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EAGLES3658
12-29-2008, 02:03 AM
IMO the 2 best pitchers in baseball.

Who do u think is better?

EAGLES3658
12-29-2008, 02:09 AM
I think it Halladay right now but that might not be for long

Buckwheat
12-29-2008, 07:20 AM
Lincecum had one great year, people.

Halladay.

nygiants242
12-29-2008, 07:22 AM
Lincecum, young stud, amazing stuff

yahmez88
12-29-2008, 11:50 AM
as of right now halladay is better

JAYZFAN9
12-29-2008, 12:55 PM
Even in Lincecums 'breakout' last season, Doc still had a better year in the American League.

Still Doc until further notice

Twitchy
12-29-2008, 01:29 PM
For pitchers with 200+ IP, Halladay faced the highest quality of opponents out of any pitcher in the majors. The average OPS of the player that Halladay faced was 766, while Lincecum was 26th with 730. That's a pretty significant difference right there.

Since 01, Doc has only had 2 years where his ERA+ was lower than 143. Lincecum had one very good year, but it'll take more than one good year for him to be considered better than Doc.

R. Johnson#3
12-29-2008, 01:39 PM
I can't really think of any pitcher I'd want capping off my rotation. Sure there may be better pitchers in certain years but every single year Halladay is a top 5 pitcher.

Tragedy
12-29-2008, 02:04 PM
Doc Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball.

With more time under Timmy's belt, I don't see how he can't be considered the best.

con_artist
12-29-2008, 03:01 PM
Everyone loves Doc

Linc could be better in the future but it's gonna take a bunch more good seasons for me to consider him better than halladay

championmets
12-29-2008, 03:03 PM
In 2009 i'll easily take Halladay

20 years from now when it is all said and done, that will be an interesting argument

by the way, JOhan is better

JAYZFAN9
12-29-2008, 04:33 PM
^ didnt know johan was part of this comparison

x_notorious
12-29-2008, 04:58 PM
As of right now, Halladay, who IMO is the best pitcher in baseball. We still have to see if Lincecum continues his dominance.

Driven
12-29-2008, 05:34 PM
Halladay, easily.

acousticmike80
12-29-2008, 05:50 PM
Halladay. End of discussion.

Gigantes4Life
12-29-2008, 08:13 PM
In 2009 i'll easily take Halladay

20 years from now when it is all said and done, that will be an interesting argument

by the way, JOhan is better

Actually, Lincecum and Halladay were both better than Johan in 2008.

Lincecum had the better season, but not by much. I think it if Lincecum repeats then this discussion will be a lot closer. I'm going to say Halladay right now simply because he does it every single year.

R. Johnson#3
12-29-2008, 09:07 PM
Just to give an idea on how good Halladay is. If he wasn't on the Jays all of you guys wouldn't know there's a team in Canada.

Rochesta
12-29-2008, 09:47 PM
I'd take Lincecum due to his age, but get back to me when Lincecum has Doc's track record.

JAYZFAN9
12-29-2008, 10:25 PM
Actually, Lincecum and Halladay were both better than Johan in 2008.

Lincecum had the better season, but not by much. I think it if Lincecum repeats then this discussion will be a lot closer. I'm going to say Halladay right now simply because he does it every single year.

What stats are you looking at? IIRC, doc had the better WHIP, BB:K, Opp OBA. all while pitching in the gauntlet we like to call the AL East. Put Doc in the mediocre NL West and its scary to think of the #'s he would put up

quiksilver2491
12-29-2008, 10:43 PM
Just to give an idea on how good Halladay is. If he wasn't on the Jays all of you guys wouldn't know there's a team in Canada.

Wait, there actually is a team in Canada :confused: (sarcasm)

drty snchz
12-29-2008, 11:01 PM
if i had a dollar for every time i said: "this cant be a serious thread"? in this forum:rolleyes:

McJoe
12-29-2008, 11:25 PM
Lincecum is GOOD and he is going to be VERY GOOD but he isnt Halladay yet.

championmets
12-30-2008, 12:32 AM
Actually, Lincecum and Halladay were both better than Johan in 2008.

