PDA

View Full Version : Is T-mac even a star still?



JordansBulls
01-03-2009, 12:08 AM
Is T-mac even a star still?

After tonight the guy is averaging 15.03 ppg / 4.92 apg / 4.62 rpg / 38.9% FG on the season.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2009, 12:10 AM
no. He is like that 50 year old exec at your company that you know should retire, because he doesn't contribute anything, and just looks at e-mails all day from his friends. Hanging on, cause that is what he is supposed to do. At this point, he is a decent starter.

SUNDUNDIDIT
01-03-2009, 12:19 AM
Yall lost to the Raptors, no big deal...We almost lost to the Thunder....T-Mac still crushed the Nuggets by himself last game we played...Without him, yall woulda not of been up on us like yall was.

GSW fan
01-03-2009, 12:25 AM
yep

JIDsanity
01-03-2009, 12:28 AM
no. He is like that 50 year old exec at your company that you know should retire, because he doesn't contribute anything, and just looks at e-mails all day from his friends. Hanging on, cause that is what he is supposed to do. At this point, he is a decent starter.

Agreed :clap:

goku
01-03-2009, 12:36 AM
he's a quitter

JordansBulls
01-03-2009, 12:42 AM
Source: Chronicle (http://blogs.chron.com/franblinebury/2009/01/sittin_on_the_dock_of_the_bay.html)




I used to defend T-mac a lot, but I think he may be done. Rockets should just trade him while they can. T-mac for Vince would work for both teams.



It was Jan. 2, 2009, 1:16 left in the third quarter, when there was a seismic shift in the Rockets' world, when the tectonic plates opened up and swallowed an era.

The official play-by-play sheet simply says: Jamario Moon slam dunk.

Anybody who was watching at the Air Canada Centre or on TV knows it was the precise moment that Tracy McGrady quit on the Rockets.

Yao Ming knows it. You could read it all over his scowling face as he sat on the bench through the final embarrassing minutes of horrid game.

Rick Adelman knows it. You could read it between the lines of his post-game comments when he said he would not talk about any individual performances.

Ron Artest knows it. You could tell that a week ago when Artest dragged his sore and ballooning right ankle onto the court to gut out an overtime win against the Jazz when McGrady made himself a late scratch during the post parade.

Leslie Alexander knows it and Daryl Morey knows it and every one of McGrady's teammates knows it.

One could hope that Dikembe Mutombo was back in Houston watching and will arrive in Atlanta with his leadership in the form of a big stick.

Truth be told, it wouldn't make a difference, wouldn't matter. It would only elicit a few more whimpering excuses from McGrady and more disappointment down the line.


"McGrady could have made some kind of effort," said veteran play-by-play man Bill Worrell.

"You don't just give somebody an open dunk," said color commentator Matt Bullard.

For crying out loud, these guys are paid employees of the team and they had the guts and integrity to say out loud what everybody sitting at home and falling off their sofas knows.

It was the body language from the opening minutes of the game to the bitter, pathetic end that screamed out loud that McGrady would rather have been any other place on the planet than on that court with that team.

It is a waste of time and effort to go back over all of his empty promises and contradictions from the start of training camp or over his four-plus seasons in Houston.

Just say this: He is an extraordinary talent - T-Mac - who is capable of taking your breath away. Yet as a competitor - Tiny Tim-mac - he can be blown away in a gentle breeze.

This is not the first time that McGrady has revealed himself, having bailed out on the Raptors as an up-and-coming phenom and quit - flat-out admitting publicly that he didn't try - on the Magic to get himself traded out of Orlando.

_Sn1P3r_
01-03-2009, 01:08 AM
Right now, he isn't. Can't believe he is 2nd in guards for voting. CP3 deserves to start more than TMac IMO.

SteveNash
01-03-2009, 01:18 AM
He never was one.

Sport
01-03-2009, 01:21 AM
Hes still decent. But guys like Wade, Lebron, Paul, Rose, and others have kinda over shadowed guy like T-Mac.

JordansBulls
01-03-2009, 01:22 AM
He never was one.

Are you kidding me?

cambovenzi
01-03-2009, 01:27 AM
sure hes still a star.
but he doesnt really play like one anymore.

CB4MVP
01-03-2009, 01:48 AM
He never was one.

Never was a star hey? All he's ever done is be the league leader in scoring. big deal rigjt

Chronz
01-03-2009, 01:49 AM
His FG% looks bad but hes actually more efficient than he was last year, hes shooting the 3ball at a higher percentage and making his free throws for once, his rebound rate is up slightly and still a good passer. His Midrange game has completely abandoned him, and has yet to develop the strength in his knee or hes not confident in it yet, he cant play heavy minutes so his per game averages suffer, that and he seems to be getting worse with every game. The way I see it, he has so much more upside left in his game that the Rockets are in a good position once he and Artest get back on track. If that doesnt happen by February Id look to move either one, whichever fetches more in the open market.

So no he hasnt played as a star and hasnt consistently played like one in the regular season since the start of last year when he was completely injury free. It looks like hes done but Ive thought that before only to see him return, its just never been this inconsistent.

SeoulBeatz
01-03-2009, 01:52 AM
He never was one.

when were u born, do u not remember how dominant he was merely 5 years ago in Orlando?

superkegger
01-03-2009, 02:04 AM
Right now, no. He's got to figure some **** out. Return to consistency and being a threat all game/all season long.

pacman16
01-03-2009, 02:05 AM
he just wants out of houston prob, wait till he leaves then old tmac be back

still1ballin
01-03-2009, 02:08 AM
Too injured prone.

pippsux
01-03-2009, 02:39 AM
To answer the question, no he is not a star anymore, nor does he care. We the fans have to put up with his bs. If he doesn't want to be in Houston then just come out and say so and stop wasting our time. After the game against the Wiz, where he and the whole team played the worst basketball I have ever seen a professional team play, I realized the cancer may have spread.

prash
01-03-2009, 02:40 AM
He definitely doesn't deserve to be on the all star team. thats for sure.

JordansBulls
01-03-2009, 02:51 AM
he just wants out of houston prob, wait till he leaves then old tmac be back

Why does he want out of Houston?

THE_FLASH_21
01-03-2009, 03:24 AM
He never was...

#1Mavericksfan
01-03-2009, 03:35 AM
He never was...

:clap:

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-03-2009, 03:54 AM
Source: Chronicle (http://blogs.chron.com/franblinebury/2009/01/sittin_on_the_dock_of_the_bay.html)

What are you talking about??? His career PER is through the roof!!!!!!:rolleyes:

This is a big FU to John Hollinger. His stupid stats cant measure heart, or intangibles. T MAC would be at the bottom of HRT stat.

ink
01-03-2009, 04:36 AM
when were u born, do u not remember how dominant he was merely 5 years ago in Orlando?

You mean before he quit on them?

About the thread topic: I've never been a fan of TMac. I'm not surprised that he has had flashes of greatness in his career but he doesn't have the character, drive or discipline to be a consistent star. He has talent, just like a lot of other NBA players. And just like a lot of NBA players, that talent will produce some amazing seasons. But a player has to put together an entire career at that level to be regarded as a genuine star.

JordansBulls
01-03-2009, 10:25 AM
What are you talking about??? His career PER is through the roof!!!!!!:rolleyes:

This is a big FU to John Hollinger. His stupid stats cant measure heart, or intangibles. T MAC would be at the bottom of HRT stat.

In the past his PER was, but now it is not. It is less than 17 this year.

Yogi
01-03-2009, 10:31 AM
He's getting worse.

LAKERS 24/7
01-03-2009, 11:09 AM
Source: Chronicle (http://blogs.chron.com/franblinebury/2009/01/sittin_on_the_dock_of_the_bay.html)

His stats that game were 4 2 and 2. His +/- was an abysmal -25, worst on the team. Christ.

jehovah joe
01-03-2009, 11:29 AM
t-mac? t-mac who? :confused:

$ NyC $
01-03-2009, 12:06 PM
Wow. a player who scored 13 points in 30 seconds was it? Was an amazing player. Honestly he was one of my Favz but if T-Mac has any dignity he should refuse to go 2 the all-star game and let som1 who deserves it play in his spot, cuz averaging those #z definitely does not get you into the All-Star game. It's become a popularity contest.

barreleffact
01-03-2009, 03:50 PM
once a star, always a star. he will always have his fame and that huge contract. his production has dropped, he isnt a leader, and he has no heart, but he has fame which is what it takes to be a star IMO.

MiamiHeat
01-03-2009, 03:51 PM
I never knew he was 29 years old
I thought he was much older

JordansBulls
01-03-2009, 04:14 PM
I never knew he was 29 years old
I thought he was much older

How old did you think he was?

rhymeratic
01-03-2009, 04:19 PM
T-Mac is appearing to have a rapid decline similar to Glenn Robinson and even Steve Francis. IF you really watch his game, he is really dependent upon his athletic ability to make things happen, unfortunately knee injuries and back injuries have robbed him of his mobility and as we all know speed kills. So you're gonna have to ride this out Penny Hardaway style as he hopefully readjusts to his current level of ability. That's the whole reason they got Artest in the first place because they knew he was on the decline and can't do it alone. If anything, I'd try to trade him to the Lakers for Odom. How many years does t-mac have on his contract at this point? Maybe a deal to the Wizards etc.

He needs to be dealt imo.

MiamiHeat
01-03-2009, 04:21 PM
How old did you think he was?

around 33-34.....

kingjanjic
01-03-2009, 04:24 PM
i just think tmac has had enough, his always gettin hurt and when his healthy Yao is gettin hurt and the rockets arent gettin anywhere, i really believe rockets should rebuild, Yao isnt the powerhouse player everyone thought he would be, tmac has given up cuz he clearly knows rockets r not gettin anywhere

tmac needs a new start on a eastern confernece team, id say tmac should come to alanta, maybe bibby for tmac trade,

rockets chance at gettin far in the playoffs was last year and Yao got hurt, tmac couldnt carry the whole team on his back, dont get me wrong he tried his best n i respect that, but the hate needs to stop, im sure if u were in the same spot ud be frusterated like him 2, his had enough, he cant win, etheir he is hurt or his healthy and yao is hurt, rockets need to rebuild straight up

DerekRE_3
01-03-2009, 04:57 PM
John Salmons
20 PPG 3.5 RPG 3.2 APG 48% FG 40% 3 Point FG 81% FT

Tracy McGrady
15 PPG 4.6 RPG 4.9 APG 39% FG 39% 3 Point FG 81% FT

If I would have said these two players would be comparable statistically 2 years ago I would have been laughed at.

what54!?
01-03-2009, 05:13 PM
I think he still is. All of the injuries he's had has just took a toll on. Even though he's 29 he plays like he's 35.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 05:14 PM
John Salmons
20 PPG 3.5 RPG 3.2 APG 48% FG 40% 3 Point FG 81% FT

Tracy McGrady
15 PPG 4.6 RPG 4.9 APG 39% FG 39% 3 Point FG 81% FT

If I would have said these two players would be comparable statistically 2 years ago I would have been laughed at.

One is having a career year on a losing team, the other is hurt and readjusting to his new role. Give him by February, if hes not up to speed then Id be ready to admit Salmons>Tmac

DerekRE_3
01-03-2009, 05:15 PM
One is having a career year on a losing team, the other is hurt and readjusting to his new role. Give him by February, if hes not up to speed then Id be ready to admit Salmons>Tmac

Never said he was better, just that they were comparable statistically.

