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Barry L Bonds
02-07-2009, 05:12 PM
How do you know if guys like Ruth or Williams or Hank or Mays,Mantle,Jackson,Robinson,Schmidt,,Fox or whoever didn't use illegal substances? Please tell me cause i am not sure if they did or didn't.

Can you prove with 100% certainty that people from different eras did not use a banned substance?

IMO the only difference between now and the old eras is the fact that technology is better, and their is more testing and more banned substances of which you can't take.

The way i go about is i assume every player in the history of baseball is on something and then you see who the best is. I mean Baseball records as it is are tainted anyway even without roids. I mean guys in the early days did not play against the best so how do you account for their inflated stats?

WickedBadMan
02-07-2009, 05:16 PM
Interesting user name, avatar and first post :).

Going to let someone else handle the specifics. But, as far as I am aware steroids just weren't available to obtain that far back. I did a quick search on their origin in performance enhancing but didn't see anything right away.

Oh, and Babe Ruth was a fat ***.

bagwell368
02-07-2009, 05:20 PM
How do you know if guys like Ruth or Williams or Hank or Mays,Mantle,Jackson,Robinson,Schmidt,,Fox or whoever didn't use illegal substances? Please tell me cause i am not sure if they did or didn't.

Can you prove with 100% certainty that people from different eras did not use a banned substance?

IMO the only difference between now and the old eras is the fact that technology is better, and their is more testing and more banned substances of which you can't take.

The way i go about is i assume every player in the history of baseball is on something and then you see who the best is. I mean Baseball records as it is are tainted anyway even without roids. I mean guys in the early days did not play against the best so how do you account for their inflated stats?

Let's exhume them...

Many of them drank - not illegal.

Many of them smoked tobacco - not illegal.

Many took uppers - illegal, but, show me proof that this in some way raises performance?

The "Arnold" era which started in body building and migrated to baseball leter, and then the follow ons such as HGH obviously changed everything more.

Don't believe me? Get tape of Mays, Yaz, Oliva, Clemente, Aaron, Ted, Musial - and watch. What do you think about arm size, muscle, speed, athleticism. Then watch post 1992 power hitters, and tell me honestly you can't see the difference for yourself.

Your namesake put on 26 lbs in one four month period - totally impossible according to muscle builders, scientists, everyone that knows about men in the mid 30's putting on muscle - even world class athletes. Face it, your namesake is tainted, and no amount of mud you might want stir up on men mostly long dead can change that fact. Live with it.

Rique
02-07-2009, 05:22 PM
Interesting user name, avatar and first post :).

Going to let someone else handle the specifics. But, as far as I am aware steroids just weren't available to obtain that far back. I did a quick search on their origin in performance enhancing but didn't see anything right away.

Oh, and Babe Ruth was a fat ***.

The old steelers team admitted to using steroids

redwhitenblue
02-07-2009, 05:24 PM
Let's exhume them...

Many of them drank - not illegal.

Many of them smoked tobacco - not illegal.

Many took uppers - illegal, but, show me proof that this in some way raises performance?

The "Arnold" era which started in body building and migrated to baseball leter, and then the follow ons such as HGH obviously changed everything more.

Don't believe me? Get tape of Mays, Yaz, Oliva, Clemente, Aaron, Ted, Musial - and watch. What do you think about arm size, muscle, speed, athleticism. Then watch post 1992 power hitters, and tell me honestly you can't see the difference for yourself.

Your namesake put on 26 lbs in one four month period - totally impossible according to muscle builders, scientists, everyone that knows about men in the mid 30's putting on muscle - even world class athletes. Face it, your namesake is tainted, and no amount of mud you might want stir up on men mostly long dead can change that fact. Live with it.
A couple dozen of Babe Ruth's old bats were discovered to have been manipulated similar to being corked.

nymetsrule
02-07-2009, 05:24 PM
How do you know if guys like Ruth or Williams or Hank or Mays,Mantle,Jackson,Robinson,Schmidt,,Fox or whoever didn't use illegal substances? Please tell me cause i am not sure if they did or didn't.

