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mdlr52192
01-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Which one of these great hitters would you rather have on your team?

tooch
01-27-2009, 06:56 PM
I's say Manny just because of what he did in the playoffs and in hte last 2 months

Sportfan
01-27-2009, 07:04 PM
close but id have to go with a rod. at least he doesnt quit on your team lol

bagwell368
01-27-2009, 07:12 PM
no contest in post season - Manny

nobody specified fielding position, or fielding it as part of the question

nobody said which year, or career.

both are jerks

But this year coming, or career in total, Manny beats AROD easily.

Gigantes4Life
01-27-2009, 07:45 PM
Hitter or player?

mdlr52192
01-27-2009, 08:22 PM
overall player, sorry

Gould82
01-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Manny is one of he best hitters ever. Manny steps into a lineup and immeditly makes everyone in it better. Look at what happened with the dodgers when manny stepped into the lineup. He helped sure up the younger talent and lead the team into the playoffs. Arod doesn't have the same effect. He's a great hitter, but he doesn't make the ones around him better.

nyyfan4life
01-28-2009, 02:34 AM
Better overall player- A-Rod
Better overall hitter- Manny

That's how I see it.

Matt-the-great
01-28-2009, 05:42 AM
close...but not that close....i mean A-Rod is a consistent monster at the plate.

also:

- he plays a much more in demand and demanding position.
- he plays it pretty well
- he is quite fast on the basepaths
- he is like 4 years younger

Sportfan
01-28-2009, 08:38 AM
age doesnt matter when he says who's the better overall player

todu82
01-28-2009, 10:42 AM
A-Rod

cHi8DaL5LA420
01-28-2009, 11:22 AM
no question about it...manny ramirez... he is clutch...a-rod is not clutch

The L Train
01-28-2009, 11:37 AM
oh jesus christ on a shishkabob...

this is almost as stupid as 'is albert pujols the greatest hitter of all time'...

THESE are the threads that should be closed, not the ones where there is actually a valid point being discussed...

anyone who chose a-rod obviously doesnt watch baseball...

NYY NYJ NYK
01-28-2009, 02:12 PM
anyone who chose a-rod obviously doesnt watch baseball...

Why ?

Both Rameriz and A-Rod are very similar players.
Both players have positive and negative aspects

Also I agree with nyyfan4life

Better Hitter- Manny
Better Player- A-Rod

futureheisman
01-28-2009, 03:29 PM
Manny

One of the best postseason hitters in the history of the game

A Rod one of the worst

ShinobiNYC
01-28-2009, 04:29 PM
Manny

One of the best postseason hitters in the history of the game

A Rod one of the worst


Year Round Tm Opp WLser G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS SH SF HBP
+------+-----+---+---+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+---+--+---+---+---+
10 Postseason Series 3-7 39 147 21 41 9 0 7 17 17 38 .279 .361 .483 4 3 1 0 2
+--------------------+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+---+--+---+---+---+


If that's one of the worst than wow. Btw here is Bonds:


Year Round Tm Opp WLser G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS SH SF HBP
+------+-----+---+---+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+---+--+---+---+---+
9 Postseason Series 2-7 48 151 33 37 8 2 9 24 52 26 .245 .433 .503 9 1 0 4 1
+--------------------+-----+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+-----+-----+-----+---+--+---+---+---+


I guess you rather have Manny than Bonds too.

SidTheKid
01-28-2009, 04:49 PM
Manny might be a better hitter but A-Rod is a great defensive player and runs the bases really well which Manny is not strong at.

Grecs422
01-30-2009, 06:33 PM
Ya i just cant take the way Manny gave up on the redsox A-Rod without a doubt

Dark_Red_Sox
01-31-2009, 07:44 PM
Even though both of their attitudes are horrible, I never really liked A-rod. A-rod is a better overall player but Manny is a better hitter, and more cluch. I'd just barely take Manny.

Seamhead
01-31-2009, 09:38 PM
At this point and time, it's not even close. A-Rod. This shouldn't be a discussion.

Seamhead
01-31-2009, 09:41 PM
no question about it...manny ramirez... he is clutch...a-rod is not clutch

If you're going to chose based on one category, at least do it based on one that we are certain exists, and that if it does, has more than a marginal impact.

