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reemy
01-17-2009, 08:16 PM
from Dallas for ninth lol, would be great if we could cut that to 4 before all star break.

Hawkeye15
01-17-2009, 08:38 PM
Would be 8.5 if we hadn't collapsed in Dallas. That game pisses me off

WSU Tony
01-17-2009, 08:39 PM
OMG. Are you serious?

IowaAJ
01-17-2009, 10:17 PM
you never know but its still a longshot but I love the fact that were winning games and the way we are getting it done by out hustling teams.

cwilson21
01-17-2009, 10:31 PM
We are playing like a totally different team since the new year. We aren't closing like a book come 4th quarter time, the offense has a flow when both the first and second teams are out, and players that were hardly getting minutes are among our biggest contributors (e.g. Carney). Wouldn't it be like a 9-gamer now if the collapse against DAL didn't happen and the officiating was good against MIA?

tcman2007
01-17-2009, 11:52 PM
We are playing like a totally different team since the new year. We aren't closing like a book come 4th quarter time, the offense has a flow when both the first and second teams are out, and players that were hardly getting minutes are among our biggest contributors (e.g. Carney). Wouldn't it be like a 9-gamer now if the collapse against DAL didn't happen and the officiating was good against MIA?

What an excellent trade that is turning out to be. We get Carney and a first-rounder for a second-rounder. That is a major trade. Even if Carney comes off the bench, that is a great trade.

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 05:14 AM
I came close to making this thread but wasnt going to till we came within 6, but 9.5, lets go baby!!!

good post, optimism!!

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 01:20 PM
Are you guys serious? This is optimism to the greatest degree.

Sport
01-18-2009, 02:06 PM
Are you guys serious? This is optimism to the greatest degree.

Agreed, One and done in the playoffs, or top 3 pick? Ill go the latter.

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Agreed, One and done in the playoffs, or top 3 pick? Ill go the latter.

Apparently your not a true fan for thinking like that..... I can't help but agree with you.

I would prefer to get a few more quality pieces rather than peaking at .500 with sub-par talent only to start another rebuild.....

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 03:39 PM
just not my style to cheer for us to lose, i dont understand how a fan can do that

jwin2005
01-18-2009, 04:04 PM
just not my style to cheer for us to lose, i dont understand how a fan can do that

I agree with you purple. That is a great point... but for the point of view of us who ARE fans and would like for us to rebuild the right way and get the best possible pieces to become a championship caliber team... we have come to the conclusion that being Minnesota (a team that cannot attract superstar free agents) we must be bad for some years to get the top pick. Once we are done with gaining those pieces winning will be great!

I understand your perspective that as a fan we cannot support losing and yes that is completely true. Fans root for their teams to win. It is just that as we contine to rack up the wins this season (BEFORE we are done rebuilding and gaining the right pieces) we are almost just running into a dead end. We are basically going to be a 1st round playoff team for some years and then we will have to do what we did to KG with like Al Jeff and start the rebuilding process all over again.

I can see the discrepency from both perspectives.

howiend
01-18-2009, 04:50 PM
Apparently your not a true fan for thinking like that..... I can't help but agree with you.

I would prefer to get a few more quality pieces rather than peaking at .500 with sub-par talent only to start another rebuild.....

You may prefer this but it is a plan that is impossible to execute. I would have preferred that the wolves had drafted drose and dwight howard.

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 04:59 PM
losing does not assure us a top three pick. rebuilding the right way would be to win.

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 05:16 PM
losing does not assure us a top three pick. rebuilding the right way would be to win.

How are we going to rebuild if we're winning? Having a pick in the 18-25 range isn't a very good way to build a team....

How are we going to get talent with that low of a pick? I suppose we're going to sign Lebron in your book?

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 05:17 PM
losing does not assure us a top three pick. rebuilding the right way would be to win.

How are we going to rebuild if we're winning? Having a pick in the 18-25 range isn't a very good way to build a team....

How are we going to get talent with that low of a pick? I suppose we're going to sign Lebron in your boo k?

Sport
01-18-2009, 05:38 PM
How are we going to rebuild if we're winning? Having a pick in the 18-25 range isn't a very good way to build a team....

How are we going to get talent with that low of a pick? I suppose we're going to sign Lebron in your boo k?

Guess were in the minority Tony.

I dont necessarily want the Wolves to suck, but the NBA draft isnt like the NFL draft, where if you have a pick between 18-25, you can still get a player that will compete right away. I know you have your fair share of busts, but not quite as much as the NBA.

In the NBA, even top 10, or hell top 5 picks dont ever hit the NBA.

But I can agree with PurpleJesus's thinking. Winning games and possibly playin in the playoffs, could do wonders for the young guys on the team.

There is two ways to look at it, and I cant really disagree with neither.

jwin2005
01-18-2009, 05:48 PM
It is almost an impossible argument for one side to win.

I have come to the conclusion that fans just want the team to do the best it can and to win as many games as it can. They do not care about the draft and are content with a team that is trying the best it can (even if it translates to 20-40 wins a season).

The Wolves will be a .500 team with the guys they have and the projected picks they will receive if they keep winning at this rate. But who cares right? We are happy if they just work hard and have a chance to be a 1st round playoff team in a year or two?

Fans do not want to think long term and how to win championships. It is all luck anyways? Luck in the draft as in getting a Lebron type player. Luck as in all the pieces falling right and adding Ray Allen and Garnett with Pierce. Luck as in a high school prospect Kobe turns into the best player in the leage.

GOGOGOMEZ08
01-18-2009, 05:54 PM
How are we going to rebuild if we're winning? Having a pick in the 18-25 range isn't a very good way to build a team....

How are we going to get talent with that low of a pick? I suppose we're going to sign Lebron in your boo k?

I think when you are winning that means that the rebuilding is working. We have the talent, we have been adding pieces that should makes us a good team we just needed to learn to win and we are doing that now. I'm not saying that we are done rebuilding I'm saying how we have been learning to win. When you say how do you rebuild when we're winning, I dont understand what that means. Rebuilding isn't just about getting the best draft picks and hoping they all turn into great players, because if that's the case we are going to be rebuilding and waiting for these kid's to be great players forever.

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 06:32 PM
How are we going to rebuild if we're winning? Having a pick in the 18-25 range isn't a very good way to build a team....

How are we going to get talent with that low of a pick? I suppose we're going to sign Lebron in your boo k?

nope, i dont think we have any chance at lebron

are you really cheering for losses tony? do you get mad when Foye hits a three, or when we win 6 of 7?

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 07:13 PM
nope, i dont think we have any chance at lebron



You didn't answer my question.

How are we to get talent to become better than a one and done playoff team if we're going to be picking in the 15-20 range year in and year out? Do you really want to get back into the KG cycle of a few years ago?

I don't get mad when Foye hits a three. I love seeing guys improve as a team and on an individual basis but I don't think a 5 game winning streak against some of the worst teams in the league is worth moving down in the draft from around #3 to around #7-8.

Many of you are about instant gratification. You have to get past it. Watching us win 5 games in a row isn't nearly as good as a top 3 pick and a possibility for a franchise player that can play here 6-7 years and help us become a DEEP playoff team. You're so concerned about winning games right now, you forget we're built to be a .500 team with the personnel we have right now.

I don't strive for mediocrity and I definitely am not one for instant gratification. Being a business major and understanding investing and the true cost of instant gratification I find it foolish most of the time.

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 07:28 PM
You didn't answer my question.

How are we to get talent to become better than a one and done playoff team if we're going to be picking in the 15-20 range year in and year out? Do you really want to get back into the KG cycle of a few years ago?

I don't get mad when Foye hits a three. I love seeing guys improve as a team and on an individual basis but I don't think a 5 game winning streak against some of the worst teams in the league is worth moving down in the draft from around #3 to around #7-8.

