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Talick
01-07-2009, 11:09 PM
Do you think Vince Carter, if his career ended today, would be inducted

theuuord
01-07-2009, 11:10 PM
YES.

let me get out of the way now so fifty people can say no, because of fifty different meaningless reasons that are clung to for whatever excuse they need.

carry on.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:11 PM
He's not going to the hall unless he waits in line and gets a ticket

JordansBulls
01-07-2009, 11:15 PM
Kevin Johnson hasn't made it, nor Tim Hardaway. Grant Hill probably won't make it either.

Talick
01-07-2009, 11:24 PM
The superstar that single handedly put the Raptors on the map. If Dominique Wilkins is in the HOF Carter should be there.

superkegger
01-07-2009, 11:29 PM
Carter hs done nothing to warrant his presence in the Hall of Fame.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:30 PM
The superstar that single handedly put the Raptors on the map. If Dominique Wilkins is in the HOF Carter should be there.

The Super star that then single handidly ruined them by packing it in and forcing them into a terrible trade.

theuuord
01-07-2009, 11:30 PM
Carter hs done nothing to warrant his presence in the Hall of Fame.

....except be a Hall of Fame caliber player.

Outside of THAT, though....

theuuord
01-07-2009, 11:31 PM
The Super star that then single handidly ruined them by packing it in and forcing them into a terrible trade.

He forced them into it?

Nooooo.... They agreed to that deal. He was in a horrible situation and wanted out, of course. He did quit on the team. But that whole thing is so overblown.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:32 PM
....except be a Hall of Fame caliber player.

Outside of THAT, though....

Hall of fame potential, that he never lived up to by doing the small things like, oh idk, winning or caring or competing.



I can argue the lesser points of vince carter all night.

ink
01-07-2009, 11:33 PM
Carter hs done nothing to warrant his presence in the Hall of Fame.

I agree. He's had good years, but that doesn't merit entry into the HoF.

theuuord
01-07-2009, 11:34 PM
Hall of fame potential, that he never lived up to by doing the small things like, oh idk, winning or caring or competing.



I can argue the lesser points of vince carter all night.

lol @ blaming Vince Carter for his management building bad teams around him year after year and blaming Vince for not winning.

Clearly Vince doesn't care about winning. That's why he's never made a game winner in his life.



OH WAIT.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:36 PM
He forced them into it?

Nooooo.... They agreed to that deal. He was in a horrible situation and wanted out, of course. He did quit on the team. But that whole thing is so overblown.

There are ways to do it, he put his team in a postion where they could'nt get any where close to fair vaule back.

Look at KG, he wanted out for YEARS! Never quit. Showed up every night, and when the time came his team was able to make a decent deal (side note Al Jefferson is turinng out to be a better deal every game, love that kid)


That is how it is done.

carter15
01-07-2009, 11:36 PM
here come the vc haters...always with the single lame reason.

theuuord
01-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Let's see the list of STARS that Vince had with him on the Raptors:

1) A 19-year-old Chris Bosh who hadn't shown the potential that he has lived up to since Vince was traded
2) A young Tracy McGrady, who was still developing when he was traded to the Magic

....

...


That's it.

Voshon Leonard, Antonio Daniels, Keon Clark, Morris Peterson, Donyell Marshall.

These are the "great" players Vince had.

When Voshon Leonard is your second option, clearly it's your fault and not management's for losing.

*smh*

I'm going to ball with some friends. I'll be back assuredly to some scathing comments about Vince Carter later.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:41 PM
here come the vc haters...always with the single lame reason.

Of course, VC is up there with the guys that are either Loved or Hated.
Almost no one is in the middle on the subject.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:44 PM
Let's see the list of STARS that Vince had with him on the Raptors:

1) A 19-year-old Chris Bosh who hadn't shown the potential that he has lived up to since Vince was traded
2) A young Tracy McGrady, who was still developing when he was traded to the Magic

....

...


That's it.

Voshon Leonard, Antonio Daniels, Keon Clark, Morris Peterson, Donyell Marshall.

These are the "great" players Vince had.

When Voshon Leonard is your second option, clearly it's your fault and not management's for losing.

*smh*

I'm going to ball with some friends. I'll be back assuredly to some scathing comments about Vince Carter later.

I don't care that he wanted out. That is understanable.
PLayers get stuck in bad situations I get it.

It's how he went about it. Terrible. Unprofesional.

dre1990
01-07-2009, 11:45 PM
I wouldnt vote for him but he'll make it. ive never heard of an 8 time all star

carter15
01-07-2009, 11:45 PM
Of course, VC is up there with the guys that are either Loved or Hated.
Almost no one is in the middle on the subject.

of course..that is the case with most stars :p ...vc prob a bit more then the normal ones tho lol

Kohaku
01-07-2009, 11:45 PM
Wow heat's coach's head is so oily...

theuuord
01-07-2009, 11:47 PM
I don't care that he wanted out. That is understanable.
PLayers get stuck in bad situations I get it.

It's how he went about it. Terrible. Unprofesional.

Okay, so my friend lost his ID so I have a minute.. Let me ask you a question.

What do you find more unprofessional, a history of terrible basketball mismanagement, or wanting to leave a situation of terrible basketball management?

It's like if your boss berates you every day, surrounds your office with incompetent workers, wonders why you're mad, and then gets upset when you want to join another company.

i wonder if anyone here has ever called in sick.

kswissdaf
01-07-2009, 11:48 PM
He needs a championship

jamool26
01-07-2009, 11:50 PM
The superstar that single handedly put the Raptors on the map. If Dominique Wilkins is in the HOF Carter should be there.

Yeah he only has about 9,000 points to go to catch him. If he is able to do that then i'd have to say, sure he belongs.

DocUSN
01-07-2009, 11:51 PM
Okay, so my friend lost his ID so I have a minute.. Let me ask you a question.

What do you find more unprofessional, a history of terrible basketball mismanagement, or wanting to leave a situation of terrible basketball management?

It's like if your boss berates you every day, surrounds your office with incompetent workers, wonders why you're mad, and then gets upset when you want to join another company.

i wonder if anyone here has ever called in sick.

You must be the type of guy who dosnt give the two weeks notice :p


Look it happens all the time, you can't tell me the raptors have been more poorly managed then the Twolves under Mchale, Did KG whine and uit his way out? nope.

I won't argue that VC is not a great basketball player, because he is, hes a very talented basketball player, I just don't like him as a human :D

jamool26
01-07-2009, 11:52 PM
He needs a championship

So now guys need to win championships to make the HOF? Didn't realize that was a pre-requisite.

DocUSN
01-08-2009, 12:01 AM
So now guys need to win championships to make the HOF? Didn't realize that was a pre-requisite.

No but some need it to put them over the top.

Pual Pierce was border line, now he is closer, another ring hes a lock

Dominique Wilkins never had one, but he is 10th on the career scoring list.

VC

17,384 Points
4,005 Rebounds
3,096 Assist
917 Steals
0 Rings
0 Confrence Championships

Decent Career, but HOF???? gotta be kidding yourself.

ink
01-08-2009, 12:02 AM
Kevin Johnson hasn't made it, nor Tim Hardaway. Grant Hill probably won't make it either.

I'd take all of those players in the HoF ahead of Carter. And not because of the simplistic "management" reason people are defending him with. I'm not getting involved in this though, since I've posted all I want to post about him. He's good, not great.

MagicBucsSox
01-08-2009, 12:08 AM
hell ya i mean to be honest, whats the difference between vince and say dominique wilkins

MagicBucsSox
01-08-2009, 12:10 AM
did someone just bring up paul pierce? he was a nobody to the league til he got 2 other HOF on his teams please,he was a good player but no one cared about him

Lebron23
01-08-2009, 12:11 AM
Bernard King, Dennis Rodman, and Dennis Johnson are not yet inducted in the HOF, and they had a better resume than Vince Carter.

Kings Faithful
01-08-2009, 12:15 AM
For what? Dunking?

jamool26
01-08-2009, 12:15 AM
hell ya i mean to be honest, whats the difference between vince and say dominique wilkins

Do you read the other posts before commenting? I just said what the difference was....about 9,000 points. Which by my count is pretty significant.

DocUSN
01-08-2009, 12:16 AM
did someone just bring up paul pierce? he was a nobody to the league til he got 2 other HOF on his teams please,he was a good player but no one cared about him

Paul Pierce

17,639 Points
4,852 Rebounds
3,021 Assist
1,226 Steals


VC

17,384 Points
4,005 Rebounds
3,096 Assist
917 Steals

Your Argument has no basis, PP was nobody, btVC should be inducted with the same resume? really?

ee
01-08-2009, 12:24 AM
seems like we have vc hof poll every other month

Lebron23
01-08-2009, 12:25 AM
For what? Dunking?

Winning a Gold Medal in the 2000 Olympics as the best player of Team USA. :D:D:D

But seriously Wilkins had a better career than Air Canada, and during his prime he once scored 48 points againts Larry Bird in the 1988 Playoffs, and he also led the Atlanta Hawks to several 50 plus wins in a very competitive Eastern Conference during the 1980's.

Wilkins was also a former NBA Scoring Champion
2x NBA Slamdunk Champion
Member of the NBA First, Second, and Third Team
2nd in the NBA MVP Voting in the 1985-86 NBA Season
Former Euroleague Finals MVP
He was also the MVP of the Greek Cup.
Led the Atlanta Hawks to a Division title in 1987
Won a Gold Medal in the 1994 FIBA World Championship

DocUSN
01-08-2009, 12:29 AM
Winning a Gold Medal in the 2000 Olympics as the best player of Team USA. :D:D:D

But seriously Wilkins had a better career than Air Canada, and during his prime he once scored 48 points againts Larry Bird in the Playoffs, and he also led the Atlanta Hawks to several 50 plus wins in a much competitive Eastern Conference in the 1980's.

Wilkins was also a former NBA Scoring Champion
2nd in the NBA MVP Voting in the 1985-86 NBA Season
Former Euroleague Finals MVP
He was also the MVP of the Greek Cup.

Good points there, a lot of people like to think its the NBA hall of fame, when it is the basketball hall of fame

Chronz
01-08-2009, 12:34 AM
Good points there, a lot of people like to think its the NBA hall of fame, when it is the basketball hall of fame

Vince has a gold medal and has utterly dominated the international competition throughout his history. He could always retire early and win a few MVP's in a lesser league if he wanted to but he probably knows thats not the best way to boost your legacy.

Lakersfan2483
01-08-2009, 12:45 AM
Do you think Vince Carter, if his career ended today, would be inducted

No

colinskik
01-08-2009, 01:07 AM
Whether its fair or not, he's been a household name and is a face of the NBA. That can only helps his chances.

CB4AB7VC15
01-08-2009, 01:08 AM
if wilkins isn't nor is carter, but if pp gets in so should carter cuz they are on level. also give me a break that tim hardaway and kevin jonshon are better cuz theyre not. whos next mark price and john starks.

MagicBucsSox
01-08-2009, 01:09 AM
vince carter is an icon of the game,worldwide known, and injuries held him back from better stats

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:05 AM
You guys have got to be joking. Bernard King ahead of Vince Carter? Dennis Rodman? Rodman was an unbelievable rebounder but beyond that he can't sniff Vince's abilities.


What's so sad about this is people pay attention to how his dunking could overrate him so much that they actually underrate him. It's really disheartening how people's biases keep them from seeing what is one of the premier players of our generation.

Even if he'd never dunked a basketball in his life, Vince deserves induction to the Hall of Fame. On merit alone.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:07 AM
You must be the type of guy who dosnt give the two weeks notice :p


Look it happens all the time, you can't tell me the raptors have been more poorly managed then the Twolves under Mchale, Did KG whine and uit his way out? nope.

I won't argue that VC is not a great basketball player, because he is, hes a very talented basketball player, I just don't like him as a human :D

Uhhh yeah, he did. He whined about having Wally Szczerbiak as a sidekick for most of his career there. He HATED him. And all of that got him traded.
In fact that's exactly what he did. It's weird that you bring him up.

And it's not the Human Hall of Fame. It's the Basketball Hall of Fame. There are a lot of people in there we wouldn't like as humans, because they were insanely good at basketball. That's the point of it.

And by the way, have you ever met Vince Carter? Or talked to him? Or is everything you know about him told through the voice of the media that follow him?

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:08 AM
For what? Dunking?

No, for his accomplishments as a basketball player and to recognize his ability.

Jesus.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:10 AM
I'd take all of those players in the HoF ahead of Carter. And not because of the simplistic "management" reason people are defending him with. I'm not getting involved in this though, since I've posted all I want to post about him. He's good, not great.

Kevin Johnson? Tim Hardaway?

Kevin Johnson, as much as I like him (and I really, really do), has no business being in the Hall of Fame ahead of Vince Carter. I mean, he might deserve it as well, but if you let him in there's no doubt that you think Carter should be in.

bigmac8675
01-08-2009, 02:11 AM
No....

Zefflin
01-08-2009, 02:12 AM
If he and the Nets even make the playoffs this year, that will tell the tale of his legacy.

Sixerlover
01-08-2009, 02:17 AM
No.

I find it funny how someone said Pierce was a nobody until last year, when he and Vince have the same exact stats basically only Pierce now has a title ring along with that. And people who had the potential for hall of fame numbers but won't make it because of injuries aren't inducted. Ask Penny

Raidaz4Life
01-08-2009, 02:17 AM
I can't believe this is even a conversation.... people need to get off the VC bandwagon that left 5 years ago and come to terms with the reality that he is nor never will be the player he was suppose to be. You cannot give a person a spot in the hall just because they had the talent.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:18 AM
No.

I find it funny how someone said Pierce was a nobody until last year, when he and Vince have the same exact stats basically only Pierce now has a title ring along with that. And people who had the potential for hall of fame numbers but won't make it because of injuries aren't inducted. Ask Penny

Pierce is a Hall of Fame candidate too...

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:19 AM
Okay, guys... guys. Nobody is talking about the "what if" factor. There is no conversation happening about what Vince MIGHT HAVE DONE. Only based upon what he has accomplished.
People get so caught up in these automatic responses that they actually lose sight of how good he really is.

Sixerlover
01-08-2009, 02:22 AM
Okay, guys... guys. Nobody is talking about the "what if" factor. There is no conversation happening about what Vince MIGHT HAVE DONE. Only based upon what he has accomplished.
People get so caught up in these automatic responses that they actually lose sight of how good he really is.

