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BigRatt
02-03-2009, 02:00 AM
he field at Raymond James Stadium has barely cooled from the fourth-quarter scorching it received in Super Bowl XLIII as the Arizona Cardinals fell short to the Pittsburgh Steelers in a see-saw battle Sunday, but we are wasting no time shifting gears into the offseason. And with that comes our first rumor of the offseason, which has New England Patriots quarterback Matt Cassel rejoining former boss Scott Pioli, who is now general manager of the Kansas City Chiefs.

That connection between the two clubs has led to speculation by the Boston Herald that Cassel could eventually wind up as the quarterback Pioli chooses to build around.

There has been a lot of talk about the Patriots slapping the franchise tag on the guy who will become a backup once Tom Brady returns to the lineup. And that's a distinct possibility. Regardless of how they handle it, though, they're sure to try and get something in return instead of allowing him to walk as a free agent. It's also hard to imagine that if they do franchise him they won't try to move him. Top five salary for a quarterback is just too much to carry for a guy who most likely would sit on the bench.

The Herald's Karen Guregian quotes Sirius NFL radio analyst Jim Miller, who had good reasons for his speculation on the topic.

"I'd really look at Pioli down there in Kansas City. Why wouldn't he want him? He knows what the kid is capable of doing. So I think he'd be on their radar... If Kansas (City) were to make that deal, that's their Matt Ryan. That's their Joe Flacco. Unlike a [Mark] Sanchez, for instance, they know he's playing at a starter's level. So to them, I think it'd be worth it to do. They'd get their starting quarterback, they know what he's capable of doing, and they've seen him win games at the NFL level."

Some feel that Tyler Thigpen earned an opportunity in 2008 to prove he's the Chiefs' quarterback of the future, but with a new regime in place it's very possible they will want to go in a different direction. Pioli is widely regarded as one of the best talent evaluators in the league, so it all comes down to how he views Thigpen versus Cassel versus perhaps a Mark Sanchez or Matthew Stafford in the draft.

BigRatt
02-03-2009, 02:02 AM
What is Cassel worth? Hopefully they can get him for a 3rd rounder..

IndiansFan337
02-03-2009, 02:07 AM
I wouldn't want to give Stafford or Sanchez huge guaranteed money, when they will likely not make a positive impact for at least two years....Look at what Jamarcus Russell has done thus far? Nothing to justify his contract.

Cassel would be worth the money moreso than the rookies in the near future. But the problem is that Cassel likely cannot be had for just money.

DonnieE
02-03-2009, 06:20 AM
They need an every down back..Ship LJ their way..

Duffman
02-03-2009, 11:13 AM
Sure lets hire Carl Peterson for a couple more days to make this move for us. Something he would do, quick fix guys first round playoff loss here we come! Why are Chiefs fans so afraid of grooming a great QB?

ldslngr10x
02-03-2009, 12:02 PM
Yeh and why we are at it let bring over their offensive line and all their recievers...thats a huge factor as to why he is successful!

Duffman
02-03-2009, 12:55 PM
Yeh and why we are at it let bring over their offensive line and all their recievers...thats a huge factor as to why he is successful!

Bingo! He did a solid job last year with the Patriots, but when you put him in a situation where hes surrounded by much lesser talent he isn't going to light it up. He got sacked a lot in NE, imagine him behind our line.

BigRatt
02-03-2009, 02:22 PM
Bingo! He did a solid job last year with the Patriots, but when you put him in a situation where hes surrounded by much lesser talent he isn't going to light it up. He got sacked a lot in NE, imagine him behind our line.

Cassel is definately not worth the number 3. Hopefully they can get Cassel for a 3rd and a player. Then take one of the OTs at 3 and move Albert inside. Or take Curry or Crabtree at 3 and then take OG Herman Johnson in the 2nd or OG Duke Robinson if he falls. I think this move would make sense for Pioli. Hopefully Barry Richarson is ready to go at RT and maybe they pick up a Free Agent Center. All of the Sudden things start to look very different for this Offense. One thing NE doesn't have is a Tony G.

Duffman
02-03-2009, 02:37 PM
Cassel is definately not worth the number 3. Hopefully they can get Cassel for a 3rd and a player. Then take one of the OTs at 3 and move Albert inside. Or take Curry or Crabtree at 3 and then take OG Herman Johnson in the 2nd or OG Duke Robinson if he falls. I think this move would make sense for Pioli. Hopefully Barry Richarson is ready to go at RT and maybe they pick up a Free Agent Center. All of the Sudden things start to look very different for this Offense. One thing NE doesn't have is a Tony G.

I'll pass on bad drafting and retread QB's. I'm sick of the Peterson era.

BigRatt
02-03-2009, 02:38 PM
Sure lets hire Carl Peterson for a couple more days to make this move for us. Something he would do, quick fix guys first round playoff loss here we come! Why are Chiefs fans so afraid of grooming a great QB?

Because its a flip of the coin whether or not you wind up like the Ravens or the Falcons, Or whether or not you end up like the 49ers with Alex Smith and so many other teams like him. Your investing 60 million in a player you have no idea that can play. If your wrong at QB your screwed for years. Thats why i would go with as safe a pick as i could. Pioli is not Carl Peterson!!!! Not only that but Peterson liked 30 and up veterans up QB. Cassel is only 26.

BigRatt
02-03-2009, 02:46 PM
I'll pass on bad drafting and retread QB's. I'm sick of the Peterson era.

In case you haven't noticed the drafting the last 3 years was pretty decent. Alot of Herms picks will be cornerstones on this team for years to come. I think with Pioli and Kuharic together it will only get better.

Duffman
02-03-2009, 02:46 PM
Because its a flip of the coin whether or not you wind up like the Ravens or the Falcons, Or whether or not you end up like the 49ers with Alex Smith and so many other teams like him. Your investing in 60 million in a player you have no idea that can play. If your wrong at QB your screwed for years. Thats why i would go with as safe a pick as i could. Pioli is not Carl Peterson!!!! Not only that but Peterson liked 30 and up veterans up QB. Cassel is only 26.

So what your saying is we could be like the Ravens or Falcons who drafted a QB from a pro style offense, or we can be like the 49ers and draft a QB from the spread offense? The "safe pick" usually ends up being the guy who is the bust.

Duffman
02-03-2009, 02:47 PM
In case you haven't noticed the drafting the last 3 years was pretty decent. Alot of Herms picks will be cornerstones on this team for years to come. I think with Pioli and Kuharic together it will only get better.

LOL I think you might want to recheck Herms first two drafts.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:26 AM
No offense big rat, but I think we should do the opposite of what you think at QB. Aren't you the same guy who was hyping up Huard over Thigpen AND Pennington? What about your boy Chase Daniel you were pimping so hard? Honestly if Pioli wants to go the Cassel route I would rather him just draft Daniels backup at Missou.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 03:33 AM
LOL I think you might want to recheck Herms first two drafts.

Lets Talk about it!
2006
1. Tamba Hali - 135 solo tkles, 41 assist, 18.5 sacks, 1 int, 8 forced fumbl.
2. Bernard Pollard - 163 solo tkles, 36 assist, 1 sack, 3 ints, 4 forced fumbl.
3. Brodie Croyle
5. Marcus Maxie
6. Tre Stallings
6. Jeff Webb
7. Jarad Page - 99 tkles, 1 sack, 10 ints.

2007
1.Dwayne Bowe - 156 rec, 2017 yrds, 12.9 avg. per catch, 12 TD
2.Turk McBride - 36 tkles, 1 sack
3. DeMarcus Tyler - 37 tkles.
5. Kolby Smith - 507 yards, 3.4 average, 3 TDs.
5. Justin Medlock
6. Herbert Taylor - Solid Contributor in 16 games last year.
7. Michael Allan

2008
1. Glenn Dorsey - 32 solo tkles, 14 assist, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble
1. Branden Albert -Started 15 games, allowed 4.5 sacks, 2 sacks missed by RB
2. Brandon Flowers - 62 solos tkles, 7 assist, 1 forced fumb, 2 ints, 1 int TD return.
3. Jamaal Charles - 357 yards, 5.3 average, 1 TD
3. Brad Cottam
3. DaJuan Morgan - 14 tackles
4. William Franklin - 83 yards, 11.9 average.
5. Brandon Carr - 70 solo tkles, 3 assists, 2 ints.
6. Barry Richardson
6. Kevin Robinson
7. Brian Johnston
7. Mike Merrit

From the 3rd to 6 rounds of the 2006 draft there is only 2 players who have become great starters.. Leon Washington and Brandon Marshall.. Brandon Marshall would have been nice. Washington and Marshall are the only 2 players to get excited about out of those 90 some picks.

Turk Mcbride i feel will be a good rotational player but C Ryan Kalil could have been had with that pick.. QB Trent Edwards could have been had with the pick used to get Tank Tyler in the 3rd. But thats HIND SIGHT! Other than those 2 not much to get excited about in those 40 picks. Cant really blame Herm for trying to feel needs in Mcbride and Tyler. I think Tyler will be one hell of a D Tackle before its over. Hali is a good LE, not a RE..

2006 - Hali, Pollard, Page, worth the pick.
2007 - Bowe, Tyler, Smith, Taylor, worth the pick.
2008 - Dorsey, Albert, Flowers, Charles, Cottam, Morgan, Franklin, Carr, Richardson, Merritt, worth the pick. Johnston has showed flashes of a Jared Allen type. Will need 2 to 3 years to put it together.

Out of 26 picks, 18 of those are going to factor into KC's success for a long time.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 03:43 AM
No offense big rat, but I think we should do the opposite of what you think at QB. Aren't you the same guy who was hyping up Huard over Thigpen AND Pennington? What about your boy Chase Daniel you were pimping so hard? Honestly if Pioli wants to go the Cassel route I would rather him just draft Daniels backup at Missou.

U damn Right i was pushing Huard! With something other than the leagues worst Offensive O Line he would have done a hell of job. U think Pennington would have success behind this O Line you have another thing coming! Pennington had success because they took an O tackle #1... At the time Thigpen was throwing balls that only WRs with Rocket Shoes could have caught.. Thigpen developed 100 times the QB he was from the beginning of the season to the end and that is why he deserves to the QB in 09 unless they bring in Cassel. Because Stafford is going #1 to Detroit..

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:45 AM
If you are grading players before they are in the NFL for three years, then your a joke. So out of the the draft three years ago we have Hali, Pollard, and Page. WOW, not a single cornerstone player.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:47 AM
U damn Right i was pushing Huard! With something other than the leagues worst Offensive O Line he would have done a hell of job. U think Pennington would have success behind this O Line you have another thing coming! Pennington had success because they took an O tackle #1... At the time Thigpen was throwing balls that only WRs with Rocket Shoes could have caught.. Thigpen developed 100 times the QB he was from the beginning of the season to the end and that is why he deserves to the QB in 09 unless they bring in Cassel. Because Stafford is going #1 to Detroit..

Thigpen didn't develop at all, we started running the spread offense instead of a pro style offense. Cassell is going to get sacked more than Huard behind this line. Detroit could just as easily take Sanchez if they do take a QB, and I don't give a **** who it is I'll take either.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:50 AM
But back to the draft, Herm is going to play the guys he drafts for a few years until he realizes he needs better players, just like Vermiel did with free agents.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:54 AM
Now notice the drastic change to the roster from the time Vermiel left to now, you seriously think Pioli and the new HC aren't going to reoverhaul most of the roster?

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:58 AM
Honestly I would seriously consider not watching the Chiefs anymore if Pioli pulled a Carl and landed us Cassel.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:00 AM
If you are grading players before they are in the NFL for three years, then your a joke. So out of the the draft three years ago we have Hali, Pollard, and Page. WOW, not a single cornerstone player.

F U K OFF! Go back and play your XBox Punk! Out of 190 Picks Santanio Holmes, Nick Mangold, Kiwanuka, Devin Hester, Brandon Marshall, Leon Washington, are the only ones i would say are Cornerstones! Its documented that the Giants would have took Hali over Kiwanuka!

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:02 AM
Thigpen didn't develop at all, we started running the spread offense instead of a pro style offense. Cassell is going to get sacked more than Huard behind this line. Detroit could just as easily take Sanchez if they do take a QB, and I don't give a **** who it is I'll take either.

U need to take a look around and notice half the NFL primarily run the Spread or a modified version there of.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:04 AM
U need to take a look around and notice half the NFL primarily run the Spread or a modified version there of.

You need to take a look around and notice the shotgun isn't the spread. On top of that you need to notice that there is a huge huge difference between using it and it being your only means of offense.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:04 AM
Honestly I would seriously consider not watching the Chiefs anymore if Pioli pulled a Carl and landed us Cassel.

Then your not a Chiefs fan are you? I have been a KC diehard since 1993 and will be till the Day that i die! Go jump on the Super Bowl winner year in and year out like the rest of the country does.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:05 AM
Also I have a serious question. Are you a big guy and/or played Oline in school? That is the one and only logical explanation I can come up with as to why you want another LT.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:06 AM
Then your not a Chiefs fan are you? I have been a KC diehard since 1993 and will be till the Day that i die! Go jump on the Super Bowl winner year in and year out like the rest of the country does.

I bet you shed a tear when Carl left didn't you? Don't worry, if Pioli brings in Cassel its the Carl Peterson era all over again! Why are you so into quick fixes and being mediocre instead of building a great team?

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:08 AM
You need to take a look around and notice the shotgun isn't the spread. On top of that you need to notice that there is a huge huge difference between using it and it being your only means of offense.

The hell its not! 3, 4, 5, wide reciever sets all over the NFL who mainly use that and only that. Wide Splits on the O lineman. SPREADING OUT THE FIELD! Thats exactly what the Spread is!

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:10 AM
The hell its not! 3, 4, 5, wide reciever sets all over the NFL who mainly use that and only that. Wide Splits on the O lineman. SPREADING OUT THE FIELD! Thats exactly what the Spread is!

