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JordansBulls
01-20-2009, 06:07 PM
NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/rob_peterson/01/16/peterson_race.mvp.20090116/index.html)





Race to the MVP - The Top 10

1. LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers | Team Record: 30-7
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
27.7 6.7 6.7 2.0 1.3 .510 .788

Last Week's Rank - 1


2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers | Team Record: 31-7
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
27.2 5.3 4.7 1.3 0.4 .481 .863

Last Week's Rank - 2



3. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Team Record: 21-17
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
28.7 5.1 7.0 2.2 1.6 .479 .755

Last Week's Rank - 4



4. Chris Paul, New Orleans Hornets | Team Record: 23-12
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
20.8 5.5 11.2 2.9 0.1 .496 .894

Last Week's Rank - 3



5. Dwight Howard, Orlando Magic | Team Record: 31-8
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
20.2 13.8 1.5 1.0 3.2 .575 .580

Last Week's Rank - 5


6. Chauncey Billups, Denver Nuggets | Team Record: 27-13
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
18.7 2.6 6.8 1.4 0.2 .420 .905

Last Week's Rank - 6



7. Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs | Team Record: 25-12
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
20.4 10.1 3.6 0.5 1.8 .514 .687

Last Week's Rank - 7



8. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks | Team Record: 22-17
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
25.6 8.7 2.6 0.7 0.8 .472 .913

Last Week's Rank - 8


9. Brandon Roy, Portland Trail Blazers | Team Record: 24-15
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
22.8 4.7 5.2 1.2 0.3 .474 .840

Last Week's Rank - 10



10. Joe Johnson, Atlanta Hawks | Team Record: 23-15
PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT%
21.9 4.5 6.1 1.0 0.4 .425 .812

Last Week's Rank - 9



Dropping out: None

Outside Looking In (OLI):
11. Pau Gasol
12. Yao Ming
13. Kevin Garnett
14. Tayshaun Prince
15. Devin Harris
16. Steve Nash
17. Amar'e Stoudemire
18. Vince Carter
19. Paul Millsap
20. Tony Parker



Kinda disappointed that Dwight is only 5th on the list when he has his team with the best record in the league.

SFloridaSports
01-20-2009, 06:10 PM
dwight isnt doing it all. he has turk rashard lewis, nelson and many other shooters around him

JordansBulls
01-20-2009, 06:29 PM
dwight isnt doing it all. he has turk rashard lewis, nelson and many other shooters around him

Neither is any of the others. He still is the most responsible for his teams success.

cmstophe
01-20-2009, 06:32 PM
I think the clinic of 3 pt shots they put on people are more responsible for their success, honestly. Dwight is tough to watch offensively and can really only finish in the paint, with no FT ability or ability to score outside.

rapswin98
01-20-2009, 06:33 PM
kobe and lebron will switch spots next time

ragee
01-20-2009, 07:05 PM
I think the clinic of 3 pt shots they put on people are more responsible for their success, honestly. Dwight is tough to watch offensively and can really only finish in the paint, with no FT ability or ability to score outside.

They are shooting a lot of 3s because of dwight... They are palying an inside out game... The defense and offense of the magic starts with dwight... They are scoring more and defending better because of him... His presence alone makes the magic so much better... Although is stats too are also superb...

MAC10TIZZY
01-20-2009, 07:14 PM
i agree with most of you, dwight should deffenately be higher. as much as i love the magic, i think as of RIGHT NOW we have only one super stars and that is dwight howard..i do in turn also believe that more than one of our players belongs on the all star team though....back to the question....dwight howard is hands down the best pick for M.V.P

ragee
01-20-2009, 07:15 PM
dwight isnt doing it all. he has turk rashard lewis, nelson and many other shooters around him

Well, Kobe and Lebron isn't doing it all either! Kobe has Pau, Bynum, Fisher, Odom, Ariza and some more role palyers...

Lebron has Verajao, MO, Big Bum, Pavlovic, Delonte and soon Z will be back...

It is not about just scoring... If Ariza is not with the Lakers, they woud have lost more games...

If the Cavs did not get MO, they won't still be a contender...

So please stop with the, Dwight has many shooters around him coz if he is not there, they would not shoot that much 3s! Like Dwight, all of the top 5 except Wade has a great support group...

MAC10TIZZY
01-20-2009, 07:18 PM
well put ragee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ragee
01-20-2009, 07:22 PM
I think the clinic of 3 pt shots they put on people are more responsible for their success, honestly. Dwight is tough to watch offensively and can really only finish in the paint, with no FT ability or ability to score outside.

So did Shaq! What do you expect, he is a center! And again, points per game is not the only criteria for an mvp... Yes he only scores in the paint and is not a good free throw shooter but he is stil averaging 20.2 ppg! And can anyone else score 20+ pts and grab 20+ rebs in a game? You guys are also forgetting that the Magic is playing good defense too... They can't win with just 3s!

still1ballin
01-20-2009, 07:23 PM
Dwight should be much higher, Orlando isn't a big market team so even though they have the best record the league, the media still doesn't acknowledges them. The same with Dwight.

cmstophe
01-20-2009, 07:29 PM
I'd put Lebron, Kobe, then Dwight.

ragee
01-20-2009, 09:30 PM
Dwight should be much higher, Orlando isn't a big market team so even though they have the best record the league, the media still doesn't acknowledges them. The same with Dwight.

Thank you...

ragee
01-20-2009, 09:32 PM
I'd put Lebron, Kobe, then Dwight.

Yeah... They are the top three... But if by any chance, the Magic pulls away from the pack, Dwight deserves it...

SportsNut4Ever
01-20-2009, 10:47 PM
if the bulls make the playoffs, i think derrick rose obviuosly deserves consideration. anyone agree?

JordansBulls
01-20-2009, 10:52 PM
if the bulls make the playoffs, i think derrick rose obviuosly deserves consideration. anyone agree?

No. He isn't even the leading scorer. Gordon is the leading scorer and has the most win shares for the team.

ragee
01-20-2009, 10:57 PM
if the bulls make the playoffs, i think derrick rose obviuosly deserves consideration. anyone agree?

Consideration, yes but actually winning it, no... The east is easy... Bring the Bulls on the 2nd or 3rd spot and it is a whole different story!

MAC10TIZZY
01-20-2009, 11:32 PM
Dwight should be much higher, Orlando isn't a big market team so even though they have the best record the league, the media still doesn't acknowledges them. The same with Dwight.

uhg i hate hearing this comment repeatedly(all though has been proven over the years)...orlando isn't a big market...were a dry pond.......blah blah blah...this market can only be determined by how much noise and support we bring to our home town team, so lets stand up magic fans and be HEARD!!!!!!! and p.s. somebody please kick the guy out who asked if we thought derrick rose could be mvp, how you gonna be mvp of the league when you arent even the best rookie.....we love you lee!!!!!!!

Chronz
01-21-2009, 05:29 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Kobe-says-LeBron-is-the-league-MVP-so-far?urn=nba,135268

Kobe says Bron is the MVP, I believe him

*Superman*
01-22-2009, 01:05 AM
So is this gonna turn into the Dwight Howard thread.:D

I am tired of the Magic not getting noticed, but as for now i think top four are

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Dwight
4. D-wade (team wise not doing to good)

saintdrew
01-22-2009, 01:13 AM
at least players like kobe and dwight howard have a decent supporting cast. hell, even d-wade has a good team around him.

if we are going by the most VALUABLE player in the LEAGUE. then you have to give it to either:
LeBron James or Chris "CP3" Paul.

my vote goes to cp3

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2009, 01:17 AM
at least players like kobe and dwight howard have a decent supporting cast. hell, even d-wade has a good team around him.
if we are going by the most VALUABLE player in the LEAGUE. then you have to give it to either:
LeBron James or Chris "CP3" Paul.

my vote goes to cp3

:confused::speechless::confused: You have to be joking. Wade is playing with talent but Lebron is not???? Epic fail

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2009, 01:18 AM
So is this gonna turn into the Dwight Howard thread.:D

I am tired of the Magic not getting noticed, but as for now i think top four are

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Dwight
4. D-wade (team wise not doing to good)

If the Magic get the best record in the league. D12 should win MVP and defensive player of the year. No joke

PRETTY BIRD!
01-22-2009, 02:14 AM
I think kobe bryant overtook that number #1 spot already....

Shaq back 2 L.A
01-22-2009, 02:41 AM
I think kobe bryant overtook that number #1 spot already....

not sure about that yet!!! this coming from kobe's number 1 fan!!! but if he keeps this up and keeps getting triple doubles then yes he will take the number 1 spot pretty soon!!!

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-22-2009, 03:16 AM
not sure about that yet!!! this coming from kobe's number 1 fan!!! but if he keeps this up and keeps getting triple doubles then yes he will take the number 1 spot pretty soon!!!

Triple doubles look nice, but in the Lakers case, it usually means they are not running the offense. Kobe has been running a lot pick and roll lately. That is why he has been getting a lot of assist. He has been padding his stats just like CP3, Lebron, and Nash due to this trickery of an offensive play.

In the short term, it will get Kobe huge assist numbers and one of our bigs, a great stat line, just like it has done for Gasol all year and Bynum tonight. But this offense really never translates into a championship. I would love for Kobe to have 5 assist and run the offense as they practice it. I don't care if everyone thinks he is a ball hog for not having huge assist numbers. He has shown that he could if he ran the same offense that the other stat padders do. But for the Lakers to win a ring, I would prefer that they ran the triangle offense a little more. It will turn into a ring, I know it.

Lakersfan2483
01-22-2009, 04:54 AM
Top MVP candidates right now are Lebron, Kobe, and D. Howard. Lebron is the favorite, but both Howard and Kobe are gaining ground on him.

Top 5 candidates

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. D. Howard
4. D. Wade
5. CP3

*D12 deserves to win the Defensive Player of the Year if he continues on to play the way he's been playing

kntresistheheat
01-22-2009, 12:32 PM
:speechless: Dude wade does not have the team that CP3 has, YOU must be jokeing right:confused:





at least players like kobe and dwight howard have a decent supporting cast. hell, even d-wade has a good team around him.
if we are going by the most VALUABLE player in the LEAGUE. then you have to give it to either:
LeBron James or Chris "CP3" Paul.

my vote goes to cp3

The Answer3
01-22-2009, 04:27 PM
If the Magic get the best record in the league. D12 should win MVP and defensive player of the year. No joke

He shouldn't win MVP but I can see DPOY.

Kenny
01-24-2009, 02:16 AM
Buzzer beater for Lebron tonight.. Just a filthy shot to end the game, cavs win by 1

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 02:17 AM
That buzzer beater by Lebron.

Freaking. FILTHY.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 02:31 AM
That buzzer beater by Lebron.

Freaking. FILTHY.

The previous 3 turnovers, 2 missed layups, terrible defense and all in the late fourth quarter stages. FILTHY. Literally.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 02:33 AM
^ BTW--You have to give that win to Mo Williams. The dude came up clutch when the other star player was choking. He was HUGE. Not to mention Boobie and Wallace. The Cavs should have lost, but they made all the big shots when they needed it.

still1ballin
01-24-2009, 02:48 AM
Against the "Warriors"

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 02:51 AM
Against the "Warriors"

LOL. That doesn't even matter to me. It's just amazing how these supposed "Cavs fans" give all this credit to James when he was the reason they were losing in the first place. Utterly amazing. These supposed "Cavs fans" would and should recognize that Williams, Boobie, and Wallace were the true heroes of the game so to speak.

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 03:06 AM
lol

I agree Lebron was part of the reason we were losing. But he just hit the game winner. it's over. He won the game. You're just a Lebron hater. Admit it.

"Supposed Cavs fans", yea, we're not "true" fans of our team because we just witnessed an amazing clutch game winning shot. Man, quit drinkin the haterade and give some props.

Yes, the bench play set us up for the win, and Mo Williams/Boobie Gibson hitting a pair of 3s late on helped win too. But LBJ hits the buzzer beater. He gets the glory.

For the record I would have had MO take the last shot so please just shut up, and that was with Williams having like his worst half of the year and overall a pretty rough game down the stretch.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 03:10 AM
lol

I agree Lebron was part of the reason we were losing. But he just hit the game winner. it's over. He won the game. You're just a Lebron hater. Admit it.

I'm a "Cavs fans who don't give enough credit to the rest of the Cavs team" hater. :p

BTW--I'm pretty sure poor officiating even allowed James the chance to win the game in the first place. Anyways, congrats to Williams, Boobie, and Wallace for making all the plays when the Cavs needed it most in the clutch because the game surely would have been over long before that play if it wasn't for them.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 03:13 AM
lol

I agree Lebron was part of the reason we were losing. But he just hit the game winner. it's over. He won the game. You're just a Lebron hater. Admit it.

"Supposed Cavs fans", yea, we're not "true" fans of our team because we just witnessed an amazing clutch game winning shot. Man, quit drinkin the haterade and give some props.

Yes, the bench play set us up for the win, and Mo Williams/Boobie Gibson hitting a pair of 3s late on helped win too. But LBJ hits the buzzer beater. He gets the glory.

For the record I would have had MO take the last shot so please just shut up, and that was with Williams having like his worst half of the year and overall a pretty rough game down the stretch.

I think a true Cavs fan would give the credit where credit is due: Williams, Wallace, and Gibson.

I totally disagree with that statement. I would be furious (as a coach) at James after tonight's performance. One shot doesn't excuse 6 to 7 plays of choking in a row. That almost became an utter joke the way he was playing. It seemed as if he was trying his hardest to lose, it was THAT bad.

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 03:16 AM
I think a true Cavs fan would give the credit where credit is due: Williams, Wallace, and Gibson.

I totally disagree with that statement. I would be furious (as a coach) at James after tonight's performance. One shot doesn't excuse 6 to 7 plays of choking in a row. That almost became an utter joke the way he was playing. It seemed as if he was trying his hardest to lose, it was THAT bad.

Dude, EVERY post you make is just ripping James to shreds. You need to just man up or step down. Tonight, he gets props from even his most biased and jealous haters.

Yes, people other than LeBron hit shots. Yes, I loved that clutch 3 from Mo, and Wallace's 20 footer, and Tarance Kinsey off the bench. In fact, the whole bench contributed a ton of points.

THIS IS ABOUT JAMES AND HIS GAME WINNER THOUGH.

You just hate him so freaking much though you'll do anything to divert attention. Sheesh. Like you really give two ***** about the Cavs' supporting cast. Your agenda is just to hate on James.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 03:22 AM
Dude, EVERY post you make is just ripping James to shreds. You need to just man up or step down. Tonight, he gets props from even his most biased and jealous haters.