But what one thing can you put your finger on and say Hall of Fame?
How many finals MVP's?
How many finals titles?
How many regular season MVP's?
What is he known for besides scoring?

And if he is going to use that to try and get it, where on the all time list is he exactly? He is a allstar, but not a HOF player.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:35 AM
But what one thing can you put your finger on and say Hall of Fame?
How many finals MVP's?
How many finals titles?
How many regular season MVP's?
What is he known for besides scoring?

And if he is going to use that to try and get it, where on the all time list is he exactly? He is a allstar, but not a HOF player.

Are you really going to blame him for not reaching the Finals when his second options for most of his career were Donyell Marshall, Voshon Leonard, and Antonio Daniels?

I know you're not THAT silly. Even Jordan needed Pippen.

No guard can go to the NBA Finals and win on his own. Every guard needs a dominant big man. (unless you're Jordan. then you just need Pippen. And to be Jordan.) Carter has been villified his whole career for having absolutely nobody around him and STILL taking his Raptors team to the playoffs.
Then, he got to the Nets, where they got spanked in the playoffs by the eventual NBA Champion Miami Heat two years in a row (although Miami lost to the eventual champion Pistons the first year), and beat by a clearly superior Cavalier team.
Now, the Nets have been blown up and are outplaying expectations, mostly due to Devin Harris and Vince Carter playing awesomely.

Carter is known for being an excellent all-around guard who can shoot, slash, pass, and rebound. He also has ice water running through his veins - just check any of his three point buzzer beaters to win games. (it'll take a while, he has lots of them.)

He is one of only three players in all of the NBA last year to average at least 21-5-5. The other two? Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. I would argue that those guys are pretty good too.

Seriously. I didn't even mention dunking or potential once.

Chronz
01-08-2009, 02:35 AM
No.

I find it funny how someone said Pierce was a nobody until last year, when he and Vince have the same exact stats basically only Pierce now has a title ring along with that. And people who had the potential for hall of fame numbers but won't make it because of injuries aren't inducted. Ask Penny
Crazy what a difference a year makes, Paul Pierce did nothing, I mean absolutely NOTHING different from one year to the next (aside from a slightly improved pick and roll game) yet his legacy as a player is completely altered due to that championship. Winning overrates everyone, players shouldnt be judged on how much they win but by how much they help their teams win. VC willed his teams to victories yet he wont be recognized by most because he didnt have quality teammates to help him win more. Basketball is probably the 1 sport where the majority of the fan base entire careers by who you have around you. Vince was in all seriousness a better player than Iverson throughout most of his career, yet because he didnt hog the ball and didnt have the help in his prime wont get anywhere close to the same amount of respect.


I can't believe this is even a conversation.... people need to get off the VC bandwagon that left 5 years ago and come to terms with the reality that he is nor never will be the player he was suppose to be. You cannot give a person a spot in the hall just because they had the talent.

Just the same you cannot take it away just because they didnt realize the potential you saw in him. He was still a great player regardless.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:36 AM
For what it's worth, Carter is currently 70th on the all-time scoring list, and at his current pace will probably reach the top 30 or 40. In points per game, he is 20th all time (although that is bound to dip a bit as he declines, also probably to the 30-40 range).

superkegger
01-08-2009, 03:00 AM
But what one thing can you put your finger on and say Hall of Fame?
How many finals MVP's?
How many finals titles?
How many regular season MVP's?
What is he known for besides scoring?

And if he is going to use that to try and get it, where on the all time list is he exactly? He is a allstar, but not a HOF player.

Exactly, he's not much more than a scorer, which in the history of the NBA is pretty much, well, not all that special.

Look at guys like
Jeff Malone (2 time all star, 19ppg)
Jack Sickma (7 time all star, career 15.6 ppg, 9.8 rpg)
Earl Monroe (4 time all star, 1 all nba 1st team, 18.8 ppg)
Rolando Blackman (4 time all star, 18 ppg)
Chris Mullin (5 time all star, 1 time all NBA first team, 18.2 ppg)
Lou Hudson (6 time all star, 20.2 ppg)
World B. Free (1 time all star, 20.3 ppg)
Glen Rice (3 time all star, 18.3 ppg)
Mark Aguirre (3 time all star, 20 ppg)
Chet Walker (7 time all star, 18.2 ppg)
Reggie Theus (3 time all star, 18.5 ppg)
Gail Goodrich (5 time all star 1 time all nba first team, 18.6 ppg)
Bernard King (3 time all star 2 time all nba first team, 22.5 ppg)
Tom Chambers (4 time all star, 18.1 ppg)
Mitch Richmond (6 time all star, 21 ppg)

All these guys, good players and so on, scored the ball well, but they are not in the hall of fame, and quite frankly, Vince fits in well with them, which is not in the hall of fame.

GodsSon
01-08-2009, 03:55 AM
[QUOTE=theuuord;7918531]Are you really going to blame him for not reaching the Finals when his second options for most of his career were Donyell Marshall, Voshon Leonard, and Antonio Daniels?

I know you're not THAT silly. Even Jordan needed Pippen.

No guard can go to the NBA Finals and win on his own. Every guard needs a dominant big man. (unless you're Jordan. then you just need Pippen. And to be Jordan.) Carter has been villified his whole career for having absolutely nobody around him and STILL taking his Raptors team to the playoffs.
Then, he got to the Nets, where they got spanked in the playoffs by the eventual NBA Champion Miami Heat two years in a row (although Miami lost to the eventual champion Pistons the first year), and beat by a clearly superior Cavalier team.
Now, the Nets have been blown up and are outplaying expectations, mostly due to Devin Harris and Vince Carter playing awesomely.


How did VC have no one to play with? lets go through some names he played with during his tenure in toronto...

1) Doug Christie...a very solid guard...averaged 13ppg in 2 seasons with VC
2) Alvin Williams...yet another solid guard who gave everything he had, night in and night out...8-12 ppg, 5apg...solid defensively
3) Antonio DAVIS (not daniels)...was an all-star in 01 averaging 13/10...had some good years with VC
4) Keon Clark...dunno if you ever saw this guy play in toronto, but he was a good 6th man off the bench and a monster with the blocks.
5) Charles Oakley...tough as nails and hustled on every play...averaged a near double/double in 01 (9/9).
6) Mo Pete...although he was always inconsistent, he served as a good wingman to carter for a bunch of years...averaged around the 15 ppg mark each year during that time.

all of these players were available to VC early in his career...throw in T-mac too, and Jalen and Bosh at later times...point is, the team was tailor made around VC consisting of a bunch of a solid players who each filled their own niche, and they peaked in 01...after that, he began to decline as injuries hit and his motivation to improve his game dwindled.

moving onto new jersey, he had RJ and kidd...two all-star calibre players, with VC being the apparent stud of the 3...and what happened with them when he was surrounded with 2 all-star talents? didnt get past the second round either.

Face it, while he may have the scoring ability to fill up the basket, he lacks the other intangibles to ever be considered a HOF player, and will always be known as a player who had unlimited potential, and squandered it.

to paraphrase charles oakley upon his dismissal from toronto, largely due to VC and his mom *****ing to management about Oak's criticism of him..."Vince will always be a top 3 talent in the this league, but will be bottom 3 in heart"

MagicBucsSox
01-08-2009, 11:00 AM
people keep saying paul pierce is a HOF if vince is cause of stats, well bernard king has stats and he's STILL not in ,vince carter is and forever will be an icon to the game,people in japan know vince no one there knows paul pierce

JordansBulls
01-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Exactly, he's not much more than a scorer, which in the history of the NBA is pretty much, well, not all that special.

Look at guys like
Jeff Malone (2 time all star, 19ppg)
Jack Sickma (7 time all star, career 15.6 ppg, 9.8 rpg)
Earl Monroe (4 time all star, 1 all nba 1st team, 18.8 ppg)
Rolando Blackman (4 time all star, 18 ppg)
Chris Mullin (5 time all star, 1 time all NBA first team, 18.2 ppg)
Lou Hudson (6 time all star, 20.2 ppg)
World B. Free (1 time all star, 20.3 ppg)
Glen Rice (3 time all star, 18.3 ppg)
Mark Aguirre (3 time all star, 20 ppg)
Chet Walker (7 time all star, 18.2 ppg)
Reggie Theus (3 time all star, 18.5 ppg)
Gail Goodrich (5 time all star 1 time all nba first team, 18.6 ppg)
Bernard King (3 time all star 2 time all nba first team, 22.5 ppg)
Tom Chambers (4 time all star, 18.1 ppg)
Mitch Richmond (6 time all star, 21 ppg)

All these guys, good players and so on, scored the ball well, but they are not in the hall of fame, and quite frankly, Vince fits in well with them, which is not in the hall of fame.

Good post. It's amazing how many of those guys were stars when you think about it.

Mile High Champ
01-08-2009, 11:11 AM
I am not sure how to respond.. either laugh at it or call it stupid, which is a better fit?

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 01:01 PM
Wow. First of all I can't tell you guys that I didn't expect the chashing, hatred, and nonsense whenI first saw it in the forums.


You must be the type of guy who dosnt give the two weeks notice :p


Look it happens all the time, you can't tell me the raptors have been more poorly managed then the Twolves under Mchale, Did KG whine and uit his way out? nope.

I won't argue that VC is not a great basketball player, because he is, hes a very talented basketball player, I just don't like him as a human :D

First of all since when did they induct players into the hall of fame based on their image? Or based on if people like the player or not? That response is crazy and just proves that ur basing ur answer through ur dislike for carter.. You admit that yea he is a "great player"... but u don't like him as a "human".. with all do respect.. who's gives a rat's ***** if u like him or not?

We are judging him on the type of player he is... And hes play throughout his career has clearly warranted an appearance or even consideration. And he has far from done.. He is still puttin up 23 5 and 5... and wat hes 32? i say he still has about 6-8 years left in him.

DocUSN
01-08-2009, 01:09 PM
Wow. First of all I can't tell you guys that I didn't expect the chashing, hatred, and nonsense whenI first saw it in the forums.



First of all since when did they induct players into the hall of fame based on their image? Or based on if people like the player or not? That response is crazy and just proves that ur basing ur answer through ur dislike for carter.. You admit that yea he is a "great player"... but u don't like him as a "human".. with all do respect.. who's gives a rat's ***** if u like him or not?

We are judging him on the type of player he is... And hes play throughout his career has clearly warranted an appearance or even consideration. And he has far from done.. He is still puttin up 23 5 and 5... and wat hes 32? i say he still has about 6-8 years left in him.

Hes a great player but what has he done that is HOF worthy?

Yeah hes a decent scorer, his numbers are identical to pierces though.
Never been MVP
Never been Scoring Champ
Never been to the finals, or the confrence finals
Gold in the olympics, but that dosnt make you a shoe in into the hof.

The question is if his career ended today would he be inducted, based on his PLAYING resume no he would not.

I apologies to all the VC fans who like flashy dunks and ****** basketball but its the truth.

JobaTheHeat62
01-08-2009, 01:14 PM
i think he deserves to be HOF...hes played on crap teams, and has put up some great numbers for many years. i would love to see him on an elite team, and let him get some more playoff games, and a chance at a title. and this is all coming from a duke fan.

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 01:25 PM
I am not sure how to respond.. either laugh at it or call it stupid, which is a better fit?

Your acting like it asked if Adrea Barnani would be a HOF? NO i'm guessing u miss read.. it said Vince Carter... Why he should be a hof?

8 time NBA ALL STAR(till has a lot left .. prbly will have 10-12 in his career)
Two Time All NBA team.. ( Second, third)
Led team USA to gold medal in the 2000 olympics(by far was the best on that team)
1999 Rookie of the Year
Career States: 24 PPG.. 5.5 Reb.. 4.2 ASt ...WIll probably end up with about 25,000 plus points in his career or close to it.. which will put him at least the top 20 scoring all time...
Not to mention that he is one of most clutch players to play the game... I think he has 14 game winning shots in his career... Yup! How many players .. as a matter of facet how many HOF have that in their resume?
He has averaged 20 plus points per game for 10 straight seasons
Has been to the playoffs multiple times.. and has made it out of the first round at least mhmhmh Chris Bosh, Tmac..
He holds the record for most three pointers in a single playoff game with 9
Has a 50 point game where he went mano e mano with Allen I and probably out played him..
Averages 26 ppg in his 42 career playoff games...
Carter had a game where he got the SECOND highest triple double in NBA history.. where he scored 46 points 16 rebounds and 10 assist.... How many have ever done that?
Not to mention that he he holds like almost all of toronto's like scoring records.. even after he left liek 5 yeats ago. and hes ripping up the nets record books as well..
These are all reasons to why he should be in the Hall of Fame... To add to it...in his prime he is probably the most athletic and entertaining player to ever put on a NBA uniform.. NOt to mention one of the most well rounded players in the NBa... one of the top scorers ever.. Not only is he a dunker,, but has a great shot.. can hit the most ridicolous shots from any where on the court.. abilkity to pass.. and rebound... Enough said.. hate him all you want ... He is definitly HOF worthy.

ink
01-08-2009, 01:29 PM
Wow. First of all I can't tell you guys that I didn't expect the chashing

What is chashing?? :confused:

mjt20mik
01-08-2009, 01:38 PM
Still has something left in his career. If he can like go to contender and win a championship he's shoe in for sure. But other than that, it's really iffy with him.

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 01:52 PM
What is chashing?? :confused:

Sorry I men t to sayy bashing.. don't kno where that came from.:D

DitchDat
01-08-2009, 02:00 PM
I think he is HOF material.

NYstateofMinD
01-08-2009, 02:01 PM
To a few people here that mentioned Dominique Wilkens he is in the hall. Bernard was a great player but he played only 874 games in 15 years. He has been way too injured to be in the hall of fame but I think he should get in regardless. Eddie Johnson was in the league for 17 seasons with career averages of 16.0 points 4.0 rebounds and 2.1 assists. Earl Monroe is in the hall of fame.

Vince Carter has played in the league for 10 years and here is his resume.

