PDA

View Full Version : Best PG In The East



La11
12-08-2008, 09:07 PM
Who is the best PG in the east and who would you have on your team?

MooseWithFleas
12-08-2008, 09:13 PM
Devin Harris or Jose Calderon. Rose is quickly rising though

MooseWithFleas
12-08-2008, 09:17 PM
Andre Miller should be above SOME of those guys on the list...

ShaunRiching9
12-08-2008, 09:25 PM
I picked Jose he migth not be the best skilled but hes the best at his position

MyCousinVinny
12-08-2008, 09:38 PM
y is there no andre miller...i went rose because he is the most tallented and most important to his team and he will only get better

i no its a homer pick but thats cuz i get to see him every game and hes simply amazing

harris is puting up better numbers tho so i could see him

kobe_isnt_human
12-08-2008, 09:42 PM
right now i would take rajon rondo, but in 2 years or so give me rose.

ProdigyI
12-08-2008, 09:45 PM
right now i would take rajon rondo, but in 2 years or so give me rose.

LOL what? He's averaging like 10 points a game and his assists should be way higher considering he plays with 3 all stars.

ink
12-08-2008, 09:50 PM
Miller added ...

AirJordanXVIII
12-08-2008, 09:53 PM
^^ Thank you.

But I'd pick Harris....

Gotta give some love to Miller.

#1Mavericksfan
12-08-2008, 09:54 PM
Rajon Rando...I like his game alot

RocketsRule
12-08-2008, 09:54 PM
I'm going to have to go with Devin Harris, he has emerged as a great scoring PG that can pass the ball effectively as well. Not to mention his team has had great success considering there expectations.

Jose Calderon is a very close second though.

mrblisterdundee
12-08-2008, 09:55 PM
I believe Devin Harris is the one who is seventh place on the Race to the MVP.

MakaSizzle
12-08-2008, 10:09 PM
I believe it is Derrick Rose who is the best player. I would want him on my team over Devin Harris, who is a close second.

La11
12-08-2008, 10:13 PM
Andre Miller should be above SOME of those guys on the list...

dammit i knew it i forgot someone..my bad

MAC10TIZZY
12-08-2008, 10:14 PM
jameer nelson is a close second, but first in my eyes!!!!!!

" all eyes on me"

La11
12-08-2008, 10:18 PM
I voted for Calderon but for Point aspect my top three is calderon,rose and andre miller(oops how did i forget) running the team. Make plays for others and no making plays for themselves(devin harris).

MrBloop
12-08-2008, 10:21 PM
Devin Harris or Jose Calderon. Rose is quickly rising though

Derrick Rose is the best in my opinion, but he's not the best passer or floor general, nor is he the best shooter, but he's hands down the best player on that list period...better than Harris or Caldron.

You know he's the best b/c if you replaced any PG with Rose, they would be a better team period.

He still has some holes in his game, but so do every1 on that list.

He's that good.

This is from a Knick fan.


If Rondo had a jump shot, he'd be a beast.

theuuord
12-08-2008, 10:24 PM
I voted for Calderon but for Point aspect my top three is calderon,rose and andre miller(oops how did i forget) running the team. Make plays for others and no making plays for themselves(devin harris).

So what does Devin Harris's 6.1 assists per game (13th in the NBA) tell you about his ability to make plays for others?

theuuord
12-08-2008, 10:25 PM
Derrick Rose is the best in my opinion, but he's not the best passer or floor general, nor is he the best shooter, but he's hands down the best player on that list period...better than Harris or Caldron.

You know he's the best b/c if you replaced any PG with Rose, they would be a better team period.

He still has some holes in his game, but so do every1 on that list.

He's that good.

This is from a Knick fan.


If Rondo had a jump shot, he'd be a beast.

I'm all for drinking the Rose Kool-Aid, but it's 20 games into the season. Not only is it a (very impressive) small sample size, he's still got a rookie wall to hit.
Which he may or may not, but I personally want to see him sustain this over the full season before I make any judgments.

bbcmillionaire
12-08-2008, 10:31 PM
rose, harris, rondo. although i think 2/3 is going to fall off. the question is who makes the biggerst impact on their team? defense and offense?

kobe_isnt_human
12-08-2008, 11:12 PM
LOL what? He's averaging like 10 points a game and his assists should be way higher considering he plays with 3 all stars.

he brings defense, he can drive to the hoop, he can pass and rebound the ball. he is also a proven champion. i dont see any reason why i wouldnt take him. but to you stats mean everthing right?

superkegger
12-08-2008, 11:14 PM
Devin Harris hands down. Dude's a stud and brings it on both ends of the court.

The CrucifiXioN
12-08-2008, 11:31 PM
Devin Harris. Derrick Rose may be better than him in the future, but for now, it's Harris.

theimortalone
12-08-2008, 11:38 PM
Devin Harris has been destroying teams this year. In the east, It definitly has to go to Devin Harris.

Westbrook36
12-08-2008, 11:47 PM
It has to be between Rose or Devin Harris, Thats talking about this year with Jose Calderon in a close third.

rosesbulls
12-09-2008, 12:49 AM
devin Harris
Rose
Calderon

You can mix and match but Harris is ahead imo, Rose is 2nd, Calderon is 3rd I can understand ordering the players any which way. Rondo went from underrated to overrated so quickly it's amazing.

LeBrowns
12-09-2008, 01:07 AM
Is a new thread on PG in the East now a weekly thing?

SAVAGE CLAW
12-09-2008, 01:15 AM
What do we want from a Point guard?

ASSISTS!!!!

Jose Calderon is only behind Chris Paul in the league with 9.6

Thats a LOT better than Rondos 7.6 and MUCH better than Harris 6.1 and Roses 6.0 .

Also i might point out to the assists per Turnover Ratios

Jose Calderon Leads the league with 4,79

Rondo is only 8th with 3.36

Devin Harris is 17 with 2.8 (half than Calderon).

Derrich Rose is at 42 :grin:

Im sorry But Harris and Rose are disguised Shooting Guards.

Efficiency Ranks:

Jose Calderon is the first to appear at number 33 .

Rondo is at 40.

Harris and rose dont cut the top 50.

So..............

Duhon deserves some love anyway...and a close look for MIP

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:19 AM
Jose Calderon is the first to appear at number 33 .

Rondo is at 40.

Harris and rose dont cut the top 50.


Devin Harris is 5th in the league in player efficiency, what are you talking about?

EDIT: Actually, in the NBA.com metric, Harris is 12th. Calderon is next, over 20 points below.

According to PER, which is usually as accurate as you can find, Harris is 5th...

DopieB
12-09-2008, 01:19 AM
Rose, it isn't that elite of a class in the East, but Rose is possibly the cream of the crop

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:20 AM
Here we go with the stat whores who rely on numbers to come to ridiculous conclusions.. The Raps got rocked twice in recent games.. I don't care what Calderon's assist average is.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:22 AM
Here we go with the stat whores who rely on numbers to come to ridiculous conclusions.. The Raps got rocked twice in recent games.. I don't care what Calderon's assist average is.

Stat whores is a ridiculous generalization, and I'm disagreeing with him.
It's not so much the stats as knowing how to contextualize them. If you can do that, then your argument becomes way more solid... At least more solid than "I saw him and he looks good."
But throwing up stats willy-nilly without proper context is a HUGE no-no and how many numbers get manipulated.

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:24 AM
Stat whores is a ridiculous generalization, and I'm disagreeing with him.
It's not so much the stats as knowing how to contextualize them. If you can do that, then your argument becomes way more solid... At least more solid than "I saw him and he looks good."
But throwing up stats willy-nilly without proper context is a HUGE no-no and how many numbers get manipulated.

Gee, do you think that might have been my point... and anyone who thinks Rose is a SG either never watches him play more than a few games, doesn't know basketball or has a personal dislike for him.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:26 AM
And also:

What do we want from a Point guard?

ASSISTS!!!!


No. No no no no. Just no. No.

Assists are a PART of a point guard's game - and for many, a big part - but they aren't the only thing. I want a point guard who will help me win games in whatever way he can in the most efficient way possible.

It's not just like "player A's assists > player B's, so player A is better." There's way more to the equation.

SAVAGE CLAW
12-09-2008, 01:26 AM
^I dont Believe in Stats but since 80% of these boards are all about the back on the Uper Deck card i threw them in.

Still i take Calderon over all of them NOW.

If Rondo develops a good shooting mechanic he will be better soon.

And Rose....he should Play the Two.

Harris is just Filling up his stats this year, he should Join Zach Randolph and some others in a 20 + useless ppg team.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:27 AM
Gee, do you think that might have been my point... and anyone who thinks Rose is a SG either never watches him play more than a few games, doesn't know basketball or has a personal dislike for him.

Usually the term "stat whores" or anything like it is used to describe anyone who uses statistical methods to prove their point, regardless of if they use it effectively or not. If that was your point, I apologize, but my point does still stand.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:29 AM
^I dont Believe in Stats but since 80% of these boards are all about the back on the Uper Deck card i threw them in.

Still i take Calderon over all of them NOW.

If Rondo develops a good shooting mechanic he will be better soon.

And Rose....he should Play the Two.

Harris is just Filling up his stats this year, he should Join Zach Randolph and some others in a 20 + useless ppg team.

LOL @ throwing away a stat you used in your point because you missed Devin Harris in the list way above Calderon.

Riiiiight.

Devin Harris is on a useless team? Last I checked, the Nets were three games over .500 and 11-5 with Harris in the lineup. Seems like he's doing quite well.
Meanwhile Calderon is on a team three games below .500 which is 7-10 with him in the lineup.

SAVAGE CLAW
12-09-2008, 01:29 AM
Gee, do you think that might have been my point... and anyone who thinks Rose is a SG either never watches him play more than a few games, doesn't know basketball or has a personal dislike for him.


Absolutely not the case, in fact i think he is the ROY so far until now.

But i also understand he has TONS of things to develop to clain himself to be the best Pg.

The only Pg EVER to enter the league being the top dog from day one was Magic Johnson, Rose is not on that category.

I know Bull fans are really high on a kid that is from the area and everything and he looks like a top 10 guy in the league some years from now but not yet.

Its becoming boring to see Bull fans overhype him, is kind of the same **** that Lakers come up with Bynum.....

SAVAGE CLAW
12-09-2008, 01:31 AM
Did i mention Calderon is not fully recovered from is injury and is nor forcing the matters?

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:31 AM
Absolutely not the case, in fact i think he is the ROY so far until now.

But i also understand he has TONS of things to develop to clain himself to be the best Pg.

The only Pg EVER to enter the league being the top dog from day one was Magic Johnson, Rose is not on that category.

I know Bull fans are really high on a kid that is from the area and everything and he looks like a top 10 guy in the league some years from now but not yet.

Its becoming boring to see Bull fans overhype him, is kind of the same **** that Lakers come up with Bynum.....

Fan opinions aside; I posted an East scouts opinon of the Top 3 PG's in the East: Rondo, Devin, Rose in that order. Calderon wasn't there.

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:32 AM
Usually the term "stat whores" or anything like it is used to describe anyone who uses statistical methods to prove their point, regardless of if they use it effectively or not. If that was your point, I apologize, but my point does still stand.

:rolleyes: whatever, dude.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:33 AM
Did i mention Calderon is not fully recovered from is injury and is nor forcing the matters?

Devin Harris has come back from injury, played through a flu and still dropped 27 points, eight assists, and four steals that night.
Keep trying though.

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:38 AM
East scout on the top three point guards in his conference

"Coming into the year I'd have said that [Jose] Calderon is the best true point guard of the group. Based on what we've seen so far, I'll say [Rajon] Rondo, then [Devin] Harris, then [Derrick] Rose. I've only seen Rose in person a couple times, but everything you've heard is true: He's pretty darn good already. But I'll put Harris just ahead of him; New Jersey's [new] style of play really works to his benefit.

"The thing about that [dribble-drive] offense is that when [Harris] gets the ball with a dribble handoff, he's at full speed … and he's already quick. So he's another step ahead of the defender who's playing catch-up. He's always been a pretty good aggressive driver, but he's been able to attack even more than he used to in Dallas. I don't think [Harris] has to think as much. He uses his instincts, looks to score first and is playing at a really high level."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081206-07

SAVAGE CLAW
12-09-2008, 01:39 AM
^Nah im fed up of wasting my time trying to make the ignorant, the chauvinist and the Blind see...

Whatever you want sportscenter kid...

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:42 AM
^Nah im fed up of wasting my time trying to make the ignorant, the chauvinist and the Blind see...

Whatever you want sportscenter kid...

You're a Raptors fan aren't you... you know what, ESPN and the entire United States sports machine is against you!!! Run away, run away!

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:43 AM
^Nah im fed up of wasting my time trying to make the ignorant, the chauvinist and the Blind see...

Whatever you want sportscenter kid...

uhh
what?

ignorant and chauvinist? Sportscenter?

Do you even know what you're talking about anymore?

Draco
12-09-2008, 01:44 AM
uhh
what?

ignorant and chauvinist? Sportscenter?

Do you even know what you're talking about anymore?

I tried to move a discusssion of opinions beyond what Fans think and introduced the opinion of someone who actually works in the NBA.. Apparently, Savage whatever his face thought that was being ignorant. :rolleyes:

superkegger
12-09-2008, 01:45 AM
^Nah im fed up of wasting my time trying to make the ignorant, the chauvinist and the Blind see...

Whatever you want sportscenter kid...


what would being a chauvinist have to do with anything? I'm not sure thats the word you were looking for.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:47 AM
I tried to move a discusssion of opinions beyond what Fans think and introduced the opinion of someone who actually works in the NBA.. Apparently, Savage whatever his face thought that was being ignorant. :rolleyes:

lol. Something like that.

I mean, scouts aren't exactly the be-all-end-all of player eval discussions, but they usually have more of a grasp on player's styles than we do simply because of the job description.

Sometimes I have legitimate disagreements with them though.

MakaSizzle
12-09-2008, 01:51 AM
Calderon defers to Chris Bosh late in games, Harris defers to VC late in games(not positive haven't seen to many NJ games), Rondo defers to everyone else late in games.

Rose defers to no one. He makes a play happen by kicking it out while knifing through the defense at will, or breaking someones ankles, rising up, and scoring.

If it is late in a game I want the ball in my PG's hands. Rose already has more experience with that than any of these leaches.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:53 AM
Calderon defers to Chris Bosh late in games, Harris defers to VC late in games(not positive haven't seen to many NJ games), Rondo defers to everyone else late in games.

Rose defers to no one. He makes a play happen by kicking it out while knifing through the defense at will, or breaking someones ankles, rising up, and scoring.