:laugh:

You should just stick with college football, because you don't understand the NFL.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:13 AM
I bet you shed a tear when Carl left didn't you? Don't worry, if Pioli brings in Cassel its the Carl Peterson era all over again! Why are you so into quick fixes and being mediocre instead of building a great team?

No Sir! Carl needed to go awhile back but i supported my team! U think Sanchez is the answer?? 1 year of starting experience in college? U think thats the guy that should get a 60 million dollar contract.. Hes a 2nd round pick who is going to go much higher than he should in a terribly weak QB Class.. No hes not worth the #3 at this point, he should have stayed in school and got some experience.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:13 AM
You have to be able to run a pro offense in the NFL, Thigpen can't run a pro offense. How can you possibly argue that? Yes a lot of teams run variants at times, but no team runs exclusively out of the shotgun like we have to with Thigpen. Since you claim to be a Chiefs fan, I'm assuming you seen him at the begining of the year in a pro style offense vs at the end of the year in the spread offense right?

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:16 AM
No Sir! Carl needed to go awhile back but i supported my team! U think Sanchez is the answer?? 1 year of starting experience in college? U think thats the guy that should get a 60 million dollar contract.. Hes a 2nd round pick who is going to go much higher than he should in a terribly weak QB Class.. No hes not worth the #3 at this point, he should have stayed in school and got some experience.

He has one more year of college experience than Cassel does. He also started for the team Cassel was a backup on. Also you do realize you groom QB's and build the team around them right? You also realize he likely wouldn't start his rookie year right? Other than experience Sanchez compares to Stafford in every way, and in my opinion Stafford is the best prospect in years. To say hes not worth the pick this year is very laughable, especially when people say hes easily a top 5 pick next year. Stafford and Sanchez are the best two pro prospects in college right now.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:18 AM
There are going to be questions about every player every year and there always has been. There were people who doubted Manning and there were people who doubted Elway. There never has been and never will be a perfect prospect. Risk is something you have to take, especially when you consider that the majority of the time the "safest pick" usually ends up being the biggest bust.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:22 AM
A franchise QB is something this team needs to draft, we don't need more retread QB's. You seriously need to do some research on the other teams who are great or are establishing themselves as great teams and get away from what Carl has taught you.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:25 AM
Also I have a serious question. Are you a big guy and/or played Oline in school? That is the one and only logical explanation I can come up with as to why you want another LT.

U damn right! I played LT and RG all the way through Semi Pro that included a National Title Game. That doesn't make a damn! I will enlighten you with a couple explanations.. 1. OT will be the best player on the Board at #3. 2. All good teams have a dominant O line. 3. U have to be able to run the ball to convert 3 downs, its pretty hard to stay on the field without a O line. Sound Familiar at all to u???? 4. Its pretty hard to take 5 to 7 step drops at of your (Pro) Offense when your QB is being planted before step 3. 5. Its impossible to control the clock without a line. I need to paint a better picture for you????

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:25 AM
I don't like Thigpen at all, but at the same time with the current state of the Chiefs he would have more success in this offense than Cassel. Cassel got dropped a lot behind three pro bowl Olinemen throwing the ball to one of the best WR's ever and one of the better WR's in the NFL today. He could only throw for 20 TD's with a team Brady threw 50 TD's with. Cassel is not the Chiefs future, and he will not have much success here. You like to talk about its a big risk, well how do you know Cassel isn't another Derrick Anderson?

Duffman
02-04-2009, 04:28 AM
U damn right! I played LT and RG all the way through Semi Pro that included a National Title Game. That doesn't make a damn! I will enlighten you with a couple explanations.. 1. OT will be the best player on the Board at #3. 2. All good teams have a dominant O line. 3. U have to be able to run the ball to convert 3 downs, its pretty hard to stay on the field without a O line. Sound Familiar at all to u???? 4. Its pretty hard to take 5 to 7 step drops at of your (Pro) Offense when your QB is being planted before step 3. I need to paint a better picture for you????

Oh I know exactly what your talking about. But at the same time its harder to establish a running game with the spread offense in the NFL. OK now I understand that on YOUR board along with other boards that LT COULD be the top prospect available when we draft. BUT a lot of people, including my self have other players ranked higher. Remember no NFL teams draft board looks like Mel Kipers or whoever you pay attention to, and hell most NFL teams have way different boards. It just depends on how high you grade positions, what you run, and so on.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:36 AM
I don't like Thigpen at all, but at the same time with the current state of the Chiefs he would have more success in this offense than Cassel. Cassel got dropped a lot behind three pro bowl Olinemen throwing the ball to one of the best WR's ever and one of the better WR's in the NFL today. He could only throw for 20 TD's with a team Brady threw 50 TD's with. Cassel is not the Chiefs future, and he will not have much success here. You like to talk about its a big risk, well how do you know Cassel isn't another Derrick Anderson?

This was essentially his rookie year!! U not understand that? His development this year is night and day. The 1st and 2nd round picks this year will need to contribute right away unless they sign a bunch of free agents which i do not want. We dont have the luxury of sitting a 1st round QB. If they draft a QB he will play from the get go. We sure know what he can do cant we? Your talking about 2 QBs who have never took a NFL SNAP.. The Question is how do you know?

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:45 AM
Oh I know exactly what your talking about. But at the same time its harder to establish a running game with the spread offense in the NFL. OK now I understand that on YOUR board along with other boards that LT COULD be the top prospect available when we draft. BUT a lot of people, including my self have other players ranked higher. Remember no NFL teams draft board looks like Mel Kipers or whoever you pay attention to, and hell most NFL teams have way different boards. It just depends on how high you grade positions, what you run, and so on.

Well lets see! Offense starts in the trenches.. Defense starts in the trenches.. Therefore it makes sense that is where u should start to build a team.. If your not dominant in the trenches your pissing in the wind. 3 top 10 LTs in the Draft this year, as well as the best Center prospect in years, 2 dominant OGs, Not to mention the RTs in this draft that can start from day 1. A Draft this heavy with O line talent is rare.. But you should know that sense you think you know it all!

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 04:49 AM
Oh I know exactly what your talking about. But at the same time its harder to establish a running game with the spread offense in the NFL. OK now I understand that on YOUR board along with other boards that LT COULD be the top prospect available when we draft. BUT a lot of people, including my self have other players ranked higher. Remember no NFL teams draft board looks like Mel Kipers or whoever you pay attention to, and hell most NFL teams have way different boards. It just depends on how high you grade positions, what you run, and so on.

The Offense is going to change! Which is all the more reason to fix the O line in this Draft.. Orakpo got dominated. So there is no DEs in this draft worthy of going that high.

bigvdebo86
02-04-2009, 04:58 AM
thats stupid if we bring in cassel hes overated he had moss/welker in new england we need to stick with thigpen he is th FUTURE

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 05:07 AM
thats stupid if we bring in cassel hes overated he had moss/welker in new england we need to stick with thigpen he is th FUTURE

I would rather see Thigpen play as well. I'm just trying to look through Pioli's eyes. Cassel is a guy that Pioli is comfortable with.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 05:08 AM
by Bob Gretz |

OK, let’s do this methodically. Obviously, that’s how Scott Pioli is going about finding a new head coach for the Chiefs.

Even more methodically than the Oakland Raiders, who announced Tuesday afternoon that Tom Cable will be announced on Wednesday as their head coach. That leaves the Chiefs as the last open head coaching job right now.

Pioli has been speaking to coaching candidates this week. He’s gotten permission from the Arizona Cardinals to speak with their offensive coordinator Todd Haley, who remains the media and public’s front runner for the job.

The Chiefs new GM isn’t saying anything right now. But his inaction on the coaching front made it obvious he was waiting for somebody still working to finish up their duties. On the staffs of the Cardinals and Steelers, Haley made the most sense.

When they actually meet, I also don’t believe it will be their first conversation about the job. I don’t believe Pioli waits this long without knowing Haley was interested in the job. Whether through a third party or a simple “Hey good luck in Tampa and would you like to be my head coach?” type phone call, there has been contact.

You can bet when they meet, Clark Hunt will be at that meeting as well and it’s going to be important for Haley to impress the Chiefs Chairman of the Board.

While I don’t believe this is the first and only interview that Pioli has done for the Chiefs head coaching job, all the signs say this is his man.

Stay tuned.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 11:33 AM
This was essentially his rookie year!! U not understand that? His development this year is night and day. The 1st and 2nd round picks this year will need to contribute right away unless they sign a bunch of free agents which i do not want. We dont have the luxury of sitting a 1st round QB. If they draft a QB he will play from the get go. We sure know what he can do cant we? Your talking about 2 QBs who have never took a NFL SNAP.. The Question is how do you know?

Every team that drafts this high isn't good, but that doesn't stop them from letting the QB sit their rookie year anyways. So what your saying is your afraid of risk? Yet you want to risk our season by using a QB who can't run a pro offense? How do you know he isn't another Derrick Anderson?

Duffman
02-04-2009, 11:36 AM
Well lets see! Offense starts in the trenches.. Defense starts in the trenches.. Therefore it makes sense that is where u should start to build a team.. If your not dominant in the trenches your pissing in the wind. 3 top 10 LTs in the Draft this year, as well as the best Center prospect in years, 2 dominant OGs, Not to mention the RTs in this draft that can start from day 1. A Draft this heavy with O line talent is rare.. But you should know that sense you think you know it all!

Yes you should build in the trenches. But we are done with first round picks there. We used a first round pick on a DT and LT last year. Also I'm not sure who your talking about unless your looking at draft boards from the first week of the season, because outside the top LT's this draft isn't as good on the Oline as last year.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 11:39 AM
Also if you don't want a bunch of free agents you might as well start looking for a new team now. You do know Scott Pioli is the GM right? He is going to bring in a bunch of no name free agents.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 12:52 PM
Our new HC is going to come in here and laugh when he sees the QB and offense we run. We are going to install a real offense. Yeah sure the spread can and likely will still be used some, but we aren't going to go anywhere with just the spread offense.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Tyler Thigpen - QBFeb. 4 - 10:41 am etChiefs beat writer Kent Babb believes Tyler Thigpen has earned the right to begin training camp as the team's starting quarterback.
The team is almost certain to add a quarterback this offseason, whether it's early in the draft or through free agency. Thigpen excelled in the "pistol" spread offense, but he was dreadful under center. That's going to be a problem if Todd Haley is brought in as the new head coach.
Source: Kansas City Star

Nvchiefsfan
02-04-2009, 01:59 PM
I agree if Stafford is there at #3 I don't see how they could pass him up. Detroit will take a page from the Dolphins last year and draft a Oher or Monroe. I am a USC fan but I see Sanchez dropping like Leinart or even Quinn.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 02:28 PM
Yes you should build in the trenches. But we are done with first round picks there. We used a first round pick on a DT and LT last year. Also I'm not sure who your talking about unless your looking at draft boards from the first week of the season, because outside the top LT's this draft isn't as good on the Oline as last year.

I agree the Offense needs to be more balanced if they have the personel to run anything else.. Fixing that O line should be the top Priority because its the key to becoming more balanced. Of course you have the Top LTs Smith, Monroe, Oher. Jason Smith OT from Baylor is starting to catch fire and with a good combine be among the first couple selected. Ya got the best Center Prospect Alex Mack to come out in along time. You got OG Duke Robinson from Oklahoma that is an absolute Road Grader that should go anywhere from 18-32, can play any position on the line. OT Eben Britton Arizona will go in the 1st. You got OG Herman Johnson LSU which at 6'8 386 comparing pure athletic ability to his size may be among the best ever, another road grader in the 2nd. OT Troy Kopog Tulane has 1st round talent will go in the 2nd. C Max Unger Oregon as the ability to start from day one will go in the 2nd. OT Loadholt OU will be a beast at RT should go in the 2nd. OT Boone Ohio State will be another RT taken late 2nd early 3rd. Jamon Merideth OT South Carolina should go late 2nd early 3rd.

There is going to be alot of O Lineman go early this year.. This is a loaded class at O line. We need 1 or 2 of those guys.. Trading out of that pick would be ideal.. I would rather have Duke Robinson or Alex Mack somewhere in the 20 range. It isn't going to happen unless somebody falls in love with one of the top OTs.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 02:30 PM
Also if you don't want a bunch of free agents you might as well start looking for a new team now. You do know Scott Pioli is the GM right? He is going to bring in a bunch of no name free agents.

I was talking about High Priced Free Agents. He wont spend the money as he shouldn't. Suggs is a guy that should be pursued unless he gets franchised or resigns.

BigRatt
02-04-2009, 02:44 PM
You have to be able to run a pro offense in the NFL, Thigpen can't run a pro offense. How can you possibly argue that? Yes a lot of teams run variants at times, but no team runs exclusively out of the shotgun like we have to with Thigpen. Since you claim to be a Chiefs fan, I'm assuming you seen him at the begining of the year in a pro style offense vs at the end of the year in the spread offense right?

Again the kid was a rookie! He was throwing passes 10 foot over the top of everybodys head at the start of the season because they wasn't getting anybody blocked. Pretty hard to be good from under Center when your getting smacked before u turn your head around. Thigpen is a mobile QB. Put a Pocket Passer back there in your (PRO OFFENSE) and see what happens without fixing the O Line. They drop him back there in the Shotgun with more time and he starts to make plays and develop. Before you know it hes throwing darts and looking like a starting QB. I say take another dominant O lineman and pick up a decent free agent lineman and let Thigpen show what he can do. Whether you like it or not Thigpen put them in the last 7 or 8 games by a TD or less when no other QB last year could have done that. With a couple more good lineman i know he can play from under center. He needs work on his deep ball get that will come with experience.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:04 PM
Unless the QB is a superstar, new GM's and HC's bring in their own QB. Thigpen isn't close to being good enough for the new regime to pass up their QBotF.