1998-99 Rookie of the Year
8x NBA all star
1998-99 1st Team all rookie
1999-00 3rd Team ALL NBA
2000-01 2nd Team ALL NBA
Tied for most 3 pointers in a playoff game with 9..most 3s in a half 8.and most consecutive 3 pointers made 8.. all in playoff game
23.8 ppg 5.5 rb 4.2 *** 1.3 stl .8 blk in 733 games
2000 Olympic gold medalist
Won an NCAA title
2000 Slam Dunk contest winner
With a weak Toronto team the team went 271-189 with him playing
With a Nets team that had plenty of injuries and had an aging Jkidd they went 176-155
In his career his teams have went 447-344 winning 57.38%
He has hit countless buzzer beaters and willed his team to victory
Has been the best player on every team he has played for
Is recognized as one of the best dunkers of all time
Put the Raptors on the Map while Vancouver died out
Led all star voting numerous times
Has had numerous injuries throughout his career that slowed him down but is still always at least top5 in his position. Before his injuries often argued that he was better than Kobe Bryant.

But no why should he be in the hall of fame? He did nothing except piss off Raptors fans.

NYstateofMinD
01-08-2009, 02:03 PM
Your acting like it asked if Adrea Barnani would be a HOF? NO i'm guessing u miss read.. it said Vince Carter... Why he should be a hof?

8 time NBA ALL STAR(till has a lot left .. prbly will have 10-12 in his career)
Two Time All NBA team.. ( Second, third)
Led team USA to gold medal in the 2000 olympics(by far was the best on that team)
1999 Rookie of the Year
Career States: 24 PPG.. 5.5 Reb.. 4.2 ASt ...WIll probably end up with about 25,000 plus points in his career or close to it.. which will put him at least the top 20 scoring all time...
Not to mention that he is one of most clutch players to play the game... I think he has 14 game winning shots in his career... Yup! How many players .. as a matter of facet how many HOF have that in their resume?
He has averaged 20 plus points per game for 10 straight seasons
Has been to the playoffs multiple times.. and has made it out of the first round at least mhmhmh Chris Bosh, Tmac..
He holds the record for most three pointers in a single playoff game with 9
Has a 50 point game where he went mano e mano with Allen I and probably out played him..
Averages 26 ppg in his 42 career playoff games...
Carter had a game where he got the SECOND highest triple double in NBA history.. where he scored 46 points 16 rebounds and 10 assist.... How many have ever done that?
Not to mention that he he holds like almost all of toronto's like scoring records.. even after he left liek 5 yeats ago. and hes ripping up the nets record books as well..
These are all reasons to why he should be in the Hall of Fame... To add to it...in his prime he is probably the most athletic and entertaining player to ever put on a NBA uniform.. NOt to mention one of the most well rounded players in the NBa... one of the top scorers ever.. Not only is he a dunker,, but has a great shot.. can hit the most ridicolous shots from any where on the court.. abilkity to pass.. and rebound... Enough said.. hate him all you want ... He is definitly HOF worthy.

Lol I hade a similar post I guess you beat me to it.

Statik1
01-08-2009, 02:07 PM
The superstar that single handedly put the Raptors on the map. If Dominique Wilkins is in the HOF Carter should be there.

Don't ever ever ever compare Dominique Wilkins to Carter..... He should never even be mentioned in the same breath as him..... wow

LA_Raiders
01-08-2009, 02:07 PM
NO, Why should he????

What has he done???

pebloemer
01-08-2009, 02:11 PM
Your acting like it asked if Adrea Barnani would be a HOF? NO i'm guessing u miss read.. it said Vince Carter... Why he should be a hof?

8 time NBA ALL STAR(till has a lot left .. prbly will have 10-12 in his career)
Two Time All NBA team.. ( Second, third)
Led team USA to gold medal in the 2000 olympics(by far was the best on that team)
1999 Rookie of the Year
Career States: 24 PPG.. 5.5 Reb.. 4.2 ASt ...WIll probably end up with about 25,000 plus points in his career or close to it.. which will put him at least the top 20 scoring all time...
Not to mention that he is one of most clutch players to play the game... I think he has 14 game winning shots in his career... Yup! How many players .. as a matter of facet how many HOF have that in their resume?
He has averaged 20 plus points per game for 10 straight seasons
Has been to the playoffs multiple times.. and has made it out of the first round at least mhmhmh Chris Bosh, Tmac..
He holds the record for most three pointers in a single playoff game with 9
Has a 50 point game where he went mano e mano with Allen I and probably out played him.. Averages 26 ppg in his 42 career playoff games...
Carter had a game where he got the SECOND highest triple double in NBA history.. where he scored 46 points 16 rebounds and 10 assist.... How many have ever done that?
Not to mention that he he holds like almost all of toronto's like scoring records.. even after he left liek 5 yeats ago. and hes ripping up the nets record books as well..
These are all reasons to why he should be in the Hall of Fame... To add to it...in his prime he is probably the most athletic and entertaining player to ever put on a NBA uniform.. NOt to mention one of the most well rounded players in the NBa... one of the top scorers ever.. Not only is he a dunker,, but has a great shot.. can hit the most ridicolous shots from any where on the court.. abilkity to pass.. and rebound... Enough said.. hate him all you want ... He is definitly HOF worthy.

1. Question was if his career ended NOW...
2. I don't think a 9 three pointer game and a 50 points game in a playoffs series adds much to his resume.
3. The Toronto scoring records is not that big of an accomplishment. What players have competed against him there?
4. Again, I don't think posting stats for individual games carries you very far when looking at the basketball hall of fame.

The allstar appearances, career statistics, gold medal, etc are all fair arguments in my opinion though. Although the fan voting helps him wit hthe all-star appearances. There were injury riddled years where he should not have been at the all-star game but got the fans support. If Yi got voted as starting PF would the all-star game be a big credit to his basketball resume? You raise a lot of good arguments, but in the context of Vince's career you make them sound much more impressive than they were.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:14 PM
How did VC have no one to play with? lets go through some names he played with during his tenure in toronto...

1) Doug Christie...a very solid guard...averaged 13ppg in 2 seasons with VC
2) Alvin Williams...yet another solid guard who gave everything he had, night in and night out...8-12 ppg, 5apg...solid defensively
3) Antonio DAVIS (not daniels)...was an all-star in 01 averaging 13/10...had some good years with VC
4) Keon Clark...dunno if you ever saw this guy play in toronto, but he was a good 6th man off the bench and a monster with the blocks.
5) Charles Oakley...tough as nails and hustled on every play...averaged a near double/double in 01 (9/9).
6) Mo Pete...although he was always inconsistent, he served as a good wingman to carter for a bunch of years...averaged around the 15 ppg mark each year during that time.

LOL. Exactly! That's NO ONE! Christie was a glorified role player, Alvin Williams was barely a starter, Antonio Davis had like one good year and the rest were spent as an average forward, Keon Clark played drunk 90% of the time (that's true, by the way - just ask him), Charles Oakley was 36 and bitter, and Mo Pete is like the most average guard ever.

Those are your top six players Vince played with?
Dude. You're proving my point. Oakley averaged 9/9, so he was a star? Seriously?

What I said, if you read, was that every guard outside of Jordan has needed a dominant post presence to help lead to a championship. Look through the history books, the last 30 some-odd years of NBA Champions. There are no exceptions to this rule. Vince had nobody NEAR this caliber his entire time in Toronto.



all of these players were available to VC early in his career...throw in T-mac too, and Jalen and Bosh at later times...point is, the team was tailor made around VC consisting of a bunch of a solid players who each filled their own niche, and they peaked in 01...after that, he began to decline as injuries hit and his motivation to improve his game dwindled.

moving onto new jersey, he had RJ and kidd...two all-star calibre players, with VC being the apparent stud of the 3...and what happened with them when he was surrounded with 2 all-star talents? didnt get past the second round either.

Did you even pay attention to those playoffs? They got eliminated by teams that had Dwyane Wade, Shaquille O'Neal, and LeBron James. Those players are all future Hall of Famers as well, all better players than Vince, and had teams that were better than the Nets.

Even when he moved to Jersey, he had a developing very good big man in Krstic but half of the post presence in Jersey was Jason Collins. The fact they got as far as they did was remarkable.


Face it, while he may have the scoring ability to fill up the basket, he lacks the other intangibles to ever be considered a HOF player, and will always be known as a player who had unlimited potential, and squandered it.

Squandered it? I still don't get this. Vince works his tail off every game in New Jersey, and basically birthed the crapstorm that was previously the Toronto Raptors. He is one of the best players in this generation, who has constantly been surrounded by teams that aren't championship material. If Carter had been on the Spurs, for instance, he'd probably have six rings by now. This negative image of him is solely based on circumstance.


to paraphrase charles oakley upon his dismissal from toronto, largely due to VC and his mom *****ing to management about Oak's criticism of him..."Vince will always be a top 3 talent in the this league, but will be bottom 3 in heart"

Really man? This is your argument? An old bitter Charles Oakley and Vince's mom? That's why he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame?

*sigh*

I really feel bad for you guys. I really do.

ink
01-08-2009, 02:17 PM
I really feel bad for you guys. I really do.

Keep the personal comments out of it. If you haven't noticed, there have been several non-Raptors fans posting that he doesn't belong in the HoF.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Keep the personal comments out of it. If you haven't noticed, there have been several non-Raptors fans posting that he doesn't belong in the HoF.

???
I wasn't talking about Raptors fans. (Although some of them are involved in this too.) It was a general statement.

I feel bad for you guys because the media's perception of Vince Carter has blinded you from enjoying what is truly one of the finest basketball players our generation has had to offer.

Why did you automatically assume it was a personal thing?

what54!?
01-08-2009, 02:22 PM
Good player: yes

HoF: the jury is out on that one. He's never really lead a team too far (but you can't with bad role players) or recieved many awards.

He could be there one day but it wont be first ballot.

ink
01-08-2009, 02:24 PM
???
I wasn't talking about Raptors fans. (Although some of them are involved in this too.) It was a general statement.

I feel bad for you guys because the media's perception of Vince Carter has blinded you from enjoying what is truly one of the finest basketball players our generation has had to offer.

Why did you automatically assume it was a personal thing?

You are making it personal with comments like "I feel bad for you guys" or the other one where you said "you guys are sick". If that's not personal I don't know what is. If you're frustrated, fine, but maybe it's not your role to defend him every time, and definitely not with put downs. You can blame anyone you like -- the media, fan blindness, whatever -- but you should also respect the fact that Carter's inclusion in the HoF is debatable and it looks like it's at least split as to whether he belongs or not.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:29 PM
You are making it personal with comments like "I feel bad for you guys" or the other one where you said "you guys are sick". If that's not personal I don't know what is. You can blame anyone you like -- the media, fan blindness, whatever -- but you should also respect the fact that Carter's inclusion in the HoF is debatable and it looks like it's at least split as to whether he belongs or not.

Think about it. When I've been saying Carter is a Hall of Famer, I'm pointing to facts - his insane scoring ability, his all-around play (rebounds, assists, etc), his ability to bring the Raptors from absolutely nothing to a playoff franchise, etc. These are all actual, tangible accomplishments.

When people argue against him, so much of the time it's some cliche "oh he quit on his team" or something like that, without even stopping to think about the actual situation that he was involved in. It is a knee-jerk, unconscious reaction of sorts - just something that we've heard and that we say. That's really what I'm trying to combat.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 02:41 PM
Okay, now let's debate Vince Carter's worthiness!

Thatruth32
01-08-2009, 02:41 PM
question should be will he even be on the ballot... my genral rule is if u have to think if someone is HOF ... then hes not

CDN_BEARS_FAN
01-08-2009, 02:58 PM
Once Carter retires he will not really be remembered for being a winner. You can say he had no supporting cast, but he has played with some pretty good players in both Toronto and NJ.

He will likely be remebered for a few things:
1-slam dunk contest (exciting, but dee brown isn't in the HOF either)
2-the Toronto situation and his being traded. Whether or not it is fair, he will be remebered as a guy who admitted to quiting on his team and sulking. Not what gets you into the HOF.
3-Missing the clutch shot that could have defined his career against Philly in the playoffs.
4- A great scorer.

Yes, a good player. No, not a HOF. I am acutally surprised this is a topic of discussion. Carter really isn't even mentioned among the great players right now. A HOF player should at least remain relevant for most of his career. In reality, T-Mac is a more likely candidate, and I don't think he will get in either.

superkegger
01-08-2009, 02:59 PM
I guess when you actually make a point, like i did here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7918684&postcount=56), it's too relevant too respond too. :shrug: Or I guess it's hard to respond to something you have nothing to say to because it's hard to refute. :shrug:

Sixerlover
01-08-2009, 03:02 PM
Yep. Doesn't want to see that. Vince is just another great scorer. No outstanding rebound numbers, assist numbers, no titles, no mvp's, not even a scoring title for being such a great "scorer" (If I'm not mistaken). His resume' isn't earth shattering by any means.

BTW - Yi Jianlian is a couple thousand votes away from starting in the all star game, just goes to show how watered down the fan vote made that. So him being the electric dunker he was, OF COURSE the fans were going to vote him in all those times. So you can't constantly lean on that one either.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 03:06 PM
I guess when you actually make a point, like i did here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7918684&postcount=56), it's too relevant too respond too. :shrug: Or I guess it's hard to respond to something you have nothing to say to because it's hard to refute. :shrug:

LOL. please don't think your point was that outstanding. it's just that I'm pretty much responding to everything.

Sorry I missed one?:eyebrow:

Anyway, how the heck is that point relevant? Carter has more all-star appearances than all of those players and he's only 32. He also has a higher scoring average than all of those players not only in his career overall, but in almost every single season of his career individually.

If anything, this list just shows how he's a cut above the borderline candidates, in consistency, scoring, and all-star perception. (Although I think All-Star votes are overrated, but that's another argument.)



Jeff Malone (2 time all star, 19ppg)
Jack Sickma (7 time all star, career 15.6 ppg, 9.8 rpg)
Earl Monroe (4 time all star, 1 all nba 1st team, 18.8 ppg)
Rolando Blackman (4 time all star, 18 ppg)
Chris Mullin (5 time all star, 1 time all NBA first team, 18.2 ppg)
Lou Hudson (6 time all star, 20.2 ppg)
World B. Free (1 time all star, 20.3 ppg)
Glen Rice (3 time all star, 18.3 ppg)
Mark Aguirre (3 time all star, 20 ppg)
Chet Walker (7 time all star, 18.2 ppg)
Reggie Theus (3 time all star, 18.5 ppg)
Gail Goodrich (5 time all star 1 time all nba first team, 18.6 ppg)
Bernard King (3 time all star 2 time all nba first team, 22.5 ppg)
Tom Chambers (4 time all star, 18.1 ppg)
Mitch Richmond (6 time all star, 21 ppg)

DocUSN
01-08-2009, 03:06 PM
This has made me think about whos not in the HOF forget VC why isnt Rodman a hofer?