Seamhead
01-31-2009, 09:43 PM
Manny is one of he best hitters ever. Manny steps into a lineup and immeditly makes everyone in it better. Look at what happened with the dodgers when manny stepped into the lineup. He helped sure up the younger talent and lead the team into the playoffs. Arod doesn't have the same effect. He's a great hitter, but he doesn't make the ones around him better.

First of all, you have no proof of such a big claim. You're just talking out of your ***. Please don't bring up the small sample size infected time in LA.

Second of all, there have been multiple studies that show that the lineup around you has very little effect on your context-neutral production, IE, ability.

Seamhead
01-31-2009, 09:45 PM
Better overall player- A-Rod
Better overall hitter- Manny

That's how I see it.

Too bad Manny isn't even the better hitter:

Average wOBA last 4 seasons:

A-Rod: .434
Manny: .415

I didn't feel like weighing it, as I'm lazy and on my way out. It's pretty easy to see who the better overall player is, and it's not the unsigned one.

Kyle916
02-01-2009, 02:18 AM
Murs is awesome.

mdlr52192
02-01-2009, 12:00 PM
First of all, you have no proof of such a big claim. You're just talking out of your ***. Please don't bring up the small sample size infected time in LA.

Second of all, there have been multiple studies that show that the lineup around you has very little effect on your context-neutral production, IE, ability.

Well, look at how Manny has changed the lineup of Boston and LA. When he left Boston, Ortiz's production has gone down. It might just be the fact that he's slumpin, but IMO its because Manny's not behind him to protect him, so Ortiz is seein less pitches to hit. In LA, he began to just start tearin up the NL West, and it woke up their offense. I think that its because the fact that most pitchers don't wanna see Manny with runners on, so the pitcher would have to challenge the previous hitters, so they get better pitches to hit, and more of them. He changes the plan for pitchers in a ballgame.

On the other hand, A-Rod. He's a great hitter, don't get me wrong, but the Yanks were fine before him. I'm not using teams' success to say whos better than who, but IMO A-Rod doesn't have the EFFECT on a ballclub that Manny has, and I think that its closer than you're makin it seem.

Gould82
02-01-2009, 12:18 PM
First of all, you have no proof of such a big claim. You're just talking out of your ***. Please don't bring up the small sample size infected time in LA.

Second of all, there have been multiple studies that show that the lineup around you has very little effect on your context-neutral production, IE, ability.

Yeah i guess you're right manny had nothing to do with david ortiz going from a scrub with the twins to a beast with the red sox. Manny also is 2-3 in the world series while arod has yet to play in one. They're both great, but if i want a ring i'd go manny

Benny Eggs
02-01-2009, 12:52 PM
Manny.. By far.. A-rod only hits HR's when the Yankees are up by 10 or loosing by 10 where Manny is one of the best clutch hitters to ever play the game.

Seamhead
02-01-2009, 02:42 PM
Well, look at how Manny has changed the lineup of Boston and LA. When he left Boston, Ortiz's production has gone down. It might just be the fact that he's slumpin, but IMO its because Manny's not behind him to protect him, so Ortiz is seein less pitches to hit.

Ortiz pre-*July 30th (with Manny): .858 OPS
Ortiz post-July 30th (w/o Manny): .900 OPS

Manny did miss some games before he got traded, btw.

*I think that was Manny's last game.


In LA, he began to just start tearin up the NL West, and it woke up their offense.

They started scoring more runs because they replaced Juan Pierre with Manny Ramirez. That's expected....


I think that its because the fact that most pitchers don't wanna see Manny with runners on, so the pitcher would have to challenge the previous hitters, so they get better pitches to hit, and more of them. He changes the plan for pitchers in a ballgame.

Nice guess work.


On the other hand, A-Rod. He's a great hitter, don't get me wrong, but the Yanks were fine before him.

I don't see how the Yanks being fine before him has anything to do with his talent level.


I'm not using teams' success to say whos better than who, but IMO A-Rod doesn't have the EFFECT on a ballclub that Manny has, and I think that its closer than you're makin it seem.

