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View Full Version : What are the Tigers, Dombrowski doing?



philab
12-09-2008, 07:53 PM
Last year, in the wake of the Cabrera/Willis megatrade, I made the argument that Detroit had mortgaged its future for a 1-2 year shot at it all. Now, the Tigers look like a mess.


In acquiring Cabrera and Willis last year, the Tigers sent off FOUR pitchers, including prized prospect Andrew Miller.
Prior to that deal, Jair Jurrjens, who had had an impressive showing in limited time in 2007, was sent to Atlanta for Edgar Renteria, who is no longer with the team.

Keep in mind that these trades were made with glaring holes in the 'pen and a shaky rotation with virtually no minor league depth.

Now, they trade two more pitchers, one of which (Melo) has an extraordinary upside, despite being just a teenager. In return? A 29 year-old catcher with a .255 lifetime BA and 25 HRs.

With Verlander coming off an awful season, Willis' ERA north of 9.00, Bonderman's inability to put together a good season, injury concerns with Zumaya and Rodney, and a staff that ranked 12th in the AL in team ERA, I must ask: What are the Tigers and Dombrowski doing?

This time last year Dombrowski was a top 3 GM by many estimations. Now the Tigers have major budget concerns, a terrible staff, and a depleted minor league system.


I'm not trying to pick on the Tigers here -- just wondering if anyone else agrees with me. Am I crazy here? Is there something that I'm missing? Any Tigers fans want to offer a defense of some of these moves?

In my opinion, the last year+ of dealings have left the Tigers in a hole that they won't likely come out of for several years (if they finally started making good moves).

Tragedy
12-09-2008, 07:54 PM
God, the team is seriously a mess. Not much more can be said than that. They need a big splash SP, or somehow get a great trade.

MooseWithFleas
12-09-2008, 07:57 PM
Dumping salary.

philab
12-09-2008, 08:00 PM
Dumping salary.

By trading two prospects for a guy that will likely make $2-4MM this year?

C1Bman88
12-09-2008, 08:08 PM
Adam Everett was a nice move. The others, not so much.

IRUAM #21
12-09-2008, 08:22 PM
Yea they really messed up this team if they dont at least make the playoffs this year they need to rebuild

penuch
12-09-2008, 09:01 PM
Dumping salary.

Haha complete opposite, they are giving up prospect and their minor league system for way more expensive players. I mean Cabrera, Willis, and Renteria cost them more in one year than all those prospects would have cost them for multiple years.

yaowowrocket11
12-09-2008, 09:48 PM
I honestly have no idea what the Tigers are thinking. Maybe they will do something decent for once?

whitesoxfan83
12-09-2008, 09:49 PM
what a fall from, they are going to be the best offense in baseball history! the tigers are proof that without a bullpen you cant win ****. as a white sox fan, i dont know what they are doing, but whatever it is....

keep doing it....

Sport
12-09-2008, 10:20 PM
Yeah as a Twins backer, by all means Detroit keep messing around.

But in all seriousness they do have some legit talent that they could win with.

But alot of guys on that '06 WS team were having career years and in their "last go around"

Craig Monroe, Ivan Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Rogers, and Im not giving up on Nate Roberston or Jeremy Bonderman, but they have been struggling lately too.

So,really its not all managments fault.

With Cabrera on the roster, they have promise. He is only 24. They just need to dump some contracts.

philab
12-09-2008, 11:37 PM
Yeah as a Twins backer, by all means Detroit keep messing around.

But in all seriousness they do have some legit talent that they could win with.

But alot of guys on that '06 WS team were having career years and in their "last go around"

Craig Monroe, Ivan Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Kenny Rogers, and Im not giving up on Nate Roberston or Jeremy Bonderman, but they have been struggling lately too.

So,really its not all managments fault.

With Cabrera on the roster, they have promise. He is only 24. They just need to dump some contracts.


I never really mentioned anything about their offense.

It's been their pitching that's held them back these last two years.

You would think a team in such a situation would make moves to secure some pitching help, but they keep trading away pitchers.

Only Rogers from their staff has gotten old. So yes, the failings of the pitching staff are Dombrowski's fault.

And if you're hanging on to Nate Robertson, good luck to you. The guy had an ERA over 6.00 last year. Even in his best year, he was an adequate #5 at best.

Bonderman has yet put up more than two good months in a row his entire season.

Verlander should bounce back some, but still . . . They'll be left with a solid #2, a #5, and a bunch of scrubs to fill a rotation. And the bullpen is just as big of a mess!

Sport
12-09-2008, 11:57 PM
I never really mentioned anything about their offense.

It's been their pitching that's held them back these last two years.

You would think a team in such a situation would make moves to secure some pitching help, but they keep trading away pitchers.

Only Rogers from their staff has gotten old. So yes, the failings of the pitching staff are Dombrowski's fault.

And if you're hanging on to Nate Robertson, good luck to you. The guy had an ERA over 6.00 last year. Even in his best year, he was an adequate #5 at best.

Bonderman has yet put up more than two good months in a row his entire season.

Verlander should bounce back some, but still . . . They'll be left with a solid #2, a #5, and a bunch of scrubs to fill a rotation. And the bullpen is just as big of a mess!

I could care less about the Tigers, so Im not "hanging" onto Nate Robertson.

Im just simply saying, out of all the MLB teams that are struggling, The Tigers, IMO are the best situation. They have some players, they just need t tweak some things a bit.

drewstantontime
12-10-2008, 12:32 AM
ya i dont know i like the move, cause Laird is a great defensive catcher and is one of the better catches at working with the pitchers. And I read in the paper that the tigers believe than can help him hit for a higher average, because i think he had a batting average of like .288 away from their stadium and like a .305 at Comerica.
Plus I bet if the Tigers found the right team, trading away either Willis or Robertson for prospects would be a start when it comes to rebuilding our farm system. The same goes for Sheffield as well, trade him away for prospects, toss Thames in the DH role cause the guy can hit long balls all day long, free us some payroll and that would let Joyce get more at bats playing in LF. He would be a lef handed hitter that the tigers could need. He reminds me alot of Jason Bay and if Joyce is anything like Jason Bay than I am more than happy with that move.
As far as Everett, Im not sold till I see him play. I would have rather had Nick Punto for his defense or Jack Wilson, but getting Wilson would be more prospects gone and that wouldnt be wise but he could have been what we needed but either way, Dombrowski isnt dumb, he only made 1 bad move that still got us Cabrera dont forget, so if they liked what they saw in Everett, well I'll still trust him.