2 time defensive player of the year
5 rings
7 all defensive teams
2 all nba thrid team
led the nba in rebounding for 7 streight seasons

Now that is a hall of fame reuseme.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 03:08 PM
lol @ listing a bunch of players who have less accomplishments across the board than Vince Carter and trying to bunch him in with them.

And, in turn, trying to push the point even though I glossed over it the first time.

Sorry yo.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 03:10 PM
This has made me think about whos not in the HOF forget VC why isnt Rodman a hofer?

2 time defensive player of the year
5 rings
7 all defensive teams
2 all nba thrid team
led the nba in rebounding for 7 streight seasons

Now that is a hall of fame reuseme.

Rodman is probably the most interesting case to look at, and not just because of his constantly changing hair color. The perception of his value is extraordinarily widespread, far more than Vince's - people either think he was one of the most dominant forces in the paint in basketball history, or a glorified role player who got more attention than he deserved for his off the court antics.

Me, I'd put him in the Hall of Fame - I lean more towards the first category. But it's such a weird case to look at and study because depending on what you value, you either think he's great or average. There's really no middle ground.

DocUSN
01-08-2009, 03:22 PM
Rodman is probably the most interesting case to look at, and not just because of his constantly changing hair color. The perception of his value is extraordinarily widespread, far more than Vince's - people either think he was one of the most dominant forces in the paint in basketball history, or a glorified role player who got more attention than he deserved for his off the court antics.

Me, I'd put him in the Hall of Fame - I lean more towards the first category. But it's such a weird case to look at and study because depending on what you value, you either think he's great or average. There's really no middle ground.

I'm sorry but idk of anyone (disclaimer people who know the game is much more then scoring) who thinks one of if not the bes rebounding forwards of all ime is just avrage, but I tend to forget we have a ton of young people on here who probably never saw him play.

BowDown32
01-08-2009, 03:31 PM
Are you Crazy?!? This is the dumbest question I've seen on here in a while. I'm from Toronto and love Vince Carter and all he has done for the Raps as a franchise, but give me a break people.

There is no chance in hell he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. He was a great scorer, could dunk the ball sure, but him and his team couldn't win ****. Atleast Dominique competed with the likes of Larry Bird and Dr. J. The HOF is for the best players ever. Vince is not one of the greatest players to play the game.

If you watch basketball and understand the game there is no way you can put him in there. I could name 20 players in the L right now who would make it over him and they probably won't all make it. Stop with this VC stuff mang. He's fallen off.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 03:34 PM
I'm sorry but idk of anyone (disclaimer people who know the game is much more then scoring) who thinks one of if not the bes rebounding forwards of all ime is just avrage, but I tend to forget we have a ton of young people on here who probably never saw him play.

Well that's the problem.
Of course basketball goes beyond scoring, but the question is - and this is where the difference in Rodman's perception lies - at what cost?

Rodman was actually a pretty decent scorer for a few years in Detroit, until he began to focus entirely on rebounding. He was actually so obsessed with getting rebounds during the prime of his career that pretty much everything else took a backseat. He didn't score very well (or at all, really), he didn't block shots, or force a ridiculous amount of turnovers, or pass the ball well out of the post.
He was, in essence, rebounding, and little else.

The question of value comes into play when discussing how much value rebounding actually has. I think it's very important, and I personally would put him in the Hall. But there is certainly an argument to be made on both sides, mostly to do with the appropriation of value.

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 03:39 PM
LOL. please don't think your point was that outstanding. it's just that I'm pretty much responding to everything.

Sorry I missed one?:eyebrow:

Anyway, how the heck is that point relevant? Carter has more all-star appearances than all of those players and he's only 32. He also has a higher scoring average than all of those players not only in his career overall, but in almost every single season of his career individually.

If anything, this list just shows how he's a cut above the borderline candidates, in consistency, scoring, and all-star perception. (Although I think All-Star votes are overrated, but that's another argument.)

Great point.. Carter's resume is clearly better than all of these players already at age 32. Exactly why he should be in the HOF at the end of the day. I don't care if the question is asking if carter's career ended today? Thats not really relevent.. cause his career is not ending today.. He still has about 6-8 years left.. And even it would end today.. i believe he would still be considered..

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 03:43 PM
Once Carter retires he will not really be remembered for being a winner. You can say he had no supporting cast, but he has played with some pretty good players in both Toronto and NJ.

He will likely be remebered for a few things:
1-slam dunk contest (exciting, but dee brown isn't in the HOF either)
2-the Toronto situation and his being traded. Whether or not it is fair, he will be remebered as a guy who admitted to quiting on his team and sulking. Not what gets you into the HOF.
3-Missing the clutch shot that could have defined his career against Philly in the playoffs.
4- A great scorer.

Yes, a good player. No, not a HOF. I am acutally surprised this is a topic of discussion. Carter really isn't even mentioned among the great players right now. A HOF player should at least remain relevant for most of his career. In reality, T-Mac is a more likely candidate, and I don't think he will get in either.

I have no idea how you believe tmac is a more likely candidate? We're talkinga bout a guy that has never goten out of the first round of playoffs.. with a great player like Yao Ming... A guy that has been injured pretty much every year for the last 5 years... A guy that is now washed up at what age 32? He had about 5-6 good seasons where he played for the most of it... NOw way.. If u guys say carter can't make it for those reasons.. then no way in hell is mcgrady a better candidate.

Sly Guy
01-08-2009, 03:47 PM
Okay, so my friend lost his ID so I have a minute.. Let me ask you a question.

What do you find more unprofessional, a history of terrible basketball mismanagement, or wanting to leave a situation of terrible basketball management?

It's like if your boss berates you every day, surrounds your office with incompetent workers, wonders why you're mad, and then gets upset when you want to join another company.

i wonder if anyone here has ever called in sick.

Ok, I've been reading these boards for months, and I actually registered because I couldn't stand on the sidelines and listen to this debate without putting in my $0.02. Before anything else, yes, I am a Torontonia, and if saying no makes me a homer, then so be it.

Carter does not belong in the hall of fame. Here's why:

#1 Offensively he has the numbers to put him in, but basketball is a two-way game, and he's only play one side of the ball his entire career.

#2 As a player who has mentally 'checked out' of the team he's played on and let his numbers slide in my mind has not shown the consistency required to be part of one of the most elite groups of people ever to play the game. Regardless of where that might have occurred.

But in response to the whole 'management issue', as an excuse to stop showing up to games, let me assure you, the organization in Toronto bent over backwards to keep Carter happy. Anyone in Toronto can cite the story of Carter demanding his mother be given a parking spot closer to the arena simply because he was the franchise player. He requested Hakeem, who signed only to retire, he was given too much input into the running of the team, whether it be coaches or players, and showed he was quite incapable of making those decisions.

No, ultimately those were not his calls to make, but it was part of how the team tried to keep him happy.

Carter was the adopted son of this city, and the fans felt betrayed when he chose to sulk the way he did. I think it's understandable. And why people here continue to boo him at every touch, even today.

Compare Carter to Mo Pete, for instance. Mo Pete wasn't happy being here toward the end. Sam didn't like him, so he was stuck with no minutes and a dimished role. But he still worked hard, still played to the best of his ability every time he was on the floor. The fans in Toronto recognize this, and he will always get a good reception whenever he comes to town because of that. That is what you should expect of your franchise player, the leader on your team.

And the teams Carter had were not completely terrible. Often times in the Davis, T-Mac etc days, you'd see how the team was already sacrificing itself to feed Carter shots. Hell out end of game playbook was a Carter isolation and watch him miss a 30 foot jumper.

And as for all the All Star appearances, well, just look. Most of the people who watch the game with any degree of regularity are unhappy with the current selection process for the all star game. When Someone like T-mac who's numbers are aweful this year makes the starting 5 out west, or if Grant Hill with screws in his ankles all year makes the team without playing a single game [forget the year that was], then isn't it probable that Carter has made all star team after all star team simply because of his dunk competition, and the fan support it generated? Com'on.

But in asking yourself if Carter's a hall of famer, ask yourself if you think T-mac is. the biggest knock on T-mac being his lack of playoff success. You could argue Carter has only had marginally better results, but T-Mac has played both ends of the floor, had more individual accolades, and although currently his numbers aren't as strong [being injury prone with legitimate injuries!!], they're probably in the same cast of talents that 'never was' all that they could have been.

My $0.02

superkegger
01-08-2009, 03:49 PM
LOL. please don't think your point was that outstanding. it's just that I'm pretty much responding to everything.

Sorry I missed one?:eyebrow:

Anyway, how the heck is that point relevant? Carter has more all-star appearances than all of those players and he's only 32. He also has a higher scoring average than all of those players not only in his career overall, but in almost every single season of his career individually.

If anything, this list just shows how he's a cut above the borderline candidates, in consistency, scoring, and all-star perception. (Although I think All-Star votes are overrated, but that's another argument.)

Yes his average is higher now, but what happens when he tries to hold on to the game to long, and his scoring average drops a few points, like it undoubtedly will, as it already is doing so.

Vince career high ppg is 27.5, thats pretty good.

But there are several guys who scored at a high level that I listed, Jeff Malone(6 seasons with 20+ ppg), Chris Mullin (5 straight seasons scoring 25+ppg), Lou Hudson (7 seasons of 20+ppg), Glen Rice (5 seasons of 20+ ppg), Mark Aguire (7 seasons of 20+ ppg), Gail Goodrich (6 seasons of 20+ ppg), Tom Chambers (5 seasons of 20+ ppg)

But 3 specifically I want to point out. These 3, are not a whole lot different than Vince, and really they're in the same class, great scorers. That's where it ends. Vince is a scorer, and so were these guys, and they're not in the hall, nor will Vince be.
World B Free (10 seasons fo 20+ ppg, including 30.2 in 79-80)
Mitch Richmond (10 seasons of 20+ ppg)
Bernard King (11 seasons of 20+ ppg, including 32.9 in 84-85)

You continue to claim Vince is a phenomenal player, and while he's a good player, he's never done anything remarkable as far as team achievements, he's never been recognized on an all NBA first team, never won an MVP, has never been deep into the post season, (just like those other 3 guys just mentioned) and really never in his career did anything of note other than score.

You can complain about him being on bad teams, and that's unfortunate for Vince. Just as is was unfortunae for Free, Mitch and King. Scoring alone doesn't get you into the HOF, and that's about all Vince has to tout, his scoring.

BowDown32
01-08-2009, 03:53 PM
All-Star votes count for absolutely nothing. It's riduculous you can even bring that up. Everybody and their momma votes for Vince because he could fly. That is not a reason to say someone should be an all-star. Let's look at REAL awards. All-NBA.

Vince has one 2nd team in 2000 and one 3rd team in 2001. LOL!!

Do you think that is HOF worthy or just because he has like 8 years in a row as an all-star because people vote him in? Give this up. Jason Kidd should make it WAAAY before he does because he plays the game the right way and leads his team. He has no championships either and harldy has these scoring #'s you people love so much. Boo this is making me frustrated you people worship this guy because he can dunk.

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 04:02 PM
All-Star votes count for absolutely nothing. It's riduculous you can even bring that up. Everybody and their momma votes for Vince because he could fly. That is not a reason to say someone should be an all-star. Let's look at REAL awards. All-NBA.

Vince has one 2nd team in 2000 and one 3rd team in 2001. LOL!!

Do you think that is HOF worthy or just because he has like 8 years in a row as an all-star because people vote him in? Give this up. Jason Kidd should make it WAAAY before he does because he plays the game the right way and leads his team. He has no championships either and harldy has these scoring #'s you people love so much. Boo this is making me frustrated you people worship this guy because he can dunk.

Uhmm? When was the last time carter made it to the all star team by winning a starting position? The last two or three times he amde it as a NEt.. he got chosen by the coaches... And that time where he did get all the fans votes... Yea he could fly and that might have helped.. but he would have made it regardless cause he was considered the game's best along with kobe and AI at that time.

ink
01-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Yes his average is higher now, but what happens when he tries to hold on to the game to long, and his scoring average drops a few points, like it undoubtedly will, as it already is doing so.

Vince career high ppg is 27.5, thats pretty good.

But there are several guys who scored at a high level that I listed, Jeff Malone(6 seasons with 20+ ppg), Chris Mullin (5 straight seasons scoring 25+ppg), Lou Hudson (7 seasons of 20+ppg), Glen Rice (5 seasons of 20+ ppg), Mark Aguire (7 seasons of 20+ ppg), Gail Goodrich (6 seasons of 20+ ppg), Tom Chambers (5 seasons of 20+ ppg)

But 3 specifically I want to point out. These 3, are not a whole lot different than Vince, and really they're in the same class, great scorers. That's where it ends. Vince is a scorer, and so were these guys, and they're not in the hall, nor will Vince be.
World B Free (10 seasons fo 20+ ppg, including 30.2 in 79-80)
Mitch Richmond (10 seasons of 20+ ppg)
Bernard King (11 seasons of 20+ ppg, including 32.9 in 84-85)

You continue to claim Vince is a phenomenal player, and while he's a good player, he's never done anything remarkable as far as team achievements, he's never been recognized on an all NBA first team, never won an MVP, has never been deep into the post season, (just like those other 3 guys just mentioned) and really never in his career did anything of note other than score.

You can complain about him being on bad teams, and that's unfortunate for Vince. Just as is was unfortunae for Free, Mitch and King. Scoring alone doesn't get you into the HOF, and that's about all Vince has to tout, his scoring.

Excellent post. So was the other one.

chicagowhitesox
01-08-2009, 04:27 PM
yes, mainly because of his reputation as the best dunker in nba history

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-08-2009, 04:41 PM
Yes his average is higher now, but what happens when he tries to hold on to the game to long, and his scoring average drops a few points, like it undoubtedly will, as it already is doing so.

Vince career high ppg is 27.5, thats pretty good.