If it is late in a game I want the ball in my PG's hands. Rose already has more experience with that than any of these leaches.

To clarify, Harris does not defer to VC late in games. In fact it's quite the opposite; with the exception of the Toronto game (for obvious reasons), the ball has usually been in Harris's hands when the game is on the line.

snoop2327
12-09-2008, 02:13 AM
no love for Mo Williams...since he has been a cav he only has 3 loses yet all people look at is points and assists oh well

StraightBallin
12-09-2008, 02:21 AM
LOL what? He's averaging like 10 points a game and his assists should be way higher considering he plays with 3 all stars.

That statement is completely false. If you watched the Celtics play you'd see that Paul Pierce handles the ball and plays point forward for a good portion of the game. Kevin Garnett gets a bunch of assists by backing guys down and kicking it out to an open man and, at least 2 or 3 times a game Rondo will hit Garnett right under the rim with a great pass and Garnett will pass up the easy bucket to make the extra pass to Kendrick Perkins, Leon Powe, Glen Davis or, whoever is cutting to the hoop. Rondo has a great assist to turnover ratio and, he has 2 other playmakers in the starting lineup that take away from his statistics. If Rondo played for a team like Memphis or Oklahoma City he would average more points per game and more assists. People say he'd be nothing if he didn't play with the Celtics. That's not true at all. He doesn't have to do that much because he plays with the Celtics but, when Rondo's in the game with the C's second unit you can see that he's a real good PG. He doesn't need anyone to set a pick for him to get into the lane. He can blow by any PG in the league because he's so fast and, he can finish when he gets to the hoop. He's a great rebounder and, his defense is incredible. If he could hit the outside shot consistently he'd be a top 5 PG in the league. The only PG in the East that I'd take over him is Derrick Rose. Devin Harris is a very good player but, I don't consider him a PG at all. He's more of a SG in a PG's body and, I don't have a clue as to why everyone thinks Jose Calderon is so good. He's not that good. Rondo is twice as good as Calderon and, Calderon isn't going to get any better. What you see right now from Jose Calderon is exactly what you'll see from Jose Calderon his whole career. Rondo is still improving and he's better than Calderon.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 02:24 AM
Calderon defers to Chris Bosh late in games, Harris defers to VC late in games(not positive haven't seen to many NJ games), Rondo defers to everyone else late in games.

Rose defers to no one. He makes a play happen by kicking it out while knifing through the defense at will, or breaking someones ankles, rising up, and scoring.

If it is late in a game I want the ball in my PG's hands. Rose already has more experience with that than any of these leaches.

Um which is why the bulls are such amazing
for clarification in the clutch Rose shoots 44% while harris shoots over 60%

DH owns the east

WSbluejays
12-09-2008, 02:48 AM
I voted for calderon because i felt obligated to. but devin harris is the best player playing the point guard position.

Rondo impressed me when he played against the raptors. but jose calderons defence might have had something to do with it. but rondo is still good. I would say he is the 3rd or 4rth and rising.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 02:49 AM
Um which is why the bulls are such amazing
for clarification in the clutch Rose shoots 44% while harris shoots over 60%

DH owns the east

Where did you get those stats? Harris shoots over 60% in the clutch and, Rose shoots 44%? Where does it say anywhere on any website how a player shoots in the clutch or, when the games on the line? Your a fool to say that. Derrick Rose is a true PG and, you'd have to be insane to want Devin Harris on your team over Rose. I agree with StraightBallin. Devin Harris is not a pure PG. He was playing the 2 guard when he was in Dallas the majority of the time. He's more of a SG so he can never really be the top PG in the East.

#1- Derrick Rose. That's a no brainer. He has the size, speed, defense and can shoot. In 3 years he'll be right there with CP3.
#2- Rajon Rondo. He's does everything a PG should do very well except shoot from long range but, his jumper is improving.
#3- Jose Calderon. Great basketball IQ, excellent passer but, not much of a defender or rebounder.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 02:56 AM
Where did you get those stats? Harris shoots over 60% in the clutch and, Rose shoots 44%? Where does it say anywhere on any website how a player shoots in the clutch or, when the games on the line? Your a fool to say that. Derrick Rose is a true PG and, you'd have to be insane to want Devin Harris on your team over Rose. I agree with StraightBallin. Devin Harris is not a pure PG. He was playing the 2 guard when he was in Dallas the majority of the time. He's more of a SG so he can never really be the top PG in the East.

#1- Derrick Rose. That's a no brainer. He has the size of Deron Williams and speed of CP3
#2- Rajon Rondo. He's contributes in so many different ways and he continues to improve
#3- Jose Calderon. Great basketball IQ, excellent passer but, not much of a defender or rebounder.

Ignorance is bliss aint it. Do some research before you call people fools. Its not who you'd build a team around but whos better right now, and Harris is better. He's taken a team with comparable talent to the bulls and brought them to a winning record.

Iodine, own this kid.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 03:03 AM
Were did you get thosd stats? Harris shoots over 60% in the clutch and, Rose shoots 44%? Where does it say anywhere on any website how a player shoots in the clutch or? Your a fool to say that. Derrick Rose is a true PG and, you'd have to be insane to want Devin Harris on your team over Rose. I agree with StraightBallin. Devin Harris is not a pure PG. He was playing the 2 guard when he was in Dallas the majority of the time. He's more of a SG so he can never really be the top PG in the East.

#1- Derrick Rose. That's a no brainer. He has the size of Deron Williams and speed of CP3
#2- Rajon Rondo. He's contributes in so many different ways and he continues to improve
#3- Jose Calderon. Great basketball IQ, excellent passer but, not much of a defender or rebounder.

The fact youv never heard of 82games.com proves you have no idea what your talking about

And that rose has a much less Orating than harris (high one twenties to 109) a higher turnover percentage with less usage, lower TS% and EFG% than harris, a lower assist percentage, less than half the offensive win shares, a roland rating one tenth of harris's, better FG% on jumpers and inside shots, has a winning percentage of 45% to DH's 60%, has more of his shots blocked than harris, and finally has a per(A stat i hate but everyone thinks is awesome) ten less than harris

Now if you could back up your argument with stats and or other things that can be proven that would be great

Morgan
12-09-2008, 03:07 AM
Ignorance is bliss aint it. Do some research before you call people fools. Its not who you'd build a team around but whos better right now, and Harris is better. He's taken a team with comparable talent to the bulls and brought them to a winning record.

Iodine, own this kid.

I called him a fool because he said Devin Harris shoots over 60% in the clutch and, Derrick Rose shoots 44% in the clutch because there's no such stat as how good a players shooing % is in the clutch. I could see him saying Harris is better than Rose in the clutch but, throw up clutch shooing percentages is ridiculous. That's why I called him a fool. I didn't call him a fool because he said Devin Harris is better than Derrick Rose. Everyone has the right to their opinion but, when you start throwing up ridiculous non existent statistics to prove your point that makes you look fooling and, it actually takes his credibility away because what he said was foolish. Straight up.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 03:10 AM
I called him a fool because he said Devin Harris shoots over 60% in the clutch and, Derrick Rose shoots 44% in the clutch because there's no such stat as how good a players shooing % is in the clutch. I could see him saying Harris is better than Rose in the clutch but, throw up clutch shooing percentages is ridiculous. That's why I called him a fool. I didn't call him a fool because he said Devin Harris is better than Derrick Rose. Everyone has the right to their opinion but, when you start throwing up ridiculous non existent statistics to prove your point that makes you look fooling and, it actually takes his credibility away because what he said was foolish. Strsight up.

No such stat?

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CHI1.HTM#clutch

http://www.82games.com/0809/08NJN1.HTM#clutch

Morgan
12-09-2008, 03:16 AM
The fact youv never heard of 82games.com proves you have no idea what your talking about

And that rose has a much less Orating than harris (high one twenties to 109) a higher turnover percentage with less usage, lower TS% and EFG% than harris, a lower assist percentage, less than half the offensive win shares, a roland rating one tenth of harris's, better FG% on jumpers and inside shots, has a winning percentage of 45% to DH's 60%, has more of his shots blocked than harris, and finally has a per(A stat i hate but everyone thinks is awesome) ten less than harris

Now if you could back up your argument with stats and or other things that can be proven that would be great

This thread said who's the best PG in the East. Devin Harris is a very good player. He's a great scorer and a pretty good defender but, he's not a pure PG. I view him as a SG in a PG's body. Like a better version of Tony Delk or a Eddie House. Maybe he'll become a great playmaker some day and will be considered as one of the top PG's in basketball but, as of right now he is more of a scorer. You never hear Allen Iverson's name in the top PG in basketball conversation do ya? No and that's my point. You have the right to your own opinion and have the right to mine and, I say Devin Harris is not a true PG. That's all I got to say. I got better things to do than argue in a blog on the computer my man.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 03:21 AM
lol i love that arguement
so before it was fine for you to argue but once you cant do anything to prove your right its ********
its great how you responded to keeg's post about the clutch shooting stat with a link included

superkegger
12-09-2008, 03:22 AM
This thread said who's the best PG in the East. Devin Harris is a very good player. He's a great scorer and a pretty good defender but, he's not a pure PG. I view him as a SG in a PG's body. Like a better version of Tony Delk or a Eddie House. Maybe he'll become a great playmaker some day and will be considered as one of the top PG's in basketball but, as of right now he is more of a scorer. You never hear Allen Iverson's name in the top PG in basketball conversation do ya? No and that's my point. You have the right to your own opinion and have the right to mine and, I say Devin Harris is not a true PG. That's all I got to say. I got better things to do than argue in a blog on the computer my man.

Obviously not, because you replied to us 3 times and you joined the site for just that very reason. And what difference does it make if hes a "pure" pg or a more offensive minded pg. Chauncey billups isn't a "pure" pg, but nobody ever makes him out to be less of a pg because of it.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 03:24 AM
Obviously not, because you replied to us 3 times and you joined the site for just that very reason. And what difference does it make if hes a "pure" pg or a more offensive minded pg. Chauncey billups isn't a "pure" pg, but nobody ever makes him out to be less of a pg because of it.

Thats because Chauncy billups won a championship and finals MVP
hey didnt tony parker do that to?
Offensive minded PG's are part of the game now and will be with the current way the NBA is set up
Deal with it

superkegger
12-09-2008, 03:29 AM
Thats because Chauncy billups won a championship and finals MVP
hey didnt tony parker do that to?
Offensive minded PG's are part of the game now and will be with the current way the NBA is set up
Deal with it

Ahh, but Iodine, you forgot about the little known rule.
See chapter 9 verse 17:
"When discussing who is the best point guard in the NBA's Eastern Conference, only pure point guards will be given consideration. These combo guards and offensive minded point guards are vermin and a mockery of the game and will be given no consideration when it comes to the best point guard in the Eastern Conference."

So I guess he's right, only the "pure" pg's can be considered, thus ruling out devin harris.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 03:31 AM
I guess the glove shouldnt get in the HOF then i assume

superkegger
12-09-2008, 03:37 AM
I guess the glove shouldnt get in the HOF then i assume

Well of course not, he was an offensive minded PG, and wasn't a pure pg, he wouldn't even be in consideration for the HOF. That's a pretty easy one Iodine, I'm surprised you even had to ask.

codes238
12-09-2008, 03:45 AM
i think its already derrick rose personally, 6 assists per game is amazing considering his already the focus of the other team's d and he has almost noone besides ben gordon to play with... "devin harris with a better jump shot" is rose's absolute worst case scenario and thats a scary thought...

Iodine
12-09-2008, 03:48 AM
Wait you say he is already the best yet you say the worst case is devin harris a player you say he is already better than

what
the
ef?

ink
12-09-2008, 03:54 AM
This thread said who's the best PG in the East. Devin Harris is a very good player. He's a great scorer and a pretty good defender but, he's not a pure PG. I view him as a SG in a PG's body. Like a better version of Tony Delk or a Eddie House. Maybe he'll become a great playmaker some day and will be considered as one of the top PG's in basketball but, as of right now he is more of a scorer. You never hear Allen Iverson's name in the top PG in basketball conversation do ya? No and that's my point. You have the right to your own opinion and have the right to mine and, I say Devin Harris is not a true PG. That's all I got to say.

Sounds about right.

Hellcrooner
12-09-2008, 03:57 AM
Wow we are going to have a fun decade discussing about the Best Point Guard....

it seems it was yesterday when all the fan boy fight was around sgs with T-macs, KObes, Caretrs, Iversons , Wades etc fans discussing about who was the best player.....


Now look , Deron, Paul, Rose, Harris, Calderon,rondo and upcoming they are Rubio and Jennings!!!

Morgan
12-09-2008, 04:14 AM
Obviously not, because you replied to us 3 times and you joined the site for just that very reason. And what difference does it make if hes a "pure" pg or a more offensive minded pg. Chauncey billups isn't a "pure" pg, but nobody ever makes him out to be less of a pg because of it.

Chauncey Billups is more of a PG than Devin Harris. Look this kid Harris can score and play some pretty good defense but, if I was starting a expansion team in the NBA and, I could pick Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, or Devin Harris to be my future PG I'd pick Rose and Rondo before Harris. Even though I posted earlier that the top 3 PG's in the East were Rose, Rondo, then Calderon I would still take Harris over Calderon. I said that earlier because I was basing my decision on not who the best shooter was or best scorer but, I was basing it on skills that I think a PG should possess and, Devin Harris doesn't possess a lot of the skills that Rose and Rondo have. Harris is a very good combo guard. He's like the Eastern Conference version of Monta Ellis but, I don't think he'll ever be a great PG and, I know Rose could be a great PG in this league. I'm pretty sure Rondo could be a great PG in this league because every single time I see Rose or Rondo play they both just keep getting better. I just don't think that Devin Harris is going to be a great PG. If he was on the Bulls he wouldn't start over Rose. If he was on the Celtics he wouldn't start over Rondo. He's the starting PG for a mediocre team. He's going to end up being like a Jason Terry type player. The Nets will end up drafting a pure PG within a few years and, Harris will bouce back and forth from the PG to the SG position just like Jason Terry which isn't a bad thing but, that's going to ne his future. Don't get me wrong, I like his game. He's having a great season and, he's one heck of a scorer but, his destiny is to be a very good combo guard. That's not a put down by any means. A guard that can play and defend at 2 positions is a valuable asset to any team. I'm a Devin Harris fan but, he's no Derrick Rose. That's for damn sure.

shataun
12-09-2008, 04:21 AM
Can't kno guard stop D-ROSE in the nba , so how is he not the best point guard in the east. COM ON NOW

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:21 AM
Chauncey Billups is more of a PG than Devin Harris. Look this kid Harris can score and play some pretty good defense but, if I was starting a expansion team in the NBA and, I could pick Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, or Devin Harris to be my future PG I'd pick Rose and Rondo before Harris. Even though I posted earlier that the top 3 PG's in the East were Rose, Rondo, then Calderon I would still take Harris over Calderon. I said that earlier because I was basing my decision on not who the best shooter was or best scorer but, I was basing it on skills that I think a PG should possess and, Devin Harris doesn't possess a lot of the skills that Rose and Rondo have. Harris is a very good combo guard. He's like the Eastern Conference version of Monta Ellis but, I don't think he'll ever be a great PG and, I know Rose could be a great PG in this league. I'm pretty sure Rondo could be a great PG in this league because every single time I see Rose or Rondo play they both just keep getting better. I just don't think that Devin Harris is going to be a great PG. If he was on the Bulls he wouldn't start over Rose. If he was on the Celtics he wouldn't start over Rondo. He's the starting PG for a mediocre team. He's going to end up being like a Jason Terry type player. The Nets will end up drafting a pure PG within a few years and, Harris will bouce back and forth from the PG to the SG position just like Jason Terry which isn't a bad thing but, that's going to ne his future. Don't get me wrong, I like his game. He's having a great season and, he's one heck of a scorer but, his destiny is to be a very good combo guard. That's not a put down by any means. A guard that can play and defend at 2 positions is a valuable asset to any team. I'm a Devin Harris fan but, he's no Derrick Rose. That's for damn sure.

i completely disagree with that entire thing.