Can you prove with 100% certainty that people from different eras did not use a banned substance?

IMO the only difference between now and the old eras is the fact that technology is better, and their is more testing and more banned substances of which you can't take.

The way i go about is i assume every player in the history of baseball is on something and then you see who the best is. I mean Baseball records as it is are tainted anyway even without roids. I mean guys in the early days did not play against the best so how do you account for their inflated stats?

Hello Mr. Bonds, nice of you to join us on PSD!

No, you cannot prove it, but performance enhancing drugs were not as advanced at the time.


Now go **** yourself.:p

WickedBadMan
02-07-2009, 05:24 PM
The 70s teams?

ugottabjoshinme
02-07-2009, 05:25 PM
i dont think you can just look at the size of player between era like that. The guys from this era would be bigger anyway because culture is different. There is a bigger focus on weight and strength training now then there was is the past. That alone would show major increase in size. I bet people in the old days did anything they could to get competitive advantage over other teams and players. Thats why pitchers doctored balls with substances and threw spit balls.

5+7=DYNASTY!!!
02-07-2009, 05:26 PM
Cheating went on in all era's. Whether it was spit balls or corked bats, it was going on.

Rampage132
02-07-2009, 05:29 PM
Because they didn't have illegal substances back then...or steroids?

Anabolic steroids were only first isolated in 1935, and human trials didn't start until much later, and they were not used as performing enhancing drugs until decades later.

gcoll
02-07-2009, 05:29 PM
They were all coke heads in the 80s.....

Rampage132
02-07-2009, 05:30 PM
They were all coke heads in the 80s.....

I'm pretty sure you can't play baseball better by taking cocaine..

nymetsrule
02-07-2009, 05:39 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't play baseball better by taking cocaine..

You would probably rather do more coke than stand out on a field for a few hours.:cool:

GarlicStench
02-07-2009, 05:45 PM
They were all juiced on cross tops, i.e., go juice, ie. anphetamines. And yes you are soooo much more alert and have faster eye/hand coordination when you are amped on speeed. Aaron, Mays, Mantle!! They were all juiced on SPEED!!!!!!!!!!!This is even admitted FACT!!

downsos
02-07-2009, 05:53 PM
Because they didn't have illegal substances back then...or steroids?

Anabolic steroids were only first isolated in 1935, and human trials didn't start until much later, and they were not used as performing enhancing drugs until decades later.

In the movie 61* when Roger Maris broke the home run record someone on the team was really sick and was taking steroids(prescribed by doctors) to get healthy enough to play, so it goes back that far.

misterd
02-07-2009, 06:15 PM
You would probably rather do more coke than stand out on a field for a few hours.:cool:

I'm sure standing out there staring at the long white lines didn't help.

WSU Tony
02-07-2009, 07:20 PM
Were these complicated roids even developed back in the 30's? I have no idea. If not, I think we can safely say those players didn't take them.

TehZen
02-07-2009, 07:29 PM
This is a very good point as I am sure there was something people took back then to help take the edge of at the very least.

DJYankee
02-07-2009, 07:38 PM
You have to look how long steroids has been around.

Seamhead
02-07-2009, 10:36 PM
How do we know Barry L Bonds isn't using PEDs (Posting Enhancing Drugs)?


On a side not, this would be the posting equivalent of Neifi Perez....:rimshot:

Maz60
02-07-2009, 10:46 PM
Well, as long as the original question doesnt come from an impartial poster (named Barry Bonds).

Youre kind of ******** there, arent ya fella?

King Henrik
02-07-2009, 11:04 PM
Bonds you must be enjoying your banishment from baseball.. uhm i mean retirement.

Matt-the-great
02-07-2009, 11:38 PM
are you Barry Bonds ?

