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lionsfn
12-24-2008, 10:50 PM
With 10 being the highest and 1 the lowest.

Lets Rate our staff :clap:

I rate it a 6

mark1125
12-25-2008, 12:24 AM
Until they do something to address that mess of a pen, I say 4.

Bondomania
12-25-2008, 01:25 AM
starters if everyone is healthy and bounces back - 8
starters if people don't bounce back - 4

Bullpen currently - 3
Bullpen if Perry or Fien proove that they can make an impact - 6 or 7

Epic89
12-26-2008, 07:41 PM
Rotation- 5
Bullpen- 2

It is one of the worst pitching staffs in baseball.

jjrsle
12-26-2008, 11:22 PM
Starters = 7 (average) We don't have a dominate #1. Also, who will be our #5? Minor, Willis, or Robertson?

PEN = 4 (poor) We don't have a proven closer or consistency.

OVERALL= 5.5 (below average) Until someone steps up as a stud #1 and we address the bullpen with a consistent, strike throwing closer we will rate just below MLB average. Probably somewhere in the range of the 14th-16th rated pitching staff in MLB if we stay healthy.

Luckly, I give our offense an 8.5 (above average). Only weakness is overall speed.

mark1125
12-27-2008, 01:47 AM
Starters = 7 (average) We don't have a dominate #1. Also, who will be our #5? Minor, Willis, or Robertson?

PEN = 4 (poor) We don't have a proven closer or consistency.

OVERALL= 5.5 (below average) Until someone steps up as a stud #1 and we address the bullpen with a consistent, strike throwing closer we will rate just below MLB average. Probably somewhere in the range of the 14th-16th rated pitching staff in MLB if we stay healthy.

Luckly, I give our offense an 8.5 (above average). Only weakness is overall speed.


And bunting, moving runners along, making consistant contact.

I think our rotation is adequate if we get a couple good bullpen arms to come in to close it out. There is no on in the pen that I have any confidence in. Cruz, Saito, Beimel are waiting.

tigernag
12-27-2008, 06:06 PM
I rate the pen -3
The starters -5
Overall team-5

Epic89
12-28-2008, 04:32 AM
[/B]


And bunting, moving runners along, making consistant contact.

I think our rotation is adequate if we get a couple good bullpen arms to come in to close it out. There is no on in the pen that I have any confidence in. Cruz, Saito, Beimel are waiting.

Word. Unfortunately, Dumbrowski isn't in our boat; that stupid sonuva*****

JackB
12-28-2008, 11:16 AM
I have to agree with Epic. Too many question marks with our starters and the bullpen is terrible. I might even rate the starters 1-2 points lower based on last year. Really nothing solid to build on. Gallaraga has only one year under his belt.No solid history. We have too many IFs. IFs can be said about everybodys starters.Sure If our starters live up to their potential we have a good year. But what IF the other teams starters live up to their potential. We still lose.We have a better season then last year but Several teams have better 1-3 starters then ours.We also can't go as deep into games because our bullpen is bad. And no closer.No need to break down the bullpen. As of right now we are in trouble.We need serious help.Ownership may have put a freeze on spending but unless they open the wallets a little wider not only do we continue to hold up the bottom of the division but they'll be looking at lots of empty seats at Comercia.

Sheffies Chef
12-28-2008, 12:04 PM
wow epic-----

aren't you just a bright ray of sunshine...

jcphik
12-28-2008, 02:01 PM
Starting-5
Pen-2

JackB
12-28-2008, 02:54 PM
My remarks were in regards to Epics first post. Not his last. The ratings post.

Bondomania
12-28-2008, 07:30 PM
I think the baseball season for every team is all about "ifs".. I think our pitching staff is full of huge potential, and i think our number 5 starter is a lot better than a lot of other teams number 5 starter in Jackson. Overall, i think our starting pitching staff is pretty good, the only problem is that it is overloaded and i don't even know how we are going to fit Willis into the rotation if he comes back and can throw strikes.. I like Miner as a starter and think he has big upside, i actually like him more than i like Galarraga, and would prefer that we traded Galarraga prior to the season, because we could sell high on him, because we don't know if he can repeat his previous season. Miner has more pitches in his arsenal, and given a full season of starting, i think Miner could put up similar numbers to Galarraga

Epic89
12-29-2008, 12:00 AM
I have to agree with Epic. Too many question marks with our starters and the bullpen is terrible. I might even rate the starters 1-2 points lower based on last year. Really nothing solid to build on. Gallaraga has only one year under his belt.No solid history. We have too many IFs. IFs can be said about everybodys starters.Sure If our starters live up to their potential we have a good year. But what IF the other teams starters live up to their potential. We still lose.We have a better season then last year but Several teams have better 1-3 starters then ours.We also can't go as deep into games because our bullpen is bad. And no closer.No need to break down the bullpen. As of right now we are in trouble.We need serious help.Ownership may have put a freeze on spending but unless they open the wallets a little wider not only do we continue to hold up the bottom of the division but they'll be looking at lots of empty seats at Comercia.