Also, this year isn't the first year Salmons has done this. Last year, in 41 games as a starter, he averaged 17 ppg while shooting close to 50% and had career highs in pretty much every category. All Salmons is doing this year is continuing what he did last year as a starter.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 05:16 PM
What are you talking about??? His career PER is through the roof!!!!!!:rolleyes:

This is a big FU to John Hollinger. His stupid stats cant measure heart, or intangibles. T MAC would be at the bottom of HRT stat.

Youd like that to be true but what Tmac currently plays at has no bearing on who he USED to be, Im feeling the same vibe from you that I got from Shaq haters. Tmac PER shouldve been high, I dont know what else your trying to portray other than the fact that you have deep seeded hate for Hollinger and have no idea of his work or methods.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 05:18 PM
Never said he was better, just that they were comparable statistically.

Also, this year isn't the first year Salmons has done this. Last year, in 41 games as a starter, he averaged 17 ppg while shooting close to 50% and had career highs in pretty much every category. All Salmons is doing this year is continuing what he did last year as a starter.

Yea when Artest was out I know, but Im saying is that if this holds up then it will be true regardless.

SteveNash
01-03-2009, 05:21 PM
when were u born, do u not remember how dominant he was merely 5 years ago in Orlando?

I remember his team getting off to a terrible start 5 years ago, something like 1-18 where he ended up throwing his coach under a bus and quitting on his team. So when were you born?

GrkGawdofWalkz
01-03-2009, 05:23 PM
He's a gifted athlete, but come on. He's sitting out games, to wait for the playoffs. For those Tmac apologists, seriously buy the guy a pair of golden crutches, because that's what he's doing to your cap. Crippling it.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 05:25 PM
You mean before he quit on them?

About the thread topic: I've never been a fan of TMac. I'm not surprised that he has had flashes of greatness in his career but he doesn't have the character, drive or discipline to be a consistent star. He has talent, just like a lot of other NBA players. And just like a lot of NBA players, that talent will produce some amazing seasons. But a player has to put together an entire career at that level to be regarded as a genuine star.
Ugh he gave them more than they deserved, the reason Tmac was no longer with the Magic was due to the sheer ignorance of their management. He gave them the best years of his career and they were indeed great ones.

It wasnt talent that produced HISTORICAL seasons, it was HEALTH.

Ive never understood the point of saying he has the talent, if you havent been paying attention hes one of the most injury prone players in the league, having a balky back isnt a talent. When 100% healthy hes as good as anybody and in fact has put up some of the most spectacular seasons from any player so the fact that hes not should tell you its not his drive thats hurting him. If Tmac werent this skilled he wouldnt have stayed in the league as long as he did. If this is truly the end then it will be sad career riddled with injuries but thats hardly his fault. It wasnt lack of commitment or dedication that derailed Tmac's career, it was injuries, in fact the year he had the best off season of his life his body betrayed him.

He was most definitely a star, the sign of a star is to make your teams better, play at a high level, and once you reach the playoffs take it up another notch. Tmac has done all these throughout his career, he just never had Grant Hill to compliment him in his prime and has struggled through injuries in the days when he has had decent help.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 05:26 PM
I remember his team getting off to a terrible start 5 years ago, something like 1-18 where he ended up throwing his coach under a bus and quitting on his team. So when were you born?
It wouldve been stupid of Tmac to go all out on a team going nowhere, smart career move for a guy with bad health. And when did he ever talk trash about Doc?

Nadhi1
01-03-2009, 05:41 PM
The way t-mac was playin aganist the raps, no his not. Age and injuries are finally catching up to him.

SteveNash
01-03-2009, 05:52 PM
It wouldve been stupid of Tmac to go all out on a team going nowhere, smart career move for a guy with bad health. And when did he ever talk trash about Doc?

After they started sucking to being the season McGrady started his whining again then Doc got fired, then someone close to Doc came out in the media and said McGrady was the cause.

And yeah I guess it was a good career move if all you want to do is get paid. The point is, that's not something a star would do. It's not like McGrady's the only player to get injured.

Seattlesports
01-03-2009, 06:09 PM
its hard to say that he is not a star but he is not even close to the career avgs. who knows he could avg 25 poits for the rest of the season and this post will be a mute point. he also has a lot better team mates on this team then he has ever had before.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 06:27 PM
After they started sucking to being the season McGrady started his whining again then Doc got fired, then someone close to Doc came out in the media and said McGrady was the cause.

And yeah I guess it was a good career move if all you want to do is get paid. The point is, that's not something a star would do. It's not like McGrady's the only player to get injured.
Losing tends to do that, to blame it all on Tmac is laughable, teams that are out of the playoffs from the start of the year arent exactly cohesive, not when they expected to make the playoffs. Doc got canned because coaches lifespans are short and unless the owner is cheap cough sterling, your not gonna get canned before any of the players do.

Tmac did more than get paid, he did it in hopes of prolonging his career for a team that could go somewhere. Besides I think you overrate the importance of his not going full out, even with him just playing to his talent he missed 15 games and by all means a great player surrounded by softies who couldnt defend. Most stars that are as injury prone dont go all out on teams going nowhere.

alexander_37
01-03-2009, 06:56 PM
yah kobe never whined about his team .... not ever :rolleyes:

LAKERS 24/7
01-03-2009, 07:02 PM
yah kobe never whined about his team .... not ever :rolleyes:

you don't know what this could start

amare#1
01-03-2009, 07:10 PM
Not really anymore. He is far too inconsistent because of injuries to develop a rhythm.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-03-2009, 07:48 PM
Youd like that to be true but what Tmac currently plays at has no bearing on who he USED to be, Im feeling the same vibe from you that I got from Shaq haters. Tmac PER shouldve been high, I dont know what else your trying to portray other than the fact that you have deep seeded hate for Hollinger and have no idea of his work or methods.

T MAC today with a high PER would still be the same player to me. What has he done in Toronto and Orlando and now seemingly in Houston tells me a lot more about a player than John's PER stats.

There is no defending not getting out of the first round for his first 11 seasons. It is inexcusable. There are some great hall of famers who have never won a championship, and that can be understood. But not even getting to the second round is a complete joke.

If you just looked at his PER, you would say the guy is a superstar. Thus you might believe that at least one of his teams were able to get by an opponent. That is my beef with John Hollinger. He is the ultimate stat geek. And his formulas should be taken with a grain of salt because they do not measure, toughness, heart, leadership, basketball IQ, and many more intangibles a player needs to be considered a "great" player.

Hollinger gives a lot of credence to the importance of a rebound. But to be honest, a rebound is the most over rated stat in basketball. So what if a player misses a shot and the ball bounces your way. Does that mean you are a great player? I say hell no. There are few players that earned rebounds. Rodman, Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard come to mind off the top of my head. They went and got the ball. But if I see any sf, sg or pg that gets a lot of rebounds, all it tells me is that the ball bounced off the rim right to them.

And by the way, the way T Mac currently plays is exactly the player he used to be. He is still soft and does not take accountability. He was like that back then and he is like that now. Just without the ball bouncing his way as much to pump up that precious PER.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-03-2009, 07:54 PM
Losing tends to do that, to blame it all on Tmac is laughable, teams that are out of the playoffs from the start of the year arent exactly cohesive, not when they expected to make the playoffs. Doc got canned because coaches lifespans are short and unless the owner is cheap cough sterling, your not gonna get canned before any of the players do.

Tmac did more than get paid, he did it in hopes of prolonging his career for a team that could go somewhere. Besides I think you overrate the importance of his not going full out, even with him just playing to his talent he missed 15 games and by all means a great player surrounded by softies who couldnt defend. Most stars that are as injury prone dont go all out on teams going nowhere.

Really, I see D Wade going at it pretty hard this year. You think the Heat have a chance at anything? I seen Kobe average 35 points for a team that everyone knew was not going anywhere. Everyone talked about Lebrons inferior teammates at the begging of his career, seems to me he went at it pretty hard.

Why are you saying its ok to not give your all? I know you as a true basketball fan can not honestly believe that.

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-03-2009, 08:00 PM
yah kobe never whined about his team .... not ever :rolleyes:

Yeah, he did. But it produced results. The Lakers did something about it because they know Kobe can deliver with talent.

Maybe T Mac's whining is falling on deaf ears because they know even with more talent around him, he will not be able to pull them through.

aWiLL 20
01-03-2009, 08:07 PM
he's got no balls.

IndyRealist
01-03-2009, 08:14 PM
If Houston doesn't want him, Indiana will take him (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=532~44~598~1024&teams=11~10~10~10&te=&cash=) 15/5/5 to split time with Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, and Marquis Daniels? I'd do it.

MrBloop
01-03-2009, 08:32 PM
He was a throw in, in a deal I made for Dwayne Wade in my ESPN fantasy league.

The Answer3
01-03-2009, 09:18 PM
He's an inconsistent, injury-prone starter. He'll have a big game and then he's a no-show for the next game. Thats how it goes. He's an above average starter.

ARMIN12NBA
01-03-2009, 09:30 PM
T MAC today with a high PER would still be the same player to me. What has he done in Toronto and Orlando and now seemingly in Houston tells me a lot more about a player than John's PER stats.

There is no defending not getting out of the first round for his first 11 seasons. It is inexcusable. There are some great hall of famers who have never won a championship, and that can be understood. But not even getting to the second round is a complete joke.

If you just looked at his PER, you would say the guy is a superstar. Thus you might believe that at least one of his teams were able to get by an opponent. That is my beef with John Hollinger. He is the ultimate stat geek. And his formulas should be taken with a grain of salt because they do not measure, toughness, heart, leadership, basketball IQ, and many more intangibles a player needs to be considered a "great" player.

Hollinger gives a lot of credence to the importance of a rebound. But to be honest, a rebound is the most over rated stat in basketball. So what if a player misses a shot and the ball bounces your way. Does that mean you are a great player? I say hell no. There are few players that earned rebounds. Rodman, Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard come to mind off the top of my head. They went and got the ball. But if I see any sf, sg or pg that gets a lot of rebounds, all it tells me is that the ball bounced off the rim right to them.

And by the way, the way T Mac currently plays is exactly the player he used to be. He is still soft and does not take accountability. He was like that back then and he is like that now. Just without the ball bouncing his way as much to pump up that precious PER.

Agreed. There is so much more to basketball than stats. A great example of that is a player like Trevor Ariza. His stats are not flashy. His stats would make you think he is some ordinary, average player, but his impact on each and every game is felt in a big way. He makes the little plays that are game-changing. He plays great defense and so on. I don't understand people's infatuation with saying that these stats that ESPN gives us are the end all, be all. They deserve mention, but they certainly do not tell the entire story.

NYMetros
01-03-2009, 09:36 PM
Not anymore, no. He's always injured.

airjesus50
01-03-2009, 09:42 PM
He never was one.


WoW your just a hater IMO how can you say that??? Is this your first year watching basketball or something???

Chronz
01-03-2009, 09:45 PM
T MAC today with a high PER would still be the same player to me. What has he done in Toronto and Orlando and now seemingly in Houston tells me a lot more about a player than John's PER stats.
If Tmac had a PER comparable to his prime years we wouldnt even be having this discussion.


There is no defending not getting out of the first round for his first 11 seasons. It is inexcusable. There are some great hall of famers who have never won a championship, and that can be understood. But not even getting to the second round is a complete joke.