Many of you are about instant gratification. You have to get past it. Watching us win 5 games in a row isn't nearly as good as a top 3 pick and a possibility for a franchise player that can play here 6-7 years and help us become a DEEP playoff team. You're so concerned about winning games right now, you forget we're built to be a .500 team with the personnel we have right now.

I don't strive for mediocrity and I definitely am not one for instant gratification. Being a business major and understanding investing and the true cost of instant gratification I find it foolish most of the time.

k, to answer your question, we develop through the draft, then we further develop the players through winning, winning defines players roles, builds character, and increases moral, therefore making a better team.

Still losing doesnt assure us a top three pick because of the draft.

now answer my question, are you really cheering against the wolves?

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 07:35 PM
You didn't answer my question.

How are we to get talent to become better than a one and done playoff team if we're going to be picking in the 15-20 range year in and year out? Do you really want to get back into the KG cycle of a few years ago?

I don't get mad when Foye hits a three. I love seeing guys improve as a team and on an individual basis but I don't think a 5 game winning streak against some of the worst teams in the league is worth moving down in the draft from around #3 to around #7-8.

Many of you are about instant gratification. You have to get past it. Watching us win 5 games in a row isn't nearly as good as a top 3 pick and a possibility for a franchise player that can play here 6-7 years and help us become a DEEP playoff team. You're so concerned about winning games right now, you forget we're built to be a .500 team with the personnel we have right now.

I don't strive for mediocrity and I definitely am not one for instant gratification. Being a business major and understanding investing and the true cost of instant gratification I find it foolish most of the time.

once again, losing does not asure a top 3 pick, what it does assure is that players become disgruntled, coaches get fired, players get traded, teams are in dissaray. Being a business major you should realise that losers dont win, you want to lose to put all of our marbles in a kid who hasnt played an NBA game yet? There is no KG in this draft, there is no Lebron, there is no Yao, even if there were, we would not be guarenteed one of them regardless of our record.

Preuss-is-right
01-18-2009, 08:44 PM
The lose to win arguement has one major flaw.

Lets say we get 2 or 3 years of top 3 picks. The 1st top 3 pick would be done with his rookie contract by the time the 3rd one came around. IF Minnesota is such a terrible place to play and we cannot attract any free agents then why on earth would this awesome top 3 pick resign with us?

Plus if this player had nothing but 3 years worth of losing it would only make his chances of resigning even less. So if we are playing to lose then this cycle will continue on and on until you get that one rookie who grew up wanting to play for the Wolves and then hopefully the cycle would be disrupted enough.

Playing to lose does no good at all. It causes bad attitudes, bad chemistry, no sense of direction, and is down right illegal.

Lets say for a minute that your losing to win strategy actually does work. Whats going to happen when its a close game and these players are accustomed to losing on purpose? Or if we have a 29 point lead in the 3rd quarter and somehow blow it? Players need to learn how to win together in order to succeed and successful teams are able to attract quality free agents.

IowaAJ
01-18-2009, 08:56 PM
So if some of you want us to tank you really enjoyed that long losing streak we were on at the beginning of the season. Personally winning cures everything because the team is actually happy to play ball. I believe if you root for you team to lose then your a disgrace as a fan to your team just my oppinion.

We are playing the best we have played all year some of us are excited to see the team improving instead of hoping if we lose a lot of games we might get lucky and win the Lottery. I have really enjoyed the winning of 6 out of 7 and yeah we beat some bad teams but at the beginning of the year we were losing to those same teams. We won on the road vs a good Suns team and I am dang proud of the way this team has played the over these past couple of weeks.

They have played their buts off and some of our fans would rather see us lose I just don't get it and I'm not trying to offend anybody but I think we are closer then a lot of people on here think we are. We have two power forwards that we can play together for years to come and Foye is starting to become a stud and Telfair also has improved a lot from last year. Gomes has improved, Carney is playing out of his mind. Now isn't the time to want us to lose. We are finally playing well and some people are unhappy because we won't get a top draft pick potentially.

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 08:59 PM
k, to answer your question, we develop through the draft, then we further develop the players through winning, winning defines players roles, builds character, and increases moral, therefore making a better team.

Still losing doesnt assure us a top three pick because of the draft.

now answer my question, are you really cheering against the wolves?

Develop though the draft? (with a pick between #15 and #20?) That's development? Tell that to KG when we constantly had those picks and got no where.

If your the worst team in the NBA, you get a top 3 pick. ;) It's much harder to move UP a few spots in the draft than it is to move down more than 1 spot.... (:))

Do I cheer against the wolves? No.

Does winning 5 in a row against some of the worst teams in the NBA make me mad that our draft status is slipping? Yes. If we were winning against the top teams in the league things would be different. We are winning against the CRAPPIEST teams in the league..... Not worth it imo.

You guys make it sound like I want the Wolves to tank, that's not the case.

We had a 29 point lead and blew it in the 4th, remember? We did that and we're doing our best to win. I suppose, though, if we did lose for 3-4 seasons and got top talent and then blew that lead you'd blame it on 'tanking the past few seasons and creating a cluture,' right?

I think this 'creating a winning atomosphere' is a load of crap. If you have top talent players you will havea winning atomosphere. If you have mediocre players I dont' care what atmosphere your playing in, you'll be mediocre.

Mediocre built teams (players) mean mediocre records or 1 and done in the playoffs.

The only guys we have that aren't mediocre talent are Foye and Jefferson. Heck, I'd be surprised if love puts up average NBA PF numbers for us.

IowaAJ
01-18-2009, 09:14 PM
I'm not saying you want us to lose Toney but there are some posters that do want us to lose.

reemy
01-18-2009, 09:49 PM
Tony, y r u so negative...The way i see it the team learning how to win is more important than just giving up games.

And it gives us a better chance to sign a great role player if we win more games, like a 3 point specialist or a defensive specialist or even an athletic freak with crazy bunnies.

I dont know what kind of true fans root for their team to lose, i expected this from jwin nah im kidding lol, but i like your view jwin your lookin at it on both sides

Jefferson25
01-18-2009, 09:58 PM
It is almost an impossible argument for one side to win.

I have come to the conclusion that fans just want the team to do the best it can and to win as many games as it can. They do not care about the draft and are content with a team that is trying the best it can (even if it translates to 20-40 wins a season).

The Wolves will be a .500 team with the guys they have and the projected picks they will receive if they keep winning at this rate. But who cares right? We are happy if they just work hard and have a chance to be a 1st round playoff team in a year or two?

Fans do not want to think long term and how to win championships. It is all luck anyways? Luck in the draft as in getting a Lebron type player. Luck as in all the pieces falling right and adding Ray Allen and Garnett with Pierce. Luck as in a high school prospect Kobe turns into the best player in the leage.

You are right on man. Management can only do so much. It is luck in the draft lottery and in a way there is a lot of luck in winning a championship.

Let Minnesota fans be content with Sebastian Telfair, Ryan Gomes, Rodney Carney, and Craig Smith as their future. They will become possibly a 1st round playoff team one day woo hoo! Go Wolves!

WSU Tony
01-18-2009, 10:12 PM
Tony, y r u so negative...The way i see it the team learning how to win is more important than just giving up games.

And it gives us a better chance to sign a great role player if we win more games, like a 3 point specialist or a defensive specialist or even an athletic freak with crazy bunnies.

I dont know what kind of true fans root for their team to lose, i expected this from jwin nah im kidding lol, but i like your view jwin your lookin at it on both sides

Us learning to win against some of the worst teams in the league is worth our pick dropping from around #3 to around #7? Are you serious? What does beating the worst teams in the league prove?