Yet, you have no proof whatsoever of this, and are pulling this out of your *** to create some imaginary point. It's not closer than I'm making it...

Seamhead
02-01-2009, 02:46 PM
Yeah i guess you're right manny had nothing to do with david ortiz going from a scrub with the twins to a beast with the red sox.

Well, yeah. Teams find gems all the time, but I don't see anyone giving credit to the players around them. You know why? Because it's ********, and there is zero proof whatsoever that the lineup around you has any effect on your ability to hit a baseball.



Manny also is 2-3 in the world series while arod has yet to play in one.

Great train of thought there. Eckstein > A-Rod. Why aren't the ****ing Red Sox and A's making their moves using World Series Winning Percentage?!!!? Bunch of morons in those 2 front offices...


They're both great, but if i want a ring i'd go manny

If you had a brain, you'd go with the better player, which at this moment, is A-Rod by far.

Grecs422
02-01-2009, 03:34 PM
On the other hand, A-Rod. He's a great hitter, don't get me wrong, but the Yanks were fine before him. I'm not using teams' success to say whos better than who, but IMO A-Rod doesn't have the EFFECT on a ballclub that Manny has, and I think that its closer than you're makin it seem.

Manny gave up on his team. You want to talk about Manny's effect talk about Boston, he was basically ****ing them over. He was giving them a half *** effort and you know it. He went to the dodgers and actually gave it his all because he was happy. Man **** that he should be happy because he is getting paid to play baseball. Teams shouldn't have to go head over heels to make one player extremely happy. Manny ****ed over the red sox, A-rod never *****ed and moaned about his team and he was on the ****ing Rangers. And please stop saying IMO you aren't as cool as you think.

Seamhead
02-01-2009, 03:37 PM
Let's take a closer look at Manny v. A-Rod...

Hitting:

I'm not going to use a projection here, as I really want to put into perspective how much better Manny is, even without adding a steeper decline for him. Anyways, I'm using the past 4 seasons, and weighing them accordingly (80/65/50/40):

Alex Rodriguez: .435 = 59 batting runs above average per 700 PA.
Manny Ramirez: .414 = 46 batting runs above average per 700 PA.


Fielding:

Same method as hitting. I'll take the past 4 seasons of UZR, then weigh accordingly(same weights as hitting)...

A-Rod: -1.46 runs above average
Manny: -14.691 runs above average

There's actually some evidence that having the wall in Boston affected Manny's numbers negatively, and I'm going to recognize that here by giving Manny an arbitrary +5 runs, which makes his UZR over the past 4 seasons -9.61..

Baserunning:

I'll use Baseball Prospectus baserunning EQR over the past 2 seasons, which is when the data is available, and then weigh accordingly (80/65):

A-Rod: 3.71 runs above average
Manny: -.7 runs above average


Okay, so now we need to add a replacement-level and positional adjustment. I'm also going to take all of those run values and convert them to win values, which, we know by the pythagorean theorem, 1 win = 10.5 runs. That'll give us their WAR during the past 4 seasons. So, the values you'll see below are all in wins.

Alex Rodriguez:
6.62 (hitting)
+ -.13 (Fielding)
+.35 (baserunning)
+2.5 (replacement level)
+.25 (positional adjustment)

= 8.59 WAR per 700 PA. Obviously, he's not going to get 100% playing time, so giving him 600 PA is more realistic.

A-Rod WAR (600 PA): 7.30 wins

Manny Ramirez:
4.41 (hitting)
+ -.92 (fielding)
+ -.06 (baserunning)
+2.5 (replacement level)
+ -.75 (positional)

= 5.18 WAR per 700 PA. Obviously, he's not going to get 100% playing time, so giving him 600 PA is more realistic.

Manny WAR (per 600 PA): 4.40 wins

That's not even close. If you want to convert it back to wins, the difference between the 2 is 30 runs, obviously in A-Rod's favor.

Not only that, but I didn't even added in a decline, which would make the difference between the 2 even greater....