If Kobe in his prime couldnt do it when he was alone (with 2 cracks at it) what makes you think its all on 1 person? In terms of team success all you have to know is that Tmac always made his overachieve.



If you just looked at his PER, you would say the guy is a superstar. Thus you might believe that at least one of his teams were able to get by an opponent. That is my beef with John Hollinger. He is the ultimate stat geek.
Thats why your beef for him is unjust, look at the definition of PER on his site, he warns everyone before hand that it is not the end all be all stat. Yet people like you try to put words in his mouth.


And his formulas should be taken with a grain of salt because they do not measure, toughness, heart, leadership, basketball IQ, and many more intangibles a player needs to be considered a "great" player.

Thats not what theyre meant to measure. Again your only exposing how little you know about PER.


Hollinger gives a lot of credence to the importance of a rebound. But to be honest, a rebound is the most over rated stat in basketball. So what if a player misses a shot and the ball bounces your way. Does that mean you are a great player? I say hell no.
He gives the proper credence to a rebound, its the value of a possession or essentially erasing a missed shot attempt on the PER scale. Your kind of logic is actually why defensive rebounds are given less weight than more meaningful offensive rebounds.


There are few players that earned rebounds. Rodman, Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard come to mind off the top of my head. They went and got the ball.
Ummm they all had high rebounding rates


But if I see any sf, sg or pg that gets a lot of rebounds, all it tells me is that the ball bounced off the rim right to them.

Depends on the player and the rebounders around him. Over an entire seasons worth of games the best rebounding perimeter players tend to post up the highest rebounding numbers.


And by the way, the way T Mac currently plays is exactly the player he used to be.
By the way, that was the dumbest thing youve ever said.


He is still soft and does not take accountability. He was like that back then and he is like that now. Just without the ball bouncing his way as much to pump up that precious PER.

Okay let me know when you want to start dealing with facts.





Really, I see D Wade going at it pretty hard this year.
Thats because his team is still in the playoff mix


You think the Heat have a chance at anything?
Yes, the playoffs...


I seen Kobe average 35 points for a team that everyone knew was not going anywhere.
It took Kobe 3 years to snap and want out, Tmac atleast carried his team 4 years before getting fedup. GREAT EXAMPLE keep em coming


Everyone talked about Lebrons inferior teammates at the begging of his career, seems to me he went at it pretty hard.

Yep he did, so did Tmac when there was something to play for.


Why are you saying its ok to not give your all? I know you as a true basketball fan can not honestly believe that.

No Im saying I wouldnt blame any player for choosing his career over a **** team that he repeatedly gave chances to improve only to watch them fail year after year. Let me guess you were one of those Lakers fans that bood Kobe in the early going of the season right.

tmac93
01-03-2009, 09:51 PM
hez heartless

FOBolous
01-03-2009, 10:01 PM
he needs to go see the great wizard of oz

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-03-2009, 10:10 PM
If Tmac had a PER comparable to his prime years we wouldnt even be having this discussion.


If Kobe in his prime couldnt do it when he was alone (with 2 cracks at it) what makes you think its all on 1 person? In terms of team success all you have to know is that Tmac always made his overachieve.



Thats why your beef for him is unjust, look at the definition of PER on his site, he warns everyone before hand that it is not the end all be all stat. Yet people like you try to put words in his mouth.


Thats not what theyre meant to measure. Again your only exposing how little you know about PER.


He gives the proper credence to a rebound, its the value of a possession or essentially erasing a missed shot attempt on the PER scale. Your kind of logic is actually why defensive rebounds are given less weight than more meaningful offensive rebounds.


Ummm they all had high rebounding rates


Depends on the player and the rebounders around him. Over an entire seasons worth of games the best rebounding perimeter players tend to post up the highest rebounding numbers.


By the way, that was the dumbest thing youve ever said.


Okay let me know when you want to start dealing with facts.





Thats because his team is still in the playoff mix


Yes, the playoffs...


It took Kobe 3 years to snap and want out, Tmac atleast carried his team 4 years before getting fedup. GREAT EXAMPLE keep em coming


Yep he did, so did Tmac when there was something to play for.


No Im saying I wouldnt blame any player for choosing his career over a **** team that he repeatedly gave chances to improve only to watch them fail year after year. Let me guess you were one of those Lakers fans that bood Kobe in the early going of the season right.

So now we are going to compare 2 seasons to 11? And by the way, Kobe's teammates those 2 years were far worse than T Mac's for the majority of those 11 failures.

I dont care how you try and justify it, I look at his 11 years as total stat padding. He is lumped in with the same type of players like Elton, Brand, and Al Jefferson, Carmello Anthony and many more. Guys who get stats, but for some reason, never have enough talent around them to win. But I might be lumping poor Al and Melo in there a little too early. They are still young and has a chance to get past the first round.

Dont you think its funny that there are countless players that play with inferior talent than what T Mac has played with and done much more with it? Jason Kidd does not have T Macs skills but brought 2 crappy teams to the finals. Allen Iverson put some scrubs on his back to the finals as well. It can be done. It just has not been done by T-Mac. And no matter if you or T-Mac wants to blame, his teammates, management or who ever. The fact is that he is getting payed all the money. He gets all the spot light. He was supposed to be the player that the front office builds around. But for some reason, 3 different franchises have not been able to build a winner around him.

If you know anything about construction. I would equate it to building a house. You can put up the most fantastic home around. But that home is going to crumble if it is not built on a solid foundation. And in IMHO, T Mac is anything but, solid.

ink
01-03-2009, 10:10 PM
I think you overrate the importance of his not going full out .... Most stars that are as injury prone dont go all out on teams going nowhere.

I can't agree with either of those statements. You can never overrate the importance of going full out.

IMO an injury prone player isn't really a star. I know it's not their fault, but in fact being plagued by injuries is what separates players that we remember for their greatness from players that we remember for their potential. And potential only really counts at the beginning of a career right?

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-03-2009, 10:21 PM
I can't agree with either of those statements. You can never overrate the importance of going full out.

IMO an injury prone player isn't really a star. I know it's not their fault, but in fact being plagued by injuries is what separates players that we remember for their greatness from players that we remember for their potential. And potential only really counts at the beginning of a career right?

Exactly, I wanted to quote the part you quoted him and say that is the whole problem with T Mac. Maybe his teams are not going anywhere because they know he is not going full out. Who on his team is going to go full out if they know their "leader" is not? That is what I was saying when I said T Mac is the same player he was before, a quitter who does not give his all. He may not have the same athleticism, but his mental weakness has been the same for most of his career.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 10:36 PM
I can't agree with either of those statements. You can never overrate the importance of going full out.
Yes you can, when the risks outweigh the benefit. There is no point in going full out for a team that is going nowhere. He didnt crap it out Vince style, he simply played at 90% capacity to stay healthy.


IMO an injury prone player isn't really a star. I know it's not their fault, but in fact being plagued by injuries is what separates players that we remember for their greatness from players that we remember for their potential. And potential only really counts at the beginning of a career right?

An injury prone player can be a star if hes healthy enough to compete in the playoffs. Tmac's injuries have only really cost his team that 1 year when he spasmed out for like half the year. But every year aside from that Tmac has elevated his game in the playoffs, at times his teams as well. But theyve always been taken down by superior teams.


Agreed. There is so much more to basketball than stats. A great example of that is a player like Trevor Ariza. His stats are not flashy. His stats would make you think he is some ordinary, average player, but his impact on each and every game is felt in a big way. He makes the little plays that are game-changing. He plays great defense and so on. I don't understand people's infatuation with saying that these stats that ESPN gives us are the end all, be all. They deserve mention, but they certainly do not tell the entire story.

You know your example would be more credible if you didnt list a player with great numbers. Battier for example or someone of that nature but Ariza has great stats, PER included. Seems to me like most of you stat haters dont know much about them



So now we are going to compare 2 seasons to 11?
What are you talking about? I guess the correct answer would be no


And by the way, Kobe's teammates those 2 years were far worse than T Mac's for the majority of those 11 failures.

You speak as if Tmac has been the same player throughout his career, players have a development stage, a prime, and a decline. Tmac's decline was sooner to due injuries. So it depends on which Tmac we're talking about and which team we're talking about.


I dont care how you try and justify it, I look at his 11 years as total stat padding.
Thats because you dont know much about his game or his teams.


He is lumped in with the same type of players like Elton, Brand, and Al Jefferson, Carmello Anthony and many more. Guys who get stats, but for some reason, never have enough talent around them to win.
None of those players ever played at the level Tmac reached, none carried the trash Tmac did to greater heights.


But I might be lumping poor Al and Melo in there a little too early. They are still young and has a chance to get past the first round.

Getting past the first round wont make them better than Tmac


Dont you think its funny that there are countless players that play with inferior talent than what T Mac has played with and done much more with it?
Examples?


Jason Kidd does not have T Macs skills but brought 2 crappy teams to the finals.
If that was crap then what do you call the garbage Tmac played with throughout his prime years?


Allen Iverson put some scrubs on his back to the finals as well.
Give PRIME Tmac AI's team and they go to the Finals as well, AI had the best team in the conference.


It can be done. It just has not been done by T-Mac. And no matter if you or T-Mac wants to blame, his teammates, management or who ever. The fact is that he is getting payed all the money. He gets all the spot light. What can be done? Carrying a team to great heights, I know that all to well. Considering the crap Tmac played with he did more than they ever couldve with anyone else.


He was supposed to be the player that the front office builds around. But for some reason, 3 different franchises have not been able to build a winner around him.

I like how you try to manipulate the situation as if hes the reason, 3 teams wow thats alot. Since your so lost on the subject Ill explain how they failed.

Toronto did nothing wrong, Tmac just wanted to go home and play on a team that was on the rise. That team was the Magic, they failed to build around him because Grant Hill saddled the teams CAP, their draft picks were laughable, and their free agent pick ups did little to shore up their weaknesses. In Houston, its just been him and Yao for the most part. He wasnt the same player in Houston that he was in Orlando so now your talking about a different player. Still great but not historically good.


If you know anything about construction. I would equated it to building a house. You can put up the most fantastic home around. But that home is going to crumble if it is not built on a solid foundation. And in IMHO, T Mac is anything but, solid.

Well what you describe a house that has a great foundation but even uglier house, that cant get prettier? Thats the mess Tmac was in Orlando.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 10:39 PM
Exactly, I wanted to quote the part you quoted him and say that is the whole problem with T Mac. Maybe his teams are not going anywhere because they know he is not going full out. Who on his team is going to go full out if they know their "leader" is not? That is what I was saying when I said T Mac is the same player he was before, a quitter who does not give his all. He may not have the same athleticism, but his mental weakness has been the same for most of his career.

This is what Im talkin about when I say you dont know the mans career. He only stopped trying to go all out when his team was clearly out of the picture. Tmac tries his hardest but once its over, hes done. That may be a character flaw in your eyes but people said the same thing about Kobe when he didnt take a single shot in what was to that point his biggest game as the leader of the Lakers. Forgetting to mention what a miracle it was for him to put the Lakers in such a position in the first place.

ink
01-03-2009, 10:47 PM
Yes you can, when the risks outweigh the benefit. There is no point in going full out for a team that is going nowhere. He didnt crap it out Vince style, he simply played at 90% capacity to stay healthy.