Duffman
02-04-2009, 03:06 PM
I agree the Offense needs to be more balanced if they have the personel to run anything else.. Fixing that O line should be the top Priority because its the key to becoming more balanced. Of course you have the Top LTs Smith, Monroe, Oher. Jason Smith OT from Baylor is starting to catch fire and with a good combine be among the first couple selected. Ya got the best Center Prospect Alex Mack to come out in along time. You got OG Duke Robinson from Oklahoma that is an absolute Road Grader that should go anywhere from 18-32, can play any position on the line. OT Eben Britton Arizona will go in the 1st. You got OG Herman Johnson LSU which at 6'8 386 comparing pure athletic ability to his size may be among the best ever, another road grader in the 2nd. OT Troy Kopog Tulane has 1st round talent will go in the 2nd. C Max Unger Oregon as the ability to start from day one will go in the 2nd. OT Loadholt OU will be a beast at RT should go in the 2nd. OT Boone Ohio State will be another RT taken late 2nd early 3rd. Jamon Merideth OT South Carolina should go late 2nd early 3rd.

There is going to be alot of O Lineman go early this year.. This is a loaded class at O line. We need 1 or 2 of those guys.. Trading out of that pick would be ideal.. I would rather have Duke Robinson or Alex Mack somewhere in the 20 range. It isn't going to happen unless somebody falls in love with one of the top OTs.

I think you are giving a lot of those guys way too much draft value.

fightwookies
02-04-2009, 04:04 PM
You have to be able to run a pro offense in the NFL, Thigpen can't run a pro offense. How can you possibly argue that? Yes a lot of teams run variants at times, but no team runs exclusively out of the shotgun like we have to with Thigpen. Since you claim to be a Chiefs fan, I'm assuming you seen him at the begining of the year in a pro style offense vs at the end of the year in the spread offense right?

The main difference between the spread offense is that lining up farther back allows the quarterback a half second more to scan the defense because he doesn't have to worry about tripping over his feet (Kurt Warner, playoffs). Whats the main reason our quarterbacks didn't have enough time at the beginning of the season? our line couldn't give them time, and it got two of them hurt. although thigpen had more success in the shotgun, its because that scheme covered inadequacies in the o line. therefore, we need to upgrade the line before we can be effective from under center (which apparently means pro-style). also, maybe upgrading the line will open a hole in the run game. that would be nice.

GO YANKS
02-04-2009, 08:21 PM
I've been sayin this all along MATT CASSEL MATT CASSEL MATT CASSEL MATT CASSEL!!!!!!

BigRatt
02-05-2009, 01:50 AM
The main difference between the spread offense is that lining up farther back allows the quarterback a half second more to scan the defense because he doesn't have to worry about tripping over his feet (Kurt Warner, playoffs). Whats the main reason our quarterbacks didn't have enough time at the beginning of the season? our line couldn't give them time, and it got two of them hurt. although thigpen had more success in the shotgun, its because that scheme covered inadequacies in the o line. therefore, we need to upgrade the line before we can be effective from under center (which apparently means pro-style). also, maybe upgrading the line will open a hole in the run game. that would be nice.

Finally, Someone who knows what needs to be done!

BigRatt
02-05-2009, 01:53 AM
I think you are giving a lot of those guys way too much draft value.

Thats your opinion.. But this is a spectacular draft for O Lineman.. A draft that doesn't come around to often.

Duffman
02-05-2009, 02:25 AM
Its so annoying how the common Chiefs fan clings on to **** players.

fightwookies
02-05-2009, 12:48 PM
Tyler Thigpen - QBFeb. 4 - 10:41 am etChiefs beat writer Kent Babb believes Tyler Thigpen has earned the right to begin training camp as the team's starting quarterback.
The team is almost certain to add a quarterback this offseason, whether it's early in the draft or through free agency. Thigpen excelled in the "pistol" spread offense, but he was dreadful under center. That's going to be a problem if Todd Haley is brought in as the new head coach.
Source: Kansas City Star

First of all, I like thigpen, but he hasn't earned anything yet. If anything he has earned a chance to prove himself, that is all. huard, croyle, gray, martin are worthless and have no future. that said, I definately think we should get another young guy because thigpen may well falter. however, i just don't like the guys at the top for the money. rhett bomar has the best arm in the draft and will easily be obtained in the third round. if he still played at OU, he would have been the top pick, no questions. (supporting cast is important)

Duffman
02-05-2009, 02:44 PM
First of all, I like thigpen, but he hasn't earned anything yet. If anything he has earned a chance to prove himself, that is all. huard, croyle, gray, martin are worthless and have no future. that said, I definately think we should get another young guy because thigpen may well falter. however, i just don't like the guys at the top for the money. rhett bomar has the best arm in the draft and will easily be obtained in the third round. if he still played at OU, he would have been the top pick, no questions. (supporting cast is important)

If thats what you think about Bomar you don't know anything about QB prospects. Also him having the biggest arm is the funniest thing I've heard so far today.

fightwookies
02-05-2009, 09:52 PM
Finally, Someone who knows what needs to be done!

thanx, i think so too.


If thats what you think about Bomar you don't know anything about QB prospects. Also him having the biggest arm is the funniest thing I've heard so far today.

thats too bad, for a second there, i thought maybe there was someone intelligent enough to debate with. guess not

BIGpoppaRose33
02-06-2009, 10:36 PM
I don't know if this has been discussed yet but i will put it out there and see the reaction.. What if KC trades their 2nd rounder and a 3rd for Cassel. (Since their 2nd is so early its similar to a 1st round pick, the 3rd round is debatable could be a future pick or whatnot). And then say with the 3rd overall pick the Chiefs pick Crabtree if available. Someone who wouldn't really be thought at too much before they would have aquired Cassel. Possibly just the Patriot fan optimism talking from me. I'd like to see what you KC Chiefs fans think..

Duffman
02-07-2009, 01:31 AM
I don't know if this has been discussed yet but i will put it out there and see the reaction.. What if KC trades their 2nd rounder and a 3rd for Cassel. (Since their 2nd is so early its similar to a 1st round pick, the 3rd round is debatable could be a future pick or whatnot). And then say with the 3rd overall pick the Chiefs pick Crabtree if available. Someone who wouldn't really be thought at too much before they would have aquired Cassel. Possibly just the Patriot fan optimism talking from me. I'd like to see what you KC Chiefs fans think..

I would shoot myself in the head if we passed on someone like Stafford or Sanchez for Cassel. I would think about signing him as a free agent, but he got the tag so that can't happen.

In_Ned_I_Trust
02-07-2009, 05:39 AM
I don't know if this has been discussed yet but i will put it out there and see the reaction.. What if KC trades their 2nd rounder and a 3rd for Cassel. (Since their 2nd is so early its similar to a 1st round pick, the 3rd round is debatable could be a future pick or whatnot). And then say with the 3rd overall pick the Chiefs pick Crabtree if available. Someone who wouldn't really be thought at too much before they would have aquired Cassel. Possibly just the Patriot fan optimism talking from me. I'd like to see what you KC Chiefs fans think..

Yeah it is the Patriot fan optimism talking. Cassel is not as valuable as you guys seem to think he is. System guy pure and simple. Another thing that might put off us is Pioli knows how mediocre he really is.

Drafting Crabtree is just ********.

jnb58
02-07-2009, 10:08 PM
I would shoot myself in the head if we passed on someone like Stafford or Sanchez for Cassel. I would think about signing him as a free agent, but he got the tag so that can't happen.

Now I really hope we get Cassel. :pray:

Duffman
02-08-2009, 05:22 AM
Now I really hope we get Cassel. :pray:

I hope the Lions trade for him. Or that they at least just stick with Culpeper since they now have the OC Culpepper had in Minnesota when he was having his great years. I really think Stafford can fall to the Chiefs, even if he doesn't Sanchez is just as good just with less experience.

fightwookies
02-08-2009, 04:06 PM
I would shoot myself in the head if we passed on someone like Stafford or Sanchez for Cassel. I would think about signing him as a free agent, but he got the tag so that can't happen.

sounds like a winner to me. lol stafford will go to detroit. sanchez is a second round talent propped up by a weak class. cassel would be horrendous behind kcs line, and we'd have to give up the #3 pick to get him so we wouldn't be able to upgrade the line.

Duffman
02-08-2009, 04:19 PM
sounds like a winner to me. lol stafford will go to detroit. sanchez is a second round talent propped up by a weak class. cassel would be horrendous behind kcs line, and we'd have to give up the #3 pick to get him so we wouldn't be able to upgrade the line.

:laugh:

You realize Linhan loves Culpepper right? As for Sanchez, if hes a second round talent than so is Stafford because they are about as equal of talents as it gets with prospects. If bad QB's go in the first round because of bad talent like you seem to think there would have been a few Senior QB's being talked about as first rounders all year, but there never was.

griff141
02-08-2009, 06:40 PM
The Pats are firm on getting a first rounder for Cassel, which they will get if they trade him, but he is not worth the 3rd overall pick. Any team signing Cassel will most likely be spending a late round first and a third at least. I think Detroit and Minnesota are more likely candidates than KC.

Duffman
02-09-2009, 04:06 AM
If thats what its going to take no one is going to trade for him. But I hope the Chiefs aren't a likely candidate. I personally think they would take a 2nd and later round pick for him though.

Thearchitect33
02-09-2009, 06:15 AM
I don't like Cassel, I don't like Sanchez or Stafford, and I am so sick of hearing from Duff about Thigpen's inadequacies that I want to vomit. Here's the deal Duff, the kid did what he could in a bad situation behind a worse offensive line. There's no denying that the kid is a gamer and that he earned at the very least the shot to prove what he can do when he enters camp as a guy who will get the majority of the reps in whatever offense we decide to run. You have to remember that the reason he wasn't good in the original offense was because he was the third quarterback in training camp, behind Huard and Croyle. If he got some training, he could run your precious "pro-style" offense (which, by the way, really means nothing, there's no way with all the different systems out there that you can establish a consensus and call it pro-style). You really do enjoy beating a dead horse don't you? It's so easy to keep spewing the same garbage instead of actually thinking about something once in awhile huh? As I said on another thread, you aren't half as informed as you think you are, or you would be making a paycheck from your football genius. Let's just say that there aren't any sports pundits who are considering the fact that you aren't paid for your knowledge a great disservice to the game. So, sit back, enjoy the forum, post your opinion, but less people would completely detest you if you tried to actually consider the fact that your opinion could be, and judging from the opinions you've expressed recently, most likely will be wrong.

redross006
02-09-2009, 12:22 PM
I won't disagree that Thiggy deserves a shot to be the starter but he must learn to take snaps from under center. The spread is part of what made us so bad this past season because the defenses were able to adjst to it at halftime and we were unable to do ANYTHING in the 2nd half. So if thiggy is still only able to succeed by running the spread than we must go in another direction at QB. Idon't like the idea of trading for Cassel. He's not worth what the Pats are asking. (he's aformer 7th rd pick) I also don't think any of the QB's in the draft are worth a 3rd pick overall. Isay we draft OL in the first and pick up a QB in a later rd.(Pioli is supposedly known for finding talent in these situations) I also think we should try to aquire a QB through FA or through a trade.

Duffman
02-09-2009, 01:37 PM
I don't like Cassel, I don't like Sanchez or Stafford, and I am so sick of hearing from Duff about Thigpen's inadequacies that I want to vomit. Here's the deal Duff, the kid did what he could in a bad situation behind a worse offensive line. There's no denying that the kid is a gamer and that he earned at the very least the shot to prove what he can do when he enters camp as a guy who will get the majority of the reps in whatever offense we decide to run. You have to remember that the reason he wasn't good in the original offense was because he was the third quarterback in training camp, behind Huard and Croyle. If he got some training, he could run your precious "pro-style" offense (which, by the way, really means nothing, there's no way with all the different systems out there that you can establish a consensus and call it pro-style). You really do enjoy beating a dead horse don't you? It's so easy to keep spewing the same garbage instead of actually thinking about something once in awhile huh? As I said on another thread, you aren't half as informed as you think you are, or you would be making a paycheck from your football genius. Let's just say that there aren't any sports pundits who are considering the fact that you aren't paid for your knowledge a great disservice to the game. So, sit back, enjoy the forum, post your opinion, but less people would completely detest you if you tried to actually consider the fact that your opinion could be, and judging from the opinions you've expressed recently, most likely will be wrong.

Just keep proving why your opinion doesn't matter. But since you seem to think QB's who run gimmick offenses are so good, why don't you give me a few examples? I'll give you a few examples of why you shouldn't. Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Andre Ware just to name a few. Please, be my guest. Can you name any successful QB out of a gimmick offense besides Drew Brees?

BigRatt
02-09-2009, 04:06 PM
Just keep proving why your opinion doesn't matter. But since you seem to think QB's who run gimmick offenses are so good, why don't you give me a few examples? I'll give you a few examples of why you shouldn't. Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Andre Ware just to name a few. Please, be my guest. Can you name any successful QB out of a gimmick offense besides Drew Brees?

I can! Ben Rothesberger! Ran a Modified version of the Spread at Miami of Ohio.. How many super bowl rings does he have on his finger.. Truth is there are as many "pro style" busts as there are Spread offense busts at QB. I doing research to show that now..


Heres some more info on your precious Stafford!

By Todd Mcshay

1. Detroit Lions (Record: 0-16): Matthew Stafford*, QB, Georgia
Yes, his inconsistency can be frustrating, his footwork needs polishing and he must learn to take some heat off his fastball when throwing underneath. But after studying the game tape of the entire 2009 quarterback class, it's clear to us that Stafford is the top dog. His combination of accuracy, arm strength, surprising mobility and experience in a pro-style offense (in the SEC) is second to none.