I agree with every word.

And Sheff, "I don't scratch my back unless it itches, I don't dance unless I hear any music." You think I want to be this pessimistic? No; I wish I could feel good about the Tigers; but if Gerald Laird, Edwin Jackson, Adam Everett, Matt Treanor, and sights set on DERRICK ****ING TURNBOW as our closer, I can't be anything more than wholly negative. The Detroit Tigers have the worst bullpen in baseball and they're not even trying to improve upon it; they're banking on prospects turning out and average players somehow becoming good. That's not a safe bet.

This team plays a terrible brand of baseball; they're slow, they're boring, they don't pitch well, they surrender leads, they don't steal, they're nauseatingly inconsistent, they have no pride. I could go on and on, I didn't even bring up that their GM is an idiot and their Skipper is delusional.

And Bondo, "ifs" may be part of the games, but the "ifs" with the Tigers are countless.

I just don't think they're anywhere close to being competitive, and I will continue to be incredibly critical of them until they get back in touch with reality, open the wallets, and actually take calculated measures towards improving this team rather than banking on comeback seasons and miraculous revelations.

Tragedy
12-29-2008, 10:08 AM
It's hard, really. It's still early. There are a ton of question marks. The Tigers pitching should not get a high rating. However, they've got some pitchers that CAN do well, and have in the past.

It's all a matter of if these guys can bounce back. If it's the same as last year, it's another year of mediocrity. If they can pick themselves up and be what we know they're capable of being, then we've got something here.

sportwiz628
12-29-2008, 03:20 PM
The rotation is a question mark but Ill have to go with 6 but we need Verlander to have a big bounce back yr

Bondomania
12-29-2008, 07:54 PM
I am predicting bounce back years for Verlander and Bonderman, i expect Jackson to take another step forward in his development, and i think if the offseason reports are accurate on Dontrell, i expect him to comeback and be the old Dontrell, (incase you haven't heard, he is on a strict diet and workout routine and has already lost some weight). Then I think Galarraga could return and if he can come close to recreating his last season then we could have a great season. The key will be avoiding the middle relief pitchers and trying to get the ball into the hands of guys like Dolsi, Fien, Zumaya (if healthy), Rodney (if mentally in the game), and even Miner could find himself in a closer role.. has the stuff, might not have the right mindset, but he definitly has the stuff to close

JackB
12-29-2008, 08:36 PM
Man I hope you are right Bondo.

One Nut Kruk
12-30-2008, 04:51 AM
Speaking of delusuional skippers, Marinelli is now available.

The rotation stinks. The bullpen stinks. Simple as that.

Verlander will probably bounce back but he's the only thing close to a stud we have. Hearing about Bonderman's potential is about as appealing as hearing about Edwin Jackson's WHIP. Another flame thrower without a clue where it's going....he's more than likely going to get lit up as a Tiger. Does Dombrowski even look at stats besides W-L record and pitch speed? The f'n guy gave up 77 walks and 199 hits in 180+ IP. He'll fit right in. Galarraga is a question mark. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he regresses. Nobody else is even worth mentioning.

Like Epic said, this team is too slow, boring, unfundementally sound, etc, etc. They will have to rely on the bats coming alive a heck of a lot more consistently than last year if they wanna even dream about a playoff berth.

Hermie13
12-30-2008, 01:57 PM
I do like the Jackson addition for you guys.....but I'm not so sure he'll do much better (if at all) than last year. He's about to his limit most likely. I can see Verlander bouncing back....but I'm not, nor ever was, sold on Bonderman. I think he's a decent pitcher, but as your guys' #3 he's pretty weak. And Galarraga needs to prove he's not a 1yr wonder....he could very well take a step back in 2009, which you guys can't afford. And his minor league numbers don't really show he's as good as he was last year.....though that obviously doesn't mean that's the case.....


You rotation is likely a 5 right now....and your pen is a 3....

Offense is an 8 or 9.....but defense is suspect at the cOF spots....

Bondomania
12-30-2008, 06:49 PM
Jackson is no where close to his potential.. he didn't start pitching until he was in the Dodgers minor league system, so he is still learning to pitch. I think people will be in for a pleasant surprise this year..

One Nut Kruk
12-31-2008, 04:10 PM
Jackson is no where close to his potential.. he didn't start pitching until he was in the Dodgers minor league system, so he is still learning to pitch. I think people will be in for a pleasant surprise this year..

I am through with waiting for guys to fulfill their potential. If he surprises me, great....but I'm not banking on it.