Man, he let Jamario Moon blow past him for a dunk yesterday. That's low. lol. If he's too "injured" to play he shouldn't dress. Give me Bonner, Nocioni, Oakley, Rodman, Battier, Garbajosa, anyone, rather than someone who doesn't commit himself when he's on the court. There is no excuse, and certainly not the "risks outweighing the benefit" argument. What's he saving himself for? A better pay day? A team that can carry him? The perfect situation? Great players don't wait for perfect situations. They play their ***** off all the time.


An injury prone player can be a star if hes healthy enough to compete in the playoffs. Tmac's injuries have only really cost his team that 1 year when he spasmed out for like half the year. But every year aside from that Tmac has elevated his game in the playoffs, at times his teams as well. But theyve always been taken down by superior teams.

Like I was getting at, TMac will be remembered for what might have been. He and Carter share the same character flaw -- and it's interesting that they're relatives. Injuries and lack of drive. That will be the reason they will not be remembered as NBA greats.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 10:53 PM
Man, he let Jamario Moon blow past him for a dunk yesterday. That's low. lol. If he's too "injured" to play he shouldn't dress. Give me Bonner, Nocioni, Oakley, Rodman, Battier, Garbajosa, anyone, rather than someone who doesn't commit himself when he's on the court. There is no excuse, and certainly not the "risks outweighing the benefit" argument What's he saving himself for? A better pay day? A team that can carry him? The perfect situation? Great players don't wait for perfect situations. They play their ***** off all the time.

That argument doesnt apply to this situation, that was when he was fit to play in Orlando on a bad team. I have no idea whats wrong with him right now other than he shouldnt be playing if hes not putting in the effort. Some nights he has it, some nights he doesnt, he always starts the year slow but this year looks worse, still doesnt change the fact that what he did in Orlando was the smart thing to do.



Like I was getting at, TMac will be remembered for what might have been. He and Carter share the same character flaw -- and it's interesting that they're relatives. Injuries and lack of drive. That will be the reason they will not be remembered as NBA greats.

Tmac didnt lack drive, he lacked a healthy back.The best offseason of his career his back betrayed him, I dont know how many times I gotta keep saying it but everytime you try to say he lacked the drive I will bring it up. Players with Tmac's skill set and basketball IQ dont get there without working on their games.
In his prime there were very few that compared, sadly those years were spend with his sidekick on the sidelines

ARMIN12NBA
01-03-2009, 10:59 PM
You know your example would be more credible if you didnt list a player with great numbers. Battier for example or someone of that nature but Ariza has great stats, PER included. Seems to me like most of you stat haters dont know much about them.

He averages about 10 and 5. Those aren't "great" stats by any means. Not to mention I was talking about what his impact truly is compared to what his stats say. His stats say he contributed 10 points, 5 rebounds, and a couple steals. But when you watch the game, it seems as if he did so much more and impacted the game in many more ways. That is all I am getting at. Hustle, heart, determination, great defense, etc. isn't shown in statistics.

ink
01-03-2009, 11:00 PM
That argument doesnt apply to this situation, that was when he was fit to play in Orlando on a bad team. I have no idea whats wrong with him right now other than he shouldnt be playing if hes not putting in the effort. Some nights he has it, some nights he doesnt, he always starts the year slow but this year looks worse, still doesnt change the fact that what he did in Orlando was the smart thing to do.

How is it smart? He can't have it both ways. If he's a star he plays hard no matter what his situation. If he's injured he doesn't dress. If he's an almost-great he tanks a season because he gives up on his team. What's the excuse now? We hand out star status to some of these players waaaayyy too easily.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 11:09 PM
How is it smart? He can't have it both ways. If he's a star he plays hard no matter what his situation. If he's injured he doesn't dress. If he's an almost-great he tanks a season because he gives up on his team. What's the excuse now? We hand out star status to some of these players waaaayyy too easily.
Your not understanding the context, he played hard when there was something to play for, once the season was a lost cause he stopped giving it his all. Not about being injured or not, he played pretty much all the games. Even though I dont agree with your stance, thats like blaming KG for going on the IR when the Twolves season was officially over. There is nothing to play for, any further risk is totally avoidable. For the best interest of the player and the franchise its best that he not try to go 100% if it means increased risk of injury. Thats what Tmac was doing, avoiding injury.

Lakersfan2483
01-03-2009, 11:15 PM
T-Mac is a great talent and had the ability to be one of the greatest guards ever to play, but injuries, his inability to be an effective leader, and his drive have had a negative affect on his career thus far. As far as him still being a star, I would say he is a star, but injuries have slowed him down in terms of him being able to take over a game the way he used to.

ink
01-03-2009, 11:15 PM
Your not understanding the context, he played hard when there was something to play for, once the season was a lost cause he stopped giving it his all. Not about being injured or not, he played pretty much all the games. Even though I dont agree with your stance, thats like blaming KG for going on the IR when the Twolves season was officially over. There is nothing to play for, any further risk is totally avoidable. For the best interest of the player and the franchise its best that he not try to go 100% if it means increased risk of injury. Thats what Tmac was doing, avoiding injury.

Then he should have gone on the IR as I suggested when I said he shouldn't dress if he's injured. I definitely understand the context. KG did the right thing. btw, you can't compare TMac and KG's heart.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 11:15 PM
He averages about 10 and 5. Those aren't "great" stats by any means.
How can you blame PER for anything and then go on to define great stats by different standards? Its a catch-22 and totally exposes your understanding of great stats. Your looking at per game averages, thats not what PER is about. He averages ALOT mroe than 10 and 5, and his PER reflects that because his PER is GREAT.



Not to mention I was talking about what his impact truly is compared to what his stats say. His stats say he contributed 10 points, 5 rebounds, and a couple steals. But when you watch the game, it seems as if he did so much more and impacted the game in many more ways. That is all I am getting at. Hustle, heart, determination, great defense, etc. isn't shown in statistics.

I watch all the Laker games, he contributes exactly what I envision and his stats reflect the energy which he plays with. His overall worth exceeds his stats because of his positional defense, but again thats not a stat. You seem to think the use of stats means you stop at that point, thats your problem with those type of people, not with the stats themselves.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 11:17 PM
Then he should have gone on the IR as I said. I definitely understand the context. KG did the right thing. btw, if TMac had 1/50th of KG's heart, he'd be a top tier star.
So let me get this straight you think its more honorable for a player to not even play and fake an injury than the star atleast show up and play to some amount of his abilities, yea that contradicts your thinking of giving it your all doesnt it?

Since when is giving NOTHING, better than giving 90%?


If Tmac had 1/50th of KG's health, he would still be a top tier star.

ink
01-03-2009, 11:25 PM
So let me get this straight you think its more honorable for a player to not even play and fake an injury than the star atleast show up and play to some amount of his abilities, yea that contradicts your thinking of giving it your all doesnt it?

Since when is giving NOTHING, better than giving 90%?


If Tmac had 1/50th of KG's health, he would still be a top tier star.

Garnett missed the last 5 games, and in so doing improved the team's lottery chances. It was over. He was probably told to rest up and heal his injuries. I really don't think you can compare KG and TMac unless you're trying for polar opposites.

ARMIN12NBA
01-03-2009, 11:27 PM
How can you blame PER for anything and then go on to define great stats by different standards? Its a catch-22 and totally exposes your understanding of great stats. Your looking at per game averages, thats not what PER is about. He averages ALOT mroe than 10 and 5, and his PER reflects that because his PER is GREAT.



I watch all the Laker games, he contributes exactly what I envision and his stats reflect the energy which he plays with. His overall worth exceeds his stats because of his positional defense, but again thats not a stat. You seem to think the use of stats means you stop at that point, thats your problem with those type of people, not with the stats themselves.

Basically. Some people don't look further into the player. I even said in my post that stats deserve mention and are definitely useful, but they can't be the end, all be all. Some people say that because one person averages more points and rebounds that they are the better player, but that is not the case all the time.

BTW--How do stats reflect his energy? Maybe for Ariza's, but not all players. Vujacic is a pesk on defense and there isn't a stat that would tell me he is an energetic defensive player (unless they kept stats on how many times a player got choked/punched by the opposition).

SteveNash
01-03-2009, 11:28 PM
Losing tends to do that, to blame it all on Tmac is laughable, teams that are out of the playoffs from the start of the year arent exactly cohesive, not when they expected to make the playoffs. Doc got canned because coaches lifespans are short and unless the owner is cheap cough sterling, your not gonna get canned before any of the players do.

Tmac did more than get paid, he did it in hopes of prolonging his career for a team that could go somewhere. Besides I think you overrate the importance of his not going full out, even with him just playing to his talent he missed 15 games and by all means a great player surrounded by softies who couldnt defend. Most stars that are as injury prone dont go all out on teams going nowhere.

I'm not blaming it all on McGrady, just pointing out all of McGrady's character flaws as the season he was never a star.

McGrady tried to find a quick way to win a ring, but he's as far from a ring now as he was in Orlando. It's funny seeing it now that McGrady probably would have had an easier time if he stayed with the Magic.

I'd also like to point out that it's not all his fault. He was born soft with a poor attitude and a losers mentality. The biggest problem McGrady had is living up to expectations due to media hype. He couldn't handle it and that's why he will never be a star.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 11:31 PM
Garnett missed the last 5 games, and in so doing improved the team's lottery chances.
I love how when KG does it, it improves the team, when Tmac does it, it him not being a star.


It was over.
As it was for Tmac


He was probably told to rest up and heal his injuries. I really don't think you can compare KG and TMac unless you're trying for polar opposites.

Nope they are exactly similar, team had no where to go, difference is Tmac played to 90% when healthy whereas KG was healthy enough to play but decided to sit out rather than risk injury. Sorry but they were exactly the same scenario's being played out. Your just trying to portray Tmac as more of a loser for some reason, possibly due to him leaving your franchise all those years ago.

kvrnm
01-03-2009, 11:31 PM
i dont think mcgrady is a star anymore, i really think hes lost it.

ink
01-03-2009, 11:40 PM
I love how when KG does it, it improves the team, when Tmac does it, it him not being a star.


As it was for Tmac


Nope they are exactly similar, team had no where to go, difference is Tmac played to 90% when healthy whereas KG was healthy enough to play but decided to sit out rather than risk injury. Sorry but they were exactly the same scenario's being played out. Your just trying to portray Tmac as more of a loser for some reason, possibly due to him leaving your franchise all those years ago.

Well we can eliminate the "leaving the Raptors franchise" idea. I didn't care and still don't. I was indifferent. :laugh2: Next?

If a player misses the last few games of a season it's not likely just his decision, so when KG missed a handful of games it is different. It became a business situation involving both the franchise and the player -- involving possible trade value and lottery chances. By contrast TMac quit on his team ON THE COURT. Very different.

edit in: you asked what my hidden agenda is for portraying TMac "as a loser". I'm not really calling him a "loser", I'm saying he isn't a star and won't be remembered as an all-time great. It's all about character, giving everything to your team, and making something out of the talent you have, and I'm consistent on that.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 11:49 PM
Well we can eliminate the "leaving the Raptors franchise" idea. I didn't care and still don't. I was indifferent. :laugh2: Next?
Fair enough, it was just a theory, Im left wondering how you could be so wrong when the truth is right in front of you.