Moneytime27
12-10-2008, 03:02 AM
this is my first time posting , long time Tiger fan. people never seem to be happy we trade prospects for veterans nobodys happy, trade veterans for prospects nobodys happy. a prospect is just that, Jair Jurrjens would have been traded regardless wether it for Jack Wilson or Edgar Renteria, cant live off the past of John Smoltz and Doyle Alexander which everybody does. No Risk No Reward. Dontrelle Willis was horrible for us but what did any of these prospects do for the Marlins last year ? Andrew Miller had a plus 6 ERA, I would trade all those guys for Miguel Cabrera any day. what ever happened to Humberto Sanchez ? we got Sheffield but the Yankees got absolutely nothing out of it, we will trade Magglio if the Tigers are out of it this season and if its time to rebuild so be it but you cant keep clinging to prospects in hopes of winning championships the Tigers failed but hey at least they arent the Lions

Lionsforlife
12-10-2008, 08:30 AM
I think DD's mistakes were last year and now he's trying to make up for them. 2006 surprised everyone and then in 2007 we fell back a bit, so DD tried to make a huge splash knowing time was short.

I mean, even after getting rid of all of those prospects last year, who wouldn't have wanted the Tigers lineup. On paper, the worst starter was Jaques Jones who was still a 270 lifetime hitter. And the pitching had been decent the last two years.

Last year was an anomaly. Everyone seemed to fall from grace. The pitching, the fielding, hell even our hitting. We can't peg lack of performance on DD.

So this year he's not letting himself get burnt by big names and will try to go the cheaper route. There's also the hope that last year was just that, an anomaly, and that everyone will bounce back a little. Cabrera will probably start off hot this year, Verlander should have a better year and Bonderman should be returning from injury.

You'll see the bullpen change drastically in the next couple of days (I hope). But I believe they will wait on starters next year, which I agree with. Give them one more chance.

I like the moves so far as they are improving one problem from last year: defense. We were one of the worst and now look a lot better defensively. I have faith that they will be a lot better this year.

hoog
12-10-2008, 08:33 AM
Two things:
1. If you want to be one of the "big boys" in the MLB then act like it. Last year they entered into the big salary teams now, so far, this year they look like a scared low budget team. They HAVE to spend money to fix that awful bullpen and they NEED to address this shotty starting pitching also. By getting a new pitching coach they have started to address some issues but again, you have to spend the money to get the bullpen fixed. Maybe they will but so far they look more like bargain hunters than an elite MLB team that wants and will do anything to win. Last year Iillitch was ready to do that but this year he's shown to be a penny pincher whose team will suffer in the late innings again.

2. Pitching wins championships!! We've put money in offense now it's time to put the money where it will really pay off....IN PITCHING. We will not win without a quality closer and there seem to be enough of them out there to pick one and go get him. IMO, Frankie Rodriguez went cheap so the others shouldn't be to awful to sign. While their at it they should also sign another bullpen arm and starter.

It may seem like were asking for a lot as fans but the Tigers gave us the impression last year that they are going to run with the big dogs and now their going to skimp? No way. Why would you not want to add to the championship type team you've started building. Heck, your a few players away from being there. One big time bullpen arm an average innings eater starter, and an above average 7th/8th inning guy in the pen. Why not do it?

stanpapi
12-10-2008, 10:31 AM
Unfortunately, the guy who started this post has it right. DD did a nice job rebuilding the system, then blew it all last year. He turned a tight team of hungry players into a millionaires club. Bringing in Laird was a solid move, but the Tigers are already hamstrung for years to come on huge contracts signed to players who can't deliver the goods anymore. Complicating matters is the fact that these players were signed in good economic times and now have to be paid during a recession.

After giving away all those players, we're still stuck Inge at 3rd again. Willis I hold out no hope for. Can't believe he wouldn't play winter ball. Sheff, maybe he will rebound, but that will likely be too little too late. Cabrera can't play 3rd and that was part of the point in bringing him here -- to replace Inge. Now you have nowhere to put the guys who should be playing first (Thames, Larrish, Guillen). Now Leyland is in a pout. And it goes on.

However you want to spin this, DD built a slow, poor-fielding old team for a huge ballpark that should be fielded by a fast team that can play D. You can't hide Guillen in left anymore than you can hide Ordonez in right. Inge can't hit. Neither can Everett, and I still don't see why he was brought in when we already have Santiago (who actually showed serious signs of improving as a hitter). Mark my words. This is not going to work. It's still a patchwork team, and not in a good way. This team will be hamstrung for a good, long time.

drewstantontime
12-10-2008, 12:18 PM
ya i dont know Cabrera played alright defensively at first, just about as good as anyone else, polanco is a damn good defensive 2nd base and inge we all know is a great defensive 3rd base SS Everett can at least be an improvement defensively than last years Renteria and I agree that Santiago would be more ideal compared the Everett but i trust DD enough to put a little faith in Everett, I dont know i think if they can fix our bullpen at least than i dont see a need for starting pitching....yet. so i see hope

dddtfan
12-10-2008, 02:06 PM
hindsight is 20/20 my friends, seems to me, last winter, we thought we were destined to be World Series champions, and when that didn't work out, now we are the worst team ever. We did our best with what we had at the time and took our shot at it. Oh well, and back to the drawing board. All isn't lost and everybody probably won't be as injured and have off years as did last year, add in a couple of more pieces in the bullpen which was the worst of our weaknesses last year, along with some consistent and improved defense, and we'll be fine. Rest easy, it isn't quite the acopalypse yet.

hoog
12-10-2008, 02:09 PM
Unfortunately, the guy who started this post has it right. DD did a nice job rebuilding the system, then blew it all last year. He turned a tight team of hungry players into a millionaires club. Bringing in Laird was a solid move, but the Tigers are already hamstrung for years to come on huge contracts signed to players who can't deliver the goods anymore. Complicating matters is the fact that these players were signed in good economic times and now have to be paid during a recession.