Bondomania
01-02-2009, 12:40 AM
That's what happens in baseball with prospects.. it is a long waiting game, and either guys fulfill their potential or they don't. Jackson had a solid year, and for a stretch during the season he was one of the hottest pitchers in baseball. And if you look at his stats, if it weren't for a rough june and september, he was a sub 4 ERA pitcher. Walks may always be an issue with him, due to how hard he throws. I don't think he has a ton of movement to his pitches, so he is forced to throw harded. If he can some life on his fastball, he might be able to dial it down a bit, but until he learns to do that, he is going to have to continue to throw it that hard. Also, he has to learn to trust his offspeed pitches, which are very good pitches, then he will really start to live up to that potential

RicoSteel
01-02-2009, 09:03 AM
3 at best. I really don't understand what the front office is doing. Fuentes signed for a reasonable amount at 2 years, the Rangers just signed Turnbow, what in the blue hell are we waiting for? If they think Rodney and Zumaya will regain form and hold down the pen, then it is going to be one long year. I will have to find another spring/summer hobby, because I refuse to watch that bum Rodney blow any more 9th inning leads. :mad:

RicoSteel
01-02-2009, 09:16 AM
Speaking of delusuional skippers, Marinelli is now available.

The rotation stinks. The bullpen stinks. Simple as that.

Verlander will probably bounce back but he's the only thing close to a stud we have. Hearing about Bonderman's potential is about as appealing as hearing about Edwin Jackson's WHIP. Another flame thrower without a clue where it's going....he's more than likely going to get lit up as a Tiger. Does Dombrowski even look at stats besides W-L record and pitch speed? The f'n guy gave up 77 walks and 199 hits in 180+ IP. He'll fit right in. Galarraga is a question mark. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he regresses. Nobody else is even worth mentioning.

Like Epic said, this team is too slow, boring, unfundementally sound, etc, etc. They will have to rely on the bats coming alive a heck of a lot more consistently than last year if they wanna even dream about a playoff berth.


The most intelligent post I've read in this forum in a long time. DD is no where near the genius everyone makes him out to be. Jackson was not that good of an addition, he is all over the damn place. Not addressing the pen is driving me crazy.

Bondomania
01-02-2009, 10:57 AM
DD wasn't going to sign a closer to what essentially could be a 3 year deal. Fuentes is inconsistant and has lost his closer job at times. Turnbow cannot find the strike zone. The closer options really weren't that great after Wood and K-Rod, not to mention we just drafted a bunch of guys that can close. Ryan Perry might actually be that guy, he has the "stuff" to close right now at the major league level, with a big time fastball and a devastating slide and a changeup which he has shown good command of at times. However, i think the organization still might want to see if he can make the switch to being a starter. But, we have closer prospects that will be ready by no later than 2010. This year is probably going to be a restructuring year, which will allow some bad contracts to come off the books, and that in turn will allow us to active once again in the FA market.

One Nut Kruk
01-02-2009, 03:07 PM
That's what happens in baseball with prospects.. it is a long waiting game, and either guys fulfill their potential or they don't. Jackson had a solid year, and for a stretch during the season he was one of the hottest pitchers in baseball. And if you look at his stats, if it weren't for a rough june and september, he was a sub 4 ERA pitcher. Walks may always be an issue with him, due to how hard he throws. I don't think he has a ton of movement to his pitches, so he is forced to throw harded. If he can some life on his fastball, he might be able to dial it down a bit, but until he learns to do that, he is going to have to continue to throw it that hard. Also, he has to learn to trust his offspeed pitches, which are very good pitches, then he will really start to live up to that potential

I understand that but DD does nothing but hopes for flamethrowers to pan out. In last years draft, and correct me if I'm wrong because I'm going off of memory here, we drafted 6 pitchers out of the first 7 selections and EVERY ONE OF THEM had the same scouting report.....mid-high 90's fastball as a strength and control as a weakness. Just doesn't make much sense to me. A few here and there, sure, but how about we get some guys that can hit the strike zone....oh yeah, we trade them guys for bums like Renteria.

Bondomania
01-03-2009, 11:53 AM
That was the report of some of them. Some of them were coming off injuries and some had future concerns of injury due to dips in velocity. Perry is pretty good, and has solid command, he just needs to refine it. In college you can blow hitters away just throwing down the middle, and up in the strike zone, if you throw hard enough. Perry needs to work on working lower in the zone and working on hitting the edges of the plate. Satterwhite i believe wasn't viewed as a starter in the big leagues, so his stock dropped a bit. I think Green was the only one that i heard had command issues.

DD was attemting to address one particular area early in the draft, and DD likes straightup flame throwers coming out of his pen. I agree that it is nice to have a few command guys, that throw a variety of pitches and paint the corners and don't necessarily rely on mid-90's heat. Jair had major injury concerns, and last year was really the first year he was able to stay healthy for an entire season, at any level. Granted i feel that we overpaid for Renteria, and i think we could have floated that same package out to a lot of teams and probably got a young SS that could have been here for a few years.