Yes, people other than LeBron hit shots. Yes, I loved that clutch 3 from Mo, and Wallace's 20 footer, and Tarance Kinsey off the bench. In fact, the whole bench contributed a ton of points.

THIS IS ABOUT JAMES AND HIS GAME WINNER THOUGH.

You just hate him so freaking much though you'll do anything to divert attention. Sheesh. Like you really give two ***** about the Cavs' supporting cast. Your agenda is just to hate on James.

No. I make much much more posts about other players than Lebron. You just notice the posts about Lebron because he is your favorite team..err...player.

Where did he get props from haters or anybody? If anybody gives him props for his performance then they didn't watch the game.

This is about the Cavs barely escaping an awful team with the Cavs supposed nobodies making all the plays late in the game.

I don't "hate him so freaking much." I call it how it is. He HAD 3 turnovers late. He MISSED shot after shot after shot. He played ATROCIOUS defense late (he is supposedly DPOY, right?). I am calling it how it is. I could care less about the GW when the same guy who made this GW played an epically bad performance throughout. As a coach, I would not excuse my player and I don't give James any special treatment. I view his play the same way I would view my own players games. I comment accordingly. The guy played awful and he shouldn't be excused because he hit a single basket.

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 03:28 AM
No. I make much much more posts about other players than Lebron. You just notice the posts about Lebron because he is your favorite team..err...player.

Where did he get props from haters or anybody? If anybody gives him props for his performance then they didn't watch the game.

This is about the Cavs barely escaping an awful team with the Cavs supposed nobodies making all the plays late in the game.

I don't "hate him so freaking much." I call it how it is. He HAD 3 turnovers late. He MISSED shot after shot after shot. He played ATROCIOUS defense late (he is supposedly DPOY, right?). I am calling it how it is. I could care less about the GW when the same guy who made this GW played an epically bad performance throughout. As a coach, I would not excuse my player and I don't give James any special treatment. I view his play the same way I would view my own players games. I comment accordingly. The guy played awful and he shouldn't be excused because he hit a single basket.

he almost had a triple double, and without him the cavs lose. dont need to even say anything else.

btw gsw beat boston.can we stop acting like the team they played matters? this is the nba.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 03:30 AM
he almost had a triple double, and without him the cavs lose. dont need to even say anything else.

Did you even watch the game?!?!?!?

EddieB
01-24-2009, 03:33 AM
I think Mr 81 points should win it again

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 03:36 AM
Did you even watch the game?!?!?!?

LMAO YES

did you????

did you miss the BUZZER BEATER? or his near triple double? without lebron the Cavs do...not...win...

I dont care if you saw him turn the ball over or miss layups where he was hammered with no call, they won the freakin game because he nailed an ice cold shot!

you are unbelievable. you will never agree with me but you are so wrong it is ridiculous. go ahead and give Boobie freakin Gibson who is fkin awful and got destroyed on defense (but he nailed a 3 so he was AMAAAAAZING TONIGHT AND IS THE HERO!) all the glory tonight...sheesh I already even said Mo Williams 3 was huge.

But it wasnt a GAME WINNER. People love game winners. Game winners make highlights. People talk about game winners. Just shut up, go prowl some more lebron james footage from the past for you to pick apart and send him a little letter on how to be a better NBA player.

GoatMilk
01-24-2009, 03:50 AM
you know who needs some MVP love?
Chauncey Billups

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 03:57 AM
you know who needs some MVP love?
Chauncey Billups

True. I definitely agree. He has changed the culture for the Nuggets entirely. Not to mention that the Pistons are floundering without him. That shows how Valuable of a Player he is.

GoatMilk
01-24-2009, 04:00 AM
True. I definitely agree. He has changed the culture for the Nuggets entirely. Not to mention that the Pistons are floundering without him. That shows how Valuable of a Player he is.

wow. thats exactly my position
he's top 3 IMO

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 04:03 AM
It's tough to rank MVPs because everyone has a different definition. I guarantee Chauncey barely cracks most peoples' Top 10, yet he certainly fits the mold for MVP in my opinion. But he would never win it, nor should he.

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 04:05 AM
It's tough to rank MVPs because everyone has a different definition. I guarantee Chauncey barely cracks most peoples' Top 10, yet he certainly fits the mold for MVP in my opinion. But he would never win it, nor should he.

Chauncey doesn't have that star power. He shouldn't win it, but he deserves some type of attention for the award. He definitely deserves some mention for the work he has done with the Nuggets. They have improved defensively and their offense is still great. Not to mention that the Pistons are struggling without him. He is definitely a very Valuable Player.

cmstophe
01-24-2009, 04:10 AM
The Pistons would be irrelevent this season with or without Billups. That said, I love me some Chauncey

ARMIN12NBA
01-24-2009, 04:25 AM
The Pistons would be irrelevent this season with or without Billups. That said, I love me some Chauncey

They were 4-0 with Chauncey and they were looking pretty good. I don't think they would be Cavs/Celtics/Magic good, but they would be that 4th team. Right now, they are the 6th team or lower in the East.

Who doesn't love them some Chauncey? :dance:

still1ballin
01-24-2009, 05:31 PM
I bet Pistons are kicking themselves in the *** right about now.

Joshtd1
01-24-2009, 05:49 PM
Still no love for Duncan? Has the team 2nd in the Western Confrence, after the Spurs suffered early injuries to their 2nd and 3rd best players..?

No Im not saying he should win it, but I just never see anyone mention him.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-24-2009, 06:08 PM
Hey, you know who should be mentioned that has not been mentioned before, Tim Duncan. ;)

Chronz
01-24-2009, 06:14 PM
Just a thought did anyone think Duncan deserved the MVP the year Nash first won it?

zsiddiqui23
01-24-2009, 06:48 PM
Kobe Bryant = MVP

NYMetros
01-24-2009, 07:14 PM
I bet Pistons are kicking themselves in the *** right about now.

I still think that Dumars made the move mainly for the cap space AI opens up after this year. It's a lot of money coming off the books.

camador22
01-25-2009, 12:09 AM
My top 10 updated list

1. Lebron
2. Howard
3. Kobe
4. Wade
5. CP3
6. Duncan
7. Billups
8. Roy
9. Dirk
10. J.J

JayW_1023
01-25-2009, 06:22 AM
Just a thought did anyone think Duncan deserved the MVP the year Nash first won it?

No...Nash deserved it that year. It takes a great player to make it work in a great system and Nash has transformed that team.

I don't think Duncan will ever win a regular season award again...nowadays the Spurs are more geared up towards the postseason.

HOZ THE KNICK
01-25-2009, 08:40 AM
lebron is still the front runner haven't nothing changed.

PRETTY BIRD!
01-26-2009, 12:22 AM
lebron is still the front runner haven't nothing changed.

Yeah..the front runner for most overhyped!......




The real list in my opinion goes like this.......
1.Kobe
2.Howard
3.Lebron
4.Garnett
5.Duncan
6.Gasol
7.Billups

Thats if you truly know the meaning of mvp....

cmstophe
01-26-2009, 11:32 AM
Yeah..the front runner for most overhyped!......




The real list in my opinion goes like this.......
1.Kobe
2.Howard
3.Lebron
4.Garnett
5.Duncan
6.Gasol
7.Billups

Thats if you truly know the meaning of mvp....

No.

Howard over James? No, just....no.

Zefflin
01-26-2009, 11:55 AM
The real list in my opinion goes like this.......
1.Kobe
2.Howard
3.Lebron
4.Garnett
5.Duncan
6.Gasol
7.Billups

Thats if you truly know the meaning of mvp....

Haha, yeah you make sense...

My updated list...

1. Lebron (it was KB until Lebron hit his first buzzer beating jumper)
2. KB
3. Howard
4. CP3
5. Wade

HM: Timmy D

JordansBulls
01-26-2009, 01:04 PM
Yeah..the front runner for most overhyped!......




The real list in my opinion goes like this.......
1.Kobe
2.Howard
3.Lebron
4.Garnett
5.Duncan
6.Gasol
7.Billups

Thats if you truly know the meaning of mvp....

Kobe and Gasol are tied in Win Shares for the Lakers right now at 6.9. Lebron has 10.1 Win Shares at the moment and the next closest on his team is 4.5 win shares.
Dwight Howard has 7.4 Win Shares and Lewis is next with 6.1 Win Shares.
Chris Paul has 9.1 Win Shares and West has 3.5 Win Shares.

So obviously those guys are having a bigger impact on their team winning.

adnumber11
01-26-2009, 01:44 PM
wow it seems like you guys dont know the meaning of MVP. both lebron and kobe's teams are doing very well this year. both the lakers and the cavs have the best roster depth of any team in the NBA. they prob wouldnt be this good if it werent for them but nontheless neither of them is the MVP, dwayne wade is!! considering how bad their team was last year (only 15 wins) all becuase he was injured for most of year. now healthy the heat are a contender and are back in playoff contention (23-17 record so far). he does everything and makes his team-mates better just like kobe and lebron which is why he has a ring and a NBA finals MVP.

bluefire7002
01-26-2009, 02:01 PM
bottom line the NBA always picks the MVP by choosing the best player out of the best team in the league.. so if the cavs have a better record it will be lebron, if lakers have a better record it will be Kobe

the only reason last year no one from Celtics won it was because there was no clear better player.. so it went to the 2nd best team.

mfb_lt1birdman
01-26-2009, 02:06 PM
If Wade is the MVP this year then you have to go back in time and give it to Kobe in 05 and 06, and give it to Lebron last year and etc. I see your arguement but Wade is not and will not be the MVP.

FACT-The best statistical guy does not get the MVP unless he is on a top team.

J-Relo
01-26-2009, 03:39 PM
If Wade is the MVP this year then you have to go back in time and give it to Kobe in 05 and 06, and give it to Lebron last year and etc. I see your arguement but Wade is not and will not be the MVP.

FACT-The best statistical guy does not get the MVP unless he is on a top team.

on one of the top teams ;)

first is Lebron, then goes Kobe with his team, Dwight is in the third, Paul and Wade (just cause of W%) share the foruth and fifth places...

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-26-2009, 11:05 PM
Kobe and Gasol are tied in Win Shares for the Lakers right now at 6.9. Lebron has 10.1 Win Shares at the moment and the next closest on his team is 4.5 win shares.
Dwight Howard has 7.4 Win Shares and Lewis is next with 6.1 Win Shares.
Chris Paul has 9.1 Win Shares and West has 3.5 Win Shares.

So obviously those guys are having a bigger impact on their team winning.

What does that tell me? It tells me something I and everybody already knows. The Cavs give the ball to Lebron to initiate the offense and be responsible for the bucket either by making it or for the assist. Same with Chris Paul.

It also says Kobe is playing in the offense as it is designed. He is passing it into the post to Pau to initiate the offense. He wont get an assist or a basket for it but the attention he draws allows Pau to go one on one. Pau gets so many open jump shots it should be illegal. Kobe wont get the credit for your Win Share but he is the reason why we are winning.

Does this mean Lebron is more valuable to the Cavs than Kobe is to the Lakers? Absolutely not. It says they run different offenses and Lebron instead of guarding the best perimeter scorer, he will bump up his defensive win shares by getting steals or blocks on the weak side. Kobe will not get as many steals guarding the opponents best player. And it is likely that he is going to allow more points per 100 possessions guarding premiere players as opposed to the opponents weaker perimeter player allowing him to roam. So I think your defensive rating is going to be a little lower when you guard the Dwayne Wades, Lebron James', Michael Redd's', Vince Carter' TMacs of the world, As to the left overs Lebron will cover.

camador22
01-26-2009, 11:21 PM
In all honesty, even though Laker fans won't admit Lebron is wayyyyy more valuable to his team then Kobe. You remove Kobe from the Lakers and they're still a top 3 team in the west. If you remove Lebron from the Cavs they're lucky if they're a .500 team. If you remove Wade from the Heat they would be lucky to have 5 wins by now. Wade's the best player in the league however we all no he can't win it unless the Heat are a championship contending team. As of right now if 1000 votes went out to non-fans, 1000 votes would go to Lebron. He is far and away the clear MVP this year. Sory Laker fans but I see Kobe having no chance to win it again. I think Gasol is just as valuable as Kobe this year.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-26-2009, 11:39 PM
In all honesty, even though Laker fans won't admit Lebron is wayyyyy more valuable to his team then Kobe. You remove Kobe from the Lakers and they're still a top 3 team in the west. If you remove Lebron from the Cavs they're lucky if they're a .500 team. If you remove Wade from the Heat they would be lucky to have 5 wins by now. Wade's the best player in the league however we all no he can't win it unless the Heat are a championship contending team. As of right now if 1000 votes went out to non-fans, 1000 votes would go to Lebron. He is far and away the clear MVP this year. Sory Laker fans but I see Kobe having no chance to win it again. I think Gasol is just as valuable as Kobe this year.

In all honesty, I dont care if he wins it this year. He won it once and what did that get him that he could not buy? Nothing. I would rather him not use the regular season to pad his stats and get his team ready to be able to play at a high level playoff time.

The reason I do come in here is to reject the non sense that a lot of people like to spew out. Like the horrendous statement you made saying the Lakers would be a top 3 team in the west without Kobe. A team starting a 34 year old point guard, Luke Walton, and a 21 year old center off knee surgery would not be at the top of the West. Pau had a better team in Memphis than that. And what did that get him? Lebrons team is almost identical in talent to Kobe's without the low post option like Gasol. Although Big Z is nothing to sneeze at. Lebron has the better point guard, and Delonte West is better than Walton. Big Z is the more experienced and smarter player than Bynum. The only advantage Kobe has is a big man who can score. The benches are almost identical with Farmar and Gibson being the same player, Vujacic and Wally set up for threes but dont do much else. Ariza is better than Pavlovic. And Odom is good on offense while Varejao is good at defense and hustle. Lebron has the better overall talent in the starting lineup and Kobe has a better offensive team off the bench while Lebron has a better defensive team off the bench.

The Cavs wins have a lot to do with their defense. And Lebron is not responsible for that. He may have picked up his D this year but the Cavs have been playing good D for a long time now. He just caught up with the program.

The Lakers may have a better offense, but the Cavs have a better defense. The players around Kobe and Lebron are very comparable in ALL-AROUND basketball talent which includes offensive and defensive skill.

superkegger
01-26-2009, 11:42 PM
For the record I think LeBron is the MVP.