Barry L Bonds
02-08-2009, 07:22 PM
i dont think you can just look at the size of player between era like that. The guys from this era would be bigger anyway because culture is different.


Everything is much different you can see it all around you. I mean 1 example i can give is how people are now much much taller than they where in those eras. I'm not just talking about ball players either.

People in general have gotten bigger over time.



There is a bigger focus on weight and strength training now then there was is the past. That alone would show major increase in size. I bet people in the old days did anything they could to get competitive advantage over other teams and players. Thats why pitchers doctored balls with substances and threw spit balls.

Come on man people in the old days had more morals.THEIR IS NOWAY THEY COULD DO THAT.I mean humans where not competitive in the old days.

Barry L Bonds
02-08-2009, 07:38 PM
Well, as long as the original question doesnt come from an impartial poster (named Barry Bonds).

Impartial? Read the post again (If you can read) and then debate on it. I think it riles you up because you can't know for sure if those guys are clean or not. You and others seem to think that these older eras should be excused and should not suspected of nothing.

Humans are humans they are competitive by nature (especially big time athletes at the highest levels.Just because you or others have this ideal that older player eras = clean doesn't make real.

How about you yourself be impartial for a change?





Youre kind of ******** there, arent ya fella?

I see why you resorted to insults. See that's human nature just like i said above. I asked a question but that question was one that you felt attacked your ideals so you attacked me in return.

Re-read the question

mdlr52192
02-08-2009, 07:51 PM
Well its pretty much impossible to know who and when because its so long ago, and the only way we'll ever find out is if people decide to randomly confess to doing it, or if the feds somehow dig up files from the past, but since I doubt there was steroid testing back then, that possibility is shot. Due to this, we just assume they are clean. Their size inclines me to say that they didn't do it. This is a joke, but people are probably attacking you because you made a profile with Bonds as your avatar and your first post was a thread asking about steroids. It makes you look like you want to use other people to make Bonds not look as bad.

Barry L Bonds
02-08-2009, 08:03 PM
These have been around since forever but hey why even bring that huh? Nah the old era had super human strength and did not require any boost or would even consider taking anything. I mean why not take it? It's not like they even tested you like they do now.Nah morality over performance lol?


Baseball and amphetimines

By Carlos Frias

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Sunday, April 02, 2006

There are days when the 13-year veteran feels his strength sapped by the demands of those 162-game seasons.

That's why even this three-time All-Star used to swallow a "greenie'' now and then to stay in the lineup.
Greenies rampant in majors

What are these?

"Players use amphetamines to be the player they can't be when they're tired," said the veteran, who asked that his name not be used.

For decades, amphetamines "speed" on the street have helped baseball players face the rigors of their sport: Six-game weeks. Day games immediately following night games. Cross-country flights. Hundreds of repetitions in the batting cage and batter's box, on the mound and in the field. The stress of a pennant race in the August heat.

But baseball's crusade against performance-enhancing substances has pushed the pills out of the clubhouse and onto the banned list as part of the sport's sweeping new drug policy.

Beginning this season, players will be tested for amphetamines. And many major-leaguers believe that our national pastime will never be the same.

"It's going to have a lot bigger effect on the game than steroid testing," said Chipper Jones, the Atlanta Braves' All-Star third baseman. "It's more rampant than steroids. ... I think the fringe players will be weeded out."

In recent years, players have estimated that between 50 and 80 percent of ballplayers have used amphetamines. A USA Today survey last year found that 35 percent of players thought at least half were using them. The ban will heighten the physical and mental strain of the season, the aforementioned veteran said.

"The manager comes to you and what are you going to say?... 'Oh, no, sorry. I can't go today.' I used it on days when I felt shut down, to keep my name in the lineup," he said. "You're going to see a lot of guys asking the manager for a day off."

Greenies, a nickname coined by ballplayers because of the color of the pills, were introduced to the game in the 1940s. These amphetamines speed up the heart rate and have been proven to fight fatigue, increase alertness and sharpen reaction time. Athletes have used them to challenge the limits of endurance and mask the accompanying pain.