Shouldn't we worry about getting 5 quality starters before we worry about signing a role player? Do you honestly think Telfair, Gomes, or Smith are starters in this league? We already have backups, now we need legit talent for our starting core.


You are right on man. Management can only do so much. It is luck in the draft lottery and in a way there is a lot of luck in winning a championship.

Let Minnesota fans be content with Sebastian Telfair, Ryan Gomes, Rodney Carney, and Craig Smith as their future. They will become possibly a 1st round playoff team one day woo hoo! Go Wolves!

I don't want to half *** this either.

Oefarmy2005
01-18-2009, 10:18 PM
Develop though the draft? (with a pick between #15 and #20?) That's development? Tell that to KG when we constantly had those picks and got no where.

If your the worst team in the NBA, you get a top 3 pick. ;) It's much harder to move UP a few spots in the draft than it is to move down more than 1 spot.... (:))

Do I cheer against the wolves? No.

Does winning 5 in a row against some of the worst teams in the NBA make me mad that our draft status is slipping? Yes. If we were winning against the top teams in the league things would be different. We are winning against the CRAPPIEST teams in the league..... Not worth it imo.

You guys make it sound like I want the Wolves to tank, that's not the case.

We had a 29 point lead and blew it in the 4th, remember? We did that and we're doing our best to win. I suppose, though, if we did lose for 3-4 seasons and got top talent and then blew that lead you'd blame it on 'tanking the past few seasons and creating a cluture,' right?

I think this 'creating a winning atomosphere' is a load of crap. If you have top talent players you will havea winning atomosphere. If you have mediocre players I dont' care what atmosphere your playing in, you'll be mediocre.

Mediocre built teams (players) mean mediocre records or 1 and done in the playoffs.

The only guys we have that aren't mediocre talent are Foye and Jefferson. Heck, I'd be surprised if love puts up average NBA PF numbers for us.

Hey Tony. I just wanted to chime in. I don't get why you and Jwin don't think that you can build with 15-20 picks. People on this forum have given a huge list of great players that went in that range. Us not being to get anyone significant next to KG or even now is not due to the range of picks, we did have the 3 pick last year. We couldn't and possibly will not become a great team do to our front office and ownership drafting the worng people, not because of the draft position. I mean, we drafted Ebi over Howard and McCants over Granger, so what gives you a reason to believe that if we keep loosing and get top 3 picks three or four years in a row they will be good. I honestly doubt the front office's ability to make good decisions come draft time personally.

There was also your comment earlier about how to build in the 1 8-25 range. Well, if our picks are going to fall 18-25 range we are not a rebuilding team anymore. We are a very decent playoff team at that point, so we just add roleplayers or high risk hight reward guys.

reemy
01-18-2009, 10:30 PM
Us learning to win against some of the worst teams in the league is worth our pick dropping from around #3 to around #7? Are you serious? What does beating the worst teams in the league prove?

Shouldn't we worry about getting 5 quality starters before we worry about signing a role player? Do you honestly think Telfair, Gomes, or Smith are starters in this league? We already have backups, now we need legit talent for our starting core.



look at other good teams, do they all have great starters? nope...and you cant only count those players look at our bench

reemy
01-18-2009, 10:34 PM
You guys who are against us winning dont even look at our upcoming cap space, and the chance of Pekovic joining us. I dont believe that he would come over here for a team that constantly picks third in NBA drafts

Sport
01-18-2009, 10:44 PM
Just for the record, Im not against the Wolves winning. Im torn on the whole deal. I see Tony's argument, as well as the rest.

Hawkeye15
01-18-2009, 10:48 PM
Chicago got the # pick last year, Portland the year before them. Being a ****** team does not guarantee you a high pick. Win as many games as possible, the rest will happen.

reemy
01-18-2009, 11:04 PM
Thats wat im saying. who was the last team with the worst record in the league to get the first overall pick?

IowaAJ
01-18-2009, 11:35 PM
Okay how many teams in the NBA have 5 really good starters. Most teams have about 2 or 3 with a couple of role players most the time 2. The Lakers Bynum, Gasol, Kobe not 5 quality starters, Spurs Duncan, Parker, Ginobly only 3 players again, Celtics Garnett, Allen, Pierce, , I think your arguement is not realistic because most teams in the NBA have 1 or 2 superstars with a bunch of role players.

If you say we don't have 5 quality starters then neither do these 3 teams I named above and I could name more. Most teams don't have 5 quality starters.

PurpleJesus
01-18-2009, 11:40 PM
Develop though the draft? (with a pick between #15 and #20?) That's development? Tell that to KG when we constantly had those picks and got no where.


were not talking about pick 15-20 this year, most of the fans here are realistic and know that we will probably finish, with at best, the 10th worst record. And once we are in the lottery, who knows how the balls are gonna bounce?

There is a major flaw with your theory tony, if we ended up with one of three worst records in the NBA, that would mean that we are one of the three worst teams in the NBA, and we would have plenty more problems than just finding a superstar.

Teams that consistently pick in the lottery pick there continually for a reason...Seatle(OKC), Clippers, Washington, Memphis..most of those teams have gotten the chance to draft a so called super-star, but they dont know how to win.

boeknows
01-18-2009, 11:53 PM
OK Tony and Jwin here is a good question for u. Who is the last team to actually have picked in the top 3 a couple years in a row and has actually gone on to win a championship or done anything at all?

WSU Tony
01-19-2009, 01:31 AM
Hey Tony.
There was also your comment earlier about how to build in the 1 8-25 range. Well, if our picks are going to fall 18-25 range we are not a rebuilding team anymore. We are a very decent playoff team at that point, so we just add roleplayers or high risk hight reward guys.

I don't know about you but I don't want to build a team which peaks at that point, do you? That's the point.


look at other good teams, do they all have great starters? nope...and you cant only count those players look at our bench

We have a bench. We have too much of a bench and not enough starters. We start 3 guys who should be coming off the bench almost every night..... and people wonder why our record is so bad. We need legit starters..... which have a higher percentage of coming with a higher pick.


Thats wat im saying. who was the last team with the worst record in the league to get the first overall pick?

They had the BEST chance at the #1 pick, that's all that can be done. You can't honestly tell me that since the Bulls won the lottery (they call it that for a reason) at the #7 spot (or wherever they were) that you'd rather have the 7th worst record compared to the 1st worst record, would you?


Okay how many teams in the NBA have 5 really good starters. Most teams have about 2 or 3 with a couple of role players most the time 2. The Lakers Bynum, Gasol, Kobe not 5 quality starters, Spurs Duncan, Parker, Ginobly only 3 players again, Celtics Garnett, Allen, Pierce, , I think your arguement is not realistic because most teams in the NBA have 1 or 2 superstars with a bunch of role players.

If you say we don't have 5 quality starters then neither do these 3 teams I named above and I could name more. Most teams don't have 5 quality starters.

Those aren't quality starters, they are stars. When I say quality starters I'm talking more of Posey type player (whether he came off the bench last year for the Celtics or not, he was a quality starter) and less of a KG type player.....


were not talking about pick 15-20 this year, most of the fans here are realistic and know that we will probably finish, with at best, the 10th worst record. And once we are in the lottery, who knows how the balls are gonna bounce?
Your right, I'd rather have the 10th worst record with your logic....
There is a major flaw with your theory tony, if we ended up with one of three worst records in the NBA, that would mean that we are one of the three worst teams in the NBA, and we would have plenty more problems than just finding a superstar. We already have those problems.... we only have two legit starters. :speechless: The problem is when we are supposed to be losing to gather high picks to get more starters we are winning some games which makes it much harder to find legit starters though the draft.

Teams that consistently pick in the lottery pick there continually for a reason...Seatle(OKC), Clippers, Washington, Memphis..most of those teams have gotten the chance to draft a so called super-star, but they dont know how to win.