After giving away all those players, we're still stuck Inge at 3rd again. Willis I hold out no hope for. Can't believe he wouldn't play winter ball. Sheff, maybe he will rebound, but that will likely be too little too late. Cabrera can't play 3rd and that was part of the point in bringing him here -- to replace Inge. Now you have nowhere to put the guys who should be playing first (Thames, Larrish, Guillen). Now Leyland is in a pout. And it goes on.

However you want to spin this, DD built a slow, poor-fielding old team for a huge ballpark that should be fielded by a fast team that can play D. You can't hide Guillen in left anymore than you can hide Ordonez in right. Inge can't hit. Neither can Everett, and I still don't see why he was brought in when we already have Santiago (who actually showed serious signs of improving as a hitter). Mark my words. This is not going to work. It's still a patchwork team, and not in a good way. This team will be hamstrung for a good, long time.

Well said Papi! Unless they get a top flight closer, a better set-up guy, and another innings eater pitcher then they might as well blow this up and start over. You can NOT patch work this team. Your bottom three Inge, Laird, and Santiago/Everett stink at the plate and you might as well throw Sheff in there as well. That's four bad at bats every time threw the lineup and how long can Magg's and Guillen hang on? So virtually you have Grandy, Polonco, and Cabrerra who can be relied upon. So our suspect pitching can not account for that. As for pitching? I can not rely on anyone on our current roster. So, either spend the necessary money or blow it up do not stand pat and wait like the Piston's have done.

drewstantontime
12-10-2008, 02:28 PM
they said the exact same thing about the white sox after they won the world series a few years ago and then came back with a few bad seasons, and look at how they played last year the tigers are going to be fine, they just need a little upgrade and a little faith in their young guys, porcello is close to making it to the majors and we will be fine

philab
12-10-2008, 04:36 PM
A few things:

Like one poster said, they have improved their defense, which was a good move.

The Laird trade wasn't all that bad in-and-of-itself, but why trade two more pitchers? Couldn't they work out some kind of trade for Laird or a similar catcher that involved something a position player or two? Who knows if the two traded will amount to anything, but at least they have a chance. With minor league pitching, I'm basically of the opinion that more depth is always better. We see guys come out of nowhere every year -- especially as relievers -- so hang on to some of these guys. Prospects are never a given, but the more quality prospects you have, the better the chance that some can contribute.

One poster said all they have to do is trade Sheffield and Willis and some of the other big contracts. Well, where are these trades? First, Willis is about as untradeable as they come. Any trade that actually could be pulled off would have the Tigers paying most of that salary anyway. Second, Sheffield isn't very tradeable either. Teams don't want 40+ year-old headcases with huge contracts. Trading them would be great for the Tigers, but I don't see it happening.

The Tigers' offense is still good -- certainly not the problem. With Verlander, Bonderman, and maybe Robertson or Miner, they have 2-3 guys that should actually be starting in the majors. If Zumaya and Rodney come back healthy and Jones can stick around, the bullpen might be a bit better. With a few decent signings, I could see the Tigers putting together a semi-competitive team. To be honest, though, this team looks like a mess to me and is going to take some work to get back to the playoffs.

Epic89
12-10-2008, 08:50 PM
Unfortunately, the guy who started this post has it right. DD did a nice job rebuilding the system, then blew it all last year. He turned a tight team of hungry players into a millionaires club. Bringing in Laird was a solid move, but the Tigers are already hamstrung for years to come on huge contracts signed to players who can't deliver the goods anymore. Complicating matters is the fact that these players were signed in good economic times and now have to be paid during a recession.

After giving away all those players, we're still stuck Inge at 3rd again. Willis I hold out no hope for. Can't believe he wouldn't play winter ball. Sheff, maybe he will rebound, but that will likely be too little too late. Cabrera can't play 3rd and that was part of the point in bringing him here -- to replace Inge. Now you have nowhere to put the guys who should be playing first (Thames, Larrish, Guillen). Now Leyland is in a pout. And it goes on.

However you want to spin this, DD built a slow, poor-fielding old team for a huge ballpark that should be fielded by a fast team that can play D. You can't hide Guillen in left anymore than you can hide Ordonez in right. Inge can't hit. Neither can Everett, and I still don't see why he was brought in when we already have Santiago (who actually showed serious signs of improving as a hitter). Mark my words. This is not going to work. It's still a patchwork team, and not in a good way. This team will be hamstrung for a good, long time.

I never thought I'd see this day, but I am in total agreement with you; I am exactly this pessimistic. As far as I'm concerned, Dave Dombrowski has lost his job; the team is as deep in the sewer now as it was when he took over.

philab
12-11-2008, 12:29 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8...-meetings-blog

Tigers acquire Edwin Jackson.

I don't know enough about Joyce (other than that he's a top prospect) to really evaluate this trade. In theory, though, this more like the type of trade the Tigers should be making. Sounds like giving up Joyce might hurt down the road, but pitching is a must and the Tigers were lacking.

Lionsforlife
12-11-2008, 09:32 AM
I guess this is why I didn't understand all of the pessimists on this thread. The offseason is still young. DD barely talked about upgrading the rotation, but then he makes this trade happen. I'm impressed. I think you will see 2 to 3 more signings for the bullpen (Beimeil, Cruz/Lyon, Smoltz).

I would be okay with Smoltz as closer for a year or two. I think that they are happy with their closing prospects for the future closer in a couple of years (Perry, et al).

I don't think losing Joyce will hurt us that much. He was already battling for PT and we have alot of outfield prospects that are supposed to be even better. Joyce wasn't even a top prospect until he surprised people last year.