Amphetamines also are addictive and can cause heart attacks and strokes. They contributed to the first documented deaths from performance-enhancing drugs more than 45 years ago.

Players have ordered pills on the Internet or brought them to spring training after playing in winter leagues in Latin America, where amphetamines are available over-the-counter.

Now, there's a rush to figure out other ways to survive the season.

The veteran player points to the energy drink in a bright blue bottle atop his spring training locker.

"If they ever ban that, then I'll definitely have to say something," he said.

An open secret

Steroids have all but ruined baseball's image. So when the owners finally toughened up the drug policy, they decided to target more than the anabolic substances that have made headlines in the long-ball era.

Commissioner Bud Selig, in a letter to players' union chief Donald Fehr last year, made clear his intention to erase all traces of performance-enhancing drugs.

"It's time to put the whispers about amphetamine use to bed once and for all,'' Selig wrote. "To the extent that our culture has tolerated the use of these substances, the culture must change."

One player said Fehr has told union members that the Congressional hearings on steroids scared owners into including greenies in their accelerated anti-drug campaign.

No matter the motivation, amphetamine abusers now face severe consequences.

The first positive test will result in a series of random tests. A second offense calls for a 25-game suspension. A third and you're out 80 games. A fourth violation goes to the commissioner, who could impose a lifetime ban.

Despite the risk, some players still might seek magic in a bottle.

"I know if I walk in the clubhouse tomorrow morning and I say, 'I'm not going to be able to get on the field until I have some,' I feel fairly certain I could find some," Jones said of the pills. "Until recently, it's been sitting up in plain sight. ... You see what you see."

Greenies have long been baseball's worst-kept secret. They were considered harmless pep pills until 1970, when the drug that doctors classify as "artificial adrenaline" was made illegal in the United States without a prescription.

"It's not a big deal between ballplayers and that's probably because nobody's ever had a serious consequence," Baltimore Orioles catcher Javy Lopez said. "The day there is, the day someone dies, then you're really going to see people running around."

Few players, Lopez said, consider the risk.

"The way a lot of guys think is... advance your career, make your money, take care of your family, follow your dream and pay the consequences later with your health," he said.

For years, players satisfied their needs in pill and liquid form. In many clubhouses, one coffee pot was labeled regular and the other "hot,'' meaning the java was spiked with amphetamines.

The ban will prompt some players to experiment with potential energy boosters. Before the weight-loss drug ephedra was outlawed, players would mix it with coffee to create "an amphetamine-like effect without violating any laws," according to Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the prohibited-list committee of the World Anti-Doping Agency, who testified before Congress last year.

Was that concoction safer than straight greenies?

"I'll just remind you of Steven Bechler," Wadler said.

Bechler, an Orioles pitcher, died of a heart attack in Fort Lauderdale after using ephedra during spring training three years ago. An autopsy confirmed that the drug contributed to the heatstroke that killed him. Bechler, 23, had thrown fewer than five innings in the majors.

'Cat-and-mouse game'

As soon as ephedra was banned, in came Synephrine, also called "bitter orange," and it was easily mixed with coffee for a heart-racing kick.

"It's a cat-and-mouse game," Wadler said. "Chemical gurus make a lot of money doing this."

Los Angeles Dodgers catcher Sandy Alomar Jr., who has played 18 seasons in the big leagues, said he'll stick with old-fashioned stimulants like espresso. Alomar knows that fans are fed up with drug use among athletes, but he doesn't think they understand the stamina and mental edge it takes to play in the majors.

"There are going to be days that you're going to need to take stuff to play supplements, coffee, Red Bull," he said. "Maybe it doesn't really work, but in your mind, it's what you need."

Doctors say the biggest risk of amphetamines is addiction both physical and mental. Players come to believe they cannot perform without the drug. Plus, as the body becomes accustomed to the amphetamines, the drug becomes less effective over time. That means a higer dose is needed to create the same rush.