Lincecum had the better season, but not by much. I think it if Lincecum repeats then this discussion will be a lot closer. I'm going to say Halladay right now simply because he does it every single year.

Johan had more quality starts than any other pitcher in baseball, but he got no run support, I think johans year total run support was like 4.1 per 9 which was one of the lowest in baseball, I think he had a better season than Lincecum.

I think a better comparison would be halladay v. Johan cause they are both at about the same stage in their career

07MVPPatBurrell
12-30-2008, 12:47 AM
In 2009 i'll easily take Halladay

20 years from now when it is all said and done, that will be an interesting argument

by the way, JOhan is better

homer.

Old Sweater
12-30-2008, 01:06 AM
IMO the 2 best pitchers in baseball.

Who do u think is better?


What? No numbers to look at?

I can see why. At this point in time Lincecum don't have any to compare to the horse from Colorado.

NYMetros
12-30-2008, 01:50 AM
IMO Halladay is the best pitcher in the game.

Gigantes4Life
12-30-2008, 01:58 AM
What stats are you looking at? IIRC, doc had the better WHIP, BB:K, Opp OBA. all while pitching in the gauntlet we like to call the AL East. Put Doc in the mediocre NL West and its scary to think of the #'s he would put up

tRA and pRAA.

I will agree with you that Halladay would be better in the NL West, but we don't know how accurately measue that.


Johan had more quality starts than any other pitcher in baseball, but he got no run support, I think johans year total run support was like 4.1 per 9 which was one of the lowest in baseball, I think he had a better season than Lincecum.

I think a better comparison would be halladay v. Johan cause they are both at about the same stage in their career

I don't give a **** how many quality starts Johan had. That's not a stat you use to judge a pitcher.

Why would that be a better comparison, Halladay is better than Johan and has proved it the last couple years. Lincecum and Halladay were on the same level in 2008, Lincecum just hasn't pitched as long.

Buckwheat
12-30-2008, 07:34 AM
In 2009 i'll easily take Halladay

20 years from now when it is all said and done, that will be an interesting argument

by the way, JOhan is better

:laugh2:

Congrats on Johan being better. He pitched well in the playoffs.

acousticmike80
12-30-2008, 09:36 AM
:laugh2:

Congrats on Johan being better. He pitched well in the playoffs.

Almost as well as Lincecum or Halladay did.

bagwell368
12-30-2008, 11:54 AM
^ didnt know johan was part of this comparison

Well if you are picking big time current pitchers to compare, ought they not be the best, and he's right Santana is the best dating back to '03 - and Halladay is 2nd, and with that funky delivery Lincecum could be out of the game in a year or two.

bartoron
12-30-2008, 12:00 PM
Almost as well as Lincecum or Halladay did.

They both play on Minor League teams, not their faults.

Halladay
12-30-2008, 12:12 PM
This isn't even a debate. It's Halladay without a doubt. Timmy has had one cy young season where Halladay has been that good for a very,very long time. Lincecum has a long way to go before he's an elite pitcher in my books. I'm not taking anything away from Lincecum but he's being compared to the best pitcher in baseball who's been pitching this well for the last 6+ years.

jcphik
12-30-2008, 12:16 PM
Halladay. 5 years from now, its probably going to be Timmy. Whatever happened to Poncho, he was a HUGE Timmy fan, right?

Halladay
12-30-2008, 12:37 PM
pretty sure every Giants fan loves Timmy...

jcphik
12-30-2008, 12:46 PM
pretty sure every Giants fan loves Timmy...

And Matt Cain...

HighVelocity
12-30-2008, 04:06 PM
As of right now, Halladay, who IMO is the best pitcher in baseball. We still have to see if Lincecum continues his dominance.

Ditto

SmoothOperator
12-30-2008, 04:53 PM
I'd take Halladay for sure. Dominates the game just as much if not more, just not in the form of strikeouts(to the same degree). The thing that really puts him over the top for me is his ability to go deep in games, he is an oldschool pitcher.