I say wait for this offseason to shake out before you completely give up on DD.

theoldgoalie
12-11-2008, 06:55 PM
Last year was a completely different tune and now, the Tigers are a debacle?!
Screw that noise! Look at what happened with the White Sox. I mean sometimes, you need to take a step backwards in order to move forward. It is all about chemistry. Cabrera is now in his second year with us, Inge is back at 3rd, giving us solid defense, we will have a defensive shortstop for once and Guillen will be playing in a position that will keep him healthy and in the line up more.

As far as pitching goes, we lost Bonderman, which was a HUGE blow, Gallaraga played good enough to make people forget about that dude we sent to Atlanta (see I forgot his name already), and we put way too much reliance on an older, injured Kenny Rogers. We have young, strong arms now and starting pitching is concerned, we are loaded! We have our starting rotation, PLUS some extras! Willis, Miner, Porcello, Lambert, etc.

Our starting lineup is still going to be one of the best in the league and our bullpen, well.....I see things shaping up. Miner, will go back to the pen, Willis I am guesssing may work out of the pen, Beimiel is still out there and if Texas is serious about wanting Sheffield, well, I would be more than willing to try and pry a guy like Benoit from them. I also have no doubt that Smoltz would be willing to sign with the Tigers at a better price than other teams (he eluded to that with ESPN last season).

We are no worse off than we were at this time last year when everyone was singing accolades. In fact, I think we are now better this year than last. A solid, young catcher, a strong, YOUNG pitching staff and and nice, experienced, defensive line up. porcello just might get some work out of the bullpen this year, Lambert has shown some promise and now I see we have picked up this Kyle Bloom, who I have heard a few things about. Don't worry about it guys.....We will be fine, we will be just fine.

Bondomania
12-11-2008, 07:45 PM
alright, well the tigers needed a veteren catcher to help Dusty Ryan progress. This year pretty much is a re-tooling year and a year in which we wait for some of the younger talent we have in the minors to develop. Everett was a real short-term solution so that either one of our young stud SS's develop, and they could contribute this year. We also have a lot of young starting pitchers that will be making an impact in 2010, with guys like Porcello, Crosby, Kibler and Robles all really developing nicely. Help will be on the way and the rebuilding process won't take long. I really think that DD realizes that this year could be a lost year, and he is just trying to put together a team that can stay semi-competitive and hang around long enough to sell tickets..

The problem has stemmed from over-paying players when they were in their "peak" years and haven't been able to replicate those seasons. Guys like Guillen, Sheffield, Inge, Robertson and Willis are all examples of this. Also, some of our starters have been injured and whatnot, and that will hurt any team when you lose your #2 starter early in the season, shortly after trading away most of your pitching depth. That left us with few arms that could actually come up and help out when needed. This has almost set us back a bit, plus trading away young talent has really depleted our farm system. However, that being set, we have a TON of young raw talent that will fly through the system.

With this last trade to get Jackson, we traded away from a position of strength within the organization with the emergence of outfields Wilkin Ramirez and Casper Wells, Joyce was expendable, and a lot of organizations wanted him. I think that Joyce is a special player and he will have a solid career.. but we need additional depth within our SP's, and Joyce was only 50/50 to make the big league roster at the beginning of the season, with Guillen moved to the outfield. I don't really like Guillen as our LF.. but that is the direction the organization is going.. Guillen will most likely move to DH in 2010 after sheffield's contract expires.. We needed to get a C and SS, and we accomplished doing both without breaking the bank, and now we are left with roughly 15 to 18 mill. to spend on areas of need.. but we could end up passing on a closer because we drafted potential closers in the first 4 rounds of the last draft.. and we have two closer prospects that could step in with Dolsi and Fien, Fien dominated in AFL, AAA and AA this past year, closing at every stop

Bondomania
12-11-2008, 07:50 PM
Porcello will NOT pitch out of the BP this year.. he is a starter and thats the way the organization sees him.. he still needs to develop his offspeed pitches and he will be a starter for the tigers or he will stay in AA.. they aren't going to screw with his development.. not when we drafted so many BP arms this past year

JMDTM
12-11-2008, 09:06 PM
yup agreed^. im just glad i didnt have to type that out. i hope these moves work out. honestly, none of them have made me upset so far. all are guys that can contribute to this team in a good way.

babygranderson
12-11-2008, 11:52 PM
I like DD a lot. He brought us back from the grave as a franchise. Here's my take on some of some of his criticisims outlined in this thread:

1. Depleting our farm system (especially pitching)? How?
Andrew Miller? No thank you. DD sold high on him.
Humberto Sanchez? Better check the milk cartons if
you want an update on him. Jair Jurgens? Okay, this
one is legit. Renteria shafted us, not DD. If DD gets
ripped for shipping away Jair, why doesn't everyone
sing his praises for stealing essentially the same
pitcher in Armando Galarraga? Gorkys
Hernandez? I only heard/read about how good this
guy is supposed to be. I could be dead wrong, but
I am not that upset he's gone. Scout.com rates him
at 2.0 stars as a prospect. Michael Holliman is a 2.0. at
a position we actually need, and nobody would cry if
he were traded for a guy (on paper) is coming off a .332
season, a multiple all-star @ 32 years old, and a history
of being a winner and hitting in the clutch. Cameron
Maybin? Well, he could very well be the next Griffey.
Or with his build and long swing, he could end up being
the baseball version of Charles Rogers. Slender, injury
prone, tons of hype and very little production. Time will
tell, but we did score Miguel Cabrera, with a proven
Big League MVP-ish track record and only 3 years older.
I make that trade 7 days a week.

2. He did just score a young, power arm, 14 game winner
for a serviceable, potentially flash in the pan, LH stick.
I'd make that trade 7 days a week, too. Not bad for a
guy who voids our big league roster & entire system of
quality young arms.

3. Somebody drafted Porcello, Fien, etc...

4. Next to starting pitching, up the middle defense is the
most important facet of championship caliber clubs.
Laird, Polanco, Everett, Granderson...name a mlb club
who is better than that with the leather.

5. I disagree with whoever posted that DD "hamstrung"
us financially for years. Click this
http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2006/12/tigers-
payroll-info/ The 2010 payroll is down to 95 mill.

