtrip for the lakers, and they go 6-0, the two biggest wins coming without Drew. Those games were huge for us.

EddieB
02-08-2009, 07:06 PM
Kobe!

WadeCounty
02-08-2009, 07:07 PM
i wanted the streak to keep on and pray the heat could somehow break it :( LOL

markhebert42
02-08-2009, 07:07 PM
41-9

Kenny
02-08-2009, 07:09 PM
Kobe!

I think you mean ODOM.. Guy was a man possessed

Teeboy1487
02-08-2009, 07:09 PM
Cavs shoot too many 3s. Like the old saying. Live by the 3, die by the 3. Go lakers baby, 6-0 roadtrip.

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 07:10 PM
Cavs shoot too many 3s. Like the old saying. Live by the 3, die by the 3.

That's cuz we clogged the lane, key to beating them.

markhebert42
02-08-2009, 07:10 PM
:clap::cheers: woot. huge roadtrip for the lakers, and they go 6-0, the two biggest wins coming without Drew. Those games were huge for us.

HCA (Home Court Advantage)! :D

JJ81
02-08-2009, 07:10 PM
I love how so many of you didn't vote when the game was happening and as soon as it ends everyone votes Lakers... what's the point in that?

still1ballin
02-08-2009, 07:10 PM
Kobe>LeBrick

goku
02-08-2009, 07:11 PM
it was boring

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 07:12 PM
it was boring

Why? Cuz Lebron got shut down? :D :hide:

Fool
02-08-2009, 07:13 PM
I love how so many of you didn't vote when the game was happening and as soon as it ends everyone votes Lakers... what's the point in that?

The fact that now the Lakers have beaten the Cavs twice instead of just once could have changed peoples opinions...

lakerboy
02-08-2009, 07:14 PM
I imagine your screen must be covered in spit.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
:smoking::smoking::smoking::smoking:

BTownTeamsRKing
02-08-2009, 07:14 PM
kobe over lebron any day.

if u think otherwise, u learned nothing this week.

LAKERS 24/7
02-08-2009, 07:15 PM
6-0 on this road trip without bynum. defeat cavs and boston on their home floor. any chance we're not the favorites to win it all this year?

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 07:15 PM
kobe over lebron any day.

if u think otherwise, u learned nothing this week.

Wow a Celtic fan giving Kobe the edge! :speechless: JK :)

BTownTeamsRKing
02-08-2009, 07:17 PM
6-0 on this road trip without bynum. defeat cavs and boston on their home floor. any chance we're not the favorites to win it all this year?

the favorite changes every single week. there is no favorite.

all 3 teams are even and we will see what moves are made in the comming weeks.

Torque
02-08-2009, 07:20 PM
Kobe > LeBron

LA > Cavs

BTownTeamsRKing
02-08-2009, 07:20 PM
Wow a Celtic fan giving Kobe the edge! :speechless: JK :)

i know talent wen i see it

kingkobe
02-08-2009, 07:21 PM
Cavs shoot too many 3s. Like the old saying. Live by the 3, die by the 3. Go lakers baby, 6-0 roadtrip.

You're actually pretty wrong with this one. If you actually look at the stats Cavs were 11-23 from the 3-pt line which is ~50%. This is a pretty decent shooting.

On the other hand Lakers were 3-20 from the 3-point line. So, "live by the 3, die by the 3" saying makes NO SENSE here.

More like "live by Lebron, die by Lebron". 5-20 shooting...thats what killed the Cavs today.

LAKERS 24/7
02-08-2009, 07:22 PM
the favorite changes every single week. there is no favorite.

all 3 teams are even and we will see what moves are made in the comming weeks.

True it does change, but what I was implying is that even if all 3 teams do remain tied at the end of the season, we will own the tiebreaker, giving us the edge. HC gave your team the advantage last year, you have to admit it did a lot.

Pitty'09
02-08-2009, 07:23 PM
by the way, Bron may have ended with a trip dub, but his offense was GARBAGE in this game. I didnt watch the last couple min so i dont know if he got the 2 boards he needed. He WAS NOT PLAYING WELL, and Kobe J'ed in his face twice. and I hate Kobe.

Pitty'09
02-08-2009, 07:24 PM
6-0 on this road trip without bynum. defeat cavs and boston on their home floor. any chance we're not the favorites to win it all this year?

Yeah, the celtics will still own u when it matters TO THEM.

Teeboy1487
02-08-2009, 07:25 PM
If it was boring, you should have changed the channel. :)

lakerboy
02-08-2009, 07:25 PM
You're actually pretty wrong with this one. If you actually look at the stats Cavs were 11-23 from the 3-pt line which is ~50%. This is a pretty decent shooting.

On the other hand Lakers were 3-20 from the 3-point line. So, "live by the 3, die by the 3" saying makes NO SENSE here.

More like "live by Lebron, die by Lebron". 5-20 shooting...thats what killed the Cavs today.

Also, I think our front court match up the Cavs pretty well. They are getting manhandled inside.

Teeboy1487
02-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Yeah, the celtics will still own u when it matters TO THEM. :p

x_notorious
02-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Kobe and the Lakers clearly out played LeBron and the Cavs. Kobe wasn't even at full strength too. At halftime, he took an IV and was puking. Still, he was efficient from the field [8-17]. LeBron on the other hand was held to 5-20 shooting but was close to getting a triple double with 12 dimes and 8 boards. At the end, it came down to the role players such as Odom and Gasol who had GREAT games. 28/17 for Odom and 18/12/6 for Gasol.

It's clear the the Lakers are the best team in the league, especially after seeing them go 6-0 on this road trip that included the Cavs, Celtics, and Raptors.

still1ballin
02-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Kobe with the flu and still played better then LeBron.

Teeboy1487
02-08-2009, 07:28 PM
You're actually pretty wrong with this one. If you actually look at the stats Cavs were 11-23 from the 3-pt line which is ~50%. This is a pretty decent shooting.

On the other hand Lakers were 3-20 from the 3-point line. So, "live by the 3, die by the 3" saying makes NO SENSE here.

More like "live by Lebron, die by Lebron". 5-20 shooting...thats what killed the Cavs today.
Yeah, we post up though, cavs shoot jumpshots. Good point though. :clap:

EddieB
02-08-2009, 07:28 PM
Kobe with the flu and still played better then LeBron.

YEAH BABY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 07:32 PM
That was a statement win for the lakers. Extremely impressive. No Bynum and Kobe was sick, and they still won.

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 07:34 PM
Kobe with the flu and still played better then LeBron.

Not really. LeBron had 10 more assists and 5 more rebounds. Yeah, he shot worse, but he got more people involved.

JordansBulls
02-08-2009, 07:34 PM
That was a statement win for the lakers. Extremely impressive. No Bynum and Kobe was sick, and they still won.

I keep telling people that the Lakers are better with the Gasol and Odom frontcourt then they are with the Gasol and Bynum frontcourt.

What did the Lakers do? They just went 6-0 with the Gasol and Odom frontcout.

You can't relegate Odom to the bench because he then becomes ineffective.

lakerboy
02-08-2009, 07:37 PM
Not really. LeBron had 10 more assists and 5 more rebounds. Yeah, he shot worse, but he got more people involved.

Having 10 more assists doesn't really prove he had a better game than Kobe. The only thing it can prove is that he had the ball in his hands longer than Kobe did.

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 07:37 PM
I keep telling people that the Lakers are better with the Gasol and Odom frontcourt then they are with the Gasol and Bynum frontcourt.

What did the Lakers do? They just went 6-0 with the Gasol and Odom frontcout.

You can't relegate Odom to the bench because he then becomes ineffective.

You can't send Bynum to the bench either though. He has improved his game way too much and to send him to the bench would make his confidence shoot straight down.

I'm assuming Bynum is coming back this year. I haven't heard any news or updates on it for a couple days, so I guess that's good.

lakersrock
02-08-2009, 07:38 PM
Not really. LeBron had 10 more assists and 5 more rebounds. Yeah, he shot worse, but he got more people involved.

Kobe isn't the Lakers PG. LeBron should get more assists.

Kobe isn't a forward. LeBron should get more rebounds.

Why don't people get this? The best SF at rebounding average 7.3 RPG. The best SG at rebounding average 5.3 RPG. LeBron and Kobe are just over each average. That means they really are about the same on average. On the APG, he is basically that offenses PG. It's like saying Paul got more assists in a game than Kobe. Big deal.

gauth25
02-08-2009, 07:40 PM
Yeah, the celtics will still own u when it matters TO THEM.

OK there. Playing at home against the Lakers after they beat you earlier in the year and you don't seem to think that game didn't matter to them? Ya nice try.

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 07:40 PM
Having 10 more assists doesn't really prove he had a better game than Kobe. The only thing it can prove is that he had the ball in his hands longer than Kobe did.

I'm not saying that LeBron had a better game than Kobe. I thought they were pretty close performance wise. The Lakers played really well with Kobe on the bench, so that's why I think you can't say Bryant had far and away a better game than LeBron.

Also, for the amount of time that LeBron was handling the ball, he had only 1 turnover. Kobe had 2, and he didn't even control the ball as long as LeBron did.

lakers4sho
02-08-2009, 07:42 PM
Kobe isn't the Lakers PG. LeBron should get more assists.

Kobe isn't a forward. LeBron should get more rebounds.

Why don't people get this? The best SF at rebounding average 7.3 RPG. The best SG at rebounding average 5.3 RPG. LeBron and Kobe are just over each average. That means they really are about the same on average. On the APG, he is basically that offenses PG. It's like saying Paul got more assists in a game than Kobe. Big deal.

Go ahead and tell them LR :clap:

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-08-2009, 07:43 PM
Not really. LeBron had 10 more assists and 5 more rebounds. Yeah, he shot worse, but he got more people involved.

I really wished people would stop judging the impact Lebron and Kobe have on the game by looking at their stats. Jalen Rose said it perfectly on ESPN right now, Lebron is going to get the big numbers because that is the offense they run. There will never be a game where Lebron gets 5 assist. It would be like Chris Paul only getting 5 assist. It wont happen! The only way it could possibly happen is if their teams hit no shots at all. Kobe can have 1 assist and play a perfect game. He is NOT SUPPOSED TO CREATE FOR EVERYONE ELSE! Their offensive scheme is supposed to provide the open looks. Not one guy getting a pick and passing it out to a teammate for a shot.

If Kobe was put in that offense, he could make all the stat geeks have wet dreams of all the dimes and points he could drop.

gauth25
02-08-2009, 07:43 PM
Kobe isn't the Lakers PG. LeBron should get more assists.

Kobe isn't a forward. LeBron should get more rebounds.

Why don't people get this? The best SF at rebounding average 7.3 RPG. The best SG at rebounding average 5.3 RPG. LeBron and Kobe are just over each average. That means they really are about the same on average. On the APG, he is basically that offenses PG. It's like saying Paul got more assists in a game than Kobe. Big deal.

Ya if you look at how the game goes, Kobe doesn't sit back and try and get rebounds like Lebron does. Kobe just goes down to the other side of the court and Lebron has the ball every possesion.

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 07:44 PM
Kobe isn't the Lakers PG. LeBron should get more assists.

Kobe isn't a forward. LeBron should get more rebounds.

Why don't people get this? The best SF at rebounding average 7.3 RPG. The best SG at rebounding average 5.3 RPG. LeBron and Kobe are just over each average. That means they really are about the same on average. On the APG, he is basically that offenses PG. It's like saying Paul got more assists in a game than Kobe. Big deal.

Technically, Mo Williams is the Cavaliers PG.

Going off your stats, today, LeBron got more rebounds than the average SF. Kobe got less rebounds than the average SG. LeBron got more assists than the average PG, Kobe got less assists than the average SG.

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 07:47 PM
Ya if you look at how the game goes, Kobe doesn't sit back and try and get rebounds like Lebron does. Kobe just goes down to the other side of the court and Lebron has the ball every possesion.

That is a bad habit by Kobe then. All the players on a team should be on the defensive boards trying to grab rebounds. Don't discredit LeBron just because he does what all NBA players should do.

Teeboy1487
02-08-2009, 07:50 PM
Not really. LeBron had 10 more assists and 5 more rebounds. Yeah, he shot worse, but he got more people involved. So, you liked 5-20???:eyebrow: Also, the cavs were held to 30 points in the second half. Those assists were good but no impact on the game. Just admit it, Lebron had a bad game. It happens.

LA_Raiders
02-08-2009, 07:50 PM
LA bb!!! Any Questions?

gauth25
02-08-2009, 07:50 PM
That is a bad habit by Kobe then. All the players on a team should be on the defensive boards trying to grab rebounds. Don't discredit LeBron just because he does what all NBA players should do.