Here are my "sources":

http://www.fangraphs.com/ (check player pages)

http://statcorner.com/ (check player pages)

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=421535

Grecs422
02-01-2009, 03:37 PM
I's say Manny just because of what he did in the playoffs and in hte last 2 months

2 months doesn't make a players career. Look at ALL the stats A-Rod is easily the better OVERALL baseball player

mdlr52192
02-01-2009, 06:00 PM
Ortiz pre-*July 30th (with Manny): .858 OPS
Ortiz post-July 30th (w/o Manny): .900 OPS

Manny did miss some games before he got traded, btw.

*I think that was Manny's last game.



They started scoring more runs because they replaced Juan Pierre with Manny Ramirez. That's expected....



Nice guess work.



I don't see how the Yanks being fine before him has anything to do with his talent level.



Yet, you have no proof whatsoever of this, and are pulling this out of your *** to create some imaginary point. It's not closer than I'm making it...

Well, what I was sayin is that A-Rod doesn't affect a team like Manny can. All these projections you bring up don't prove a point. They are just pointless PROJECTIONS that can't prove anything. I'm not tryin to say that Manny is the better OVERALL player, but you're tryin to say that he's A LOT better, which he's not.

Seamhead
02-01-2009, 06:07 PM
Well, what I was sayin is that A-Rod doesn't affect a team like Manny can.

And this is a big pile of ********. A-Rod is by far the better player, therefore he affects a team much more than Manny ever will.


All these projections you bring up don't prove a point. They are just pointless PROJECTIONS that can't prove anything.

All projections are is a measure of true talent with a decline thrown in. They're based on a what a player has done over x amount of seasons (GHASP). Either way, it's a mute point, as I didn't even use projections in this case. Why? For ignorant sentences like the one I'm replying to right now.


I'm not tryin to say that Manny is the better OVERALL player, but you're tryin to say that he's A LOT better, which he's not.

I'd like to see some evidence of this. So far, all you've given is a big pile of crap, with no proof of it whatsoever.

mdlr52192
02-01-2009, 11:28 PM
And this is a big pile of ********. A-Rod is by far the better player, therefore he affects a team much more than Manny ever will.



All projections are is a measure of true talent with a decline thrown in. They're based on a what a player has done over x amount of seasons (GHASP). Either way, it's a mute point, as I didn't even use projections in this case. Why? For ignorant sentences like the one I'm replying to right now.



I'd like to see some evidence of this. So far, all you've given is a big pile of crap, with no proof of it whatsoever.

Ok, I don't think that A-Rod carried a non-playoff team to the playoffs. Ok what you're saying is projections are using true talent with a decline thrown in. Well again, those are PROJECTIONS. They aren't solid evidence. Manny has a better average than A-Rod has and he's been playing longer, so it's harder to keep it up. A-Rod might have more HRs, but he's not A LOT better than Manny. A-Rod runs better and fields better, but Manny is definitely the better hitter, and the way he affects a team is more than A-Rod has, and the proof is in the record of the Dodgers before him and the record with him, and how they made it into the playoffs. There's your PROOF that Manny isn't A LOT worse than Manny. I agree with you that A-Rod is better, but its not hands-down.

Seamhead
02-01-2009, 11:41 PM
Ok, I don't think that A-Rod carried a non-playoff team to the playoffs.

Okay? Let's completely ignore the fact that A-Rod plays in a division that is 10x better than the NL West. That is, if we can to consider something so stupid such as team level.


Ok what you're saying is projections are using true talent with a decline thrown in. Well again, those are PROJECTIONS.

**** the heck? Did I litteraly not explain to you 1 post ago that projections are based on the past 3-4 seasons? Let me explain it once more: Projections take the past 3-4 seasons, weigh each season according to relevance (last season tells you more about true talent then 3 seasons ago), and add a decline based on age, and in the cases of some, other factors. They're not magically generated through excel.

And, did you completely ignore the fact that I said that I didn't even use projections this time? Learn to read and pay attention.


They aren't solid evidence.

So ironic how this is coming from someone who has yet to provide any sort of tangible proof for any of his points.


Manny has a better average than A-Rod has and he's been playing longer, so it's harder to keep it up.

The hell does this have to do with anything? Am I typing for the sakes of typing? Are you like a brick wall that doesn't receive any information?


A-Rod might have more HRs, but he's not A LOT better than Manny.

Actually, he is. And who even mentioned HRs?