I guess i am just trying to be positive and have some hope going into this season. I know that this year is most likely a re-tooling year, and 2010 is most likely the first year where we are able to legitimatly compete, but i am hoping that the stars align for us and we are able to get hot at some point and maybe get that wild card spot. I think that if Bonderman comes back and is healthy, Verlander goes back to his old self, and Jackson continues to develop then we could have a good season, because with those three alone, you are looking at 3 15 game winners... potentially. However, if those things don't pan out, then we are looking at a very long season, and we will have to hope the guys like Porcello, and Crosby are ready by 2010.

MichiganSports
01-07-2009, 11:43 AM
Look our Defense was Horrible last year, and when your defense is horrible (especially up the Middle) your pitching staff will suffer. Verlander will recover Big time this year and have All Star type stats. 1 through 5 we should have the Best staff in the AL Central. The only question is who will be manning the 5th spot. Best case senario is D-Train bounces back and eventually mans the number 4 and Edwin Jackson moves back to 5. I think by the middle of the Season our staff will look like this....

1-Verlander
2-Gallaraga
3-Bonderman
4-Willis or Robertson
5-Jackson

Miner stays in Pen

theoldgoalie
01-07-2009, 06:58 PM
Bottom Line.....Starters= 7
Bullpen= 5

I think our bullpen will be better this year than last no doubt about it. the moves will be mad and a fire will be lit under their collective butts! But mark my words, they will redeem themselves.

One Nut Kruk
01-07-2009, 07:42 PM
Look our Defense was Horrible last year, and when your defense is horrible (especially up the Middle) your pitching staff will suffer. Verlander will recover Big time this year and have All Star type stats. 1 through 5 we should have the Best staff in the AL Central. The only question is who will be manning the 5th spot. Best case senario is D-Train bounces back and eventually mans the number 4 and Edwin Jackson moves back to 5. I think by the middle of the Season our staff will look like this....

1-Verlander
2-Gallaraga
3-Bonderman
4-Willis or Robertson
5-Jackson

Miner stays in Pen

Lay off Grandpa's cough medicine dude. It has the potential to be alright but a lot of things have to go right for it to be the best in the division. Too many question marks.

1) Will Verlander bounce back? He should, that's about the safest bet.
2) Will Galarraga continue to impress or will he suffer the sophmore jinx?
3) How will Bonderman come back off of a major injury?
4) Both of these lefties suck, no if's and's or but's about it
5) How will Jackson fare coming to a last place team from a World Series runner up? Will he be able to find the strike zone?

RicoSteel
01-08-2009, 01:43 PM
More homers than objective fans on this forum.

Bondomania
01-08-2009, 02:11 PM
I think people are just trying to stay optimistic.. this is the team we are rolling out there this season.. some people have turned on our pitching staff.. however they have HUGE potential, whether or not that potential will be achieved will be seen over this season. Verlander, Bonderman and Jackson all have nasty stuff.. Galarraga just gets it done.. and we are hoping that Willis returns to form.. if he doesn't, then we have a suitable replacement in Zach Miner who has consistantly shown that he can be a reliable 3-4-5 type pitcher. The Bullpen is a nightmare, however, if the starters can go 6 or 7 innings on most nights, then i think we can piece together a BP and do a closer by committee type thing.. it is obvious DD doesn't want to spend a ton on his BP, due to the recent drafting of so many guys that profile as late inning relievers. Watch for a ton of guys we recently drafted to fly through the farm system, and i wouldn't be surprised if Satterwhite, Green, Perry, Jacobson, or Weinhardt come up at some point in the season if the bullpen falters.. all of whom have electric struff and have the potential to be setup guys or closers

RicoSteel
01-09-2009, 09:06 AM
Action and signings all over the bigs, but not in Detroit. We are content with our Adam "rag arm" Everett signing. :mad:

stanpapi
01-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Lay off Grandpa's cough medicine dude. It has the potential to be alright but a lot of things have to go right for it to be the best in the division. Too many question marks.

1) Will Verlander bounce back? He should, that's about the safest bet.
2) Will Galarraga continue to impress or will he suffer the sophmore jinx?
3) How will Bonderman come back off of a major injury?
4) Both of these lefties suck, no if's and's or but's about it
5) How will Jackson fare coming to a last place team from a World Series runner up? Will he be able to find the strike zone?

Every one of 'em. Like Nut, I half expect Verlander to be fine. But the rest are real question marks. Will we get the answers we want on all 5? I seriously doubt it.