That's not his job. His job is to get down the court and get ready to score. When Kobe does play back he gets rebounds.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 07:52 PM
The fact that now the Lakers have beaten the Cavs twice instead of just once could have changed peoples opinions...

They're asking who's going to win the game...:rolleyes:

dsonLAL24
02-08-2009, 07:52 PM
6 game road sweep!!!

magichatnumber9
02-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Lakers are clearly the best team in the NBA

JJ81
02-08-2009, 07:53 PM
it was boring

You're boring.

LA_Raiders
02-08-2009, 07:53 PM
Technically, Mo Williams is the Cavaliers PG.

Going off your stats, today, LeBron got more rebounds than the average SF. Kobe got less rebounds than the average SG. LeBron got more assists than the average PG, Kobe got less assists than the average SG.

Who Won Today???

Thank you....:clap:

still1ballin
02-08-2009, 07:54 PM
6 game road sweep!!!

love the sig!!!:clap:

lakerboy
02-08-2009, 07:58 PM
I really wished people would stop judging the impact Lebron and Kobe have on the game by looking at their stats. Jalen Rose said it perfectly on ESPN right now, Lebron is going to get the big numbers because that is the offense they run. There will never be a game where Lebron gets 5 assist. It would be like Chris Paul only getting 5 assist. It wont happen! The only way it could possibly happen is if their teams hit no shots at all. Kobe can have 1 assist and play a perfect game. He is NOT SUPPOSED TO CREATE FOR EVERYONE ELSE! Their offensive scheme is supposed to provide the open looks. Not one guy getting a pick and passing it out to a teammate for a shot.

If Kobe was put in that offense, he could make all the stat geeks have wet dreams of all the dimes and points he could drop.

Well said. Exactly what I was trying to say.

lakerboy
02-08-2009, 07:59 PM
Btw, just want to add,.

It is extremely remarkable that this is the Cavs' only first home loss of the season. It's already Feb!

showtym24
02-08-2009, 08:00 PM
Yall can change the thread title now. Cause we know the anwser's.

lakers4sho
02-08-2009, 08:03 PM
Technically, Mo Williams is the Cavaliers PG.

On paper, he is.


Kobe got less rebounds than the average SG.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&league=nba&split=0&sort=totreb&avg=pg&qual=true&season=2009&seasontype=2&pos=sg

and that's why he's 2nd among SGs


Kobe got less assists than the average SG.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&league=nba&split=0&sort=asts&avg=pg&qual=true&season=2009&seasontype=2&pos=sg

and that's why he's 5th among SGs


Come on, you can do better than that ;)

NFLNBA
02-08-2009, 08:04 PM
That is a bad habit by Kobe then. All the players on a team should be on the defensive boards trying to grab rebounds. Don't discredit LeBron just because he does what all NBA players should do.

You must not have ever played ball have you? The C,PF,SF crash the boards PG and Sg who are guarding the perimeter 18-20 feet from the basket will try and streak down the other end to start the fast break. All teams are coached different but you saying EVERYONE is supposed to crash the boards is stupid.

Kobe with the flu getting IV's throwing up before the game out played a healthy Lebron in Clevland..........

Lebron in 40:08 min 5-20 FG 4-8 FT 8 boards 12 assists and the Loss

Kobe in 34:36 min 8-17 FG 3-3 FT 3 boards 2 assists and the Win with the FLU

NFLNBA
02-08-2009, 08:12 PM
Also like everyone else is saying that these haters never seem to get in there head is Lebron ALWAYS has the ball.......He either passes it to the guy taking th shot or he shoots it himself. Also he plays on average 6 more min a game then Kobe.

Look at the stats Lebron with 12 assists the next hight assist guy has 2

Look at the lakers assists they have multiple guys with 6 and 4 assists, everyone on the team has atleast 2 assists

Thats tells you the Lakers actually run a offense where the ball is in everyones hands, Cavs run "give the ball to Lebron and let him drive and kick"

showtym24
02-08-2009, 08:15 PM
Also like everyone else is saying that these haters never seem to get in there head is Lebron ALWAYS has the ball.......He either passes it to the guy taking th shot or he shoots it himself. Also he plays on average 6 more min a game then Kobe.

Look at the stats Lebron with 12 assists the next hight assist guy has 2

Look at the lakers assists they have multiple guys with 6 and 4 assists, everyone on the team has atleast 2 assists

Thats tells you the Lakers actually run a offense where the ball is in everyones hands, Cavs run "give the ball to Lebron and let him drive and kick"

100 % correct. The average PSD laker haters dont understand though.

EddieB
02-08-2009, 08:15 PM
Kobe is the best and will be the best of all time when he is done

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 08:17 PM
You must not have ever played ball have you? The C,PF,SF crash the boards PG and Sg who are guarding the perimeter 18-20 feet from the basket will try and streak down the other end to start the fast break. All teams are coached different but you saying EVERYONE is supposed to crash the boards is stupid.

You're pretty much saying the same thing I said. Everyone stays in the area just in case there is a long rebound. No one should be down on the other end of the court when you don't even have possession yet.


Kobe with the flu getting IV's throwing up before the game out played a healthy Lebron in Clevland..........

Lebron in 40:08 min 5-20 FG 4-8 FT 8 boards 12 assists and the Loss

Kobe in 34:36 min 8-17 FG 3-3 FT 3 boards 2 assists and the Win with the FLU

Those stats don't tell me that one player outplayed the other at all. They are similar.

Zefflin
02-08-2009, 08:22 PM
Those stats don't tell me that one player outplayed the other at all. They are similar.

You're making yourself seem supremely stubborn with your blind devotion and love for James. He had a terrible game and LA ended his little streak, move on.

Chronz
02-08-2009, 08:25 PM
Mike Browns biggest mistake was having Bron gaurd Kobe when Odom was terrorizing the their smalls. If you go small, you take Bron off of Kobe, its ****in common sense. Brown was the reason they lost this game.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-08-2009, 08:26 PM
Mike Browns biggest mistake was having Bron gaurd Kobe when Odom was terrorizing the their smalls. If you go small, you take Bron off of Kobe, its ****in common sense. Brown was the reason they lost this game.

I agree, Kobe was not the threat for the Cavs. He was pretty much a decoy in the second half

NYMetros
02-08-2009, 08:27 PM
You're making yourself seem supremely stubborn with your blind devotion and love for James. He had a terrible game and LA ended his little streak, move on.

Why are you assuming that I just have biasness towards James? I think Bryant is the MVP this year and the best player in the game. But just because I think that Kobe didn't outplay Lebron in every phase of the game today I am now a Kobe hater and a LeBron lover? :laugh2:

Zefflin
02-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Why are you assuming that I just have biasness towards James? I think Bryant is the MVP this year and the best player in the game.

Good, me too. And he just took it back from Lebron.


But just because I think that Kobe didn't outplay Lebron in every phase of the game today I am now a Kobe hater and a LeBron lover? :laugh2:

No, your 2 and a half pages of dribble made me type that. Again, move on.

GregOden#1
02-08-2009, 08:56 PM
No, your 2 and a half pages of dribble made me type that. Again, move on.

Unless you give up the debate between him and you isn't over. :eyebrow:

EddieB
02-08-2009, 08:57 PM
Go Kobe!

Chronz
02-08-2009, 09:02 PM
I thought Bron played poorly while Kobe played passively, the key difference is that the Lakers on this night could win with Kobe not going all out, the Cavs stood no chance of winning this game (Unless Bron/Brown put their ego's aside and take Lebron off of Kobe) without Bron trying to take over. He tried and failed so he had a bad game. Id say they were pretty even all things considered, but the win does give Kobe the edge IMO.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 09:09 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbarebound&league=nba&split=0&sort=totreb&avg=pg&qual=true&season=2009&seasontype=2&pos=sg

and that's why he's 2nd among SGs

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&league=nba&split=0&sort=asts&avg=pg&qual=true&season=2009&seasontype=2&pos=sg

and that's why he's 5th among SGs

Come on, you can do better than that ;)

You absolutely owned him :clap:

JJ81
02-08-2009, 09:09 PM
Lakers are clearly the best team in the NBA

:clap:

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 09:09 PM
Why are you assuming that I just have biasness towards James? I think Bryant is the MVP this year and the best player in the game. But just because I think that Kobe didn't outplay Lebron in every phase of the game today I am now a Kobe hater and a LeBron lover? :laugh2:

No not at all, it's because you base everything off of stats. Every time CP3 play LA or any team, he racks up the stats sheet with his points, assists, steals, and sometimes rebounds, does that mean he's always outplaying his opponents? No, it's because their whole offensive scheme is to give him the ball and let him create, same **** with Cavs.

Also Lebron didn't have a major impact on the game where as Kobe started the first quarter with 11 pts and 2 assists to get off to a good start. Then when the 3rd quarter started Kobe made 2 back to back and pretty big shots to spark the comeback, and not to mention the fade away.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 09:11 PM
Kobe is the best and will be the best of all time when he is done

:clap:

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 10:26 PM
Kobe is the best and will be the best of all time when he is done

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, he needs to win at least 2 or 3 championships before that happens.

favre_4life
02-08-2009, 10:58 PM
No Debate. Kobe still is the best player in the world. Until Lebron can show me he can shoot better then 29% from behind the arc, the it's not even a debate. How can you be considered the best in the world if you cannot even shoot a jumpshot?

ElMarroAfamado
02-08-2009, 11:01 PM
this was a great reminder as to why i will never consider lebron as a better player than kobe
they took away his DUNKS and LAYUPS

and he did NOTHING today.

07MVPPatBurrell
02-08-2009, 11:02 PM
No Debate. Kobe still is the best player in the world. Until Lebron can show me he can shoot better then 29% from behind the arc, the it's not even a debate. How can you be considered the best in the world if you cannot even shoot a jumpshot?

until kobe can show me he can average 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists he can't be considered.

how can you be the best in the world when you are so one dimensional ? stupid criteria

BTownTeamsRKing
02-08-2009, 11:12 PM
look ill give one reason why Kobe is better.

that shot he made with lebron right up on him. lebron had to be in shirt to get closer and Kobe just turned faded and shot the ball straight up like 10 ft above the hoop and it just swishes as he walks back on defense.

that was amazing. Kobe may be smaller, but he imposed his will and lebron couldnt do anything about it.

Kobe is no MJ, but lebron is no Kobe.

GspLAL
02-08-2009, 11:15 PM
look ill give one reason why Kobe is better.

that shot he made with lebron right up on him. lebron had to be in shirt to get closer and Kobe just turned faded and shot the ball straight up like 10 ft above the hoop and it just swishes as he walks back on defense.

that was amazing. Kobe may be smaller, but he imposed his will and lebron couldnt do anything about it.

Kobe is no MJ, but lebron is no Kobe.

That shot was probably one of the nicest jumpshots I've ever seen.

BTownTeamsRKing
02-08-2009, 11:18 PM
That shot was probably one of the nicest jumpshots I've ever seen.

it was unreal. possibly the best shot i have ever seen. see im not a hater. i give respect where respect is due.

Kobe - 3 time champ
LBJ - self proclaimed savior without a jumpshot

Skin&Bones
02-08-2009, 11:23 PM
No knock on lebron. But rick barry is absolutely rightand on point. Whoever is teaching lebron how to shoot should be fired no matter who or what he accomplished, that is a pretty pathetic showing of jumpshots for lebron. Especially on a marquee game like this.

His mechanics on shooting is too sluggish and fundamentally flawed. That is why he is blocked by ariza. For a very tall player, you should not get blocked on point like that especially on a big run they are trying to pull late in the game.

And don't tell me its an off game. Because his free throws are just downright embarrassing. Lebron can improve but he needs a right coach.

KB24PG16
02-08-2009, 11:32 PM
hope cavs fans enjoyed a laker victory and lebron struggling 16 points at home 23-1 30 points in the second half wont get it done

dRa1niNg_ 3s
02-08-2009, 11:33 PM
[QUOTE



Kobe is no MJ, but lebron is no Kobe.[/QUOTE]

Kudos, that was a good line...

KB24PG16
02-08-2009, 11:33 PM
it was unreal. possibly the best shot i have ever seen. see im not a hater. i give respect where respect is due.