Cleveland:
2004: Pick #10
2003: Pick #1
2002: Pick #6
2001: Pick #8
2000: Pick #8
1999: Pick #8

Through this 6 year period Cleveland aquired 6 top 10 picks and enough value to become the team they are today. It took 2-3 years for this talent to come together into what they are today but what would they be today if they started winning after 2001? Would they have enough talent (value?) to be one of the top 3-4 teams in the NBA today? I can guarantee you without that 2003 pick they would not be where they are today.


OK Tony and Jwin here is a good question for u. Who is the last team to actually have picked in the top 3 a couple years in a row and has actually gone on to win a championship or done anything at all?

Cleveland did pretty well building, huh? Then again they weren't a .500 team (like we're built to be right now). They were a BAD team for 6 years and got enough talent to be where they are today. If they started winning after 2001 and didn't have those three other top 10 picks they would be no where close to as good as they are now, get it?


Be a bad team for 4-5 years, get the talent, THEN start winning. If you start winning after 2 years of rebuilding you'll only be good enough for a .500 team.

Luckily we made that trade for Al and had Foye already so this rebuilding process shouldn't take 6 years imo, more like 3-4 if we do it right.

Winning too early in the rebuilding process causes you to become a .500 team only to rebuild again.

PurpleJesus
01-19-2009, 01:46 AM
who says we are built to be a .500 team? Maybe with the players we have right now we are, but we still have an unusual amount of draft picks coming our way, and an unusual amount of cap space coming our way. Bottom line is, losing is never a good idea, winning makes winners, losing makes losers.

cwilson21
01-19-2009, 01:47 AM
I don't pay for the NBA ticket to watch my team lose.

jwin2005
01-19-2009, 01:54 AM
Well not many fans show up to the games anymore anyways. This argument is dead. I think most people would argue to just let the Wolves try to win and everything will fall into place (cough cough).

I don't care if we have all the cap space in the world... no one wants to play here. Our draft picks mean nothing if they are all late 1st round. We are just going to accumulate more role players.

Everyone should just be happy. Life is a gift. Let us not get overworked about this team... we will just be dissapointed at the end of the day.

Preuss-is-right
01-19-2009, 01:57 AM
Cleveland:
2004: Pick #10
2003: Pick #1
2002: Pick #6
2001: Pick #8
2000: Pick #8
1999: Pick #8

Through this 6 year period Cleveland aquired 6 top 10 picks and enough value to become the team they are today. It took 2-3 years for this talent to come together into what they are today but what would they be today if they started winning after 2001? Would they have enough talent (value?) to be one of the top 3-4 teams in the NBA today? I can guarantee you without that 2003 pick they would not be where they are today.



Cleveland did pretty well building, huh? Then again they weren't a .500 team (like we're built to be right now). They were a BAD team for 6 years and got enough talent to be where they are today. If they started winning after 2001 and didn't have those three other top 10 picks they would be no where close to as good as they are now, get it?


Be a bad team for 4-5 years, get the talent, THEN start winning. If you start winning after 2 years of rebuilding you'll only be good enough for a .500 team.

Luckily we made that trade for Al and had Foye already so this rebuilding process shouldn't take 6 years imo, more like 3-4 if we do it right.

Winning too early in the rebuilding process causes you to become a .500 team only to rebuild again.

Lets see who still plays for Cleveland out of that 6 year period.
99 - Andre Miller
00 - Jamal Crawford
01 - Desagna Diop
02 - Dejuan Wagner
03 - Lebron James
04 - Luke Jackson


1 player. Hmmmmm.:eyebrow:

WSU Tony
01-19-2009, 01:58 AM
I don't pay for the NBA ticket to watch my team lose.

Then you had better pick games that we play bad teams. :)


who says we are built to be a .500 team? Maybe with the players we have right now we are, but we still have an unusual amount of draft picks coming our way, and an unusual amount of cap space coming our way. Bottom line is, losing is never a good idea, winning makes winners, losing makes losers.

As of right now, yes, we are built to be a .500 team. We have 4 picks in an unusually weak draft this year. If Rubio and Holiday don't come out this could be one of the weakest drafts in years.

Winning with sub par talent during a rebuilding time doesn't make winners, it makes a team with less potential.

In four years from now would you rather have Telfair or Rubio? Does Carney fit our bill for the SF of the future or is Aminu a better option? Telfair winning against a really crappy team NOW means not having Rubio winning against championship quality teams LATER. It's all about instant gratification.

Preuss-is-right
01-19-2009, 02:59 AM
We'll probably stay right where we are in the standings. 7th worst isnt that bad.

jwin2005
01-19-2009, 03:07 AM
hey twolves4ever

How is your other site doing? sorry i never made it over there. I just like this site too much.

Everyone is going to say you are not a Twolves fan since you want them to keep their top 10 protected pick from the Clippers... it apparently makes you an awful fan for being forward looking and analyzing the Wolves future.

Preuss-is-right
01-19-2009, 03:08 AM
What if the future is now?

reemy
01-19-2009, 03:29 AM
One question Tony, how many years do you think we have left to lose our games for better draft picks?

PurpleJesus
01-19-2009, 03:51 AM
hey twolves4ever

How is your other site doing? sorry i never made it over there. I just like this site too much.

Everyone is going to say you are not a Twolves fan since you want them to keep their top 10 protected pick from the Clippers... it apparently makes you an awful fan for being forward looking and analyzing the Wolves future.

i dont think anyone doubts the fans who post on this sites loyalty, this site has what, 10 wolves fans, obviously we all speak with passion about the future of our team, so no, i dont doubt your fanhood, or tony's or t-wolves4ever, i just dont understand how you would want your team to lose. And to Tony, its way to early to call a draft weak, last years draft was considered to be weak, and now in its early stages, it looks like it was one of the deepest drafts to date. By the way, nothing assures us Rubio or Jennings or Griffin anyway, win while you can, if Foye and Jefferson play the way they have been, maybe the future is now. I am one fan who thinks we should build around Jefferson, and i think we do have the guy that the minority of the people posting in here think we have to find in the draft.

Also, if you think this draft is weak, then why should we fail in the regular season to get a top three pick, there is no lebron in this draft, so why dont you guys who think we should tank now wait till we have a winning team, and there is a lebron available to tank.

One team who did build the way we are building is doing quite well, that team is Atlanta, name their superstar.

robbieseay03
01-19-2009, 04:12 AM
It's important to get rid of the losing culture. That's why franchises like the Detroit Lions, Pittsburgh Pirates, Clippers all lose. The Clippers of 90s had some great talent, always in the top 10 of the draft, but had only playoff appearance to show for it.

It is MUCH more important for the young guys that we have to believe in themselves and develope confidence then to hope we win the lottery.

Also, now that we have started to win. Look at the players blossoming. Foye is turning into a stud, and will hopefully close the gap with Roy. Telfair is playing great. We got a steal for Carney. Smith is playing great, and he was a 2nd round pick. With the deal having Jaric leave, we will be able to have the money to sign free agents and compete in the Western Conference.

Winning breeds winning.

PurpleJesus
01-19-2009, 04:23 AM
Winning breeds winning.

:clap:

Hawkeye15
01-19-2009, 12:37 PM
It's important to get rid of the losing culture. That's why franchises like the Detroit Lions, Pittsburgh Pirates, Clippers all lose. The Clippers of 90s had some great talent, always in the top 10 of the draft, but had only playoff appearance to show for it.

It is MUCH more important for the young guys that we have to believe in themselves and develope confidence then to hope we win the lottery.

Also, now that we have started to win. Look at the players blossoming. Foye is turning into a stud, and will hopefully close the gap with Roy. Telfair is playing great. We got a steal for Carney. Smith is playing great, and he was a 2nd round pick. With the deal having Jaric leave, we will be able to have the money to sign free agents and compete in the Western Conference.