6. I like Illitch as an owner. Given this, HOW DARE HE
begin to skrimp this year or any future season in light of
these two facts: 1) He bought the team for $92 mill
in 1992. Forbes listed the Tig's worth $407 in 2008.
I'd say he's got return for his "risky investment." 2)
The fans packed Copa ALL YEAR in 2008. I am
surprised that in late September, sellouts were the
norm. Remember Jimmy getting all teary-eyed? Again
big Mike didn't lose a damn dime last year regardless
if we went 0-162...he better not go cheap. That's not
DD's call though. We could afford to increase payroll
now, and still take comfort in knowing that relief is
on the way to the tune of 43 million in twelve months.

7. DD isn't perfect. He missed on Renteria, pretty bad.
He paid Inge too much. He paid Nate too much.
Dontrelle, too, although he's a 26 year old cy young
winning world champ who throws in the 90's. He
pulled the trigger on getting the cancer known as
Sheffield on our roster. (Although I think Leyland is
to blame for much of what is truly wrong with this club,
not limited WANTING Sheffield, allowing Inge to cry,
diva culture to permeate the clubhouse, pampering
the vets who are loyal to him, sending guys like
Clevlen, Thomas, Hessman, etc. up & down to Toledo
for no damn reason)

Sorry for the mini-book. I see things a little differently than many of the posts on this thread. "I am Dave Dombrowski and I approve this advertisement..."

dillon4412
12-12-2008, 12:33 AM
Depleted minor league system?I think you should go back and look that up.The minors have alot of guys one or two years away from the big club.Lots of pitchers Figaro,Nickerson,Porcello and Iorg.To name a few.That's why we need players to fill the gaps.The Tigers are ok.Cabrera,Granderson,Ordonez and Polanco.The pitching will bonce back.

Lionsforlife
12-12-2008, 08:32 AM
I don't blame the teams failures last year on DD at all. On paper, everyone feared the tigers. This feared offense didn't click off the bat and somehow got shut out several times. How is that on DD. The players weren't performing.

Our pitching looked good on paper as well but Rodney and Zoom got hurt AGAIN, Bonderman also was lost for the season right off the bat. Granted, keeping Jurrjens would have been nice, but he wouldn't have gotten us to the playoffs alone.

Did he possibly put too much faith into Rodney and Zoom as future closers, yes, but alot of us had that optimism early (at least with Zumaya, I never liked Rodney).

Last years failures were on performance and managing. DD is part of the problem but a minor part compared to the others.

This year I see him realizing the mistakes he did make (no defense) and already fixing that.

Now we have to see how he shores up the pen.

Last year we were excited about alot of the moves and were disappointed. Hopefully this year we may not be overwhelmed with the moves, but nicely surprised by the outcome.

theoldgoalie
12-12-2008, 04:30 PM
As a Tiger fan. You're right Bondo, Porcello won't pitch out of the BP, but my point is, he could. The Twins develop their pitchers out of the pen all the time and it just might be something we adopt. I doubt it, but we might. My point is, our rebuilding program started last year when we picked up Cabrera. He is the cornerstone offensively and Verlander is the Cornerstone for our pitching. I don't like the idea of Guillen playing left either...It'll wear him down. He'll be DH soon enough as I don't think Sheffield will be with us too much longer. That gives Thomas another chance to shine and platoon in left and center. We're still pretty young and when guys like Iorg, Worth, Larish and Holliman develop, our infield will be much deeper. our pitching staff is VERY deep now, especially with Jackson and I truly believe, a few of these young guys that showed promise last year (Bonine, Dolsi, Lambert) will help with bullpen depth. And I do believe we will end up with Smoltz, so he will anchor and teach some of bullpen guys a few things.

Amen to what you said babygranderson! He knows what he's talking about. We have a great team right now and pretty soon it's going to be a very deep team! I'm psyched. If our pitcher pitch 6-7 innings, we've got nothing to worry about. This is a competitive division and I think we are deeper than most other teams in the central.

Bondomania
12-12-2008, 04:42 PM
exactly... everyone is so doom and gloom.. 2009 might be lost year.. i think we will stick around enough to make it interesting. i think 2010 we are going to have a TON of young talent come up and contribute. Casper Wells and Wilkin Ramirez will battle it out for LF in 2010.. Clete Thomas will probably be a number 4 outfielder, which isn't bad, because he plays awesome defense and can pinch run. We have a lot of young RAW talent.. however, most of them project to be able to contribute at the major league level..

stanpapi
12-12-2008, 05:11 PM
It's doom and gloom for two reasons. One, the trades and signings since Sheffield have been bad. And two -- and this is where I disagree big time with the goalie -- they built a slow, big-bat team in an NL ballpark. The failure to be successful with that mix is something someone even dumb and stupid as myself could identify. I mean, nobody expected it to fail this miserably, but I wasn't the only one questioning this. As for what's up in 2009, they're putting a patchwork on what didn't work last year. You've still got all the same problems. Bad fielding at 2 corner outfield positions. A 3B that will K 150 times, not nearly enough bullpen, a questionable DH, players out of position, etc. More or less, that's what we had last year. Why would it work now? Like, if this was a chocolate bar, would you buy it? Don't anyone get on about being a team guy. It's just this isn't a good Tigers team. As for the guys in the farm system, I wouldn't depend on a TON of guys coming up to contribute. There are some good prospects, no question, but I'd much rather see them playing kids now than this patchwork team of grossly overpaid guys in a bad economy. I mean, do you want to pay to see this?

babygranderson
12-12-2008, 06:38 PM
"...Amen to what you said babygranderson! He knows what he's talking about..."

Holy Schnikees! I just soiled myself a little bit! Nobody else on the planet thinks I am smart at all...

I love this board, dammit.

(joking aside, thanks goalie)

theoldgoalie
12-13-2008, 04:12 PM
I mean, do you want to pay to see this?