JackB
01-09-2009, 08:56 PM
I think people are just trying to stay optimistic.. this is the team we are rolling out there this season.. some people have turned on our pitching staff.. however they have HUGE potential, whether or not that potential will be achieved will be seen over this season. Verlander, Bonderman and Jackson all have nasty stuff.. Galarraga just gets it done.. and we are hoping that Willis returns to form.. if he doesn't, then we have a suitable replacement in Zach Miner who has consistantly shown that he can be a reliable 3-4-5 type pitcher. The Bullpen is a nightmare, however, if the starters can go 6 or 7 innings on most nights, then i think we can piece together a BP and do a closer by committee type thing.. it is obvious DD doesn't want to spend a ton on his BP, due to the recent drafting of so many guys that profile as late inning relievers. Watch for a ton of guys we recently drafted to fly through the farm system, and i wouldn't be surprised if Satterwhite, Green, Perry, Jacobson, or Weinhardt come up at some point in the season if the bullpen falters.. all of whom have electric struff and have the potential to be setup guys or closers

I know many of you have never heard of Paul "Bear " Bryant and many of you have. Well this is what he said about potential .
"Potential means you haven't done **** yet " And I agree. What happens between the lines is what counts.

stanpapi
01-12-2009, 12:25 AM
Thank you for clearing that up, JackB. That's a very helpful comment.

Epic89
01-12-2009, 02:10 AM
More homers than objective fans on this forum.

That represents the Tigers' fan base.

CC Sabathia isn't the second best pitcher in baseball to them, he's just a dude who's snacked on one too many big macs. The Yankees aren't the greatest organization in sports history, they're snobs who "buy their world series"

It's all Tigers, all the time. Believe in the team all the time, no matter how bad they are. That's the way this fanbase is; I don't like it.

babygranderson
01-12-2009, 07:03 AM
There's not one team in baseball who doesn't have at least two, and most likely at least three huge question marks about their rotation. Since the Yankees are the standard, lets look at them (although IMO the Rays have the most stable 1-5 in mlb)

1. CC - will the money, pressure and the lights crush him like it did Randy Johnson? Will this be the year all those innings finally catch up to him?

2. AJ Burnett - Is he a perpetual 18 game winner now or the new Carl Pavano?

3. Wang - See Bonderman (although his injury is NOT his arm)

4. Chamberlain - Can/will he transcend fully into the rotation? For a full season? Will he get drunk and crash his car before or during the World Series everyone already has the Yankees playing in?

5. Kennedy/Hughes - Future Jake Peavy's or Todd Van Poppel's??? (Insert potential means you haven't done **** yet, quote here)

I'd say the Yankees have at least 80% of the rotational uncertainties that the Tigers do heading into the season. Again, the Yankees are the example used here only. Objectively, think about other elite teams we are jealous of (at least rotation wise). Cubs...several question marks. Red Sox...same. Indians have huge SP uncertainties in my opinion.

I find thinking about the Tigers offseason goes best with a nice, tall, cool glass of Kool-Aid, myself. AAAAAAAHHHHH...refreshing!!

Sam_Quentin
01-17-2009, 12:26 PM
How can anyone not give the pen a 1?

Same group of bums...and you cant rate them higher just because of guys like Perry and Darrow...who you have no idea how they will pitch in the bigs. Going with the knowledge we know as fact, the pen is TERRIBLE.

One Nut Kruk
01-17-2009, 04:59 PM
There's not one team in baseball who doesn't have at least two, and most likely at least three huge question marks about their rotation. Since the Yankees are the standard, lets look at them (although IMO the Rays have the most stable 1-5 in mlb)

1. CC - will the money, pressure and the lights crush him like it did Randy Johnson? Will this be the year all those innings finally catch up to him?

2. AJ Burnett - Is he a perpetual 18 game winner now or the new Carl Pavano?

3. Wang - See Bonderman (although his injury is NOT his arm)

4. Chamberlain - Can/will he transcend fully into the rotation? For a full season? Will he get drunk and crash his car before or during the World Series everyone already has the Yankees playing in?

5. Kennedy/Hughes - Future Jake Peavy's or Todd Van Poppel's??? (Insert potential means you haven't done **** yet, quote here)

I'd say the Yankees have at least 80% of the rotational uncertainties that the Tigers do heading into the season. Again, the Yankees are the example used here only. Objectively, think about other elite teams we are jealous of (at least rotation wise). Cubs...several question marks. Red Sox...same. Indians have huge SP uncertainties in my opinion.

I find thinking about the Tigers offseason goes best with a nice, tall, cool glass of Kool-Aid, myself. AAAAAAAHHHHH...refreshing!!

Sorry dude but this is ridiculous. Pretty sure every GM in the league would rather have the Yankees question marks then the Tigers. Why?

1) CC Sabathia is an established superstar

2) AJ Burnett is an established above average pitcher with pretty good career numbers across the board whereas Pavano has been pretty garbage his entire career except for one lucky season.

3) Sure Wang is somewhat of a question mark but he has actually proved he is good when healthy, whereas Bonderman has proved nothing but he's the most inconsistent pitcher of our generation.

4) you're kidding right? I think I'll take Joba and his 100 mph and knee buckling curve in that 4 spot over Nate/Willis.

5) that's about the only true question mark they have....but it's still one of the best prospects in the league.