But there are several guys who scored at a high level that I listed, Jeff Malone(6 seasons with 20+ ppg), Chris Mullin (5 straight seasons scoring 25+ppg), Lou Hudson (7 seasons of 20+ppg), Glen Rice (5 seasons of 20+ ppg), Mark Aguire (7 seasons of 20+ ppg), Gail Goodrich (6 seasons of 20+ ppg), Tom Chambers (5 seasons of 20+ ppg)

But 3 specifically I want to point out. These 3, are not a whole lot different than Vince, and really they're in the same class, great scorers. That's where it ends. Vince is a scorer, and so were these guys, and they're not in the hall, nor will Vince be.
World B Free (10 seasons fo 20+ ppg, including 30.2 in 79-80)
Mitch Richmond (10 seasons of 20+ ppg)
Bernard King (11 seasons of 20+ ppg, including 32.9 in 84-85)

You continue to claim Vince is a phenomenal player, and while he's a good player, he's never done anything remarkable as far as team achievements, he's never been recognized on an all NBA first team, never won an MVP, has never been deep into the post season, (just like those other 3 guys just mentioned) and really never in his career did anything of note other than score.

You can complain about him being on bad teams, and that's unfortunate for Vince. Just as is was unfortunae for Free, Mitch and King. Scoring alone doesn't get you into the HOF, and that's about all Vince has to tout, his scoring.

26. King, Bernard 874 7,830 3,972 22.5 19,655
27. RICHMOND, MITCH 875 7,000 4,376 22.4 19,639

Okay but these guys are 26th and 27th on the all time scoring list at the end of their career with about 19,600 points has their totals. Vince, at age 32, is already at about 17,500... Vince has already had 10 straight season of 20 plus ppg... I say vince will about 7 more year.. and score At least 8500 more points....and thats being fair.. it's an average of about 15 ppg and I certainly know carter will do better than that.. Which would put him at aroudn 26,000 which would then put him in the top 20 for scoring maybe even 15.... thats is how I feel.. and I think it's crazy to compare those 3 to vince.. cause he is far from done.. Now i know the question ask if carter's career ended today... and yea he would be borderline if his career ended today.. but the fact is that it is not endind today.... and he will play ... and I think become a HOF.

Tom81
01-08-2009, 04:43 PM
i like very much vince but i don't think so.

JIDsanity
01-08-2009, 04:52 PM
Yes, doesn't matter if he makes it or not either, cause in my eyes he will always be a HOF. No matter what any moron says

FunctionalAware
01-08-2009, 05:18 PM
i voted "yes" but...


the question is wil VC be in the hall...and to that, i answer yes.

SHOULD VC be in the hall is an entirely different story.

Stats wise, if he ended his career today, relative to current hall members, he belongs.

However I am a strong proponent of judging someone relative to the time they played. So stats wise, given the NBA stars of the last 15 or so years, he does not belong.

Since the latter argument, judging someone for the era they were in, is not how voters vote...he will probably make it hence my answer to the poll.

All of you that are complaining about his attitude or what went down with Toronto need to realize that overall he is a very good statesman for basketball and therefore his attitude will not keep him out of the hall

theuuord
01-08-2009, 05:21 PM
All-Star votes count for absolutely nothing. It's riduculous you can even bring that up. Everybody and their momma votes for Vince because he could fly. That is not a reason to say someone should be an all-star. Let's look at REAL awards. All-NBA.

Vince has one 2nd team in 2000 and one 3rd team in 2001. LOL!!

Do you think that is HOF worthy or just because he has like 8 years in a row as an all-star because people vote him in? Give this up. Jason Kidd should make it WAAAY before he does because he plays the game the right way and leads his team. He has no championships either and harldy has these scoring #'s you people love so much. Boo this is making me frustrated you people worship this guy because he can dunk.

Uh who is saying Jason Kidd ISN'T a Hall of Famer? He's probably the best point guard of all time, or at least top 3 with Magic and Stockton.

And please go back and read any of my arguments. They have absolutely nothing to do with dunking.

It's so interesting. Like I said before. It's all about automatic responses and unconscious thinking. People say "you worship him for dunking" before even reading the arguments because they're so cultured into doing so.
The psychology of these debates is so fascinating because of that.

superkegger
01-08-2009, 05:21 PM
http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/abouthofm.htm

Take what you will from these two sites, but at this point in Vince's career, No, absolutely not, he is not in the hall of fame, nor does it look like he will be if his current career trends hold steady.

pebloemer
01-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Uhmm? When was the last time carter made it to the all star team by winning a starting position? The last two or three times he amde it as a NEt.. he got chosen by the coaches... And that time where he did get all the fans votes... Yea he could fly and that might have helped.. but he would have made it regardless cause he was considered the game's best along with kobe and AI at that time.

That's not true there was at least one, if not two years where he hardly even played the first half of the season due to injuries and was voted in. I remember Barkley for one being irrate about it on TV and many other analysts agreed with the absurdity of him being in the starting lineup.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 05:25 PM
http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/abouthofm.htm

Take what you will from these two sites, but at this point in Vince's career, No, absolutely not, he is not in the hall of fame, nor does it look like he will be if his current career trends hold steady.

I'm on my way out the door, so I can't respond to all of your points (as I'm sure you're waiting for), but for what it's worth Carter's HoF probability is 0.907, which makes him a very very likely Hall of Famer.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

jibninja5000
01-08-2009, 05:31 PM
If vc, lawrence frank and devin "the blur" harris can rebuild the nets then he is.

lebron
vc
harris
brook lopez
...would be nice

ink
01-08-2009, 05:32 PM
That's not true there was at least one, if not two years where he hardly even played the first half of the season due to injuries and was voted in. I remember Barkley for one being irrate about it on TV and many other analysts agreed with the absurdity of him being in the starting lineup.

Didn't he eventually cave in to pressure to relinquish his All Star spot to MJ as a Wizard?


If vc, lawrence frank and devin "the blur" harris can rebuild the nets then he is.

lebron
vc
harris
brook lopez
...would be nice

Put LBJ on my team and they'd be good too. :p

Mman
01-08-2009, 05:39 PM
If I may quote carter "are you kidding me" (anyone watching a Raptor game last year will know what I am talking about)
He may get into the Canadian basketball HOF ,maybe as a builder? he did pretty much put basketball on the map in Canada and help promote it.but I am not sure if he would be eligible.

ink
01-08-2009, 05:46 PM
If I may quote carter "are you kidding me" (anyone watching a Raptor game last year will know what I am talking about)
He may get into the Canadian basketball HOF ,maybe as a builder? he did pretty much put basketball on the map in Canada and help promote it.but I am not sure if he would be eligible.

I forget what the "are you kidding me" refers to.

I thought it was the sight of Jorge Garbajosa wearing his old # 15. ;)

superkegger
01-08-2009, 05:56 PM
I'm on my way out the door, so I can't respond to all of your points (as I'm sure you're waiting for), but for what it's worth Carter's HoF probability is 0.907, which makes him a very very likely Hall of Famer.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

thats where I would disagree. His stats (per game as the HOF probability thing takes it into account) are likely to only decrease not increase, and at this point, his chances of winning an MVP for NBA championship are also pretty slim. I don't see his HOF monitor score rising much if at all, nor his probability going higher.

At the end of the day, they'll look at Vince, see his stats and see his lack of overall success and not vote him in.

Chronz
01-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Exactly, he's not much more than a scorer, which in the history of the NBA is pretty much, well, not all that special.

All these guys, good players and so on, scored the ball well, but they are not in the hall of fame, and quite frankly, Vince fits in well with them, which is not in the hall of fame.

Your putting him into the Jason Richardson category, since when was Vince JUST a scorer. Its funny you say that, my friend and I just got in alil exchange he was saying Vince is GREAT at running an offense, needless to say I had my own stance but the fact that you both have such contrasting opinions on him have me wondering your motive, why would you try to diminish his abilities? None of the guys you mentioned were as good a passer as Vince. But I digress



Look at guys like
Jeff Malone (2 time all star, 19ppg) .......
Yes lets,
Averages up to Vince's current age

PPG (TS%) REB% AST% USG% Off.RTG PER
V. Carter 23.8 (.538) 8.4 23.0 29.9 109 21.6
R.Blackman 19.2 (.559) 5.8 14.4 23.5 113 17.2
J. Malone 19.5 (.534) 4.4 12.1 25.2 108 15.3
J. Sikma 16.4 (.541) 16.8 13.7 20.9 109 17.8
L. Hudson 22.0 (.531) 6.1 12.6 18.0
E. Monroe 20.3 (.516) 4.7 17.1 17.4
C. Mullin 21.2 (.590) 6.9 16.8 23.3 115 19.3
M. Aquirre 21.1 (.542) 9.3 16.9 29.6 109 19.4
WB.Free 21.6 (.529) 4.9 19.2 29.2 110 19.1
G. Rice 19.7 (.556) 7.3 10.5 23.8 113 16.9
B. King 22.7 (.568) 9.7 14.9 27.1 108 19.3
M. Ritch 23.1 (.563) 6.3 17.5 26.4 111 18.1
R. Theus 19.9 (.545) 5.5 28.4 24.5 108 16.8


I know they have high scoring averages so maybe thats why you thought they would be comparable but most of those players are from the early 80's when the pace was at its highest in the modern era (3ptEra) so its a pretty bad list. Basically when you account for pace, Vince is still a superior scorer than those players, when you add the fact that all but 1 was a better passer and only 2 were better rebounders its getting more and more clear you dont know Vince's game at all, to call him JUST a scorer is a joke. Ill admit some of them may be close to Vince for a few seasons but overall Vince is clearly above them.

superkegger
01-08-2009, 06:13 PM
Your putting him into the Jason Richardson category, since when was Vince JUST a scorer. Its funny you say that, my friend and I just got in alil exchange he was saying Vince is GREAT at running an offense, needless to say I had my own stance but the fact that you both have such contrasting opinions on him have me wondering your motive, why would you try to diminish his abilities? None of the guys you mentioned were as good a passer as Vince. But I digress



Yes lets,
Averages up to Vince's current age

PPG (TS%) REB% AST% USG% Off.RTG PER
V. Carter 23.8 (.538) 8.4 23.0 29.9 109 21.6
R.Blackman 19.2 (.559) 5.8 14.4 23.5 113 17.2
J. Malone 19.5 (.534) 4.4 12.1 25.2 108 15.3
J. Sikma 16.4 (.541) 16.8 13.7 20.9 109 17.8
L. Hudson 22.0 (.531) 6.1 12.6 18.0
E. Monroe 20.3 (.516) 4.7 17.1 17.4
C. Mullin 21.2 (.590) 6.9 16.8 23.3 115 19.3
M. Aquirre 21.1 (.542) 9.3 16.9 29.6 109 19.4
WB.Free 21.6 (.529) 4.9 19.2 29.2 110 19.1
G. Rice 19.7 (.556) 7.3 10.5 23.8 113 16.9
B. King 22.7 (.568) 9.7 14.9 27.1 108 19.3
M. Ritch 23.1 (.563) 6.3 17.5 26.4 111 18.1
R. Theus 19.9 (.545) 5.5 28.4 24.5 108 16.8


I know they have high scoring averages so maybe thats why you thought they would be comparable but most of those players are from the early 80's when the pace was at its highest in the modern era (3ptEra) so its a pretty bad list. Basically when you account for pace, Vince is still a superior scorer than those players, when you add the fact that all but 1 was a better passer and only 2 were better rebounders its getting more and more clear you dont know Vince's game at all, to call him JUST a scorer is a joke. Ill admit some of them may be close to Vince for a few seasons but overall Vince is clearly above them.

Fair enough, but those guys stats include their entire career. While those stats for Vince don't include the backside of his career. And Vince, like every other player, will decline in his old age, and it will show in the stats.

Either which way, Vince still doesn't have the accomplishments and achievements to be considered for the hall, as I have previously pointed out.

Chronz
01-08-2009, 07:13 PM
Yes his average is higher now, but what happens when he tries to hold on to the game to long, and his scoring average drops a few points, like it undoubtedly will, as it already is doing so.

Vince career high ppg is 27.5, thats pretty good.


But there are several guys who scored at a high level that I listed, Jeff Malone(6 seasons with 20+ ppg),
Couldnt rebound or score in an era that boosted the per game averages of both, and as decent as he was, he never truly elevated his game in the playoffs the way Vince did. Subjectively the only true award (Not counting AS Selections) recognition he got was an All-Rookie appearance. You cant seriously think Vince is in his class.


Chris Mullin (5 straight seasons scoring 25+ppg),
Ill give you that Mullin had a 6 year stretch in which he either posted big scoring numbers or insanely high efficiency marks and became one of the best shooters later in his career but even at his best Vince was still the better passer/rebounder/defender besides Mullin had his fair share of injury troubles. He was perhaps well on his way into the HOF, but the later stages of his career dont match up to Vince's and longevity does play a factor in all of this. And again, his playoff performances cant touch Vince's. Though in all seriousness Mullin should be in the HOF, at the very least for his collegiate and international play.


Lou Hudson (7 seasons of 20+ppg),
The most ridiculous of comparisons, Hudson played in the late 60's till almost the early 80's, you cannot find a more faster paced era, Vince wouldve averaged 30+ in the same environment. He was a good player for his era, but Vince good? Cmon


Glen Rice (5 seasons of 20+ ppg),
Same boat as Mullin, great shooter/scorer with high efficiency marks but was slow laterally with zero playoff success with only 2 years played at a truly high level.


Mark Aguire (7 seasons of 20+ ppg),
To go with 6 years of crap, no longevity no comparison at age 32 VC is dropping sick numbers Mark was barely clearing double digits.


Gail Goodrich (6 seasons of 20+ ppg),
Now this one is unfair, I actually think he could be in the HOF but nonetheless isnt on VC's level for the same reasons as your other 60's mentioned players. Look if your going to take players from that era the least you could do is use players that more than surpassed Vinces RAW production. When you account for pace VC just demolishes him.


Tom Chambers (5 seasons of 20+ ppg)
One of my bastard of a dad favorite players, that alone DQ's him. Well that and the fact that hes a poor rebounder for his position.



But 3 specifically I want to point out. These 3, are not a whole lot different than Vince, and really they're in the same class, great scorers. That's where it ends. Vince is a scorer, and so were these guys, and they're not in the hall, nor will Vince be.

Good because none of the prior mentioned players can even touch Vince.