Yea, I would.They are a solid bunch of guys. Sure some are getting older, but I still like what I see. We have a line up that can and will produce runs and gap the ball which will give guys plenty of time to run. Small ball is a great way to play. Look at the Twins, they've mastered it. But when you have a line up like we have where you top 4-5 batters are considered to be among the best hitters in baseball, guys like; Granderson, Polanco, Cabrera, Ordonez and Guillen, then I think you have something good. Our starting pitching is more than capable and we have a lot of young pitchers that can start filling in the gaps in the bullpen. I look at the Indians, White Sox, Red Sox and Yankees and say to myself.....We can compete with any one of those teams on any given day. Mets and Phillies included. What else do you want man? I know Inge is a lousy hitter, but he is one of the best third basemen in all of the game, it would be nice if he had all the tools, but in all honesty, if he did, we would be in a world of hurt, because we would have gotten rid of him last year BEFORE we found out that Cabrera was too friggin fat to play third. We will be just fine. to me out biggest problem is obviously our bullpen, and that wouldn't be half the problem it is if our starters could get us into the 7th inning!!!

Epic89
12-14-2008, 04:31 AM
Yea, I would.They are a solid bunch of guys. Sure some are getting older, but I still like what I see. We have a line up that can and will produce runs and gap the ball which will give guys plenty of time to run. Small ball is a great way to play. Look at the Twins, they've mastered it. But when you have a line up like we have where you top 4-5 batters are considered to be among the best hitters in baseball, guys like; Granderson, Polanco, Cabrera, Ordonez and Guillen, then I think you have something good. Our starting pitching is more than capable and we have a lot of young pitchers that can start filling in the gaps in the bullpen. I look at the Indians, White Sox, Red Sox and Yankees and say to myself.....We can compete with any one of those teams on any given day. Mets and Phillies included. What else do you want man? I know Inge is a lousy hitter, but he is one of the best third basemen in all of the game, it would be nice if he had all the tools, but in all honesty, if he did, we would be in a world of hurt, because we would have gotten rid of him last year BEFORE we found out that Cabrera was too friggin fat to play third. We will be just fine. to me out biggest problem is obviously our bullpen, and that wouldn't be half the problem it is if our starters could get us into the 7th inning!!!

It's one of the worst overall pitching staffs in baseball. I wouldn't trust any of these guys to halt a losing skid or as my starter in game 7 of the world series.

stanpapi
12-14-2008, 12:52 PM
Goalie,
The problem with Inge is less about his batting average and more about unproductive at-bats. I can stomach a guy hitting, let's say, .240 if he's having productive ABs, putting the ball in play, advancing the runner, making a pitcher throw a lot of pitches, etc. But you don't get that with Inge. He just Ks.

As for the rest of it, I wouldn't say the starting pitches blows, but your assessment is very optimistic. There's still no pen to speak of. Then there's guys out of position over this Cabrerra deal (Thames, Guillen, Larish). I'm sorry, but you've got a ton of issues before you start. Honestly, Goalie, I don't see how you get excited about this.

mark1125
12-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Our rotation is not the worst, but everyone in the rotation has an "IF" attached.

1) Verlander...IF he can return to the ace in waiting form of 2 years ago?
2) Bonderman...IF he recover from a season lost to injury?
IF he can get past his first inning issues.
3) Galaraga...IF he can prove that last year wasn't a fluke.
4) Willis...IF he can harness his control and become a solid #4 starter.
5) Robertson/Jackson/Miner all have "IF" attched as well.

If at least 3 of those "if's" are satisfied, we will have a solid rotation . Any less than that and we will have issues.

My opinion is that #1 and #2 are the most realistic. #3 is possible, but I see him taking a small step back (although still being effective). I have my doubts about #4, but supposedly, he is working on his conditioning and maybe a new pitching coach will help. As for #5, I am assuming Miner is headed back to the pen as will Nate if not unloaded somehwere. I haven't seen enough of Jackson to formulate much of an opinion other than his control is a bit off.

scottie
12-14-2008, 09:20 PM
It's one of the worst overall pitching staffs in baseball. I wouldn't trust any of these guys to halt a losing skid or as my starter in game 7 of the world series.

Hey these guys had a bad year, not couple of years, not many years, not a lot of years, but 1 bad year so far. Don't be a sour puss. We lost our #2-3 pitcher in Bonderman to injury and a solid #4-5 starter we signed for a good chunk of money played like he just got a good chunk of money and was more interested in spending it then winning. I believe 2009 we'll all see a turn around by Verlander, Robertson, Willis, and Bonderman. Galaraga might get knocked around a little more though. Miner is servicable on this team as well. Sometimes players and teams have bad years!

stanpapi
12-14-2008, 10:03 PM
Ahem -- and this is in no way focused at the pitching staff -- but did you say bad year? A bad year would have been finishing 3rd or 4th.

mark1125
12-14-2008, 10:12 PM
and to add to what Papi said, last place is beyone bad with that payroll.

I don't have a lot of confidence that they will turn it around completely anytime soon. Will they do a bit better this year. I think so. Should they be considered a legit threat. Heck no.

What I have said before still stands true. We do not have enough players who can run, bunt, move runners along. Too many black holes defensively. At least they are tring to improve that, but Guillen in LF and Ordonez in right is not a good prospect. If anything happens to Grandy, it will get ugly fast out there.

What I am saying is that the team is not designed for the park they inhabit.

On a positive note, I think Bonderman will be a welcome return. Willis CAN'T be any worse can he?. I have to think Verlander has to bounce back.

Pick up a couple bullpen arms (Juan Cruz, Beimel, and/or Saito) and they should be able to sniff .500. Maybe better.

Bondomania
12-15-2008, 11:42 AM
eh, look at the yankees though.. 200 million dollar payroll and they finished 3rd.. not saying it is alright, however, i think that we had some injuries and that really hurt us.. also the pitcher we thought we were getting and could get us 13 to 14 wins completely lost his control. I think Verlander put to much pressure on himself to carry the staff and that affected him. I can't believe i am going to say this, but i actually agree with Scottie... wow.. that felt weird.. Todd Jones who was somewhat reliable got hit harder than he has in a while.. so many things worked against the tigers and injuries really hurt them, and the lack of depth in the farm system hurt us. But good news is some of those guys that were to young to contribute last year have another year of development and our depth within our farm system is almost back to where it was prior to some of those trades..