Here's the catch-22 for the Lions, though: Although they need a franchise quarterback and there isn't enough depth in this year's class to feel good about the chances of finding one 19 picks later, Stafford does not grade out as highly as Matt Ryan did a year ago, and eight of the past 11 underclassman quarterbacks drafted in the first round have either failed to meet expectations or been outright busts. This is the type of franchise-defining decision that could make or break the career of new general manager Martin Mayhew.

2. St. Louis Rams (2-14): Jason Smith, OT, Baylor

The Rams desperately need to upgrade their offensive front, and Jason Smith, Andre Smith and Eugene Monroe will be in the discussion. Don't be surprised if the senior from Baylor wins out on potential. He is a converted tight end and has the best feet of the group.

3. Kansas City Chiefs (2-14): Aaron Curry, LB, Wake Forest

Tyler Thigpen might not be the long-term answer at quarterback for the Chiefs, but it's hard to imagine new GM Scott Pioli veering from the "Patriot way" he learned during his time in New England. Drafting a defensive lineman such as DE Everette Brown or DT B.J. Raji is a possibility, and beefing up the offensive line isn't out of the question, either. But the Chiefs spent a pair of first-round picks on those spots last year, and Pioli hit a home run with the first-round pick of linebacker Jerod Mayo in New England last season. Plus, Curry has the versatility Pioli looks for, and he fits an area of need.

4. Seattle Seahawks (4-12): B.J. Raji, DT, Boston College

Michael Crabtree appears to be the obvious selection for a Seahawks team in desperate need of a playmaker at wide receiver, but Raji's stock is soaring after his dominant showing at the Senior Bowl, and a top priority for the Seahawks this offseason is to find a difference-maker at defensive tackle.

fightwookies
02-09-2009, 04:09 PM
Just keep proving why your opinion doesn't matter. But since you seem to think QB's who run gimmick offenses are so good, why don't you give me a few examples? I'll give you a few examples of why you shouldn't. Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Andre Ware just to name a few. Please, be my guest. Can you name any successful QB out of a gimmick offense besides Drew Brees?

steve young. steve mcnair. jim mcmahon won a superbowl. byron leftwich has been effective when healthy. chad pennington. you could argue that leaf's and couch's career's were cut short by injury before they had a chance. the spread hasn't been around long enough to list a whole lot more than that. just because you can list a couple o failures doesn't mean it can't work. andre ware played in the run & shoot, which is similar, but also allows the qb to take the snap from under center. (which apparently means pro-style?) would it really matter if i start listing "pro style" quarterbacks who were busts? heath shuler, kyle boller, matt leinart ("the poster child for pro-style quarterbacks")...................................

Duffman
02-09-2009, 04:10 PM
Rothlisberger ran more of a pro style than a spread, plus unlike all the other spread QB's he actually has the size and ability you look for. As for the juniors who bust, they are all out of gimmick offenses.

BigRatt
02-09-2009, 04:11 PM
Just keep proving why your opinion doesn't matter. But since you seem to think QB's who run gimmick offenses are so good, why don't you give me a few examples? I'll give you a few examples of why you shouldn't. Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Alex Smith, Rex Grossman, Andre Ware just to name a few. Please, be my guest. Can you name any successful QB out of a gimmick offense besides Drew Brees?

Here is Wikipedias definition of the Spread Offense just to Clarify your imagination..

The spread offense is an offensive scheme in American football and Canadian football that is used at every level of the game including the NFL, CFL, NCAA, NAIA, CIS, and high schools across America and Canada. The spread offense begins with a no-huddle approach with the quarterback in the shotgun formation much of the time. The fundamental nature of the spread offense involves spreading the field horizontally using 3, 4, and even 5-receiver sets (some implementations of the spread also feature wide splits between the offensive linemen). The object of the spread offense is to open up multiple vertical seams for both the running and passing game to exploit, as the defense is forced to spread itself thin across the field (a "horizontal stretch") to cover everyone.

Professional teams have also used various versions of this scheme beginning with the former Houston Oilers, the Atlanta Falcons, and Detroit Lions. The Pittsburgh Steelers have been one of the most recent NFL teams using a spread offense, with the team successfully adopting it under offensive coordinator Bruce Arians in 2007 to take advantage of quarterback Ben Roethlisberger's talents. The 2007 New England Patriots also utilized the spread with quarterback Tom Brady and wide receivers Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Donte Stallworth, and Jabar Gaffney. In addition, the San Diego Chargers (1980s) and the various West Coast schemes developed by Bill Walsh and the San Francisco 49ers (1980s) stemmed their offenses, in many ways, from Ellison's and Davis' designs. In addition, a new offense known as the "spread-flex" is emerging among many programs. This offense combines the flex-bone and the spread offense together in order to cause confusion for defenses and to take advantage of mismatches. This dynamic offense has worked its way up into the smaller colleges and universities such as Air Force who use it very effectively. It can be effective in many ways to spread the ball out to the wide receivers as well as using a lot of pre-snap shifting and motion to run the option zone read plays. Imagine combining the offenses of Navy (a heavily run-oriented option offense that has led the NCAA in rushing in every season since 2003) and Texas Tech (one of the most pass-oriented college offenses) and you have the "spread-flex". The 2008 Miami Dolphins are the most recent team to implement some form of the spread offense in their offensive schemes. Lining up in a "wildcat" formation, the Miami Dolphins, borrowing from Gus Malzahn's college spread offense, “direct snap” the ball to their running back, Ronnie Brown.[2] Brown is then able to read the defense, and either pass or keep the ball himself. Thus far, defenses have had difficulty stopping this new-look Miami offense—an offense which has stunned the New England Patriots at New England and the San Diego Chargers at Miami thus far in the 2008 season.

BigRatt
02-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Rothlisberger ran more of a pro style than a spread, plus unlike all the other spread QB's he actually has the size and ability you look for. As for the juniors who bust, they are all out of gimmick offenses.

I'm going to take a wild guess that the NFL is using more and more of the spread idea because the "Spread" is taking over at the College and High School levels all across the country.

Duffman
02-09-2009, 04:20 PM
Like I have stated a hundred times before, I know all teams will use it and continue to. There is a huge difference between using it and it being the only offense your QB can run.

Duffman
02-09-2009, 04:23 PM
steve young. steve mcnair. jim mcmahon won a superbowl. byron leftwich has been effective when healthy. chad pennington. you could argue that leaf's and couch's career's were cut short by injury before they had a chance. the spread hasn't been around long enough to list a whole lot more than that. just because you can list a couple o failures doesn't mean it can't work. andre ware played in the run & shoot, which is similar, but also allows the qb to take the snap from under center. (which apparently means pro-style?) would it really matter if i start listing "pro style" quarterbacks who were busts? heath shuler, kyle boller, matt leinart ("the poster child for pro-style quarterbacks")...................................

I have a question, do you know what the spread offense is?

Duffman
02-09-2009, 04:24 PM
I think some of you are very confused about using it and just flat out running it.

Duffman
02-09-2009, 04:29 PM
We have a new owner who has stated multiple times we need to draft a QBotF. We have a new GM and a new HC. They are going to draft their QB in the first round of this NFL draft.

Kcfanbaby212*
02-09-2009, 06:36 PM
people....we lost 10 games in the 4th quarter last season, because of the spread O...why was the spread so ineffective last year after the first half? Thigpen is only holding us back, instead of improving us. We cant grind the clock out in the 4th quarter, if were in shotgun all the damn time.

Duffman
02-09-2009, 08:13 PM
people....we lost 10 games in the 4th quarter last season, because of the spread O...why was the spread so ineffective last year after the first half? Thigpen is only holding us back, instead of improving us. We cant grind the clock out in the 4th quarter, if were in shotgun all the damn time.

Defenses know exactly what your doing when you play offense like Thigpen limits us to. People fail to realize that. Sure if we only played one half it would be great, but there are four quarters in the game. Thigpen loves don't watch the second half and are obsessed with stats.

fightwookies
02-09-2009, 10:01 PM
Like I have stated a hundred times before, I know all teams will use it and continue to. There is a huge difference between using it and it being the only offense your QB can run.

Like i've said before, i completely agree with that.


I have a question, do you know what the spread offense is?

yes, and those were all primary spread quarterbacks in college. BYU's coach is called "the father of the spread". he started running it because his teams were physically outmatched and it gave his guys a chance to compete. circa chiefs 2008, outmatched up front. so many overblown questions about mcnair coming out of college as to whether he could take a snap from center and command a huddle (mostly people trying to knock a black quarterback). leftwich was hurt so much at marshall that he literally couldn't line up under center sometimes GMAC bowl 02 lineman carrying him down the field, line up in shotgun every play. and roethlisberger played a lot of it by the way.


Defenses know exactly what your doing when you play offense like Thigpen limits us to. People fail to realize that. Sure if we only played one half it would be great, but there are four quarters in the game. Thigpen loves don't watch the second half and are obsessed with stats.

basically your argument is that he is incapable of taking the ball from under center and handing it to the runningback? thats the easiest part of what a quarterback can do. thats what you hire trent dilfer to do. for a guy who got no reps in training camp, and no action since college two years ago, thigpen played incredibly well given the o-line problems which took out the other two quarterbacks and the running game. again, i reiterate that thigpen wasn't the reason we ran a spread offense, it was our lines inability to run block and pass protect that limited the offense. your misplacing the blame.

fightwookies
02-09-2009, 10:22 PM
do you know who else had 18 td and 12 int his first year after taking over early in the season? Tom brady, but he had a team around him.

Duffman
02-10-2009, 12:04 AM
When Thigpen is under center we are handing the ball off. When we is in the shotgun we are passing. There is a lot more to the pro offense than handing the ball off, if it was nearly as easy as you make it sound then hell yeah Thigpen should be our future. It takes QB's years go develop the proper mechanics to be a good QB. And actually Brady didn't have a team around him, they were expected to be the first team to go 0-16 that year.

BigRatt
02-10-2009, 02:03 AM
Defenses know exactly what your doing when you play offense like Thigpen limits us to. People fail to realize that. Sure if we only played one half it would be great, but there are four quarters in the game. Thigpen loves don't watch the second half and are obsessed with stats.

U and FanBaby just pissed me off! How in the blazing F U K do u call the 4th quarter woes this team had last year Thigpens fault? In the traditional Offense they were rushing for what 25 to 30 yards a game on 25 carries and scoring what 10 points or less. Poor kid was getting smacked before the Ball cleared the Centers Nut Sack when they tried to throw deep.. We got no run game, u got no time to throw the ball. What does that leave left for ways to move the ball? Either throwing slants and screens the whole game hoping something shakes loose or going to the Shotgun for more time. So then the Offense goes to the Gun and starts putting up 22 to 30 points a game. Guess what? With a halfway decent Defense this team probally makes the Playoffs last year on the hands of THIGPEN!!!

BigRatt
02-10-2009, 02:08 AM
people....we lost 10 games in the 4th quarter last season, because of the spread O...why was the spread so ineffective last year after the first half? Thigpen is only holding us back, instead of improving us. We cant grind the clock out in the 4th quarter, if were in shotgun all the damn time.

Without this Offense there is no leads in the 4th quarter to grind out.. Thigpen is not what is held this team back. As a matter of fact his legs and ability to throw on the run ARE THE ONLY REASON THIS TEAM WAS COMPETITIVE AT ALL LAST YEAR!!!

BigRatt
02-10-2009, 02:16 AM
Like I have stated a hundred times before, I know all teams will use it and continue to. There is a huge difference between using it and it being the only offense your QB can run.

Your so full of yourself! Half the NFL only runs it what 75% of the time? Give me a better O Line and a better Defense and this team goes deep in playoffs.

Thearchitect33
02-10-2009, 02:18 AM
It does take QB's years to develop properly, you're right about that Duff, which is why Thigpen deserves at least a look. He has had exactly 0 years to develop.

Also, as Big Ratt and others have said, behind a decent line, Thigpen may have been more successful at QB. I'm not saying the guy is the future, I'm just saying that he deserves a fair shake before we write him off. By the way, you can accuse me of being only concerned with the stats, but the bottom line is that you have to score more points than the opposing team to win, something we were definitely not going to do when our offense couldn't score to save their lives, something Thigpen remedied, even if it was only in the first half. Basically he scored more points in the first half than the previous QB's could score in the entire game and you're throwing a fit? With our defense we need all the points we can get, and you're not going to fix that problem in one offseason no matter who you pick up in free agency and the draft.

By the way, according to your theory, the NFL might as well disband now because the vast majority of the top QB's in college ball spend most of their time in a spread offense as opposed to a "pro-style" offense. If that's your argument you are going to have to come up with something better than the idea that a QB who ran a spread offense in college can't run a "pro-style" offense in the NFL because soon most if not all of the top college QB's will come from a spread offense. This year you have Stafford and Sanchez to hide behind, but what happens next year when Tebow, Bradford, McCoy, and others who are the best at their position are all from spread teams?

BigRatt
02-10-2009, 02:49 AM
It does take QB's years to develop properly, you're right about that Duff, which is why Thigpen deserves at least a look. He has had exactly 0 years to develop.

Also, as Big Ratt and others have said, behind a decent line, Thigpen may have been more successful at QB. I'm not saying the guy is the future, I'm just saying that he deserves a fair shake before we write him off. By the way, you can accuse me of being only concerned with the stats, but the bottom line is that you have to score more points than the opposing team to win, something we were definitely not going to do when our offense couldn't score to save their lives, something Thigpen remedied, even if it was only in the first half. Basically he scored more points in the first half than the previous QB's could score in the entire game and you're throwing a fit? With our defense we need all the points we can get, and you're not going to fix that problem in one offseason no matter who you pick up in free agency and the draft.

By the way, according to your theory, the NFL might as well disband now because the vast majority of the top QB's in college ball spend most of their time in a spread offense as opposed to a "pro-style" offense. If that's your argument you are going to have to come up with something better than the idea that a QB who ran a spread offense in college can't run a "pro-style" offense in the NFL because soon most if not all of the top college QB's will come from a spread offense. This year you have Stafford and Sanchez to hide behind, but what happens next year when Tebow, Bradford, McCoy, and others who are the best at their position are all from spread teams?