Harris is a pg, and he already is an elite pg. He would most definetly start over Rondo, and I have a hard time believing where he on the bulls, they would have drafted Rose to begin with. The Nets don't need a pure pg, they have a pg, who not only scores very well, and is clutch, but also runs the offense and sets up other guys, which is what a pg does.

As far as the Jason Terry comparison, not even close, Terry is a shooter, thats what hes always been. Harris isn't a shooter, hes a slasher and ball handler. They're not the same at all

I bet a few years back people would have said the same thing you said about Harris about Chauncey. And he proved them dead wrong. Harris isn't a pure pg, which is what dallas tried to use him as. He's an offensive minded pg, and it works very well for him now that he's in a system where he gets the ball and isn't forced to feed other guys.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 04:29 AM
I guess the glove shouldnt get in the HOF then i assume

Gary Payton career assists per game is 6.9 and, his last few years when he played with the Lakers, Celtics, and Heat dropped that down dramatically. He had years where he averaged 9.3, 9.0, 8.6. and 8.4 assists per game. Devin Harris's career assists per game is 3.8. He's not a playmaker. He's a combo guard and, don't even try to put Harris in the same category as Payton because Payton scored but, he dished out dimes too. Nobody would ever say Payton wasn't a pure PG or that he was a combo guard and, plenty of people will say that Devin Harris is a combo guard and that he isn't really a playmaker. Your comparing apples and oranges my friend.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 04:32 AM
Gary Payton career assists per game is 6.9 and, his last few years when he played with the Lakers, Celtics, and Heat dropped that down dramatically. He had years where he averaged 9.3, 9.0, 8.6. and 8.4 assists per game. Devin Harris's career assists per game is 3.8. He's not a playmaker. He's a combo guard and, don't even try to put Harris in the same category as Payton because Payton scored but, he dished out dimes too. Nobody would ever say Payton wasn't a pure PG or that he was a combo guard and, plenty of people will say that Devin Harris is a combo guard and that he isn't really a playmaker. Your comparing apples and oranges my friend.

:clap::clap::clap::clap: you pretty much have answered "i have no other way to debate this but go after this horrible joke"
still waiting for an answer on the clutch thing

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:32 AM
Gary Payton career assists per game is 6.9 and, his last few years when he played with the Lakers, Celtics, and Heat dropped that down dramatically. He had years where he averaged 9.3, 9.0, 8.6. and 8.4 assists per game. Devin Harris's career assists per game is 3.8. He's not a playmaker. He's a combo guard and, don't even try to put Harris in the same category as Payton because Payton scored but, he dished out dimes too. Nobody would ever say Payton wasn't a pure PG or that he was a combo guard and, plenty of people will say that Devin Harris is a combo guard and that he isn't really a playmaker. Your comparing apples and oranges my friend.

yes, we're also very early in harris' career, and now when hes given the rock hes dishing it around pretty nicely...unless having the same # of assists per game as your boy rose means he's not a playmaker. If thats the case, we'll just remove playmaker from things derrick rose does.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 04:34 AM
i completely disagree with that entire thing.

Harris is a pg, and he already is an elite pg. He would most definetly start over Rondo, and I have a hard time believing where he on the bulls, they would have drafted Rose to begin with. The Nets don't need a pure pg, they have a pg, who not only scores very well, and is clutch, but also runs the offense and sets up other guys, which is what a pg does.

As far as the Jason Terry comparison, not even close, Terry is a shooter, thats what hes always been. Harris isn't a shooter, hes a slasher and ball handler. They're not the same at all

I bet a few years back people would have said the same thing you said about Harris about Chauncey. And he proved them dead wrong. Harris isn't a pure pg, which is what dallas tried to use him as. He's an offensive minded pg, and it works very well for him now that he's in a system where he gets the ball and isn't forced to feed other guys.


You didn't just say that did you? That if the Bulls had Devin Harris they would have never drafted Derrick Rose? LOL. You just proved to me with that one sentence that you don't have a clue. That could possibly be the dumbest comment I ever heard. Wait until tomorrow when heads wake up and read that comment. You'll never hear the end of it. LOL. Wow

ProdigyI
12-09-2008, 04:34 AM
Harris is actually a SG. Didnt he play SG at Wisconsin.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:36 AM
And if devin harris isn't a playmaker, how come the eFG% goes up nearly 5% with him on the floor? probably because he never creates easy looks for others with his penetration. Or nevermind that with harris on the court their net points per 100 possesions goes up 16.4 pts. that doesn't matter though, because you said hes not a playmaker.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:38 AM
You didn't just say that did you? That if the Bulls had Devin Harris they would have never drafted Derrick Rose? LOL. You just proved to me with that one sentence that you don't have a clue. That could possibly be the dumbest comment I ever heard. Wait until tomorrow when heads wake up and read that comment. You'll never hear the end of it. LOL. Wow

Yeah, actually I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have. Because Harris is putting up better stats, and is a better player, and they needed a post presence, and still need a post presence. And if they had harris, they wouldn't need Rose.


Harris is actually a SG. Didnt he play SG at Wisconsin.
No.

ProdigyI
12-09-2008, 04:38 AM
rose ***** on harris

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:39 AM
rose ***** on harris

solid point. good contribution to the discussion. thanks.

ProdigyI
12-09-2008, 04:41 AM
cbs says Harris is a SG. http://www.sportsline.com/nba/players/playerpage/498285

StraightBallin
12-09-2008, 04:42 AM
Harris is actually a SG. Didnt he play SG at Wisconsin.

Thank you. Your the only guy who gets it Wisconsin.

ProdigyI
12-09-2008, 04:43 AM
Harris is not a true PG. He shouldnt even be in this discussion. Rose is the best PG Period.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:44 AM
cbs says Harris is a SG. http://www.sportsline.com/nba/players/playerpage/498285

and then literally right below that they say this.


Harris becoming a scoring machine: New Jersey PG Devin Harris felt terrible before the game. He made sure Philadelphia felt that way when it was over. Harris shook off the flu and scored a game-high 27 points Saturday against the 76ers. Harris, who scored 47 points against the Suns just four games ago, was 9-of-17 from the field with two threes. He added eight assists and four steals in the game. "I wasn't feeling that great and I didn't warm up at all," Harris said after leading the Nets to their fifth win in six games and fourth straight on the road. "But once you get a couple of shots to drop, it seems to open up a bit more."
(Updated 12/06/2008).

Iodine
12-09-2008, 04:46 AM
They also list rodney stucky as an SG
I hate to tell you but http://www.82games.com/0809/08NJN1.HTM#bypos has him playing all his minutes at PG

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:48 AM
Harris is not a true PG. He shouldnt even be in this discussion. Rose is the best PG Period.

so pg discussions from now on shall exclude tony parker, billups, harris, baron davis, mike bibby, mo williams, delonte west, derek fisher and TJ ford.

I mean that only seems sensible. Not pure or true pg's can't be talked about in pg discussions because they're not true pg's

We should then take out dirk from PF discussions, since he isn't your traditional PF. Oh, and take Wade out of any sg discussions since he plays the point some and is a combo guard.

ProdigyI
12-09-2008, 04:49 AM
Well ya he's playing PG FOR HIS TEAM so obviously they will address him as PG.

If you had Lebron playing point guard, you would address him as PG. It doesnt mean though that the player is a natural point guard.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 04:50 AM
You forgot Gilbert Arenas
I guess lamar Odom dosnt have a position then

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:56 AM
Well ya he's playing PG FOR HIS TEAM so obviously they will address him as PG.

If you had Lebron playing point guard, you would address him as PG. It doesnt mean though that the player is a natural point guard.

What does it matter what his natural position is? Devin Harris plays pg in the NBA and is a PG in the NBA. He starts there, he plays his minutes there, and he calls himself a pg, but because you say its not his natural position, he's not in the discussion. Solid point.


You forgot Gilbert Arenas
I guess lamar Odom dosnt have a position then

Yes Lamar Odom actually play small power foward point guard, you probably didn't know but when he comes in 4 guys go to the bench and lamar just plays 4 positions.

And if Harris isn't a pure pg, how is he at all different from rose? he scores only 4 less ppg and they have the same amount of apg. huge difference in style of play I know, it must man devin harris isn't a pg.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 05:04 AM
rose ***** on harris

Prodigy did you see he said that if the Bulls had Devin Harris they would have never drafted Derrick Rose with the 1st pick in the draft? WTF. This kid doesn't have a clue. I posting that quote as my sig. I have to.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 05:05 AM
Prodigy did you see he said that if the Bulls had Devin Harris they would have never drafted Derrick Rose with the 1st pick in the draft? WTF. This kid doesn't have a clue. I posting that quote as my sig. I have to.

Go for it.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 05:07 AM
I got better things to do than argue in a blog on the computer my man.

lol
just lol

superkegger
12-09-2008, 05:08 AM
lol
just lol

He does, for sure, hes got to sig quote me and stuff, thats more important.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 05:18 AM
Rajon Rondo
10.3 ppg
4.9 rpg
7.6 apg
2.3 spg
52% fg

Devin Harris
24.4 ppg
3.4 rpg
6.1 apg
1.4 spg
48% fg

The only category Harris is better is at scoring. That goes to show you that he's more of a combo guard. I'd take Rondo over Harris. The defense, the playmaking ability, the rebounding, the FG%. That's the type of point guard i would want running my team and, I'm sure 85% of the NBA coaches would to. I didn't even put up Derrick Rose's stats because there's no point. Anybody in their right mind would take Rose over Harris. Any coach, any GM, any scout. That's a no brainer. Just like picking Obama for president over McCain was a no brainer.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 05:22 AM
Rajon Rondo
10.3 ppg
4.9 rpg
7.6 apg
2.3 spg
52% fg

Devin Harris
24.4 ppg
3.4 rpg
6.1 apg
1.4 spg
48% fg

The only category Harris is better is at scoring. That goes to show you that he's more of a combo guard. I'd take Rondo over Harris. The defense, the playmaking ability, the rebounding, the FG%. That's the type of point guard i would want running my team and, I'm sure 85% of the NBA coaches would to. I didn't even put up Derrick Rose's stats because there's no point. Anybody in their right mind would take Rose over Harris. Any coach, any GM, any scout. That's a no brainer. Just like picking Obama for president over McCain was a no brainer.

I'll give you Obama over McCain.

But I'm pretty sure 85% of NBA coaches and scouts wouldn't take Rondo over Harris. In fact, I am very very comfortable saying 85% would take Harris over Rondo, if not more.

But clearly you're not giving up your hairbrained idea that a pure PG is the best and only way to go, and because Harris can score, he's not a good pg. Except for the fact that he's been mentioned in the MVP balloting, people are raving about how dallas ****ed up hardcore trading kidd for him, so on and so forth. So, its cool if you want to continue to believe that because he's not a pure pg, it makes him less of a pg. I know that it doesn't, and the trophies Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups hold as Finals MVP's as not pure pg's validates me.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 05:28 AM
Because shooting 52% is insanly hard when your the 4th option right?
Rondo also has twice the turnover % with just over half the usage
Rondo's TS%(im going to assume you dont know what it is the formula is PTS / (2 * (FGA + 0.44 * FTA)) is almost one hundred points below his

Plus when was the last time you thought
Rondo can easily win us the game on this possesion

Morgan
12-09-2008, 05:32 AM
I'll give you Obama over McCain.

But I'm pretty sure 85% of NBA coaches and scouts wouldn't take Rondo over Harris. In fact, I am very very comfortable saying 85% would take Harris over Rondo, if not more.

All Rondo's stats are better except scoring because he doesn't need to be one of the main scorers like Harris does and, Harris averages 9 more minutes a game than Rondo. The assists, steals, and rebounds are what jumps out at me and, Rondo is only playing 30 mpg. Harris is playing 39.5 mpg. I'd take the playmaker over the scorer all day everyday. That's my opinion. You can have your opinion and, I bet some heads would take your side choosing Harris over Rondo but, to chose Harris over Rose is totally insane. The scouts say he has the speed of Chris Paul and the size of Deron Williams. Everybody knows Derrick Rose is going to be a superstar but, I haven't heard anybody even say Devin Harris is going to be a superstar one time so far. So you do the math.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 05:34 AM
All Rondo's stats are better except scoring because he doesn't need to be one of the main scorers like Harris does and, Harris averages 9 more minutes a game than Rondo. The assists, steals, and rebounds are what jumps out at me and, Rondo is only playing 30 mpg. Harris is playing 39.5 mpg. I'd take the playmaker over the scorer all day everyday. That's my opinion. You can have your opinion and, I bet some heads would take your side choosing Harris over Rondo but, to chose Harris over Rose is totally insane. The scouts say he has the speed of Chris Paul and the size of Deron Williams. Everybody knows Derrick Rose is going to be a superstar but, I haven't heard anybody even say Devin Harris is going to be a superstar one time so far. So you do the math.


Right, I'm not saying Rose isn't going to be a superstar, at all. he will be. no doubt, but right now, hes not a better player than harris. I don't have any doubt he will be in the future, but right now, harris brings more to the table in terms of winning games than rose. This thread isn't about who would you build a franchise around, or who has the most potential, its about right now, whos performing at the highest level, and thats Harris. This thread has nothing to do with what will be, its about what currently is.

codes238
12-09-2008, 05:37 AM
Wait you say he is already the best yet you say the worst case is devin harris a player you say he is already better than

what
the
ef?

when people say best and worst case scenarios they are usually talking about how that player is gonna be when he hits his prime genius, especially if theyre talking about a rookie...