JMDTM
12-15-2008, 05:09 PM
i think we need to pickup one more legit SP in Sheets. He would help us out so much. it couldnt hurt

dddtfan
12-15-2008, 05:27 PM
What I think is funny is that everyone projects Jackson in the number 4 or 5 slot on our team...its funny because I think he is younger than any pitcher that we have forecasted to go into the rotation next year, AND, I'm not certain about this and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, I think his numbers were better than anybody we trotted out there. Sure he is a question mark to, but not as big of one as some of our other question marks.

babygranderson
12-15-2008, 08:44 PM
i think we need to pickup one more legit SP in Sheets. He would help us out so much. it couldnt hurt

Not agreeing or disagreeing...just using your observation as an excuse to repost something I wrote a week or so ago...I really thought it would stir the conversation one way or the other...here's throwing it at the wall a second time wondering if it will stick:

Here's the guy I want us to get for our 5th starter:

These are his numbers:

27 years old

27 games started, 146 IP, record: 12-7 (could've easily won 3 more games) 4.35 ERA, 1.35 WHIP. 14/27 quality starts (within an out of 5 more - or 19/27 starts)

He will cost us 400K this year.

It's Zach Miner. He's horrible out of the pen. The above numbers are from his 06 starts and his 08 starts. Not too shabby.

JMDTM
12-15-2008, 10:31 PM
yeah read that. he can stay. i just dont think he is worth sticking with for to long. but i guess we will have to see

theoldgoalie
12-16-2008, 11:41 AM
They are as solid of a team as any other team in the majors. What is better than in previous years, is that we are deeper with some of the position players we have in the minors and they will be able to contribute this year. How much remains to be seen, but I think we'll see a lot more of Hollimon, Worth, Larish and to a lesser degree Iorg. As for the pitching staff that will be on the mound each and every start.....I disagree with anyone who thinks it blows. It's a solid staff. Mark my words, they will have a rebound season in 2009. They have just a couple more things to do before spring training.....Get rid of Sheffield for a legitimate bullpen pitcher (even if they have to eat some of the contract) and SIGN SMOLTZIE!!!! He is not the be all God all, but he will probably come her cheaper than most and he will be an excellent stop gap until we are in a position to pick up a long term closer. Other than that, we are set!

stanpapi
12-17-2008, 01:55 AM
I agree with you on Smotlz, Goalie. And not that you're suggesting as much, I don't think the staff blows. I think Verlander will be fine, but after that they're all question marks, including Gallaraga. Heck, until he proves better, Verlander is a question mark, too. And Sheffield, who would take his contract? He's been hurt and mostly bad for a season and a half. And the team is terribly hamstrung in terms of an awful imbalance of salary and depth at the corners. Overall, let's hope they do better, but we're still a slow, poor-fielding team that Ks too much, doesn't steal bases, and can't (for the most part) lay down a clean bunt, let alone execute a hit-and-run in a vast ballpark. The team has to be changed in ways that DD cannot or will not change it this year. I just don't see it, don't feel it. They should be better, but...

babygranderson
12-17-2008, 09:02 PM
Papi,

I smell what you are cooking, for the most part. Poor team defense? I respectfully disagree. Strongly. Laird - top 3 catchers in the AL, Polly - gold glove caliber (did appear to slip last year, though), a healthy Everett has been tabbed the "best in baseball," Inge is GG caliber, Grandy - bar Sizemore, best in AL and/or MLB? In my opinion Miggy is avg/competent at 1B with upside defensively. LF scares the hell out of me with Guillen (good enough athlete - body is shot and learning a new position...AGAIN) and Maggs can't throw out the garbage with that pop gun arm in right....and he sure the hell isn't going to run hard at a gapshot.

No team in baseball jumps out at me as being better up the middle (maybe the Phils?) Add a GG at the hot corner, and I really don't see how we are poor on defense at this point.

This isn't a rocket scientist observation, but while I won't confuse our SP as 5 Cy Young candidates, but with this year's defense, I think we are all going to be surprised "how much better our pitchers got" in the offseason. Unearned runs leads to extra pitches. Extra pitches equals dead arms in July & August. Pitchers with crappy defenses try to be too fine at the plate and don't challenge hitters. They essentially try to make a perfect pitch every pitch. This leads to ahem...lots of walks. How many times did our pitchers chew hitters up last year, getting on top 0-2, or 1-2, and then they nibbled and either walked a damn #8 hitter or threw a fat, get me over fastball on 3-2 to avoid a walk...only to get clobbered at one of our many porous defenders...

(Imagine Elton John's Circle of Life Playing in the background)

Then at 11 pm. Jimmy would be confused, puffin' a marlboro and cursin' on TV...

hoog
12-18-2008, 09:07 AM
I'm actually willing to say this team is set if we get a closer. I do not like the SS selection but we still have Santiago (who I would have prefered anyway) to come in once Everett breaks down or doesn't crack the .200 mark by the first quarter of the season. I'd love to get some additional bullpen arms but even with Dolsi, Seay, Zumaya, Fien, and who ever else looses out on the starting gig's I'd be fine with right now as long as we got a solid closer. Our starting pitching is good and can be great if healthy and throwing strikes. With Jackson we got the innings eater I craved and at a much younger age than I thought. I'm willing to take my chances with Verlander, Bondo, Gallaraga, Jackson, and one of Minor, Willis, or Robertson. I like how the catcher position shook out for us and besides Sheffield taking up space for Larish I like our roster in general. Again, I'm good unless we skimp on the closer we so desperately have needed.

dddtfan
12-18-2008, 04:32 PM
That once our arbitration eligibles have their contract situations resolved that we may get a little more active in the trade market.

Who would want Rodney or Thames right now, not know what kind of financial obligation they'd be getting themselves into?