Hell Ya! 17 points should win ya a ball game. He did that as a Rook in a really bad team atmosphere as far as talent around him goes. As far as i'm concerned he deserves to start next season and see what can he can do with a better supporting cast and hopefully a better D. The spread is taking over at the High School and College level and before long the Spread will be only offense ran at those levels.

BigRatt
02-10-2009, 03:04 AM
Hey Duff! Heres a little NUGGET for ya! Physical Tools dont make Great QBs.. Great QBs all have a couple things in Common.. They have great Instincts and they all make great Decisions. Offensive Type doesn't dictate that! But Playing Time does! Playing these guys are the only way u find out unless you have a crystal ball to look into. Thats why giving these guys 60 mill before they ever take a damn snap is insane and the NFL SHOULD and WILL limit what the TOP 10 picks can be paid in the Draft.

Duffman
02-10-2009, 11:19 AM
It does take QB's years to develop properly, you're right about that Duff, which is why Thigpen deserves at least a look. He has had exactly 0 years to develop.

Also, as Big Ratt and others have said, behind a decent line, Thigpen may have been more successful at QB. I'm not saying the guy is the future, I'm just saying that he deserves a fair shake before we write him off. By the way, you can accuse me of being only concerned with the stats, but the bottom line is that you have to score more points than the opposing team to win, something we were definitely not going to do when our offense couldn't score to save their lives, something Thigpen remedied, even if it was only in the first half. Basically he scored more points in the first half than the previous QB's could score in the entire game and you're throwing a fit? With our defense we need all the points we can get, and you're not going to fix that problem in one offseason no matter who you pick up in free agency and the draft.

By the way, according to your theory, the NFL might as well disband now because the vast majority of the top QB's in college ball spend most of their time in a spread offense as opposed to a "pro-style" offense. If that's your argument you are going to have to come up with something better than the idea that a QB who ran a spread offense in college can't run a "pro-style" offense in the NFL because soon most if not all of the top college QB's will come from a spread offense. This year you have Stafford and Sanchez to hide behind, but what happens next year when Tebow, Bradford, McCoy, and others who are the best at their position are all from spread teams?

Thats why I say we have to draft one this year before its too late.

Duffman
02-10-2009, 11:22 AM
Hey Duff! Heres a little NUGGET for ya! Physical Tools dont make Great QBs.. Great QBs all have a couple things in Common.. They have great Instincts and they all make great Decisions. Offensive Type doesn't dictate that! But Playing Time does! Playing these guys are the only way u find out unless you have a crystal ball to look into. Thats why giving these guys 60 mill before they ever take a damn snap is insane and the NFL SHOULD and WILL limit what the TOP 10 picks can be paid in the Draft.

I agree they need to make great decisions and have great instincts. They also have to have the proper mechanics which Stafford and Sanchez both have from playing in a pro offense already and to be "great" you have to have all the physical tools which both have. By my definition they are the best two QB's in years, one just doesn't have as much playing experience. One is technecally a senior in college and the other has three years of starting experience. You learn in practice and you also learn on the field. Cassel didn't play a season at USC but practice sure seemed to help him a lot.

BigRatt
02-10-2009, 01:08 PM
I agree they need to make great decisions and have great instincts. They also have to have the proper mechanics which Stafford and Sanchez both have from playing in a pro offense already and to be "great" you have to have all the physical tools which both have. By my definition they are the best two QB's in years, one just doesn't have as much playing experience. One is technecally a senior in college and the other has three years of starting experience. You learn in practice and you also learn on the field. Cassel didn't play a season at USC but practice sure seemed to help him a lot.

I'm by no means saying Cassel is great.. I would like to see him play on a team with a supporting cast similiar to KCs before i say anything like that. Cassel is not worth our #3 either.

Duffman
02-10-2009, 01:14 PM
I'm by no means saying Cassel is great.. I would like to see him play on a team with a supporting cast similiar to KCs before i say anything like that. Cassel is not worth our #3 either.

Without a doubt. On another note, I think if Stafford or Sanchez had played for Oklahoma this year people would think they are the best prospects ever.

fightwookies
02-10-2009, 02:27 PM
Without a doubt. On another note, I think if Stafford or Sanchez had played for Oklahoma this year people would think they are the best prospects ever.

would you think they are best prospects ever, given that they would have spent the year in a spread? or would you hate them for doing what a quarterback does in throwing the football? taking a center exchange and dropping back are some of the most basic and simplest fundamentals. you don't have to do it your whole life to be good at it. thigpen is more than athletic enough to do it. did you not see him running for his life all season, three to seven steps backward is so amazingly easy if your line can hold up for more than half a second.

In the 4th quarter, defenses know you are going to try to run the ball, it makes no difference if they see the quarterback lined up under center. they all know whats coming, it was our lines inability to block that hurt us in the fourth quarter. our lack of a running game made us one dimensional, once people stopped respecting it (halftime or so), they owned us.

Duffman
02-10-2009, 02:36 PM
would you think they are best prospects ever, given that they would have spent the year in a spread? or would you hate them for doing what a quarterback does in throwing the football? taking a center exchange and dropping back are some of the most basic and simplest fundamentals. you don't have to do it your whole life to be good at it. thigpen is more than athletic enough to do it. did you not see him running for his life all season, three to seven steps backward is so amazingly easy if your line can hold up for more than half a second.

In the 4th quarter, defenses know you are going to try to run the ball, it makes no difference if they see the quarterback lined up under center. they all know whats coming, it was our lines inability to block that hurt us in the fourth quarter. our lack of a running game made us one dimensional, once people stopped respecting it (halftime or so), they owned us.

You should just stick with high school and college football.

fightwookies
02-10-2009, 04:23 PM
You should just stick with high school and college football.

the amount of ignorance you display amazes me.

theboweshow
02-10-2009, 04:39 PM
i agree that i think thigpen deserves a chance. but the fact that pioli has such close ties back to NE makes me believe he will most definitely make an attempt to trade for Cassel. to tell you the truth i would be more happy if they didnt spend the money at QB, instead spent it on free agency, maybe Jordan Gross? although he will be lookin to be the highest paid lineman. but that would take our need away in the draft from O-line, meaning we could draft curry at #3 or stafford/sanchez depending on detroit. we all know st louis is going o-line. but what if we dont go after a big name QB draft and FA wise? sign a guy like ryan fitzpatrick who just started for a whole year with the worst O line in the NFL and bring competition to tyler in camp, make him show us he can do it? this would make our defense better (spending #3 on a derrick brooks like guy in Curry) our o-line better (spenindg #3 on eugene monroe/andre smith) . i mean we have close to 50 mil in cap room. its all there to work out. you have to trust pioli with what he is going to do, the guy has been a front-office phenom. thoughts?

Duffman
02-10-2009, 05:01 PM
QB should always be one of your most expensive players anyways, the #3 pick is going to warrent a **** ton of money anyways so to say we shouldn't use it on a QB because of money is ridiculous. As for Gross, I will pass on paying a RT like an elite LT.

theboweshow
02-10-2009, 05:52 PM
im not saying we shouldnt spend money on a QB to keep more money for FA. what im saying is if we were to keep tyler and bring in some competition maybe a jeff garcia or ryan fitzpatrick, we would be fine, once tyler came in we averaged 21 points a game. he completely revamped our offense and if your remember the miami dolphin game (possibly our best played offensive game all year our run game benefitted from it tremendously. what im trying to imply is by sticking with thiggy and a some competition rather than drafting stafford or sanchez or giving up picks for cassel or whatnot, could hinder our chances at improving at what really cost us our season last year..DEFENSE. we lost SEVEN games by 7 pts or less. i mean cmon. its clear that thigpen can get the job done especially with the offensive gameplans each week going through haley. and as for gross, it doesnt matter what you want, its whats the management wants. i was just throwing the idea out there of maybe them signing him like the jets did with faneca last year. bottomline is you need a O-line to protect the QB dude, u bring in a guy like stafford or sanchez they are going to get david carr'd if we dont get some help. thigpen can run, and turned a lot of sacks and bad protection this year into 10 or 20 yard gains with his legs. his critics tend to overlook that part of his game.

Kcfanbaby212*
02-10-2009, 08:58 PM
would you think they are best prospects ever, given that they would have spent the year in a spread? or would you hate them for doing what a quarterback does in throwing the football? taking a center exchange and dropping back are some of the most basic and simplest fundamentals. you don't have to do it your whole life to be good at it. thigpen is more than athletic enough to do it. did you not see him running for his life all season, three to seven steps backward is so amazingly easy if your line can hold up for more than half a second.

In the 4th quarter, defenses know you are going to try to run the ball, it makes no difference if they see the quarterback lined up under center. they all know whats coming, it was our lines inability to block that hurt us in the fourth quarter. our lack of a running game made us one dimensional, once people stopped respecting it (halftime or so), they owned us.


Explain to me why guys like Brennan, Thigpen...and the list goes on. Tell me exactly why it is they struggle from taking the snap from center, and the worst is trying to a PA pass....because they are so used to watching the D unfold in shotgun, they dont know how to disect the D when they dont have their eyes on it the whole time. Spread QBs dont have to be good....they have the disposal of every WR on the team, and that gives the OL the advantage, because they QB can see the D unfold, and plus its based on quick releases.

Duffman
02-10-2009, 09:24 PM
We will never be a Super Bowl team with Thigpen, you wont go far when the only offense you can run is the Spread offense.

fightwookies
02-10-2009, 10:11 PM
Explain to me why guys like Brennan, Thigpen...and the list goes on. Tell me exactly why it is they struggle from taking the snap from center, and the worst is trying to a PA pass....because they are so used to watching the D unfold in shotgun, they dont know how to disect the D when they dont have their eyes on it the whole time. Spread QBs dont have to be good....they have the disposal of every WR on the team, and that gives the OL the advantage, because they QB can see the D unfold, and plus its based on quick releases.

brennan does not have an nfl arm. as many college quarterbacks running the spread do not. daniel, harrell. that doesn't apply to thigpen, he has an nfl arm. he can make the throws required. people seem to forget that when you line up under center is when you never take your eyes off the defense. from under center, you walk up to the line scanning the D, stick your hands under the center and receive the ball. when in the shotgun, you have to take your eyes off the D or else you would never catch the snap. having multiple wideouts is not what gives the line an advantage, if anything that is a detriment as there are no players in the backfield to handle the blitz. the line gets the advantage from the quarterback starting five yards in the backfield so that the d has to run that far to get him. so he played in a spread in college. so did steve young. thigpen obviously is not a finished product but is well ahead of any young quarterback not named matt ryan. he will continue to get better if given a chance.

Lebowski
02-10-2009, 11:00 PM
We will never be a Super Bowl team with Thigpen, you wont go far when the only offense you can run is the Spread offense.

Good thing you're not considering the real world, where people can actually GAIN skills and improve in one area or another. The fact that the Chiefs had to run the pistol formation with Thigpen last year doesn't mean that he'll NEVER be good from under center.

There are reasons NFL teams don't run out of that formation... because the speed of defenses neutralizes the benefit... because they don't think they can run as well out of it.... because good defenses can put pressure on with their front four quickly.... because they're afraid they can't MOVE THE BALL and score points out of that formation.

Well guess what, since KC went that way, it helped the Oline out and put reigns on the pass rush because of Thigpens ability to tuck it and run... and we were able to move the ball and score some points. We lost several more games that had little to do with Thigpen or the offense.

Thigpen needs to get better... but thinking that what you saw in his first opportunity ever is the best he has to offer is irrational. Thigpen wasn't prepared last year. Everyone else got hurt and they had to wing it. Because he got thrown into the fire early (and still didn't look awful) doesn't diminish the potential he has. The difference between now and a year ago is he must have more confidence because many players and coaches believe in his abilities now.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Croyle>Thigpen

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Croyle>Thigpen

wow. your ability to spew nonsense is never-ending. what has thigpen done that croyle never will? ....win a game in the nfl as a starting quarterback.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 01:47 AM
wow. your ability to spew nonsense is never-ending. what has thigpen done that croyle never will? ....win a game in the nfl as a starting quarterback.

Croyle can play in a pro style offense, he has a bigger arm, and hes more accurate. If Croyle wasn't injury prone he would be the future and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 01:51 AM
Hell Quinn Gray is a lot better than Thigpen. If Gray had been on the roster as long as Thigpen and knew the playbook he would have been the starter.

BigRatt
02-11-2009, 02:57 AM
Hell Quinn Gray is a lot better than Thigpen. If Gray had been on the roster as long as Thigpen and knew the playbook he would have been the starter.

Damn Brother! U just dont know a good thing when u got it. Thiggy has sugar and will only get better. With a Shaky O Line I will take his mobility and the ability to throw on the run vs a pocket passer any day of the week.

BigRatt
02-11-2009, 03:04 AM
Explain to me why guys like Brennan, Thigpen...and the list goes on. Tell me exactly why it is they struggle from taking the snap from center, and the worst is trying to a PA pass....because they are so used to watching the D unfold in shotgun, they dont know how to disect the D when they dont have their eyes on it the whole time. Spread QBs dont have to be good....they have the disposal of every WR on the team, and that gives the OL the advantage, because they QB can see the D unfold, and plus its based on quick releases.

What u seem to not realize is that without time to stand in the pocket u have to go with quick releases. IF u dont u get planted. QBs have thier eyes off the ball more locating the ball out of the shotgun than they do from under center. Another thing everybody else is failing to realize is the quickness and mobility that Thiggy has. Most QBs dont have the mobility that speed brings.

BigRatt
02-11-2009, 03:10 AM
QB should always be one of your most expensive players anyways, the #3 pick is going to warrent a **** ton of money anyways so to say we shouldn't use it on a QB because of money is ridiculous. As for Gross, I will pass on paying a RT like an elite LT.