But I often hear this idea about the best team in the league, that the reigning champ is the best until they're knocked off. It's somewhat the same theory that won nash him 2nd MVP. Kobe is doing exactly what he did last year, if not better, so why would he not win it again?

Now I know the answer you're going to give, and it's that LeBron is doing his thing better, and on an elite team. But the same thing could be said about LeBron in 05-06 when Nash won his 2nd MVP. He was 31 7 and 6.6 that year, 50-32, only 4 less wins than Nash's suns...So, idk, that's the part that gives me trouble as to why it shouldn't be kobe.

Vinny642
01-26-2009, 11:59 PM
(cough) CP3 (cough)

oshea225
01-27-2009, 12:02 AM
(cough) CP3 (cough)

pshhh 27 points 15 assists 10 rebounds 7 steals? come on i could do that in an nba game!

D Roses Bulls
01-27-2009, 12:19 AM
I was reading the power rankings earlier and Marc Stein had said that if the Heat win 50 games the MVP might not be a lock for Lebron James. So that made me wonder with that said, if the heat accomplish that or real close to it when no one thought the team had no more of a shot as either an 8th seed or lottery team, should Wade be the favorite to win the MVP with the kind of numbers he is putting up and how is team is doing because of him?

still1ballin
01-27-2009, 12:21 AM
Depends on the seeding.

what54!?
01-27-2009, 12:23 AM
If the heat can get to a top 3 seed wade deserves a lot looking into.

D Roses Bulls
01-27-2009, 12:23 AM
Depends on the seeding.

well 50 games or closer should net you a 4th seed especially in the east where boston, cavs, and magic are probably going to win their division, so lets just say the fourth right now and remember what kind of team he has around him, so dont forget ot take that into consideration.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-27-2009, 12:28 AM
if they get 50, cavs will get in the 60.

and they doing the same thing on the court anyways but lebron ussually increases his stats near the end of the season

KobeIs
01-27-2009, 12:30 AM
I don't know about the voters for the MVP but I'd put him up there.

Chronz
01-27-2009, 12:32 AM
No because as good as Wade has been individually LeBron has been even better the fact that his team is better make this a no brainer.

Big Zo
01-27-2009, 12:34 AM
The media wants to give it to LeBron no matter what this year, so forget about it.

hotpotato1092
01-27-2009, 12:36 AM
First of all, I don't think LeBron's a lock for the MVP, but I'll get to that later. Wade's biggest argument is stats, but you can't put his stats next to LeBron's because LeBron sits out the fourth quarter almost every night because the Cavs are blowing everyone out. If they played equal minutes LeBron would average something like 30 points, 8 rebounds and 8 assists. That's unheard of. Wade couldn't match that statistically, let alone the difference in records (the Cavs are gonna win around 65). But anyway onto why LeBron isn't necesarily a lock. Kobe Bryant has a history of increasing his stats down the stretch. He's averaging 26.3 ppg now but given his history I'd say he'll finish with around 28 ppg. Kobe's also averaging 5.5 boards and 5 assists, not at LeBron's level but still pretty good. But what if the Lakers win 68 games and have the 1st seed in a LOADED western conference and the Cavs win 61 games and get the 3rd seed in a top heavy but lacking in depth eastern conference. If that's the case I think Kobe would have to win the MVP but either way it should be close. Right now it's definitely LeBron's to lose but you never know what will happen.

mjt20mik
01-27-2009, 12:38 AM
Depends on how well the Cavs do. If the Heat win 50, Spolstra will win COY.

D Roses Bulls
01-27-2009, 12:38 AM
The media wants to give it to LeBron no matter what this year, so forget about it.

i just dont see how the media cant look at lebrons team and look at wades team and just go WHOA! i mean with the fact that wade really has not had no help and especially since marion has been injured most of the year or hasnt performed. i dont get it

superkegger
01-27-2009, 12:40 AM
pshhh 27 points 15 assists 10 rebounds 7 steals? come on i could do that in an wnba dleague game!

fixed.

Big Zo
01-27-2009, 12:41 AM
i just dont see how the media cant look at lebrons team and look at wades team and just go WHOA! i mean with the fact that wade really has not had no help and especially since marion has been injured most of the year or hasnt performed. i dont get it

Neither do I. I guess it's just LeBron's "turn" just like it was Kobe's turn last year.

Master Mind
01-27-2009, 12:47 AM
In order for the NBA to create the second coming of Jordan then Lebron has to win despite the fact that D-Wade is playing balls to the wall--The NBA conspire things like this to gain more popularity...It's all politics people...

With that being said D-Wade should get it...

superkegger
01-27-2009, 12:52 AM
In order for the NBA to create the second coming of Jordan then Lebron has to win despite the fact that D-Wade is playing balls to the wall--The NBA conspire things like this to gain more popularity...It's all politics people...

With that being said D-Wade should get it...

Yeah, the NBA would be so mad if Wade won the MVP. Probably amont the top 5 most recognizable NBA players, a Finals MVP, an Olympic champion, yeah, the NBA just is trying to screw him. That's why he got what some people would call favorable calls in the 06 finals, and Bron didn't the next year. Or that LeBron when he won 50 games in 05-06 with basically 32, 7 and 7 didn't win the MVP over a very undeserving steve nash. No, You're right, it's all one big mother****ing conspiracy against Wade.

camador22
01-27-2009, 12:52 AM
In all honesty, I dont care if he wins it this year. He won it once and what did that get him that he could not buy? Nothing. I would rather him not use the regular season to pad his stats and get his team ready to be able to play at a high level playoff time.

The reason I do come in here is to reject the non sense that a lot of people like to spew out. Like the horrendous statement you made saying the Lakers would be a top 3 team in the west without Kobe. A team starting a 34 year old point guard, Luke Walton, and a 21 year old center off knee surgery would not be at the top of the West. Pau had a better team in Memphis than that. And what did that get him? Lebrons team is almost identical in talent to Kobe's without the low post option like Gasol. Although Big Z is nothing to sneeze at. Lebron has the better point guard, and Delonte West is better than Walton. Big Z is the more experienced and smarter player than Bynum. The only advantage Kobe has is a big man who can score. The benches are almost identical with Farmar and Gibson being the same player, Vujacic and Wally set up for threes but dont do much else. Ariza is better than Pavlovic. And Odom is good on offense while Varejao is good at defense and hustle. Lebron has the better overall talent in the starting lineup and Kobe has a better offensive team off the bench while Lebron has a better defensive team off the bench.

The Cavs wins have a lot to do with their defense. And Lebron is not responsible for that. He may have picked up his D this year but the Cavs have been playing good D for a long time now. He just caught up with the program.

The Lakers may have a better offense, but the Cavs have a better defense. The players around Kobe and Lebron are very comparable in ALL-AROUND basketball talent which includes offensive and defensive skill.

In 05 and 06 Pau had a worse team then Kobe and lead them to better records on both years then the Lakers. Pau was injured the last couple years but as you could see now Pau being healthy is just as effective at winning games as Kobe. Im sory but you have to be extremely ignorant if you think Lebron has the quality of teamates that Kobe has. The Lakers have the best front line in the league by far and the deepest bench by far.

YankeeFan89
01-27-2009, 01:00 AM
Lebron james give him defensive player of the year too!

LayZbone
01-27-2009, 01:01 AM
Yeah, the NBA would be so mad if Wade won the MVP. Probably amont the top 5 most recognizable NBA players, a Finals MVP, an Olympic champion, yeah, the NBA just is trying to screw him. That's why he got what some people would call favorable calls in the 06 finals, and Bron didn't the next year. Or that LeBron when he won 50 games in 05-06 with basically 32, 7 and 7 didn't win the MVP over a very undeserving steve nash. No, You're right, it's all one big mother****ing conspiracy against Wade.

lol sarcasm ftw.

Lebron will get it. I hope the heat win 50 so it becomes a race.

jskeet23
01-27-2009, 01:15 AM
i see no one in the nba or here shows wade respect if wade make the playoffs lebron dont want to see him and if the lakers make the finals kobe dont want none eitheir thats real talk and i pray the cavs are in first place and the heat gets that last spot becacause if wade gets 50 wins he is the real mvp kobe has no finals mvp and lebron dont so we know what wades all about

jskeet23
01-27-2009, 01:18 AM
Lebron james give him defensive player of the year too!
ha ha you crazy 6,8 dont have more blocks then wade or steals you crazy

still1ballin
01-27-2009, 01:18 AM
i see no one in the nba or here shows wade respect if wade make the playoffs lebron dont want to see him and if the lakers make the finals kobe dont want none eitheir thats real talk and i pray the cavs are in first place and the heat gets that last spot becacause if wade gets 50 wins he is the real mvp kobe has no finals mvp and lebron dont so we know what wades all about

So just because Wade has a finals MVP, that automatically makes him better then Kobe and LeBron?

jskeet23
01-27-2009, 01:23 AM
So just because Wade has a finals MVP, that automatically makes him better then Kobe and LeBron?
no but wade is playing wit noone watch only time will tell he can stop lebron from getting a ring

still1ballin
01-27-2009, 01:26 AM
no but wade is playing wit noone watch only time will tell he can stop lebron from getting a ring

So? Kobe did the same thing a couple years back with a worse team Wade has now in a TOUGH western conference.

IRUAM #21
01-27-2009, 01:30 AM
So? Kobe did the same thing a couple years back with a worse team Wade has now in a TOUGH western conference.

That's why i think Wade probably wont win MVP :( Kobe did the same thing a couple years back and didnt win it.

still1ballin
01-27-2009, 01:32 AM
That's why i think Wade probably wont win MVP :( Kobe did the same thing a couple years back and didnt win it.

Exactly, they gave it to Nash who led his team to like #1 in the West or something with like 55+ wins? I don't remember the exact numbers, but if Kobe did win it that year, then hands down Wade would win it this year.

jskeet23
01-27-2009, 01:34 AM
So? Kobe did the same thing a couple years back with a worse team Wade has now in a TOUGH western conference. man you crazy as hell we are the second youngest team in the nba please i bet you this laker boy we will make it out the firts round we beat yall kobe was on lock you big man came through because we have a center whose 6,9 yall have no defense so shows how great of team yall are wit 3 7,0 footers and the west is very weak no defense
rewatch both games your boy turned the boy over in the last seconds of the game

superkegger
01-27-2009, 01:36 AM
Exactly, they gave it to Nash who led his team to like #1 in the West or something with like 55+ wins? I don't remember the exact numbers, but if Kobe did win it that year, then hands down Wade would win it this year.

Nash's 2nd mvp win was a complete and utter joke. Kobe didn't have the team around him to win it, but lebron did. 3rd in the east, which was equal to the suns standing in the west, 3rd. Suns had 54 wins, cavs 50. Lebron was 31.6, 7 and 6.6 on a 50 win team and didn't win the MVP. If that doesn't win the MVP, wade has absolutely no ****ing chance.

still1ballin
01-27-2009, 01:38 AM
man you crazy as hell we are the second youngest team in the nba please i bet you this laker boy we will make it out the firts round we beat yall kobe was on lock you big man came through because we have a center whose 6,9 yall have no defense so shows how great of team yall are wit 3 7,0 footers and the west is very weak no defense
rewatch both games your boy turned the boy over in the last seconds of the game

It's really hard to read what you are saying, so until you use some punctuation in your posts, I won't reply back to your posts because so make no sense. My dog can make more sense then that.

COBY KARL
01-27-2009, 01:49 AM
man you crazy as hell we are the second youngest team in the nba please i bet you this laker boy we will make it out the firts round we beat yall kobe was on lock you big man came through because we have a center whose 6,9 yall have no defense so shows how great of team yall are wit 3 7,0 footers and the west is very weak no defense
rewatch both games your boy turned the boy over in the last seconds of the game

jskeet23, just because the lakers are constantly criticized for their defense does not mean their defense is at the low end of the league
the lakers may give up more points to their opponents but the heat dont average more points than theirs
and yes we do have a great team with 7 footers, thats why we're 35-8 u idiot
Dwade this year is the kobe of the post shaq era...so no he will not win MVP

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-27-2009, 03:24 AM
In 05 and 06 Pau had a worse team then Kobe and lead them to better records on both years then the Lakers. Pau was injured the last couple years but as you could see now Pau being healthy is just as effective at winning games as Kobe. Im sory but you have to be extremely ignorant if you think Lebron has the quality of teamates that Kobe has. The Lakers have the best front line in the league by far and the deepest bench by far.

Pau had a worse team than Kobe?? You better do a fact check before you post garbage. You do know Pau was playing with a very deep team including Mike Miller, Shane Battier, Bonzi Wells, Jason Williams, James Posey, Earl Watson, Lorenzen Wright, Eddie Jones, Damon Stoudamire, Hakeem Warrick, and Bobby Jackson right?

The year of 05, Kobe missed the last 16 games of the season, the Lakes lost 14 of them. That year he was playing with Lamar and Caron Butler and nobody else. Lamar sprained his shoulder and missed 18 games. They were in the sixth seed when both players got hurt. That team had Chris Mihm and Chucky Atkins starting, with the worst bench in the league with the main players being Jumaine Jones, Brian Cook, Tierre Brown, Slave Medvedenko, and Brian Grant. And this was the good team!

The following year they put out this monstrosity. Starting Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Lamar Odom, Kobe and Smush Parker. A far worst team than Wade is playing with right now. Main bench players were Chris Mihm, Sasha Vujacic, Luke Walton, and Deaven George. That year Kobe averaged 35 5 and 5 and got that team to win 45 games in the stacked west.

There is no way in hell you can tell me that Kobe had the better team than Pau.

And tell me, what makes you think the Lakers talent is so much more than Lebrons? Is Lebron playing with the 25th worst starting point guard in the league? Is he playing with the 30th worst starting small forward in the league? Is he playing with a 21 year old kid coming of knee surgery? The bench is pretty identical. Where is Kobe's advantage talent wise?

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-27-2009, 03:27 AM
man you crazy as hell we are the second youngest team in the nba please i bet you this laker boy we will make it out the firts round we beat yall kobe was on lock you big man came through because we have a center whose 6,9 yall have no defense so shows how great of team yall are wit 3 7,0 footers and the west is very weak no defense
rewatch both games your boy turned the boy over in the last seconds of the game

Is this English? I feel dumber for having read that abomination of a post. Hooked on Phonics worked for me!!!!

JayW_1023
01-27-2009, 07:31 AM
LeBron is playing impressively even with two important players out. Right now it's hard to argue between him and Kobe. It's neck on neck.