Winning breeds winning.

ex-frickin-actly. That has been my point all along. Hoping and praying on a kid to become your savior is stupid. There are no LeBron's in this draft.

cwilson21
01-19-2009, 12:57 PM
Every year since LeBron's class I always hear people say, "this draft class is weak". You can't call a draft class weak until you see how they perform on an NBA roster.

thesparky33
01-19-2009, 02:15 PM
Yeah, I think we win as many games as possible. Winning and losing are contagious... I dont understand how anyone would want their team to lose just to get better draft position. I think there are certain situations. I think when it is the end of March, and there are 10 games left, and there is a certain player you really think helps your club, and you have no shot at the playoffs, then its probably not a bad decision to rest Jefferson who has been going all-out all season, and it probably would be appreciated by him too. But when the season is not even half over, why are we even talking about tanking? I HATE to see the Wolves lose. I'd rather watch 10 years of us winning 50+ games per year, making the playoffs, and never winning the championship than watch us only win 30-ish games for 9 seasons and then hit the jackpot, and see us win a championship for one season.

WSU Tony
01-19-2009, 03:34 PM
Yeah, I think we win as many games as possible. Winning and losing are contagious... I dont understand how anyone would want their team to lose just to get better draft position. I think there are certain situations. I think when it is the end of March, and there are 10 games left, and there is a certain player you really think helps your club, and you have no shot at the playoffs, then its probably not a bad decision to rest Jefferson who has been going all-out all season, and it probably would be appreciated by him too. But when the season is not even half over, why are we even talking about tanking? I HATE to see the Wolves lose. I'd rather watch 10 years of us winning 50+ games per year, making the playoffs, and never winning the championship than watch us only win 30-ish games for 9 seasons and then hit the jackpot, and see us win a championship for one season.

With the talent we have on our roster, right now, I fear we are a 35-45 win per year team when the talent matures. If you'd rather lose our pick this year and not add any top talent and continue this flawed 'half assed' rebuilding program then have at it. When you only have 5 guys on the court at a time I'd opt for quality talent 7-8 deep rather than mediocre talent 15-18 deep. Lets face it, more of these guys - McCants, Gomes, Telfair, Carney, Brewer, and Smith - are role players. We might have 1 of them emerge as a legit starter but the rest will all be bench players.

Why do we want a worse pick to add more depth for our bench? We don't need any more bench players. We need legit starters (Mayo) at this point.

Like I've been saying for months, quality > quantity for the wolves.

GOGOGOMEZ08
01-19-2009, 03:50 PM
With the talent we have on our roster, right now, I fear we are a 35-45 win per year team when the talent matures. If you'd rather lose our pick this year and not add any top talent and continue this flawed 'half assed' rebuilding program then have at it. When you only have 5 guys on the court at a time I'd opt for quality talent 7-8 deep rather than mediocre talent 15-18 deep. Lets face it, more of these guys - McCants, Gomes, Telfair, Carney, Brewer, and Smith - are role players. We might have 1 of them emerge as a legit starter but the rest will all be bench players.

Why do we want a worse pick to add more depth for our bench? We don't need any more bench players. We need legit starters (Mayo) at this point.

Like I've been saying for months, quality > quantity for the wolves.
Ok Look at Brewer and McCants what were they, studs in college who we thought would rebuild our franchise. Well that could happen again were we get these draft picks who dont pan out and then we are stuck drafting players who never develop into great players.

TMBRWLVS9
01-19-2009, 04:25 PM
for those who think its not important to win...
I used to think the same ...at some point, ok..lets dump these games at the end of the year, but with the resources we are going to have in the next few years to sign free agents, we want to look as desirable as possible to these guys. It's going to be extremely hard to sign some of these guys to begin with, but HYPOTHETICALLY speaking, if Im Bosh, or Wade, or Dirk, or dare I say LBJ..why would I go to a perennial loser over a team that looks like they are on the cusp of something special. The difference between 25 and 35 wins can go a looooooong way. Especially in today's age of image is everything. No player wants to be labeled as the "I went there for the money" guy.
Besides..what has a higher draft pick ever done for us anyway. We never get slotted where we are supposed to in the lottery, and we end up with poop 90% of the time. Let the chips fall where they may. What's meant to be is meant to be. If the Arizona Cardinals can play in a Super Bowl..heck..you get the point.

howiend
01-19-2009, 04:49 PM
With the talent we have on our roster, right now, I fear we are a 35-45 win per year team when the talent matures. If you'd rather lose our pick this year and not add any top talent and continue this flawed 'half assed' rebuilding program then have at it. When you only have 5 guys on the court at a time I'd opt for quality talent 7-8 deep rather than mediocre talent 15-18 deep. Lets face it, more of these guys - McCants, Gomes, Telfair, Carney, Brewer, and Smith - are role players. We might have 1 of them emerge as a legit starter but the rest will all be bench players.

Why do we want a worse pick to add more depth for our bench? We don't need any more bench players. We need legit starters (Mayo) at this point.

Like I've been saying for months, quality > quantity for the wolves.

Tony, I totally agree quality > quantity. In basketball that is definitely the key with only 5 guys on the court. I may have missed it but how do you propose the wolves do this? Stop playing foye or carney now that they are hot. keep whitman as a coach couple of more years? Play al jeff for 20 minutes a game? Mystery injuries to your best players? Play Madsen and McCants 40 minutes a game? I get your point but how do you accomplish it?

WSU Tony
01-19-2009, 05:33 PM
for those who think its not important to win...
I used to think the same ...at some point, ok..lets dump these games at the end of the year, but with the resources we are going to have in the next few years to sign free agents, we want to look as desirable as possible to these guys. It's going to be extremely hard to sign some of these guys to begin with, but HYPOTHETICALLY speaking, if Im Bosh, or Wade, or Dirk, or dare I say LBJ..why would I go to a perennial loser over a team that looks like they are on the cusp of something special. The difference between 25 and 35 wins can go a looooooong way. Especially in today's age of image is everything. No player wants to be labeled as the "I went there for the money" guy.
Besides..what has a higher draft pick ever done for us anyway. We never get slotted where we are supposed to in the lottery, and we end up with poop 90% of the time. Let the chips fall where they may. What's meant to be is meant to be. If the Arizona Cardinals can play in a Super Bowl..heck..you get the point.

The difference between 5-10 wins won't be drawing a big ticket FA to Minnesota, it will be strictly money.

thesparky33
01-19-2009, 07:28 PM
Well, Tony, I think with you thinking that our ceiling for this current team is the 35-45 win mark, that's where I disagree with you.

I think we have a good shot of winning 30+ this year if we keep up playing the way we are... maybe even the 35 wins that I predicted at the beginning of the season.

When Brewer gets a couple more years under his belt, Foye becomes more comfortable as the 2nd banana to Jefferson (which is already happening... he's averaging 20ppg in 2009), and when Love starts to really develop... watch out. Jefferson at the age of 23 is already dominating every defensive scheme out there thrown at him. We're starting to see how good a team could be when we surround decent players around him... just see when those guys become veterans.

Our starting lineup consists of nobody over the age of 26, with Gomes being the oldest at 26. Telfair is 23, Foye 24?, Gomes 26, Smith 24-25?, and Big Al 23.

I dont know, I just really hope this is the year we give the Clippers our draft pick.

cwilson21
01-19-2009, 07:43 PM
I agree with getting rid of our pick this year to the Clips as well. Get that monkey off our back.

jwin2005
01-19-2009, 09:12 PM
Yes lets settle with these guys... they are great! Apparently their ceiling is a playoff team for the next 6-8 years...