Kobe - 3 time champ
LBJ - self proclaimed savior without a jumpshot

respect :clap: cant say that bout other boston fans

theuuord
02-08-2009, 11:35 PM
lol @ lamar odom having the game of his life and that somehow making kobe the best player in the universe.

jackyyy
02-08-2009, 11:41 PM
goooood game by lamar.

lebron had a bad day
:/

Rocco007
02-08-2009, 11:42 PM
I was confident about his game. Cleveland doesnt match up well against us. We're just as long but more athletic. Our bigs present issues..and most importantly, Lebron won't beat us because Kobe won't permit it..
Great road trip..I think as much as we go diehard, I'm must admit I'm impressed that we didn't drop one game..
We should be feeling pretty good about ourselves..Its makes you wonder what turn we'll take now..OkC at home must be a blowout, followed by a win in Utah..If we take care of business before the break, I believe we have finally arrived this season..

G-Funk
02-08-2009, 11:43 PM
Why are you assuming that I just have biasness towards James? I think Bryant is the MVP this year and the best player in the game. But just because I think that Kobe didn't outplay Lebron in every phase of the game today I am now a Kobe hater and a LeBron lover? :laugh2:

:clap:

lakers4sho
02-08-2009, 11:54 PM
lol @ lamar odom having the game of his life and that somehow making kobe the best player in the universe.

Nope. Kobe [ and the Laker team defense ] shut LeBron James down, which shows why LeBron James isn't the best player in the game.

Nice try though.

theuuord
02-08-2009, 11:56 PM
Nope. Kobe [ and the Laker team defense ] shut LeBron James down, which shows why LeBron James isn't the best player in the game.

Nice try though.

lol @ a guy almost having a triple-double being "shut down."

Yeah, he had a bad shooting game. Most players do sometimes. He still dished out 12 assists and pulled down 8 boards.
The Lakers are just a better overall team than the Cavs. There's no doubt about that, IMO. But LeBron is definitely a more impactful force than Kobe...

Brooke
02-09-2009, 12:01 AM
lol @ a guy almost having a triple-double being "shut down."

Yeah, he had a bad shooting game. Most players do sometimes. He still dished out 12 assists and pulled down 8 boards.
The Lakers are just a better overall team than the Cavs. There's no doubt about that, IMO. But LeBron is definitely a more impactful force than Kobe...

well it isnt a cuidence that twice against the Lakers this year he didnt shoot good at all

theuuord
02-09-2009, 12:06 AM
well it isnt a cuidence that twice against the Lakers this year he shot horrible

i hope you mean coincidence. (you're lucky linguistics is way more important than grammar to me.)

And, for what it's worth, in his career he's scored 30+ on the Lakers four times, has had 7+ assists five times, and 8+ rebounds seven times.
Not to mention last year's absolute doozy against them:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280127013

there's no real precedent for him playing badly against the Lakers. bad shooting games happen to every player.

LAKERS 24/7
02-09-2009, 12:07 AM
it was unreal. possibly the best shot i have ever seen. see im not a hater. i give respect where respect is due.

Kobe - 3 time champ
LBJ - self proclaimed savior without a jumpshot

respect for your ability to see without hate. you have single handedly made me realize not all boston fans are douches.

what54!?
02-09-2009, 12:09 AM
damn kobe was sick and still outplayed lebron in his house. I think the MVP title just switched........

Brooke
02-09-2009, 12:12 AM
i hope you mean coincidence. (you're lucky linguistics is way more important than grammar to me.)

And, for what it's worth, in his career he's scored 30+ on the Lakers four times, has had 7+ assists five times, and 8+ rebounds seven times.
Not to mention last year's absolute doozy against them:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280127013

there's no real precedent for him playing badly against the Lakers. bad shooting games happen to every player.

Yes he has had good games against the Lakers in the past but that was the past, he is horrid shooting wise against them this year.

You wanna be the best, you play well in games like this, I dont see shooting 5/20 as a good night

sp1derm00
02-09-2009, 12:13 AM
Lebron shot 5-20. I'd say that is pretty effectively shut down. The Lakers were only giving him jumpers, and no, Lebron is not good at shooting jumpers. When Lebron drove in, he couldn't finish. He was something like 2-9 inside or something...

Lebron's assists came from the Lakers shutting down Lebron and letting other players score. They let everyone but Lebron score tonight, and it turned out pretty effective.

Lebron's rebounding... he's 6'9 270lbs and was in there for 40 minutes playing Forward. He better have 8 rebounds.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 12:15 AM
Yes he has had good games against the Lakers in the past but that was the past, he is horrid shooting wise against them this year. The Lakers took away his strength simple as that

You wanna be the best, you have to play well in games like this, I dont see shooting 5/20 as a good night

Games like this? it was a sunday afternoon game in February between two teams that are 100% guaranteed to make the playoffs. What kind of pressure is there on this game?

Technically the game today is now "in the past." You can't just pick and choose your boundaries. Against essentially the exact same team last year he scored 41. this year he scores 16 along with a 12-8. sounds fine to me.

Did he have his best game? of course not. shooting 25% sucks no matter how you shoot it. But to ignore the rest of the games as an entire season and focus on just one moment to define a player comparison is just a journalistic style that's good for stories, but not for real evaluation.

lakers4sho
02-09-2009, 12:43 AM
lol @ a guy almost having a triple-double being "shut down."

Yeah, he had a bad shooting game. Most players do sometimes. He still dished out 12 assists and pulled down 8 boards.
The Lakers are just a better overall team than the Cavs. There's no doubt about that, IMO. But LeBron is definitely a more impactful force than Kobe...


Here is a thing I wrote up as an auto-reply type thing when people argue Kobe and LeBron.

No, numbers don't make you a better player. Being a good basketball player means having a well rounded set of skills that allow you to play better than you probably should. Kobe's body is average for the NBA (6'6 220). On the other hand, his amazing skill set makes him the best. LeBron has the most freakish body the NBA has ever seen, yet he can't hit a jumper or defend with regularity. If LeBron worked on his game to the point he had Kobe's skills, he would be the most destructive force the NBA has ever seen and would probably average 40 PPG / 10 RPG / 8 APG. Because he doesn't have a jumper, he has to get into the lane to get his points. By doing that, he's going to wear his body out to all the hits he is taking.

LeBron is prone to get more RPG, he is a FORWARD and the SF job is generally to crash the offensive boards. That's why SF get pretty good RPG. On the APG, he is basically their PG. He is big and can pass over guys. That doesn't take as much talent as Kobe being doubled and having to wiggle his way to get enough room to get the ball to somebody open. LeBron's body and position gears him to get more #s in terms of RPG and APG. That said, his RPG and APG arn't that much higher than the much smaller Kobe who is a GUARD, not a FORWARD.

What you have to do in looking at #s is ask how they get those numbers. LeBron gets RPG as he is a forward and is in the lane all the time. Kobe gets almost 6 RPG even though he is a guard and is on the perimeter most of the time. So which is more impressive 7 RPG from a guy that SHOULD get 7 RPG or 6 RPG from a guy who plays a position that generally averages 4 RPG or less? The top 4 rebounders at SF average 7.3 RPG. Guess what LeBron averages...7.5 RPG. How's that specatcular given Gerald Wallace averages 7.1 and doesn't have near the body? The top 4 SG average 5.3 RPG (..and if you call Rudy Gay a SF, Kobe is the #1 rebounder at SG). Kobe averages 5.6 RPG. They both slightly top the RPG for the best guys at their respective positions. That would lead me to believe they're about equal at rebounding. You see LeBron gets more RPG, but you don't realize they both slightly better the best at their positions.

On APG, LeBron has 7 APG and is the PG for that team. Yes, he plays SF, but he really plays Point Forward. His job is to get the ball, drive and score or drive and kick. Given he is basically a PG, he should get more than 7 APG. On the other hand, Kobe is a SG and doesn't run the offense all game long. The reason he gets 5.1 APG is the fact he gets doubled and tripled on the perimeter because he has this skill called shooting. When he does, he passes to open guys. So to get 2 APG less than a PG is pretty good. Again, LeBron has more, but you don't take into account why. Again, they're pretty equal.

Their PPG is really close too, so let's go over other things. Defense, clearly Kobe. If anybody would argue that, they're crazy. Clutch, clearly Kobe. LeBron has one game winning bucket, Kobe has a ton. For example, he popped a 3 from downtown Detroit to send a game in the Finals to OT. He also hit the shot in OT against the Suns to win that game in the playoffs as well. Shooting, again, clearly Kobe. LeBron can't shoot 3s, FTs, jumpers, nothing. Kobe bases everything he does off his great jumpshot.

When you break it down, there is absolutely no argument that can be made to say LeBron is better than Kobe....none.

again, I'm gonna have to quote muh main man lakersrock.

His post pretty much sums it up.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 12:48 AM
again, I'm gonna have to quote muh main man lakersrock.

His post pretty much sums it up.

are you really quoting a post that says "numbers don't make you a better player" and then based an entire argument on a fundamentally flawed breakdown of numbers???

really?!?

that sums up nothing except that a Lakers fan made an argument with one glaring hypocrisy and didn't even have the decency to due a proper statistical evaluation.

lakers4sho
02-09-2009, 12:55 AM
are you really quoting a post that says "numbers don't make you a better player" and then based an entire argument on a fundamentally flawed breakdown of numbers???

really?!?

that sums up nothing except that a Lakers fan made an argument with one glaring hypocrisy and didn't even have the decency to due a proper statistical evaluation.

Care to explain why it is fundamentally flawed??

It makes perfect sense that because the offense starts at him and he controls the ball most of the time, that he is bound to get the assists. And his size permits him to crash the boards with relative ease.

On the other hand, Kobe's a guard who is in a system that doesn't allow for a player to have a high number of assists, and plays with capable big men [ Gasol, Bynum, and Odom ] for him not to waste his energy of getting rebounds. Still, Kobe is 2nd among guards in rebounds and 5th among SGs in assists.

oakfan4life1983
02-09-2009, 12:57 AM
again, I'm gonna have to quote muh main man lakersrock.

His post pretty much sums it up.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
very well said lakersrock

theuuord
02-09-2009, 01:01 AM
Care to explain why it is fundamentally flawed??

It makes perfect sense that because the offense starts at him and he controls the ball most of the time, that he is bound to get the assists. And his size permits him to crash the boards with relative ease.

On the other hand, Kobe's a guard who is in a system that doesn't allow for a player to have a high number of assists, and plays with capable big men [ Gasol, Bynum, and Odom ] for him not to waste his energy of getting rebounds. Still, Kobe is 2nd among guards in rebounds and 5th among SGs in assists.

uhhhhhhh, is it not blatantly obvious?

the idea starts with "numbers don't make you a better player."

he then proceeds to run down an entire list using numbers to prove that Kobe is a better player. (which he doesn't really do - all that basic study does is show that they are equal at best.)

does it make sense yet? the, you know, glaring contradiction?
i bolded it for you in case you miss it this time.

also, you note that he has "capable big men" in your defense of why he doesn't get rebounds, but at the same time completely ignore that those "capable big men" are a huge part of his assist numbers.

and not only that, he uses the most basic of stats - not even per 36 minutes, which is flawed, and not rate stats, which is what he SHOULD have used to due a proper statistical evaluation. not to mention not even including shooting percentages, offensive rating, etc.

YankeeFan89
02-09-2009, 01:03 AM
I wish it was more of a kobe vs lebron game. =/

lakers4sho
02-09-2009, 01:09 AM
uhhhhhhh, is it not blatantly obvious?

the idea starts with "numbers don't make you a better player."

he then proceeds to run down an entire list using numbers to prove that Kobe is a better player. (which he doesn't really do - all that basic study does is show that they are equal at best.)

Did you even read his post?? He didn't use numbers exactly to prove that Kobe's better, he used LeBron James's numbers as a proof that stats don't tell the whole story.



also, you note that he has "capable big men" in your defense of why he doesn't get rebounds, but at the same time completely ignore that those "capable big men" are a huge part of his assist numbers.

and your point is?? That Kobe should get more assists because he has capable big men playing alongside him??


and not only that, he uses the most basic of stats - not even per 36 minutes, which is flawed, and not rate stats, which is what he SHOULD have used to due a proper statistical evaluation. not to mention not even including shooting percentages, offensive rating, etc.

oh yes...because LeBron has a better shooting percentage than Bryant :rolleyes:

Don't rely on "statistical evaluation" too much muh man. Not to mention that James is also a worse defender than Bryant, which isn't reflected on your everyday boxscore.

lakers4sho
02-09-2009, 01:11 AM
I wish it was more of a kobe vs lebron game. =/

Even if it was a Kobe vs. LeBron game, it would still be decided on whose teammates stepped up the most.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 01:18 AM
Did you even read his post?? He didn't use numbers exactly to prove that Kobe's better, he used LeBron James's numbers as a proof that stats don't tell the whole story.