LeBron just carries a heavier load these days so he gets the slight nod. But Kobe is playing injured and seems like he is hardly missing a beat. Tough call really.

Bishnoff
01-27-2009, 07:55 AM
So far, I'd have to say LeBron. Kobe is having another brilliant season and the Lakers' record is second to none (just), but what LBJ is doing in Cleveland is more worthy of the MVP. In short, LeBron is more valuable to the Cavs than Kobe is to the Lakers - and that's fundamentally what the award is about.

citizenc78
01-27-2009, 08:14 AM
1. Lebron
2. Dwight
3. Dwayne
4. CP3
5. Kobe
6. Roy
7. Duncan
8. Billups
9. Yao
10. Dirk

HOZ THE KNICK
01-27-2009, 08:35 AM
lebron and dwight is a battle to the finish...it's coming out of the east.

Brooke
01-27-2009, 09:05 AM
they wont be a top 3 team w/out Kobe that statement is ridiculous.

7th or 8th seed maybe but a 3rd seed? nope

DreamShaker
01-27-2009, 03:31 PM
they wont be a top 3 team w/out Kobe that statement is ridiculous.

7th or 8th seed maybe but a 3rd seed? nope

They would be like av 4 or 5 seed without Kobe....

JordansBulls
01-27-2009, 03:37 PM
Lebron is MVP more so than Wade and so is CP3 if we are just looking at stats.

Lebron is 1st in Efficiency Rating while CP3 is 2nd and both of them have over a 30+ PER this year.

kntresistheheat
01-27-2009, 04:15 PM
With all do respect, and I mean all do respect! What is it with you and this efficiency rating and this per crap:confused::rolleyes:



Lebron is MVP more so than Wade and so is CP3 if we are just looking at stats.

Lebron is 1st in Efficiency Rating while CP3 is 2nd and both of them have over a 30+ PER this year.

Jonathan2323
01-27-2009, 05:09 PM
LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul and Dwight Howard seem to be getting most of the love for this season's Most Valuable Player, but in this writer's mind no player has done more for his team than Dwyane Wade. With him they are challenging for home court, without him they would be in the lottery. Throw in the dominating stats – especially the blocks for a shooting guard! – and Wade would have this writer's vote.

hoopsworld

Mikeflight
01-27-2009, 05:40 PM
no love for the ex New Mexico Lobo Danny Granger his numbers are insane PPG Reb Asst FG Min
26.1 5.1 3.4 .443 37.1

IRUAM #21
01-27-2009, 05:44 PM
no love for the ex New Mexico Lobo Danny Granger his numbers are insane PPG Reb Asst FG Min
26.1 5.1 3.4 .443 37.1

His team is no good.

Mikeflight
01-27-2009, 06:01 PM
His team is no good.

I know there team has only won 17 games half of those games have been won on the shooting sleeve of number 33 when down with 10 or less sec. by no force of the imagination am I saying he is up there with LBJ,KB24,or CP3 I know he shouldn't be behind Dirk Nowitzki. lol

The Prodigy
01-27-2009, 06:01 PM
Right now lebron is mvp, but if the heat get up to 48 wins this season Wade deserves mvp. He is playing with a mediocre team (and turned it around from nothing) with no true center (barely a fake center, but maglore has been playing well) and an off and on point guard (much praise still mario) and a second option player that avg 10 points and has been injured now and then. The only thing that in my mind that should stop wade from winning if the heat get 48 wins is if the cavs get 60+ wins.

Brooke
01-28-2009, 02:48 AM
and my point was proven tonight. The Lakers looked lost when Kobe fouled out, shows how valuable he is

Torque
01-28-2009, 02:55 AM
and my point was proven tonight. The Lakers looked lost when Kobe fouled out, shows how valuable he is

Yeah, your right, we would've won this game if Kobe were to be playing.

ARMIN12NBA
01-28-2009, 03:54 AM
They would be like av 4 or 5 seed without Kobe....

Lakers had a 6 point lead with Kobe Bryant in the game during OT. He then got fouled out of the game. The Lakers would proceed to lose by 7 in the second OT. Not only that, but they were completely lost on offense and the Bobcats killed the Lakers offensively.

I'm not even sure if the Lakers would make the playoffs without him. He drives the offense and defense. This is almost becoming a problem because they are so reliant on him to do everything on the court. The second he fouled out, the entire team almost conceded a lost even though the Lakers were winning with a mere 2-3 minutes left.

Lakersfan2483
01-28-2009, 04:08 AM
Lakers had a 6 point lead with Kobe Bryant in the game during OT. He then got fouled out of the game. The Lakers would proceed to lose by 7 in the second OT. Not only that, but they were completely lost on offense and the Bobcats killed the Lakers offensively.

I'm not even sure if the Lakers would make the playoffs without him. He drives the offense and defense. This is almost becoming a problem because they are so reliant on him to do everything on the court. The second he fouled out, the entire team almost conceded a lost even though the Lakers were winning with a mere 2-3 minutes left.

Agreed, Kobe proved his importance and value to the team tonight against Charlotte, when he fouled out the Lakers completely fell apart. Gasol, who is our 2nd option, was on the bench for most of the 2nd overtime and he "struggled" mightily without Kobe out there. In fact, his play was so poorest without Kobe, that he was on the bench during most of the 1st and 2nd overtime sessions. Kobe is the "engine" for this team and there is a reason he was the "MVP" last year and is the best player and closer in the game. Like I said, when he "fouled" out, the team fell apart!! They would not make the playoffs with out Kobe, I think they would win about 41 games without him.....

Lakersfan2483
01-28-2009, 04:13 AM
They would be like av 4 or 5 seed without Kobe....

I don't think they would finish anywhere near that level. Let's examine the teams LA would "not" be better then without Kobe....

San Antonio
New Orleans
Houston
Phoenix
Dallas
Portland
Denver
Utah

*LA would struggle to make it as an "eight" seed without Kobe and most likely would not make the playoffs, they aren't better then any of those teams above without Kobe Bryant.

Matt-the-great
01-28-2009, 05:32 AM
i just had to come in here and talk about Chris Paul....i think this guy is so sensational...the next Kobe

i mean i have seen him come 3 steals short of a QUADRUPLE DOUBLE on 2 occasions!!!!

a guy who can put up 30 pts, 15 ast, 10 reb, and 7 stl is godlike.

and i think he has a tonne of Triple-doubles and Double-doubles...


anyway, i am sure he has been talked about in here before, but i just had to write this down.

still1ballin
01-28-2009, 12:06 PM
I guess last nights game against the Bobcats answered some posters questions. Without Kobe we wouldn't be a top 3 team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 08:57 PM
I guess last nights game against the Bobcats answered some posters questions. Without Kobe we wouldn't be a top 3 team.

I have been saying it from the beginning. People are severely over rating the Lakers talent around Kobe. The team looks talented because they are built around Kobe.

It does not matter that we have a point guard who cant guard anyone or hit a lay up if his daughters life depended on it. Kobe guards the best perimeter players and creates open 3 point shots for Fish so that he does not have to be able to create off the dribble. (Question. Who else in the league has a point guard who cant create his own shot?)

It doesn't matter that a slow, un athletic, dumb, small forward who cant shoot or guard anyone is in the starting lineup. Kobe makes up for all his deficiencies. Not to mention the fact that he is probably the worst person in the league to have on the court in crunch time. He is a walking turnover when the game is tight.

We all seen them get man handled by the Bobcats as soon as Kobe stepped off the floor. Why is that? Because we dont have another player who can create his own shot or a shot for a teammate. We dumped the ball into Pau and he finally had to be the main player the defense was focusing on. He turned into a little girl and gave it up like he was a virgin on prom night.

This team would not win 35 games without Kobe. And that is a fact.

Lakersfan2483
01-28-2009, 09:18 PM
I have been saying it from the beginning. People are severely over rating the Lakers talent around Kobe. The team looks talented because they are built around Kobe.

It does not matter that we have a point guard who cant guard anyone or hit a lay up if his daughters life depended on it. Kobe guards the best perimeter players and creates open 3 point shots for Fish so that he does not have to be able to create off the dribble. (Question. Who else in the league has a point guard who cant create his own shot?)

It doesn't matter that a slow, un athletic, dumb, small forward who cant shoot or guard anyone is in the starting lineup. Kobe makes up for all his deficiencies. Not to mention the fact that he is probably the worst person in the league to have on the court in crunch time. He is a walking turnover when the game is tight.

We all seen them get man handled by the Bobcats as soon as Kobe stepped off the floor. Why is that? Because we dont have another player who can create his own shot or a shot for a teammate. We dumped the ball into Pau and he finally had to be the main player the defense was focusing on. He turned into a little girl and gave it up like he was a virgin on prom night.

This team would not win 35 games without Kobe. And that is a fact.


Outside of Kobe, who else on our team can create a shot?? Like you said, this team would not be a playoff team without him, especially not in the current Western Conference. I think they would win about 41 games, but that would not be enough to make the playoffs. Kobe covers up so many of our deficencies, and people don't realize his importance. The team completely fell apart without Kobe last night against the Bobcats.... Kobe never misses significant time, so people don't realize how we struggle without him on the court....

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 09:26 PM
Outside of Kobe, who else on our team can create a shot?? Like you said, this team would not be a playoff team without him, especially not in the current Western Conference. I think they would win about 41 games, but that would not be enough to make the playoffs. Kobe covers up so many of our deficencies, and people don't realize his importance. The team completely fell apart without Kobe last night against the Bobcats.... Kobe never misses significant time, so people don't realize how we struggle without him on the court....

Exactly. Who did we have to go to when Kobe went out? We tried Gasol. Epic fail. We tried Bynum, he actually did pretty well. Maybe that 21 year old kid gets it more than all of our veterans. But it seemed nobody wanted the ball when it was crunch time. Luke was throwing it all over the place, Lamar and his stupid fouls, Fisher had no one to create an open 3 for him anymore, Pau was crying on the bench, and Bynum was our go to guy. A 21 year old off knee surgery. :(

We got outscored by 10 in 5 minutes without Kobe against the Bobcats after having the game in the bag with him in there. They played like their vagina's hurt after he left for 5 whole minutes. I just hope he can play another 82 games this season and all the playoff healthy or the Lakers aren't winning chit.

JordansBulls
01-28-2009, 09:27 PM
MVP rankings in order:

Lebron
CP3
Dwight

NYMetros
01-28-2009, 10:04 PM
1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. LeBron

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 10:54 PM
JordanBulls, I know your going to argue Kobe not being the MVP because he has 7.2 win shares and Gasol has 6.8. There for Kobe and Pau are equal in importance to the Lakers. But you always try to say Pau is a great player because he LEAD the Grizzlies to a couple winning season. If I may use your own argument against you, Pau was not the most important player on those teams.

In the 03-04 season the Grizz won 50 games. James Posey lead the team in Win shares with 10.1 win shares. Pau only had 8.2

In 04-05 he wasn't even the second most important player on the Grizz according to your stats skewing. Battier lead the team with 7.6 win shares. Mike miller was second with 6.8 Gasol came in third with 6.7

In 05-06 he finally lead the team with 11.5 with Battier coming in second with 8.6.

Are you going to change your opinion that Battier lead those team to those great records with Gasol only being the main reason for one above average season? I doubt it. Kobe might win a championship this year without a single all star on his team. He is the main reason they have the record they do. He is having a better season than last year. He is the MVP. You should stop looking for different ways to say you hate the guy. Putting Lebron and Howard up there is cool, But CP3? What is their record? He is not even in the top 5.

It should be

Kobe/Lebron
Howard
Duncan
Wade
CP3

lakers4sho
01-28-2009, 10:58 PM
*cough* double standard *cough*

Kenny
01-28-2009, 11:02 PM
JordanBulls, I know your going to argue Kobe not being the MVP because he has 7.2 win shares and Gasol has 6.8. There for Kobe and Pau are equal in importance to the Lakers. But you always try to say Pau is a great player because he LEAD the Grizzlies to a couple winning season. If I may use your own argument against you, Pau was not the most important player on those teams.

In the 03-04 season the Grizz won 50 games. James Posey lead the team in Win shares with 10.1 win shares. Pau only had 8.2

In 04-05 he wasn't even the second most important player on the Grizz according to your stats skewing. Battier lead the team with 7.6 win shares. Mike miller was second with 6.8 Gasol came in third with 6.7

In 05-06 he finally lead the team with 11.5 with Battier coming in second with 8.6.

Are you going to change your opinion that Battier lead those team to those great records with Gasol only being the main reason for one above average season? I doubt it. Kobe might win a championship this year without a single all star on his team. He is the main reason they have the record they do. He is having a better season than last year. He is the MVP. You should stop looking for different ways to say you hate the guy. Putting Lebron and Howard up there is cool, But CP3? What is there record? He is not even in the top 5.

It should be

Kobe/Lebron
Howard
Duncan
Wade
CP3

too bad for kobe that lebron is having a better year and has a better record with there 3rd and 4th scorers missing significant time..

still1ballin
01-28-2009, 11:05 PM
JordanBulls, I know your going to argue Kobe not being the MVP because he has 7.2 win shares and Gasol has 6.8. There for Kobe and Pau are equal in importance to the Lakers. But you always try to say Pau is a great player because he LEAD the Grizzlies to a couple winning season. If I may use your own argument against you, Pau was not the most important player on those teams.

In the 03-04 season the Grizz won 50 games. James Posey lead the team in Win shares with 10.1 win shares. Pau only had 8.2

In 04-05 he wasn't even the second most important player on the Grizz according to your stats skewing. Battier lead the team with 7.6 win shares. Mike miller was second with 6.8 Gasol came in third with 6.7

In 05-06 he finally lead the team with 11.5 with Battier coming in second with 8.6.

Are you going to change your opinion that Battier lead those team to those great records with Gasol only being the main reason for one above average season? I doubt it. Kobe might win a championship this year without a single all star on his team. He is the main reason they have the record they do. He is having a better season than last year. He is the MVP. You should stop looking for different ways to say you hate the guy. Putting Lebron and Howard up there is cool, But CP3? What is their record? He is not even in the top 5.

It should be

Kobe/Lebron
Howard
Duncan
Wade
CP3

Wow, you just took a dump on this thread! Nice post!

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 11:06 PM
too bad for kobe that lebron is having a better year and has a better record with there 3rd and 4th scorers missing significant time..

Too bad for Lebron they dont give out the award after the 43rd game.

JordansBulls
01-28-2009, 11:33 PM
I guess last nights game against the Bobcats answered some posters questions. Without Kobe we wouldn't be a top 3 team.