LakerzDQ
12-09-2008, 06:28 AM
Rajon Rondo
10.3 ppg
4.9 rpg
7.6 apg
2.3 spg
52% fg

Devin Harris
24.4 ppg
3.4 rpg
6.1 apg
1.4 spg
48% fg

The only category Harris is better is at scoring. That goes to show you that he's more of a combo guard. I'd take Rondo over Harris. The defense, the playmaking ability, the rebounding, the FG%. That's the type of point guard i would want running my team and, I'm sure 85% of the NBA coaches would to. I didn't even put up Derrick Rose's stats because there's no point. Anybody in their right mind would take Rose over Harris. Any coach, any GM, any scout. That's a no brainer. Just like picking Obama for president over McCain was a no brainer.

agreed. +14 points per game difference doesn't mean anything in the NBA. Especially not for a pointguard.

+1.5 assists, +1.5 rebounds, now THATS a significant difference.

but... what's so bad about McCain?

Faneik
12-09-2008, 06:31 AM
Calderon is the guy with the better play-making abilities, and that is what I look for in PG's.

Watch out for Rose though...He'll improve and be a complete PG.

Defensively, Rondo is the best.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 08:19 AM
agreed. +14 points per game difference doesn't mean anything in the NBA. Especially not for a pointguard.

+1.5 assists, +1.5 rebounds, now THATS a significant difference.

but... what's so bad about McCain?

I seen a report on CNN news that Bush had McCain in his back pocket and, if McCain would have won he would have been Bush's puppet because Bush got McCain involved in his oil business or something and, they said McCain owed him big so, basically if he got in as president the country would be in disarray for 4 more years. I guess McCain was a good guy and would have been a great president until he got involved with Bush. Now he's just like him.

JayW_1023
12-09-2008, 08:27 AM
I prefer dividing them to three:

Best passing: Calderon
Best scoring: Harris
Best defending: Rondo

Eventually it'll be Rose because he is adept at all three categories. But right now all three of the above have a case...it just depends on what aspect of the game weighs the most for the teams they play for.

The leagues top point guards are all in the West though...weird.

1. Paul 2. Williams 3. Billups 4. Parker 5. Kidd (right now I rate him slightly over Nash because he has a better half court game)

HoopsDrive
12-09-2008, 10:44 AM
I'd take Rose considering the long term. He's got some incredible potential and is playing at a very high level in his rookie season already. He is shooting nearly 50% from the field and not just on jump shots, he's been slashing and creating easy jays for his team mates as well. From the games I watched him play he looks like a combination of Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups, huge hoops he got and can only get better from here on.

If only for this season though, Calderon or Harris. I'd take Calderon if my team already has scorers and all I need is an above-average distributor. I'd take Harris if my team needs a scoring boost as he's just exploding this season posting incredible numbers.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 10:53 AM
I'd take Rose considering the long term. He's got some incredible potential and is playing at a very high level in his rookie season already. He is shooting nearly 50% from the field and not just on jump shots, he's been slashing and creating easy jays for his team mates as well. From the games I watched him play he looks like a combination of Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups, huge hoops he got and can only get better from here on.

If only for this season though, Calderon or Harris. I'd take Calderon if my team already has scorers and all I need is an above-average distributor. I'd take Harris if my team needs a scoring boost as he's just exploding this season posting incredible numbers.

Yeah but you could take Rondo and get scoring, distribution, rebounds, and nasty defense. That's how I think of it. Calderon is a good distributer like you said but other than that what else can he do for your team? Harris is a great scorer but, what else? See Rondo can do 4 things well. That's my thought process anyway. Right now I'd take Rondo but, in the long term I'd definitely take Derrick Rose without a question. Rondo and Rose just contribute in so many other ways that Calderon and Harris just aren't built for. You know?

theuuord
12-09-2008, 12:50 PM
BULLETIN: DEVIN HARRIS IS 13TH IN THE LEAGUE IN ASSISTS PER GAME, WHILE BEING THE TOP SCORER ON HIS TEAM.

REPEAT: DEVIN HARRIS IS 13TH IN THE NBA IN ASSISTS PER GAME, WHILE BEING THE TOP SCORER ON HIS TEAM.

The only players above him on the list that do the same are Chris Paul, Dwyane Wade, and LeBron James.

I'd say that's pretty a nice group to be joined with.


So please: stop saying Harris isn't a true PG because he can both score AND create shots for his teammates. Anyone who was watched Harris this season knows he can set up shots with no problem like a (vomit) "true" PG should.

Being able to do multiple things doesn't make you a worse player.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 12:53 PM
Yeah but you could take Rondo and get scoring, distribution, rebounds, and nasty defense. That's how I think of it. Calderon is a good distributer like you said but other than that what else can he do for your team? Harris is a great scorer but, what else? See Rondo can do 4 things well. That's my thought process anyway. Right now I'd take Rondo but, in the long term I'd definitely take Derrick Rose without a question. Rondo and Rose just contribute in so many other ways that Calderon and Harris just aren't built for. You know?

A great scorer, a great slasher, a good distributor, a great ballhandler, a player excellent at getting to the free throw line, a fair rebounder, a good defender, one of the fastest players in the league...

Morgan
12-09-2008, 01:11 PM
A great scorer, a great slasher, a good distributor, a great ballhandler, a player excellent at getting to the free throw line, a fair rebounder, a good defender, one of the fastest players in the league...

Rondo is better at every category you just mentioned except for a great scorer but, he could be an 17 ppg PG if he played for a mediocre team like Harris but, Rondo is a better slasher, a better passer, a way better ball handler, a better rebounder, and he's faster and, he gets to the free throw line a good amount. I'd rather have Rondo running the show on my team. Just look at it like this. If Rondo and Harris were on the same team and, were both in at the same time. Who would run the point and, who would play the two? Exactly and that's exactly why I say Rondo is a better PG. Don't get me wrong, I think Devin Harris could be a very good player in this league but, he's one of them guys like Delonte West. Everybody would like a player like that on their team but, not running the show. He's a player with no true position. He's a Monta Ellis / Delonte West type combo guard. Never will be an great player but, will always contribute.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:27 PM
Rondo is better at every category you just mentioned except for a great scorer but, he could be an 17 ppg PG if he played for a mediocre team like Harris but, Rondo is a better slasher, a better passer, a way better ball handler, a better rebounder, and he's faster and, he gets to the free throw line a good amount. I'd rather have Rondo running the show on my team. Just look at it like this. If Rondo and Harris were on the same team and, were both in at the same time. Who would run the point and, who would play the two? Exactly and that's exactly why I say Rondo is a better PG. Don't get me wrong, I think Devin Harris could be a very good player in this league but, he's one of them guys like Delonte West. Everybody would like a player like that on their team but, not running the show. He's a player with no true position. He's a Monta Ellis / Delonte West type combo guard. Never will be an great player but, will always contribute.

Rondo is a better rebounder at 1.5 per game.
A better assist man at - 1.5 a game.
Harris scores 14 more points per game.

When it comes down to it, who would you rather have on your team? The guy who gets you 3 rebounds and 3 assists more every two games, or the guy who scores 28 more points every two games?

I'm frankly surprised people put Rondo in the top 3. He's a good solid player, and could contribute on any NBA squad, but since the Celtics won the championship people have vastly overrated him.

Harris is clearly the #1 point guard. I'd say Calderon and Mo Williams are tied for number two, with Rondo and Rose coming after that. Rose will likely reach the 2 spot this year if he keeps this up, but he's only played at this level for 25% of one season, and I need to see sustained production from him.

NYK09
12-09-2008, 01:31 PM
Chris Duhon

Morgan
12-09-2008, 01:35 PM
Rondo is a better rebounder at 1.5 per game.
A better assist man at - 1.5 a game.
Harris scores 14 more points per game.

When it comes down to it, who would you rather have on your team? The guy who gets you 3 rebounds and 3 assists more every two games, or the guy who scores 28 more points every two games?

I'm frankly surprised people put Rondo in the top 3. He's a good solid player, and could contribute on any NBA squad, but since the Celtics won the championship people have vastly overrated him.

Harris is clearly the #1 point guard. I'd say Calderon and Mo Williams are tied for number two, with Rondo and Rose coming after that. Rose will likely reach the 2 spot this year if he keeps this up, but he's only played at this level for 25% of one season, and I need to see sustained production from him.


Rondo gets more rebounds, assists, steals, and he has a better FG % and he plays 8 minutes less a game than Harris does. I'd much rather have my PG be a great defender, great rebounder, and better playmaker than to be a scorer. That's like saying Marbury was better than Jason Kidd when they were in their primes because he scores more. Please dude. I'd take Rondo all day everyday over Harris.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 01:40 PM
You might have lost your credibility by just saying Mo Williams is the 2nd best PGin the Eastern Conference. I didn't read that the 1st time I read your post but, I just seen it and laughed so hard my girlfriend thought I was on drugs.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 01:40 PM
Rondo is a better rebounder at 1.5 per game.
A better assist man at - 1.5 a game.
Harris scores 14 more points per game.

When it comes down to it, who would you rather have on your team? The guy who gets you 3 rebounds and 3 assists more every two games, or the guy who scores 28 more points every two games?

I'm frankly surprised people put Rondo in the top 3. He's a good solid player, and could contribute on any NBA squad, but since the Celtics won the championship people have vastly overrated him.

Harris is clearly the #1 point guard. I'd say Calderon and Mo Williams are tied for number two, with Rondo and Rose coming after that. Rose will likely reach the 2 spot this year if he keeps this up, but he's only played at this level for 25% of one season, and I need to see sustained production from him.


Mo Williams? See you judge a point guard way different than I do man because to me Mo Williams is another combo guard type. You just judge PG's by how much they score it looks like and, that's not really the PG's job. He's supposed to run the offense and make plays for other playefs. Not bomb 3 pointers all game long. Mo Williams is probably the 6th or 7th best PG in the East. Definitely not #2 that's for damn sure.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Mo Williams? See you judge a point guard way different than I do man because to me Mo Williams is another combo guard type. You just judge PG's by how much they score it looks like and, that's not really the PG's job. He's supposed to run the offense and make plays for other playefs. Not bomb 3 pointers all game long. Mo Williams is probably the 6th or 7th best PG in the East. Definitely not #2 that's for damn sure.

Mo Williams has seen his stats decline this season because he's deferred to the best player in the universe. Any point guard in his position would have the same problem. Prior to that he'd put up seasons of 17-7 in Milwaukee with good efficiency. It's true that his stock might fall as the season goes on but as far as his track record goes I still give him the benefit of the doubt.

If that made you laugh so hard your girlfriend thinks you're on drugs... I'm not really sure what to tell you.



Rondo gets more rebounds, assists, steals, and he has a better FG % and he plays 8 minutes less a game than Harris does. I'd much rather have my PG be a great defender, great rebounder, and better playmaker than to be a scorer. That's like saying Marbury was better than Jason Kidd when they were in their primes because he scores more. Please dude. I'd take Rondo all day everyday over Harris.

So saying that Harris is better than Rondo is akin to saying Marbury was better than Kidd? In what alternate universe is this true? I want my point guard to help my team win games, regardless of how he does it. If that means he's great at everything like Kidd was, then yes, I want Kidd. If that means he's good at everything and scores 24 points a game, then yes, I want Harris.

LOL @ comparing Harris to Marbury and Rondo to Kidd. Your girlfriend may be on to something.
Rondo is a very good point guard, like I said, and there's no way I'd discredit him. But don't put him on a pedestal and compare him to one of the greatest point guards to ever live. That's honestly one of the more ridiculous things I've ever seen.

Iodine
12-09-2008, 01:55 PM
He dosnt understand logic just give up

theuuord
12-09-2008, 02:00 PM
Let's compare Rondo and Harris for a minute, at a more advanced level than these basic stats.

Rondo:
.567 TS%, .536 eFG%, 9.1 Reb%, 39.4 Ast%, 3.8 Stl%, 0.2 Blk%, 20.0 Tov%, 115 ORtg using 16.6% of possessions, for a 19.3 PER

Harris:
.618 TS%, .513 eFG%, 5.8 Reb%, 31.6 Ast%, 2.0 Stl%, 0.1 Blk%, 10.0 Tov%, 128 ORtg using 28.3% of possessions, for a 27.5 PER

You know, if you need any help deciphering what these mean, I'll let you know, but for the most part I think it's pretty obvious who comes out better. Rondo is a slightly better rebounder, assist-mate and stealer (although a fair amount of the assist rate is due to his teammates). Harris is an absolutely dominant complete offensive force, producing 128 points per 100 possessions he uses while using way more possessions. If Rondo had to carry a similar offensive load his numbers would drag far behind. There is no comparison.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 02:04 PM
Mo Williams has seen his stats decline this season because he's deferred to the best player in the universe. Any point guard in his position would have the same problem. Prior to that he'd put up seasons of 17-7 in Milwaukee with good efficiency. It's true that his stock might fall as the season goes on but as far as his track record goes I still give him the benefit of the doubt.

If that made you laugh so hard your girlfriend thinks you're on drugs... I'm not really sure what to tell you.



So saying that Harris is better than Rondo is akin to saying Marbury was better than Kidd? In what alternate universe is this true? I want my point guard to help my team win games, regardless of how he does it. If that means he's great at everything like Kidd was, then yes, I want Kidd. If that means he's good at everything and scores 24 points a game, then yes, I want Harris.

LOL @ comparing Harris to Marbury and Rondo to Kidd. Your girlfriend may be on to something.
Rondo is a very good point guard, like I said, and there's no way I'd discredit him. But don't put him on a pedestal and compare him to one of the greatest point guards to ever live. That's honestly one of the more ridiculous things I've ever seen.