Oh I read it. Did you read the part where he was trying to convince you that numbers don't tell the whole story, by using rebounding numbers?
Or that because Kobe is smaller, his assists per game is lower? (By the way, what the hell does that matter? Have y'all not noticed that Chris Paul, who is like four foot seven, is leading the league in assists?)




and your point is?? That Kobe should get more assists because he has capable big men playing alongside him??

My point is that you can't pick and choose when something is relevant and when something is not. You have to take the entire picture. If you're going to give Kobe credit for rebounding when he has capable big men, you also have to realize that those big men scoring is a reason why his assist totals are good as well.




oh yes...because LeBron has a better shooting percentage than Bryant :rolleyes:

Don't rely on "statistical evaluation" too much muh man. Not to mention that James is also a worse defender than Bryant, which isn't reflected on your everyday boxscore.

Oh it can be. You'd be surprised. There are a LOT of flaws to individual defense and it will never be fully reflected in either statistical or empirical evaluation, but there are definitely metrics that can be used to better parse a player's defensive abilities.

and what the hell are you rolling your eyes about? Look at any multi-encompassing shooting metric - TS%, eFG%, hell even shooting percentage alone - and LeBron comes out ahead.
Kobe is a better long-distance shooter, but even those capabilities don't even the gap (eFG% accounts for threes).

Kobe is a top-five NBA player in the league. This is not a knock on Kobe Bryant, so don't act like I'm deriding your favorite player and say I'm equating him to Brent Barry or something. But to act like there's no argument that can be made for LeBron being better than Kobe... well that's just being blind, man.

dsonLAL24
02-09-2009, 01:21 AM
it was boring

yea i know the celtics spurs game was BORING.

Zefflin
02-09-2009, 01:27 AM
Kobe is a top-five NBA player in the league.

:laugh:



Oh and one more thing...


:laugh2:

theuuord
02-09-2009, 01:40 AM
:laugh:



Oh and one more thing...


:laugh2:

what's funny about that? he's an unbelievable player and a sure-fire Hall of Famer. Him, along with Paul, LeBron, Wade, and probably Howard or Garnett (although if Yao was healthy more often he'd be in the discussion) round out the top 5...

S.J.Basketball
02-09-2009, 01:44 AM
I think Mark Jackson said it best(I think it was him): Stats are like a sexy bikini. It may be nice to look at, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Done.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 01:47 AM
People who use stats to judge either A. don't watch that many games of that particular player or B. Don't know anything about basketball. Chris Paul is always racking up the assists and sometimes gets up there with rebounds for a PG, does it mean he's a better player than Kobe? no.

Lebron is always gonna have high assists because he controls the whole offense, and the rebounds, well that's obvious why, he's bigger and plays SF.

The triangle offense doesn't allow ONE player control the whole offense, you throw it in the post and your big man either makes a play or kicks it to the open shooter who's man left him for the player in the post, and if that shooter is not open then he passes it to the next one forming the triangle and so on, so there's a lot of ball movement.

Cavs' offense is usually Lebron penetrating and kicking it or making a play in the paint, which was shut down tonight. People who say Lebron didn't get shut down just don't wanna give any credit to LA, he had 16 points on 5-20, how is that not getting shut down when he averages 28 points and gets to the rim at will at any given time he wants to?

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 01:50 AM
it was unreal. possibly the best shot i have ever seen. see im not a hater. i give respect where respect is due.

Kobe - 3 time champ
LBJ - self proclaimed savior without a jumpshot

I'm quite shocked here :D That's not common on this forum.

Zefflin
02-09-2009, 01:50 AM
what's funny about that? he's an unbelievable player and a sure-fire Hall of Famer. Him, along with Paul, LeBron, Wade, and probably Howard or Garnett (although if Yao was healthy more often he'd be in the discussion) round out the top 5...

1. Kobe


2. Lebron

3. Wade
4. CP3
5. Howard
6. Duncan

Plus 3-6 are all interchangable.

The fact that you're putting Yao in the conversation of top 5 nba players is bewildering.

soundjunkies2
02-09-2009, 01:51 AM
what's funny about that? he's an unbelievable player and a sure-fire Hall of Famer. Him, along with Paul, LeBron, Wade, and probably Howard or Garnett (although if Yao was healthy more often he'd be in the discussion) round out the top 5...

Throw Timmy Duncan in there over KG or howard.That would round out the top 5.


Back to the thread:The lakers proved their the best in the NBA with this win and i wonder how many people voted after the game was over :rolleyes:

ElMarroAfamado
02-09-2009, 01:53 AM
People who use stats to judge either A. don't watch that many games of that particular player or B. Don't know anything about basketball. Chris Paul is always racking up the assists and sometimes gets up there with rebounds for a PG, does it mean he's a better player than Kobe? no.

Lebron is always gonna have high assists because he controls the whole offense, and the rebounds, well that's obvious why, he's bigger and plays SF.

The triangle offense doesn't allow ONE player control the whole offense, you throw it in the post and your big man either makes a play or kicks it to the open shooter who's man left him for the player in the post, and if that shooter is not open then he passes it to the next one forming the triangle and so on, so there's a lot of ball movement.

Cavs' offense is usually Lebron penetrating and kicking it or making a play in the paint, which was shut down tonight. People who say Lebron didn't get shut down just don't wanna give any credit to LA, he had 16 points on 5-20, how is that not getting shut down when he averages 28 points and gets to the rim at will at any given time he wants to?

Finally.:clap:

theuuord
02-09-2009, 01:55 AM
I think Mark Jackson said it best(I think it was him): Stats are like a sexy bikini. It may be nice to look at, but it doesn't tell the whole story.

Done.

Find me one person - statistical evaluator or not - that argues that stats tell the whole story.

(hint: don't actually try. you won't find one.)

Just because some of us both watch the games AND understand the importance of stats doesn't mean that more knowledge is less power.





What's funny about most anti-stathead arguments is that they're all based in nonsensical arguments. like "oh, he pays attention to stats, he must not watch the games." No. Not at all. as a matter of fact, most of us watch as many games as anyone on the planet. it's an obsession with basketball.
Stats aren't just made out of thin air. They are a representation of what happens on the court. It's not like some random God-like figure in the sky just attributes a .428 shooting percentage to Hedo Turkoglu or something. (Note: not his real shooting percentage. Just a made up figure.)

So many things that people are blind to that they want to pretend they know. People will remember the flashy dunk (anyone who watches Sportscenter will), but the boring 15 foot midrange jumper is lost in time. Erstwhile, they both add up to 2 points - so in the end, neither is better.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 01:56 AM
1. Kobe


2. Lebron

3. Wade
4. CP3
5. Howard
6. Duncan

Plus 3-6 are all interchangable.

The fact that you're putting Yao in the conversation of top 5 nba players is bewildering.

I said when healthy, which is entirely true. Anyone who disagrees with that doesn't understand how important Yao is when healthy.

Duncan is also in the discussion in the top 5-ish with Howard, Garnett, etc.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:03 AM
Find me one person - statistical evaluator or not - that argues that stats tell the whole story.

(hint: don't actually try. you won't find one.)

Just because some of us both watch the games AND understand the importance of stats doesn't mean that more knowledge is less power.





What's funny about most anti-stathead arguments is that they're all based in nonsensical arguments. like "oh, he pays attention to stats, he must not watch the games." No. Not at all. as a matter of fact, most of us watch as many games as anyone on the planet. it's an obsession with basketball.
Stats aren't just made out of thin air. They are a representation of what happens on the court. It's not like some random God-like figure in the sky just attributes a .428 shooting percentage to Hedo Turkoglu or something. (Note: not his real shooting percentage. Just a made up figure.)

So many things that people are blind to that they want to pretend they know. People will remember the flashy dunk (anyone who watches Sportscenter will), but the boring 15 foot midrange jumper is lost in time. Erstwhile, they both add up to 2 points - so in the end, neither is better.

Believe it or not a lot of people do base on stats alone. I'm not saying stats are useless but basing it on stats ALONE is just stupid, and a lot of people do that. People never wanna use the intangibles to describe a player from what I've seen here. See my Chris Paul argument in my last post.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:06 AM
People who use stats to judge either A. don't watch that many games of that particular player or B. Don't know anything about basketball. Chris Paul is always racking up the assists and sometimes gets up there with rebounds for a PG, does it mean he's a better player than Kobe? no.

Okay, I'll take five guys with Chris Paul's (who looks like an unassuming, pretty athletic but short guy) skill level on my team. You take five Sean Williams (who, at a glance with no knowledge of stats, looks tailor-made to be an unbelievable PF).

You'll win, right? Because stats don't matter.

:rolleyes:

You are exactly the guy I was talking about in my previous post. Because people who pay attention to stats NEVER watch games. We just sit in our basements with a Microsoft Excel sheet, hoping to finally crack this thing our friends told us about the outside world called "basketball." I actually don't really know what it is. I think it's some circus act.

Please don't assume you know anything about anyone else who evaluates basketball talent. and don't put on this false notion that stats are completely unimportant.


Lebron is always gonna have high assists because he controls the whole offense, and the rebounds, well that's obvious why, he's bigger and plays SF.

Again, why are we saying it's bad that LeBron is bigger? What does that matter at all?
If you have a guy that's 7'5 and gets 15 rebounds a game or a guy who's 6'11 and gets 11 rebounds a game, all other things equal I want the 7'5 guy. He's doing more for the team overall. Screw the whole "tries harder" BS, these guys are all getting paid millions to perform regardless of height.
Give me the better player either way.

Now, if you want to talk about position relativity, that's an entirely different thing. But don't act like it's irrelevant.


The triangle offense doesn't allow ONE player control the whole offense, you throw it in the post and your big man either makes a play or kicks it to the open shooter who's man left him for the player in the post, and if that shooter is not open then he passes it to the next one forming the triangle and so on, so there's a lot of ball movement.

That's true. LeBron must use up a TON more possessions than Kobe, right?

LeBron's usage rate: 34.4%
Kobe's usage rate: 32.2%

OH NO! A STAT! RUN FOR THE HILLS! PROTECT THE CHILDREN!

After all that, Kobe and LeBron essentially use the same amount of possessions on their team. LeBron uses 2 more per 100 possessions, and (scarily enough) is actually more efficient with them.
Damn, LeBron is good.


Cavs' offense is usually Lebron penetrating and kicking it or making a play in the paint, which was shut down tonight. People who say Lebron didn't get shut down just don't wanna give any credit to LA, he had 16 points on 5-20, how is that not getting shut down when he averages 28 points and gets to the rim at will at any given time he wants to?

LeBron had a bad game. Again. It happens. He shot terribly. The Lakers are the best team in the NBA, I already said that, so clearly I'm giving them credit. They are the best team in the NBA. (There, I gave them credit twice.) He still pulled down 8 rebounds and dished out 8 assists. He almost had a triple-double on an off night. How crazy is THAT?




by the way, this whole per-game stat stuff is so ancient and archaic. Can we all move into reality and start using rate stats? Thanks.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:07 AM
Believe it or not a lot of people do base on stats alone. I'm not saying stats are useless but basing it on stats ALONE is just stupid, and a lot of people do that. People never wanna use the intangibles to describe a player from what I've seen here. See my Chris Paul argument in my last post.

What are YOU talking about? Everyone in this post is using intangibles to describe players! I'm the only one who is using both intangible AND tangible analysis.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:20 AM
Okay, I'll take five guys with Chris Paul's (who looks like an unassuming, pretty athletic but short guy) skill level on my team. You take five Sean Williams (who, at a glance with no knowledge of stats, looks tailor-made to be an unbelievable PF.

You didn't even understand what I meant, I brought him up to show that Hornets offense runs completely through him.


That's true. LeBron must use up a TON more possessions than Kobe, right?

LeBron's usage rate: 34.4%
Kobe's usage rate: 32.2%

OH NO! A STAT! RUN FOR THE HILLS! PROTECT THE CHILDREN!

After all that, Kobe and LeBron essentially use the same amount of possessions on their team. LeBron uses 2 more per 100 possessions, and (scarily enough) is actually more efficient with them.
Damn, LeBron is good.


Again I don't care what that stat shows, the only reason Kobe is that close is because the Laker team sometimes rely on him too much in the 4th and fall asleep on Kobe, if you watched Laker games you'd know that. Lakers offense doesn't run through one person like most of the Cavs' offense does. If you do watch Laker games you'd also notice that assists are usually spread across the board, I wonder why.