"I've seen a guy who may or may not pinch hit in the eighth or ninth inning pop two before the game and another in the fifth inning," Jones said. "It's part of their pre-game ritual. Some guys have to have it."

When players overmedicate, they can become aggressive, throwing bats, kicking water coolers, destroying the clubhouse when things go wrong.

"The saying was the guy had to 'work his greenie off,' " said former major-leaguer Jim Bouton, who in 1970 wrote about amphetamines in baseball in his classic tell-all memoir, Ball Four.

Amphetamines, often used to treat narcolepsy, also can disrupt a player's sleeping habits. Some suffer from bouts of insomnia, going several days without sleep. The drugs also are used to control weight; one player said a teammate had to seek counseling because he had lost too many pounds.

Through the years, players have devised home remedies to come down from the high. The most common belief is that a glass of milk, about 20 ounces or so, does the trick.

"I don't know if it's an old wives' tale, but it's what I've heard 'Dude, will you get him a glass of milk to settle him down?' " Jones said.

Bouton said the testing will have a widespread effect that may be difficult to discern.

"You're not going to notice it the reason is amphetamine use is so widespread it's going to affect everybody equally," he said. "So many guys take it, it's going to balance itself out in the end."

WWII sparks pill craze

If baseball players aren't alarmed by the sight of teammates taking pills between innings or gulping cups of juiced-up coffee, it's because they've been numbed to the use of amphetamines through the last 60 years.

The abuse dates back to World War II, when pilots and infantrymen were given pills to help them stay alert in battle. They were legal, sold over-the-counter and used to treat everything from asthma to fatigue.

Professional athletes called into service began using amphetamines during games at military bases. When the war ended and athletes returned to their teams, they brought along the pills.

They used the name "greenies" because Dexedrine, one brand name, came in green tablets. The equally common Benzedrine came in orange pills.

"They spread like wildfire when all of those guys came home," said Dr. Charles Yesalis, who co-authored the article, Anabolic Steroid and Stimulant Use in North American Sport between 1850 and 1980, in the December issue of Sport in History.


When Hall of Fame slugger Ralph Kiner returned to the Pittsburgh Pirates after flying Navy seaplanes, he found amphetamines in the training room.

Before the second game of a summer doubleheader, a trainer gave a weary Kiner some Benzedrine pills.

"All the trainers in all the ballparks had them," Kiner said.

In an era when a premium wasn't placed on off-season conditioning players were discouraged from lifting weights for fear of becoming too bulky and losing flexibility ballplayers sought stamina in pill form. Big-league roster spots were precious and players would do anything to keep them.

"You needed to perform your best and you were going to use everything that's legal to help you do it," Kiner said. "You worked to get that job and you wanted to stay in the lineup. If you got out of the lineup, you might never get back in."

Jim Brosnan, who pitched for four teams from 1954 through '63, chronicled life in the majors in his 1960 book, The Long Season. He said most players used greenies to recover from hangovers and instill confidence.

"It seemed to help," he said. "If you thought it would help, you tried it. I did. But it didn't always help me."

By the late '60s, amphetamine use worldwide was rampant, especially in sports.

The first documented cases of deaths from performance-

enhancing drugs involved amphetamines. During the 1960 Olympic Games in Rome, Danish cyclist Knud Jensen collapsed and died during competition. Seven years later, English cyclist Tommy Simpson died from heart failure during the Tour de France.

Autopsies revealed that each athlete had high levels of amphetamines in his system.

When Congress passed the first legislation to combat drug abuse, the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970, amphetamine prescriptions dropped 88 percent within two years, Wadler said.

But baseball players kept taking pills.

"Most players saw amphetamines as harmless," Bouton said. "But the professional athlete does a lot of things to his body that they don't think of as harmful."

The war sparked the greenie craze, but winter ball kept it going.