I'm not comparing him to Kidd. I'm just saying they have similar games. I would never compare anyone to Kidd because I honestly think he's the greatest PG ever to play in the NBA. I like him better than Magic or Isiah. I'm just saying Rondo plays similar to Kidd. He's like a poor mans Jason Kidd. You say you'd take Devin Harris because he scores 24 PPG and does everything else great but, that's were I disagree. He's not a great defender. He's a decent defender. He's not a great playmaker, he's a decent playmaker. He's not a great rebounder, he's a decent rebounder, and he doesn't shoot great either. Rondo is a great defender, a very good rebounder, and a very good distributer and, he's so fast that he can get into the lane on any PG in basketball and he doesn't need picks to blow by point guards and get to the hoop. I like Harris. I said the Nets got the better of that deal because Kidd is aging and, Harris is a good young player but, I'd rather have Rondo running the point for my team. I'd take Rose 1st, then Rondo, then Harris out of the eastern conference point guards. You can have your opinions and, I can have mine but, I'm sticking with my decision. There's absolutely nothing anyone can say to make me say that Devin Harris is a better point guard than Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo.

rosesbulls
12-09-2008, 02:14 PM
Rondo is better at every category you just mentioned except for a great scorer but, he could be an 17 ppg PG if he played for a mediocre team like Harris but, Rondo is a better slasher, a better passer, a way better ball handler, a better rebounder, and he's faster and, he gets to the free throw line a good amount. I'd rather have Rondo running the show on my team. Just look at it like this. If Rondo and Harris were on the same team and, were both in at the same time. Who would run the point and, who would play the two? Exactly and that's exactly why I say Rondo is a better PG. Don't get me wrong, I think Devin Harris could be a very good player in this league but, he's one of them guys like Delonte West. Everybody would like a player like that on their team but, not running the show. He's a player with no true position. He's a Monta Ellis / Delonte West type combo guard. Never will be an great player but, will always contribute.

Better slasher? Faster? Harris is 1 of the fastest players in the league and defenders have to stay honest when defending him. Of course Rondo assists would go up whe playing with top 3 big man, top 3 pure shooter, top 10 overall player... Any player would see his assists go up.

Rondo's fg% is higher because he knows he can't take medium shot or 3pt so he doesn't and only shoots when he gets a open lane which is easy to get sense you have to guard KG out of the paint alot.

A player scoring almost 25 ppg 6 assists you wouldn't want running the show. Just a good contributor. Much rather have a guy having 10/7 then 24/6 :rolleyes:. I love how you compared him to Delonte west a 10/5 guy to Harris a 25/6 guy very close. He is closer to AI then Delonte West, alot close actually.

The last bit was my favorite, What will Rondo be a 30/20 player with 10 rebounds a game? 24/6 is more then just a good contributor and is a great player.
and Harris is way better at getting to the ft line AND hits them over 80% compared to Rondo who hits them at a big man percentage level.

What do you think Rondo will be and what are your expectations of great player if 24/6 at the age of 25 and 4 years pro isn't a great player?

theuuord
12-09-2008, 02:17 PM
There's absolutely nothing anyone can say to make me say that Devin Harris is a better point guard than Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo.

Just as an aside, this is such an interesting statement to see people make. Because it gets made all the time, and it only gets made when evidence is shown to counter the belief and it can't be properly defended.

And I'm curious.
If Rondo is a very good distributor, shouldn't he have more assists than 7.6, being that he plays with the best three-man tandem in the league?
His assist percentage is only 8 percentage points higher than Harris's, and Harris only has one other consistent scoring option to pass to on his team.

You make all these statements but you show no proof to your reasoning.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 02:31 PM
Just as an aside, this is such an interesting statement to see people make. Because it gets made all the time, and it only gets made when evidence is shown to counter the belief and it can't be properly defended.

And I'm curious.
If Rondo is a very good distributor, shouldn't he have more assists than 7.6, being that he plays with the best three-man tandem in the league?
His assist percentage is only 8 percentage points higher than Harris's, and Harris only has one other consistent scoring option to pass to on his team.

You make all these statements but you show no proof to your reasoning.

If Rondo played for the Nets he would average 9 or more assists per game. If you watched all the Celtics games you would see that Paul Pierce plays point foward a lot of the time and racks up assists and, I've seen Rondo hit KG with a pass when KG could have easily scored under the hoop but, he'll kick it to Perkins or whoevers slashing to the basket. There's 3 playmakers in the Celtics starting lineup which takes away from his assists and, he only averages 30 minutes per game. If he was on the Clippers or T-Wolves he'd be playing close to 40 minutes per game and, he'd be a 18 PPG 9 APG 7 RPG 3 SPG player.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 02:34 PM
Let's compare Rondo and Harris for a minute, at a more advanced level than these basic stats.

Rondo:
.567 TS%, .536 eFG%, 9.1 Reb%, 39.4 Ast%, 3.8 Stl%, 0.2 Blk%, 20.0 Tov%, 115 ORtg using 16.6% of possessions, for a 19.3 PER

Harris:
.618 TS%, .513 eFG%, 5.8 Reb%, 31.6 Ast%, 2.0 Stl%, 0.1 Blk%, 10.0 Tov%, 128 ORtg using 28.3% of possessions, for a 27.5 PER

You know, if you need any help deciphering what these mean, I'll let you know, but for the most part I think it's pretty obvious who comes out better. Rondo is a slightly better rebounder, assist-mate and stealer (although a fair amount of the assist rate is due to his teammates). Harris is an absolutely dominant complete offensive force, producing 128 points per 100 possessions he uses while using way more possessions. If Rondo had to carry a similar offensive load his numbers would drag far behind. There is no comparison.

you missed this.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 02:35 PM
If Rondo played for the Nets he would average 9 or more assists per game. If you watched all the Celtics games you would see that Paul Pierce plays point foward a lot of the time and racks up assists and, I've seen Rondo hit KG with a pass when KG could have easily scored under the hoop but, he'll kick it to Perkins or whoevers slashing to the basket. There's 3 playmakers in the Celtics starting lineup which takes away from his assists and, he only averages 30 minutes per game. If he was on the Clippers or T-Wolves he'd be playing close to 40 minutes per game and, he'd be a 18 PPG 9 APG 7 RPG 3 SPG player.

Is this a serious analysis?

Go ahead. Show me these plays. How many times has it happened? How much of a difference to Rondo's assist total would that be? I'm sure it has happened, but what is the cost?
Don't just say analysis. Show analysis.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 02:37 PM
And by the way... Allen, Pierce and Garnett are all under 4 assists per game. Allen and Garnett are both under 3. They're not taking assists away from anyone.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 02:52 PM
you missed this.

I've already said I don't care what statistics you throw at me. Go back to what I said 3 pages ago. If Rajon Rondo and Devin Harris were on the same team and they were both in the lineup at the same time, who would be the PG and who would be the 2-guard. Case closed. Devin Harris is not a pure point guard. If Harris was on the Celtics do you think he would be averaging 24 PPG. He'd be averaging 15 and his assists would drop down to about 4 per game and, if Rondo was on the Nets he'd be somewhere around a 17 PPG and 8 or 9 APG. It's were Devin Harris is playing that makes him score that much. He didn't score like that in Dallas nor would he in Boston. There's no doubt that Devin Harris has skills. He was taken #5 overall in the draft for a reason but, I think for a guy picked as high as Harris and a guy picked as low as Rondo that Rajon has progressed more in 3 years than Harris has in 4. I'd love to have Devin Harris and Rondo on the same team but, if I had to choose one it would be Rajon Rondo all day everyday.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 02:54 PM
And by the way... Allen, Pierce and Garnett are all under 4 assists per game. Allen and Garnett are both under 3. They're not taking assists away from anyone.

Rondo only plays 30 minutes per game.

rosesbulls
12-09-2008, 03:23 PM
If he isn't even good enough to play pg the entire game while he is out there and in crunch time how can he be the best in the east. He is the most overrated player in the east right now other then maybe AI.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 03:33 PM
If he isn't even good enough to play pg the entire game while he is out there and in crunch time how can he be the best in the east. He is the most overrated player in the east right now other then maybe AI.

I don't know what your talking about but, Rondo is out there in the 4th quarter of every close game. The problem is the Celtics are 20-2 and, some games aren't that close. Doc Rivers isn't stupid. He's not going to overplay his players in blowout games. Rondo has 44 assists in his last 4 games. He gets better and better everytime I see him play.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 03:42 PM
He dosnt understand logic just give up


you missed this.


Is this a serious analysis?

Go ahead. Show me these plays. How many times has it happened? How much of a difference to Rondo's assist total would that be? I'm sure it has happened, but what is the cost?
Don't just say analysis. Show analysis.


Listen to Iodine. This kid doesn't listen to logic or reason. His entire basis is that Harris isn't a pure pg, so therefore he can't be the best pg. Which is absolutely the dumbest thing in the world. You can show stats and facts all day, but a pg who scores is just not a pg in his book. You can't argue with sheer idiocy. Don't bother theuuord, its not worth the time and frustration trying to explain basketbal to kids who don't get it.

rosesbulls
12-09-2008, 03:42 PM
I don't know what your talking about but, Rondo is out there in the 4th quarter of every close game. The problem is the Celtics are 20-2 and, some games aren't that close. Doc Rivers isn't stupid. He's not going to overplay his players in blowout games. Rondo has 44 assists in his last 4 games. He gets better and better everytime I see him play.

You said it your self Paul pierce handles the point sometimes when Rondo is out there. It's really just to avoid wasting time getting Rondo the ball to dribble it up court just to pass it off to KG down low or Pierce waiting for the ball.

I don't know why Miami (off topic) and Celtic fan can't listen to reason, Rondo isn't a top pg. It isn't a coincidences that only bias views are supporting Rondo as best in the east. He is a good pg with average talent and average skills. a solid starter. He has limited talent not overwhelmingly fast not great play maker, weak jump shot that will make it harder for him to drive, Rondo isn't a top pg and at best he will be a Brevin Knight without the injury problems which is pretty great but not elite or top pg material.

Macedonian
12-09-2008, 03:45 PM
This is my list:

1. Devin Harris (maybe he should be considered as a SG)
2. Jose Calderon
3. Chris Duhon
4. Derrick Rose
5. Mo Williams
6. Mike Bibby
7. Rajon Rando
8. TJ Ford
9. Andre Miller
10. Ramon Sessions

ink
12-09-2008, 03:47 PM
Listen to Iodine. This kid doesn't listen to logic or reason. His entire basis is that Harris isn't a pure pg, so therefore he can't be the best pg. Which is absolutely the dumbest thing in the world. You can show stats and facts all day, but a pg who scores is just not a pg in his book. You can't argue with sheer idiocy. Don't bother theuuord, its not worth the time and frustration trying to explain basketbal to kids who don't get it.

I respect your posts superkegger but I don't think you're being fair there. His posts aren't "sheer idiocy". He just has a different way of looking at PGs than a few of you do. I have a strong preference for pure, playmaking PGs myself so I can see where he's coming from.

NYMetros
12-09-2008, 03:49 PM
I'll go with Rajon Rondo because he is the best defensive player out of those guys, and if you have a capable scorer along side him, Rondo will keep him happy.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 03:53 PM
I respect your posts superkegger but I don't think you're being fair there. His posts aren't "sheer idiocy". He just has a different way of looking at PGs than a few of you do. I have a strong preference for pure, playmaking PGs myself so I can see where he's coming from.

its fine to prefer pure pgs, but to make it out that devin harris is less of a pg because he isn't a pure pg is indeed moronic. Not being a pure pg doesn't make Devin Harris any less of a PG. Just like Dirk not being a traditional PF doesn't make him any less of a PF. Harris is fulfilling his role on the nets and at a very high level, and they're winning because of it, but because he's not a pure pg, that makes him less of a pg, I don't think so.

ink
12-09-2008, 03:55 PM
its fine to prefer pure pgs, but to make it out that devin harris is less of a pg because he isn't a pure pg is indeed moronic. Not being a pure pg doesn't make Devin Harris any less of a PG. Just like Dirk not being a traditional PF doesn't make him any less of a PF. Harris is fulfilling his role on the nets and at a very high level, and they're winning because of it, but because he's not a pure pg, that makes him less of a pg, I don't think so.

Moronic is an insult. That's my point. He's made some good arguments right through the thread. That's his belief. Your belief is different. We've had this kind of discussion on PSD before about AI and Arenas too. There are people who strongly prefer pure PGs. I value them more than combo guards. If a person wants to make the distinction between pure PGs and combo guards, let him. It's not moronic.

btw, huge props to Lawrence Frank for getting the most out of Harris.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:05 PM
Moronic is an insult. That's my point. He's made some good arguments right through the thread. That's his belief. Your belief is different. We've had this kind of discussion on PSD before about AI and Arenas too. There are people who strongly prefer pure PGs. I value them more than combo guards. If a person wants to make the distinction between pure PGs and combo guards, let him. It's not moronic.

i don't have a problem with making the distinction, but to diminish what Devin Harris is a PG because he's not a pure pg is dumb in my book. That would be like me saying I'd take Devin Harris over Chris Paul, because I prefer PG's who have the ability to score more. That would be stupid, because Chris Paul is clearly the better player. He's devoiding what Devin Harris is as a PG, because he's not a "pure PG". To me, that is moronic.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 04:05 PM
Moronic is an insult. That's my point. He's made some good arguments right through the thread. That's his belief. Your belief is different. We've had this kind of discussion on PSD before about AI and Arenas too. There are people who strongly prefer pure PGs. I value them more than combo guards. If a person wants to make the distinction between pure PGs and combo guards, let him. It's not moronic.

btw, huge props to Lawrence Frank for getting the most out of Harris.

Thanks Ink

mCWitta
12-09-2008, 04:06 PM
JOSE CALDERON sure he is not playing tops right now but he is nursing his hammy. when healthy he has shown he can not only shoot the ball with great accuracy but who takes better care of the basketball than him

ink
12-09-2008, 04:15 PM
i don't have a problem with making the distinction, but to diminish what Devin Harris is a PG because he's not a pure pg is dumb in my book. That would be like me saying I'd take Devin Harris over Chris Paul, because I prefer PG's who have the ability to score more. That would be stupid, because Chris Paul is clearly the better player. He's devoiding what Devin Harris is as a PG, because he's not a "pure PG". To me, that is moronic.

If it was moronic, pure PGs wouldn't be valued so highly by some coaches.

ink
12-09-2008, 04:19 PM
Looking at that list, it's clear that the PG situation in the East is completely in flux. It's also clear that the class of the field is in the West because none of those players listed are fully proven, complete or completely developed. There are some good, but not great players at the position in the East.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:22 PM
If it was moronic, pure PGs wouldn't be valued so highly by some coaches.

Some coaches do value them highly yes, but that doesn't make pgs with a big more of a scoring mindset any less of a pg. Chauncey and Parker are both Finals MVP's and what people would call "offensive minded pgs". Clearly there are preferences as to what kind of pg you want for the type of system you run, but that doesn't mean guys like Devin Harris are any less of a PG. He's a leader on that team, he's clutch, and he's winning games. He sets up the offense and runs it well, and makes plays for others as well as for himself. He's not a pure pg, but that doesn't diminish his ability to play the PG position.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 04:29 PM
Listen to Iodine. This kid doesn't listen to logic or reason. His entire basis is that Harris isn't a pure pg, so therefore he can't be the best pg. Which is absolutely the dumbest thing in the world. You can show stats and facts all day, but a pg who scores is just not a pg in his book. You can't argue with sheer idiocy. Don't bother theuuord, its not worth the time and frustration trying to explain basketbal to kids who don't get it.

lol. maybe I'm a sucker for punishment, but I feel that people have to listen to reason eventually.......... we hope.