I will say Gross is an Elite Tackle period.. Guess how many Elite O lineman we have right now? 1 young one and 1 aging who will retire in 2 years or less. Gross is 28 and probally has 5 quality seasons left in him. I say sign him unless Richardson is ready to go. We are 50 to 55 mil under the cap. I will bring up the John Tait issue, RT has never recovered. U have to have 2 quality Tackles.

But i dont think it happens because Carolina has said Gross is a priority over Peppers. Gross stays in Carolina. Looks like the Cards are going to hit Dansby with the Tag, so he wont make it to FA either.

theboweshow
02-11-2009, 04:29 AM
Hell Quinn Gray is a lot better than Thigpen. If Gray had been on the roster as long as Thigpen and knew the playbook he would have been the starter.

you are crazy if you think quinn gray could do a better job than thigpen did. even when gray was at florida a&m he was a runner with no accuracy but a decent arm. he didnt do much on the jags when garrard got hurt either. thiggy proved he can put up points. we need to address the QB position no matter what, but dont count thigpen out.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 11:53 AM
When Quinn was a starter in Jacksonville for 8 games he had a rating of 85.6 with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. Hes also never had a target as good as Bowe or Gonzalez. He has a career rating of 91.4.

Thigpen had 18 TD's and 12 INT's in six more games with a rating of 76.0 and a career rating of 74.7

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 12:22 PM
Hell Quinn Gray is a lot better than Thigpen. If Gray had been on the roster as long as Thigpen and knew the playbook he would have been the starter.

quinn gray? now your just proving how stupid you are. gray might be a decent quarterback, but what system did he play in college? oh that's right, he was a spread quarterback at florida A&M. your argument defeats itself.

BigRatt
02-11-2009, 12:35 PM
When Quinn was a starter in Jacksonville for 8 games he had a rating of 85.6 with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. Hes also never had a target as good as Bowe or Gonzalez. He has a career rating of 91.4.

Thigpen had 18 TD's and 12 INT's in six more games with a rating of 76.0 and a career rating of 74.7

Quinn also had a better supporting cast down there in the swamp!

Duffman
02-11-2009, 12:54 PM
quinn gray? now your just proving how stupid you are. gray might be a decent quarterback, but what system did he play in college? oh that's right, he was a spread quarterback at florida A&M. your argument defeats itself.

Drew Brees also played in a spread offense in college. There is just a bigger learning curve, Thigpen has proved he just can't play in a pro style offense while Gray has shown he can. Your an idiot.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 12:55 PM
Quinn also had a better supporting cast down there in the swamp!

:laugh:

Duffman
02-11-2009, 12:57 PM
Thigpen isn't Brady, Manning, Rothlisberger, or anything close. Thigpen can't play in a pro style offense and Thigpen wasn't drafted by Pioli or Haley. They don't give two ***** about him and aren't going to pass up their future QB for him.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 01:54 PM
Drew Brees also played in a spread offense in college. There is just a bigger learning curve, Thigpen has proved he just can't play in a pro style offense while Gray has shown he can. Your an idiot.

thigpen has proven nothing about playing in a pro-style offense, good or bad. the lines incapabilities necessitated a move to the spread. quinn gray proved he can hand the ball off to fred taylor and MJD. remember how san diego hated drew brees before his third season as a starter? they said the same stupid crap as you that he couldn't play in the nfl because of the system he played in college. now he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league. if you want to get into it, thigpen had much better numbers than brees in their first year as starters. give thigpen a chance and you will see what he will become. thanx for shooting down your argument with brees.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 02:09 PM
Thigpen isn't Brady, Manning, Rothlisberger, or anything close. Thigpen can't play in a pro style offense and Thigpen wasn't drafted by Pioli or Haley. They don't give two ***** about him and aren't going to pass up their future QB for him.

they don't give two ***** about any player on the roster. but they will find out who can, and who can't play. pioli is on record saying that he wants to put together a big tough smart fast football team. high character guys. that means aaron curry. not a prima dona like mark sanchez. sanchez is dumb as a box, pioli is not going to draft a player who was suspended from his college team for assault. just not gonna happen, so you can forget about him. stafford is likely going to get picked by the lions. i know you hate cassell as much as i do. arguments about stafford aside, there's not going to be a 'franchise' quarterback there for them to pick, so they will address other areas. its really a nonargument.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 02:40 PM
New regimes like to draft their QB, especially when they are in this situation. The Falcons got a GM from the Patriots and he selected Matt Ryan #3 last year even though many felt he was a reach. At this time last year people though Ryan was a bigger reach than Stafford or Sanchez, and I honestly think Stafford is there when we pick anyways. As for Brees, he was drafted #32 overall and thats a little different than being drafted in the seventh round. Finding a QB like Brees out of the spread is just as rare as finding a HOF QB in the sixth round like the Patriots did. As for Brees, hes the same size as Croyle and would likely be hurt a lot if he didn't have a great like everywhere he went.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 03:02 PM
New regimes like to draft their QB, especially when they are in this situation. The Falcons got a GM from the Patriots and he selected Matt Ryan #3 last year even though many felt he was a reach. At this time last year people though Ryan was a bigger reach than Stafford or Sanchez, and I honestly think Stafford is there when we pick anyways. As for Brees, he was drafted #32 overall and thats a little different than being drafted in the seventh round. Finding a QB like Brees out of the spread is just as rare as finding a HOF QB in the sixth round like the Patriots did. As for Brees, hes the same size as Croyle and would likely be hurt a lot if he didn't have a great like everywhere he went.

so you say that brees would likely be a failure in KC given our line? I agree. Yeah he's great and is capable of leading teams deep in the playoffs and leading the nfl in passing, but not by himself. the falcons situation was different than ours as vick was gone and they were left with joey harrington. if we had joey harrington and a hobbled byron leftwich as our qb, i would love to see matt stafford be the pick. QB is not yet our biggest issue and is not overwhelming talented in the draft so I really just don't think we'll go that way.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Stafford and Sanchez are both more "talented" than Ryan so that might not be the word you want to use.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 03:04 PM
the more i look at them though, stafford is well ahead of sanchez, and if they do pick stafford, i wouldn't be completely against it, i just think we have other areas of higher need.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:05 PM
I think the best thing for the Chiefs to do is draft A. Stafford or B. Sanchez. Sit them for a year and let Thigpen or someone else start. I would rather be stuck with two QB's and make a decision than end up not having a QB. See Brees/Rivers, Plummer/Cutler, Anderson/Quinn, Kitna/Palmer, Warner/Manning, Maddox/Rothlisberger, and so on.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:06 PM
the more i look at them though, stafford is well ahead of sanchez, and if they do pick stafford, i wouldn't be completely against it, i just think we have other areas of higher need.

The only thing Stafford is ahead of Sanchez in is experience. On that note, while Sanchez doesn't have as much starting experience, he has a year on Stafford in terms of being in a college practice. Yeah its not the same as game experience, but you still learn a lot in college. Stafford has a slightly stronger arm, but they are basically the same. Sanchez is more accurate and has better footwork though.

theboweshow
02-11-2009, 03:10 PM
duffman i cant believe u are still arguing this. QUINN GRAY? if he was so good how come he backed up thigpen? and yes croyle has the arm but he doesnt have the legs of thigpen and he cant stay healthy. theres no way pioli and haley are going to ignore what thigpen did last year with tony G and dwayne bowe. you keep saying hes not a pro-style QB, but he wasnt our problem last year. it was our defense. im not saying hes our future, im not saying he isnt. i think whats best for us is if they brought in some QB like a jeff garcia if not cassel or warner to throw in there and maybe teach thigpen a few things. it is almost certain that if we dont get a trade for our draft pick, we will be going with a defensive player most likely curry. MAYBE everette brown or orakpo depending on their combines. and if we do go o line, we go either eugene monroe or andre smith. pioli found QBs like brady and cassel late in drafts, you dont think that trend will continue? cmon, he has his way of doing things and history has proven that what he does is successful, hes not gonna shy away from that.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:14 PM
duffman i cant believe u are still arguing this. QUINN GRAY? if he was so good how come he backed up thigpen? and yes croyle has the arm but he doesnt have the legs of thigpen and he cant stay healthy. theres no way pioli and haley are going to ignore what thigpen did last year with tony G and dwayne bowe. you keep saying hes not a pro-style QB, but he wasnt our problem last year. it was our defense. im not saying hes our future, im not saying he isnt. i think whats best for us is if they brought in some QB like a jeff garcia if not cassel or warner to throw in there and maybe teach thigpen a few things. it is almost certain that if we dont get a trade for our draft pick, we will be going with a defensive player most likely curry. MAYBE everette brown or orakpo depending on their combines. and if we do go o line, we go either eugene monroe or andre smith. pioli found QBs like brady and cassel late in drafts, you dont think that trend will continue? cmon, he has his way of doing things and history has proven that what he does is successful, hes not gonna shy away from that.

Gray didn't start because he was signed late and didn't know the playbook.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 03:15 PM
The only thing Stafford is ahead of Sanchez in is experience. On that note, while Sanchez doesn't have as much starting experience, he has a year on Stafford in terms of being in a college practice. Yeah its not the same as game experience, but you still learn a lot in college. Stafford has a slightly stronger arm, but they are basically the same. Sanchez is more accurate and has better footwork though.

yeah, as you say its really not the same though. I mean he was running the scout team and such. i don't think that necessarily counts for much. I mean, he may have picked up some knowledge from leinart, but i don't know if dating supermodels and ballroom dancing translates to football. and I really don't see them drafting a player at three with any character 'flags'. I know that whole assault thing on him was probably bogus, but it just doesn't put out a good perception with the first pick of your new regime. i would argue that whatever stats stafford put up against great defenses in the sec for a couple of years trumps anything sanchez did against the weak pac 10 d's or penn state.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:16 PM
I think its funny that since Pioli is from the Patriots hes the one who drafted Brady, even though he had a lesser role with the team when Brady was drafted. Also, the Falcons signed a Patriot to be their GM but Brady didn't stop them from drafting Ryan did he? Cassel wouldn't be successful with this team, Thigpen would be a lot more productive for us than Cassel.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:17 PM
yeah, as you say its really not the same though. I mean he was running the scout team and such. i don't think that necessarily counts for much. I mean, he may have picked up some knowledge from leinart, but i don't know if dating supermodels and ballroom dancing translates to football. and I really don't see them drafting a player at three with any character 'flags'. I know that whole assault thing on him was probably bogus, but it just doesn't put out a good perception with the first pick of your new regime. i would argue that whatever stats stafford put up against great defenses in the sec for a couple of years trumps anything sanchez did against the weak pac 10 d's or penn state.

Like I've said a bajillion times, I like Stafford more and think hes there at #3.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 03:18 PM
duffman i cant believe u are still arguing this. QUINN GRAY? if he was so good how come he backed up thigpen? and yes croyle has the arm but he doesnt have the legs of thigpen and he cant stay healthy. theres no way pioli and haley are going to ignore what thigpen did last year with tony G and dwayne bowe. you keep saying hes not a pro-style QB, but he wasnt our problem last year. it was our defense. im not saying hes our future, im not saying he isnt. i think whats best for us is if they brought in some QB like a jeff garcia if not cassel or warner to throw in there and maybe teach thigpen a few things. it is almost certain that if we dont get a trade for our draft pick, we will be going with a defensive player most likely curry. MAYBE everette brown or orakpo depending on their combines. and if we do go o line, we go either eugene monroe or andre smith. pioli found QBs like brady and cassel late in drafts, you dont think that trend will continue? cmon, he has his way of doing things and history has proven that what he does is successful, hes not gonna shy away from that.

although its fair to say that when he drafted brady and cassell, they had established quarterbacks (bledsoe, brady, and i wouldn't put thiggy in their category just yet) and didn't need to take a guy high. and both had time to sit and learn before the team was given to them

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:20 PM
Hell Cassel barely made the roster. Everyone thought the Pats were screwed if Brady went down. They were right too, Cassel greatly underachieved for the amount of talent he was working with. With Brady they make the Super Bowl and AFC Title game at the very least. Cassel didn't even make the playoffs.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 03:22 PM
Like I've said a bajillion times, I like Stafford more and think hes there at #3.

while i may be wrong, i still can't see him getting past the lions. culpepper or fitzpatrick are not the answer and they know it. as you say, new regimes mean new quarterbacks and their is new blood in detroit who will want their guy.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:27 PM
while i may be wrong, i still can't see him getting past the lions. culpepper or fitzpatrick are not the answer and they know it. as you say, new regimes mean new quarterbacks and their is new blood in detroit who will want their guy.

The difference is the Lions new OC loves Culpepper and was his OC when he put up his great season in Minnesota when Moss was hurt half the year, and his best games that year were without Moss. The Lions have the #1, #20, and #33 pick in the draft. The could go LT(maybe even Crabtree) in the first then they can grab Freeman with either the #20 or #33 pick depending on where he grades at the time. Culpepper would be a great mentor for Freeman because they are very simular prospects.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:27 PM
Also the Lions currently have Cullpepper, Kitna, Orvlousky, Stanton, and Henson.

Lebowski
02-11-2009, 03:32 PM
If Quinn Gray is so good, how comes the Jag's just flat out dropped him. And he sat there unemployed for almost two months while noone claimed him. The Chiefs were able to swipe Thigpen away because the Vikings tried to sneak him onto their practice squad. The Vikings were upset that they lost him.