PurpleJesus
01-19-2009, 09:15 PM
Yes lets settle with these guys... they are great! Apparently their ceiling is a playoff team for the next 6-8 years...

yes, lose the rest of our games on purpose, brilliant!! 11 wins in the last 13 games, players learning each other and their roles, draft picks coming our way, and cap space coming our way. Did i mention 11 wins in the last 13 games?

jwin2005
01-19-2009, 09:23 PM
yes, lose the rest of our games on purpose, brilliant!! 11 wins in the last 13 games, players learning each other and their roles, draft picks coming our way, and cap space coming our way. Did i mention 11 wins in the last 13 games?

purple, why didnt you mention that if we lose our pick to the clippers we will be left with Miami's pick which is 22 or worst and Boston's which is the second to last or last pick. We will not get Utah's. So we basically have two late first round picks! Woohoo low ceiling bench players!

I am not saying lose to just lose. I am just telling you what will happen going forward. We will not get any more talent through this draft. We will not get any star free agent. We will grow with this team which will eventually in a couple years be a first round playoff team! Yes! I cant wait for more KG years ahead of us!

PurpleJesus
01-19-2009, 09:30 PM
you can predict the future JWin? i didnt realize, i thought we had some good pieces, but since you saw us losing in the first round, i am now on the tank bandwagon.

Hawkeye15
01-19-2009, 09:56 PM
if you want your team to lose, something is wrong with you. It is like 1+1=2. That simple. Justify it however you like.

Hawkeye15
01-19-2009, 10:00 PM
If Minnesota is such a pathetic place to bring in free agents, then Glen is better off selling the team. Otherwise, having a team who wins 35-40 games in a season, with space to sign a couple key parts, is, and should be attractive to players we need and want. If they are concerned with money, let them go somewhere else. Winning raises eyebrows. Did Minnesota do a bad job of drafting, and sign stupid deals in the past? Yes. But that doesn't mean they may not have learned from their mistakes, and will put a contender on the floor in the next 4 years. Look at what we have done. Sure, we resigned a lot of players, but at short deals, with low money for flexibility. We aren't going with the Hudson deals anymore. ANd we aren't getting KG in the draft, there have only been 20 of them ever. Building thru the draft is nice, but you need terrific scouts, and pure luck, which we have neither of to this point.

WSU Tony
01-19-2009, 10:09 PM
I think we have a bunch of people wearing rose colored glasses here.

I continue to question how you guys think we're a future playoff team when we only have 2 legit starters on our team.

Preuss-is-right
01-19-2009, 11:59 PM
We already had the "legit starter" arguement too. Dont you guys get tired and frustrated bickering about the same thing all the time? :horse: Leave the poor horse alone!!

IowaAJ
01-20-2009, 12:08 AM
Wow Pruess that is pretty funny.

PurpleJesus
01-20-2009, 12:16 AM
-

jwin2005
01-20-2009, 12:21 AM
Wolves beat another bad team. Great!

PurpleJesus
01-20-2009, 12:26 AM
hahaha, nice sig, your the most sarcastic internet poster I have ever seen

jwin2005
01-20-2009, 12:28 AM
It is hard to see us losing our pick to the Clippers... it will really hurt I think

PurpleJesus
01-20-2009, 12:30 AM
I think we have a bunch of people wearing rose colored glasses here.

I continue to question how you guys think we're a future playoff team when we only have 2 legit starters on our team.

Jefferson and Foye are the two I am assuming are the legitimate ones? Ho wis Gomes not legit, and don't you think Love will becom legit?

I think your idea of 5 legit starters is that they all have to be stars. You could make an argument that we need a star on this team, and I would possibly agree with that.

Name a couple teams that in your mind have 5 legit starters.

PurpleJesus
01-20-2009, 12:32 AM
I think this can sum up this whole argument

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

robbieseay03
01-20-2009, 12:37 AM
Yes, the past couple of years we only have had 2 legit starters. Instead of hoping for them to lose and ruin the confidence of every player on the team, hope for someone to pull a Denard Span and turn into a legit starter out of nowhere with a team that learns how to win. Which develops confidence.
Then with our possible 4 draft picks, and free agency we can get a couple more legit starters to go with our very good bench.
Timberwolves are close.

jwin2005
01-20-2009, 12:38 AM
That is a great video. Thanks for posting that. But there will always be that little voice in the back of your head (especially if you own the team or in the front office) that if your team just gave up those extra wins to the bad teams and got that top 5 pick and that player could help turn your franchise around.

But overall great video on detailing what sports is all about. Winning.

PurpleJesus
01-20-2009, 12:39 AM
It is hard to see us losing our pick to the Clippers... it will really hurt I think

I kind of agree with that, if we finished with like the 11th worst record and had to give away a pick because we had one or two more wins than a different team, i would be kinda sore on draft day, however, if we dont give it to them this year we will have to give it to them next year, we are gonna lose a pick to them sooner or later.

PurpleJesus
01-20-2009, 12:40 AM
sports is all about Winning.

agreed

boeknows
01-20-2009, 02:49 AM
Cleveland did pretty well building, huh? Then again they weren't a .500 team (like we're built to be right now). They were a BAD team for 6 years and got enough talent to be where they are today. If they started winning after 2001 and didn't have those three other top 10 picks they would be no where close to as good as they are now, get it?


Be a bad team for 4-5 years, get the talent, THEN start winning. If you start winning after 2 years of rebuilding you'll only be good enough for a .500 team.

Luckily we made that trade for Al and had Foye already so this rebuilding process shouldn't take 6 years imo, more like 3-4 if we do it right.

Winning too early in the rebuilding process causes you to become a .500 team only to rebuild again.

So Cleveland had a top 3 one year and a couple top 10 picks. So if we win a couple games who says thats going to make us have a pick outside the top 10. Most of those picks were #8. So whats to say that we can still win some games and still have a top 10 pick. But u still didnt answer my question that i asked. Who has had a couple top 3 picks in a row that has won a championship?

thesparky33
01-20-2009, 03:05 AM
Tony, I'm seeing you post a lot about "legit starters", and how we only have 2 of them. What is the criteria to be considered a legit starter, and how do you evaluate that? Just curious, cuz if someone were to ask how many guys we had on our team that were "starting quality", I'd say we have 4 guys who are starting quality no doubt, and 2 others who I think would start on many other teams in the league, so I'd say we have 6 guys who are starting quality (Jefferson, Miller, Foye, Love, and possibly Gomes and Telfair).

Preuss-is-right
01-20-2009, 03:12 AM
So Cleveland had a top 3 one year and a couple top 10 picks. So if we win a couple games who says thats going to make us have a pick outside the top 10. Most of those picks were #8. So whats to say that we can still win some games and still have a top 10 pick. But u still didnt answer my question that i asked. Who has had a couple top 3 picks in a row that has won a championship?

I also crushed his "Cleveland had 6 top 10 picks and now they're awesome" arguement and am awaiting a rebuttal.

reemy
01-20-2009, 03:58 AM
I got good news and bad news, bad news is were now 10 games out of ninth place, good news is were also 10 games out of 7th and 8th...:)



oh yea sum more good news is that i just saved a bunch of money by switching to geico

WSU Tony
01-20-2009, 12:07 PM
So Cleveland had a top 3 one year and a couple top 10 picks. So if we win a couple games who says thats going to make us have a pick outside the top 10. Most of those picks were #8. So whats to say that we can still win some games and still have a top 10 pick. But u still didnt answer my question that i asked. Who has had a couple top 3 picks in a row that has won a championship?

What was the ONE pick which helped them build out of a lottery selection? I think we both know the answer. It wasn't a #8-10 pick, was it......:p

It's more about having a higher percentage at a franchise player with a top 3 pick. Top 10 picks are good but top 3 picks are great. Heck, if we keep winning we won't even have a top 10 pick, how can that be what you want? We are rebuilding and you want to give our top 10 pick away, I don't understand.