Why would you be a top 3 team without Kobe?

Without Gasol you wouldn't be a top 3 team either.



JordanBulls, I know your going to argue Kobe not being the MVP because he has 7.2 win shares and Gasol has 6.8. There for Kobe and Pau are equal in importance to the Lakers. But you always try to say Pau is a great player because he LEAD the Grizzlies to a couple winning season. If I may use your own argument against you, Pau was not the most important player on those teams.

In the 03-04 season the Grizz won 50 games. James Posey lead the team in Win shares with 10.1 win shares. Pau only had 8.2

In 04-05 he wasn't even the second most important player on the Grizz according to your stats skewing. Battier lead the team with 7.6 win shares. Mike miller was second with 6.8 Gasol came in third with 6.7

In 05-06 he finally lead the team with 11.5 with Battier coming in second with 8.6.

Are you going to change your opinion that Battier lead those team to those great records with Gasol only being the main reason for one above average season? I doubt it. Kobe might win a championship this year without a single all star on his team. He is the main reason they have the record they do. He is having a better season than last year. He is the MVP. You should stop looking for different ways to say you hate the guy. Putting Lebron and Howard up there is cool, But CP3? What is their record? He is not even in the top 5.

It should be

Kobe/Lebron
Howard
Duncan
Wade
CP3


There are a few reasons why those others are more deserving at the moment.

Each of them not only leads there team in Win Shares but CP3 and Lebron lead their teams more by than double. Also both of them have over a 30+ PER at the moment.
Hornets are 27-14 at the current moment and that is on pace to win 55 games.

While Kobe may have a case, he isn't the runaway as most of you believe. I don't mind him being near the top, but Gasol needs to be up their in the top 10 as well if that is the case.
Also even this year for Kobe he is shooting a worse fg% than his team average and he has done that the last 6 years.

Now are you going to tell me Gasol is no allstar? You gotta be joking with that one.

As far as the win shares for Gasol, he played 20 less games than the guys who led the team in it. Win Shares is a cumulative stat. So when one player plays 76 and the other plays 56 games, that is a big difference in who will lead in the statistic.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 11:35 PM
There are a few reasons why those others are more deserving at the moment.

Each of them not only leads there team in Win Shares but CP3 and Lebron lead their teams more by than double. Also both of them have over a 30+ PER at the moment.
Hornets are 27-14 at the current moment and that is on pace to win 55 games.

While Kobe may have a case, he isn't the runaway as most of you believe. I don't mind him being near the top, but Gasol needs to be up their in the top 10 as well if that is the case.
Also even this year for Kobe he is shooting a worse fg% than his team average and he has done that the last 6 years.

Now are you going to tell me Gasol is no allstar? You gotta be joking with that one.

I dont think anyone is saying its a run away. Most Laker fans are saying its Lebron. Not so much in this thread, but the other one. I have said all along whoever leads their team to the best record, should win the award. If Lebron does, he deserves it and nobody should argue that. If Dwight somehow gets the Magic to the top spot, he should win the award. And the same for Kobe.

But to put CP3 up there does not make sense. Duncan carried the Spurs while Parker and Manu were out. He was playing with D league players. He may not put up gaudy stats but he is the main reason for winning. Just because CP3 plays in an offense designed for him to be responsible for all points, does not mean he is more important than Tim Duncan or Kobe.

That is always my argument against stat guys. Whether I'm arguing for Kobe or any other player. Stats never tell the whole story. Just because the Hornets coach's offense has always been a point guard driven offense, which allows CP3 to get all the stats, does not mean he is more valuable to them than Tim Duncan is to the Spurs. Duncan could get ridiculous stats if every time down the floor, they had to throw it to him to be able to score or be the main reason for an open look for a teammate giving him numerous assist. Wouldn't an offense like that make it seem that everyone that Duncan plays with sucks? That offense never gives the other players on the team an opportunity to shine. Thus, making everyone believe that they are playing with crappy teammates. Just like people say CP3 made West. Or the Cavs have no talent around Lebron. In offenses like that, it puts all the shine on one player, and detracts from the rest.

All I'm saying is we should not punish players who play in a system that is not designed to get them all the big stats. CP3, Lebron, and Wade for this year are all guilty of being the go to player by the coaches design. Kobe was that type of player a couple years ago. We all seen his stats get inflated because of it.

But we all know Duncan is the main player for the Spurs. Everyone knows the Lakers are Kobe's team. Just because they want to spread the wealth instead of jacking up their PER's or win shares by dominating the ball, does not mean they are not the MVP'S.

still1ballin
01-28-2009, 11:38 PM
Why would you be a top 3 team without Kobe?

Without Gasol you wouldn't be a top 3 team either.

Posters a couple of days ago were saying w/o Kobe the Lakers can be a top 3
team in the west, and that was proved wrong in last nights game against the Bobcats

If you remember last season, Lakers had the best record in the WC and was way tougher then it is now and we had no gasol. We can still be a top 3 team w/o Gasol. If they did it last season in a tough race, what makes you think they can't do it now?

JordansBulls
01-28-2009, 11:38 PM
I dont think anyone is saying its a run away. Most Laker fans are saying its Lebron. Not so much in this thread, but the other one. I have said all along whoever leads their team to the best record, should win the award. If Lebron does, he deserves it and nobody should argue that. If Dwight somehow gets the Magic to the top spot, he should win the award. And the same for Kobe.

But to put CP3 up there does not make sense. Duncan carried the Spurs while Parker and Manu were out. He was playing with D league players. He may not put up gaudy stats but he is the main reason for winning. Just because CP3 plays in an offense designed for him to be responsible for all points, does not mean he is more important than Tim Duncan or Kobe.

That is always my argument against stat guys. Whether I'm arguing for Kobe or any other player. Stats never tell the whole story. Just because the Hornets coach's offense has always been a point guard driven offense, which allows CP3 to get all the stats, does not mean he is more valuable to them than Tim Duncan is to the Spurs. Duncan could get ridiculous stats if every time down the floor, they had to throw it to him to be able to score or be the main reason for an open look for a teammate giving him numerous assist. Wouldn't an offense like that make it seem that everyone that Duncan plays with sucks? That offense never gives the other players on the team an opportunity to shine. Thus, making everyone believe that they are playing with crappy teammates. Just like people say CP3 made West. Or the Cavs have no talent around Lebron. In offenses like that, it puts all the shine on one player, and detracts from the rest.

All I'm saying is we should not punish players who play in a system that is not designed to get them all the big stats. CP3, Lebron, and Wade for this year are all guilty of being the go to player by the coaches design. Kobe was that type of player a couple years ago. We all seen his stats get inflated because of it.

But we all know Duncan is the main player for the Spurs. Everyone knows the Lakers are Kobe's team. Just because they want to spread the wealth instead of jacking up their PER's or win shares by dominating the ball, does not mean they are not the MVP'S.

If it is about who has the best record, then Garnett should have gotten it last year right?

I also agree that stats don't tell the whole story all the time, but they are useful. I also use them to show that it is more out there then the normal points, rebounds, assists when discussing and evaluating players. Too many fall into the trap that only points and scoring big numbers is all that matters.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 11:39 PM
Why would you be a top 3 team without Kobe?

Without Gasol you wouldn't be a top 3 team either.





There are a few reasons why those others are more deserving at the moment.

Each of them not only leads there team in Win Shares but CP3 and Lebron lead their teams more by than double. Also both of them have over a 30+ PER at the moment.
Hornets are 27-14 at the current moment and that is on pace to win 55 games.

While Kobe may have a case, he isn't the runaway as most of you believe. I don't mind him being near the top, but Gasol needs to be up their in the top 10 as well if that is the case.
Also even this year for Kobe he is shooting a worse fg% than his team average and he has done that the last 6 years.

Now are you going to tell me Gasol is no allstar? You gotta be joking with that one.

As far as the win shares for Gasol, he played 20 less games than the guys who led the team in it. Win Shares is a cumulative stat. So when one player plays 76 and the other plays 56 games, that is a big difference in who will lead in the statistic.

Yeah they would. They were number one last year about this time of the season also. Bynum got hurt. The west was even stronger last year. The Lakers only needed Gasol to come in when they lost a player that could catch a ball when open and put it in the basket. Gasol filled that roll. Bynum is back, so there is no reason for anyone to think they would have regressed. They would have been better just by the sheer fact that all the young guys gained a year of experience.

JordansBulls
01-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Posters a couple of days ago were saying w/o Kobe the Lakers can be a top 3
team in the west, and that was proved wrong in last nights game against the Bobcats

If you remember last season, Lakers had the best record in the WC and was way tougher then it is now and we had no gasol. We can still be a top 3 team w/o Gasol. If they did it last season in a tough race, what makes you think they can't do it now?

If Bynum takes the place of Gasol and does what Gasol does and Odom starts then I agree the Lakers would still be a top 3 team. The problem is, we don't know if Bynum can be as consistent as Gasol.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-28-2009, 11:48 PM
If it is about who has the best record, then Garnett should have gotten it last year right?

I also agree that stats don't tell the whole story all the time, but they are useful. I also use them to show that it is more out there then the normal points, rebounds, assists when discussing and evaluating players. Too many fall into the trap that only points and scoring big numbers is all that matters.

I understand that. But win shares is not a good one to look at. Last year, Manu lead the Spurs in win Shares over Duncan. Does that mean he should have been the MVP? Or that he is even the better player.

And its not usually about who has the best record, but when you have teams that are very similar in how they are built, with one guy being the guy they have built the team around, having virtually the same record, I think this year it might go that way. But if it is not judged that way, Duncan should win the award. He has been the big man in the league for a while now and he showed he can get the big numbers if needed and lead his team to a good record.

JordansBulls
01-28-2009, 11:52 PM
I understand that. But win shares is not a good one to look at. Last year, Manu lead the Spurs in win Shares over Duncan. Does that mean he should have been the MVP? Or that he is even the better player.

And its not usually about who has the best record, but when you have teams that are very similar in how they are built, with one guy being the guy they have built the team around, having virtually the same record, I think this year it might go that way. But if it is not judged that way, Duncan should win the award. He has been the big man in the league for a while now and he showed he can get the big numbers if needed and lead his team to a good record.

It's not the only stat to look at, but it is a good stat.

For instance,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

2008-09 NBA LeBron James 10.52
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.31
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 15.91
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.18
2004-05 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 15.90
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.10
2002-03 NBA Tracy McGrady 16.48
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.68
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 15.02
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 18.70
1998-99 NBA Karl Malone 9.41
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone 16.15
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan 18.27
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan 20.27
1994-95 NBA David Robinson 17.78
1993-94 NBA David Robinson 18.94
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan 16.48
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan 17.31
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan 19.84
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan 18.68
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan 19.08
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan 20.35
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan 16.05
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 15.67
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 15.59
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 15.11
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 15.04
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 14.86
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.38
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.98
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.40
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 12.91
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.45
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.32
ABA Julius Erving* 17.54
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 18.31
ABA Julius Erving* 17.62
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.00
ABA Julius Erving* 16.87


Just look at the names on that list.



Here is the playoffs

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

Rank Player WS
1. Michael Jordan 38.67
2. Magic Johnson* 33.15
3. Shaquille O'Neal 31.09
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.93
5. Tim Duncan 27.14
6. Larry Bird* 24.71
7. Julius Erving* 23.77
8. Scottie Pippen 22.99
9. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22.86
10. Karl Malone 22.79
11. John Stockton 21.24
12. Kevin McHale* 20.55
13. Charles Barkley* 19.79
14. Reggie Miller 19.77
15. Horace Grant 19.53
16. Robert Horry 18.45
17. Kobe Bryant 18.24
18. David Robinson 17.80
19. Chauncey Billups 16.42
20. Clyde Drexler* 15.92




http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly_p.html

Year Lg Player WS
2008 NBA Kevin Garnett 4.00
2007 NBA LeBron James 3.57
2006 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 5.38
2005 NBA Chauncey Billups 4.38
2004 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.78
2003 NBA Tim Duncan 5.98
2002 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 3.85
2001 NBA Kobe Bryant 3.88
2000 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 4.80
1999 NBA Tim Duncan 3.70
1998 NBA Michael Jordan 4.71
1997 NBA Michael Jordan 3.87
1996 NBA Michael Jordan 4.66
1995 NBA Clyde Drexler* 3.05
1994 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 4.35
1993 NBA Charles Barkley* 4.70
1992 NBA Michael Jordan 4.01
1991 NBA Michael Jordan 4.51
1990 NBA Michael Jordan 3.85
1989 NBA Michael Jordan 3.90
1988 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.93
1987 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.79
1986 NBA Larry Bird* 4.20
1985 NBA Magic Johnson* 3.14
1984 NBA Larry Bird* 4.72
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 2.75
1982 NBA Julius Erving* 2.99
1981 NBA Moses Malone* 3.40
1980 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 3.38
1979 NBA Gus Williams 2.63
1978 NBA Elvin Hayes* 3.04
1977 NBA Julius Erving* 3.44
1976 NBA Dave Cowens* 2.63
ABA Julius Erving* 3.72
1975 NBA Rick Barry* 3.05
ABA Artis Gilmore 2.96
1974 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 4.58
ABA Julius Erving* 3.03


Only player on that list that probably doesn't belong is Billups.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-29-2009, 12:05 AM
Im not saying its not a good way of looking to see if they were a good player. Im just saying by looking at that stat, would lead you to beleive Dirk was the best player in the NBA from 04 to 07. We all know there were players who are far better than Dirk all around. Duncan again being the main guy. I know you always say Tim Duncan has been the best player in the NBA over the last decade. Why is he only on that list once? How is the most dominant center on the planet since Wilt only on the List twice? And how often did the guys at the top of the WIN share list win the MVP?

dwiduck
01-29-2009, 12:18 AM
No. I make much much more posts about other players than Lebron. You just notice the posts about Lebron because he is your favorite team..err...player.

Where did he get props from haters or anybody? If anybody gives him props for his performance then they didn't watch the game.

This is about the Cavs barely escaping an awful team with the Cavs supposed nobodies making all the plays late in the game.

I don't "hate him so freaking much." I call it how it is. He HAD 3 turnovers late. He MISSED shot after shot after shot. He played ATROCIOUS defense late (he is supposedly DPOY, right?). I am calling it how it is. I could care less about the GW when the same guy who made this GW played an epically bad performance throughout. As a coach, I would not excuse my player and I don't give James any special treatment. I view his play the same way I would view my own players games. I comment accordingly. The guy played awful and he shouldn't be excused because he hit a single basket.