World B Free (10 seasons fo 20+ ppg, including 30.2 in 79-80)
A great player from age 25-32, only made the playoffs from ages 22-24, and twice in his 30's. Basically in his prime he was just a high scorer on teams that werent good enough to make the playoffs. Career journeyman definitely not on VC level, legacy wise. Atleast Vince was good enough to get his teams to the playoffs.


Mitch Richmond (10 seasons of 20+ ppg)
Again played mostly on those bad Sacramento teams, MJ once called him one of the most skilled players he ever went up against, sadly never got the chance to prove himself in the postseason as the leader of his team, when he did make the postseason it was either as the 3rd fiddle on the Run TMC squads or out of his prime.


Bernard King (11 seasons of 20+ ppg, including 32.9 in 84-85)

A class above World.B, journey man who put up high scoring averages on mostly bad teams. But in his prime was good enough to be an MVP contender but injuries were more problematic for him than they were for Vince. Had King stayed healthy his career wouldve been much different and worthy of HOF praise but as it stands Vince's longevity places him on a higher pedestal IMO but yes this was a great comparison.


You continue to claim Vince is a phenomenal player, and while he's a good player, he's never done anything remarkable as far as team achievements, he's never been recognized on an all NBA first team, never won an MVP, has never been deep into the post season, (just like those other 3 guys just mentioned) and really never in his career did anything of note other than score.
You can complain about him being on bad teams, and that's unfortunate for Vince. Just as is was unfortunae for Free, Mitch and King. Scoring alone doesn't get you into the HOF, and that's about all Vince has to tout, his scoring.

True, alot of what you said was dead on but when Vince did make the postseason it was because he carried weaker teams and was more instrumental in whatever amount of success they did have. None of the players you mentioned ever pulled off the job Vince did in his first stint with NJ and neither came into the league and dominated from day 1, and whenever your comparing players All-NBA achievements you have to consider the competition at the position. Whether King was better than Vince in his prime is a no brainer, but ask yourself. Had King stayed healthy wouldnt his career have gone much differently? Vince atleast had a more sustained level of play than King. But this does deserve a deeper analysis.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 07:14 PM
Fair enough, but those guys stats include their entire career. While those stats for Vince don't include the backside of his career. And Vince, like every other player, will decline in his old age, and it will show in the stats.

Either which way, Vince still doesn't have the accomplishments and achievements to be considered for the hall, as I have previously pointed out.

No they don't. Unless I'm wildly mistaken, those are stats for each of those players taken through age 32, which is exactly where Vince is now. He is head and shoulders above that pack.

(And me personally, I would argue that Mitch Richmond should be in the Hall at the very least, but that's just personal bias since I grew up with him as my favorite player.)

Chronz
01-08-2009, 07:15 PM
Fair enough, but those guys stats include their entire career. While those stats for Vince don't include the backside of his career. And Vince, like every other player, will decline in his old age, and it will show in the stats.

Either which way, Vince still doesn't have the accomplishments and achievements to be considered for the hall, as I have previously pointed out.

No they dont, Ive listed the players contributions up to the same age as Vince's current age. In other words at the pace hes going, he will easily surpass them.

superkegger
01-08-2009, 08:09 PM
No they dont, Ive listed the players contributions up to the same age as Vince's current age. In other words at the pace hes going, he will easily surpass them.

The ppg, and hall of fame consideration/probability has taken the entire career of the other guys, and with the HOF monitor score, the bar is set at about 135 nowadays, which Vince is off of, because like has been said, his scoring has been great, and he's good in other area's he has never really even been in MVP talks and never been in the playoffs. You jab at World B and Bernard King as well as mitch for lack of playoffs, but Vince only has played in 42 playoff games himself, which itself is an inflated number since 1st round series are now 7 games.

Vince has been a good player, but he's simply not great. His resume doesn't warrant the Hall of Fame.

Lakers4ItAll
01-08-2009, 08:14 PM
No way. You don't get in the HOF by being a great dunker or making the allstar team alot.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 08:21 PM
The ppg, and hall of fame consideration/probability has taken the entire career of the other guys, and with the HOF monitor score, the bar is set at about 135 nowadays, which Vince is off of, because like has been said, his scoring has been great, and he's good in other area's he has never really even been in MVP talks and never been in the playoffs. You jab at World B and Bernard King as well as mitch for lack of playoffs, but Vince only has played in 42 playoff games himself, which itself is an inflated number since 1st round series are now 7 games.

Vince has been a good player, but he's simply not great. His resume doesn't warrant the Hall of Fame.

Ummm... The points per game in that grid are up until each of those players at 32.
They are not their career points per game.

theuuord
01-08-2009, 08:22 PM
No way. You don't get in the HOF by being a great dunker or making the allstar team alot.

Thanks for that, because those are the only two reasons anyone has been arguing that Vince is a Hall of Famer.

:pity:

Lakers4ItAll
01-08-2009, 08:48 PM
I don't care what people are arguing VC is NOT a Hall of Famer

theuuord
01-08-2009, 08:49 PM
I don't care what people are arguing VC is NOT a Hall of Famer

Another great point.
You really brought that one home.
I think it was capitalizing the "NOT", which shows that you mean business.

I surrender!

superkegger
01-08-2009, 08:57 PM
Ummm... The points per game in that grid are up until each of those players at 32.
They are not their career points per game.

those aren't the ppg I am refering to. I'm talking about the basketball reference numbers and the numbers I put up.

Either way, let me just summarize why I think Vince is NOT a HOFer, because I've said it in a couple posts, and I feel like I'm just repeating myself.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/le...leadershof.htm

http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/abouthofm.htm

These two sites, (one in the same really) explain exactly what makes a career HOF worthy.

Here's how the HOF monitor works.


The Hall of Fame Monitor is a formula with six components. It is meant to be used as a guide and not as a hard and fast rule. There are some players who do very well according to the formula and are not in the hall of fame, but for the most part this formula is a good scale.

75 points for each NBA MVP award
15 points for each All NBA First Team selection
1 point for each point of NBA career Approximate Value and .33 points for each point of ABA career Approximate Value
2.5 points for each point of NBA career Efficiency
3.5 points for each NBA Championship

Vince has no MVP's no First team selections, and no Championships, the 3 most highly valued things on the list.

Now, lets talk about Approximate Value, which is somewhat confusing.

Here's what databasebasketball says



Approximate Value (AV) was developed by Dean Oliver. You can read more about this formula and more at this website: http://www.powerbasketball.com/theywin2.html

Here is a quick synopsis of AV values


Credits= PTS+REB+AST+STL+BLK-FG MISSED-FT MISSED-TO

AV= Credits^(3/4)/21

The Value Approximation Method was a major task to come up with, taking me about two months to finally arrive at satisfactory results. The plan for the method was to end up with a scale of integers between 0 and about 20 rating players, with 10 representing an 'average' player. It was to be based upon several standards a player was to meet in order to gain points of approximate value. The whole thing was modeled on Bill James' Value Approximation method for baseball. As James did, I assigned verbal descriptions to ranges of scores in order to see if the method produced results that matched general descriptions of players. Those descriptions are as follows:

He then explains what the AV rankings mean


A score of about twenty indicates an exceptional MVP season.
A score of seventeen or eighteen indicates a strong MVP candidate or an ordinary MVP season.
A score of sixteen indicates an MVP candidate.
A score of fifteen indicates a definite All-Star who is a marginal MVP candidate.
A score of fourteen indicates a probable All-Star.
A score of thirteen indicates a marginal All-Star.
A score of twelve indicates a very fine season; an All-Star candidate.
A score of eleven indicates an above average regular; an excellent player playing about 1800 minutes.
A score of ten indicates an average regular or a very good sixth man.

Now, AV isn't the end all of who makes the hall, but it is something taken into accoung, and Vince's highest AV score was 13.7, or a marginal to probably all star, and his career AV is 63.7, which is nothing extraordinary.

His HOF Monitor score is 117, which is short, not by a ton, but still short. Now, he could very well end up above 135 (which is the "benchmark"), but that also doesn't guaruntee it.

Vince has had a long and good career. But while the stats are good, they are not great, and at the end of the day, stats are pretty much all he has. Has he done some good things on the court, for sure, but by no means could you call it great. Which is what it should take to get into the HOF. If we let just good players into the hall, then it loses its meaning and it no longer becomes special.

Vince's lack of accomplishments, like any kind of deep run into the playoffs, any kind of MVP consideration, and the lack of any frist team all NBA awards is what will keep him out of the hall.

I'm just goint to leave it at that, because I'm confident in my assertion that Vince will not be in the Hall of Fame, and that while he was a good player, he will just fade away and his legacy will be that of a great dunker and scorer. It's not all there was to his game, but when you never make a serious impact on the game, it's hard to remember him for anything else.

Lakers4ItAll
01-08-2009, 09:10 PM
If you knew anything about the NBA you would know VC is not going to be in the HOF, simple as that.

Besides Superkegger just summed it all up for you guys who think VC is HOF material


Another great point.
You really brought that one home.
I think it was capitalizing the "NOT", which shows that you mean business.

I surrender!

ink
01-08-2009, 09:15 PM
^^ OK let's keep the personal out of it both of you. Thanks.

lorenz00
01-08-2009, 11:24 PM
hell no i will never consider carter as a hall of fame his a quiter!!!

Kyle916
01-08-2009, 11:59 PM
Electrifying.

Not HOF worthy.

iwish7284
01-09-2009, 12:19 AM
heffer or hofer?

GodsSon
01-09-2009, 04:06 AM
Thanks for that, because those are the only two reasons anyone has been arguing that Vince is a Hall of Famer.

:pity:

fact of the matter here is the guy has not accomplished jack throughout his career, whether those accomplishments be team-oriented or individual. lets take a look...

individual accomplishments

0 scoring titles
0 MVP's
0 all NBA 1st team selections
0 rings
0 conference finals/finals
0 DPOY...the guy never could play D anyway lol
1 ROY trophy
1 2nd all nba team
1 3rd all nba team
8 all-star appearances

seems to me that the most important prerequisites to get into the HOF are all goose-eggs for vincent. Plus, any notion you had to refute with "well he played with **** players or on **** teams...", well all of the important individual honours in the league have somehow eluded him throughout his career; thus proving he IS NOT a HOF player.

Chronz
01-09-2009, 09:17 AM
The ppg, and hall of fame consideration/probability has taken the entire career of the other guys, and with the HOF monitor score, the bar is set at about 135 nowadays, which Vince is off of, because like has been said, his scoring has been great, and he's good in other area's he has never really even been in MVP talks and never been in the playoffs.
Let me start by saying DBBball isnt as credible as B-R when it comes to statistical algorithms but even I find the idea of making a formula for the HOF chances abit of a stretch. Ill explain this now so I can reference it in your other post, can you explain the point of setting arbitrary values to subjective awards? Not every championship won is worth the same as every other. Measuring a players statistical value with EFF is considered by most stat heads as incomplete without needing to be. Its on the right path its just not there yet.

The entire foundation of their logic is flawed, a player shouldnt be one season be eligible for the HOF and then after a few years of playing too long past his prime get punished for it. A similar example is like following the train of thought that punishes Michael Jordan for coming back a Wizard, I thought what the man did at such an advanced age only built towards his legacy. I do think the longer a player stays dominant should be rewarded so its not like I totally disagree I just find it needless to break it down with uneducated estimations of values.


You jab at World B and Bernard King as well as mitch for lack of playoffs, but Vince only has played in 42 playoff games himself, which itself is an inflated number since 1st round series are now 7 games.

I dont see how it could be an inflated number as each game is indeed a playoff game. Part of being a playoff performer is repeated trips to the post season, in their dominant stages as players World took his team to a single playoff birth, it was on a 36 win Cavs team, Larry and co made quick work of them.

As for King, well like I said he was well on his way to a first ballot HOF career, he was alot like Vince in how they fell off but both stood the test of time, but by the same standard applied to Free, King was a dominant contributor on 2NY Playoff teams and once for a lowly Nets team. Vince was a dominant contributor on more playoff teams and played the greatest role in carrying a few of them there.



Vince has been a good player, but he's simply not great. His resume doesn't warrant the Hall of Fame.
His resume isnt impressive if your measuring a players worth by his NBA "accolades" like 1st teamers, but if your measuring it mostly on level of play then tell me how he doesnt deserves the merit.


those aren't the ppg I am refering to. I'm talking about the basketball reference numbers and the numbers I put up.
Either way, let me just summarize why I think Vince is NOT a HOFer, because I've said it in a couple posts, and I feel like I'm just repeating myself.
http://www.databasebasketball.com/le...leadershof.htm
http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/abouthofm.htm
These two sites, (one in the same really) explain exactly what makes a career HOF worthy.
Here's how the HOF monitor works.
Vince has no MVP's no First team selections, and no Championships, the 3 most highly valued things on the list.
Arbitrary values based on ???


Now, lets talk about Approximate Value, which is somewhat confusing.

Here's what databasebasketball says
He then explains what the AV rankings mean

Its not all that confusing, its basically a dumbed down version of PER



Now, AV isn't the end all of who makes the hall, but it is something taken into accoung, and Vince's highest AV score was 13.7, or a marginal to probably all star, and his career AV is 63.7, which is nothing extraordinary.

It says it was developed by Dean Oliver yet on the site they link it to it says Martin Manley, anyways its an efficiency stat like any other, only this one doesnt explain the logic behind the values.


His HOF Monitor score is 117, which is short, not by a ton, but still short. Now, he could very well end up above 135 (which is the "benchmark"), but that also doesn't guaruntee it.

Look at BBR HOF probability model, they rank Vince fairly high. We should look elsewhere for our career breakdowns.



Vince has had a long and good career. But while the stats are good, they are not great, and at the end of the day, stats are pretty much all he has. Has he done some good things on the court, for sure, but by no means could you call it great. Which is what it should take to get into the HOF. If we let just good players into the hall, then it loses its meaning and it no longer becomes special.

The HOF has already become a joke, lesser players have gone in and more deserving players have gotten shafted. But the historical ranking of a player is always up for debate, and Vince vs Free/King is in VC favor.


Vince's lack of accomplishments, like any kind of deep run into the playoffs, any kind of MVP consideration, and the lack of any frist team all NBA awards is what will keep him out of the hall.

Possibly, but I remember a member bringing up a very valid thread regarding Vince's lack of awards. Shaq only has 1 MVP, thats selling his ability short and the type of player he was. Such is the case with Vince, the competition at the position was fierce and he was always in the same breath as those guys.

hades
01-09-2009, 10:13 AM
yep.... with the hall of winers

mlisica19
01-09-2009, 11:04 AM
If Vince ends his career today...