Epic89
01-17-2009, 05:43 PM
There's not one team in baseball who doesn't have at least two, and most likely at least three huge question marks about their rotation. Since the Yankees are the standard, lets look at them (although IMO the Rays have the most stable 1-5 in mlb)

1. CC - will the money, pressure and the lights crush him like it did Randy Johnson? Will this be the year all those innings finally catch up to him?

2. AJ Burnett - Is he a perpetual 18 game winner now or the new Carl Pavano?

3. Wang - See Bonderman (although his injury is NOT his arm)

4. Chamberlain - Can/will he transcend fully into the rotation? For a full season? Will he get drunk and crash his car before or during the World Series everyone already has the Yankees playing in?

5. Kennedy/Hughes - Future Jake Peavy's or Todd Van Poppel's??? (Insert potential means you haven't done **** yet, quote here)

I'd say the Yankees have at least 80% of the rotational uncertainties that the Tigers do heading into the season. Again, the Yankees are the example used here only. Objectively, think about other elite teams we are jealous of (at least rotation wise). Cubs...several question marks. Red Sox...same. Indians have huge SP uncertainties in my opinion.

I find thinking about the Tigers offseason goes best with a nice, tall, cool glass of Kool-Aid, myself. AAAAAAAHHHHH...refreshing!!

This is terrible. I'm sick and tired of these people who liken the '09 Yankees to the '08 Tigers; the 2009 Yankees are going to be very very good people. Get over it. Sabathia is the second best pitcher in the game, Burnett is electric when healthy, Wang is GREAT as a third starter, and they've got youth at the back-end of the rotation to provide the energy all contenders need.

Verlander is a good pitcher and will probably win more games than he loses this coming year. But the rest of the rotation just sucks. Bonderman is a failure, it's time to give up on him. Galarraga could be a fluke; I mean seriously, the guy was at the end of the line in the most pitching deprived organization in the league. Jackson has a lifetime ERA of 5+ - enough said. Conclude that Nate Robertson, who I'm still convinced is the worst pitcher in baseball, is the favorite for rotation spot #5 right now, and this team's pitching just sucks. Shame on DD for not valuing it, or just doing a ****y job of it.

babygranderson
01-17-2009, 09:45 PM
Sorry dude but this is ridiculous. Pretty sure every GM in the league would rather have the Yankees question marks then the Tigers. Why?

1) CC Sabathia is an established superstar

2) AJ Burnett is an established above average pitcher with pretty good career numbers across the board whereas Pavano has been pretty garbage his entire career except for one lucky season.

3) Sure Wang is somewhat of a question mark but he has actually proved he is good when healthy, whereas Bonderman has proved nothing but he's the most inconsistent pitcher of our generation.

4) you're kidding right? I think I'll take Joba and his 100 mph and knee buckling curve in that 4 spot over Nate/Willis.

5) that's about the only true question mark they have....but it's still one of the best prospects in the league.

Krukster,

I like your posts because they cut to the chase and you never sit the fence. When did I directly state the Tiger's starters were better than the Yankees? Why would I? Because I don't think its true. My post used the Yankees as an example that every team, even the freakin' YANKEES have question marks heading into this season. It's hard for me to even take your labeling of my post as "ridiculous" seriously. But since you want to break it down 1-5, here's another perspective for the vaunted Yankees staff:

1. CC is a superstar. Did he ever have a mediocre season? Try 04, 05, and the first half of 08 on for size. Speaking of size, he may show up to camp this, or any year of his new fat contract with man boobs the size of David Wells' belly, thus rendering him ineffective. Justin had a horrible 08. Name one GM who wouldn't want him right now. Since you've got Burnett penciled in as NY's #2, do you think Cashman would trade Verlander straight up for Burnett?

2. Burnett has electric stuff. MLB players don't get lucky, ever. Even Pavano. I don't question Burnett's ability or if he is better or worse than a lucky Pavano. My connection points to both players ridiculously unlucky bout with injuries. Burnett's history shows he could end up on the shelf very easily.

3. I personally think Wang will win 18-20 this year. He's good. His injury is his foot, so he should be as good as new. He's consistent. You're right, Bondo is inconsistent. He's never done anything, though? Come on. The last two seasons he was healthy he won 14 games and struck out over 200 batters once. How is it Burnett gets labeled as this ace (not necessarily by you - but by many others), when he has a legit history of injuries and is 32 years old, whereas Bonderman is 26, been injured once and has put up career numbers on par with Burnett's but only far more consistently.

4. Again, only a ******* would even try to compare the merits of Joba vs. that of the Robertson/Willis juggernaut. It's not Joba vs. the Tigers' #4, its about an objective observation of him as a SP. We agree he probably will be great over a full season as a SP...probably for years to come. Has he done it yet? No.