A-Rod runs better and fields better, but Manny is definitely the better hitter,

Alex Rodriguez is, has been, and will continue to be the better hitter. I've given you more than enough data as to why. All you have done is repeat the same moronic statements without anything to back them up.


and the way he affects a team is more than A-Rod has,

I don't think you understand. This statement is a pile of ******** and shall not be repeated until some tangible evidence is presented.


and the proof is in the record of the Dodgers before him and the record with him, and how they made it into the playoffs.

Oh, then Casey Blake must be better than A-Rod, too. He came, and the Dodgers went to the playoffs!

Stupid, misleading logic for the win!


There's your PROOF that Manny isn't A LOT worse than Manny.

Where? You mean all of those blank statements without any tangible proof behind them?

Are you serious? :laugh: :laugh:


I agree with you that A-Rod is better, but its not hands-down.

Yes, it is. I've proved it to you already. Please quit wasting my time, kid. I need to go watch The Office.

tooch
02-02-2009, 12:09 AM
burn.
you got him

k_rock923
02-02-2009, 07:36 AM
Why does everyone stop worshiping OPS+ as soon as it stops favoring their case? I've seen way too many times "OPS+ for X is > Y. Therefore X > Y".

Why does that not stand now, or were those other arguments invalid?


I don't have a problem with the idea that A-Rod is better than Manny but some of the reasoning on these forums is laughable.

steelers=life
02-02-2009, 12:37 PM
Seamhead=pointless stats

Tragedy
02-02-2009, 12:47 PM
Let's take a closer look at Manny v. A-Rod...

Hitting:

I'm not going to use a projection here, as I really want to put into perspective how much better Manny is, even without adding a steeper decline for him. Anyways, I'm using the past 4 seasons, and weighing them accordingly (80/65/50/40):

Alex Rodriguez: .435 = 59 batting runs above average per 700 PA.
Manny Ramirez: .414 = 46 batting runs above average per 700 PA.


Fielding:

Same method as hitting. I'll take the past 4 seasons of UZR, then weigh accordingly(same weights as hitting)...

A-Rod: -1.46 runs above average
Manny: -14.691 runs above average

There's actually some evidence that having the wall in Boston affected Manny's numbers negatively, and I'm going to recognize that here by giving Manny an arbitrary +5 runs, which makes his UZR over the past 4 seasons -9.61..

Baserunning:

I'll use Baseball Prospectus baserunning EQR over the past 2 seasons, which is when the data is available, and then weigh accordingly (80/65):

A-Rod: 3.71 runs above average
Manny: -.7 runs above average


Okay, so now we need to add a replacement-level and positional adjustment. I'm also going to take all of those run values and convert them to win values, which, we know by the pythagorean theorem, 1 win = 10.5 runs. That'll give us their WAR during the past 4 seasons. So, the values you'll see below are all in wins.

Alex Rodriguez:
6.62 (hitting)
+ -.13 (Fielding)
+.35 (baserunning)
+2.5 (replacement level)
+.25 (positional adjustment)

= 8.59 WAR per 700 PA. Obviously, he's not going to get 100% playing time, so giving him 600 PA is more realistic.

A-Rod WAR (600 PA): 7.30 wins

Manny Ramirez:
4.41 (hitting)
+ -.92 (fielding)
+ -.06 (baserunning)
+2.5 (replacement level)
+ -.75 (positional)

= 5.18 WAR per 700 PA. Obviously, he's not going to get 100% playing time, so giving him 600 PA is more realistic.

Manny WAR (per 600 PA): 4.40 wins

That's not even close. If you want to convert it back to wins, the difference between the 2 is 30 runs, obviously in A-Rod's favor.

Not only that, but I didn't even added in a decline, which would make the difference between the 2 even greater....

Here are my "sources":

http://www.fangraphs.com/ (check player pages)

http://statcorner.com/ (check player pages)

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=421535
Well hot damn.

I was going to say A-Rod, but this took it to a whole new level of why I don't even need to back my answer up. :laugh2:

Grecs422
02-02-2009, 02:12 PM
burn.
you got him

You said Manny was better too....stop trying to get your posts by writing not needed stuff like that.

mdlr52192
02-02-2009, 02:34 PM
Okay? Let's completely ignore the fact that A-Rod plays in a division that is 10x better than the NL West. That is, if we can to consider something so stupid such as team level.