3 turnovers late? How about he only had 2 ALL game. And how was his D bad? Capt. Jack was just making some ridiculous shots.

GspLAL
01-29-2009, 12:54 AM
Why would you be a top 3 team without Kobe?

Without Gasol you wouldn't be a top 3 team either.

You serious? Are you forgetting that Lakers were # 1 in the west before Bynum went down and were playing better defense BEFORE Gasol came.

JordansBulls
01-29-2009, 01:23 AM
You serious? Are you forgetting that Lakers were # 1 in the west before Bynum went down and were playing better defense BEFORE Gasol came.

You were #1 for like 2 days. Rockets were #1 as well with Yao out. Doesn't matter though because they didn't keep it. Lakers wouldn't have either with Bynum around and no Gasol. Lakers were 21-4 with Gasol. I'm quite sure they would have lost another 4-6 games with Bynum in place of Gasol.

GspLAL
01-29-2009, 01:35 AM
You were #1 for like 2 days. Rockets were #1 as well with Yao out. Doesn't matter though because they didn't keep it. Lakers wouldn't have either with Bynum around and no Gasol. Lakers were 21-4 with Gasol. I'm quite sure they would have lost another 4-6 games with Bynum in place of Gasol.

And you're the basketball God who can predict everything right? Lakers were playing better defense, Bynum was playing almost like he's playing now, fact is Lakers were still amazing without Gasol.

Chronz
01-29-2009, 02:24 AM
Sounds to me like you guys are putting awhole lot of value on a few minutes without Kobe. Like if the team wouldve gone on to win, would it have made Kobe expendable?

How many times has the team won without Kobe over the course of his career, its never made him expendable. When they were contenders the Lakers would have like a .600winning% without Kobe. That didnt mean they were contenders without him.

How many times have the Lakers extended the lead with Kobe on the bench? If Kobe was injured for say a week or 2, and the team totally collapsed then you guys would have something, but this 2 minute sample doesnt tell me much.

An entire seasons worth of possessions tells me alot more and even then Im skeptical with the results:
Lakers Without Kobe : +3.9 Differential ( .500 team)
Cavs without Bron: -5.7 Differential (mid lottery team)
Heat without Wade: -15.0 Differential
Hornets without CP3 : -15.9 (Crap team)

These are flawed unadjusted numbers so I take them with a grain of salt but imagine how much I value 1 overtime session? I think its pretty clear of the MVP contenders, Kobe has the most talent around him. The fact that they are so much better with him is a compliment to his leadership. But nobody should try and act like the Lakers would suffer the most of any team in the league if they lost their star when Bron, CP3, Wade all mean much more to theirs. If Kobe went out you atleast have others who could step in and replace some of his abilities, if LeBron went out the team would suffer on BOTH ends, if CP3 or Wade go down, their teams are nothing.

Shieldsz
01-29-2009, 02:36 AM
Every single post I have read in here revolves around Kobe Bryant. :laugh2:

He is probably the Most Valuable Player in this league when you really think about it, and I am not a huge "Kobe" lover. He plays great defense, is nearly unstoppable on offense.

With that being said, I find the MVP award kind of stupid. Steve Nash won it twice. Was he REALLY the most valuable player? I don't think so. Maybe my definition of valuable differs from someone else's though.

JordansBulls
01-29-2009, 11:04 AM
Im not saying its not a good way of looking to see if they were a good player. Im just saying by looking at that stat, would lead you to beleive Dirk was the best player in the NBA from 04 to 07. We all know there were players who are far better than Dirk all around. Duncan again being the main guy. I know you always say Tim Duncan has been the best player in the NBA over the last decade. Why is he only on that list once? How is the most dominant center on the planet since Wilt only on the List twice? And how often did the guys at the top of the WIN share list win the MVP?

No it means that Dirk was the most important player in helping his team win those years. That is why his win shares were highest. Also he was leading the league in PER as well.

I'm going to give you an example:

The other day Kobe and Gasol both were at 6.8 win shares for the Lakers. After the Charlotte game, Kobe's win shares jumped up 0.4 or to 7.2 while Gasol's win shares stayed the same at 6.8. Why? Because Kobe contributed much more to the Lakers winning then Gasol did even though the Lakers lost the game. Remember you get 1.0 win share per game as a team and it is divided up among the players on the team.
So although Kobe had a spectacular game, you clearly see how his win shares were impacted based on it and how Gasol having a bad game didn't improve his win shares for the team.

PER is basically a stat that tells you who has the best numbers in the league.

How do you measure whose numbers are better between a player that is averaging 28/5/5 on 46% and one who is averaging 21/11/3 on 50% or one that is getting 25 and 10 on 52% or one that is getting 28/7/7 on 49% of guys playing relatively the same amount of minutes?
How do you determine that from looking at the stats? You can't unless you are using the Player Efficiency Rating. That statistic basically tells you who is the most productive player in the league.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-29-2009, 09:54 PM
No it means that Dirk was the most important player in helping his team win those years. That is why his win shares were highest. Also he was leading the league in PER as well.

I'm going to give you an example:

The other day Kobe and Gasol both were at 6.8 win shares for the Lakers. After the Charlotte game, Kobe's win shares jumped up 0.4 or to 7.2 while Gasol's win shares stayed the same at 6.8. Why? Because Kobe contributed much more to the Lakers winning then Gasol did even though the Lakers lost the game. Remember you get 1.0 win share per game as a team and it is divided up among the players on the team.
So although Kobe had a spectacular game, you clearly see how his win shares were impacted based on it and how Gasol having a bad game didn't improve his win shares for the team.

PER is basically a stat that tells you who has the best numbers in the league.

How do you measure whose numbers are better between a player that is averaging 28/5/5 on 46% and one who is averaging 21/11/3 on 50% or one that is getting 25 and 10 on 52% or one that is getting 28/7/7 on 49% of guys playing relatively the same amount of minutes?
How do you determine that from looking at the stats? You can't unless you are using the Player Efficiency Rating. That statistic basically tells you who is the most productive player in the league.

But the win shares is calculated funny in my opinion. They take a players defensive rating. Which calculates the amount of points a player gives up per 100 possessions. There is no way they can get an accurate number as to what they are really contributing on defense. Bruce Bowen, who is a well known defensive specialist, has a defensive rating of 102 for his career. Lebron James who was known to be a liability on defense until this year has a defensive rating of 103. I contend that Lebron is going to get a high defensive rating because they always put him on the other teams weaker scorers. They would hide him on the weak side to try and cover up this deficiency in his game. Of course you are not going to give up a lot of points guarding the opponents weakest players. As opposed to Kobe, Bowen, Artest and other wings who are going to guard the opponents best perimeter scorer. Of course they are going to give up more points guarding Dwane Wades, Micheal Redds, Kobes, and Lebrons of the world.

cmstophe
01-29-2009, 10:39 PM
Lebron should fall in MVP ranking after tonight.

JordansBulls
01-29-2009, 10:45 PM
But the win shares is calculated funny in my opinion. They take a players defensive rating. Which calculates the amount of points a player gives up per 100 possessions. There is no way they can get an accurate number as to what they are really contributing on defense. Bruce Bowen, who is a well known defensive specialist, has a defensive rating of 102 for his career. Lebron James who was known to be a liability on defense until this year has a defensive rating of 103. I contend that Lebron is going to get a high defensive rating because they always put him on the other teams weaker scorers. They would hide him on the weak side to try and cover up this deficiency in his game. Of course you are not going to give up a lot of points guarding the opponents weakest players. As opposed to Kobe, Bowen, Artest and other wings who are going to guard the opponents best perimeter scorer. Of course they are going to give up more points guarding Dwane Wades, Micheal Redds, Kobes, and Lebrons of the world.

Just so you know that the lower the Defensive Rating the better the defense is supposed to be. So Bowen's rating of 102 is better.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-29-2009, 11:04 PM
Just so you know that the lower the Defensive Rating the better the defense is supposed to be. So Bowen's rating of 102 is better.

I know, but its saying Lebron gives up only 103 points per 100 possessions. And Bowen gives up 102. That is my problem with the rating. Bowen has been the far better defender for his entire career. But according the defensive rating, they are pretty equal. That stat is misleading, as well a win shares. And the only way anyone would be able to know that Bowen was the better defender, is to watch the games. According to the win shares and Drtg, Lebron has just as much of an impact on the defensive side as Bowen. And I know for a fact that is not the case.

Its kind of the same way you dont like to people to look at the common stats of points, rebounds and assist as the end all be all. I would hate for people to look at defensive rating and think Lebron is even in the same class as Bowen on that end of the floor. Watching the games and knowing the reason why Lebron does not allow a lot more points than Bowen (LBJ guarding inferior scorers) makes me take that stat with a grain of salt. And the fact that it directly affects his win shares makes me look at that stat funny as well.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Lebron should fall in MVP ranking after tonight.

To be fair to Lebron, he was not getting any calls tonight. I think he stopped going to the basket after that and his field goal percentage was affected because of it.

cmstophe
01-29-2009, 11:17 PM
To be fair to Lebron, he was not getting any calls tonight. I think he stopped going to the basket after that and his field goal percentage was affected because of it.

He should have gone to the basket MORE after Mo and Mike Brown flipped out and got teched, not started settling for jumpers. He was just awful tonight.

Chronz
01-29-2009, 11:19 PM
Offensive rating is the total points a player produces (Not individually) per 100 possessions.

Defensive Rating is suppose to be the exact opposite (PTS allowed), except that it measures players based on their floor time units. In other words when your looking at a players Defensive RTG, keep in mind that your also looking at what credit/blame the OTHER 4 guys are getting. Being a great defensive team tends to bog down the players defensive rating, its why you see the best defensive teams sporting the best defenders, and vice versa.

Like most defensive metrics, it only tells but a piece of the story, I will say that if you find a player with an incredible defensive rating on a truly woeful defensive team, chances are hes a good defender. But with these numbers more than any other, you need constant updates on the players defensive scheme and his teammates, the eyes tell more than the numbers ever could from the defensive side of the ball. That doesnt mean you cant cross analyze them, just that you do so with extreme objectivity.

Anyways, because WinShares are a byproduct of Offensive/Defensive RTG, they are inherently more flawed than simply looking at the offensive metrics on it own to measure strictly offensive credit. The thing about winshares is that (like +/-) is that they are fairly accurate when defined within the parameters of the players own team, and even then I try to keep them separate (OWS/DWS). When measuring the overall WinShares of 2 players on different teams you have to account for the quality in the teams overall defense. Some players would get more defensive winshares simply by being on a better defensive team even if the guy hes replacing was a superior defender. Not saying this is the case all the time but Ive noticed a slight trend, the best defensive players usually carry over no matter where they go. However rare they are.

I really only look at defensive winshares with guys who I find to be true defensive anchors, guys whom without the team could not even come close to being elite defensively (Zo, Duncan, Ewing, D-Rob) etc....

I dont know what you guys are talking about specifically (Ill catch up in a minute) just wanted to add my 2 cents

still1ballin
01-30-2009, 12:05 AM
Can we go back to the basics and stop with this technical stuff? I doubt the people who chooses the MVP at the end of the season look at that type of stuff.

ARMIN12NBA
01-30-2009, 02:27 AM
Lebron should fall in MVP ranking after tonight.

One game doesn't dictate an entire seasons worth of great play.

JayW_1023
01-30-2009, 07:31 AM
Can we go back to the basics and stop with this technical stuff? I doubt the people who chooses the MVP at the end of the season look at that type of stuff.

:laugh:

The basics...lol...I'll give it a try...ermmm...LeBron ownz lol, Kobe sux lol, shudnt be MVP with such awesum talent...

*sigh* allright, I give up, I can't do this :shrug:

I can feel my braincells deteriorating already :faint:

Highlight
01-30-2009, 10:26 AM
:laugh:

The basics...lol...I'll give it a try...ermmm...LeBron ownz lol, Kobe sux lol, shudnt be MVP with such awesum talent...

*sigh* allright, I give up, I can't do this :shrug:

I can feel my braincells deteriorating already :faint:

:laugh2:

still1ballin
01-30-2009, 12:45 PM
:laugh:

The basics...lol...I'll give it a try...ermmm...LeBron ownz lol, Kobe sux lol, shudnt be MVP with such awesum talent...

*sigh* allright, I give up, I can't do this :shrug:

I can feel my braincells deteriorating already :faint:

LOL you know what I mean

lakers4sho
01-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Kobe izz tha pwnzz

GoatMilk
01-30-2009, 02:50 PM
Kobe's not winning MVP.
LeBron is and thats that.

anyways, Chauncey Billups is the TRUE MVP. I said it earlier, but I wanted to say it again :D

Zefflin
01-30-2009, 04:01 PM
Kobe's not winning MVP.
LeBron is and thats that.

It's barely halfway through the season and both are neck and neck. You're a close-minded fool if you think that.

still1ballin
01-31-2009, 12:11 AM
Kobe's not winning MVP.
LeBron is and thats that.

anyways, Chauncey Billups is the TRUE MVP. I said it earlier, but I wanted to say it again :D

Are you a Laker fan? Do you support Kobe? We can all be realistic man. I also think LeBron is going to win it, but I am not going to rule out Kobe. I hope Kobe wins, I am rooting for him.. You never know LeBron gets injured so bad he misses a lot of time and boom, Kobe goes ahead. You don't win the MVP for playing half of a season.

Lakers4ItAll
02-02-2009, 06:11 PM
I think right now Lebron has the MVP on lock BUT with Bynum now out Kobe is going to have to step it up and he might take it. We will all just have to watch n see how the season folds out

MossIsBoss
02-02-2009, 06:26 PM
LeBron, the man has been so close to winning every time. About time he got one

still1ballin
02-02-2009, 07:07 PM
Watch out LeBron, Kobe is going into second gear and he ain't looking back!

gangis2169
02-03-2009, 01:09 AM
Let Lebron win it who cares!!!!! Let Lebron win the next 20 i could care less. His team and his play will never win a title. He still has alot to learn. As long as the Lakers win titles I could care less. Actually if anybody else but Cleveland wins Ill be cool. So yes give him the awards and lets all marvel at his play along with ESPN and the NBA. As the true legends start to separate themselves from him.

PS. If Miami finishes in the 4th spot in the East then WADE should win hands down! But it will be just like Lebron was before got Mo Williams to help out.

But it is still obvious that Kobe is still the best player in the world hands down. If they ask Lebron that question a 100 times he will tell you Kobe 100 times.

lakersrock
02-03-2009, 01:51 AM
If Bynum is out two months and the Lakers win 62+ games, Kobe will get it hands down.