5. Hughes' star is falling in mlb scouting circles. Cincy wouldn't trade Dunn for him last July even though they knew they'd lose him in a few months. Evidently they thought Micah Owings is better? For all the venom cast at Jackson, he does have well above average stuff, is young with an upside, and actually has produced a 14 game winning season. Again, I am not purposely comparing our 5 vs. their 5. My point is that both of those NY cats haven't done squat yet, one is starting to lose the expectations of such, and the other is a question mark until proven otherwise.

Is it really ridiculous to wonder, speculate CC faltering given the money, heat of NY, all those innings, etc.? Is it really ridiculous to question if or even when Burnett goes down again? Is it ridiculous to wonder if their #5's will ever develop?

We could run down the Sox, Cubs, Rays, etc. the same way. EVERY team has questions marks of health, consistency, age, etc. for at least 3/5 of their rotation.

babygranderson
01-17-2009, 09:47 PM
This is terrible. I'm sick and tired of these people who liken the '09 Yankees to the '08 Tigers; the 2009 Yankees are going to be very very good people. Get over it. Sabathia is the second best pitcher in the game, Burnett is electric when healthy, Wang is GREAT as a third starter, and they've got youth at the back-end of the rotation to provide the energy all contenders need.

Verlander is a good pitcher and will probably win more games than he loses this coming year. But the rest of the rotation just sucks. Bonderman is a failure, it's time to give up on him. Galarraga could be a fluke; I mean seriously, the guy was at the end of the line in the most pitching deprived organization in the league. Jackson has a lifetime ERA of 5+ - enough said. Conclude that Nate Robertson, who I'm still convinced is the worst pitcher in baseball, is the favorite for rotation spot #5 right now, and this team's pitching just sucks. Shame on DD for not valuing it, or just doing a ****y job of it.

When did I ever say the 09 Yankees are the 08 Tigers? I must've missed that one myself.

JackB
01-17-2009, 10:04 PM
Sorry dude but this is ridiculous. Pretty sure every GM in the league would rather have the Yankees question marks then the Tigers. Why?

1) CC Sabathia is an established superstar

2) AJ Burnett is an established above average pitcher with pretty good career numbers across the board whereas Pavano has been pretty garbage his entire career except for one lucky season.

3) Sure Wang is somewhat of a question mark but he has actually proved he is good when healthy, whereas Bonderman has proved nothing but he's the most inconsistent pitcher of our generation.

4) you're kidding right? I think I'll take Joba and his 100 mph and knee buckling curve in that 4 spot over Nate/Willis.

5) that's about the only true question mark they have....but it's still one of the best prospects in the league.


I totally agree. I like the Yankees chances

One Nut Kruk
01-19-2009, 02:30 AM
Krukster,

I like your posts because they cut to the chase and you never sit the fence. When did I directly state the Tiger's starters were better than the Yankees? Why would I? Because I don't think its true. My post used the Yankees as an example that every team, even the freakin' YANKEES have question marks heading into this season. It's hard for me to even take your labeling of my post as "ridiculous" seriously. But since you want to break it down 1-5, here's another perspective for the vaunted Yankees staff:

1. CC is a superstar. Did he ever have a mediocre season? Try 04, 05, and the first half of 08 on for size. Speaking of size, he may show up to camp this, or any year of his new fat contract with man boobs the size of David Wells' belly, thus rendering him ineffective. Justin had a horrible 08. Name one GM who wouldn't want him right now. Since you've got Burnett penciled in as NY's #2, do you think Cashman would trade Verlander straight up for Burnett?

2. Burnett has electric stuff. MLB players don't get lucky, ever. Even Pavano. I don't question Burnett's ability or if he is better or worse than a lucky Pavano. My connection points to both players ridiculously unlucky bout with injuries. Burnett's history shows he could end up on the shelf very easily.

3. I personally think Wang will win 18-20 this year. He's good. His injury is his foot, so he should be as good as new. He's consistent. You're right, Bondo is inconsistent. He's never done anything, though? Come on. The last two seasons he was healthy he won 14 games and struck out over 200 batters once. How is it Burnett gets labeled as this ace (not necessarily by you - but by many others), when he has a legit history of injuries and is 32 years old, whereas Bonderman is 26, been injured once and has put up career numbers on par with Burnett's but only far more consistently.

4. Again, only a ******* would even try to compare the merits of Joba vs. that of the Robertson/Willis juggernaut. It's not Joba vs. the Tigers' #4, its about an objective observation of him as a SP. We agree he probably will be great over a full season as a SP...probably for years to come. Has he done it yet? No.

5. Hughes' star is falling in mlb scouting circles. Cincy wouldn't trade Dunn for him last July even though they knew they'd lose him in a few months. Evidently they thought Micah Owings is better? For all the venom cast at Jackson, he does have well above average stuff, is young with an upside, and actually has produced a 14 game winning season. Again, I am not purposely comparing our 5 vs. their 5. My point is that both of those NY cats haven't done squat yet, one is starting to lose the expectations of such, and the other is a question mark until proven otherwise.