I bet Thames gets traded once his arbitration case is figured out...and I really think to the Blue Jays. Nobody wants to take on BJ Ryans contract at 10 Million per, because of the supply of closers on the Market right now. I'd think if the Jays are willing to trade him to get some much needed financial relief, we'd look at it if we could lose a smaller type contract that would levee a smaller NET cost to us than if we'd have ponied up 11 Million of Fuentes, or 13 Million for KROD. If we offload a bench guy that is useful to someone else that costs us 3-4 Million, that 10 Million that BJ Ryan earns is really only 6-7 Million in costs to us, because we've already budgeted...to an extent, that 3-4 Million to Thames for this season anyway...AND the Jays still save a decent enough chunk of change while meeting their shopping desires of a power type bat.

stanpapi
12-21-2008, 08:03 PM
Baby Granderson, you admit we're bad in left and adequate in right. And I'm sorry, but that right there will translate to a lot of balls bouncing around in the corners. Aside from Granderson (I wish we had 2 more of him, Ks aside), we're not adequate out there. Might not have been such a problem in the old Tiger Stadium, small yard. But as we have already seen, it's a huge deal at this new place. Cabrera is still learning to play 1st. The new catchers will be good, not great. Aside from Kenny Rogers, we can rest pretty assured that our pitchers can't field.

As for the slow part, it seems Sheff is still one of the better baserunners and he's going to be 40. Or is he already? Doesn't matter. Much of this goes back to the Cabrera trade, which puts Inge back at 3rd, Guillen in left, and Larrish and Thames out of luck. You guys are in so much denial about this. The hinge of this deal was always that Cabrera would hit, yes, but that he could also play an adequate 3B. And well, I'm sorry guys, but that's the only way that deal made sense. Instead of plugging a hole, he's now forcing us to hide guys. And look, they've been there long enough to know this. You simply cannot hide this many players. One is hard enough, but Guillen and Ordonez in the same outfield -- the CoPa outfield? As best, one of 'em needs to be a 1B and the other needs to DH. There is no other meaningful work for either.

mark1125
12-21-2008, 08:38 PM
I promise Guillen won't last in LF. He will get hurt, or we will somehow rid ourselves of Sheff and we can slide Guillen to DH.

theoldgoalie
12-22-2008, 03:21 PM
And if I thought that what you are pointing out were glaring weaknesses, I would completely agree, but they aren't glaring weaknesses. First off, I can't possible believe that Guillen is going to stay in left. Sheffield will be gone or hurt, Guillen will move to DH where he should be these days and I don't think Thames will move to left (although it won't hurt if he does), I think Thomas will be the man out there at least for awhile and that shores up lack of speed an defense. Ordonez is just fine in right and with all due respect, I don't believe for one minute that we picked up Cabrera exclusively to play third, the knock on him and we knew it was that he was too friggin fat to play third and couldn't keep the weight off. We picked him up for his bat (period). He is a young guy who will be a good replacement for Guillen when he ends up getting traded or leaving baseball, his body is starting to break down, we all know that. Ordonez will eventually move to DH and we have young up and coming talent for the outfield spots.

Pitching.....the verdict will be out, but I truly, truly believe that Verlander will rebound, Bonderman will be healthy, Galarraga will not be a fluke and that Jackson will be the innings eater that we have needed. I have no doubt that the innings the bull pen will see this year will be greatly reduced by effective starts. But the bottom line is.....Closer and at this point, anything less than Smoltz for the next year or two will be bad news for us past the eighth inning. He was a monster out of the bullpen during the 3 seasons he played there and he is still a VERY effective pitcher.

stanpapi
12-22-2008, 09:06 PM
Thomas is recovering from Tommy John surgery. I see no reason to believe that he will be available for the all-star break. And even then, who knows? These things go both ways.

Spartan2587
12-23-2008, 01:10 AM
Their new pitching coach is the Twins' old minor league pitching coach. As I'm sure most Tiger fans have noted, all the Twins' young pitchers are STUDS. So this guy has to be doing something right. For those of you who nitpick baseball, it was maddening how many 0-2 hits the Tigers gave up last year. Chuck Hernandez and Pudge always had a GREAT plan to let our pitchers through em right down the middle on 0-2. it was the most frustrating thing ever. Every pitcher has a bad year, and Verlander had two dominant years before that, so I expect him back. Bonderman gets ripped on way too much, sure he isn't a stud #1 guy but he is a very solid #2 (minus his unexplainable first inning woes). I don't think Galarraga can duplicate last season, but he should post 12 wins. Robertson is washed up, get him out of there. Hopefully Edwin Jackson can get the job done as another starter. Willis... well we will see, rumor has it he has lost like 25+ pounds (back to where he was in his first few seasons) and i guess last year there were a lot of personal issues outside of baseball, and no matter what you do, i know you all know it's impossible to focus on your job when there is something intense happening in your personal life. Bring in Zach Miner. He has been nothing be consistent and giving good outings. Especially with a new pitching coach who doesn't suck, I think he could really work with someone like Miner.

As for the bullpen... PLEASE GO AFTER FUENTES! I don't care how much it costs. Zumaya is too injury prone, and Rodney is just reliant on his changeup. They are good, maybe great, set-up men. But closers... no. Get a reliable, proven closer in there for a few years and leave the rest for the bullpen.

bpdelia
12-23-2008, 11:05 AM
I fyou wanna get Miguel Cabrera you gotta give. Miller hasn't come out yet (though maybin is quite a player.)

The Jurjens deal was absolutely inexcusable. But you cannot fault the Miggy trade becuause you loced up THE BEST young hiter in baseball. He's 25 and an all star.

Again. Jurjens=inexcusable and most fans scratched their head at that one a bit.
I do think the tirgers are a team that is in between. Things could brak just right and they could compete for the division (Sox are done, Twins are go but not great, Cleveland who knows.)

Thisis a make or break year that will either be a playoff appearance or a very slow decline.

They don't want to sign an impact FA because the need everypick.

LAST YEAR ALONE they traded 3 guys who would be top prospects in any organization 2 of which will be ML starters this year and one who hasn't hit his potential yet.

Jurjens (possible all star) Maybin (certain starter) Miller (who knows. Must improve command before he lives up to that arm)

bpdelia
12-23-2008, 11:06 AM
you can't go for Fuentes and give up a first round pick for a guy who is a good but not dominant reliever. Again you traded your 3 best young players. Cant give a pick for Fuentes.