Even after the United States regulated amphetamines, they were still available over-the-counter in Latin America. And they still are today.

Just about every major-leaguer who has played in Latin America has experienced the heart-pounding high of a greenie-loaded pot of coffee.

When the Orioles' Lopez was 17 and a bench warmer for the San Juan Senators in the Puerto Rican winter league, he downed a cup of coffee and heard a veteran warning another rookie about drinking out of the engrinado pot, the one spiked with greenies.

"I was scared," Lopez said. "I had never smoked in my life, never had a drink, never taken any drugs. And to me, greenies were a drug. I just kept listening to my body to see what would happen, ready to run to the trainer."

Now, Major League Baseball has considered asking the winter leagues to test their players, too, said Jesus Campos, the Marlins' director of scouting in the Dominican Republic and also the general manager of the Cibao Giants. Last winter, Major League Baseball conducted surprise tests of major-leaguers on Campos' team.

"Nobody escapes," Campos said. "Whoever gets caught, it is not for a lack of education."

Baseball is urging franchises to educate prospects in their Latin American training academies about the dangers of amphetamines and the risk of suspension or worse. Baseball provides a list of banned substances using the Spanish street names of the illegal drugs and supplements.

That's a good thing, said Dario Paulino, the general manager of the Braves' operations in the Dominican Republic, who estimates that 40 percent of the Dominican players signed by major-league teams have used amphetamines.

"You as a player, in an effort to be the next Sammy Sosa, are going to do what you think you need to do," Paulino said. "Our challenge is to educate against that."

The Braves require prospects to take a drug test before they sign a contract. The Marlins do not, so some amphetamine users could slip by until they fail an MLB test.

"That's a battle for us," Campos said. "That's what we're dealing with here in the Dominican Republic and Latin America."

The 2006 season brings a new period of adjustment for many major-leaguers. Coincidence or not, home-run production dropped last year after the advent of steroid testing.

With the amphetamine ban, many players expect regulars in the starting lineup to ask for more days off.

"It's going to prevent people from playing the number of games they want to play because they relied on it for so long," said Atlanta's Jones.

Bouton believes that cynical fans and observers will react to a player's slump the same way they did to a drop-off in homers by assuming that the player must have been on drugs. He blames the owners and players for making matters worse by not addressing amphetamines before this season.

"They should have done something a long time ago," Bouton said. "The players who aren't taking drugs need to be protected from the ones taking them.... You've said to the public, 'Let's ignore it until the absolute last minute.' Now, everybody suffers, even the guy who's not taking anything."

Some players believe they are being unfairly scrutinized for using a drug that provides nothing more than an energy fix.

"I'm not saying, 'Go be a dope fiend,' but it's a 162-game season, day games after night games.... Guys are not machines," Braves outfielder Brian Jordan said. "I'm not promoting using it, but you need something to get you going."

Without a greenie boost, players will seek alternatives to get them through the season. Coffee. Energy drinks. Eating better. Working out more.

Will it be enough?

"You have to have the desire to succeed and you can do that without cheating," Jones said. "Well, some people can."

Rampage132
02-08-2009, 08:15 PM
But are you actually Barry Bonds?!?

Barry L Bonds
02-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Well its pretty much impossible to know who and when because its so long ago,
.
Time is irrelevant. The question is whether or not they used banned substance to gain an advantage in the game?



and the only way we'll ever find out is if people decide to randomly confess to doing it, or if the feds somehow dig up files from the past, but since I doubt there was steroid testing back then, that possibility is shot. Due to this, we just assume they are clean.Their size inclines me to say that they didn't do it.

Must be nice living in a world of illusion. Amphetamines have been around for over 60+ years.

You assume they are clean? Why because their old timers? Because you have nostalgia that says they where great and they could do no wrong?

These guys where living in a reality just these baseball players of today are.They where not super hero's like you think. They where humans just like any other ballplayer looking to get an edge.That is unless you think these guys where 100% saints who never committed a sin in their life?