Teeboy1487
02-09-2009, 02:23 AM
Everyone should stop, Kobe is better than Lebron, Lebron is a better rebounder and passer than kobe. Kobe is just better than Lebron no doubt about it. Even, Lebron would say kobe is better than him.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:29 AM
You didn't even understand what I meant, I brought him up to show that Hornets offense runs completely through him.


lol, and you completely missed the point. Chris Paul was just an example. I could use two or three hundred different players, I just chose him.



Again I don't care what that stat shows, the only reason Kobe is that close is because the Laker team sometimes rely on him too much in the 4th and fall asleep on Kobe, if you watched Laker games you'd know that. Lakers offense doesn't run through one person like most of the Cavs' offense does. If you do watch Laker games you'd also notice that assists are usually spread across the board, I wonder why.

Prove this. Don't just say it and pretend it makes sense. Show me the facts. Prove that you know what you're talking about.
For what it's worth, Kobe has played 311 4th quarter minutes in 41 games (not including today), good for less than 8 minutes per 4th quarter, and around 110th in the league. That doesn't sound like they rely on him a lot in that last period.
Now, if you look deeper, it's true that they do rely on him a lot when he's in the game in that 4th quarter. But that sample size is not nearly enough to adjust the number so equal to LeBron's.
He just uses a lot of possessions all the time. (Pretty efficiently, too. It's a good thing.)

But then again, if you paid attention to stats, you'd know that.

Re: assists,
I mean, Kobe averages about five, no one else averages more than four... kind of spread out, I guess, but not really. Not so much that it's obviously spread.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:30 AM
Everyone should stop, Kobe is better than Lebron, Lebron is a better rebounder and passer than kobe. Kobe is just better than Lebron no doubt about it. Even, Lebron would say kobe is better than him.

W/e. Odom is shooting 34% from 3 which isn't really too bad but me and most Laker fans cringe every time he shoots a three because he doesn't have good range. Then you get Hubie Brown saying Odom is a good 3 point shooter every time he sees him.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:31 AM
lol, and you completely missed the point. Chris Paul was just an example. I could use two or three hundred different players, I just chose him.




Prove this. Don't just say it and pretend it makes sense. Show me the facts. Prove that you know what you're talking about.
For what it's worth, Kobe has played 311 4th quarter minutes in 41 games (not including today), good for less than 8 minutes per 4th quarter, and around 110th in the league. That doesn't sound like they rely on him a lot in that last period.
Now, if you look deeper, it's true that they do rely on him a lot when he's in the game in that 4th quarter. But that sample size is not nearly enough to adjust the number so equal to LeBron's.
He just uses a lot of possessions all the time. (Pretty efficiently, too. It's a good thing.)

But then again, if you paid attention to stats, you'd know that.

Re: assists,
I mean, Kobe averages about five, no one else averages more than four... kind of spread out, I guess, but not really. Not so much that it's obviously spread.

Like I said you'd have to watch Laker games every other night to know what I'm talking about, if you don't then I cant prove it sadly cuz it's not a "stat".

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:33 AM
W/e. Odom is shooting 34% from 3 which isn't really too bad but me and most Laker fans cringe every time he shoots a three because he doesn't have good range. Then you get Hubie Brown saying Odom is a good 3 point shooter every time he sees him.

And this is the most interesting part of it all. That you think it's about fan psychology, rather than production.

Let me ask you this.

Would you rather have a guy who had a real sweet, comfortable stroke that looked good and never made you "cringe" - but only shot 28% from three, or Lamar Odom, who shoots 34% from three but makes you worried whenever he shoots it?

Me? I take Lamar Odom every every every time.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:34 AM
Like I said you'd have to watch Laker games every other night to know what I'm talking about, if you don't then I cant prove it sadly cuz it's not a "stat".

Quite the contrary. Usage rate per quarter is a stat. Look for it, and back up your claims.

If you can't cite your sources there's no point in making points.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:35 AM
Quite the contrary. Usage rate per quarter is a stat. Look for it, and back up your claims.

If you can't cite your sources there's no point in making points.

If you don't even watch the player youre arguing against there's no point in making points...I can do that too..

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:36 AM
And this is the most interesting part of it all. That you think it's about fan psychology, rather than production.

Let me ask you this.

Would you rather have a guy who had a real sweet, comfortable stroke that looked good and never made you "cringe" - but only shot 28% from three, or Lamar Odom, who shoots 34% from three but makes you worried whenever he shoots it?

Me? I take Lamar Odom every every every time.

What does shooting stance have to do with anything? It's a fact that Odom is not a good shooter cuz he's not consistent at all.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:39 AM
If you don't even watch the player youre arguing against there's no point in making points...I can do that too..

Oh my God that's my point. I DO. I do watch games. I watch games whenever I can. I see highlights all the time. I pay attention. I see Kobe Bryant making ridiculous looking shots over LeBron James. I see him knocking down threes in defender's faces. I watched him and Pau Gasol light up the Celtics in an overtime thriller like three days ago. I do pay attention.

Just because I know more because I choose to research doesn't make my point less valid.

And, unless you're Larry Brown, I doubt you can remember every play, every possession, every ball movement from every game the Lakers play, so you use a selective memory (like all of us do) to parse what you evaluate in terms of games.

Tell me: if you really thought the Lakers overly relied on Bryant in the 4th quarter day in and day out, then why do the "stats" show he only plays less than 8 minutes per 4th quarter?
That's less than any other quarter he plays in.
It's selective memory.


Now, again: in clutch situations in 4th quarters, they do rely on Kobe quite a bit. It's true. Him and Gasol basically run close and late games. But for the most part, they don't have those, so Kobe rests. Thus, making your point invalid.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:42 AM
What does shooting stance have to do with anything? It's a fact that Odom is not a good shooter cuz he's not consistent at all.

Are you really serious right now?

Do you not get the point of the question?

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:45 AM
Oh my God that's my point. I DO. I do watch games. I watch games whenever I can. I see highlights all the time. I pay attention. I see Kobe Bryant making ridiculous looking shots over LeBron James. I see him knocking down threes in defender's faces. I watched him and Pau Gasol light up the Celtics in an overtime thriller like three days ago. I do pay attention.

Just because I know more because I choose to research doesn't make my point less valid.

And, unless you're Larry Brown, I doubt you can remember every play, every possession, every ball movement from every game the Lakers play, so you use a selective memory (like all of us do) to parse what you evaluate in terms of games.

Tell me: if you really thought the Lakers overly relied on Bryant in the 4th quarter day in and day out, then why do the "stats" show he only plays less than 8 minutes per 4th quarter?
That's less than any other quarter he plays in.
It's selective memory.


Now, again: in clutch situations in 4th quarters, they do rely on Kobe quite a bit. It's true. Him and Gasol basically run close and late games. But for the most part, they don't have those, so Kobe rests. Thus, making your point invalid.

The fact that you don't know that just shows that you don't watch Laker games every day like I do or any other LA fan, why am I even arguing with someone who doesn't watch the team he's arguing against night in and night out? Peace!

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 02:48 AM
Are you really serious right now?

Do you not get the point of the question?

And one more thing, yes I did get what you mean but the only reason why I cringe when he shoots 3s is because he's not CONSISTENT.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:48 AM
The fact that you don't know that just shows that you don't watch Laker games every day like I do or any other LA fan, why am I even arguing with someone who doesn't watch the team he's arguing against night in and night out? Peace!

LOL! I KNOW the answer!
but that's my point precisely! He sits so he can rest during the games they don't need him, so obviously they don't rely on him in the 4th quarter, thus making your earlier point re: LeBron and usage rates completely meaningless.

Thanks for ruining your original argument and proving me right twice with one post.
You've done well. Now hopefully your thickheadedness tonight will ease up by morning, and you'll actually understand why I asked you that question.

markhebert42
02-09-2009, 02:49 AM
Biggie says:

People get mad, I get more butts than ashtrays, **** a fair one, I get mine the fast way.

Bless 2pac and Biggie ... and the Lakers.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:50 AM
And one more thing, yes I did get what you mean but the only reason why I cringe when he shoots 3s is because he's not CONSISTENT.

You're still dodging the answer to the question.

You know what? I'll humor you. I'm going to sleep soon because I have to catch a bus early tomorrow, but I'll even rephrase the question.

Would you rather have a "consistent" 28% three point shooter or an "inconsistent" 34% three point shooter taking the same amount of shots?

Chronz
02-09-2009, 02:51 AM
The fact that you don't know that just shows that you don't watch Laker games every day like I do or any other LA fan, why am I even arguing with someone who doesn't watch the team he's arguing against night in and night out? Peace!

ive seen every lakers game his question is valid now answer it

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:53 AM
ive seen every lakers game his question is valid now answer it

he won't. he won't answer any of them. because he can't.

when people stray from hard facts, they rely on soft memory. i have one too. no one is exempt from that.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 02:55 AM
http://nbarumors.webs.com/index.htm

Seems like the Cav's loss to the Lakers is a bigger deal then just a L on the Loss column. Report in website indicates that the Cav's might need to trade for a big man if they want to be the contenders they envision themselves to be.

That's definitely true. The Cavs seemingly don't have a big man presence strong enough to take a title (which, if LeBron can lead them to, puts him in serious Jordan territory).

lakers4sho
02-09-2009, 11:07 AM
Find me one person - statistical evaluator or not - that argues that stats tell the whole story.

(hint: don't actually try. you won't find one.)

Does John Hollinger ring a bell?? :laugh2:

prodigy
02-09-2009, 11:15 AM
http://nbarumors.webs.com/index.htm

Seems like the Cav's loss to the Lakers is a bigger deal then just a L on the Loss column. Report in website indicates that the Cav's might need to trade for a big man if they want to be the contenders they envision themselves to be.



your alittle slow there pal. I love this loss for my cavs because it proves to the front office we need another all-star type player. Which will then pretty much lock us for the finals.

prodigy
02-09-2009, 11:17 AM
Would you rather have a "consistent" 28% three point shooter or an "inconsistent" 34% three point shooter taking the same amount of shots?


I'd rather have a team player. (lebron)

BTownTeamsRKing
02-09-2009, 11:19 AM
Does John Hollinger ring a bell?? :laugh2:

his stats are so flawed. i dont have time to show details, but his formula is mostly messed up because he makes every stat count evenly. which is wrong to do.

example)
Celtics began a historic 27-2.
Cavs were up there, but not quite that good, yet he had the Cavs infront throughout the entire 19 game win streak.
Why? because they had larger margin of victory, which everyone knows is affected by many things, but for one thing being how much does a team play its starters when a game is already decided.

Hollinger failed attemping to make stats count in power rankings. it does NOT work.

BCS?!?! Anyone??

BTownTeamsRKing
02-09-2009, 11:26 AM
I'm quite shocked here :D That's not common on this forum.

haha well cleveland now hates me so i hope your not just agreeing because kobe is your favorite player.

truthfully, i got Kobe and D-wade tied for best in the world.

dont look past Wade. lucky for us, his team SUCKS because if he had a team around him like Pierce, Kobe, and Lebron, o damn we are efed. lol

im a bit biased though because i like SGs and PGs because thats wat i play when I ball.

kingkobe
02-09-2009, 02:02 PM
And one more thing, yes I did get what you mean but the only reason why I cringe when he shoots 3s is because he's not CONSISTENT.

Meaning of CONSISTENT: Reliable (source: http://www.answers.com/consistent)

So:

In math: 28% shooting < 33% shooting

In words: 28% shooting is less consistent than 34% shooting.

In other words: A person with 28% shooting is less likely to make the shot than a person with 33% shooting. Therefore, the person with 28% shooting is less CONSISTENT than a person with 33% shooting.

That's the whole point of looking at the %.

Just to clarify for some you guys. I hope it makes it easier.

albertc86
02-09-2009, 02:28 PM
Say what you want but LeBron looks intimidated by Kobe. Kobe was sick as hell yesterday and LeBron still had the respect not to test him. I've never seen LeBron look so unaggressive with the ball as when he does when Kobe is guarding him. Kobe still pulled off some great shots against LeBron like that rainbow fadeaway (which was the second time, by the way).

I agree with a previous poster. In my opinion, Wade is a more skilled player than LeBron. Like Kobe, Wade makes the game look so easy, and doesn't have to rely on his strength like LeBron.

BTownTeamsRKing
02-09-2009, 02:38 PM
Say what you want but LeBron looks intimidated by Kobe. Kobe was sick as hell yesterday and LeBron still had the respect not to test him. I've never seen LeBron look so unaggressive with the ball as when he does when Kobe is guarding him. Kobe still pulled off some great shots against LeBron like that rainbow fadeaway (which was the second time, by the way).