JayW_1023
02-03-2009, 07:31 AM
Kobe had a crazy 61 in MSG...kinda echoed alot of Jordan there. Unbelievable, with two bum fingers. That's pretty impressive.

It's deadlocked between him and LBJ...each of them have a huge case.

Draco
02-03-2009, 08:25 AM
Taking nothing away from Kobe.. his scoring outburst "echoed a lot of" his 81 point games against the Raptors; both against teams that sucked on D. I draw no Jordan comparisons here.. This is Kobesque, not Jordanesque.

And how does one game against the Knicks deadlock Kobe and Lebron?

lakerboy
02-03-2009, 09:26 AM
Because it hasn't been just one game.

cmstophe
02-03-2009, 11:58 AM
Let Lebron win it who cares!!!!! Let Lebron win the next 20 i could care less. His team and his play will never win a title. He still has alot to learn. As long as the Lakers win titles I could care less. Actually if anybody else but Cleveland wins Ill be cool. So yes give him the awards and lets all marvel at his play along with ESPN and the NBA. As the true legends start to separate themselves from him.

PS. If Miami finishes in the 4th spot in the East then WADE should win hands down! But it will be just like Lebron was before got Mo Williams to help out.

But it is still obvious that Kobe is still the best player in the world hands down. If they ask Lebron that question a 100 times he will tell you Kobe 100 times.

Dumbest post I ever read. Top defensive/rebounding with a top 2 player in the game doesn't win titles?

:rolleyes:

You come off like an upset child. LeBron has a TON to learn. That doesn't mean he isn't MVP, and it doesn't mean his team's "style" doesn't win titles.

Kenny
02-03-2009, 02:05 PM
LOL at people saying it's deadlocked.. Lebron just finished one of the best months you cfan ever have.. They were talking about it on espn radio.. Averaging 28-9.5-8.5 for the entire month, almost a tripple double

what54!?
02-03-2009, 02:30 PM
As long as the cavs stay in the top 3 in the east its lebrons trophy

ARMIN12NBA
02-03-2009, 05:38 PM
Taking nothing away from Kobe.. his scoring outburst "echoed a lot of" his 81 point games against the Raptors; both against teams that sucked on D. I draw no Jordan comparisons here.. This is Kobesque, not Jordanesque.

And how does one game against the Knicks deadlock Kobe and Lebron?

62 points against the Mavericks who made the Finals in three quarters (29 minutes of play to be exact). Beast. :smoking:

Turk
02-03-2009, 05:51 PM
62 points against the Mavericks who made the Finals in three quarters (29 minutes of play to be exact). Beast. :smoking:

Great. Amazing Armin.I agre, Kobe is the greatest player of all time. I think he deserves MVP again.

Gup
02-03-2009, 06:10 PM
The league WANTS LBJ to win the MVP. Its time for him to take over this league, and start winning championships at will

2010 = LBJ and D Wade plying in New York????? that wouldnt need anyone else on that team haha

MiamiHeat
02-03-2009, 06:17 PM
The league WANTS LBJ to win the MVP. Its time for him to take over this league, and start winning championships at will

2010 = LBJ and D Wade plying in New York????? that wouldnt need anyone else on that team haha

nah is more likely that Bosh leaves Canada and goes to NY

Draco
02-03-2009, 06:29 PM
nah is more likely that Bosh leaves Canada and goes to NY

I think it's more likely that Bosh leaves Canada and goes to the Heat than NY.. NY has nothing to offer in trade.

lakers4sho
02-03-2009, 06:30 PM
Well if the Knicks have cap space they would love to get both LBJ and Bosh. And in that case, if I were Bosh, I would choose to go to New York.

cmstophe
02-03-2009, 06:45 PM
This is not a 2010 thread

FaceDown91
02-03-2009, 06:54 PM
I think it's more likely that Bosh leaves Canada and goes to the Heat than NY.. NY has nothing to offer in trade.

Wilson Chandler? Al Harrington and his contract? David Lee?

Draco
02-03-2009, 07:05 PM
Wilson Chandler? Al Harrington and his contract? David Lee?

Any Heat offer that includes Beasley would trump that.

boms-4
02-03-2009, 07:06 PM
how will the heat afford both Wade and Lebron

FaceDown91
02-03-2009, 07:10 PM
Any Heat offer that includes Beasley would trump that.

not if the knicks offer wilson and david lee in 1 deal and maybe an expiring. but then again i dont think the knicks would do that.

I can see the bulls giving a lot of teams espically the raptors the best offer.

jrodmesche
02-03-2009, 07:15 PM
Wade he is the best so far this year hes led a 15 win team to 26 wins already and the heat are rollin for the fourth playoff seed how can you not look at him for mvp

FaceDown91
02-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Wade he is the best so far this year hes led a 15 win team to 26 wins already and the heat are rollin for the fourth playoff seed how can you not look at him for mvp

cause ESPN is making sure lebron gets it....

QUICKTRADE
02-03-2009, 08:01 PM
espn sucks big time...................

Zefflin
02-03-2009, 08:07 PM
Kobe will win it.

FaceDown91
02-03-2009, 08:14 PM
espn sucks big time...................

too bad its really the only sports show that focus's only on sports.

LAKERS 24/7
02-03-2009, 09:27 PM
If the Lakers continue winning at the same rate and end up having an identical or better record that cleveland, Kobe should get it. Or the NBA might give it to Lebron anyway.

Chronz
02-03-2009, 09:32 PM
If the Lakers continue winning at the same rate and end up having an identical or better record that cleveland, Kobe should get it. Or the NBA might give it to Lebron anyway.

Let me get this straight, if the 2 have the same record, even with LeBron being more responsible for his teams success, having the superior season individually (historically may be the best individual season ever) and having marginally less talent healthy, yet youd give it to Kobe?

WOW, Im just baffled, the only way Kobe deserves MVP is if the Lakers win alot more games then the Cavs.

This is typical of Laker homers, Im not saying you are one but your definitely being influenced by their way of thinking, even down to the last sentence where you say if Bron wins it, its because the league gave it to him.

FaceDown91
02-03-2009, 09:35 PM
Let me get this straight, if the 2 have the same record, even with LeBron being more responsible for his teams success and having marginally less talent healthy youd give it to Kobe? LAME

i would not marginally less talent now that bynum is injured. To me i thought mo williams had a lot to do with the cavs success.

Infact, if mo becomes an all star, then cavs and lakers both have 2 all stars.

FaceDown91
02-03-2009, 09:37 PM
WOW, Im just baffled, the only way Kobe deserves MVP is if the Lakers win alot more games then the Cavs.

This is typical of Laker homers, Im not saying you are one but your definitely being influenced by their way of thinking, even down to the last sentence where you say if Bron wins it, its because the league gave it to him.

im not a laker fan but i dont even think both of those players deserve the mvp award as much as wade. if he carries his team to the top 6 or 5 in the east with the heat's currant team i think he should get it.

ARMIN12NBA
02-03-2009, 09:39 PM
Let me get this straight, if the 2 have the same record, even with LeBron being more responsible for his teams success, having the superior season individually (historically may be the best individual season ever) and having marginally less talent healthy, yet youd give it to Kobe?

WOW, Im just baffled, the only way Kobe deserves MVP is if the Lakers win alot more games then the Cavs.

This is typical of Laker homers, Im not saying you are one but your definitely being influenced by their way of thinking, even down to the last sentence where you say if Bron wins it, its because the league gave it to him.

:cry:

BTW--The season is barely over the halfway point. There should be no reason to be completely baffled at the thought of Kobe possibly being the MVP. The season is young. Why is winning "a lot" more games the "only" way Kobe can win? There is plenty of season to be played and Bryant can end up with better stats, record, overall play, and mystique to his season (3 fingers, no Bynum, etc.). Lets not just give the award, lock it up in a box, and call others a homer for predicting a late season rally by a certain player.

gangis2169
02-03-2009, 09:53 PM
Dumbest post I ever read. Top defensive/rebounding with a top 2 player in the game doesn't win titles?

:rolleyes:

You come off like an upset child. LeBron has a TON to learn. That doesn't mean he isn't MVP, and it doesn't mean his team's "style" doesn't win titles.

When did I say that Lebron wasnt the MVP????? Damn see even when I vent about ESPN, NBA, and Lebron to get a reaction you still dont read it right? What a tool! I said let him have it. Let him have the next 10 I could care less. I will put my money that Lebron will not win with the team he has. If you want to talk about Rebounds and Defense lets talk about how the one player who the Cavs will look to in the playoffs and the championship can shoot worth D**K outside the Paint period!!!!! Keep him out of the paint and no matter how much defense and rebounding you have you have to be a balanced team and the Cavs are not. Lebron shoots 37% from the paint to the 3 point line and he shoots 28% from the 3 point mark. (Check the stats at 82games.com). That will not win ever. Cause come playoff time I dont care how you look at it Mo Williams and Big Z will not take you to a ring.

lakers4sho
02-03-2009, 09:55 PM
:cry:

BTW--The season is barely over the halfway point. There should be no reason to be completely baffled at the thought of Kobe possibly being the MVP. The season is young. Why is winning "a lot" more games the "only" way Kobe can win? There is plenty of season to be played and Bryant can end up with better stats, record, overall play, and mystique to his season (3 fingers, no Bynum, etc.). Lets not just give the award, lock it up in a box, and call others a homer for predicting a late season rally by a certain player.

Yeah, that's why Chronz criticized the other guy for saying "Kobe should get it", when both players are playing their best seasons and their teams have identical records. And with LeBron averaging better stats, it would be even more unfair to lock up the award and give it to Kobe, just like you said.

Chronz was mainly criticizing the other guy for the reasons you yourself stated.

ARMIN12NBA
02-03-2009, 09:58 PM
Yeah, that's why Chronz criticized the other guy for saying "Kobe should get it", when both players are playing their best seasons and their teams have identical records. And with LeBron averaging better stats, it would be even more unfair to lock up the award and give it to Kobe, just like you said.

Chronz was mainly criticizing the other guy for the reasons you yourself stated.

He was making a prediction on the future though, but Chronz basically put it down as impossible as if Kobe could not make up ground in the future. There was a difference.

lakers4sho
02-03-2009, 10:10 PM
He was probably "baffled" because the other guy said:

"If the Lakers continue winning at the same rate and end up having an identical or better record that cleveland, Kobe should get it."

Note that the other guy said it originally, not Chronz.

ARMIN12NBA
02-03-2009, 10:13 PM
He was probably "baffled" because the other guy said:

"If the Lakers continue winning at the same rate and end up having an identical or better record that cleveland, Kobe should get it."

Note that the other guy said it originally, not Chronz.

I know. I'm just saying that you never know what can happen. Kobe, just to get this team to keep pace with CLE, will probably increase his stats and level of play. Not to mention the mystique surrounding the season with a Bynum injury and playing with 3 healthy fingers. All that combined, Lakers 24/7 may be thinking that Kobe should deserve MVP...

lakers4sho
02-03-2009, 10:16 PM
I know. I'm just saying that you never know what can happen. Kobe, just to get this team to keep pace with CLE, will probably increase his stats and level of play. Not to mention the mystique surrounding the season with a Bynum injury and playing with 3 healthy fingers. All that combined, Lakers 24/7 may be thinking that Kobe should deserve MVP...

I wouldn't say Player X "should" deserve MVP until later on this season. A lot of things might and will happen. How do you know the Lakers WILL keep pace with CLE? You never know.

Like I said, I wouldn't make my MVP predictions until late this season.

ARMIN12NBA
02-03-2009, 10:22 PM
I wouldn't say Player X "should" deserve MVP until later on this season. A lot of things might and will happen. How do you know the Lakers WILL keep pace with CLE? You never know.

Like I said, I wouldn't make my MVP predictions until late this season.

LOL. That is what I was saying to Chronz. A lot of things can happen so it shouldn't be baffling for him or someone shouldn't be labeled a homer to think there is a possibility of Kobe winning the MVP with all things considered.

lakers4sho
02-03-2009, 10:28 PM
LOL. That is what I was saying to Chronz. A lot of things can happen so it shouldn't be baffling for him or someone shouldn't be labeled a homer to think there is a possibility of Kobe winning the MVP with all things considered.

No I think [ and I might be wrong ] that Chronz was criticizing the other guy because the other guy said that Kobe would win MVP if they get more wins than the Cavs. Like I said, the other guy said it first.

I don't know :shrug:

cmstophe
02-03-2009, 11:44 PM
When did I say that Lebron wasnt the MVP????? Damn see even when I vent about ESPN, NBA, and Lebron to get a reaction you still dont read it right? What a tool! I said let him have it. Let him have the next 10 I could care less. I will put my money that Lebron will not win with the team he has. If you want to talk about Rebounds and Defense lets talk about how the one player who the Cavs will look to in the playoffs and the championship can shoot worth D**K outside the Paint period!!!!! Keep him out of the paint and no matter how much defense and rebounding you have you have to be a balanced team and the Cavs are not. Lebron shoots 37% from the paint to the 3 point line and he shoots 28% from the 3 point mark. (Check the stats at 82games.com). That will not win ever. Cause come playoff time I dont care how you look at it Mo Williams and Big Z will not take you to a ring.

But LeBron James combined with those guys, will. GG.

LAKERS 24/7
02-04-2009, 01:54 AM
This is typical of Laker homers, Im not saying you are one but your definitely being influenced by their way of thinking, even down to the last sentence where you say if Bron wins it, its because the league gave it to him.

When I said the NBA would "give it to him" I wasn't implying that he is not deserving. I acknowledge the fact that he is having a tremendous season and in the end he will no doubt be top 2 in the race. Without going into what goes on behind the scenes in the NBA in terms of how the media might 'want' Lebron to win the MVP, at the current rate, it is a 2 man race between Kobe and Lebron.

My reasoning is that because the Lakers and Cavs are tied in the standings, that Lebron has more to do with with his team's success than Kobe, and that he has less talent around him (which is debatable but whatever, I'll agree for the sake of the argument) is the reason he is ranked #1 in the MVP rankings with Kobe a close second currently.

However, as ARMN12NBA stated, if by season's end the Lakers have a better record than the cavs, then it is because Kobe raised his level of play (like an MVP would, some might say) despite the injuries on his shooting hand, the loss of his 3rd best player/defensive anchor (a lot of fans think he is our 2nd best player, once again up for debate), and a banged up body in general. Throw in a few spectacular performances (such as the 61), then as a fan, I can only hope that it would suffice to win him another MVP award. But that's all I can do as a fan, is hope, and I admit it will take an incredible second half of the season for Kobe to pull this off (but I wouldn't doubt it).