Tony, I'm seeing you post a lot about "legit starters", and how we only have 2 of them. What is the criteria to be considered a legit starter, and how do you evaluate that? Just curious, cuz if someone were to ask how many guys we had on our team that were "starting quality", I'd say we have 4 guys who are starting quality no doubt, and 2 others who I think would start on many other teams in the league, so I'd say we have 6 guys who are starting quality (Jefferson, Miller, Foye, Love, and possibly Gomes and Telfair).

Having above average league production at a given position.




I also crushed his "Cleveland had 6 top 10 picks and now they're awesome" arguement and am awaiting a rebuttal.

Oh, I forgot your rock solid argument, sorry.


We already had the "legit starter" arguement too. Dont you guys get tired and frustrated bickering about the same thing all the time? :horse: Leave the poor horse alone!!

:laugh:


Above average league production = legit starter. If I saw us under performing at postions when our guys have very high ceilings it would be completely different. I see McCants who can't play defense, Telfair having obvious shooting/defensive problems (low ceiling), Gomes who could turn into a starter but I don't see a high ceiling on this guy either. Love could be solid but I don't see anything better than 15/12 average numbers which for a PF aren't strong at all. Brewer has a solid ceiling on him but he needs to add weight and find a jump shot. This leaves us with Foye and Jefferson as our two legit starters. (I know you guys hate when I say that)

thesparky33
01-20-2009, 02:26 PM
Above average league production = legit starter. If I saw us under performing at postions when our guys have very high ceilings it would be completely different. I see McCants who can't play defense, Telfair having obvious shooting/defensive problems (low ceiling), Gomes who could turn into a starter but I don't see a high ceiling on this guy either. Love could be solid but I don't see anything better than 15/12 average numbers which for a PF aren't strong at all. Brewer has a solid ceiling on him but he needs to add weight and find a jump shot. This leaves us with Foye and Jefferson as our two legit starters. (I know you guys hate when I say that)
WTF... 15 and 12 would be all-star caliber numbers for a winning ball club. I can't name off the top of my head, but I could find at least 2-3 all-stars in the last 5 or so years that have had stats no better than that, and you're trying to say it wouldnt be "strong" stats? I'm kind of confused as to what you're expectations are...

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 03:07 PM
this argument is tiresome. There is not one single argument that makes sense to me that says we should lose. And wsu, and jwin (big surprise there), beg to differ. Oh well. Why don't we all just get over it and support the team anyway you think you can, whether that is for them to lose (****ed up) or not

WSU Tony
01-20-2009, 03:40 PM
WTF... 15 and 12 would be all-star caliber numbers for a winning ball club. I can't name off the top of my head, but I could find at least 2-3 all-stars in the last 5 or so years that have had stats no better than that, and you're trying to say it wouldnt be "strong" stats? I'm kind of confused as to what you're expectations are...


All stars and best players are very diferent. Jefferson had 21/11 last year but that wasn't good enough. IF Love becomes a 15/12 guy (best case scinario in my mind) here are the other PF last year.

KG 22/12
Dirk 25/?
Gasol 20/12
Duncan 20/12
Boozer 21/12
Bosh 23/10
Jefferson 21/11

Mystery player 15/12.

I expect a top 5 pick to crack the top 10 best at his position, those are my expectations.

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 04:27 PM
All stars and best players are very diferent. Jefferson had 21/11 last year but that wasn't good enough. IF Love becomes a 15/12 guy (best case scinario in my mind) here are the other PF last year.

KG 22/12
Dirk 25/?
Gasol 20/12
Duncan 20/12
Boozer 21/12
Bosh 23/10
Jefferson 21/11

Mystery player 15/12.

I expect a top 5 pick to crack the top 10 best at his position, those are my expectations.

you can expect that all you want, it doesn't happen at the rate you probably think it does.

Greg Oden
Mike Conley
Jeff Green
Bargnani
Morrison
Tyrus Thomas
Shelden Williams
Marvin Williams
Raymond Felton
Okafor
Ben Gordon
Shaun Livingston
Darko
Jay Williams
Mike Dunleavy
Drew Gooden
Nikoloz Tskitishvili
Kwame Brown
Tyson Chandler
Eddy Curry

that excludes 2008, it is too soon, and only goes back to 2001. That is 20/35 all top 5 picks, there are a few more, I didn't feel like researching borderline top 10 at their position players like Jason Richardson, that are nowhere near top 10 at their respective positions. So praying on the draft doesn't work. Never has, never will. How many lottery picks does Atlanta have on its team right now? 8? 9? Look at them. Unfortunatley, Pritchard only works for 1 team

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 04:40 PM
top 25 in efficiancy

1 LeBron James , CLE
2 Chris Paul , NOH
3 Dwyane Wade , MIA
4 Dwight Howard , ORL
5 Carlos Boozer , UTA ---not top 5 pick
6 Chris Bosh , TOR
7 Dirk Nowitzki , DAL --not top 5 pick
8 Tim Duncan , SAS --not top 5 pick
9 Kobe Bryant , LAL --not top 5 pick
10 Marcus Camby , LAC --not top 5 pick
11 Al Jefferson , MIN --not top 5 pick
12 Pau Gasol , LAL
13 Amar'e Stoudemire --not top 5 pick
14 Ming Yao , HOU
15 Danny Granger --not top 5 pick
16 Zach Randolph
17 Andris Biedrins --not top 5 pick
18 David Lee , NYK --not top 5 pick
19 Kevin Garnett , BOS
20 Brandon Roy , POR --not top 5 pick
21 Antawn Jamison , WAS -not top 5 pick
22 Shaquille O'Neal , PHX
23 Kevin Durant , OKC
24 Devin Harris , NJN
25 Paul Millsap , UTA --not top 5 pick

WSU Tony
01-20-2009, 05:30 PM
Duncan was a #1 overall pick, fyi.

If you would compare the #1-5 picks with the #5-10 picks your comparison might actually mean something. Are you really comparing the #1-5 picks with ALL THE REST of the picks in the draft? Comparing 5 picks per draft with the other 55 picks doesn't mean a thing. Statistical anomalies can become falsified information when the comparisons are as unbalanced as you make them. What your info doesn't tell you is that a top 5 pick yields a MUCH higher % at finding a star than picks 6-60.

I expect top 5 picks to at least have a CEILING in the top 10 at their position. That may be alot to ask for but after all, they are a top 5 pick.

kambion
01-20-2009, 05:41 PM
Would be 8.5 if we hadn't collapsed in Dallas. That game pisses me off

pissed them off too (thankfully) they havent looked back since!

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 07:35 PM
Duncan was a #1 overall pick, fyi.

If you would compare the #1-5 picks with the #5-10 picks your comparison might actually mean something. Are you really comparing the #1-5 picks with ALL THE REST of the picks in the draft? Comparing 5 picks per draft with the other 55 picks doesn't mean a thing. Statistical anomalies can become falsified information when the comparisons are as unbalanced as you make them. What your info doesn't tell you is that a top 5 pick yields a MUCH higher % at finding a star than picks 6-60.