He will not deserve to make the Basketball Hall of Fame!

Yes he has played in an impressive 8 all star games but most of it has come from his spectacular dunking. Hes not a legendary player just one of lifes best entertainers.

He has had less than 25 PPG, 5 APG, and 5 RPG in his career... No Rings, One Gold (and on a USA team thats not very impressive). Trouble with in Toronto only 5 playoffs appearances... NOt so impressive when you overlook his dunking talent. And im pretty sure he hasnt even reached the finals in his whole career.His playoff stats dont differ much either from his seasonal!

So im SOrray Carter fans but he doesnt really belong in the HOF.


In order for me to believe he deserves it, he must:

Boost his stats over 5 R/APG and have his PPG over 26.
Make the playoffs at least 3 more times
Make the all star game at least 2 more times
NOW THIS IS JUST A LIL more REASONABLE accomplishments that can be done but im pretty he needs a RING. ITS A HUGE FACTOR...

mlisica19
01-09-2009, 11:08 AM
Now do not get me wrong, im a NETS FAN.. And Carter is a good player and great athlete and a spectacular entertainer...

And he grew up alot in the pros, he changed from a kid to a man especially when he was traded. Hes a great asset to the Nets but Hes just not a HOF in my eyes as of now.

JJ81
01-09-2009, 11:08 AM
Dunkin' ain't enough

canzano55
01-09-2009, 11:45 AM
No, for his accomplishments as a basketball player and to recognize his ability.

Jesus.
Dude are you a Nets fan or something?

I wonder if all or most Nets fans are actually happy with Vince eating up 15 million in cap space? And if they are, no wonder anybody gives a damn about that team anymore.

keithm320
01-09-2009, 12:03 PM
he needs to get to 25,000 points to get consideration...because you know they're not inducting him based on his defensive prowless or heart

theuuord
01-09-2009, 02:28 PM
Dude are you a Nets fan or something?

I wonder if all or most Nets fans are actually happy with Vince eating up 15 million in cap space? And if they are, no wonder anybody gives a damn about that team anymore.

I am a Nets fan but that has nothing to do with Vince deserving the Hall.

theuuord
01-09-2009, 02:29 PM
Dunkin' ain't enough

Oh my God.

People just don't know how to read threads.

td0tsfinest
01-09-2009, 02:33 PM
no way. I'm not saying this because I'm a raptors fan, he hasn't done anything thats great. His biggest accomplishment is probably winning the slam dunk competition and if that puts you in the HOF; than I guess both Nate Robinson and Gerald Green are HOF bound. He's a great player and has revolutionized dunking in the nba, but he's a not a winner and he's not tops in anything all time.

Saltinuts40
01-09-2009, 02:43 PM
Do you think Vince Carter, if his career ended today, would be inducted

He's not even an All-Star anymore. He was never the most dominant player in his league or his division, he had one year in Toronto, and he is too selfish a player to be in the Hall of Fame.

He could make the dunk Hall of Fame.

Lakers4ItAll
01-09-2009, 02:54 PM
VC=Overrated

theuuord
01-09-2009, 03:01 PM
lol @ the only argument anyone is saying against Vince anymore is that he's a great dunker

like that somehow takes away from his legacy.

lol @ NOBODY arguing Vince should be in the Hall because of his dunking abilities.

It's a weird world we live in.

carter15
01-09-2009, 03:07 PM
Dude are you a Nets fan or something?

I wonder if all or most Nets fans are actually happy with Vince eating up 15 million in cap space? And if they are, no wonder anybody gives a damn about that team anymore.


He's not even an All-Star anymore. He was never the most dominant player in his league or his division, he had one year in Toronto, and he is too selfish a player to be in the Hall of Fame.

He could make the dunk Hall of Fame.


VC=Overrated

do u guys no anything about basketball...so many ppl r so stuck on hearing that he quit on the raptors and they think it applies everywhere he goes for the rest of his career.

firstly vince right now is earning his 15 million dollar paycheck...hes playing at an extremely high level and the only reason nets fans wudnt want him right now is cuz theyd rather rebuild

next..hes not an allstar?! have u looked at his ****in numbers...this hate is starting to piss me off...u gus dont no wtf ur talking about and just saying anything...hes avg 23 4.9 and 4.7 this yr...u cant tell me those are not all star numbers.....and saying hes SELFISH...i bet hes top 5 in assists for SG's over the past 2 years..hes probly even top 3...but i dont no forsure..so ill leave it at top 5....the guy is NOT selfish..hes probly one of the more unselfish guys ull c around the NBA nowadays...i was watching the nets raptors game..and the raptors commentators kept saying how usnselfish vince is as a player and how he thinks he wuda been a great compliment to bosh had he stayed and not held up bosh's developement.

and finally overrated?!?!...hes so ****in underrated nowadays cuz of ppl lik u and ur 2 buddies over here who hate on vince....hes so much better then most ppl think..cuz everyone wont let the one event go when he was with the raptors

its freakin sickening to hear things lik this from people who CLAIM their basketball fans...if they were theyd no the kinda player vince is ....HOF worthy or not is not what im disputing..just all these ignorant comments i keep seeing...its so frustrating.

ink
01-09-2009, 03:10 PM
its freakin sickening to hear things lik this from people who CLAIM their basketball fans...if they were theyd no the kinda player vince is ....HOF worthy or not is not what im disputing..just all these ignorant comments i keep seeing...its so frustrating.

Relax. There have been lots of good posts making the case for both sides. Don't insult other fans just because they don't see things your way. Several of the fans you're dissing are very good posters.

Lakers4ItAll
01-09-2009, 03:11 PM
LOL VC past proves how he is overratted. He is at best a 2nd option now and not anywhere near a HOF player

GodsSon
01-09-2009, 03:11 PM
lol @ the only argument anyone is saying against Vince anymore is that he's a great dunker

like that somehow takes away from his legacy.

lol @ NOBODY arguing Vince should be in the Hall because of his dunking abilities.

It's a weird world we live in.

lol you keep referring to "his legacy", my question to you is...what legacy does he have? As i pointed out in my previous post, the guy has accomplished essentially NOTHING in 11 seasons, be it individual or team accolades. Should VC retire right now he will probably be remembered by the majority of people for 2 things...1) the display at the dunk contest 8 years ago, and 2) his dunk over Weis in the olympics. Those are the positives.

Apart from that, the "what if" label will forever be stamped on his name; and that is what he will be remembered for.

theuuord
01-09-2009, 03:18 PM
lol you keep referring to "his legacy", my question to you is...what legacy does he have? As i pointed out in my previous post, the guy has accomplished essentially NOTHING in 11 seasons, be it individual or team accolades. Should VC retire right now he will probably be remembered by the majority of people for 2 things...1) the display at the dunk contest 8 years ago, and 2) his dunk over Weis in the olympics. Those are the positives.

Apart from that, the "what if" label will forever be stamped on his name; and that is what he will be remembered for.

He's accomplished nothing in 11 seasons? Dude, the Raptors were NOTHING before Vince. They were a joke. In fact, when he was on the team, outside of him, they WERE a joke. They were a team of nobodies and Vince Carter.

He carried a team with freaking Antonio Davis as a second option to the second round of the playoffs. Are you kidding me? How unbelievable is that?
Look at his 2000-2001 season and tell me what he did wasn't remarkable.

That's just one PART of his legacy. I'd go deeper into it but my lady is coming over soon.

Seriously, just... look at the facts. They won't bite, I promise.

carter15
01-09-2009, 03:20 PM
Relax. There have been lots of good posts making the case for both sides. Don't insult other fans just because they don't see things your way. Several of the fans you're dissing are very good posters.

i agree some posters make good points..i was just referring to the 3 i had quoted.....its not seeing things my way i want..its just lik if i said kobe=overrated for the sole purpose to piss kobe fans off...thats what it seems lik some ppl r doing...cuz there arguments are senseless and not backed with nething....lik saying vince is selfish...when he clearly isnt a selfish player...u cant even prove hes a selfish player...their just throwing nething out there.

DocUSN
01-09-2009, 03:21 PM
Look he has identical career numbers as paul pierce minus the ring and finals MVP.
He has identical numbers to Tmac (Career Totals)

He has done nothing speacial, he is a product of the game shifting to the wings from bigs, hes talented but benifited form rule changes that benifitd all wings. He as of now (which was the question) is not HOF material.

Gibby23
01-09-2009, 03:22 PM
He will make it when It is all said and done, I just hope he gets traded to a good team so we can see him play and go deep into the playoffs or to the finals.

ink
01-09-2009, 03:24 PM
i agree some posters make good points..i was just referring to the 3 i had quoted.....its not seeing things my way i want..its just lik if i said kobe=overrated for the sole purpose to piss kobe fans off...thats what it seems lik some ppl r doing...cuz there arguments are senseless and not backed with nething....lik saying vince is selfish...when he clearly isnt a selfish player...u cant even prove hes a selfish player...their just throwing nething out there.

There's always a variety of responses in a thread. I know for a fact that canzano (for example) is a very good poster. You can't make assumptions. Look, you can't just look selectively at the NJ years, just as others can't look selectively at the Raptors years. You have to weigh both. I've seen several posters in here do that on both sides. Anyway, it's just a basketball player we're talking about. It's not serious enough to fight over.

carter15
01-09-2009, 03:26 PM
Look he has identical career numbers as paul pierce minus the ring and finals MVP.
He has identical numbers to Tmac (Career Totals)

He has done nothing speacial, he is a product of the game shifting to the wings from bigs, hes talented but benifited form rule changes that benifitd all wings. He as of now (which was the question) is not HOF material.
i dont get how is his fault that his GM didnt acquire KG and ray allen...i no rings are important when evaluating a player...but u need a TEAM to get a ring...its not often u see an individual carry a team full of crappy players to a championship.

ink
01-09-2009, 03:27 PM
he is a product of the game shifting to the wings from bigs ...

Good point.

GodsSon
01-09-2009, 03:28 PM
He's accomplished nothing in 11 seasons? Dude, the Raptors were NOTHING before Vince. They were a joke. In fact, when he was on the team, outside of him, they WERE a joke. They were a team of nobodies and Vince Carter.

He carried a team with freaking Antonio Davis as a second option to the second round of the playoffs. Are you kidding me? How unbelievable is that?
Look at his 2000-2001 season and tell me what he did wasn't remarkable.

That's just one PART of his legacy. I'd go deeper into it but my lady is coming over soon.

Seriously, just... look at the facts. They won't bite, I promise.

LOL i like how you say thats one part, but dont delve into anything else...possibly because there isnt anything? lol

did he establish the Raptors organization as a household name? absolutely...but im pretty sure that doesnt facillitate into HOF entry. As other people have stated, apart from his scoring ability, the guy has done nothing in terms of NBA success. I would think for someone you claim to be such a phenomenal scorer he would have at least 1 scoring title, but he doesnt. VC is just one of many athletes who was blessed with amazing talent and athleticism, and he probably could have been one of the best ever; unfortunately, his penchant to not work hard enough and elevate his game instead of relying on his athleticism (thompson interview) got him caught in the mud. Face it, the guy hasnt been relevant since maybe 04-05 after he was traded, and all you keep proving with your posts is you're a VC stan who cant accept criticism from others about a player you obviously adore.

carter15
01-09-2009, 03:28 PM
There's always a variety of responses in a thread. I know for a fact that canzano (for example) is a very good poster. You can't make assumptions. Look, you can't just look selectively at the NJ years, just as others can't look selectively at the Raptors years. You have to weigh both. I've seen several posters in here do that on both sides. Anyway, it's just a basketball player we're talking about. It's not serious enough to fight over.

well if someone disrespects my favorite basketball player or team..im gonna defend them.

carter15
01-09-2009, 03:30 PM
he is a product of the game shifting to the wings from bigs,

i guess that applies to pierce,kobe,lebron,tmac,wade, etc..

carter15
01-09-2009, 03:31 PM
im gonna be bk in an hour or 2...try to save some for later :P

ink
01-09-2009, 03:34 PM
i guess that applies to pierce,kobe,lebron,tmac,wade, etc..

I think it does apply to them actually. There's a difference though. Pierce, Kobe, and Wade have seriously proven themselves, and Lebron is on the way. He's far out of VC's league. Anyway, this isn't a comparison thread, so let's not get derailed.

DocUSN
01-09-2009, 03:40 PM
i dont get how is his fault that his GM didnt acquire KG and ray allen...i no rings are important when evaluating a player...but u need a TEAM to get a ring...its not often u see an individual carry a team full of crappy players to a championship.

No, it is not his fault, but he has done nothing statiscly great (Look at the wings the last ten years at this point in thier career very very similiar.)

And nothing great in the big area: Winning.

Now blame the second on managment, ok you don't always get the situation you want in life, No one dreams of being a garbage man, but people do it.


Good point.
Thank you



well if someone disrespects my favorite basketball player or team..im gonna defend them.
Cool, I understand, but keep it in prespective.


i guess that applies to pierce,kobe,lebron,tmac,wade, etc..
Yes it dose, and the decline of bigs as well, remember when we had dominate centers and they were not rare? Ewing The dream, David Robinson, Shaq ect ect. The game changed.

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-09-2009, 03:41 PM
LOL i like how you say thats one part, but dont delve into anything else...possibly because there isnt anything? lol

did he establish the Raptors organization as a household name? absolutely...but im pretty sure that doesnt facillitate into HOF entry. As other people have stated, apart from his scoring ability, the guy has done nothing in terms of NBA success. I would think for someone you claim to be such a phenomenal scorer he would have at least 1 scoring title, but he doesnt. VC is just one of many athletes who was blessed with amazing talent and athleticism, and he probably could have been one of the best ever; unfortunately, his penchant to not work hard enough and elevate his game instead of relying on his athleticism (thompson interview) got him caught in the mud. Face it, the guy hasnt been relevant since maybe 04-05 after he was traded, and all you keep proving with your posts is you're a VC stan who cant accept criticism from others about a player you obviously adore.