No I think [ and I might be wrong ] that Chronz was criticizing the other guy because the other guy said that Kobe would win MVP if they get more wins than the Cavs. Like I said, the other guy said it first.

I don't know :shrug:

That other guy didn't say a lot of things hoping people would read between the lines. Just trying to give my 2 cents on what could happen...

ARMIN12NBA
02-04-2009, 03:42 AM
When I said the NBA would "give it to him" I wasn't implying that he is not deserving. I acknowledge the fact that he is having a tremendous season and in the end he will no doubt be top 2 in the race. Without going into what goes on behind the scenes in the NBA in terms of how the media might 'want' Lebron to win the MVP, at the current rate, it is a 2 man race between Kobe and Lebron.

My reasoning is that because the Lakers and Cavs are tied in the standings, that Lebron has more to do with with his team's success than Kobe, and that he has less talent around him (which is debatable but whatever, I'll agree for the sake of the argument) is the reason he is ranked #1 in the MVP rankings with Kobe a close second currently.

However, as ARMN12NBA stated, if by season's end the Lakers have a better record than the cavs, then it is because Kobe raised his level of play (like an MVP would, some might say) despite the injuries on his shooting hand, the loss of his 3rd best player/defensive anchor (a lot of fans think he is our 2nd best player, once again up for debate), and a banged up body in general. Throw in a few spectacular performances (such as the 61), then as a fan, I can only hope that it would suffice to win him another MVP award. But that's all I can do as a fan, is hope, and I admit it will take an incredible second half of the season for Kobe to pull this off (but I wouldn't doubt it).



That other guy didn't say a lot of things hoping people would read between the lines. Just trying to give my 2 cents on what could happen...

I could tell what you were trying to say man. It would only make sense. Injuries fallen upon teammates and injuries upon Bryant, if the Lakers were to somehow get the same or better record then the Cavs then it would only make sense that Bryant seriously raised his level of play. So yah, I got what you were saying.

Lakersfan2483
02-04-2009, 03:59 AM
I want to see this entire season play out before we start handing the award to Lebron James. He's having a fantastic season and is winning, but we are only halfway through the season, let's see how the Cavs finish before people start saying he is the clear cut MVP. A lot of guys are playing great baskeball this season including, Kobe, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, so in my estimation, it's not Lebron's award yet.... (Espn would have everyone believe it's his award now, but let's wait until the season is over first)

mfb_lt1birdman
02-04-2009, 01:52 PM
This Bynum injury does give Kobe a bigger opportunity. If Kobe elevates his game to take up the slack and the Lakers end up with a better record than the Cavs, I don't see how you could not award it to Kobe.

Up to this point, it is Lebrons to lose. And coming from a Lakers fan I really do not like Lebron-incredible player but he is the enemy. :)

Chronz
02-04-2009, 05:33 PM
i would not marginally less talent now that bynum is injured. To me i thought mo williams had a lot to do with the cavs success.
Big Z and Delonte have been out for awhile now, playing without Bynum the rest of the year does even the playing field alot though.


Infact, if mo becomes an all star, then cavs and lakers both have 2 all stars
I dont evaluate a teams talent pool that way, whether Mo makes the All-Star game or not hes an All-Star period.


im not a laker fan but i dont even think both of those players deserve the mvp award as much as wade. if he carries his team to the top 6 or 5 in the east with the heat's currant team i think he should get it.
Im sure the Heat will end up with a top5 seeding and Im sure you could make a case for him but I doubt its as strong as LeBrons, not at the rate hes going.



BTW--The season is barely over the halfway point. There should be no reason to be completely baffled at the thought of Kobe possibly being the MVP. The season is young. Why is winning "a lot" more games the "only" way Kobe can win?

Your right, this time last year I thought KG had it wrapped up as well, but your also wrong, under the preordained circumstances the Laker fan gave, which were that the trend (that has held true all year thus far) stayed on its current pace, Cavs being neck and neck with the Lakers, with Bron having the better individual season and more influence on his teams success it should be a no brainer, the only way Kobe would win in that scenario is if he won significantly more games, then again maybe I misunderstood him. Anyways, playing without Bynum evens out the teams, from this point on the talent pool is comparable, thing is Bron has been playing without a Bynum/Pau tandem for an entire season(His best player is just now coming back). Kobes just now (well for the past month or so actually but you know what I mean) entering Bron's territory of combining individual brilliance with tremendous team success and being held more accountable for his teams success. I do expect Kobe to play alot better from here on out, I just think its 30 or so games too late.


There is plenty of season to be played and Bryant can end up with better stats, record, overall play, and mystique to his season (3 fingers, no Bynum, etc.). Lets not just give the award, lock it up in a box, and call others a homer for predicting a late season rally by a certain player.
Another thing I shouldve considered is that if the Lakers maintain their current winning% even with the Loss of Bynum then obviously it would be a result of Kobe stepping up his game, and thus being deemed more "valuable" on the MVP scale for the fortunes of his teams success. Could definitely elevate his status, but right now its Bron by a fair margin, Kobe could close on it like he did last year so I wont count him out. I just dont think it means that much to him

NYMetros
02-04-2009, 05:39 PM
This next game between the Cavs and Lakers will give the winner of the game an edge in this race IMO.
Whoever has the bigger game takes the lead in the MVP race.

Chronz
02-04-2009, 05:43 PM
When I said the NBA would "give it to him" I wasn't implying that he is not deserving. I acknowledge the fact that he is having a tremendous season and in the end he will no doubt be top 2 in the race. Without going into what goes on behind the scenes in the NBA in terms of how the media might 'want' Lebron to win the MVP, at the current rate, it is a 2 man race between Kobe and Lebron.
I agree


My reasoning is that because the Lakers and Cavs are tied in the standings, that Lebron has more to do with with his team's success than Kobe, and that he has less talent around him (which is debatable but whatever, I'll agree for the sake of the argument) is the reason he is ranked #1 in the MVP rankings with Kobe a close second currently.

However, as ARMN12NBA stated, if by season's end the Lakers have a better record than the cavs, then it is because Kobe raised his level of play (like an MVP would, some might say) despite the injuries on his shooting hand, the loss of his 3rd best player/defensive anchor (a lot of fans think he is our 2nd best player, once again up for debate), and a banged up body in general. Throw in a few spectacular performances (such as the 61), then as a fan, I can only hope that it would suffice to win him another MVP award. But that's all I can do as a fan, is hope, and I admit it will take an incredible second half of the season for Kobe to pull this off (but I wouldn't doubt it).

I just got the feeling you were trying to portray as Bron stealing Kobes MVP, but under the same circumstances, Dwight just lost his best penetrater/all star, if the Magic keep winning at the same rate he too could rise in the MVP standings but I doubt they do. He doesnt have that same range for improvement that Kobe does when one of his teammates falls.


That other guy didn't say a lot of things hoping people would read between the lines. Just trying to give my 2 cents on what could happen...
Perhaps I missed out on the bigger picture

Chronz
02-04-2009, 05:44 PM
This next game between the Cavs and Lakers will give the winner of the game an edge in this race IMO.
Whoever has the bigger game takes the lead in the MVP race.
Why?

NYMetros
02-04-2009, 06:39 PM
Why?

A.) Plays a big part in who finishes out with the better record for the season
B.) People look at what MVP candidates do head-to-head against each other more than a lot of other things.

Lakers4ItAll
02-04-2009, 06:48 PM
I don't agree w/ this at all.

It's only 1 game and not even same conference.

And it doesn't matter who has a bigger game it matters which team wins.



A.) Plays a big part in who finishes out with the better record for the season
B.) People look at what MVP candidates do head-to-head against each other more than a lot of other things.

FaceDown91
02-04-2009, 06:58 PM
A.) Plays a big part in who finishes out with the better record for the season
B.) People look at what MVP candidates do head-to-head against each other more than a lot of other things.

last year the lakers lost 2 times against the cavs but kobe still won mvp so i dont think it will have any effect.

Lakers09
02-04-2009, 07:08 PM
Lebron is prolly better than Kobe (depends on which aspect of the game is seen as "more important") but Kobe has the supporting cast to earn him the MVP.

You also have to realize that the NBA is a business and i think it will wait for the right time to crown Lebron as MVP so it can earn maximum profit.

NYMetros
02-04-2009, 07:11 PM
last year the lakers lost 2 times against the cavs but kobe still won mvp so i dont think it will have any effect.

Well, obviously.
The Cavs were not that good last year.
Cleveland had about 37 losses last season. This year is a different story. Both teams are neck and neck.

Kenny
02-05-2009, 01:07 PM
you cannot look at one game regardless of what happends.. You have to look at the 82 games as a whole..

MickeyMgl
02-05-2009, 02:19 PM
im not a laker fan but i dont even think both of those players deserve the mvp award as much as wade. if he carries his team to the top 6 or 5 in the east with the heat's currant team i think he should get it.

Well, the precedent from '06 suggests that Wade is not even in the discussion if his team fails to win 50 games, which is likely at this point.

So it's down to Lebron, Kobe, and maybe Howard at this point.

Zefflin
02-05-2009, 03:35 PM
So it's down to Lebron, Kobe, and maybe Howard at this point.

Ding ding ding.

MJ-BULLS
02-05-2009, 10:34 PM
its going to come down to kobe and lebron but howard might be there in the end

Vinny642
02-05-2009, 11:07 PM
Can Cp3 be back in the discussion because without him Hornets are ***

still1ballin
02-06-2009, 12:36 AM
Kobeee!!!!!! for MVP!

Kenny
02-06-2009, 12:39 AM
Kobeee!!!!!! for MVP!

your saying this after tonights performance.. Jeez

still1ballin
02-06-2009, 12:45 AM
your saying this after tonights performance.. Jeez

Yes, he didn't have a great game in the offensive side, but having a cold night and making shots where it counts that brought us back into the game. That is what MVP's do!

Gup
02-06-2009, 01:00 AM
Dirk for MVP haha
obviously LBJ will win it

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2009, 01:02 AM
After tonights game, Pau for MVP!!!! :)

PapelbonLester
02-06-2009, 01:15 AM
The king...lbj

Lakersfan2483
02-06-2009, 01:25 AM
your saying this after tonights performance.. Jeez

Just because the man had an "off" night doesn't disqualify him from the MVP race.... The Lakers were coming off a back to back and still were able to win the game. Kobe had 26 points 10 rebs tonight and hit some big shots to get us back in the game. He also played solid defense at the end of the game....

IRUAM #21
02-06-2009, 01:32 AM
Mbenga for MVP

lakers4sho
02-06-2009, 01:55 AM
Mbenga for MVP

amen to that brotha :up:

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2009, 02:03 AM
Can Cp3 be back in the discussion because without him Hornets are ***

Cp3 is a great player. Best point guard I have seen since Magic. But the team not playing well since he left has a lot to do with the system Byron runs. Its all predicted on what CP3 can do for himself and his teammates. It means if he is ever out for a prolonged period of time, they are really going to suffer because their whole offense is on the shoulders of one man.

The other players are capable of carrying the load, but they have not practiced doing it all year long. The Hornets would be better suited next year to practice the Princeton offense or the triangle, something that would allow other guys to take more responsibility in the teams offense, so that they dont suffer when CP3 is on the bench or hurt.

lakers4sho
02-06-2009, 11:13 AM
Cp3 is a great player. Best point guard I have seen since Magic. But the team not playing well since he left has a lot to do with the system Byron runs. Its all predicted on what CP3 can do for himself and his teammates. It means if he is ever out for a prolonged period of time, they are really going to suffer because their whole offense is on the shoulders of one man.

The other players are capable of carrying the load, but they have not practiced doing it all year long. The Hornets would be better suited next year to practice the Princeton offense or the triangle, something that would allow other guys to take more responsibility in the teams offense, so that they dont suffer when CP3 is on the bench or hurt.

If they DO run princeton or triangle offense, CP's magical numbers would soon diminish :nod:

Chronz
02-06-2009, 05:21 PM
If they DO run princeton or triangle offense, CP's magical numbers would soon diminish :nod:

As would the teams record

The offense is fine, its their lack of depth thats disturbing. Its their own fault for spending the money on Posey instead of the glaring holes in the PF/C and PG rotation.

Vinny642
02-06-2009, 05:55 PM
As would the teams record

The offense is fine, its their lack of depth thats disturbing. Its their own fault for spending the money on Posey instead of the glaring holes in the PF/C and PG rotation.

Posey IMO was a good pickup, Daniels isn't terrible at the backup PG... I wish we still had Pargo though.... i think Armstrong in due time will become a solid backup.

Chronz
02-06-2009, 06:11 PM
Posey IMO was a good pickup, Daniels isn't terrible at the backup PG... I wish we still had Pargo though.... i think Armstrong in due time will become a solid backup.

I dont know who was available or what they couldve gotten but Posey was definitely not what they needed. Tyson and West are the only bigs youve got, and both had a history of injuries, expecting them to stay healthy is not good. Yes Pargo was definitely a bad defection.

lakerboy
02-06-2009, 06:30 PM
Sasha vujacic mvp.

JJ81
02-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Did you see that fadeaway over LeBron from Kobe? One of the highest arcing shots ive seen

cmstophe
02-08-2009, 07:00 PM
As I said after the Orlando game, I think Kobe needs to take MVP spot over LeBron after today. Lebron chokes again in a big game.

nigerianking
02-08-2009, 07:04 PM
i mean...Lebron had a terrible game and still almost had a triple double...his stats are inflated because of the Cavs scheme

Kenny
02-08-2009, 07:07 PM
As I said after the Orlando game, I think Kobe needs to take MVP spot over LeBron after today. Lebron chokes again in a big game.

BIG GAME? Last I checked he scored 45 points in game 7 last year which was a BIG GAME.. Not a regular season game in the middle of the season

cmstophe
02-08-2009, 07:09 PM
BIG GAME? Last I checked he scored 45 points in game 7 last year which was a BIG GAME.. Not a regular season game in the middle of the season

Great to hear we're clinging to stuff from last season. Please dont make excuses for the man.

still1ballin
02-08-2009, 07:11 PM
Lebron is not quite at Kobe's level just yet.

The1ronHorse
02-08-2009, 07:15 PM
Kobe for MVP.

cmstophe
02-08-2009, 07:16 PM
Lebron is not quite at Kobe's level just yet.

Agreed.

EddieB
02-08-2009, 07:29 PM
Kobe 81 points bryant!!!!!!!!!!!!