I agree with a previous poster. In my opinion, Wade is a more skilled player than LeBron. Like Kobe, Wade makes the game look so easy, and doesn't have to rely on his strength like LeBron.

yea thats me lol.

in 2010, i would do a backflip if the Celtics got D-Wade. again, its too bad his team sucks.

lakerboy
02-09-2009, 02:38 PM
Just leave the stats out the door. It's so ****ing stupid.

If you are going to base it on just statistics alone, then to you the LeBron James this season (28PTS 7REBS 7ASSTS) is probably already better than most, if not all of Michael Jordan's years in the NBA.

albertc86
02-09-2009, 02:46 PM
Just leave the stats out the door. It's so ****ing stupid.

If you are going to base it on just statistics alone, then to you the LeBron James this season (28PTS 7REBS 7ASSTS) is probably already better than most, if not all of Michael Jordan's years in the NBA.

Exactly. Stats are impertinent when discussing great players. There are so many variables that come into play --- skill should be judged on skill alone and not numbers.

fresh prince
02-09-2009, 03:03 PM
No Debate. Kobe still is the best player in the world. Until Lebron can show me he can shoot better then 29% from behind the arc, the it's not even a debate. How can you be considered the best in the world if you cannot even shoot a jumpshot?

:shrug::shrug:

Lebron is a Stat beast but his game just isnt complete enough for him to be considered the best player in the world. Especially when you have Kobe Bryant walking the planet..Bryant has no flaws in his game except for at times shot selection..

If were talking Fantasy hoops yea Lebron thanks to his skill set and the offense the Cavs run is clearly the best player in the game..

But in "real life" Kobe Bryant is STILL head and shoulders above the rest.

albertc86
02-09-2009, 03:05 PM
:shrug::shrug:

Lebron is a Stat beast but his game just isnt complete enough for him to be considered the best player in the world. Especially when you have Kobe Bryant walking the planet..Bryant has no flaws in his game except for at times shot selection..

If were talking Fantasy hoops yea Lebron thanks to his skill set and the offense the Cavs run is clearly the best player in the game..

But in "real life" Kobe Bryant is STILL head and shoulders above the rest.

Correct. However, Wade is not too far behind. He's closer than LeBron is, though.

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 03:11 PM
Meaning of CONSISTENT: Reliable (source: http://www.answers.com/consistent)

So:

In math: 28% shooting < 33% shooting

In words: 28% shooting is less consistent than 34% shooting.

In other words: A person with 28% shooting is less likely to make the shot than a person with 33% shooting. Therefore, the person with 28% shooting is less CONSISTENT than a person with 33% shooting.

That's the whole point of looking at the %.

Just to clarify for some you guys. I hope it makes it easier.

Really that's amazing I didn't know that:rolleyes:

That still doesn't prove anything, Odom is still not a reliable 3 point shooter.

This thread got off topic anyways, Like someone else said if you're gonna base off of stats then Lebron is better than Jordan too. Sorry but a one dimensional and predictable player can't be considered the best, teams are starting to figure out how to beat him lately and it's working, so until he develops a jumpshot or Kobe slows down, he's still # 2.

Chronz
02-09-2009, 04:20 PM
his stats are so flawed. i dont have time to show details, but his formula is mostly messed up because he makes every stat count evenly. which is wrong to do.

example)
Celtics began a historic 27-2.
Cavs were up there, but not quite that good, yet he had the Cavs infront throughout the entire 19 game win streak.
Why? because they had larger margin of victory, which everyone knows is affected by many things, but for one thing being how much does a team play its starters when a game is already decided.

Hollinger failed attemping to make stats count in power rankings. it does NOT work.

BCS?!?! Anyone??

LOL your so full of it

Lakers4ItAll
02-09-2009, 04:26 PM
Agreed


Correct. However, Wade is not too far behind. He's closer than LeBron is, though.

theuuord
02-09-2009, 05:56 PM
Does John Hollinger ring a bell?? :laugh2:

Hollinger thinks that stats can tell a large part of the story- specifically on offense - but does not believe that PER is the holy grail of basketball statistics.
It is a fairly good measure but not the ultimate.

Nice try, though.

(I love the anti-stat bias on this forum. Like people here ever make arguments without stats.)

GspLAL
02-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Hollinger thinks that stats can tell a large part of the story- specifically on offense - but does not believe that PER is the holy grail of basketball statistics.
It is a fairly good measure but not the ultimate.

Nice try, though.

(I love the anti-stat bias on this forum. Like people here ever make arguments without stats.)

The stat bias is towards those who use them and only them to justify their point, like most of ESPN and a lot of ppl in here.

basketfan4life
02-09-2009, 11:32 PM
lol @ a guy almost having a triple-double being "shut down."

Yeah, he had a bad shooting game. Most players do sometimes. He still dished out 12 assists and pulled down 8 boards.
The Lakers are just a better overall team than the Cavs. There's no doubt about that, IMO. But LeBron is definitely a more impactful force than Kobe...
dude,you are being funny.i wonder if you know a single thing about basketball..please be fair right now,all the peole here..look what kobe did for the lakers in this game,set the tone 1st quarter,lead the comeback 3rd quarter,ended the comeback of cavs 4th quarter with one of the bets shot i've ever seen..this is how you be more impactfull,if you can't realize the game technically,you go with all the stats stuff,then u can't see how kobe impacts the game.
also i have to say what said 255040385 times here,they just play different offences,this is what changes stats..lakers played that cleveland type of offense 7times in a row when farmar and luke was injured,to keep fisher untired,in that 7 game period kobe had 2 td's and averaged nearly 10asissts per game..this is the best example you can realize what is going on..

but lakers fans must be gladfull they don't play that type of offense and they play triangle,cause triangle wins you rings,and that proved 9 times,and 10 is coming soon,i hope with enough talent knicks will play thattype of offense someday..

if all you do is looking at stats i have to say that lebron is not better then dwayne wade...(from my perspective ,he is not better than wade too,independent of stats)

Chronz
02-10-2009, 03:23 PM
dude,you are being funny.i wonder if you know a single thing about basketball..please be fair right now,all the peole here..look what kobe did for the lakers in this game,set the tone 1st quarter,lead the comeback 3rd quarter,ended the comeback of cavs 4th quarter with one of the bets shot i've ever seen..this is how you be more impactfull,if you can't realize the game technically,you go with all the stats stuff,then u can't see how kobe impacts the game.
also i have to say what said 255040385 times here,they just play different offences,this is what changes stats..lakers played that cleveland type of offense 7times in a row when farmar and luke was injured,to keep fisher untired,in that 7 game period kobe had 2 td's and averaged nearly 10asissts per game..this is the best example you can realize what is going on..

but lakers fans must be gladfull they don't play that type of offense and they play triangle,cause triangle wins you rings,and that proved 9 times,and 10 is coming soon,i hope with enough talent knicks will play thattype of offense someday..

if all you do is looking at stats i have to say that lebron is not better then dwayne wade...(from my perspective ,he is not better than wade too,independent of stats)

LMAO Why is it that just about everyone who doesnt understand stats always acts like such an expert on them, that last line just about killed your cred.

The triangle is not some holy grail of offenses, Kobe played his basketball within the triangle, the year he was given free reign his game suffered as did his stats. But yes LeBron and Wade are definitely comparable.

Look you are right about Kobe being more impactfull than his stats, moreso than LeBron IMO, because he makes players around him much better than LeBron does.

GspLAL
02-10-2009, 04:37 PM
LMAO Why is it that just about everyone who doesnt understand stats always acts like such an expert on them, that last line just about killed your cred.

The triangle is not some holy grail of offenses, Kobe played his basketball within the triangle, the year he was given free reign his game suffered as did his stats. But yes LeBron and Wade are definitely comparable.

Look you are right about Kobe being more impactfull than his stats, moreso than LeBron IMO, because he makes players around him much better than LeBron does.

What year you talkin about?

Chronz
02-10-2009, 06:00 PM
What year you talkin about?

The brief stint with Rudy, he had Kobe operating primarily at the top of the key, spreading the floor with Chucky and Butler, Jones, and Odom.

Kenny
02-10-2009, 06:10 PM
This thread is becoming laughable.. Now Kobe makes his players around him better then Lebron??? haha whatever this board has more laker fans then any other so i'm not surprised.

GspLAL
02-10-2009, 06:14 PM
This thread is becoming laughable.. Now Kobe makes his players around him better then Lebron??? haha whatever this board has more laker fans then any other so i'm not surprised.

The person who said that is not a Laker fan I don't think..

Chronz
02-10-2009, 08:42 PM
This thread is becoming laughable.. Now Kobe makes his players around him better then Lebron??? haha whatever this board has more laker fans then any other so i'm not surprised.

What makes that laughable? Kobes game is beneficial to any type of player around him, I have a few theories about LeBron making specific type of players worse but Im not sold on it yet, in either case Im 100% certain Kobe is better, at making those around him better.

Bullsfan22
02-10-2009, 09:03 PM
What makes that laughable? Kobes game is beneficial to any type of player around him, I have a few theories about LeBron making specific type of players worse but Im not sold on it yet, in either case Im 100% certain Kobe is better, at making those around him better.

I'd like to hear how you come to that conclusion and why you think kobe makes his teammates better than lebron does. Kobe couldn't do anything with mediocre players before pau now your saying he makes his teammates better? who exactly does he make better on the lakers? pau gasol? NOT lamar odom? NOT.

On the other hand nobody on Lebron's team is as good as pau. He took a cavs team without mo williams to the finals. Lebron can do MORE without talent.

The cavs have a good TEAM and i agree with the people that say this is the best team around lebron ever but, by no means are any of those players on the same level as pau im sorry cav fans.

Kobe has a tremendous amount of talent on the lakers and i'd like to see how he makes them better. The most i credit kobe for is making bynum get his **** together by dissing him on camera. People seem to forget that pau gasol led a WESTERN CONFERENCE team to 50 wins on to seperate occasions.

Chronz
02-10-2009, 10:28 PM
I'd like to hear how you come to that conclusion and why you think kobe makes his teammates better than lebron does.
Years of watching him play and dissecting the stats (More on that later), he knows how to read the drives of other players better than Bron, when they make an aggressive attack Kobe is almost always in the proper position in terms of spacing, and because of his shooting ability defenders tend to stick to him giving his teammates a clearer view at the rim.

Ask any Laker fan when they see Kobe running the break with a ball handler and someone else on the opposite wing, they NEVER let Kobe get the dunk, this allows someone else to score thus helping them get in better rhythm.

Basically because he can play off of his teammates and is an effective scoring threat even when he doesnt have the ball. Lebron doesnt provide that. Early in the season it looked like coach Brown figured out how to better utilize Brons off the ball ability but its only when hes playing the 4 and is able to play primarily around the basket kind of like Karl Malone. When hes the 3, hes not as good at it because they dont run the same offense and teams dont respect him as much.


Kobe couldn't do anything with mediocre players before pau now your saying he makes his teammates better?
What do you mean? Why do you think he couldnt do anything? Last I checked they overachieved with him.


who exactly does he make better on the lakers? pau gasol? NOT
Yes, Pau makes Kobe better as well, hence theyre both more efficient and the team is a contender.


lamar odom? NOT.
Odom is a weird player, its hard to make him better because its all mental with him. But yes I do believe hes been better with Kobe.


On the other hand nobody on Lebron's team is as good as pau. He took a cavs team without mo williams to the finals. Lebron can do MORE without talent.
I fail to see how this makes him better at making others better


The cavs have a good TEAM and i agree with the people that say this is the best team around lebron ever but, by no means are any of those players on the same level as pau im sorry cav fans.
Thats true, whats your point?


Kobe has a tremendous amount of talent on the lakers and i'd like to see how he makes them better. The most i credit kobe for is making bynum get his **** together by dissing him on camera. People seem to forget that pau gasol led a WESTERN CONFERENCE team to 50 wins on to seperate occasions.

Hard to say with youngsters, they were going to improve regardless and Bynum was just as impressive when he came off the bench sans Kobe.

GspLAL
02-10-2009, 10:36 PM
Kobe couldn't do anything with mediocre players before pau now your saying he makes his teammates better? who exactly does he make better on the lakers? pau gasol? NOT lamar odom? NOT.

I hope you're not talking about the 05-07 season because his team was not even close to Lebron's team in those years, Lebrons team played good defense and also was pretty physical in a mediocre eastern conference (except for Detroit). If you mean last season then they overachieved tremendously, before the season even started they were talking about Lakers not even making the freakin playoffs. Before Gasol even came in Lakers were first place in the West (I forgot how long but they were up there), and were playing better defensively than after getting Gasol because of the way Bynum was playing.