Wow ? how about all you keep proving is that your a VC hater that cant accept the fact that he has been one of the best players of the genration. Your one of thosem many many many people.. that still look at VC from his time in toronto. All u see iss Oo "he wanted out of toronto" he "quit" on them... So no matter what he does... No matter if he averages liek 25.. 5.. and 5 thoughtout the rest of his years.. hE just not relevant right?
How is he not relevant since he left? Hes made the palyoffs three times.. NOt to mentino that one time with the nets when he first came over.. he took the nets from being in last place.. to first on the last day of the season.. He averaged about 35ppg for like a 10 day stretch... And brought probably the worst roster in NBA history into the playoffs... You say hes not relevant? when he was one of the only three players in the nBA last year to average 20 points, 5reb, 5 ast... along with Kobe, and lebron ( only the two best players in the game).. oooo but hes not relevant right? Look at what hes doing this year.. Captain of a team that was predicted to be in last place! one of the rawest youngest, most unexperienced teams in the Nba... he has that 18-18 fighting within playoff contention.. NOt to metion hes putting probably the 3rd best numbers out of all the SG's in the game. .. And deserves to be an all star... O year i think he had a 2,000 point season after he got traded as well.... BUt no no wait.. he hasn't been relevant since the trade? WOww.........

carter15
01-09-2009, 05:15 PM
I think it does apply to them actually. There's a difference though. Pierce, Kobe, and Wade have seriously proven themselves, and Lebron is on the way. He's far out of VC's league. Anyway, this isn't a comparison thread, so let's not get derailed.

lol i no some of those guys are out of vc's league ..but im not trying to make it a comparason thread..but if u use the logic that its a "wingman" game...then its hard to compare anyone from this generation to previous ones....im also really young so i dont know what it was lik 10-15 years ago but id think its more a wingman game because thats just where most of the talent is right now....kinda hard to explain.

DocUSN
01-09-2009, 05:18 PM
lol i no some of those guys are out of vc's league ..but im not trying to make it a comparason thread..but if u use the logic that its a "wingman" game...then its hard to compare anyone from this generation to previous ones....im also really young so i dont know what it was lik 10-15 years ago but id think its more a wingman game because thats just where most of the talent is right now....kinda hard to explain.

Its more of a wing game now because of rule changes in the 90's that favored wing players. possibly because of the talent, but look at bigs now 90% are not dump it in the paint bigs, they are atheltic with range. The rule changes hurt the pure post player.

Lakers4ItAll
01-09-2009, 05:31 PM
LMAO!!!! wow......


Wow ? how about all you keep proving is that your a VC hater that cant accept the fact that he has been one of the best players of the genration. Your one of thosem many many many people.. that still look at VC from his time in toronto. All u see iss Oo "he wanted out of toronto" he "quit" on them... So no matter what he does... No matter if he averages liek 25.. 5.. and 5 thoughtout the rest of his years.. hE just not relevant right?
How is he not relevant since he left? Hes made the palyoffs three times.. NOt to mentino that one time with the nets when he first came over.. he took the nets from being in last place.. to first on the last day of the season.. He averaged about 35ppg for like a 10 day stretch... And brought probably the worst roster in NBA history into the playoffs... You say hes not relevant? when he was one of the only three players in the nBA last year to average 20 points, 5reb, 5 ast... along with Kobe, and lebron ( only the two best players in the game).. oooo but hes not relevant right? Look at what hes doing this year.. Captain of a team that was predicted to be in last place! one of the rawest youngest, most unexperienced teams in the Nba... he has that 18-18 fighting within playoff contention.. NOt to metion hes putting probably the 3rd best numbers out of all the SG's in the game. .. And deserves to be an all star... O year i think he had a 2,000 point season after he got traded as well.... BUt no no wait.. he hasn't been relevant since the trade? WOww.........

DocUSN
01-09-2009, 05:35 PM
Wow ? how about all you keep proving is that your a VC hater that cant accept the fact that he has been one of the best players of the genration. Your one of thosem many many many people.. that still look at VC from his time in toronto. All u see iss Oo "he wanted out of toronto" he "quit" on them... So no matter what he does... No matter if he averages liek 25.. 5.. and 5 thoughtout the rest of his years.. hE just not relevant right?
How is he not relevant since he left? Hes made the palyoffs three times.. NOt to mentino that one time with the nets when he first came over.. he took the nets from being in last place.. to first on the last day of the season.. He averaged about 35ppg for like a 10 day stretch... And brought probably the worst roster in NBA history into the playoffs... You say hes not relevant? when he was one of the only three players in the nBA last year to average 20 points, 5reb, 5 ast... along with Kobe, and lebron ( only the two best players in the game).. oooo but hes not relevant right? Look at what hes doing this year.. Captain of a team that was predicted to be in last place! one of the rawest youngest, most unexperienced teams in the Nba... he has that 18-18 fighting within playoff contention.. NOt to metion hes putting probably the 3rd best numbers out of all the SG's in the game. .. And deserves to be an all star... O year i think he had a 2,000 point season after he got traded as well.... BUt no no wait.. he hasn't been relevant since the trade? WOww.........


:pity:

carter15
01-09-2009, 05:35 PM
Its more of a wing game now because of rule changes in the 90's that favored wing players. possibly because of the talent, but look at bigs now 90% are not dump it in the paint bigs, they are atheltic with range. The rule changes hurt the pure post player.

im not gonna dispute that cuz i simply wudnt no...but then i just feel if u "play that game" then how cud ppl compare kobe or lebron to MJ...over nash or paul to magic....u get what im saying?...nothing is the record books or HOF voting is gonna change i dont think....so i think ur playing with fire..so to speak..if u say this guys accomplishments rnt as good cuz he did them from 2000-2008.

carter15
01-09-2009, 05:38 PM
Wow ? how about all you keep proving is that your a VC hater that cant accept the fact that he has been one of the best players of the genration. Your one of thosem many many many people.. that still look at VC from his time in toronto. All u see iss Oo "he wanted out of toronto" he "quit" on them... So no matter what he does... No matter if he averages liek 25.. 5.. and 5 thoughtout the rest of his years.. hE just not relevant right?
How is he not relevant since he left? Hes made the palyoffs three times.. NOt to mentino that one time with the nets when he first came over.. he took the nets from being in last place.. to first on the last day of the season.. He averaged about 35ppg for like a 10 day stretch... And brought probably the worst roster in NBA history into the playoffs... You say hes not relevant? when he was one of the only three players in the nBA last year to average 20 points, 5reb, 5 ast... along with Kobe, and lebron ( only the two best players in the game).. oooo but hes not relevant right? Look at what hes doing this year.. Captain of a team that was predicted to be in last place! one of the rawest youngest, most unexperienced teams in the Nba... he has that 18-18 fighting within playoff contention.. NOt to metion hes putting probably the 3rd best numbers out of all the SG's in the game. .. And deserves to be an all star... O year i think he had a 2,000 point season after he got traded as well.... BUt no no wait.. he hasn't been relevant since the trade? WOww.........

well i mean it depends on what u consider to be one of the best (top 5, or 10, etc)...i think vince has been a top 20 player from 1998-2008....for me i consider that to fall into the "one of the best" category

DocUSN
01-09-2009, 05:41 PM
im not gonna dispute that cuz i simply wudnt no...but then i just feel if u "play that game" then how cud ppl compare kobe or lebron to MJ...over nash or paul to magic....u get what im saying?...nothing is the record books or HOF voting is gonna change i dont think....so i think ur playing with fire..so to speak..if u say this guys accomplishments rnt as good cuz he did them from 2000-2008.

It's a proven fact, the game has changed. Mikan is awsome, he was an icon he was the best center of his generation, but throw him in the game today and I doubt he makes a 12 man roster.

Same thing with Carter, Wing defense was weaken in the 90's to make the game faster and more fan friedly (dunks and drives to the basket with acrobatic finishs equal higer ratings then the sky hook) and Carter (along with every other wing) benifited. Dosnt take away from what he has done, but he hasnt done anything hall of fame worthy as of yet.

La11
01-09-2009, 05:45 PM
As a raptors fan he WILL BE A HALL OF FAMER.......IN CANADA BASKETBALL lol

jphxsuns
01-09-2009, 05:56 PM
vince carter is definetly a hall of famer. he averages almost 24 points for his career and hes an amzing scorer

plus he can jump outa the gym


one of the greatest and most underrated players in the game

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
01-09-2009, 06:01 PM
well i mean it depends on what u consider to be one of the best (top 5, or 10, etc)...i think vince has been a top 20 player from 1998-2008....for me i consider that to fall into the "one of the best" category


Same here.. I didn't mean he was like top 5 or 10... I think top 20 for sure fits "one of the best"... And how cany anyone deny that he hasnt been "one of the best".. It's not like i said he's "the best"... that would be crazy.. but he is definitly up there with some of the best.

blacknell
01-09-2009, 06:03 PM
NO what has he done

ItsTheLastAce
01-09-2009, 06:07 PM
Do you think Vince Carter, if his career ended today, would be inducted

what happened to this guidline???????

Chronz
01-09-2009, 06:28 PM
Props to those who are atleast giving an effort at crackin Vince's career, its shameful to see so many he was only a dunker posts. The fact that he was absolutely breathtaking in the air has actually underrated him as a player if so many see him as just a dunker.

futureheisman
01-09-2009, 06:33 PM
if youre asking this question he probably isnt

carter15
01-09-2009, 06:34 PM
what happened to this guidline???????

its a bad guideline..thats what happened

canzano55
01-10-2009, 04:55 AM
Nets fans need to take of the Jersey goggles off. Your embarrassing yourselves.

Vince Carter is one of the most overrated players of this decade. He peaked too early as a player and its squarely his fault for not putting time in the gym to bulk up and protect his body instead of taking the abuse head on. As a result he became an injury prone player that took 50 shots a game only making a little over 40 percent of them. Currently Vince is 15 point player while being a total liability on defense i.e. not a good case for a Hall of Famer.

Regarding the Raptors they were idiots to make Vince the franchise player and rely on him to deliver and that mistake cost us what we thought at the time was unrepairable damage to the franchise putting on the brink of collapse.

Thankfully Toronto fans will eventually get the last laugh while Vince Carter languishes in complete obscurity as he finish his career in purgatory. A guy who will never have won anything meaningful except for the highlight dunks and Nike commercials.

Chronz
01-10-2009, 05:04 AM
Nets fans need to take of the Jersey goggles off. Your embarrassing yourselves.

Vince Carter is one of the most overrated players of this decade. He peaked too early as a player and its squarely his fault for not putting time in the gym to bulk up and protect his body instead of taking the abuse head on. As a result he became an injury prone player that took 50 shots a game only making a little over 40 percent of them. Currently Vince is 15 point player while being a total liability on defense i.e. not a good case for a Hall of Famer.

Regarding the Raptors they were idiots to make Vince the franchise player and rely on him to deliver and that mistake cost us what we thought at the time was unrepairable damage to the franchise putting on the brink of collapse.

Thankfully Toronto fans will eventually get the last laugh while Vince Carter languishes in complete obscurity as he finish his career in purgatory. A guy who will never have won anything meaningful except for the highlight dunks and Nike commercials.

What are you talking about?

And Vince isnt the one to blame for the Raptors struggles.

jkiddvc20
01-10-2009, 12:38 PM
Nets fans need to take of the Jersey goggles off. Your embarrassing yourselves.

Vince Carter is one of the most overrated players of this decade. He peaked too early as a player and its squarely his fault for not putting time in the gym to bulk up and protect his body instead of taking the abuse head on. As a result he became an injury prone player that took 50 shots a game only making a little over 40 percent of them. Currently Vince is 15 point player while being a total liability on defense i.e. not a good case for a Hall of Famer.

Regarding the Raptors they were idiots to make Vince the franchise player and rely on him to deliver and that mistake cost us what we thought at the time was unrepairable damage to the franchise putting on the brink of collapse.

Thankfully Toronto fans will eventually get the last laugh while Vince Carter languishes in complete obscurity as he finish his career in purgatory. A guy who will never have won anything meaningful except for the highlight dunks and Nike commercials.

Of course a Raptors fans says this you sound like a total tool right now. 15 point player Idk wtf your talking about hes averagin 24/5/5 this season and his defense has been fine. Stop being angry because the Raptors sucked and you lost your franchise cry me a river and get over it! :mad:

carter15
01-10-2009, 01:44 PM
Nets fans need to take of the Jersey goggles off. Your embarrassing yourselves.

Vince Carter is one of the most overrated players of this decade. He peaked too early as a player and its squarely his fault for not putting time in the gym to bulk up and protect his body instead of taking the abuse head on. As a result he became an injury prone player that took 50 shots a game only making a little over 40 percent of them. Currently Vince is 15 point player while being a total liability on defense i.e. not a good case for a Hall of Famer.

Regarding the Raptors they were idiots to make Vince the franchise player and rely on him to deliver and that mistake cost us what we thought at the time was unrepairable damage to the franchise putting on the brink of collapse.

Thankfully Toronto fans will eventually get the last laugh while Vince Carter languishes in complete obscurity as he finish his career in purgatory. A guy who will never have won anything meaningful except for the highlight dunks and Nike commercials.

probly the dumbest thing anybody as said all thread since his avg is 23 POINTS PER GAME...good for 11th IN THE NBA...also he avg. 5.1 reb. and 4.9 ast.. and is coming off a 12 assist and a 14 assist game while nearing triple doubles in both.

and a little side note...when i was watching the bucks game yesterday the commentators (bucks commentators who r great btw) said VC is the 3rd fastest player, game-wise, to get to 15000 points....im guessing they meant active player but even that is very surprising to me...only behind A.I. and Shaq.

canzano55
01-10-2009, 01:56 PM
Of course a Raptors fans says this you sound like a total tool right now. 15 point player Idk wtf your talking about hes averagin 24/5/5 this season and his defense has been fine. Stop being angry because the Raptors sucked and you lost your franchise cry me a river and get over it! :mad:To me he's a 15 point player. He's slower than molasses in the lane and he's scared from contact. Oh and after all these years he still takes fade away three's haha. And as a one on one defender he's below average against decent guards. He's never been a good defender and he never will be.

If Vince is so good why couldn't the Nets do anything meaningful in the playoffs while they had two All Star players in the prime of their careers paired with him i.e. Kidd and Jefferson?

I think you guys are being blinded by the fact that because Harris has improved so dramatically that Carter's numbers are a bit inflated?

Anyways whatever, enjoy the "Mr. Amazing" show while it lasts but don't expect any convincing performances against good teams in this league.