And as for size? Well do you know that most people in general have gotten bigger over the years? I'm not just talking about athletes either i am talking about humans in general.

The food,amounts of food and the types of foods people consume have a lot to do with it. The economics factor into all of this as well. That's just the food part but then their is more advance and more focus now on strength training for athletes.

You only judge their size compared to that of their current peers but that is the wrong way to go about it.Like i said their many factors that effect a person's size.

Now a days most 18 year old kid's will look much bigger today than he did back in the 20's,30's,40's,50's60's70's80's ect regardless if they used any substance.






This is a joke, but people are probably attacking you because you made a profile with Bonds as your avatar and your first post was a thread asking about steroids. It makes you look like you want to use other people to make Bonds not look as bad.

My profile should have no effect on my post. I asked a question just like any other person who post on this board.



During the Pittsburgh drug trials in the mid-1980s, outfielder John Milner testified that Willie Mays introduced him to a liquid amphetamine known as "red juice." More than a decade later, Tony Gwynn spoke of rampant amphetamine use in the game, and David Wells referred to greenies in his book, "Perfect I'm Not: Boomer on Beer, Brawls, Backaches, and Baseball."


Willie Mays and many other greats i assume. Like in my first post i assume every ball player uses a performance enhancer and then i see who the best is.It's much easier to do that since their is already an allege usage of some form.

One thing i will say is that Baseball is much more receptive to usage do to the fact that their is 162 games each lasting about 4 to 5 hours per game games as opposed to 82 NBA games lasting 2 and half to 3 hours or so, or 16 games NFL games lasting 3 hours or so.

mdlr52192
02-08-2009, 09:22 PM
Time is irrelevant. The question is whether or not they used banned substance to gain an advantage in the game?


Must be nice living in a world of illusion. Amphetamines have been around for over 60+ years.

You assume they are clean? Why because their old timers? Because you have nostalgia that says they where great and they could do no wrong?

These guys where living in a reality just these baseball players of today are.They where not super hero's like you think. They where humans just like any other ballplayer looking to get an edge.That is unless you think these guys where 100% saints who never committed a sin in their life?

And as for size? Well do you know that most people in general have gotten bigger over the years? I'm not just talking about athletes either i am talking about humans in general.

The food,amounts of food and the types of foods people consume have a lot to do with it. The economics factor into all of this as well. That's just the food part but then their is more advance and more focus now on strength training for athletes.

You only judge their size compared to that of their current peers but that is the wrong way to go about it.Like i said their many factors that effect a person's size.

Now a days most 18 year old kid's will look much bigger today than he did back in the 20's,30's,40's,50's60's70's80's ect regardless if they used any substance.

My profile should have no effect on my post. I asked a question just like any other person who post on this board.

Well, seeing as to how I've lived only in the steroid era, I can't really have nostalgia for them because I wasn't around at that time. I was making a point saying that because of how it was at those times, that people assume that. Well, there was a homerun explosion throughout the 90s, so it looks more like there wasn't as much PED use throughout the pre-90s eras. And when it comes to size, people can bulk up, but the way that A-Rod's size changed from 01 and 02 to 03, and the way that your boy Barry's size changed is a little suspect. We can't assume that people did steroids because the people in the past haven't been tested or proven to have taken steroids. Oh, and I never mentioned that amphetamines were never around at that point in time. I just said that I assume that they weren't used. I'm the kind of person who tries to see the best in people, and don't believe that people did steroids until the proof is seen. I've tried to defend Bonds for a while, but there's "proof" now, so I can't.

ry31walsh
02-08-2009, 09:37 PM
Steroids were first created in 1930, and in 1940 they started being used by Nazi soldiers and later by Russian in the 1950. Not sure the time frame for the USA but some of the older guys are off the hook like Ruth simple because they didn't exist when he played.

tymonic1
02-09-2009, 02:15 AM
i thought it was supposed to "just be a game"