Is it really ridiculous to wonder, speculate CC faltering given the money, heat of NY, all those innings, etc.? Is it really ridiculous to question if or even when Burnett goes down again? Is it ridiculous to wonder if their #5's will ever develop?

We could run down the Sox, Cubs, Rays, etc. the same way. EVERY team has questions marks of health, consistency, age, etc. for at least 3/5 of their rotation.

I'm going to cut to the chase.

Sabathia's "mediocre" seasons (and the half a season you counted as a mediocre season) are still pretty damn good.

Pavano had one good year. His other years are brutal.

Bonderman's career numbers are not even close to Burnett's.

Yes I understand that every team has question marks. The point is, ours are likely to be problems.

babygranderson
01-19-2009, 06:30 AM
I'm going to cut to the chase.

Sabathia's "mediocre" seasons (and the half a season you counted as a mediocre season) are still pretty damn good.

Pavano had one good year. His other years are brutal.

Bonderman's career numbers are not even close to Burnett's.

Yes I understand that every team has question marks. The point is, ours are likely to be problems.
Thanks for not sitting on the fence, too.

Miami_Megatron
01-19-2009, 01:58 PM
id say a 6.3

scottie
01-19-2009, 05:32 PM
I like this team a lot! We need to get help to the mid-relief and closer department, but I am more inclined to call last year an anomaly then to rate this staff under a 7. Verlander is very good, bonderman is good, and the others round out nicely. I am looking for this team to have an awsome year in the pitching department. Before anyone starts with the "anomaly" (sp?) thing, remember the tigers went from in the doghouse (worst record in baseball) to the playoffs, it could happpen again.

JMDTM
01-19-2009, 06:53 PM
ya know im with Scottie. Some of our key guys had off season last year, and this could and should be a bounce back year. i hope with Bonderman back and Verlander hopefully ready for a new start, we can start new. plus last season helped us discover Gallaraga. We got that new SP this year who is decent. And then a few choices for the 5 spot. The pen is not good obviously but with even 1 signing it would look a lot better

One Nut Kruk
01-19-2009, 09:38 PM
You guys are way too optimistic. I'll be happier than hell if they prove me wrong and I'll still be watching every game but I'll be damn surprised if the pitching on the whole doesn't hold us back. Our offense is going to have to be a lot better than last year.

Lionsforlife
01-20-2009, 10:55 AM
What our staff needs is consistency. At the beginning of the season they got 0 run support from what was supposed to be the best offense in baseball. Granted they eventually put up big numbers, but were still inconsistent. Hopefully injuries to our position players won't hurt us as much this year.

The other consistency problem were there roles. They were asked to step up into different roles and most were coming off injuries.

Consistency would help in fielding as well. Fielding was atrocious.

So hopefully, our team finds consistency which will greatly help our bullpen without adding anyone (although I am hoping for lyon)

Epic89
01-20-2009, 10:52 PM
You guys are way too optimistic. I'll be happier than hell if they prove me wrong and I'll still be watching every game but I'll be damn surprised if the pitching on the whole doesn't hold us back. Our offense is going to have to be a lot better than last year.

You and me are in the exact same boat man. How people can be optimistic after last year flabbergasts me, makes me wonder if they were watching the same team I was.

Verlander is a good pitcher and will win more games than he loses next year, I'm thinking about 14 or 15 wins. Aside from that, the rotation sucks. Galarraga was good last year, but he was at the end of the line within the most pitching deprived organization in baseball before coming here; sophomore slump? At this point, I'm done waiting on Bonderman; I've accepted he'll never be anything better than a mid-rotation starter. Jackson has a career ERA of 5+, 'nough said. And as Miner needs to be in the pen, that leaves DesigNate and The D-Railed Train to battle for spot 5; GREEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAT.

And oh yeah, the pen is still TERRIBLE.

I'm done pulling my heartbroken, bitter act from a few months ago; that was uncalled for, and I never should've put so much stock in the team in the first place; I apologize for my rants. That said, I still don't believe in them and expect marginal improvement at best (77-80 wins?)

Yes, We Deliver
01-21-2009, 12:48 PM
My Grades

Rotation: C+
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Too much potential to get a C and too unpredictable to be above B-. I personally think it'll be somewhere in between. My guess is that the 5th starter role will go to a lefty. Dontrelle?

Bullpen: C
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Detroit's bullpen is a question mark, but I am convinced that there is too many young pitchers that are dieing to make it to the big leagues for it to fail. When Detroit's bullpen was at their best (2006) they didn't have ANY established relievers, outside Todd Jones, who himself was a question mark. Guys like Zumaya, Grilli, Rodney, Tata, Ledezma, Seay, etc, were nobodies (or close to it) before 2006.

So I don't think a big name closer is needed for the bullpen to succeed. I think last year, the bullpen sunk down with the rest of the team. This year could be suprisingly different, especially with a new pitching coach who comes from Minnesota, where they grow pitchers on trees.