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Cubs Win
12-30-2008, 10:54 AM
I'm sure we all remember a certain thread arguing that Rondo was an elite PG although at the time he was averaging 10 pts and 7 ast.

So what stats would you say makes an elite PG?

innovator
12-30-2008, 11:04 AM
for a pass first mentality PG
15+ ppg, 8+ apg
for a score first metality PG
21+ ppg, 5+ apg

The Answer3
12-30-2008, 11:08 AM
I'd say 18 PPG/9 APG for a pass-first PG. 23 PPG/6 APG for a shoot-first PG.

Being elite also has a lot to with carrying the team, making big shots and basically how valuable you are. Like the Suns without Nash are lost on the offensive end.

Cubs Win
12-30-2008, 11:10 AM
I'd say 18 PPG/9 APG for a pass-first PG. 23 PPG/6 APG for a shoot-first PG.

Being elite also has a lot to with carrying the team, making big shots and basically how valuable you are. Like the Suns without Nash are lost on the offensive end.

That was right along the lines of what I was thinking.

bostncelts34
12-30-2008, 11:57 AM
I'd say 18 PPG/9 APG for a pass-first PG. 23 PPG/6 APG for a shoot-first PG.

Being elite also has a lot to with carrying the team, making big shots and basically how valuable you are. Like the Suns without Nash are lost on the offensive end.

Agreed. Its reall hard to define this. Cause i beleive its very situational.

Since the OP used rondo, i will too. He is definitly a pss first PG and the 4th option on the team. He is a great defender. He runs this team amazingly, has great ball control and court vision. He scores when he see's an opening but never takes a shot if a team mate could have a better one. If you put rondo on a diffrent team, where he was a 2nd or 3rd option. I have no idea what his stats would be.So its hard to say.


But, my definition of an elite PG doesnt go by stats as much, maybe (14-18 ppg and 5-8 apg. I think how he runs the team and makes them go. If you take some of these PG's off their team. How would the offense run? take out nash?cp3? and so on, you get my point. Id say you have to judge an elite PG by how they do for their team

Raps18-19 Champ
12-30-2008, 12:05 PM
People only say Rondo is an elite pg cuz he won a ring but even if rondo wasnt there, Boston would have probably won anyways

My stats would be

Scoring PG: 20+ and 6+
Passing PG: 13+ and 10+
Triple Double PG(Jason Kidd):10+,8+apg,7rpg

SteveNash
12-30-2008, 12:07 PM
Points and Assists don't make you elite.

It's like Derrick Rose. More of a scorer, not much of a playmaker, his team sucks, bad defense. Thought he has good though not elite stats.

Any team that has a PG that averages 23/6 isn't elite because it's virtually guaranteed that his team isn't going to go anywhere.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Points and Assists don't make you elite.

It's like Derrick Rose. More of a scorer, not much of a playmaker, his team sucks, bad defense. Thought he has good though not elite stats.

Any team that has a PG that averages 23/6 isn't elite because it's virtually guaranteed that his team isn't going to go anywhere.

AI use to average those stats while he averaged 30 and 7

SteveNash
12-30-2008, 12:11 PM
People only say Rondo is an elite pg cuz he won a ring but even if rondo wasnt there, Boston would have probably won anyways

My stats would be

Scoring PG: 20+ and 6+
Passing PG: 13+ and 10+
Triple Double PG(Jason Kidd):10+,8+apg,7rpg

Did you watch the playoffs at all? Sure Rondo isn't the greatest PG around and he was pretty inconsistent, but the Celtics weren't going to win with Eddie House.

SteveNash
12-30-2008, 12:12 PM
AI use to average those stats while he averaged 30 and 7

And look at how he turned out. Also, the one good season he had in terms of winning, he wasn't the PG.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-30-2008, 12:17 PM
Did you watch the playoffs at all? Sure Rondo isn't the greatest PG around and he was pretty inconsistent, but the Celtics weren't going to win with Eddie House.

Well obviosly if they didnt have rondo, they would have signed a different pg

Raps18-19 Champ
12-30-2008, 12:19 PM
And look at how he turned out. Also, the one good season he had in terms of winning, he wasn't the PG.


even in denver when he average 25 and 7, he was winning

and A.I did play some pg

They just start him at sg but in the end, he plays half his minutes at pg

JIDsanity
12-30-2008, 12:30 PM
So according to most of you Devin Harris is an elite PG right. Check the stats yourself :D

Nexus
12-30-2008, 12:39 PM
for a pass first mentality PG
15+ ppg, 8+ apg
for a score first metality PG
21+ ppg, 5+ apg


I'd say 18 PPG/9 APG for a pass-first PG. 23 PPG/6 APG for a shoot-first PG.

Being elite also has a lot to with carrying the team, making big shots and basically how valuable you are. Like the Suns without Nash are lost on the offensive end.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned defence yet. Lets look at two players who fit the mold but can't really play defence: Calderon and Nash.

Last year Calderon averaged about 14.5/9.2 as a starter and this year he's 13.2 and 8.9 playing about four games between 60-80%. But, as we all know, he's a pylon. He also shoots free throws and takes care of the ball with record setting efficiency. Is he elite? I think nearly everyone would argue that.

From 04-07 Nash won two MVPs and averaged about 17/11. He was truly the quarter back on offense, and perhaps on defense too. Ie. He shouldn't be on the field. Was he elite then? I don't think anyone is arguing that. Oh, and he was insanely clutch and could play pass first or shoot first extremely well.