UofA
12-30-2008, 11:47 PM
Now: Halladay

Gigantes4Life
12-31-2008, 02:48 AM
Well if you are picking big time current pitchers to compare, ought they not be the best, and he's right Santana is the best dating back to '03 - and Halladay is 2nd, and with that funky delivery Lincecum could be out of the game in a year or two.

By pitching Halladay could be out of the game in a year or two as well :shrug:

Lincecum is mechanically safer than most pitchers in baseball.


Halladay. 5 years from now, its probably going to be Timmy. Whatever happened to Poncho, he was a HUGE Timmy fan, right?

Permabanned.

bagwell368
12-31-2008, 09:41 AM
Lincecum is mechanically safer than most pitchers in baseball.

I teach the one entire motion to my kids - like Lincecum, not the choppy one step at a time that leads to shoulder problems. But his arm whip velocity is off the page and there is no telling what that will do. I have my kids keep a bend in the elbow and be worrying about deceleration much earlier then he does.

Old Sweater
12-31-2008, 01:44 PM
I teach the one entire motion to my kids - like Lincecum, not the choppy one step at a time that leads to shoulder problems. But his arm whip velocity is off the page and there is no telling what that will do. I have my kids keep a bend in the elbow and be worrying about deceleration much earlier then he does.


When I look at the still pictures of Lincecum pitching it scares the heck out of me. Reminds me somewhat of the bogus report of Sid Finch. I sure as heck hope the Paperboys arm can hold up.

dodgersuck
12-31-2008, 01:48 PM
now, lincecum

future, lincecum

yaowowrocket11
12-31-2008, 03:24 PM
Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. He never gets injured, and is the most consistent player in the league. I would put Santana #2, and maybe Lincecum #3. But IMO, Halladay is easily better than Lincecum.

Seamhead
12-31-2008, 03:51 PM
I teach the one entire motion to my kids - like Lincecum, not the choppy one step at a time that leads to shoulder problems. But his arm whip velocity is off the page and there is no telling what that will do. I have my kids keep a bend in the elbow and be worrying about deceleration much earlier then he does.

Here's a good mechanical analysis of Tim Lincecum:

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/TimLincecum.html

Just felt like sharing.

kpaul_nyc
12-31-2008, 03:58 PM
Halladay is better in this point in time.
Halladay faces better talent than Santana, and puts up comprable numbers, making him the best pitcher in baseball (IMO).
Lincecum has amazing stuff and we can definitely revisit this argument in a few years.

bagwell368
12-31-2008, 04:45 PM
OK, lets check Santana vs. Halladay a bit closer:

2 outs RISP BA/OBP/SLG against:

Santana .203/.281/.321
Halladay .228/.311/.339

Hmmm... pretty clear edge for Santana, oh what's that you say? Weak opponents for Santana. Well here is a list of the AL teams not including Minn or Tor, and let's take a look. Also Toronto is a bit harder for hitters then Minn about 1.25% harder during these years, so keep that in mind when you read the raw stats I present.

Against various AL Teams

team Santana - Halladay - ERA - first group Santana > Halladay; bolded means more then .75 ERA delta

Oak - 3.01 --- 4.54 +1.53
Bos - 3.40 --- 4.46 +1.06
Tex - 4.31 --- 5.34 +1.03
TBD - 2.79 --- 3.74 +0.95
LAA - 4.23 --- 4.63 +0.40
Cle - 3.42 --- 3.73 +0.31
NYY - 2.86 --- 3.15 + 0.29
CHW - 3.24 -- 3.40 + 0.16


Det -2.86 --- 1.93 +0.93 this group Halladay > Santana
Balt - 3.76 --- 2.86 +0.90
KCR - 3.60 --- 2.90 +0.70
Sea - 2.79 --- 2.67 +0.12

You know what is funny about these 4 teams, besides the couple of strong years Detroit had, I don't see any dominant teams with the bat.... so where were you looking when you made the statement that Santana has weak opponents compared to Mr. Uber Over Rated? Your belly button lint?