If a player misses the last few games of a season it's not likely just his decision, so when KG missed a handful of games it is different.
KG missed the games Tmac wouldnt, thats basically all your admitting


It became a business situation involving both the franchise and the player -- involving possible trade value and lottery chances. By contrast TMac quit on his team ON THE COURT. Very different.

Tmac's decision dealt with trade value, lottery chances. Tmac playing to stay healthy is still better than not playing at all. Quitting on your team is still quitting on your team, theres nothing more admirable than KG missing games he couldve played, whereas Tmac atleast put forth some kind of effort. Again 90% capacity is better than 0%. Tmac played when there was a reason to, BOTH players did, how they avoided injuries is different. Tmac played, KG didnt.

Chronz
01-03-2009, 11:54 PM
Basically. Some people don't look further into the player. I even said in my post that stats deserve mention and are definitely useful, but they can't be the end, all be all. Some people say that because one person averages more points and rebounds that they are the better player, but that is not the case all the time.
I know what you said, you agreed with LAD stance on PER being a big F U to Hollinger, when Hollinger himself says the same **** you just did, about it not being the end all be all.



BTW--How do stats reflect his energy? Maybe for Ariza's, but not all players. Vujacic is a pesk on defense and there isn't a stat that would tell me he is an energetic defensive player (unless they kept stats on how many times a player got choked/punched by the opposition).

His all-around stat stuffing tells me he plays with energy, Ive never seen a non-active player post the rebounding, steals, block stats Ive seen Ariza post. Sasha may be a pesk but he gambles, his defense is up and down but he is what he is. But in regards to your question, most high energy players post high +/- differentials.

ink
01-03-2009, 11:56 PM
Fair enough, it was just a theory, Im left wondering how you could be so wrong when the truth is right in front of you.

Telling people they're wrong is a bad habit man. You're better than that. You don't need to resort to that.


Tmac's decision dealt with trade value, lottery chances. Tmac playing to stay healthy is still better than not playing at all. Quitting on your team is still quitting on your team, theres nothing more admirable than KG missing games he couldve played, whereas Tmac atleast put forth some kind of effort. Again 90% capacity is better than 0%. Tmac played when there was a reason to, BOTH players did, how they avoided injuries is different. Tmac played, KG didnt.

Like I said, when a player misses a handful of games like KG did, it is unlikely his decision alone. I don't agree with your math either. 90% capacity is not better than 0%. That's just playing with numbers and doesn't mean all that much. I'd rather have the player sit than have them play at less than 100%. That is, unless they're tough as hell and play at 100% even though they're not physically up to it -- Willis Reed comes to mind. :D

DODGERS&LAKERS
01-04-2009, 12:09 AM
Hey Chonz, go look in the MVP thread real quick. You can see what I was talking about when it comes to some people using PER as the end all be all. Look at cahawk's post. And there are many more like him. They are the ones that use a players PER as end all be all reasoning. My F.U. was not to John Hollinger, it was actually an F.U. to people that never read his reasoning for the stats as well as his warnings that it does not take into account other variables. cahawk says Lebron has been the best for several years because he has had a higher PER.

If everyone thought that way, I guess David Robinson is the 3rd best player ever. Charles Barkley is better than Magic and Kareem. T Mac is better than Jerry West and Dirk is better than Hakeem.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 12:10 AM
Telling people they're wrong is a bad habit man. You're better than that. You don't need to resort to that.
I didnt say it from the get go, I tried to see your point of view, it just made no sense. There is no way you can give props to a player for not playin his teams final games, then go and blame a player for playing but just making sure he doesnt injure himself.



Like I said, when a player misses a handful of games like KG did, it is unlikely his decision alone.
But its still his decision, he couldve played he just chose not to, besides basing your argument on the likelihood of something rather than facts isnt credible. Especially when you consider that the team sat Tmac out its last 9 games.


I don't agree with your math either. 90% capacity is not better than 0%. That's just playing with numbers and doesn't mean all that much. I'd rather have the player sit than have them play at less than 100%.
Both KG and Tmac couldve played, Tmac just couldnt sit out most of the season because thats going overboard. Im not playing with the numbers, Im telling you the facts. Once their teams were going nowhere Tmac played to avoid injury, KG didnt play to avoid injury. There is nothing more admirable about either one.


That is, unless they're tough as hell and play at 100% even though they're not physically up to it -- Willis Reed comes to mind. :D

Willis Reed wouldnt have played if it wasnt a Finals game. Does that make him any less tougher?

Chronz
01-04-2009, 12:29 AM
Hey Chonz, go look in the MVP thread real quick. You can see what I was talking about when it comes to some people using PER as the end all be all. Look at cahawk's post. And there are many more like him. They are the ones that use a players PER as end all be all reasoning. My F.U. was not to John Hollinger, it was actually an F.U. to people that never read his reasoning for the stats as well as his warnings that it does not take into account other variables. cahawk says Lebron has been the best for several years because he has had a higher PER.
Then maybe you should direct the F U towards cahawks, then again its alot harder to get banned when you diss the inventor rather than the member. Look I dont care if you hate either one, PER itself is nothing but a gimmick, its but 1 form of measuring efficiency. There are different aspects to the game but that is totally outside the realm of statistics. I dont see the point of mentioning them with PER when PER isnt trying to combine the intangibles.



If everyone thought that way, I guess David Robinson is the 3rd best player ever. Charles Barkley is better than Magic and Kareem. T Mac is better than Jerry West and Dirk is better than Hakeem.
David Robinson was one of the greatest REGULAR SEASON players of all time, check out his playoff PER for some perspective on where his failures as a player lie.

Barkleys career PER is equal to Kareems because he didnt play as long, thus didnt play through his declining stages as much as Kareem did. Magic retired in the middle of his PEAK years, his PER as a 36 year old after a 5 year lay off was greater than Barkley's at the same age. Great PG's are typically the most underrated by PER because the leadership they possess is usually held higher regard than any other position, after all they have the greatest impact on making players around them better, Magic was greater than Chuck but it wasnt because his stats were. It was because Chuck was an undersized PF with limited defense, while Magic was able to play any position the team needed and made his teammates much better than Chuck ever could. There is more to the game, PER is only a method that tries to find the right balance between usage and efficiency.

Jerry played in the era before 3pt shooting, Dirk wasnt the best defender the league has ever seen the way Hakeem was. I get your point but you should stop blaming PER and start using it to your advantage.

NYYankeesWin#27
01-04-2009, 01:00 AM
O-v-e-r-r-a-t-e-d

ink
01-04-2009, 01:54 AM
I didnt say it from the get go, I tried to see your point of view, it just made no sense. There is no way you can give props to a player for not playin his teams final games, then go and blame a player for playing but just making sure he doesnt injure himself.

There's no contradiction in what I said. I've explained it clearly two or three times. There's a big difference between KG and TMac's situations. You tried to give an example. I disagree with it. I don't think it's valid. It's presumptuous of you to assume you're right or that my point doesn't make sense. I see you doing it all the time with other posters. You make good side points -- which this point about KG is -- but it's a bit of a reach -- and then you claim to be right. I don't buy it. KG and TMac are very different players, and their respective situations with the TWolves and the Magic aren't exact parallels by any stretch. And I didn't give props to KG for not playing his team's final games, I said that it wasn't likely that he made the decision alone. I'm sure management played a big role in him not playing.


But its still his decision, he couldve played he just chose not to, besides basing your argument on the likelihood of something rather than facts isnt credible. Especially when you consider that the team sat Tmac out its last 9 games.

You're basing your argument on a speculation that KG faked an injury. Since you weren't the TWolves trainer at the time, you aren't basing your point on fact either. In the end, you have to look at the big picture -- which is that KG towers over TMac (despite the fact that Garnett has been a major *** this season) and now has one more ring than TMac will ever have. TMac has bailed on two clubs already and seems to be bailing on a third. He's only into his 5th season with the Rockets and that's the longest commitment he's ever made to a team. Garnett played his heart out for his first and only other team, and then when it was obvious after 12 seasons as the rock of the franchise that they would never win together, the team and he worked out a split. And btw, this isn't a TMac-KG comparison thread. Like I said, you made a good side point comparing the two players. Your mistake is in thinking that you made an air tight comparison, and not letting it go when it wasn't persuasive. No offense intended. We just don't agree.

You're tackling a tough one, trying to defend TMac as a star when so many have such doubts about his career. It hasn't been that distinguished, no matter how you try to rationalize the quitting he has done in the past. :shrug:

JordansBulls
01-04-2009, 02:28 AM
I'm not blaming it all on McGrady, just pointing out all of McGrady's character flaws as the season he was never a star.

McGrady tried to find a quick way to win a ring, but he's as far from a ring now as he was in Orlando. It's funny seeing it now that McGrady probably would have had an easier time if he stayed with the Magic.

I'd also like to point out that it's not all his fault. He was born soft with a poor attitude and a losers mentality. The biggest problem McGrady had is living up to expectations due to media hype. He couldn't handle it and that's why he will never be a star.

What makes a star? Does Grant Hill classify as one back in the day?

Chronz
01-04-2009, 02:47 AM
There's no contradiction in what I said. I've explained it clearly two or three times. There's a big difference between KG and TMac's situations.
You based it off of speculation, Im basing my opinion on the fact that neither is more admirable and as a result neither can be frowned upon more than the other. As it turns out your assumptions were wrong, Ill explain in detail but suffice to say Glen Taylor most definitely didnt want KG to sit out. They did in 05-06 but not the year after. Either case applies


You tried to give an example. I disagree with it. I don't think it's valid. It's presumptuous of you to assume you're right or that my point doesn't make sense. I see you doing it all the time with other posters. You make good side points -- which this point about KG is -- but it's a bit of a reach -- and then you claim to be right. I don't buy it. KG and TMac are very different players, and their respective situations with the TWolves and the Magic aren't exact parallels by any stretch.
The only reason they arent precisely the same is because KG was in the playoff race alot longer than Tmac, but once it was clear that neither team wasnt making the playoffs both supplied less than 100% of their abilities.


And I didn't give props to KG for not playing his team's final games, I said that it wasn't likely that he made the decision alone. I'm sure management played a big role in him not playing.

Turns out it was all on him, and that according to the teams owner everyone else wanted to play, he didnt want to tank, KG made that decision on his own.



You're basing your argument on a speculation that KG faked an injury. Since you weren't the TWolves trainer at the time, you aren't basing your point on fact either.
I usually have a great memory on NBA in the 00's, if KG was suffering something serious I wouldve remembered it. He was fit to play, then all of a sudden the next day was listed on the IR.


In the end, you have to look at the big picture -- which is that KG towers over TMac (despite the fact that Garnett has been a major *** this season) and now has one more ring than TMac will ever have. TMac has bailed on two clubs already and seems to be bailing on a third. He's only into his 5th season with the Rockets and that's the longest commitment he's ever made to a team. Garnett played his heart out for his first and only other team, and then when it was obvious after 12 seasons as the rock of the franchise that they would never win together, the team and he worked out a split. And btw, this isn't a TMac-KG comparison thread. Like I said, you made a good side point comparing the two players. Your mistake is in thinking that you made an air tight comparison, and not letting it go when it wasn't persuasive. No offense intended. We just don't agree.

The point about their loyalties is taken, it was never my intent to make it seem like Tmac was more loyal than KG, hes much smarter than that, only that you cant fault him for making a career decision, not when a guy as valued as KG makes the same one, only hes actually not putting in the effort to play when fit to.