For points guards I'd say one assist per game is equivalent to about two points per game. So Calderon was hovering around 15 and 8 with exchange rates in mind. Nash at 17/11 easily beats the 18/9 requirement in the second one in my opinion. I'm going to lay out my semantic and entirely irrelevant formula for an elite point guard:

(points) + (2xAssists) + (-2, -1, 0, 1, or 2) = 35 or greater

The last category, defence, is basically a rating out of five, balanced negatively so points can be taken off for pylons. Basically, with pass first PGs they have to average better than 16/9 with average defense and shoot firsts have to average better than 22 and 6 with average defense. Here those borderline PGs are:

16 18 0 = 34 ...cut
22 12 0 = 34 ...cut

Nash: 17 + 22 + (-2) = 37 ...room to spare
Calderon: 14 + 18 + (-2) = 30 ...not really close
Parker last year: 19 + 12 + 1 = 34 ...alllmost
Williams last year: 19 + 21 + 1 = 41 ...underrated!
Paul: 20 + 23 + 2 = 45 ...absolute ownage
Billups: 17.5 + 14 + 2 = 33.5 ...close
Miller: 15 + 12 + (-1) = 26 ...eep

Raps18-19 Champ
12-30-2008, 01:14 PM
So according to most of you Devin Harris is an elite PG right. Check the stats yourself :D

ya but just for this 1/3 of the season

JayW_1023
12-30-2008, 01:26 PM
Look at Baron Davis...he puts up great numbers but he never consistently won with any team. It took Derrick Rose not even one year to grow into a more mature NBA player than him.

JIDsanity
12-30-2008, 01:36 PM
ya but just for this 1/3 of the season

Do I sense a little envy, or what? ;)

Raps18-19 Champ
12-30-2008, 01:43 PM
Do I sense a little envy, or what? ;)

no i mean he only put those numbers for 1/3 the season

just like calderon put his numbers for 1/3 this season

NYstateofMinD
12-30-2008, 02:07 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned defence yet. Lets look at two players who fit the mold but can't really play defence: Calderon and Nash.

Last year Calderon averaged about 14.5/9.2 as a starter and this year he's 13.2 and 8.9 playing about four games between 60-80%. But, as we all know, he's a pylon. He also shoots free throws and takes care of the ball with record setting efficiency. Is he elite? I think nearly everyone would argue that.

From 04-07 Nash won two MVPs and averaged about 17/11. He was truly the quarter back on offense, and perhaps on defense too. Ie. He shouldn't be on the field. Was he elite then? I don't think anyone is arguing that. Oh, and he was insanely clutch and could play pass first or shoot first extremely well.

For points guards I'd say one assist per game is equivalent to about two points per game. So Calderon was hovering around 15 and 8 with exchange rates in mind. Nash at 17/11 easily beats the 18/9 requirement in the second one in my opinion. I'm going to lay out my semantic and entirely irrelevant formula for an elite point guard:

(points) + (2xAssists) + (-2, -1, 0, 1, or 2) = 35 or greater

The last category, defence, is basically a rating out of five, balanced negatively so points can be taken off for pylons. Basically, with pass first PGs they have to average better than 16/9 with average defense and shoot firsts have to average better than 22 and 6 with average defense. Here those borderline PGs are:

16 18 0 = 34 ...cut
22 12 0 = 34 ...cut

Nash: 17 + 22 + (-2) = 37 ...room to spare
Calderon: 14 + 18 + (-2) = 30 ...not really close
Parker last year: 19 + 12 + 1 = 34 ...alllmost
Williams last year: 19 + 21 + 1 = 41 ...underrated!
Paul: 20 + 23 + 2 = 45 ...absolute ownage
Billups: 17.5 + 14 + 2 = 33.5 ...close
Miller: 15 + 12 + (-1) = 26 ...eep

Im feeling this formula good idea. What about Devin Harris? How about rebounds and turnovers and shooting %?

ee
12-30-2008, 02:22 PM
They could have great stats but the impact they have and how they affect the game is what determine if the PG is elite or not.....

Nexus
12-30-2008, 03:22 PM
Im feeling this formula good idea. What about Devin Harris? How about rebounds and turnovers and shooting %?

Last year: 15.5 + 13 + 2 = 30.5
This year: 24 + 12 + 2 = 38

So, he's playing at an elite level right now. I don't really put much emphasis on thirds of seasons, but I think he can stay close to those numbers, and therefore border on eliteness.

Rebounds, turnovers and shooting would be far more complicated to integrate into a formula like this. You'll have to ask Hollinger or something lol. However, I might multiply the PPG by the shooting percentage and then keep the assists as they are (instead of multiply by two). Example:

Baron Davis last year:
= (Sh% x PPG) + (Assists) + (D)
= (.426 x 21.8) + (7.6) + (1)
= 9.3 + 7.6 + 1
= 17.9

Multiplying shot percentage by points per game exposes players who are not quite as efficient and who's numbers are inflated by taking too many shots. Many of the elite point guards shoot about .500.

As for turnovers...you could always simply minus the turnovers per game by the assists per game. But that doesn't really take into account that one turnover is worth more on the bad side than 1 assist is worth on the good side. Perhaps assists x assist to turnover ratio?

Tony Parker last year:

= (Sh% x PPG) + (Assists x A/T) + (D)
= (.494 x 18.8) + (6 x 2.52) + 1
= 9.23 + 13.2 + 1
= 23.43

What does number mean? I don't know. You'd have to do the equation for every PG and figure out a subjective rating for the numbers. At leats you can figure out gaps. I don't think this formula is very sound. It's fairly accurate in proportions though, I think. It's been too long since a serious calculus or other class. You can figure our rebounds if you want. I'm really not a fan of leaving an entire rating of a player to stats anyway. There are far too many key intangibles.