You're agrument about Thigpen is just so far-and-away the dumbest-*** argument I've ever heard.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 03:41 PM
Also the Lions currently have Cullpepper, Kitna, Orvlousky, Stanton, and Henson.

i meant orlovsky, (fitzpatrick? i'm ********) that's true what you say about the OC, if freeman is a franchise qb who can be had later, then why not us pick him later (trade for a pick)? however, i could easily see the qb-less jets drafting freeman at 17, so i don't know if they can bank on freeman later, (chiefs stafford, niners sanchez) but there still will be some quality tackles and line prospects available then, so still, i think they grab stafford early.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:48 PM
Also whos to say the Lions don't grab Curry? Schwartz is a defensive guy and Gun who is their DC loves him some LBers.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 03:51 PM
If Quinn Gray is so good, how comes the Jag's just flat out dropped him. And he sat there unemployed for almost two months while noone claimed him. The Chiefs were able to swipe Thigpen away because the Vikings tried to sneak him onto their practice squad. The Vikings were upset that they lost him.

You're agrument about Thigpen is just so far-and-away the dumbest-*** argument I've ever heard.

Well they also had Garrard and Leftwhich at the time and Garrard barely won the competition. Garrard could have just as easily been cut just like it was a toss up between the Patriots to keep Cassel or whats his nuts duirng TC. As for Thigpen, why did the Vikings who seriously need a QB not keep him? Hell James Harrison has been cut by a bunch of different teams and look at him now with the Steelers. Your logic is flawed. You are a typical Chiefs fan with Carls ways engraved into your head and you love **** players. I bet you loved Printers, Scanlon, Grigsby, and Sippio too didn't you?

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 04:01 PM
Well they also had Garrard and Leftwhich at the time and Garrard barely won the competition. Garrard could have just as easily been cut just like it was a toss up between the Patriots to keep Cassel or whats his nuts duirng TC. As for Thigpen, why did the Vikings who seriously need a QB not keep him? Hell James Harrison has been cut by a bunch of different teams and look at him now with the Steelers. Your logic is flawed. You are a typical Chiefs fan with Carls ways engraved into your head and you love **** players. I bet you loved Printers, Scanlon, Grigsby, and Sippio too didn't you?

haha, boomer was so terrible. but the more you argue on behalf of gray the less i see drafting a qb as a need.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 04:01 PM
Whats funny is I got bashed last year for saying we should draft Glenn Dorsey or Sedrick Ellis first last year, but we had bigger needs and needed a LT. Herm was a defensive guy, hes not going to pass on a potentially great D player. Same with Haley, if he thinks one of those two QB's can be great or if Crabtree will be great he wont pass on them. You should always draft for value and not need. LT's wont be valued high by us because we already have Dorsey. Coverage LB'ers should never be drafted this high and thats exactly what Curry is. There is no DE worth a top three pick this year.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 04:20 PM
good, lets go with crabtree. after haley was part of the reason leinart got benched, i'm not sure if he necessarily believes in young franchise qbs, and i know leinart was there before haley, but the franchise had placed their future with him and haley has seen how that can hurt a franchise. zona lucked out because they had kurt warner. and i wasn't on here a year ago, but was very pleased on draft day when dorsey fell to us, but never was a fan of ellis.

Lebowski
02-11-2009, 04:34 PM
As for Thigpen, why did the Vikings who seriously need a QB not keep him? Hell James Harrison has been cut by a bunch of different teams and look at him now with the Steelers. Your logic is flawed. I bet you loved Printers, Scanlon, Grigsby, and Sippio too didn't you?


1) Because he was a real late-round pick and the farthest away from being ready, because like you said, he'd been in the spread. He was the most likely one they thought was under the radar enough (having come from a DII school) that they could sneak him past waivers.... which was wrong.

2) Hell no, no, a little bit, and no. Boomer could have a little potential just because he's basically new to the position.

Of course there are some exceptional talents that get missed, or get cut. They don't fit a system, they are late bloomers, they get some different coaching they were missing, or coaches evaluate poorly.

This is that concept I'm talking about called "Player DEVELOPMENT". Harrison was green and didn't even want to play he was so bad early in his career. I'm sure YOU would have said "he can't play... get rid of him".

Players need to get stronger, faster, wiser... they need experience, coaching and time.

I don't support Thigpen because he happens to wear a Chiefs jersey. I think he has an incredibly high ceiling, and unlike most extremely mobile QB's, he's a tough guy that can take a hit and play through some bumps and bruises.

I like the kid because of what he's done with very little experience. The offense did a complete 180 when he was in there, and there should have been a lot more wins since he took over. Some weren't his fault at all, some he could have done more... but jeez, he's a 2nd year guy from a DII school. It's the QB position. Give him some time. I would agree needs to be a back-up or third string guy while he learns to play in a pro-style offense. But I'd hate to see a guy with so much potential improving with another organization.

All that said Thigpen (at his salary)> Cassel at $15mill. I'd rather spend that money on a premium DE AND OL and add some more economic options to the mix at QB.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 04:54 PM
if cassell was the answer, 15 mil would be fine. but he sucks if he were playing for the minimum. our team is what, 50 mil under the cap?

theboweshow
02-11-2009, 04:55 PM
1) Because he was a real late-round pick and the farthest away from being ready, because like you said, he'd been in the spread. He was the most likely one they thought was under the radar enough (having come from a DII school) that they could sneak him past waivers.... which was wrong.

2) Hell no, no, a little bit, and no. Boomer could have a little potential just because he's basically new to the position.

Of course there are some exceptional talents that get missed, or get cut. They don't fit a system, they are late bloomers, they get some different coaching they were missing, or coaches evaluate poorly.

This is that concept I'm talking about called "Player DEVELOPMENT". Harrison was green and didn't even want to play he was so bad early in his career. I'm sure YOU would have said "he can't play... get rid of him".

Players need to get stronger, faster, wiser... they need experience, coaching and time.

I don't support Thigpen because he happens to wear a Chiefs jersey. I think he has an incredibly high ceiling, and unlike most extremely mobile QB's, he's a tough guy that can take a hit and play through some bumps and bruises.

I like the kid because of what he's done with very little experience. The offense did a complete 180 when he was in there, and there should have been a lot more wins since he took over. Some weren't his fault at all, some he could have done more... but jeez, he's a 2nd year guy from a DII school. It's the QB position. Give him some time. I would agree needs to be a back-up or third string guy while he learns to play in a pro-style offense. But I'd hate to see a guy with so much potential improving with another organization.

All that said Thigpen (at his salary)> Cassel at $15mill. I'd rather spend that money on a premium DE AND OL and add some more economic options to the mix at QB.

couldnt agree with your more lebowski. ive been saying, the fact we are going to go out there and try to snag a QB with our 3rd pick, then give him a huge contract, or sign cassel for more than hes worth, isnt the solution. although the QB free agent market is limited, there are a few guys we can bring in who can give thigpen some competition, maybe teach him a few things being that last year was really his first year with the offense. i think our pick i think really depends on what the lions do. and if it was my choice, and we HAD to go either stafford or sanchez...id like to go sanchez because of his mobility, and accuracy. u need to have accuracy in this league, and even tho staffords arm is slightly stronger than sanchez, haley's superbowl run was with a QB who is i tihnk 2nd overall in NFL history in accuracy. and with dwayne bowe's butter fingers last year, (im not worried, just part of his adjustment fro mcollege to the pros) i think him and tony g would agree that they would rather have an accurate QB who can move around in the pocket and make some plays with his feet. and if we let larry go, we are going to need a RB ... we have the 2nd pick in the 2nd round...this draft is very important for the future of this team.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 05:06 PM
Matt was benched because his arm isn't strong enough for for what Haley wants in an offense and Thigpens arm isn't any stronger at all. No matter who our QB is they will be learning a new system because Haley is bringing over the Cardinals offense.

theboweshow
02-11-2009, 05:23 PM
Matt was benched because his arm isn't strong enough for for what Haley wants in an offense and Thigpens arm isn't any stronger at all. No matter who our QB is they will be learning a new system because Haley is bringing over the Cardinals offense.

who said anything about a QB learning a new system, all i simply stated is that Haley is going to want a QB with accuracy. that which sanchez has the upper hand in unlike stafford. like i said, kurt warner is one of the msot accurate passers in NFL history, haley knows thats what he needs in a QB for his offensive schemes to succeed.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 06:12 PM
Because I'm saying Thigpen isn't ahead of the game anymore because its a new system. Also Thigpen isn't very accurate anyways. Haley depends on strong arms more than he does accuracy anyways, and Thigpen has a weak arm.

Duffman
02-11-2009, 06:13 PM
Thigpen just doesn't fit a Haley offense in any way.

theboweshow
02-11-2009, 06:22 PM
well i guess we'll just have to wait. i wish feb 27 would come tomorrow i really do.

Lebowski
02-11-2009, 06:59 PM
Because I'm saying Thigpen isn't ahead of the game anymore because its a new system. Also Thigpen isn't very accurate anyways. Haley depends on strong arms more than he does accuracy anyways, and Thigpen has a weak arm.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on our assessments of Thigpen's game. As far as not giving him any credit for being behind the 8ball a little bit because he doesn't know the system..... that's not the point. The point is that Tyler has had a lot farther to come from college than most QB's do. (DII vs DI)

I definitely think it's a stretch to say his arm is "weak". Do you think Kurt Warner came out of college known to have a strong arm? I'll bet Tyler's is stronger... he's not noodle-armed like Huard. I think his accuracy is just fine. He sometimes will airmail a ball, but that has more to do with consistency of mechanics when you throw hurried, and is something that should get better. Yes, he has to get more accurate on deeper routes, but that's a transition all young QB's go through to an extent.

fightwookies
02-11-2009, 10:49 PM
Matt was benched because his arm isn't strong enough for for what Haley wants in an offense and Thigpens arm isn't any stronger at all. No matter who our QB is they will be learning a new system because Haley is bringing over the Cardinals offense.


Because I'm saying Thigpen isn't ahead of the game anymore because its a new system. Also Thigpen isn't very accurate anyways. Haley depends on strong arms more than he does accuracy anyways, and Thigpen has a weak arm.


Thigpen just doesn't fit a Haley offense in any way.

Warner won out over leinart because leinart couldn't make the right reads. not too often in a game are you going to have to air it out 70+ yards. i have seen thigpen throw the deep out in the nfl and that is the hardest throw to make. do you think haley is going to hand the ball off 35 times a game, no. he's going to throw it. and he's going to 'spread' out defenses. apparently you didn't notice that zona lined up in three receiver sets nearly all the time. give the guy some reps in training camp, which he will get at this point no matter what, and you'll see him get better and better.

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 02:14 AM
If Quinn Gray is so good, how comes the Jag's just flat out dropped him. And he sat there unemployed for almost two months while noone claimed him. The Chiefs were able to swipe Thigpen away because the Vikings tried to sneak him onto their practice squad. The Vikings were upset that they lost him.

You're agrument about Thigpen is just so far-and-away the dumbest-*** argument I've ever heard.

He's talking out his azz and he knows it! I dont think Duff is a dummy, he just refuses to face facts because he is a Thiggy Hater! Thats his Right! One in every Crowd! STAFFORD GOES #1.. Because Culpepper is old and dont have long left in the game. Detroit will copy Atlantas moves last year because they are called TRENDS! That leaves KC with the prospect of Sanchez which i dont logically see how they can justify him at #3. His arm is not as strong as Stafford or so i read and he has very limited Game Tape to Study and research for a pick that high and guaranteed that much money! I say it has to come down to Monroe, Curry, or Crabtree.

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 02:40 AM
Stafford and Sanchez are both more "talented" than Ryan so that might not be the word you want to use.

U obviously dont read do u. Because if you did u would see that article i posted the other day showing that Stafford graded out lower than Matt Ryan.

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 02:43 AM
Drew Brees also played in a spread offense in college. There is just a bigger learning curve, Thigpen has proved he just can't play in a pro style offense while Gray has shown he can. Your an idiot.

Your sounding like a complete Moron now. So did Roethlisberger and hes got 2 Super Bowl rings in 4 years!! Your arguement is NULL and VOID. For the last damn time if u think that the Problems from last year stem from Thigpen then u dont know one thing about the game of football. If u would stop Slobbering on Staffords knob and not let the Fore Play cloud your mind then you would be able to see this..

fightwookies
02-12-2009, 03:06 AM
He's talking out his azz and he knows it! I dont think Duff is a dummy, he just refuses to face facts because he is a Thiggy Hater! Thats his Right! One in every Crowd! STAFFORD GOES #1.. Because Culpepper is old and dont have long left in the game. Detroit will copy Atlantas moves last year because they are called TRENDS! That leaves KC with the prospect of Sanchez which i dont logically see how they can justify him at #3. His arm is not as strong as Stafford or so i read and he has very limited Game Tape to Study and research for a pick that high and guaranteed that much money! I say it has to come down to Monroe, Curry, or Crabtree.

probly curry or crabtree. i can't see them going back to the oline in the first again. even if we do need it more...

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 03:35 AM
probly curry or crabtree. i can't see them going back to the oline in the first again. even if we do need it more...

I'm kind of coming around to the idea of Crabtree at #3 to be honest with you. Haley will want another playmaker on the O and if they decide against moving Albert then he just may take his Fitzgerald for this team. Curry sounds like he is the total package and should have strong consideration for it is a need. Thiggy throwing to Crabtree, Bowe, TG, definately puts lead in my pencil!!:dance:

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 03:46 AM
I would love Crabtree if he was comparable to Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson... but hes not that good. Drafting a LB in the top three is bad value, especially if its just a coverage LB like Curry.

Heres what Mayock has to say and he is usually not far off the mark.

"Of all the players on Mayock’s list, Curry might make the most sense for the Chiefs. They didn’t get any reliable play from their linebackers last season and lacked a playmaker after trading Jared Allen.

“I’m a big believer that Aaron Curry might be the safest pick in the entire draft,” Mayock said. “I hate to say that, but when you’re sitting at (No.) 3, the thing you can’t afford to do is make a mistake. Worst-case scenario: He’s got to be a good football player. Aaron Curry is that kind of guy.