I expect top 5 picks to at least have a CEILING in the top 10 at their position. That may be alot to ask for but after all, they are a top 5 pick.

my bad on the Duncan. But I am telling you that having to have a top 5 pick is ridiculous. Just ridiculous. I don't have time to sort every player drafted in the last 10 years dude. My point is, the Minnesota Timberwolves are not good drafters. Take that back, we draft great, then trade them away. I am not, as a fan, going to depend on the draft one minute longer. Plus, as you can clearly see, more than 60% of the top 5 picks amount to nothing more than a role player, at best. You were the one that pulled stats, with your top 10 in position category. I don't believe in stats at all. You and I will forever disagree on this. If you want to be the Hawks, lets go with your theory. Their best player was signed as a free agent. They have had 5-8 lottery picks in the last 5-8 years. I would rather build confidence in our young guys. Remember how long it took Billups to become an all star, I see Foye fitting his mold. Jefferson is already a stud. I refuse to depend on Derozan, or Thabeet, who will both in my opinion, be below average NBA players. Outside Griffin (who, do we need? Another 6'8" big man), or maybe Rubio, I don't see potential in any of the players in the draft. That being said, there is always that guy in the teens and the twenties that was picked, who blossoms. We need to luck out and get that guy for once, not keep pumping losses and drafting busts, which we are so f'ing good at doing.

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 07:38 PM
one more thing, with college basketball so pathetic now, because nobody good hangs around, do you really feel comfortable judging pro potential from the current competition, knowing that all the programs list their height a good 2" more? Its not like back in the day, when the good players stayed, and it meant something. Look at Hansborough. National player of the year, dominates. He will be a 9th man in the NBA.

WSU Tony
01-20-2009, 08:01 PM
my bad on the Duncan. But I am telling you that having to have a top 5 pick is ridiculous. Just ridiculous. I don't have time to sort every player drafted in the last 10 years dude. My point is, the Minnesota Timberwolves are not good drafters. Take that back, we draft great, then trade them away. I am not, as a fan, going to depend on the draft one minute longer. Plus, as you can clearly see, more than 60% of the top 5 picks amount to nothing more than a role player, at best. You were the one that pulled stats, with your top 10 in position category. I don't believe in stats at all. You and I will forever disagree on this. If you want to be the Hawks, lets go with your theory. Their best player was signed as a free agent. They have had 5-8 lottery picks in the last 5-8 years. I would rather build confidence in our young guys. Remember how long it took Billups to become an all star, I see Foye fitting his mold. Jefferson is already a stud. I refuse to depend on Derozan, or Thabeet, who will both in my opinion, be below average NBA players. Outside Griffin (who, do we need? Another 6'8" big man), or maybe Rubio, I don't see potential in any of the players in the draft. That being said, there is always that guy in the teens and the twenties that was picked, who blossoms. We need to luck out and get that guy for once, not keep pumping losses and drafting busts, which we are so f'ing good at doing.

I hear your argument through and through. I dissagree with you on many points but at least your pleading your case. I like that you can be respectful and not get down and dirty with swearing or personal comments. Hats off.

BTW- Foye isn't any better than last year or the year before. ;)

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 08:51 PM
I hear your argument through and through. I dissagree with you on many points but at least your pleading your case. I like that you can be respectful and not get down and dirty with swearing or personal comments. Hats off.

BTW- Foye isn't any better than last year or the year before. ;)

this is a Wolves forum, while I may disagree with you, you at least root for my team, so I would never jump you. Which is stupid and immature anyways.
Foye is much better than the last couple of years. He started slow, but has come on big time the last 15-20 games. And he has won 3 of our streak games with huge defensive plays. I see him being a 19-5 player next season. I think the Billups comparison is right on. My opinion, of course

WSU Tony
01-20-2009, 08:58 PM
this is a Wolves forum, while I may disagree with you, you at least root for my team, so I would never jump you. Which is stupid and immature anyways.
Foye is much better than the last couple of years. He started slow, but has come on big time the last 15-20 games. And he has won 3 of our streak games with huge defensive plays. I see him being a 19-5 player next season. I think the Billups comparison is right on. My opinion, of course

I would be happy with Billups. :) If he didn't start out so slow he would have those stats THIS year.

Hawkeye15
01-20-2009, 09:10 PM
I would be happy with Billups. :) If he didn't start out so slow he would have those stats THIS year.

well, they finally stopped pretending he was a point guard. Thank god. But that means that we needs some length at the other 2 wing positions to cover him in the future.

boeknows
01-21-2009, 02:15 AM
All stars and best players are very diferent. Jefferson had 21/11 last year but that wasn't good enough. IF Love becomes a 15/12 guy (best case scinario in my mind) here are the other PF last year.

KG 22/12
Dirk 25/?
Gasol 20/12
Duncan 20/12
Boozer 21/12
Bosh 23/10
Jefferson 21/11

Mystery player 15/12.

I expect a top 5 pick to crack the top 10 best at his position, those are my expectations.


I love how u expect Love to average a double double and right now there are only 9 guys in the league that average a double double in rebs and points. So that makes him the 10th guy to do that. I would go for that.

WSU Tony
01-21-2009, 10:12 AM
I love how u expect Love to average a double double and right now there are only 9 guys in the league that average a double double in rebs and points. So that makes him the 10th guy to do that. I would go for that.

Those were ONLY PF. ;)

thesparky33
01-21-2009, 04:16 PM
All stars and best players are very diferent. Jefferson had 21/11 last year but that wasn't good enough. IF Love becomes a 15/12 guy (best case scinario in my mind) here are the other PF last year.

KG 22/12
Dirk 25/?
Gasol 20/12
Duncan 20/12
Boozer 21/12
Bosh 23/10
Jefferson 21/11

Mystery player 15/12.

I expect a top 5 pick to crack the top 10 best at his position, those are my expectations.
With big men, those expectations are ridiculous. If you dont like Love, thats fine. But just remember this in 1-2 years from now.

Those were ONLY PF. ;)
Add in centers, I bet you'll be surprised. ;)

WSU Tony
01-21-2009, 06:07 PM
I love how u expect Love to average a double double and right now there are only 9 guys in the league that average a double double in rebs and points. So that makes him the 10th guy to do that. I would go for that.

You make it sound like if Love averaged 10/10 he'd be the 10th best guy in the league....




With big men, those expectations are ridiculous. If you dont like Love, thats fine. But just remember this in 1-2 years from now.



15/12 are "rediculous" expectations? I was wrong, 15/12 isn't even good enough for top ten at his position. 15/12 is right around league average for a PF. I can't expect around league average from a top 5 pick in the draft? I don't understand why everyone is happy to settle.

Mauersota
01-21-2009, 06:27 PM
I agree a big man take ntop 5 pick in a GOOD draft should be expected to average a double double when is the only question. The more polished he is the sooner.

thesparky33
01-22-2009, 12:55 AM
15/12 are "rediculous" expectations? I was wrong, 15/12 isn't even good enough for top ten at his position. 15/12 is right around league average for a PF. I can't expect around league average from a top 5 pick in the draft? I don't understand why everyone is happy to settle.

No, I agree with 15/12. I think he'll be at least a double rebound guy, but with Big Al, his rebounding numbers wont be great, although he gets about half of them on the offensive glass (5th in the league currently), which in-itself is rare and great.

I'm just saying that if you expect every "top 5" pick to be in the 10-best at their position, then you are setting yourself up to be disappointed 4 out of 5 times IMO or even more, especially with the talent in the league. Even a guy like OJ Mayo will be tough to be top 10 in his position, although I think he MIGHT be able to.

boeknows
01-22-2009, 01:24 AM
Those were ONLY PF. ;)

The guys i was talking about werent just PF they were everybody that was averaging a double double in the NBA.

boeknows
01-22-2009, 01:28 AM
You make it sound like if Love averaged 10/10 he'd be the 10th best guy in the league....


15/12 are "rediculous" expectations? I was wrong, 15/12 isn't even good enough for top ten at his position. 15/12 is right around league average for a PF. I can't expect around league average from a top 5 pick in the draft? I don't understand why everyone is happy to settle.

Im not saying he would be the 10th best guy in the league. But if he was averaging 15 and 12 then he would be the third leading rebounder in the NBA right now. If he is putting us 15 points to go along with it I would say that would be good enough for me. If Foye and Al are scoring all the points what does Love have to be scoring over 20 for?