It's also funny that people make claims when they don't know what they are talking about. Clearly Santana > Halladay - not by a lot - but by enough & Lincecum is undersized (in terms other then talking about impressive new guys on the stage the past couple of years) yet and has to be thrown back for a few years before he is worthy of any sort of longer range comparison.

p.s. sorry about the font...

07MVPPatBurrell
12-31-2008, 05:40 PM
it would be interesting to see the sample sizes of these. TB, santana faced when they sucked. halladay faced them 1-2 times this year, a world series club. are these career numbers ? from the past 5 years ?

bagwell368
12-31-2008, 07:04 PM
it would be interesting to see the sample sizes of these. TB, santana faced when they sucked. halladay faced them 1-2 times this year, a world series club. are these career numbers ? from the past 5 years ?

They are career numbers. Someone else can put down the GS figures obviously a few more in ALC for Santana and more for Halladay in the AL East.

The point is that I believe in just about every case there were between 10-50 starts for each against each team I posted. The fact that Santana had more "wins" in his column and more "convincing" wins in his column against common opponents should shut up all but the most mutated Halladay fans, and they are going to stick to the story anyhow so their wittle ego's don't take too much of a beating.

Santana > Halladay

Who is to say what is what 15 years from now.

Buck Foston
01-01-2009, 06:43 PM
Halladay. Guy gives you innings, strikeouts, a good ERA in a tough division, etc. I do like Lincecum and last season was amazing for him, but I'm not going to crown him as the best after one season.

Twitchy
01-02-2009, 02:33 AM
OK, lets check Santana vs. Halladay a bit closer:

2 outs RISP BA/OBP/SLG against:

Santana .203/.281/.321
Halladay .228/.311/.339

Hmmm... pretty clear edge for Santana, oh what's that you say? Weak opponents for Santana. Well here is a list of the AL teams not including Minn or Tor, and let's take a look. Also Toronto is a bit harder for hitters then Minn about 1.25% harder during these years, so keep that in mind when you read the raw stats I present.

Against various AL Teams

team Santana - Halladay - ERA - first group Santana > Halladay; bolded means more then .75 ERA delta

Oak - 3.01 --- 4.54 +1.53
Bos - 3.40 --- 4.46 +1.06
Tex - 4.31 --- 5.34 +1.03
TBD - 2.79 --- 3.74 +0.95
LAA - 4.23 --- 4.63 +0.40
Cle - 3.42 --- 3.73 +0.31
NYY - 2.86 --- 3.15 + 0.29
CHW - 3.24 -- 3.40 + 0.16


Det -2.86 --- 1.93 +0.93 this group Halladay > Santana
Balt - 3.76 --- 2.86 +0.90
KCR - 3.60 --- 2.90 +0.70
Sea - 2.79 --- 2.67 +0.12

You know what is funny about these 4 teams, besides the couple of strong years Detroit had, I don't see any dominant teams with the bat.... so where were you looking when you made the statement that Santana has weak opponents compared to Mr. Uber Over Rated? Your belly button lint?

It's also funny that people make claims when they don't know what they are talking about. Clearly Santana > Halladay - not by a lot - but by enough & Lincecum is undersized (in terms other then talking about impressive new guys on the stage the past couple of years) yet and has to be thrown back for a few years before he is worthy of any sort of longer range comparison.

p.s. sorry about the font...

First of all - you're using 2 outs RISP BA/OBP/SLG against as a criteria? That's hilarious. Could you have picked a more obscure stat that has absolutely no bearing on a pitchers effectiveness or controllable factors?

I call your obscure stat of 2 out with RISP and raise you pitches per inning. Santana threw 15.4 and Doc averaged 14.5 - so Doc was more efficient.

Pretty clear edge for Doc, wouldn't you say :rolleyes:?

By the way, you did that whole list to come up with the quality of opponents faced, and you didn't even bother to show the quality of the opponents faced? You know there's a stat that tells you that... and it's called Pitcher's quality of batters faced. I'll even show you the results of the batters faced, as well as where they rank among other pitchers who threw the innings minimum...