I'm also very interested in how people respond psychologically to different stimuli in arguments, which is why I was so intrigued by the "there's no way anyone can convince me" statement... which you always see in that context.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 04:30 PM
JOSE CALDERON sure he is not playing tops right now but he is nursing his hammy. when healthy he has shown he can not only shoot the ball with great accuracy but who takes better care of the basketball than him

Umm, considering that his turnover rate is way higher than Harris's... I'm gonna go with... Harris?

Morgan
12-09-2008, 04:31 PM
If it was moronic, pure PGs wouldn't be valued so highly by some coaches.

I made that same point last night. I said 75% of scouts, coaches, gm's or managers would rather have a pure point guard more than a combo guard and, I said that's why you never hear Allen Iverson's name in the top point guards in basketball category and, this kid just kept on insulting me. I played division 1 college ball for Holy Cross for 4 years so, I know a little bit about the game of basketball. I'm not saying I know it all when it comes to basketball. I'm no Bill Russel or Jerry West but, I know what I'm talking about and I don't need to be called a moron because I agree with most coaches and, would rather have a pure point guard any day.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 04:32 PM
Moronic is an insult. That's my point. He's made some good arguments right through the thread. That's his belief. Your belief is different. We've had this kind of discussion on PSD before about AI and Arenas too. There are people who strongly prefer pure PGs. I value them more than combo guards. If a person wants to make the distinction between pure PGs and combo guards, let him. It's not moronic.

btw, huge props to Lawrence Frank for getting the most out of Harris.

Here's the thing though: Devin Harris is a point guard. He's a point guard that can score, but he's still a point guard. He's got great ballhandling skills, very good court awareness, good passing ability, and he's fast as lightning. He's got all the skills you want in a point guard - he's just a little taller than average, and can shoot.
That doesn't make him less of a "pure point guard," that just makes him a really really good point guard.

If Harris was 6'1 and scored 13 points per game people would call him a "true point guard" and rate him higher. That's what's so mind-boggling about this whole thing.

ink
12-09-2008, 04:38 PM
Some coaches do value them highly yes, but that doesn't make pgs with a big more of a scoring mindset any less of a pg. Chauncey and Parker are both Finals MVP's and what people would call "offensive minded pgs". Clearly there are preferences as to what kind of pg you want for the type of system you run, but that doesn't mean guys like Devin Harris are any less of a PG. He's a leader on that team, he's clutch, and he's winning games. He sets up the offense and runs it well, and makes plays for others as well as for himself. He's not a pure pg, but that doesn't diminish his ability to play the PG position.

It's a balancing act. If Harris (and Frank) can continue to find the balance between playmaking and scoring, they'll have a success on their hands. When that balance isn't achieved that's when you start to see the examples that some of us can't stand to watch: Marbury, James, Ford, even Iverson. There are two distinct ways of looking at the position. I strongly prefer the pure variety because I really can't stand what happens to the game when the scoring PG loses his balance and connection with his teammates. What I'm saying is that with the scoring PG you have a much greater risk of that happening. It kills the game IMO, and it has been especially bad in the last 10 years. Ball-hogitis is a condition that scoring PGs risk contracting at any moment. ;) Some are just more susceptible to the affliction than others.

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:39 PM
lol. maybe I'm a sucker for punishment, but I feel that people have to listen to reason eventually.......... we hope.

I'm also very interested in how people respond psychologically to different stimuli in arguments, which is why I was so intrigued by the "there's no way anyone can convince me" statement... which you always see in that context.

Well we're on an internet forum, its pretty easy for people to simply "walk away" from an argument, or stick to their guns, since there's no actual confrontation. You rarely see people admit wrongs and change their point of view.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 04:40 PM
Here's the thing though: Devin Harris is a point guard. He's a point guard that can score, but he's still a point guard. He's got great ballhandling skills, very good court awareness, good passing ability, and he's fast as lightning. He's got all the skills you want in a point guard - he's just a little taller than average, and can shoot.
That doesn't make him less of a "pure point guard," that just makes him a really really good point guard.

If Harris was 6'1 and scored 13 points per game people would call him a "true point guard" and rate him higher. That's what's so mind-boggling about this whole thing.

He was a SG in college and, was a combo guard in Dallas. This is his 1st year playing the PG position full time and, you can notice a difference between a pure PG and Devin Harris and, if you can't notice the difference than maybe you don't know half of what you think you know.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 04:40 PM
It's a balancing act. If Harris (and Frank) can continue to find the balance between playmaking and scoring, they'll have a success on their hands. When that balance isn't achieved that's when you start to see the examples that some of us can't stand to watch: Marbury, James, Ford, even Iverson. There are two distinct ways of looking at the position. I strongly prefer the pure variety because I really can't stand what happens to the game when the scoring PG loses his balance and connection with his teammates. What I'm saying is that with the scoring PG you have a much greater risk of that happening. It kills the game IMO, and it has been especially bad in the last 10 years. Ball-hogitis is a condition that scoring PGs risk contracting at any moment. ;) Some are just more susceptible to the affliction than others.

Harris has shown no signs of ballhogitis though so far. He's played entirely within the team system of dribble-drive offense and complements Carter and the bigs very well. There has never been any indication that Harris is out for himself only, damn the team.

Harris is a pure point guard in that sense. He can just do that and more, which is why us Nets fans are so excited to have him.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 04:45 PM
He was a SG in college and, was a combo guard in Dallas. This is his 1st year playing the PG position full time and, you can notice a difference between a pure PG and Devin Harris and, if you can't notice the difference than maybe you don't know half of what you think you know.

Your entire argument has been rife with these kinds of statements. "Harris does this, and if you think otherwise you're wrong." I have yet to see one credible piece of evidence from you.

For instance, check out this article (I'll bold the important parts):

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/01/10/spt_spthoop1a.html


Badger mania

Wisconsin fans have caught onto to something going on in Madison, Wis. The Badgers are winning, and under coach Bo Ryan, they're going to keep winning.

For the first time since Kohl Center opened in 1998, Wisconsin's home arena sold out before the season began. Then the No. 21 Badgers backed it up by starting 10-2 and establishing themselves as a Big Ten title favorite.

Since Ryan took over in 2002, the Badgers have shared the Big Ten title and won it outright in 2003. Ryan was the Big Ten Coach of the Year in 2002 and 2003. But Wisconsin was picked to finish third in the league this season even with most of last year's team returning, including Big Ten preseason player of the year point guard Devin Harris.

"Well, we hadn't done that well in the conference until a couple years ago," Ryan said. "You have to do that a few times before people start to expect it."

The Badgers host Big Ten preseason favorite Michigan State at noon today.

"People are excited about how the guys are doing," Ryan said. "What's really great about Madison is that people really support sports. But never to this extent has men's basketball been supported like it is now."

Just wait until Wisconsin is playing at full health. Starting forward Alando Tucker(cq) has been bothered by a foot injury, causing him to miss eight games and removing a powerful inside presence from Wisconsin's attack. Harris, meanwhile, has been the catalyst from the start, leading the Big Ten in assists and taking charge of the team on the court.

"He's a player, but he's like a coach on the floor," Ryan said. "You can see he's really thinking about the game as it's in progress."

Not only is he referred to as a POINT GUARD, he is called a "coach on the floor" by his own coach and at this point was leading the big 10 in assists. How many players that are not point guards get that distinction?
Very, very few.

I refer you to my previous statements: Harris does do all the things that a "pure" PG does. He just also can score very, very well. And I fail to see why that should be a demerit to his abilities.

The Nets were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league this year. Hollinger had them at 27-55. SI had them as the worst team in the East. The Nets are 11-5 with Harris in the lineup. They are 0-3 without him.
No matter how you slice it, when Harris plays the point the Nets have been winning games. Not only that, but he has turned into a primary option.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 04:46 PM
Well we're on an internet forum, its pretty easy for people to simply "walk away" from an argument, or stick to their guns, since there's no actual confrontation. You rarely see people admit wrongs and change their point of view.

That's what makes these arguments so much sweeter. I like a challenge.:smoking:

superkegger
12-09-2008, 04:48 PM
I made that same point last night. I said 75% of scouts, coaches, gm's or managers would rather have a pure point guard more than a combo guard and, I said that's why you never hear Allen Iverson's name in the top point guards in basketball category and, this kid just kept on insulting me. I played division 1 college ball for Holy Cross for 4 years so, I know a little bit about the game of basketball. I'm not saying I know it all when it comes to basketball. I'm no Bill Russel or Jerry West but, I know what I'm talking about and I don't need to be called a moron because I agree with most coaches and, would rather have a pure point guard any day.

Allen Iverson is a completely different case. He truly is a sg, who plays sg, but has pg size and because of his defensive liablity, often ends up at pg because there's nothing else to do about it.

I completely disagree that 85%, which is what you threw out last night, which is now 75% of coaches, scouts or gms would take rondo over harris.

And good for you for playing ball at Holy Cross. That however doesn't mean dick to me. A lot of people who play ball still suck as coaches, gms and the like. MJ was a great player, perhaps the greatest, and he seems to not know dick about it from a managers stand point.

I would just like to see this evidence that NBA coaches and GM's would take Rondo over Harris. You're basing that on your own opinion, not on facts. Harris is the better overall player, and I have a hard time believing teams would pass on that for an inferior player who plays a more "pure" pg.


It's a balancing act. If Harris (and Frank) can continue to find the balance between playmaking and scoring, they'll have a success on their hands. When that balance isn't achieved that's when you start to see the examples that some of us can't stand to watch: Marbury, James, Ford, even Iverson. There are two distinct ways of looking at the position. I strongly prefer the pure variety because I really can't stand what happens to the game when the scoring PG loses his balance and connection with his teammates. What I'm saying is that with the scoring PG you have a much greater risk of that happening. It kills the game IMO, and it has been especially bad in the last 10 years. Ball-hogitis is a condition that scoring PGs risk contracting at any moment. ;) Some are just more susceptible to the affliction than others.

While I agree with you on the balance, the question is who is the best pg in the east, right now. Not who if they keep up the balance will be better, or in the future will be the best, or who is the best at being a pure pg. Who is, right now, playing the best basketball? And to me, its a no brainer that that is Devin Harris. The stats, the wins, the clutch ability, the leadership, the playmaking, its all there. He is playing on a very high level right now, and whether he keeps it up isn't the question being asked.

Faneik
12-09-2008, 04:52 PM
It's a balancing act. If Harris (and Frank) can continue to find the balance between playmaking and scoring, they'll have a success on their hands. When that balance isn't achieved that's when you start to see the examples that some of us can't stand to watch: Marbury, James, Ford, even Iverson. There are two distinct ways of looking at the position. I strongly prefer the pure variety because I really can't stand what happens to the game when the scoring PG loses his balance and connection with his teammates. What I'm saying is that with the scoring PG you have a much greater risk of that happening. It kills the game IMO, and it has been especially bad in the last 10 years. Ball-hogitis is a condition that scoring PGs risk contracting at any moment. ;) Some are just more susceptible to the affliction than others.

For sure.

I saw the Pistons@Knicks game, Iverson spends too much seconds on offense using his dribble trying to get by his defende. 1st attempt he didn't pass by him, he went back, asked for a pick and tried again. Meanwhile, the other 3 Pistons, where just staying put, just watching what Iverson was trying to do.

I'm also one of those guys that prefers a system-oriented PG, that has passing-1st mentality. No breach? Re-set. Try it again...Team effort, everybody moving, changing positions, setting picks, etc.

rosesbulls
12-09-2008, 04:53 PM
I made that same point last night. I said 75% of scouts, coaches, gm's or managers would rather have a pure point guard more than a combo guard and, I said that's why you never hear Allen Iverson's name in the top point guards in basketball category and, this kid just kept on insulting me. I played division 1 college ball for Holy Cross for 4 years so, I know a little bit about the game of basketball. I'm not saying I know it all when it comes to basketball. I'm no Bill Russel or Jerry West but, I know what I'm talking about and I don't need to be called a moron because I agree with most coaches and, would rather have a pure point guard any day.

Actually many people do until this season were he is playing horribly and he has never had a good fg% compared to Harris's 49%.

Most people would rather have a pure pg at the same level of a pg with a little bit more scoring mentality. BUT Rondo and Harris aren't at the same level there at two completely differnt levels at this point in the season and although Rondo plays better but he also plays way worse offense. If Harris was on the Celtics he would average 20/8 my prediction if Rondo was on NJ he would average 15/6. On NJ there is only 1 other top option compared to Celtics 3. At the same time in NJ he would get more playing time and shots. BUT Rondo's shooting % would go down while Harris's went up. Also most of Rondos made jump shots are wide open so if teams start to commmit to defending him more unless he hits his Jumper his stats could just as easily go sideways to down in scoring and reason why it would go diagonally is because he'll take more shots but I still think that his points will go up but they could go down on NJ. Rondo is a solid starter but because he has won a championship he is now a star.

That being said 20/8/3>15/6/5 Harris has pg skills but just has to score more because if he doesn't they don't win. There is a reason NJ is overachieving at this point in the season and his name is Devin Harris.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 06:12 PM
Your entire argument has been rife with these kinds of statements. "Harris does this, and if you think otherwise you're wrong." I have yet to see one credible piece of evidence from you.

For instance, check out this article (I'll bold the important parts):

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/01/10/spt_spthoop1a.html



Not only is he referred to as a POINT GUARD, he is called a "coach on the floor" by his own coach and at this point was leading the big 10 in assists. How many players that are not point guards get that distinction?
Very, very few.

I refer you to my previous statements: Harris does do all the things that a "pure" PG does. He just also can score very, very well. And I fail to see why that should be a demerit to his abilities.

The Nets were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league this year. Hollinger had them at 27-55. SI had them as the worst team in the East. The Nets are 11-5 with Harris in the lineup. They are 0-3 without him.
No matter how you slice it, when Harris plays the point the Nets have been winning games. Not only that, but he has turned into a primary option.