On the other hand nobody on Lebron's team is as good as pau. He took a cavs team without mo williams to the finals. Lebron can do MORE without talent.

Like I said, Lebron's team might have not be strong offensively but they had great defense, add that with Lebron and you got a championship team (who got swept), did Kobe get swept? No!

basketfan4life
02-11-2009, 07:50 AM
LMAO Why is it that just about everyone who doesnt understand stats always acts like such an expert on them, that last line just about killed your cred.

The triangle is not some holy grail of offenses, Kobe played his basketball within the triangle, the year he was given free reign his game suffered as did his stats. But yes LeBron and Wade are definitely comparable.

Look you are right about Kobe being more impactfull than his stats, moreso than LeBron IMO, because he makes players around him much better than LeBron does.

i don't understand how does it kill my credit..perhaps because of my english,i give you that.i'm out of usa and i am a basketball site writer in my country,and believe me,i do understand about stats..
and i must say,you too..you saw how he opens space for his teammates,how he makes teammates better..thank God..what i am saying is just people here too much stuck on assist per game..even francis and marbury were making nearly as much assists as lebron..if i have to give an example,the year dallas went to finals,nowitzki was making teammates better like ihave never seen before from anybody,and he was doing that with just letting them play..right now kobe is doing the same but not as good as that dirk.

and i really wonder,who became better with lebron?z,no,was an allstar before..mo,no,he was as good,actually he made cle. better team..big ben,no way..hughes,no,was an allstar if not injurd in washington the year before he came to cle,he failed big time with bron,booby gibson,no,he first explode against detroit in playoffs,was good last year,he is upside down now..wally,pavlovic,who he did better,tell me please..may be delonte west..

on the other hand smush parker,bynum,kwame brown,trevor ariza,sasha,luke walton all became better players with kobe,not only playing with them,kobe always talks young guys and says what to do even for one position..

and i have to add that,i guess you meant 04-05 season,but that year a month before allstar break kobe injured in a cavs game for a month,before that his stats were 27-7-7 or something like that,and he was just gotting rhytm,when he returned,the lakers was a mess,i don't think that year is a good example,also i really like triangle,i am not against it.

GspLAL
02-11-2009, 02:46 PM
i don't understand how does it kill my credit..perhaps because of my english,i give you that.i'm out of usa and i am a basketball site writer in my country,and believe me,i do understand about stats..
and i must say,you too..you saw how he opens space for his teammates,how he makes teammates better..thank God..what i am saying is just people here too much stuck on assist per game..even francis and marbury were making nearly as much assists as lebron..if i have to give an example,the year dallas went to finals,nowitzki was making teammates better like ihave never seen before from anybody,and he was doing that with just letting them play..right now kobe is doing the same but not as good as that dirk.

and i really wonder,who became better with lebron?z,no,was an allstar before..mo,no,he was as good,actually he made cle. better team..big ben,no way..hughes,no,was an allstar if not injurd in washington the year before he came to cle,he failed big time with bron,booby gibson,no,he first explode against detroit in playoffs,was good last year,he is upside down now..wally,pavlovic,who he did better,tell me please..may be delonte west..

on the other hand smush parker,bynum,kwame brown,trevor ariza,sasha,luke walton all became better players with kobe,not only playing with them,kobe always talks young guys and says what to do even for one position..

and i have to add that,i guess you meant 04-05 season,but that year a month before allstar break kobe injured in a cavs game for a month,before that his stats were 27-7-7 or something like that,and he was just gotting rhytm,when he returned,the lakers was a mess,i don't think that year is a good example,also i really like triangle,i am not against it.

No :D

basketfan4life
02-12-2009, 12:52 AM
No :D
i am not saying that they are good players or something.i am just saying that 2 played career years with kobe..also i used to hate smush..

Chronz
02-12-2009, 02:29 AM
i don't understand how does it kill my credit..perhaps because of my english,i give you that.i'm out of usa and i am a basketball site writer in my country,
I may clown on alot of things but I would never clown on your ethnic background, your english is very good.



and believe me,i do understand about stats..
This is what I truly disagree with you, forgive my earlier comments I was just annoyed by the repetitiveness of this argument, for which I have debated on years now.



and i must say,you too..you saw how he opens space for his teammates,how he makes teammates better..thank God..what i am saying is just people here too much stuck on assist per game..even francis and marbury were making nearly as much assists as lebron..
I havent been following this thread very closely, what did assists per game have to do with this? Was it as a barometer for making players better, if so Im with you 100%. Thats not what assists are suppose to represent.



if i have to give an example,the year dallas went to finals,nowitzki was making teammates better like ihave never seen before from anybody,and he was doing that with just letting them play..right now kobe is doing the same but not as good as that dirk.

Its funny most Kobe fans dont realize the similarities in their situations, a few years ago Dirk was Kobes number 1 enemy because many felt he robbed him of an MVP. Yes your are right about that, Dirk was amazing but he was even better the year before the MVP, in every single way.


and i really wonder,who became better with lebron?z,no,was an allstar before..mo,no,he was as good,actually he made cle. better team..big ben,no way..hughes,no,was an allstar if not injurd in washington the year before he came to cle,he failed big time with bron,booby gibson,no,he first explode against detroit in playoffs,was good last year,he is upside down now..wally,pavlovic,who he did better,tell me please..may be delonte west..

Exactly, this is what I was alluding to in my theory. His ball hoggness tends to put certain players at a disadvantage, if the Cavs were a running team this would be less of an issue, but LeBron has always insisted on running a half court offense, the reason I say its on Bron is because I truly believe he wants to control the flow of the game in its entirety just like MJ did in his master days. Im not saying its entirely bad, LeBron is so good that he can take his team far playing this way, he just needs to have halfcourt players on his team. Its really a shame they tried to pair him with Larry Hughes, had they payed attention to his half court numbers they wouldve known how disastrous it wouldve been. However thats not entirely on LeBron, those are Hughes's flaws as a player, the fact that his halfcourt efficiency rose with Bron is a testament to how Bron makes him better.

So yes overall Hughes was a failure next to Bron but hes not doing any better in Chicago either, so maybe hes just a headcase player who got paid and stopped improving. Or maybe hes gone through too much in his young life (Family tragedies have haunted him). One way I like to measure a players ability to make players around him better is to compare how the players did before they joined Bron and how they faired alongside him. Its not 100% accurate but as always its worth looking at:



PLYER Usage% TS% (Offensive RTG)
MO WILL
W/Milwaukee 22.1 .566 (111)
W/Cleveland 23.6 .574 (113)
---------------------------------------------------
+.08 (+2)

Delonte West
W/Boston 16.4 .574 (112)
W/Cleveland 16.5 .582 (120)
---------------------------------------------------
+.08 (+8)


Something like this though I dont have the time for all of it, some players experience drastic role changes so I try to keep them out of the equation but like you mentioned Big Z, yes he was an all-star but hes played even better with him.

Then of course there are players who have only played alongside LeBron, the only thing I can do is compare their shooting percentages with him and without him and thats even less telling but curious none the less.

Boobie shoots better with Bron on the floor (41%), 50% for Pavlovic, 54% for AV,




on the other hand smush parker,bynum,kwame brown,trevor ariza,sasha,luke walton all became better players with kobe,not only playing with them,kobe always talks young guys and says what to do even for one position..

TRUE


and i have to add that,i guess you meant 04-05 season,but that year a month before allstar break kobe injured in a cavs game for a month,before that his stats were 27-7-7 or something like that,and he was just gotting rhytm,when he returned,the lakers was a mess,i don't think that year is a good example,also i really like triangle,i am not against it.
He was shooting something like 39% with a heavy turnover rate. Those are not good numbers, he actually got better as the season progressed and much better once they instilled the triangle again. The triangle is Kobes best friend, no need to make excuses for anything, every system has its sets of advantages. Kobe has always thrived in his, so be it.

GspLAL
02-12-2009, 02:42 AM
I havent been following this thread very closely, what did assists per game have to do with this? Was it as a barometer for making players better, if so Im with you 100%. Thats not what assists are suppose to represent.

Yes, a lot of people think because Lebron averages 7 rebounds and assists he's automatically better than Kobe when Kobe is averaging 5 and 5 in a system that doesn't allow one player to dominate the ball.

Pitty'09
02-12-2009, 03:09 AM
The debate over best player is already over.

It's Lebron. He can do everything Kobe can do, and then some..due to his size and athleticism.

and NO, ITS NOT. Lebron is not better than Kobe today. So dont act like its a case closed, prove positive shut the door argument. Especially when ur wrong.

Pitty'09
02-12-2009, 03:13 AM
Kobe and the Lakers clearly out played LeBron and the Cavs. Kobe wasn't even at full strength too. At halftime, he took an IV and was puking. Still, he was efficient from the field [8-17]. LeBron on the other hand was held to 5-20 shooting but was close to getting a triple double with 12 dimes and 8 boards. At the end, it came down to the role players such as Odom and Gasol who had GREAT games. 28/17 for Odom and 18/12/6 for Gasol.

It's clear the the Lakers are the best team in the league, especially after seeing them go 6-0 on this road trip that included the Cavs, Celtics, and Raptors.
And IM tired of hearing about Brons assist stats and look how complete he is and his all around game. He can pass, and is one of the best, but his assist stats are inflated just like AIs used to be. The Guy Has the ball EVERY SINGLE trip for at least half the time it takes his team to shoot before the clock shot goes off. He dominates the ball more than anyone in the league. Kobe USED to do it too. I am not really defending Kobe, cause he makes me sick and I hate him, but what I said about Lebron is true.

Pitty'09
02-12-2009, 03:15 AM
Not really. LeBron had 10 more assists and 5 more rebounds. Yeah, he shot worse, but he got more people involved. He holds the ball more than any POINT GUARD in the league does, he better have more assists.

Pitty'09
02-12-2009, 03:18 AM
I'm not saying that LeBron had a better game than Kobe. I thought they were pretty close performance wise. The Lakers played really well with Kobe on the bench, so that's why I think you can't say Bryant had far and away a better game than LeBron.

Also, for the amount of time that LeBron was handling the ball, he had only 1 turnover. Kobe had 2, and he didn't even control the ball as long as LeBron did.
HUH? NO they werent. Lebron was awful on offense, I dont care about his inflated assist numbers. He STUNK, and as much as I hate him, Kobe played sick as ****, and drained baskets in Lebrons face. It was not that close.

GspLAL
02-12-2009, 04:27 AM
Whatever, when Kobe had a crappy *** team he averaged 35.4 5.3 4.5, then 31.6 5.7 5.4


He dominates the ball more than anyone in the league. Kobe USED to do it too. I am not really defending Kobe, cause he makes me sick and I hate him, but what I said about Lebron is true.

Bullsfan22
02-12-2009, 04:38 AM
Years of watching him play and dissecting the stats (More on that later), he knows how to read the drives of other players better than Bron, when they make an aggressive attack Kobe is almost always in the proper position in terms of spacing, and because of his shooting ability defenders tend to stick to him giving his teammates a clearer view at the rim.

Ask any Laker fan when they see Kobe running the break with a ball handler and someone else on the opposite wing, they NEVER let Kobe get the dunk, this allows someone else to score thus helping them get in better rhythm.

Kobe is almost always in the proper position in terms of spacing, and because of his shooting ability defenders tend to stick to him giving his teammates a clearer view at the rim.

What do you mean? Why do you think he couldnt do anything? Last I checked they overachieved with him.


Yes, Pau makes Kobe better as well, hence theyre both more efficient and the team is a contender.


Odom is a weird player, its hard to make him better because its all mental with him. But yes I do believe hes been better with Kobe.


I fail to see how this makes him better at making others better


Thats true, whats your point?


Hard to say with youngsters, they were going to improve regardless and Bynum was just as impressive when he came off the bench sans Kobe.

In responds to the first paragraph "he knows how to read the drives of other players better than Bron" what are you talking about and after you explain tell me how he's better than lebron at it.

"Kobe is almost always in the proper position in terms of spacing, and because of his shooting ability defenders tend to stick to him giving his teammates a clearer view at the rim."

so he draws double teams? so does lebron? kobe draws double teams on the perimeter and lebron forces teams to pack the lane leaving his teammates just as open for shots as kobes.

"What do you mean? Why do you think he couldnt do anything? Last I checked they overachieved with him."

I meant that with the talent kobe had after shaq and before pau he accomplished nothing. he lead the suns 3-1 and let a playoff challenged run and gun suns team beat him. The talent on the eastern conference championship cavs team and that laker team that lost the suns series was very comparable. You guys certainly didn't overachieve.