You're tackling a tough one, trying to defend TMac as a star when so many have such doubts about his career. It hasn't been that distinguished, no matter how you try to rationalize the quitting he has done in the past. :shrug:

Its really not that tough

Chronz
01-04-2009, 02:51 AM
What makes a star? Does Grant Hill classify as one back in the day?
He'll say no, Grant Hill was the Tmac of the 90's

ink
01-04-2009, 02:58 AM
The point about their loyalties is taken, it was never my intent to make it seem like Tmac was more loyal than KG, hes much smarter than that, only that you cant fault him for making a career decision, not when a guy as valued as KG makes the same one, only hes actually not putting in the effort to play when fit to.

I still don't buy the KG comparison but this isn't a comparison thread, so I'm not going to continue with that.

Where we disagree about TMac is that what you call a career decision, others call a character flaw. These "career decisions" are a nice way of covering up for flaws that have plagued his entire career -- a lack of mental toughness, dedication and tenacity. He just hasn't realized his potential no matter how you slice it.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 03:03 AM
I'm not blaming it all on McGrady, just pointing out all of McGrady's character flaws as the season he was never a star.

McGrady tried to find a quick way to win a ring, but he's as far from a ring now as he was in Orlando. It's funny seeing it now that McGrady probably would have had an easier time if he stayed with the Magic.

I'd also like to point out that it's not all his fault. He was born soft with a poor attitude and a losers mentality. The biggest problem McGrady had is living up to expectations due to media hype. He couldn't handle it and that's why he will never be a star.

Sorry Troph, I didnt notice you responded until I saw JB's response. Tmac has so much more going on for him than to simply judge him by who he was in his worst season as a pro up to that point. His character was that of someone who was pissed to be in that position. How exactly should he have handled it, Kobe wanted out of LA after making the playoffs. The only difference between Tmac wanting out and Kobe wanting out is that LA called Kobe's bluff and built a contender around him with the Pau robbery. Both players singled out members on their squad and expressed frustration with the talent level around him. At the time of the trade, Tmacs management consisted of an ex hockey player with no basketball IQ who just barely got the job only to lose it later on. I wouldnt blame him for leaving. Hindsight is 20/2... well you know how the cliche gos

The biggest problem Tmac had was his back, he handled the star role just fine.

{}
01-04-2009, 03:05 AM
Never was a star hey? All he's ever done is be the league leader in scoring. big deal rigjt

A media star because of his dunking ability and a non-critical look at his PPG. Was he ever a dominate player though? His barely managed 40 win seasons during his alleged superstar years as a low percentage scoring machine. A dumb look at the stats is one thing, and how those numbers translates to team play and team wins is another. Tmac never was a dominate player that made his team better. Just a NBA equivalent of Paris Hilton that got alot of attention from the nightly sports highlight reels.

ink
01-04-2009, 03:06 AM
He'll say no, Grant Hill was the Tmac of the 90's

I thought Grant Hill was the MJ of the 90's. :p It's a fair comparison though - him and TMac. He's a shadow of his earlier career, even though I really like Grant as a player. Because of injury, his career never turned out the way it might have. I wouldn't call him a star anymore, and it's only his previous fame and great character that have let him keep the profile he has today. He's become a very effective role player, and remains a great teammate.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 03:12 AM
I still don't buy the KG comparison but this isn't a comparison thread, so I'm not going to continue with that.
Nice way of dodging the KG made a career decision to sit out the games on his own. Changes your perception of him abit doesnt it, well my point is that it shouldnt. Players make career decisions all the time, JJ leaving a team on the cusp of a championship for a team that was atleast 4 years away is far more disgraceful than Tmac saving himself for a team that could use his talent to win, should we call out JJ's character?

How about Kobes when he didnt shoot in the biggest game of his life up to that point. Or when Wilt forced his way out of 2 teams, how about Shaq moving to LA, Charles Barkley? Players arent saints, expecting them to go all out all the time regardless of what theyve done in the past is naive.


Where we disagree about TMac is that what you call a career decision, others call a character flaw.
There is nothing wrong with saving your body for a team that can compete, not when your an injury proned player to begin with. Why would you play 100% when the end result is your still not going to win or be in the playoffs and possibly lower your chances for a good draft pick. If Tmac had gone all out the Magic likely wouldnt have gotten Dwight.


These "career decisions" are a nice way of covering up for flaws that have plagued his entire career -- a lack of mental toughness, dedication and tenacity. He just hasn't realized his potential no matter how you slice it.

He had the dedication, players dont possess his basketball IQ and skill set without working on their game endlessly, the reason he never realized his potential is due to his health, other than that hes been a pretty legendary player, just not as bright as some of his peers.

{}
01-04-2009, 03:12 AM
The biggest problem Tmac had was his back, he handled the star role just fine.

In an Americal Idol sort of way. Mindless notoriety aside, what did he ever accomplish as the star player? His teams barely managed 40 wins during a time the eastern conference was at its weakest. He won a single game in 01, a single playoff game in 02 and had an epic choke job in 03 which lead to a mental collapse and resulted in only 21 wins the following season; the leagues worst record including a 22 losing streak and Tmac self-admittedly quitting on his team by faking injuries.

Was there anything special about his days in Toronto? All he did was whine and complain about living in Vince Carter's shadow. If you like self-centered and immature NBA Diva's then Tmac is at the top of the list. If you like winning and all the intangibles that define a great player, then Tmac fails miserably. Face it dude, Tmac is the NBA equivalent of Paris Hilton courtesy of all the attention he got on nightly highlight reels.

YankeeFan89
01-04-2009, 03:12 AM
T-Mac is still a star.. he doesn't deserve to start over CP3 but he's still a Star. T-Mac doesn't need to score 30 points a game for the Rockets to win. If he was the lone star on a bad team he would put up those numbers. He's becoming a very good assist guy as his career is coming to an end, but still shows signs that he still can score in times when needed.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 03:28 AM
A media star because of his dunking ability and a non-critical look at his PPG. Was he ever a dominate player though?
Yes he was, and Im not lookin at his PPG, nor his scoring titles, arbitrary awards mean nothing to me, only performance. Tmac was a dominant player.


His barely managed 40 win seasons during his alleged superstar years as a low percentage scoring machine.
Thats because the players around him sucked so bad, and he wasnt a low percentage player. He was actually one of the most efficient players in the league.


A dumb look at the stats is one thing, and how those numbers translates to team play and team wins is another.
So tell us, how efficient was Tmac and how did he effect his teams offense? Heres a hint, OFFENSE was never Orlando's biggest problem. It couldve been better but given the talent their ranking was impressive, what always cost Orlando victories was rebounding and defense. Those dont fall on Tracy, he was often their best defender and rebounder.


Tmac never was a dominate player that made his team better. Just a NBA equivalent of Paris Hilton that got alot of attention from the nightly sports highlight reels.

You play this card alot, but what do you say when the person who says Tmac was elite doesnt care for sports reels? The Tmac youve seen in Houston isnt the same Tmac that played for Orlando, its sad but true.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 03:29 AM
I thought Grant Hill was the MJ of the 90's. :p It's a fair comparison though - him and TMac. He's a shadow of his earlier career, even though I really like Grant as a player. Because of injury, his career never turned out the way it might have. I wouldn't call him a star anymore, and it's only his previous fame and great character that have let him keep the profile he has today. He's become a very effective role player, and remains a great teammate.

I wouldnt call Tmac a star now either, he hasnt been an elite player for quite some time now, atleast in terms of regular season play, hes always amped it up for the playoffs though.

ink
01-04-2009, 03:32 AM
Nice way of dodging the KG made a career decision to sit out the games on his own.

lol. Give it up man. I'm not convinced by what you're saying about the career decision stuff, and I don't think you're even paying attention to what I'm saying.


Players make career decisions all the time, JJ leaving a team on the cusp of a championship for a team that was atleast 4 years away is far more disgraceful than Tmac saving himself for a team that could use his talent to win, should we call out JJ's character?

People have. Suns fans did at the time.


How about Kobes when he didnt shoot in the biggest game of his life up to that point. Or when Wilt forced his way out of 2 teams, how about Shaq moving to LA, Charles Barkley? Players arent saints, expecting them to go all out all the time regardless of what theyve done in the past is naive.

Problem with all the examples you just gave are that all of them are champions. People have also criticized Kobe for last year's game 6, Wilt forcing his way out of 2 teams, Shaq moving to LA, etc.


There is nothing wrong with saving your body for a team that can compete, not when your an injury proned player to begin with. Why would you play 100% when the end result is your still not going to win or be in the playoffs and possibly lower your chances for a good draft pick.

Looks like bailing on teams hasn't worked out for TMac, so the end hasn't justified the means.


If Tmac had gone all out the Magic likely wouldnt have gotten Dwight.

There are a whole bunch of hypotheticals wrapped up in that bit of 20/20 hindsight. :eyebrow:


He had the dedication, players dont possess his basketball IQ and skill set without working on their game endlessly, the reason he never realized his potential is due to his health, other than that hes been a pretty legendary player, just not as bright as some of his peers.

The type of dedication you're talking about isn't unique in the NBA. A lot of the players that stick in the NBA work on their game endlessly. Look, you obviously like him, that's fine. I've never had that much belief in his impact on a team. It's not just because of injury that he hasn't had success. He was healthy enough two playoffs ago when he said that these playoffs were on him, and then he couldn't get his team out of the first round.

ink
01-04-2009, 03:35 AM
I wouldnt call Tmac a star now either, he hasnt been an elite player for quite some time now, atleast in terms of regular season play, hes always amped it up for the playoffs though.

At least we agree on that. :D

Chronz
01-04-2009, 03:55 AM
:laugh2:

Give it up man. I'm not convinced by what you're saying, and I don't think you're even paying attention to what I'm saying.
I am, you said it likely wasnt KG's decision to sit out, it was entirely. Does that make his decision any less responsible? I dont know how much more convincing you need seeing as how your biggest reasoning behind liking KG's decision was that he didnt make the choice on his own. When my stance is neither one should be blamed for making the SMART move.



People have. Suns fans did at the time.
Suns fans should, NBA fans shouldnt. Why criticize a player for doing what he thought was best for his career. Whether he was right or wrong is irrelevant, its their legacy to do with what they want.



Problem with all the examples you just gave are that all of them, except Barkley, are champions. People have also criticized Kobe for last year's game 6, Wilt forcing his way out of 2 teams, Shaq moving to LA, etc.
They werent champions at the time of the fiasco (aside from Kobe), and all of them were greater players than Tmac. Still doesnt change the fact that what they did was the same as Tmac. Wanting out of a bad situation never gos over easy, but it shouldnt define a players career.



Looks like bailing on teams hasn't worked out for TMac, so the end hasn't justified the means.

Id say it has, hes had a few season with top 5 MVP finishes, some of the most winning seasons of his career. How was he to know that the the moron known as Wiesbrood would call it quits after a few months, or that the happy kid out of high school would be the 2nd coming of Moses Malone, or that Yao would get injured? Had he stayed he couldve been worse off.


There are a whole bunch of hypotheticals wrapped up in that bit of 20/20 hindsight. :eyebrow:

So does assuming Tmac shouldnt have wanted out of Orlando because it didnt meet your criteria for success.



The type of dedication you're talking about isn't unique in the NBA. A lot of the players that stick in the NBA work on their game endlessly.
Then why say he doesnt have the commitment? What kind of commitment are you asking for?