I can remember the day he was drafted and all the ESPN analysts were saying "is he going to play the 1 or is he going to be a 2 guard". He's been a combo guard forever. A damn good combo guard but, a combo guard all the same. I personally would rather have my offense running through Rajon Rondo then Harris. It's my opinion and you guys keep showing me stats that don't even make me think about saying Devin Harris is the better PG so, just leave it at that please. This is a poll and, nobody is going to change anybodys mind by continuing to talk about it. Some people like Rondo, some people like Harris, some people like Calderon, and some people like Rose. No matter what you say it's still your opinion. There's no facts that prove that one player is a better PG than the other. It's all opinions so, stop getting so mad about it. I'm not bent outta shape like you. I'm sticking with Rondo as the better PG and that's that.

theuuord
12-09-2008, 06:20 PM
I can remember the day he was drafted and all the ESPN analysts were saying "is he going to play the 1 or is he going to be a 2 guard". He's been a combo guard forever. A damn good combo guard but, a combo guard all the same. I personally would rather have my offense running through Rajon Rondo then Harris. It's my opinion and you guys keep showing me stats that don't even make me think about saying Devin Harris is the better PG so, just leave it at that please. This is a poll and, nobody is going to change anybodys mind by continuing to talk about it. Some people like Rondo, some people like Harris, some people like Calderon, and some people like Rose. No matter what you say it's still your opinion. There's no facts that prove that one player is a better PG than the other. It's all opinions so, stop getting so mad about it. I'm not bent outta shape like you. I'm sticking with Rondo as the better PG and that's that.

lol don't confuse intelligence with anger.

The difference is that one of us is providing evidence, and the other one is providing nothing.
ESPN analysts say lots of things. It's their job to keep discussion alive to keep viewers interested. That's another discussion though.

You're not able to rebut any of my points because you're incorrect. It's that simple. I'm not saying that out of anger, or because I'm "bent outta shape," or because I have some misplaced sense of superiority. It's just honesty.

The reason we have opinions is because they are opinions we can back up. If you can't support an opinion with facts or reasoning, you have no real reason to hold it. It's clinging to an untrue theory. It happens sometimes.

If I see any real evidence from you that could support why Rondo is superior to Harris, I will gladly debate it with you. (And concede any points I may be incorrect on.) But literally you have done nothing but stare proof in the face and pretend it does not exist.


Edit:
I forgot to add:

This is a poll and, nobody is going to change anybodys mind by continuing to talk about it.

Changing your mind is the best way of figuring out whether or not you still have one.
-Taylor Mali

I've changed my mind on lots of things. It's not a sign of weakness to research and understand. It's a universal human experience.

Morgan
12-09-2008, 07:23 PM
lol don't confuse intelligence with anger.

The difference is that one of us is providing evidence, and the other one is providing nothing.
ESPN analysts say lots of things. It's their job to keep discussion alive to keep viewers interested. That's another discussion though.

You're not able to rebut any of my points because you're incorrect. It's that simple. I'm not saying that out of anger, or because I'm "bent outta shape," or because I have some misplaced sense of superiority. It's just honesty.

The reason we have opinions is because they are opinions we can back up. If you can't support an opinion with facts or reasoning, you have no real reason to hold it. It's clinging to an untrue theory. It happens sometimes.

If I see any real evidence from you that could support why Rondo is superior to Harris, I will gladly debate it with you. (And concede any points I may be incorrect on.) But literally you have done nothing but stare proof in the face and pretend it does not exist.


Edit:
I forgot to add:


Changing your mind is the best way of figuring out whether or not you still have one.
-Taylor Mali

I've changed my mind on lots of things. It's not a sign of weakness to research and understand. It's a universal human experience.

What did you show me? That the only category that Devin Harris is better than Rajon Rondo is scoring and Rondo plays less minutes per game and outrebounds Harris, has more dime's than Harris, has more steals than Harris. Your just mad because nobody agrees with you. If Devin Harris was on the Celtics he would not start of Rondo I guarantee you that and, that was hilarious when you said that if the Bulls had Devin Harris they would have never drafted Derrick Rose. At 1st I thought that was a joke but, then you continued talking and, I realized it wasn't a joke because your clueless. Go in the Bulls forum and start a thread that says what you said and, they'll laugh you right outta there. Relax dude. Your New Jersey Nets aren't winning anything anytime in the near future so, watch Devin Harris get booted out of the playoffs in the 1st round for the next 5 years. You'll see who is the starting PG in the All Star game this year. It might not Rondo but, it most definitely will not be Devin Harris. Mark my words. Alright guys I'm going to get laid. Maybe you should try it sometime. It beats blogging in the PSD Forums.

La11
06-01-2009, 09:46 PM
john wall..... what!!!!!?!?!?!? lol

AIverson
06-01-2009, 09:48 PM
If Iverson and Arenas count, I would say them.

Devin Harris by far if not.

theuuord
06-01-2009, 10:21 PM
lol i forgot all about this. i never even saw that last comment by morgan.

omgz i guess he like, has sex, with girls and stuff.
I wonder what that's like.

:rolleyes:

Angel
06-01-2009, 10:29 PM
Jose Calderon and Devin Harris are at the top. LOL. Rondo should have double the amount of votes as both of them combined. 80% of the coaches in the NBA would take Rajon Rondo over Jose Calderon or Devin Harris. That's not opinion either. That's guarateed.

ManRam
06-01-2009, 10:29 PM
I have no clue why Devin Harris has the most votes. I mean, he's a guy who shot 44% from the field (only Bibby lower out of all the guys listed), 29% from three (worst), turned the ball over the most out of all those guys, and only Mo and TJ has worse assist/TO ratios...

Sure he scores a lot, but he takes more shots than anyone on this list. He's a horrible shooter, an average passer.

I'd take Rose, Calderon, Rondo and Nelson ahead of him.

Angel
06-01-2009, 10:34 PM
lol i forgot all about this. i never even saw that last comment by morgan.

omgz i guess he like, has sex, with girls and stuff.
I wonder what that's like.

:rolleyes:

Everything Morgan said was true though. I don't know if he was going to get laid but everything else was true but, why would you think he was lying about going to hook up with a girl though? When I'm single which I barely ever am single, I hook up with girls. What's the big deal. Everyone's doing it. LOL

juggla53
06-01-2009, 10:38 PM
devin harris is the best but D-rose is riseing awfully quickly

Evolution=FACT
06-01-2009, 11:46 PM
Somebody voted for chris duhon.

Evolution=FACT
06-01-2009, 11:46 PM
what. the. ****. I would have voted Derrick Rose.

theuuord
06-02-2009, 02:11 AM
Everything Morgan said was true though. I don't know if he was going to get laid but everything else was true but, why would you think he was lying about going to hook up with a girl though? When I'm single which I barely ever am single, I hook up with girls. What's the big deal. Everyone's doing it. LOL

i didn't say he was lying. i think it's stupid when people try to act like anyone who disagrees with them on forums must not get laid. it's not hard to get laid.

Also the whole "let me write something on a post for 20 minutes and then say how people who must post a lot must not get laid" thing.

JDizzle
06-02-2009, 03:26 PM
devin harris by far the best pg in the east 2nd is rose

EX-TREME
06-02-2009, 03:58 PM
duhon have more votes then nelson and miller :pity:

mikantsass
06-02-2009, 04:07 PM
1. Rondo
2. Harris
3. Arenas
4. Rose
5. Miller

DitchDat
06-02-2009, 04:15 PM
LOL what? He's averaging like 10 points a game and his assists should be way higher considering he plays with 3 all stars.

averaged a near triple double in the playoffs though

he will score if he needs to

slipcid
06-02-2009, 09:52 PM
devin harris

ManRam
06-02-2009, 10:18 PM
Can someone explain to me why it's Devin Harris. I explained why I clearly think he's not elite, and no one tried to prove otherwise. He's a horrible shooter, chucks up a ton of shots, and is an average passer. So why is he so good?

Cubs Win
06-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Can someone explain to me why it's Devin Harris. I explained why I clearly think he's not elite, and no one tried to prove otherwise. He's a horrible shooter, chucks up a ton of shots, and is an average passer. So why is he so good?

A lot of people just look at the numbers.. his PPG and APG which makes him look like one of the top PGs in the East although I agree with you he is not the best. He is still very good though.

Ovratd1up
06-02-2009, 10:37 PM
The future belongs to Rose, Rondo, Harris, and Nelson as far as PG's in the East. Rose, Nelson, and Harris can all be superstars in the near future, while Rondo can in a few seasons. He is at the same level with number 5 Calderon at the moment.

theuuord
06-02-2009, 10:55 PM
Can someone explain to me why it's Devin Harris. I explained why I clearly think he's not elite, and no one tried to prove otherwise. He's a horrible shooter, chucks up a ton of shots, and is an average passer. So why is he so good?

He's so good because nothing you said is true.

He's not a horrible shooter, he doesn't just chuck shots, and he's a very good passer.

His percentages went down this year because he needed to take a much larger offensive load considering what else the Nets were able to offer. It wasn't just him chucking shots. Everything he did was in the flow of the offense.

He also averaged 7 assists per game and had an assist percentage of 34.3% - 12th in the league - on a team with only two other offensive threats. one of them being a rookie.

He was able to post the highest offensive rating of his career while using way more possessions than he ever has. That's truly an outstanding feat. Almost every player has the inverse relation.

Fireworld
06-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Rose for sure!

Omar Little
06-02-2009, 11:26 PM
how are there 3 votes for Duhon, and none for Miller???

Miller doesnt get much attention, but he is a very solid player and a great PG. Definitely better then Duhon.

Chronz
06-03-2009, 02:36 AM
Can someone explain to me why it's Devin Harris. I explained why I clearly think he's not elite, and no one tried to prove otherwise. He's a horrible shooter, chucks up a ton of shots, and is an average passer. So why is he so good?

As far as scoring PG's go, he is second only to TP or Chauncey if you consider him one. He doesnt have great range, and hes pretty turnover prone for someone who doesnt pass all that much but its because hes an aggressive slasher. The payoff for these flaws is that he gets to the line ALOT, almost 9 times a game. As the Nets surround him with more offensive weapons you should see his shooting%'s go up, his turnovers should go down just from experience, I see him undergoing a similar transformation that TP went through with limiting turnovers.

Oh and among PG's hes probably the most talented and versatile defensively. So hes a few steps away from becoming indefensible and hes a good defender, whats not to like?

DerekRE_3
06-03-2009, 02:38 AM
Funny how freaking Ramon Sessions and Chris Duhon are on this list and Raymond Felton isn't. He gets no respect. I'd take him over at least Ford, Sessions, and Duhon.

Kyle916
06-03-2009, 03:02 AM
Three votes for Duhon... :laugh:

Chronz
06-03-2009, 03:37 AM
Funny how freaking Ramon Sessions and Chris Duhon are on this list and Raymond Felton isn't. He gets no respect. I'd take him over at least Ford, Sessions, and Duhon.

Whats wrong with Sessions? PG's like Felton who cant score efficiently, and have never quarterbacked a halfway decent offense shouldnt be held in high regard unless they can defend like crazy.

Bob_at_york
06-03-2009, 09:33 AM
Funny how freaking Ramon Sessions and Chris Duhon are on this list and Raymond Felton isn't. He gets no respect. I'd take him over at least Ford, Sessions, and Duhon.

shut your mouth! TJ Ford is awesome, he spits hot fire!

BTownTeamsRKing
06-03-2009, 09:54 AM
lol at calderon being ahead of Rondo by double Rondo's votes

GodsSon
06-03-2009, 10:08 AM
lol at calderon being ahead of Rondo by double Rondo's votes

Rondo had a good end to the year, specifically the Chicago series...whereas, Calderon was playing through injury issues all year long, and when he finally did become healthy he proved his worth to the Raptors...people on this site are way too quick to jump the gun when a player has a good series or stretch of games and proclaim them "the future" or something similar

BTownTeamsRKing
06-03-2009, 10:20 AM
Rondo had a good end to the year, specifically the Chicago series...whereas, Calderon was playing through injury issues all year long, and when he finally did become healthy he proved his worth to the Raptors...people on this site are way too quick to jump the gun when a player has a good series or stretch of games and proclaim them "the future" or something similar

there are over 100 Raptors fans on this site.

Calderone got 27 more votes than Jameer Nelson.

no way id take calderone over Rondo. This guy carried the Celtics throughout this year's run. not Pierce, Not Ray, it was Rondo pushing the team.

GodsSon
06-03-2009, 10:27 AM
there are over 100 Raptors fans on this site.

Calderone got 27 more votes than Jameer Nelson.

no way id take calderone over Rondo. This guy carried the Celtics throughout this year's run. not Pierce, Not Ray, it was Rondo pushing the team.

Jameer averaged 3 less assists then Calderon, but 3 more points...so its dependent on what you want from your 1 spot...as for the Rondo/Calderon debate, i wouldnt expect any Boston fan to pick Calderon over Rondo, but in terms of ability i'd say they're pretty damn close with both offering some different pros/cons.

Bob_at_york
06-03-2009, 10:32 AM
there are over 100 Raptors fans on this site.

Calderone got 27 more votes than Jameer Nelson.

no way id take calderone over Rondo. This guy carried the Celtics throughout this year's run. not Pierce, Not Ray, it was Rondo pushing the team.

you are aware that most of the people voted in this poll last fall right?

Bob_at_york
06-03-2009, 10:35 AM
Jameer averaged 3 less assists then Calderon, but 3 more points...so its dependent on what you want from your 1 spot....
what about the defensive end? How do they compare there?

GodsSon
06-03-2009, 10:47 AM
what about the defensive end? How do they compare there?

didnt see enough of Nelson this season to draw an accurate assessment of his defensive capabilities against Calderon (who i know is a weak defender)

GCOOKIE7
06-03-2009, 11:25 AM
you cant mess with a healthy Caldy. Add 1 more vote to his total cuz I cant.

bostncelts34
06-03-2009, 11:40 AM
Lol this poll makes me laugh. Nelson with 1 vote. lol. Such a joke.

sep11ie
06-03-2009, 11:48 AM
Rondo=overrated. I can't stand that prick.

I'll take Jose or Nelson.

BTownTeamsRKing
06-03-2009, 11:52 AM
you are aware that most of the people voted in this poll last fall right?

yea i know. i just think its funny Duhon got 3 votes and Jameer gets 1

JOSKOMANG4
06-03-2009, 11:54 AM
Andre Miller.... though the sixers haven't gotten past the 1st round since the NBA finals back in 2000-2001.

Miller is by far the one of the purest PG in the NBA.

Definitely top 5.

1) Kidd
2) Nash
3) C. Paul
4) D. Williams
5) A. Miller

bbcmillionaire
06-03-2009, 12:10 PM
haha d rose owns, devin harris, rose and rondo are top 3. interchangeable maybe

CELTICS4LYFE
06-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Rondo=overrated. I can't stand that prick.