2008 - These are #'s for pitchers with 200+IP.

#1 = Doc, 766 OPS
#18 = Santana, 737

2007 - same deal, 200+ IP

#1 - Doc 775 OPS
#9 - Santana, 759

2006 - same deal, 200 + IP

Doc - #19, 762
Santana - #6, 774

2005 - had to use 100 IP

Halladay - #2, 771
Johan - # 67, 740

So it's pretty obvious by now that Doc has consistently faced tougher opponents. Even if that's not park adjusted, you said yourself the difference is 1.25%, which isn't enough to swing this in favour of Santana. Yeah, you could use ERA by team to say Doc faced "weaker teams". But I'm gonna stick with quality of hitters faced to show that Halladay has clearly faced tougher opponents on average than anybody in the game over the past 3-4 years.

The fact that you're using wins is laughable. The Twins have been a better team than the Jays over that same time period (05-07, 258 to 250 wins in favour of the Twins), not surprising than Johan would have more wins.

So long story short - Halladay's faced the toughest group of hitters over the past 3-4 years, and still has some of the best #'s in the game. Really hard to argue against him being the better pitcher.

Kyle916
01-02-2009, 07:32 AM
If Lincecum can put up a similar year to last, with his meager offense, i'd take him over Halladay.

You cant go wrong with either one.

nygiants242
01-02-2009, 07:34 AM
^ :nod: Both are studs.

07MVPPatBurrell
01-02-2009, 01:11 PM
2008 - These are #'s for pitchers with 200+IP.

#1 = Doc, 766 OPS
#18 = Santana, 737

2007 - same deal, 200+ IP

#1 - Doc 775 OPS
#9 - Santana, 759

2006 - same deal, 200 + IP

Doc - #19, 762
Santana - #6, 774

2005 - had to use 100 IP

Halladay - #2, 771
Johan - # 67, 740

So it's pretty obvious by now that Doc has consistently faced tougher opponents.

great post.

JAYZFAN9
01-02-2009, 01:35 PM
First of all - you're using 2 outs RISP BA/OBP/SLG against as a criteria? That's hilarious. Could you have picked a more obscure stat that has absolutely no bearing on a pitchers effectiveness or controllable factors?

I call your obscure stat of 2 out with RISP and raise you pitches per inning. Santana threw 15.4 and Doc averaged 14.5 - so Doc was more efficient.

Pretty clear edge for Doc, wouldn't you say :rolleyes:?

By the way, you did that whole list to come up with the quality of opponents faced, and you didn't even bother to show the quality of the opponents faced? You know there's a stat that tells you that... and it's called Pitcher's quality of batters faced. I'll even show you the results of the batters faced, as well as where they rank among other pitchers who threw the innings minimum...

2008 - These are #'s for pitchers with 200+IP.

#1 = Doc, 766 OPS
#18 = Santana, 737

2007 - same deal, 200+ IP

#1 - Doc 775 OPS
#9 - Santana, 759

2006 - same deal, 200 + IP

Doc - #19, 762
Santana - #6, 774

2005 - had to use 100 IP

Halladay - #2, 771
Johan - # 67, 740

So it's pretty obvious by now that Doc has consistently faced tougher opponents. Even if that's not park adjusted, you said yourself the difference is 1.25%, which isn't enough to swing this in favour of Santana. Yeah, you could use ERA by team to say Doc faced "weaker teams". But I'm gonna stick with quality of hitters faced to show that Halladay has clearly faced tougher opponents on average than anybody in the game over the past 3-4 years.

The fact that you're using wins is laughable. The Twins have been a better team than the Jays over that same time period (05-07, 258 to 250 wins in favour of the Twins), not surprising than Johan would have more wins.

So long story short - Halladay's faced the toughest group of hitters over the past 3-4 years, and still has some of the best #'s in the game. Really hard to argue against him being the better pitcher.

Adda boy twitch :clap:

Doc 4 Prime Minister

MJ-BULLS
01-20-2009, 01:25 PM
lincecum