Look, you obviously like him, that's fine. I've never had that much belief in his impact on a team. It's not just because of injury. He was healthy enough two playoffs ago when he said that these playoffs were on him, and then he couldn't get his team out of the first round.
Thats why you never had belief on his impact, you dont classify his career into the proper segments. He wasnt the Tracy of old 2 years ago, he had a better team but he himself was a lesser player. Like I said from the beginning by the time Tmac got the help he wasnt a superstar anymore, from then on he was a different player, still a great one but not historically great. It takes more talent to win when your star player isnt historically good. The Jazz had the better TEAM that year. I dont see how you can fault Tmac for losing that series, yes he said it was on him, he also said he did that to take pressure off of his teammates. The fact that they failed him shouldnt be held against him. Afterall Yao was the teams best player who was lit up and played below his regular season play, shouldnt he bear more of the burden of defeat? No because Tmac and Yao did their part, it was the role players who couldnt maintain the effectiveness required for the team to win the way they won all year.

ink
01-04-2009, 04:28 AM
I am, you said it likely wasnt KG's decision to sit out, it was entirely. Does that make his decision any less responsible? I dont know how much more convincing you need seeing as how your biggest reasoning behind liking KG's decision was that he didnt make the choice on his own. When my stance is neither one should be blamed for making the SMART move.

First of all, it was your example. I acknowledged it was a good side point. Here's my point again: if a player is injured he shouldn't dress; if he's healthy he should play 100%; if he wants out, he should either give 100% or talk to management and wear street clothes. These players have responsibilities. They get a hell of a lot of money, they have a lot of fans, and there are reasonable expectations on them to play their ***** off in whatever situation they find themselves in -- no ifs, ands or buts.


Suns fans should, NBA fans shouldnt. Why criticize a player for doing what he thought was best for his career. Whether he was right or wrong is irrelevant, its their legacy to do with what they want.

Because he gave a half-hearted effort ON THE COURT. Business happens off the court. He should have been capable of separating the two. I've said several times that I consider that a lot worse than sitting out. When you're on the court, you give everything you have.


They werent champions at the time of the fiasco (aside from Kobe), and all of them were greater players than Tmac. Still doesnt change the fact that what they did was the same as Tmac. Wanting out of a bad situation never gos over easy, but it shouldnt define a players career.

I don't remember any of those other players putting out a half-hearted effort because they wanted out. One thing that's consistent with me is that I have no time for players that pout and complain -- especially when they can't deliver when they get the chance they pouted and complained to have -- namely reaching the playoffs and having a chance to do something in the post-season. Kobe, Shaq, Barkley, Wilt -- they all delivered. Barkley didn't win with the Suns, but he brought them so close. Kobe did amazing things in leading his team last post-season. McGrady has flopped. The NBA is harsh. You can't complain and dog it as much as he has and then flop when you get your chance. Not if you want fans to continue to respect you as a star.


Id say it has, hes had a few season with top 5 MVP finishes, some of the most winning seasons of his career.

That's great if individual awards were all he was going for, but I think we both agree that he wanted more than that.


So does assuming Tmac shouldnt have wanted out of Orlando because it didnt meet your criteria for success.

:confused: My criteria for success is pretty standard. Win when it matters most.


Then why say he doesnt have the commitment? What kind of commitment are you asking for?

To the team he's playing for. Whatever that team is.


Thats why you never had belief on his impact, you dont classify his career into the proper segments.

I understand what you mean, but I don't see why I should have to classify his career into proper segments. He either leads or he doesn't lead; he either wins or he doesn't win; his stats either add up to meaningful wins or they don't. TMac's stats have not added up to meaningful wins over the span of his whole career. He's a good player, just not good enough, and the standard in this league is very high for SG's -- especially for SG's who have a rep for bailing on their teams.

Just look at Kobe. Because of the one deciding finals game last season, he knows he has to prove all over again that he can win the important games. The difference is night and day though -- Kobe has the tenacity to bring himself back to the finals and prove himself. He's also mature enough to know that it takes a team to make it happen, and what's more, now he knows what he has to do to make his team succeed.

ryanph30
01-04-2009, 04:43 AM
Alot of being a star is name recognition, so yes he definitely is

Chronz
01-04-2009, 05:09 AM
First of all, it was your example. I acknowledged it was a good side point. From the way you've tried to repeat my points, I can see you're either not reading what I said, or you're misunderstanding. Again: if a player is injured he shouldn't dress; if he's healthy he should play 100%; if he wants out, he should either give 100% or talk to management and wear street clothes. These players have responsibilities. They get a hell of a lot of money, they have a lot of fans, and there are reasonable expectations on them to play their ***** off in whatever situation they find themselves in -- no ifs, ands or buts.

Because he gave a half-hearted effort ON THE COURT. Business happens off the court. He should have been capable of separating the two. I've said several times that I consider that a lot worse than sitting out. When you're on the court, you give everything you have.
Its not about being fit to play or not, both players could play when they could (up until the final few games) but when they did play they chose not to play with complete abandon, its about playing with your head as much as your heart. What would be the point of playing with such intensity?

Im probably missing some of your key points but your stance is totally unrealistic. Shaq is one of the biggest contributors to the pacing your body method. LeBron started pacing himself as early as his 3rd year when people were wondering why he didnt go all out from beginning to end only to see him explode in the playoffs. Kobe isnt going 100% every game he plays any more, you can see it in his defensive posture on a game by game basis. Im willing to bet if things continue on their downward spiral Bosh wont stay a Raptor and barring any injuries will play much better for his new team. When Tmac was out of the playoffs his defensive focus was gone, when he joined the Rockets his first year it was back he chucked up more transition 3's and less physically damaging attempts, thats what Tmac implies when he says he couldve played harder. He was still great, he just wasnt as great as he could because it would mean exposing him to greater chances of injuries.




I don't remember any of those other players putting out a half-hearted effort because they wanted out.
Shaq did in Miami, Kobe didnt have the chance to pout seeing he was completely wrong about the players on his team. And I cant recall the specifics but Charles divorce with Philly was pretty bitter.


One thing that's consistent with me is that I have no time for players that pout and complain -- especially when they can't deliver when they get the chance they pouted and complained to have -- namely reaching the playoffs and having a chance to do something in the post-season.

Kobe, Shaq, Barkley, Wilt -- they all delivered. Barkley didn't win with the Suns, but he brought them so close. Kobe did amazing things in leading his team last post-season. McGrady has flopped.

When Tmac was playing at a historically great level he was surrounded with trash BEFORE the back injuries shaped his game. Kobe did amazing things leading his team in the series vs PHX when he was out in the first round, the only difference between Kobe then and last year is his supporting cast.


The NBA is harsh. You can't complain and dog it as much as he has and then flop when you get your chance. Not if you want fans to continue to respect you as a star.

OK so we shouldnt respect a guy who plays at an elite level, makes his team better, and raises his game in the playoffs?


That's great if individual awards were all he was going for.
What part of most WINNING seasons do you not understand? He had more TEAM success with the Rockets.



:confused: My criteria for success is pretty standard. Win when it matters most.

Your criteria is bogus, winning never boils down to the actions of a single player.



To the team he's playing for.
Yes because its such a 2 way street. Loyalty from managers is always satisfactory right. Your blind



I understand what you mean, but I don't see why I should have to classify his career into proper segments. He either leads or he doesn't lead; he either wins or he doesn't win;
Because holding a Tmac in his prime to the same standards as you would for Tmac now is pure ignorance. Its the equivalent of me calling out Shaq for not winning a title even though he has Nash and Amare on his team. Setting a players ability and role on his team to proper context is crucial in examining a players career.


his stats either add up to meaningful wins or they don't. TMac's stats have not added up to meaningful wins over the span of his whole career.
How do you quantify whether they did or didnt? What makes you the expert on how his stats have effected the team and his teammates?


He's a good player, just not good enough, and the standard in this league is very high for SG's -- especially for SG's who have a rep for bailing on their teams.
In his prime he was as good as any, I have high standards as well. Which is why Tmac in his prime is only matched by the very best.


Just look at Kobe. Because of the one deciding finals game last season, he knows he has to prove all over again that he can win the important games. The difference is night and day though -- Kobe has the tenacity to bring himself back to the finals and prove himself. He's also mature enough to know that it takes a team to make it happen, and what's more, now he knows what he has to do to make his team succeed.

Last I checked Kobes play always depended on what he felt the team needed. Early in his career he struggled with finding this harmonious balance and for 1 season when he was officially the man for the first time but since then hes been as good as hes ever been at reading his team. And despite that difference in styles Kobes was always a great player. He didnt magically transform into a better player the minute the Lakers started winning, he didnt suddenly trust his team more, its that they deserved to be trusted more. I dont buy into the media's excuse, Im more of the JVG type that agrees the teams success is attributed to the teams IQ and talent. What is a good pass to Pau Gasol may be a horrible one to make for Kwame Brown. The right pass may be to set up a shooter on the weakside, but compared to the Gasol flush is a much lower % play. Its that difference in quality of shots that determines how far Kobe can lead his team. He was just as good a leader in his first round losses as he was when he lost in the Finals.

ink
01-04-2009, 05:16 AM
Your criteria is bogus ...

Can't you even have a civil discussion?? WTF is this? :confused:

Chronz
01-04-2009, 05:21 AM
Can't you even have a civil discussion?? WTF is this? :confused:
Would you like me to edit out all the parts you find offensive, either way Im being 100% civil, there is no ill intent, Im just expressing my disbelief for your logic. If you take it personal Ill try and cut down, we just have different attitudes.

Should I use literal definitions, I can replace the term bogus with fake if thats what you want, either way Im conveying the same thought.

ink
01-04-2009, 05:26 AM
Im probably missing some of your key points but your stance is totally unrealistic. Shaq is one of the biggest contributors to the pacing your body method. LeBron started pacing himself as early as his 3rd year when people were wondering why he didnt go all out from beginning to end only to see him explode in the playoffs. Kobe isnt going 100% every game he plays any more, you can see it in his defensive posture on a game by game basis. Im willing to bet if things continue on their downward spiral Bosh wont stay a Raptor and barring any injuries will play much better for his new team. When Tmac was out of the playoffs his defensive focus was gone, when he joined the Rockets his first year it was back he chucked up more transition 3's and less physically damaging attempts, thats what Tmac implies when he says he couldve played harder. He was still great, he just wasnt as great as he could because it would mean exposing him to greater chances of injuries.

I understand pacing. Bosh, Kobe, all kinds of players pace themselves to be most effective when they need to be FOR THEIR TEAM. TMac's situation was different. He was dogging it.


Shaq did in Miami, Kobe didnt have the chance to pout seeing he was completely wrong about the players on his team. And I cant recall the specifics but Charles divorce with Philly was pretty bitter.

They've all redeemed themselves to a large degree. TMac hasn't IMO.


When Tmac was playing at a historically great level he was surrounded with trash BEFORE the back injuries shaped his game. Kobe did amazing things leading his team in the series vs PHX when he was out in the first round, the only difference between Kobe then and last year is his supporting cast.

Kobe's attitude changed a lot.


What part of most WINNING seasons do you not understand? He had more TEAM success with the Rockets.

Regular season wins aren't what he was after.


Your criteria is bogus, winning never boils down to the actions of a single player.

I don't think I said it was anywhere, and I would know that given that I talk about team so much.