**** the heck? Did I litteraly not explain to you 1 post ago that projections are based on the past 3-4 seasons? Let me explain it once more: Projections take the past 3-4 seasons, weigh each season according to relevance (last season tells you more about true talent then 3 seasons ago), and add a decline based on age, and in the cases of some, other factors. They're not magically generated through excel.

And, did you completely ignore the fact that I said that I didn't even use projections this time? Learn to read and pay attention.



So ironic how this is coming from someone who has yet to provide any sort of tangible proof for any of his points.



The hell does this have to do with anything? Am I typing for the sakes of typing? Are you like a brick wall that doesn't receive any information?



Actually, he is. And who even mentioned HRs?



Alex Rodriguez is, has been, and will continue to be the better hitter. I've given you more than enough data as to why. All you have done is repeat the same moronic statements without anything to back them up.



I don't think you understand. This statement is a pile of ******** and shall not be repeated until some tangible evidence is presented.



Oh, then Casey Blake must be better than A-Rod, too. He came, and the Dodgers went to the playoffs!

Stupid, misleading logic for the win!



Where? You mean all of those blank statements without any tangible proof behind them?

Are you serious? :laugh: :laugh:



Yes, it is. I've proved it to you already. Please quit wasting my time, kid. I need to go watch The Office.

Ok. Let's look at BA in the past 3 seasons for both of them

2006: Manny-.321 A-Rod-.290
2007: Manny- .296 A-Rod- .314
2008: Manny- .331 A-Rod- .302

I'll give A-Rod the fact that he was injured for a little bit last year, but Manny looks a little better to me average wise.

Now HRs in the past 3 years:

A-Rod: 124 HRs in 450 games 1 HR every 3.63 games
Manny: 92 HRs in 416 games 1 HR every 4.52 games

A-Rod hits more HRs

Now RBIs in the past 3 years:

A-Rod: 380 RBIs in 450 games 1 RBI every 1.18 games
Manny: 311 RBIs in 416 games 1 RBI every 1.33 games

Pretty close, A-Rod has the edge.

Ok, so I was wrong, and A-Rod is the better hitter, but not by a big margin. Now that we throw in fielding at their positions, A-Rod is better, and he can run bases better. A-Rod is definitely the better player, but you try and make it seem like Manny wasn't the best hitter in the league last year, and you make it seem like we are comparin A-Rod and Joe Crede. It's a considerable margin but not HUGE. Oh, and sorry for the typo befre when I wrote Manny twice, its an accident, calm down. And, what's this deal with callin everyone kid?

tooch
02-02-2009, 02:42 PM
You said Manny was better too....stop trying to get your posts by writing not needed stuff like that.

you are such a tool

mdlr52192
02-02-2009, 02:45 PM
Manny gave up on his team. You want to talk about Manny's effect talk about Boston, he was basically ****ing them over. He was giving them a half *** effort and you know it. He went to the dodgers and actually gave it his all because he was happy. Man **** that he should be happy because he is getting paid to play baseball. Teams shouldn't have to go head over heels to make one player extremely happy. Manny ****ed over the red sox, A-rod never *****ed and moaned about his team and he was on the ****ing Rangers. And please stop saying IMO you aren't as cool as you think.

I don't think that someone givin up on a team determines who has more talent or who is the better player. Yeah, its ****ed up what Manny did, but that doesn't prove a point IMO.

Grecs422
02-02-2009, 02:46 PM
you are such a tool

Good thing i know who you are in real life and im bigger and stronger than you....

Zep
02-02-2009, 02:49 PM
well hot damn.

I was going to say a-rod, but this took it to a whole new level of why i don't even need to back my answer up. :laugh2:

+1

Grecs422
02-02-2009, 02:49 PM
I don't think that someone givin up on a team determines who has more talent or who is the better player. Yeah, its ****ed up what Manny did, but that doesn't prove a point IMO.

Yes it does because if you have someone quitting on their team to me that effects their value as an OVERALL player. And stop trying to start with me cause Seamhead ripped you a new one