"Yes, Pau makes Kobe better as well, hence theyre both more efficient and the team is a contender."

I'm not going to argue this, I am going to ask you other than kobe being double teamed on the wing when hes hot and teams giving pau more breathing room then he normally would get how does kobe make pau better? and vice versa with pau doing his thing and maybe teams slack off kobe a little more?

Your argument of kobe making his teammates better is based off of kobe getting double teamed, which is correct, but is it really making his teammates better? or is it just making the smart basketball play?

I'll tell you why lebron makes his teammates better and it's really simple. "Court vision" my definition of having good court vision is the ability to see the court at all times and make plays thats not an obvious pass out of a double team. Lebron has a unique ability to guide a player to a open spot on the floor by his pass to get a open shot; he simulates where players should be and puts enough air under the ball so that it gives his teammates enough time to catch the ball in that open spot of the court but yet puts enough zip on the pass to allow his teammate to catch and shoot before the defender can really challenge a shot. If you didn't get that his passing ability is GREAT.

Lebron instills confidence in his players just by simply trusting them. Kobe finally understood that his MVP year and it took pau to come to the team for that to happen. I hope you don't try to argue that kobe trusted his team back then. I can't prove it but if you switched lebron in kobe shoes back then lebron would have trusted his teammates more and that would have made them better; a superstar having confidence in his role players goes a loooong way and thats what leadership is about.

i cant fathom how you can up and say all the sudden kobe makes his teammates better than lebron taking all that into account. Like i said kobe has just started making the smart basketball CONSISTENTLY. and now you say kobe is better at making his teammates better? it was just a couple years ago where kobe totally ignored his teammates one game and the next game choose not to shoot the ball for quarters at a time. I admit kobe is playing at nasty level right now and thats because he finally understands how to be a leader.

Im not knocking kobe, he is a born leader nowadays but lebron came into the league ready to be a leader because of his unselfishness and supreme trust in his teammates no matter their skill set.

GspLAL
02-12-2009, 05:04 AM
I meant that with the talent kobe had after shaq and before pau he accomplished nothing. he lead the suns 3-1 and let a playoff challenged run and gun suns team beat him. The talent on the eastern conference championship cavs team and that laker team that lost the suns series was very comparable. You guys certainly didn't overachieve.


I stopped reading after that, go look at the roster Kobe had, the fact that they even went into the playoffs AND had Suns up 3-1 was amazing in its self but I guess you expected them to come out of the West those years huh? Go look at his average for the 05-07 seasons and tell me that's not carrying a team.

Bullsfan22
02-12-2009, 05:12 AM
I stopped reading after that, go look at the roster Kobe had, the fact that they even went into the playoffs AND had Suns up 3-1 was amazing in its self but I guess you expected them to come out of the West those years huh? Go look at his average for the 05-07 seasons and tell me that's not carrying a team.

There is a reason why i didn't respond to your last post. nothing against you or anybody else but i'm not looking for your response im looking for the response of the poster i quoted. I could respond to both of your posts rather easily but i'm not because i'm not going to get into a quoting match with every laker fan because it's to much of you.

like i said i nothing against you and i respect your opinion.

basketfan4life
02-12-2009, 09:01 AM
There is a reason why i didn't respond to your last post. nothing against you or anybody else but i'm not looking for your response im looking for the response of the poster i quoted. I could respond to both of your posts rather easily but i'm not because i'm not going to get into a quoting match with every laker fan because it's to much of you.

like i said i nothing against you and i respect your opinion.

i quoted that part just because tomake you know i'a writing to you,nothing to do with the part that i quoted..
i read what you you wrote..i don't want to create a misunderstanding..lebron is a great player,and he's bean an unstoppable force..and yes he makes his team better,no question..i'm just saying,'lebron makes teammates better'
thing is very overrated.your explanation explains one thing that he is a very good passer..but you can not make your teammates that better when you dominate the ball that much..last night,he made mo williams very better with taking a lot of attention and letting mo play with the ball..
this is the way dirk,duncan,shaq,lately kobe,mj at c'ships part of his carreer,all been playing...actually cleveland start the season this way,lebron wasn't dominating this much,but he turned to his bad old habbit lately..

basketfan4life
02-12-2009, 09:13 AM
also i have to add one thing,this argue came to very high level on this page..everyone is triying to make some analyses,trying to prove things logically...thanks to everybody in this page number 14..

cause that 'the argue is closed lebron is better,look at stats' or 'kobe is on another level,don't compare them' type of pots have nothing to do with the game of basketball...

even in the thread about MSG performences people were just saying i'll take 50+ td over 61 anyday or lebron couldn't score 60+ during his career.some of them didn't even watch both games,i am sure,were just looking at stats...

Kenny
02-12-2009, 09:13 AM
i quoted that part just because tomake you know i'a writing to you,nothing to do with the part that i quoted..
i read what you you wrote..i don't want to create a misunderstanding..lebron is a great player,and he's bean an unstoppable force..and yes he makes his team better,no question..i'm just saying,'lebron makes teammates better'
thing is very overrated.your explanation explains one thing that he is a very good passer..but you can not make your teammates that better when you dominate the ball that much..last night,he made mo williams very better with taking a lot of attention and letting mo play with the ball..
this is the way dirk,duncan,shaq,lately kobe,mj at c'ships part of his carreer,all been playing...actually cleveland start the season this way,lebron wasn't dominating this much,but he turned to his bad old habbit lately..

OR MAYBE JUST MAYBE. He has shot the ball more because the Cavs have been having starters going down.. Same way Kobe is shooting more now

basketfan4life
02-12-2009, 09:27 AM
OR MAYBE JUST MAYBE. He has shot the ball more because the Cavs have been having starters going down.. Same way Kobe is shooting more now
it has an affect,sure..but what i am saying is not only just shooting,nowadays may be kobe is shooting more than lebron,lebron can shoot more than now if he wants,shoot it no problem, but you shouldn't play with the ball that much,let other players play with the ball,they just aren't 'take the ball from your superstar and shoot' machines,they have their skills and what you you should do is make them show that skills..make the ball run..

this is not only about lebron actually,it doesn't depends on position too..it's
this way for even pg's..for example,c.paul is a great player,no question,but with this type of playing,hornets will never win a c'ship..because if paul isn't playing or having an off night,there is no way they can win a hard game.he is dishing out 10+ assists while scoring 20+ points which means he has the ball all the time..i am sure there are more efficient ways to use paul for hornets..it may hurt paul's or lebron's stats a little bit,but it will be way better for their teams.

Chronz
02-12-2009, 11:27 PM
In responds to the first paragraph "he knows how to read the drives of other players better than Bron" what are you talking about and after you explain tell me how he's better than lebron at it.
He finds open spaces off of penetration better, so that when the defense commits to his teammates he not only gives the ballhandler an outlet pass but is a scoring threat in doing so. Bron isnt better because his off the ball movement isnt as precise and when it is, and hes out on the perimeter he may give his teammate an escape but hes not on Kobes level as a set shooter to make the defense pay for leaving him open. Next time you watch a Cavs game notice how teams defend Bron off the ball, compared to how they defend Kobe, Bron doesnt force teams to stick onto him at all times and when they do leave him open it usually results in him calling for a pick or attempting a foray at the rim, with Kobe it usually ends up with him draining the open jumper.



so he draws double teams? so does lebron?
No not double teams, he just keeps his initial defender closer to him.


kobe draws double teams on the perimeter and lebron forces teams to pack the lane leaving his teammates just as open for shots as kobes.
Your right, they both have their ways of making their teammates better, but Kobe can do so without having the ball. When LeBron has it going or hes playing the 4 hes better than anyone, and he can create layups for his teammates with the best of them, but Kobe allows his teammates to go one on one, on their drives. Bron doesnt supply the same, and its one of the reasons Hughes sucked alongside him. Whenever you hear the term floor stretcher, that player provides spacing, Big Z being able to hit the midrange jumper provides floor spacing. Bron doesnt, and because of this isnt a complete player in terms of making his teammates better, if he werent such a great passer it would be a bigger weakness, but because hes such a great interior passer and draws so much attention in the paint hes still comparable to Kobe, I just think Kobes better.


I meant that with the talent kobe had after shaq and before pau he accomplished nothing.
I disagree, he accomplished alot, getting that team as far as they did was very impressive.


he lead the suns 3-1 and let a playoff challenged run and gun suns team beat him.
The fact that they were up 3-1 in the first place was amazing.


The talent on the eastern conference championship cavs team and that laker team that lost the suns series was very comparable. You guys certainly didn't overachieve.
First of all Im not a Lakers fan, secondly what does this have to do with making players around you better?


I'm not going to argue this, I am going to ask you other than kobe being double teamed on the wing when hes hot and teams giving pau more breathing room then he normally would get how does kobe make pau better? and vice versa with pau doing his thing and maybe teams slack off kobe a little more?

When teams overplay Kobe, the first thing he looks for is the lob over the top of the defense and Gasol ends up with the jam now that Bynum is gone teams will be able to send more defenders at Kobe and still focus on Gasol so it will lead to more shots for his shooters instead of his bigmen but he still helps Gasol in that way, I didnt see enough of Pau in Memphis but I do know hes thrived better as a 2nd option than he ever did as the man. Maybe that has more to do with the triangle than it does Kobe but I consider them parts of the same equation.


Your argument of kobe making his teammates better is based off of kobe getting double teamed, which is correct, but is it really making his teammates better? or is it just making the smart basketball play?

Not really basing it off just that, there are so many variables that I cant even fathom, how he inspires the play of others is a virtue I cant begin to understand, all I can do is measure the players performance with a given player and without, and throughout his career, Kobes teammates have usually been more efficient with him than without.


I'll tell you why lebron makes his teammates better and it's really simple. "Court vision" my definition of having good court vision is the ability to see the court at all times and make plays thats not an obvious pass out of a double team. Lebron has a unique ability to guide a player to a open spot on the floor by his pass to get a open shot; he simulates where players should be and puts enough air under the ball so that it gives his teammates enough time to catch the ball in that open spot of the court but yet puts enough zip on the pass to allow his teammate to catch and shoot before the defender can really challenge a shot. If you didn't get that his passing ability is GREAT.

Him and Tmac (In his prime) were the best at threading the needle and the best interior passers in the game, his decision making with his passing is better than Kobes, if his teammates have it going Bron can play the role of distributor better, when Kobe plays this role he usually ends up with a high turnover tally, Bron doesnt make those same mistakes with his passing or playmaking. Thats the edge he does have, I just dont think the difference in their off the ball abilities is big enough to say Bron is better than Kobes. Ive been measuring the "Kobe Effect" for years, I plan on doing one for Bron as well but Im almost positive the numbers yield better results for Kobe.



Lebron instills confidence in his players just by simply trusting them. Kobe finally understood that his MVP year and it took pau to come to the team for that to happen. I hope you don't try to argue that kobe trusted his team back then. I can't prove it but if you switched lebron in kobe shoes back then lebron would have trusted his teammates more and that would have made them better; a superstar having confidence in his role players goes a loooong way and thats what leadership is about.

I never baught that BS, sorry but anytime the Lakers did good it was all about Kobe trusting his teammates, Kobe has always made the right play. Dumping it off to players who arent as efficient as him in certain scenario's is not the right play, Kobe has always done what was best for the team. I dont fall for those cliche's


i cant fathom how you can up and say all the sudden kobe makes his teammates better than lebron taking all that into account. Like i said kobe has just started making the smart basketball CONSISTENTLY. and now you say kobe is better at making his teammates better? it was just a couple years ago where kobe totally ignored his teammates one game and the next game choose not to shoot the ball for quarters at a time. I admit kobe is playing at nasty level right now and thats because he finally understands how to be a leader.
Im not knocking kobe, he is a born leader nowadays but lebron came into the league ready to be a leader because of his unselfishness and supreme trust in his teammates no matter their skill set.

Kobe has always been a leader, I dont define his leadership by his teammates. Hes always made the right play, you can trust a Pau Gasol to finish a play more than you could Kwame, so creating for Kwame instead of taking the jumper wouldve produced disastrous results. I highly doubt Bron and Odom wouldve coexisted better than him and Kobe.

favre_4life
02-12-2009, 11:49 PM
until kobe can show me he can average 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists he can't be considered.

how can you be the best in the world when you are so one dimensional ? stupid criteria

Yah, I'll be thre first to admit that Lebron is a STAT Killer, but he just isn't as clutch as Kobe in the end of the game. Put it this way, for 3 quarters i would take Lebron, but in the 4th Im takin Kobe.