Yes because its such a 2 way street. Loyalty from managers is always satisfactory right. Your blind

:drunk: lol.


Because holding a Tmac in his prime to the same standards as you would for Tmac now is pure ignorance. Its the equivalent of me calling out Shaq for not winning a title even though he has Nash and Amare on his team. Setting a players ability and role on his team to proper context is crucial in examining a players career.

That comment is pure insult.


How do you quantify whether they did or didnt? What makes you the expert on how his stats have effected the team and his teammates?

Never said I was. Just haven't seen the results to persuade me that he's a star.


In his prime he was as good as any, I have high standards as well. Which is why Tmac in his prime is only matched by the very best.

Maybe. But I don't think he measures up to the very best. I've seen others say that Carter was as good as any in his prime and I don't buy that either.


Last I checked Kobes play always depended on what he felt the team needed. Early in his career he struggled with finding this harmonious balance and for 1 season when he was officially the man for the first time but since then hes been as good as hes ever been at reading his team. And despite that difference in styles Kobes was always a great player. He didnt magically transform into a better player the minute the Lakers started winning, he didnt suddenly trust his team more, its that they deserved to be trusted more. I dont buy into the media's excuse, Im more of the JVG type that agrees the teams success is attributed to the teams IQ and talent. What is a good pass to Pau Gasol may be a horrible one to make for Kwame Brown. The right pass may be to set up a shooter on the weakside, but compared to the Gasol flush is a much lower % play. Its that difference in quality of shots that determines how far Kobe can lead his team. He was just as good a leader in his first round losses as he was when he lost in the Finals.


My point was mainly about Kobe having the will and tenacity to get himself back to the finals to redeem himself for the one game you cited.

ink
01-04-2009, 05:27 AM
Would you like me to edit out all the parts you find offensive, either way Im being 100% civil, there is no ill intent, Im just expressing my disbelief for your logic. If you take it personal Ill try and cut down, we just have different attitudes.

Should I use literal definitions, I can replace the term bogus with fake if thats what you want, either way Im conveying the same thought.

There's nothing wrong with my logic. It's pretty straightforward reasoning. If a player pouts and complains they risk losing their fans if they can't deliver when it counts.

Personally I was happy for TMac when he started out in Orlando and had some success. But then because of his pouting I lost respect for him. It got even worse when I saw him unable to deliver when he got his wish and played for a better team. That's when a person starts to see that the problem might just be with the player and not his situation.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 06:01 AM
I understand pacing. Bosh, Kobe, all kinds of players pace themselves to be most effective when they need to be FOR THEIR TEAM. TMac's situation was different. He was dogging it.
Its a different form of pacing, he wasnt dogging it to the point where he plays utterly beneath himself (Think VC in Toronto) he was playing well (All-NBA 2nd Team) he just wasnt playing with complete abandon.



They've all redeemed themselves to a large degree. TMac hasn't IMO.
None of them suffered the injuries Tmac had



Kobe's attitude changed a lot.
Thats what winning does



Regular season wins aren't what he was after.
Are you seriously trying to argue the point that he joined Houston in hopes of attaining individual awards, and NOT to WIN more games? Come on man your getting extreme now. He was after WINS, PERIOD. He joined a tougher conference, he said so himself he couldve joined an established contender like Indiana but he wanted more of a challenge and chose Houston. You dont attain more team success by losing more in the regular season.



I don't think I said it was anywhere, and I would know that given that I talk about team so much.
I asked you what your standard of success was, you said win when it matters. What else could that imply? I took it as a sign of you expecting a player to win.



:drunk: Maybe? lol.
Possibly or should I say, Obviously, which is less liable to offend you?



That comment is pure insult.
All of it true


Never said I was. Just haven't seen the results to persuade me that he's a star.

The latter is due to the former. You simply dont know much about his game and how its effected his teams.


Maybe. But I don't think he measures up to the very best. I've seen others say that Carter was as good as any in his prime and I don't buy that either.
Carter wasnt in Tmac's league



My point was mainly about Kobe having the will and tenacity to get himself back to the finals to redeem himself for the one game you

Kobe had the will and tenacity to get back to the Finals when he played against the Suns and lost in 7. The only difference was that Kwame didnt have Pau's tenacity.



There's nothing wrong with my logic. It's pretty straightforward reasoning. If a player pouts and complains they risk losing their fans if they can't deliver when it counts.

Personally I was happy for TMac when he started out in Orlando and had some success. But then because of his pouting I lost respect for him. It got even worse when I saw him unable to deliver when he got his wish and played for a better team. That's when a person starts to see that the problem might just be with the player and not his situation.
Just curious when did he start pouting in Houston? When did you see him unable to deliver? He played for a better team and got them to overachieve, just like he always has.

ink
01-04-2009, 06:09 AM
Are you seriously trying to argue the point that he joined Houston in hopes of attaining individual awards, and NOT to WIN more games? Come on man your getting extreme now. He was after WINS, PERIOD. He joined a tougher conference, he said so himself he couldve joined an established contender like Indiana but he wanted more of a challenge and chose Houston. You dont attain more team success by losing more in the regular season.

This doesn't correspond to anything I've said so I'm calling it a night. This is incoherent. I make clear points, you misunderstand them and tell me I've said something I didn't. What's the point?


The latter is due to the former. You simply dont know much about his game and how its effected his teams.

You can save the BS. You don't have to examine his entrails with a fine tooth comb to see that he had a few good years and hasn't amounted to what his fans hoped he would.

JJ81
01-04-2009, 06:18 AM
Downside of his career... they got Artest too late.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 09:11 AM
This doesn't correspond to anything I've said so I'm calling it a night. This is incoherent. I make clear points, you misunderstand them and tell me I've said something I didn't. What's the point?
You said
That's great if individual awards were all he was going for(You mustve added the other part after I began quoting you)
When the MVP is largely considered to be team oriented award as well. How could you ignore the fact that he accomplished the goal of being part of a better team? His trade to Houston, netted him better TEAM results. How else was I suppose to interpret that statement, clear is one thing you are not. A clear point would be to not beat around the bush and tell me how his trade to Houston failed him. Didnt he return to the postseason after being on a last placed team?


You can save the BS. You don't have to examine his entrails with a fine tooth comb to see that he had a few good years and hasn't amounted to what his fans hoped he would.

I havent given you any (BS that is), you have to know his game to understand he had more than just a few "good" years. He never maintained it due to bad luck, hes a 29 year old with a 50 year old back.

ink
01-04-2009, 02:25 PM
You said
That's great if individual awards were all he was going for(You mustve added the other part after I began quoting you)
When the MVP is largely considered to be team oriented award as well. How could you ignore the fact that he accomplished the goal of being part of a better team? His trade to Houston, netted him better TEAM results. How else was I suppose to interpret that statement, clear is one thing you are not. A clear point would be to not beat around the bush and tell me how his trade to Houston failed him. Didnt he return to the postseason after being on a last placed team?


I havent given you any (BS that is), you have to know his game to understand he had more than just a few "good" years. He never maintained it due to bad luck, hes a 29 year old with a 50 year old back.

We'll have to agree to disagree, especially about making clear points. :laugh2: Regarding the MVP, sure there's an element of team involved, but it's still an individual award. I've been saying all through the thread that he needed to win when it counted in the post-season. Not once did I say he was aiming for MVP awards, mainly because I couldn't care less about MVP's. We're obviously just talking past each other, but I'm not going to take shots at you because you like the guy. It's only a player we're discussing and there's no call for put downs just because we disagree about this. btw, I talked about injuries right off the top, saying that he will not be remembered as one of the greats because of injury. It's not his fault, but he will be remembered as another athlete who had a lot of potential but didn't realize it over his full career. I'd expect him to be known for a combination of remarkable talent, flashes of team and individual success, post-season frustration, bailing on a couple of teams, and being part of a generation that complained more than most. I'm sure there will be major TMac fans who will point out how those characterizations aren't really fair, but the problem is that "star" status isn't a science. It's not an exact term and the public determines who the stars are and who they're not. TMac has definitely been eclipsed in the public eye right now.

Chronz
01-04-2009, 06:54 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree, especially about making clear points. :laugh2: Regarding the MVP, sure there's an element of team involved, but it's still an individual award. I've been saying all through the thread that he needed to win when it counted in the post-season. Not once did I say he was aiming for MVP awards, mainly because I couldn't care less about MVP's.
And Ive been saying from the beginning post season success requires a TEAM EFFORT. Holding a single player accountable for the action of 12 is inept. Take as a diss if you wish but its true. Tmac led teams have always overachieved. The fact that he didnt reach the 2nd round in Houston was due to him being past his prime. Think of it this way, if he gets past the 2nd round this year, **** it lets say he makes the Finals. Is he any better of a player now, than he was in Orlando?


We're obviously just talking past each other, but I'm not going to take shots at you because you like the guy. It's only a player we're discussing and there's no call for put downs just because we disagree about this. btw, I talked about injuries right off the top, saying that he will not be remembered as one of the greats because of injury.
He was still one of the greats overall but All-Time great then yes his injuries robbed him of that. Thats entirely different than sayin he didn have the commitment or the drive. He was totally committed, and in his prime was as good as anyone.


It's not his fault, but he will be remembered as another athlete who had a lot of potential but didn't realize it over his full career. I'd expect him to be known for a combination of remarkable talent, flashes of team and individual success, post-season frustration, bailing on a couple of teams, and being part of a generation that complained more than most.
What exactly are you using as the basis for comparison between eras? What makes you think players complained more now? And yes he had tons of potential, but he still made the most out of his talent when you consider how he had to reshape his game due to those injuries.


I'm sure there will be major TMac fans who will point out how those characterizations aren't really fair, but the problem is that "star" status isn't a science. It's not an exact term and the public determines who the stars are and who they're not. TMac has definitely been eclipsed in the public eye right now.
Why do you keep talking about Tmac now?

ink
01-04-2009, 07:01 PM
And Ive been saying from the beginning post season success requires a TEAM EFFORT. Holding a single player accountable for the action of 12 is inept. Take as a diss if you wish but its true. Tmac led teams have always overachieved. The fact that he didnt reach the 2nd round in Houston was due to him being past his prime. Think of it this way, if he gets past the 2nd round this year, **** it lets say he makes the Finals. Is he any better of a player now, than he was in Orlando?

No, he's more successful. :D


He was still one of the greats overall but All-Time great then yes his injuries robbed him of that. Thats entirely different than sayin he didn have the commitment or the drive. He was totally committed, and in his prime was as good as anyone.

He can be both injured and uncommitted at different times. They're not mutually exclusive.


And yes he had tons of potential, but he still made the most out of his talent when you consider how he had to reshape his game due to those injuries.

Grant Hill had to reshape his game too. I don't consider him a "star" anymore. Just a really valuable role player. His career is often talked about as being derailed by injuries. Sad but true, injury can deny someone star status. In their prime though, I would have taken Grant over TMac. Grant is a smarter and more mature player.

NykbAlla
01-04-2009, 07:09 PM
No....He's a has been. He was great in his prime but injuries have reduced him to average

chicagowhitesox
01-04-2009, 08:50 PM
no. i wouldn't even trade luol deng for him.

JordansBulls
01-04-2009, 10:12 PM
no. i wouldn't even trade luol deng for him.

That's ridiculous. Bulls fans are trying hard to get rid of Deng's contract.