“He played (strong side) linebacker in college. He dominated the tight end. But I could very easily see him converting to a 3-4 outside linebacker because he can rush the passer well, he drops in coverage well. He’s a fifth-year kid. He’s mature. I just think he’s the safest guy out there.”

Crabtree would be a night and day upgrade over what we have at #2 WR now.

theboweshow
02-12-2009, 05:02 AM
yea mayock likes us to take curry because hes the safe bet for our team. but i think our draft pick is really gonna depend on what we attack in free agency. we definitely have to go after someone weather its offensively or defensively. i think curry is a good pick for our defense because of his versatility, but id be very happy if we snagged crabtree for haley. but i'd like to us make some noise in free agency, maybe have a jets type offseason. i like crabtree, curry or monroe

fightwookies
02-12-2009, 10:17 AM
crabtree is more comparable to fitzgerald than any one else. he's big and physical and just goes after the ball. he may not have the speed of calvin johnson, but that means he probly won't lose a step in 5 years.

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 03:14 PM
At least one draft expert is on record saying if the choice were up to him and he desperately needed a quarterback, he’d trade for Patriots [team stats] backup Matt Cassel rather than draft either of the top two prospects, Matthew Stafford of Georgia or Mark Sanchez of USC.

ESPN draft guru Mel Kiper said yesterday during a conference call with the media that trading for Cassel would be a wiser decision for Detroit and Kansas City, which hold the No. 1 and No. 3 picks respectively in April’s draft, and can each use help at quarterback.

“If I were Detroit or Kansas City, I would make that move in a heartbeat,” Kiper said. “If you’re asking me if I would rather have Matt Cassel or Matthew Stafford or Mark Sanchez, I’d rather have Matt Cassel.”

Kiper said that while NFL teams have in the past over-reached for one-hit wonders like Rob Johnson, he’s sold on Cassel, who made a huge splash taking over for the injured Tom Brady [stats] this past season.

“This kid had a whole season where he had pressure to deal with, he had circumstances around him that he couldn’t control that he had to deal with, yet he still played well,” Kiper said. “He dealt with bad weather conditions, everything. He showed mobility, athleticism, toughness, accuracy, arm strength, he showed it all. He’s a kid who showed he could have been the No. 1 overall pick in the draft. It was amazing to watch him play this year.

“He came out the same year as those other three (class of 2005) quarterbacks (Alex Smith, Jason Campbell and Aaron Rodgers), and he’s better than those other three, and I’m including (Jay) Cutler (from the class of ’06) in that. I’d rather have Cassel than Cutler. So, to me, I think Cassel is more than worthy of being someone Kansas City or the Detroit Lions goes after.”

Kiper, nevertheless, believes Cassel will remain with the Pats after being slapped with the franchise tag worth $14.65 million, and will be retained as an insurance policy due to the uncertainty surrounding Brady’s knee.

While NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock hasn’t watched or studied Cassel extensively, he knows enough about the quarterbacks in this year’s draft to concur with Kiper.

“Because this year’s draft, in my opinion, doesn’t have a Matt Ryan or a Joe Flacco ready to step in,” Mayock said, “if you’re another team that needs a quarterback ASAP, Cassel is the obvious answer, and that would drive his value.”

Stafford and Sanchez are potential franchise QBs, but need time and seasoning, according to Mayock.

“I try to caution people that the Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco thing was an anomaly. You’re talking about two fifth-year kids,” Mayock said. “Stafford has been a three-year starter, but he’s only three years removed from high school. His physical maturity, his emotional maturity, he’s a couple years behind Matt Ryan. And Mark Sanchez has a grand total of 16 starts at USC. So while they’re both wonderfully talented kids, they’re behind where Ryan and Flacco were on several perspectives.”

Detroit also holds the No. 20 pick in the first round and their pick atop the second round (No. 33 overall). The Chiefs could also bargain with their second-round pick (No. 34). Other teams who may be in the market for a quarterback include Minnesota, Tampa Bay, San Francisco, Chicago and the New York Jets [team stats].

The question is whether the Pats will reap return in a trade or be forced to eat a huge salary cap hit to retain Cassel as a safety net.

Said Kiper: “I think Cassel is contingent on Brady, and if Brady isn’t guaranteed to be 100 percent, and if they don’t feel comfortable putting all their stock in Brady coming off that injury, they’d have to have an insurance policy, and that would have to be Matt Cassel.”

Patriots owner Robert Kraft made an appearance on Howard Stern’s Sirius radio show yesterday. When asked what he would do if Brady didn’t play well next season, Kraft maintained loyalty in his rehabbing quarterback.

“He’s our guy,” said Kraft, who was touring the Sirius studios with Sirius XM CEO Mel Karmazin.

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 03:19 PM
Which means if they take a QB they are going to need to ride the bench and learn for a couple of years. Giving the team no help in terms of the pick and no guarantee he is even a good football player. I still think Stafford goes #1, so it will be Sanchez they have to look at if they go that way.

theboweshow
02-12-2009, 03:34 PM
Which means if they take a QB they are going to need to ride the bench and learn for a couple of years. Giving the team no help in terms of the pick and no guarantee he is even a good football player. I still think Stafford goes #1, so it will be Sanchez they have to look at if they go that way.

i think the more the days pass by the more i believe scott pioli is going to sign matt cassel. i just cant see them putting the franchise on tyler thigpens shoulders after he only won one game. i have been praising thigpen yes because i think he has immense talent, but i think we keep him as a #2 and sign cassel because he is the right QB for our offense. if you had to pick between stafford, a kid who hasnt played an NFL game, started 3 years, never won a collegic championship, mark sanchez, who rode the bench under JDB and Leinart, and started 16 games, or a guy like Cassel who has learned from a HOF QB, has been coached by one of the best, proved he can win under the spotlight and can really leave it all on the field (had a great game against oakland a day after his father passed). i would want cassel out of any of those guys for damn sure. i know everyone has their opinions but from one die-hard fan to another i would be doing backflips and then some if we signed him, traded for him or whatever. and you know pioli isnt going to make a bad trade if we do decide to trade whether its LJ or draft picks because he wont be outsmarted by the organization he helped build and lead to 3 championships in 4 years.

theboweshow
02-12-2009, 04:06 PM
Because I'm saying Thigpen isn't ahead of the game anymore because its a new system. Also Thigpen isn't very accurate anyways. Haley depends on strong arms more than he does accuracy anyways, and Thigpen has a weak arm.

in pete prisco of cbssportsline.com's latest article about what Todd Haley brings to the chiefs organization:

Now it's up to new Chiefs general manager Scott Pioli to get him a quarterback he can win with, perhaps Southern California's Mark Sanchez with the third overall pick. It takes a smart, accurate quarterback to succeed the way Haley plays it.

hey duffman...what was that last sentence? oh yea, smart accurate QB...thats what i read too.

you can read the whole article here: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11347911

Kcfanbaby212*
02-12-2009, 05:28 PM
yeah, watch some of Haleys O from last seaon, and you will realize, their is a heavy vertical passing game...something Thigpen cant provide.

theboweshow
02-12-2009, 05:56 PM
i agree, i think cassel can give us that. i think what you have to think about in our division is the defenses we are going to play twice a year. we need an offense good enough to expose those defenses. i think signing or trading for cassel, would immediately elevate us from the basement of the division to contenders for first place. what we do in the draft wil make us better no matter what, but it all goes back to the QB. we need a QB.

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 08:24 PM
yeah, watch some of Haleys O from last seaon, and you will realize, their is a heavy vertical passing game...something Thigpen cant provide.

Your problem and most fans like u is that you expect players to be popped out of the College S H I T Shoot and perform like Pro Bowlers in their 1st year or otherwise they are crap. Refuse to acknowledge facts when their is clear evidence to support that they are rapidly improving.. Thats FINE! Continue to live in your Fairy Tale World..

BigRatt
02-12-2009, 08:30 PM
i agree, i think cassel can give us that. i think what you have to think about in our division is the defenses we are going to play twice a year. we need an offense good enough to expose those defenses. i think signing or trading for cassel, would immediately elevate us from the basement of the division to contenders for first place. what we do in the draft wil make us better no matter what, but it all goes back to the QB. we need a QB.

I'm just Glad i dont have to make the Decision. As long as he does not require the #3 pick which i really dont think NE will want, I could probally go along with it. Hes definately seasoned and experienced and Pioli definately knows his strengths. They definately need another QB who can compete with Tyler and push him. In a fair and unbiased fight i would not be surprised to see Thigpen win the job no matter who they bring in.

griff141
02-12-2009, 08:36 PM
I'm just Glad i dont have to make the Decision. As long as he does not require the #3 pick which i really dont think NE will want, I could probally go along with it. Hes definately seasoned and experienced and Pioli definately knows his strengths.

You are correct, Bill Belichick will not want the 3rd overall pick because he doesn't believe in paying unproven players the money that goes with such a high pick. Cassel will cost a first rounder, but it doesn't necessarily have to be this years first rounder.

In_Ned_I_Trust
02-12-2009, 09:07 PM
You are correct, Bill Belichick will not want the 3rd overall pick because he doesn't believe in paying unproven players the money that goes with such a high pick. Cassel will cost a first rounder, but it doesn't necessarily have to be this years first rounder.

I still say a HUGE no thanks.

Nvchiefsfan
02-13-2009, 12:55 AM
Or give them LJ and a 3rd.

theboweshow
02-13-2009, 02:20 AM
LJ and our 34th pick for cassel?

theboweshow
02-13-2009, 02:37 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80eb7c8e


watch that matt cassel game. what people forget is the guy can make plays with his feet too, and all he ran was the spread offense in NE. KC would be a perfect fit for him. if we get him crabtree opposite bowe with tony workin the hashes, we are going to be hard to stop. not to mention mark bradley a 4th year 2nd rounder, as our 4th option.

BigRatt
02-14-2009, 12:00 AM
Wait, aren't you the one who doesn't want a QB in the first because it will take a few years for them go grow?

No i dont one of the QBs because Stafford will be long gone and Sanchez is way to raw to give a 55 to 60 million contract to. Niether one grade out to what Ryan or Flacco was last year. I'm perfectly fine going into the season with Thigpen. That pick needs to be Curry, Crabtree, Monroe..

theboweshow
02-14-2009, 02:25 AM
No i dont one of the QBs because Stafford will be long gone and Sanchez is way to raw to give a 55 to 60 million contract to. Niether one grade out to what Ryan or Flacco was last year. I'm perfectly fine going into the season with Thigpen. That pick needs to be Curry, Crabtree, Monroe..

i totally agree with you bigratt-our picks need to be curry crabtree monroe or one of the smiths? . all im saying is, if the draft goes stafford then monroe/smith/smith, is it hard to fathom pioli might consider crabtree with haleys offensive mind. i dont think it is, i think pioli knows he can bring out the best in a WR and crabtree is a star. but curry is the safest pick in the draft. it really depends on what we do in free agency. goin to be an excitin offseason for us

BigRatt
02-14-2009, 02:40 PM
i totally agree with you bigratt-our picks need to be curry crabtree monroe or one of the smiths? . all im saying is, if the draft goes stafford then monroe/smith/smith, is it hard to fathom pioli might consider crabtree with haleys offensive mind. i dont think it is, i think pioli knows he can bring out the best in a WR and crabtree is a star. but curry is the safest pick in the draft. it really depends on what we do in free agency. goin to be an excitin offseason for us

Hell Ya! I just cant wait for the Combine and FA.. I'm tired of waiting!

BIGpoppaRose33
02-14-2009, 03:14 PM
I had brought up the Cassel trade and drafting Crabtree well over a week ago and got absolutely shut down. It makes perfect sense. You can call Cassel a system QB but a lot of teams use that system. And with receivers like Bowe and Crabtree, Cassel will be just as good as he was this past season. And for the guy who said he underachieved, you are oblivious to sports.

griff141
02-15-2009, 06:34 PM
Here's a possible trade scenario, tell me what you think. Matt Cassel and the Pats 2009 first rounder for L.J. and the Chiefs 2010 first rounder. Saw this proposed by a poster on NFL.com and Adam Schefter responded to it saying it makes more sense than most of the trade scenarios he's heard. Thoughts?

poppa12645
02-15-2009, 07:23 PM
that is a terrible deal for us^^ awesome if your the cheifs

Thearchitect33
02-17-2009, 05:02 AM
agreed. I don't think that Belichick would want LJ unless he sees some potential in him to give up his selfish ways for the betterment of the team. I don't see that happening and I don't see the Pats wanting to pay the huge salary that LJ is due per his current deal for the next three years. That means that LJ would have to restructure his deal to make it work, something that any agent who isn't completely braindead would advise against for a player who signed a big deal and has majorly underachieved since. I'm not sold on Cassel anyway.

GameTimeChief
02-17-2009, 03:56 PM
agreed. I don't think that Belichick would want LJ unless he sees some potential in him to give up his selfish ways for the betterment of the team. I don't see that happening and I don't see the Pats wanting to pay the huge salary that LJ is due per his current deal for the next three years. That means that LJ would have to restructure his deal to make it work, something that any agent who isn't completely braindead would advise against for a player who signed a big deal and has majorly underachieved since. I'm not sold on Cassel anyway.

I agree with all said. I also am not sold on cassel just yet. Plus i am not real sure i would like to trade LJ. 2 reasons.

1. Big cap penalty
2. I would like to see if our new coaches and GM can turn LJ into less of a diva. Sorta like moss and the pats.

on the other hand, LJ could continue to cry about a trade causeing a disruption to a team looking for a new path to go down.

TNA110990
02-27-2009, 08:47 AM
If you guys can get him & not have to give up a first round draft pick this year or next year, then do it. I want you guys to succeed & be a playoff team again.

Chiefsbigfan59
02-27-2009, 04:04 PM
I think that bringing Warner might not be a bad idea. He could really help groom a young QB for this offense for a couple of years. If we improve the O-line that is.

K.O.DRO
02-28-2009, 02:02 PM
cassel is yours.