I'll take Jose or Nelson.

lol how is he overrated??


p.s. we should all take this poll agian

LetsGo HomeTeam
06-03-2009, 12:30 PM
Rose
Harris
Rondo
Miller
Jose

this is how i would pick em right now...

mavwar53
06-03-2009, 12:55 PM
I don't like the Celtics but I have always liked rondo and thought it was a joke when he was drafted then traded, I thought phoenix finally had a back up PG, everyone said they needed Cassel last year that was stupid, he has everything except a good jumper. He is defiantly not underrated the guy is skilled. He was a triple double type of player at Kentucky and now he has taken it to the NBA and people are finally recognizing.

nashehbazi
06-03-2009, 12:57 PM
why isnt arenas even on there

DerekRE_3
06-03-2009, 01:11 PM
Whats wrong with Sessions? PG's like Felton who cant score efficiently, and have never quarterbacked a halfway decent offense shouldnt be held in high regard unless they can defend like crazy.

Sessions doesn't play any defense, Felton does. Yes I've heard over and over again that Felton doesn't shoot the highest percentage, but he hits big shots and is great at getting into the lane and breaking down the defense. He's also very strong for his size and can take a hit and still finish inside. Also, when did I say that he should be held in high regard? I wouldn't put Felton in the top 5 PG wise in the East, but that doesn't mean that Chris Duhon and TJ Ford should be ahead of him. Also, once the Bobcats got Boris Diaw and Raja Bell, their offense became halfway decent, they just played at a really slow pace (Larry Brown), so they didn't put up 100 PPG like other teams. Felton may not have the greatest stats, but he has all the intangibles. He's a great teammate and leader, and once he gets a 3 point shot, his whole game will open up, that's really all that's left for him to do. Remember what happened to Chauncey Billups when he got 3 point range? That is the same thing that can happen to Felton. There are many similarities between the two, except that Felton hasn't been traded a lot early in his career like Billups. But that doesn't mean that Felton hasn't been part of a ton of trade rumors. And you know what? He never held a grudge against anyone or whined and complained. He still wants to come back to Charlotte.

BULLSFAN0810
06-03-2009, 01:40 PM
i usually just read these forums but some ppl got it all wrong .... ppl pick Devin Harris because of stats , but if you are to choose a real pg u must look at 4 things ....

1. can he run a offense ? does he get team-mates involved ?
does he control the pace of the game ?

2.assists/t.o ratio

3. defense

4. leadership

what make guys like D.Harris a non pg is that he doesnt run offense . he and Vc take turns shooting the ball while the bums get nothing . thats not a true pg .

top pgs in East are

Andre Miller (just for this year)
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose ( will be LBJ STATUS IN A FEW YRS)
D.HARRIS

crewzmega
06-03-2009, 02:11 PM
Devin Harris 1st, and Rajon Ronda 2nd in the east. Derrick Rose is on the come up but, he is not there yet.

Ewagner
06-03-2009, 02:36 PM
I will rank them 1-10

1. Rose – he’s the only guy here that can set up the offense, run the break, hit jump shots, and set up his teammates. I don’t care he is so young. He went toe to toe with a point guard who took his team to championship
2. Rondo – is there another PG, out of rose, with as much athletic ability. I think these playoffs showed what an unselfish player he is.
3. Calderon – shocked no one put him in there top three. He’s unselfish and if he played in a bigger market would be considered the foreign john stockdon
4. Miller – his own down fall is his foot speed. He is a true point guard. If he was a bit quicker he would have deron Williams
5. Harris – like the saying goes “everyone can put up stats on a bad team” let’s see what he does when he starts winning
6. Bibby – he’s older but he is still productive shooter and can still run a team
7. Ford – if he could only stay healthy
8. Nelson – I think skip to my lou is a better PG then nelson
9. Williams – you should be able to be productive with lebron and Michael redd next to you
10. Sessions – because Duhon is even worse

ManRam
06-03-2009, 02:37 PM
i usually just read these forums but some ppl got it all wrong .... ppl pick Devin Harris because of stats , but if you are to choose a real pg u must look at 4 things ....

1. can he run a offense ? does he get team-mates involved ?
does he control the pace of the game ?

2.assists/t.o ratio

3. defense

4. leadership

what make guys like D.Harris a non pg is that he doesnt run offense . he and Vc take turns shooting the ball while the bums get nothing . thats not a true pg .

top pgs in East are

Andre Miller (just for this year)
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose ( will be LBJ STATUS IN A FEW YRS)
D.HARRIS

I agree about Harris, but Calderon has to be on your list. He does everything you mentioned extremely well.

JaySmoke
06-03-2009, 03:01 PM
homer threAD

Chronz
06-03-2009, 06:06 PM
Sessions doesn't play any defense, Felton does. Yes I've heard over and over again that Felton doesn't shoot the highest percentage, but he hits big shots and is great at getting into the lane and breaking down the defense.
A strength that would make him a good PG if teams would actually care enough if he penetrates. When Sessions penetrates, hes more of a threat to finish, he attracts more defensive attention, I liken Feltons penetration abilities to a guy like Aaron Brooks, he can break you down and get the defense to react, but because hes not a great finisher his probes in the lane dont create much.


No offense but the ability to hit big shots is overrated when your not able to help put your team in a position to hit those shots in the first place. Besides hitting big shots is so subjective, I cant tell you how many times Ive seen someone praise a player for his ability to hit big shots, only to see him miss countless times when his team needed a few big ones in the playoffs or even translate the next year. Things like that are usually never a consistent part of a players game. There are exceptions that prove the rule and you could be right, Felton could be the 2nd coming of Sam Cassell, but even Billups has gone through seasons where he couldnt hit a big shot for his life. And you look at him and wonder how he ever got that name. Just watch as next year Roger Mason bricks every open game winning 3.

To me its a case of remembering the ones he makes, and forgetting the ones he doesnt. And Im looking at the #'s, Felton has one of the highest FG/A rates in clutch time, his name is up there with a ton of #1 options, the main difference between he and them is that he shoots a much lower%. So over the course of the year Id expect him to hit a few big shots, but really when your on a non-playoff team, how many big shots can you really hit, and when your taking most of them anyways, shouldnt you be due to hit a few?

Im looking at all the Bobcat players and none of the perimeter players shoot above 39% from the field in clutch situations (not surprising when you consider the Bobcats arent exactly a good team). Feltons best strength has more to do with his ballhandling and playmaking Id think. Then again I havent seen the games and Im not trying to act like I have, but these #'s dont seem to be just coincidences and they atleast make some kind of effort to quantify clutch ability.

Besides how do we know Sessions doesnt hit "big shots", or is he just incapable of making plays when his team needs it? Anyways Ive ranted long enough, even if we grant that Felton has the ability to consistently create quality shots in the clutch, and that Sessions was in fact inferior, Id rather have the player whos efficient enough to win the game before it gets to that point.


He's also very strong for his size and can take a hit and still finish inside.
Yea but Sessions is still better at getting out putting pressure on the defense the moment he touches the ball, and finishing in the paint.


Also, when did I say that he should be held in high regard? I wouldn't put Felton in the top 5 PG wise in the East, but that doesn't mean that Chris Duhon and TJ Ford should be ahead of him.
Should I have said Medium-Good regard? I agree with you on TJ and Duhon for sure, but Sessions sick. In that high of a regard is what I shouldve been more clear on. To me its simple, Felton has hit a plateau, Sessions has been strong from the get go and continues to impress. Right now Id say there is no clear distinction between the 2, then again last year I wouldve said the same thing about TJ Ford.


Also, once the Bobcats got Boris Diaw and Raja Bell, their offense became halfway decent, they just played at a really slow pace (Larry Brown), so they didn't put up 100 PPG like other teams.
Generally when I talk about a teams offense, Im not basing it on PPG, just the efficiency of the players on the team and their contributions to a teams overall output per possession. So that pace stuff really doesnt apply here, its just the simple nature of the game, the most efficient offenses tend to have the most efficient players.

We both know, the sole reason the Bobcats were almost halfway decent was due to their defense, looking at the makeup of the team its easy to see why. A defense that was bolstered with the Diaw trade much more than the offense was. Diaws main strength has been defensive versatility, hes playing the KG role to Emekas - Perkins.



Felton may not have the greatest stats, but he has all the intangibles. He's a great teammate and leader, and once he gets a 3 point shot, his whole game will open up, that's really all that's left for him to do. Remember what happened to Chauncey Billups when he got 3 point range? That is the same thing that can happen to Felton. There are many similarities between the two, except that Felton hasn't been traded a lot early in his career like Billups. But that doesn't mean that Felton hasn't been part of a ton of trade rumors. And you know what? He never held a grudge against anyone or whined and complained. He still wants to come back to Charlotte.

Hes a high character kid, and yea Chauncey getting traded was in many ways an advantage for development. Felton has had to learn the position on his own. There is no doubt he can still be a top flight player, but like Billups it wont be until he learns how to play efficiently.

Chronz
06-03-2009, 06:07 PM
i usually just read these forums but some ppl got it all wrong .... ppl pick Devin Harris because of stats , but if you are to choose a real pg u must look at 4 things ....

1. can he run a offense ? does he get team-mates involved ?
does he control the pace of the game ?

2.assists/t.o ratio

3. defense

4. leadership

what make guys like D.Harris a non pg is that he doesnt run offense . he and Vc take turns shooting the ball while the bums get nothing . thats not a true pg .

top pgs in East are

Andre Miller (just for this year)
Rajon Rondo
Derrick Rose ( will be LBJ STATUS IN A FEW YRS)
D.HARRIS
Do you think it would be in the best interest to have Devin create less for himself and more for Eduardo Najera and Jarvis Hayes.

Chronz
06-03-2009, 06:13 PM
I agree about Harris, but Calderon has to be on your list. He does everything you mentioned extremely well.
Calderon is in the Mo Williams category to me, Devin is well above that.

Kakaroach
06-03-2009, 06:23 PM
Devin Harris.

Kyben36
06-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Rose is definitly at the top for me. OK, maybe its a hommer call, but he can dominate anyone in the league. the only thing I have a problem with is he is a little too passive, in a sense where he wont just take over a game, but this could be good or bad.

jojoe1188
06-03-2009, 06:42 PM
if rondo ever develops a jumper WATCH OUT. he can drive like paul and pass just a notch below his level.

IversonIsKrazy
06-03-2009, 06:58 PM
^^^
if Rose ever develops a 3-point shot WATCH OUT. he can drive better than rondo.

IversonIsKrazy
06-03-2009, 06:59 PM
Man, the pg's in the east are just sad. As to the west, they got CP3, D-Will, Parker, Nash, Billups.

Best pg in the east has to be Derrick Rose.

jerseykidd88
06-03-2009, 07:17 PM
Devin Harris simply quickest and lead all pg in scoring GO NETS:clap:

harris2carter
06-03-2009, 07:38 PM
harris then miller then rose

vash9
06-03-2009, 07:54 PM
Devin Harris #1. This man drives way too fast. He is also declared the fastest player in the league. Noticed i said DECLARED. No one else wanted to do the guiness world record, so Harris is the fastest. He can drive better than Rose, just doesn't dunk it unless he knows he could get that dunk in and trust me, he's done that before. He can score GREAT. Was in the runnings for MIP and got 2nd place i believe after Granger.

#2 i'd say Rose.

#3 Miller.

#12121 Rondo. In my opinion, this guy is just getting too much hype.

ragee
06-03-2009, 07:59 PM
Too hard to tell but I voted for Rose... LoL

I say the top three spots goes to Rose, Rondo and Harris...

The nest two spots goes to Nelson and Calderon...

Ebbs
06-03-2009, 08:03 PM
Harris then calderon

plpfctn
06-04-2009, 12:11 AM
jameer nelson got only one vote?

ARMIN12NBA
06-04-2009, 12:25 AM
Devin Harris #1. This man drives way too fast. He is also declared the fastest player in the league. Noticed i said DECLARED. No one else wanted to do the guiness world record, so Harris is the fastest. He can drive better than Rose, just doesn't dunk it unless he knows he could get that dunk in and trust me, he's done that before. He can score GREAT. Was in the runnings for MIP and got 2nd place i believe after Granger.

#2 i'd say Rose.

#3 Miller.

#12121 Rondo. In my opinion, this guy is just getting too much hype.

A player who just averaged 17/10/10 in the playoffs while playing terrific defense (best defender at the PG spot in the entire league) is not rated 12,121.

albertc86
06-04-2009, 12:35 AM
Derrick Rose, hands down.

Gup
06-04-2009, 12:38 AM
I'd go with Rose.
The guys has all the tools to turn out to be an amazing PG

Lakersfan2483
06-04-2009, 12:41 AM
At this point, I would go with Devin Harris as the top pg in the East.

VinceGully
06-04-2009, 12:43 AM
all you Harris riders...come on now.

albertc86
06-04-2009, 12:49 AM
I can't choose Harris because the guy has an apparent ceiling. Rose, on the other hand, has a lot of potential and we have only seen glimpses of what he can do. If Rose improves his shot a little more, he's going to be scary.

CELTICS4LYFE
06-04-2009, 01:35 PM
I will rank them 1-10

1. Rose – he’s the only guy here that can set up the offense, run the break, hit jump shots, and set up his teammates. I don’t care he is so young. He went toe to toe with a point guard who took his team to championship
2. Rondo – is there another PG, out of rose, with as much athletic ability. I think these playoffs showed what an unselfish player he is.
3. Calderon – shocked no one put him in there top three. He’s unselfish and if he played in a bigger market would be considered the foreign john stockdon
4. Miller – his own down fall is his foot speed. He is a true point guard. If he was a bit quicker he would have deron Williams
5. Harris – like the saying goes “everyone can put up stats on a bad team” let’s see what he does when he starts winning
6. Bibby – he’s older but he is still productive shooter and can still run a team
7. Ford – if he could only stay healthy
8. Nelson – I think skip to my lou is a better PG then nelson
9. Williams – you should be able to be productive with lebron and Michael redd next to you
10. Sessions – because Duhon is even worse

who??

kozzer
06-04-2009, 02:19 PM
who??Eddie House

BULLSFAN0810
06-05-2009, 12:43 AM
Do you think it would be in the best interest to have Devin create less for himself and more for Eduardo Najera and Jarvis Hayes.

If CP3 can create for his team , and D.rose gets off Tyrus Thomas , brad Miller , kirk Heinrich , and give ben gordon his shots he is legit , a true Pg can turn sugar from Shiet .

Baller1
06-05-2009, 01:17 AM
One vote for Jameer? Wow... I know he got hurt, but damn. I thought he'd get more love than that.

jdillion
06-05-2009, 01:27 AM
right now I would take andre miller hands down. he runs a team better than anyone on that list.

But in a couple of years im going to take rose because hes going to be up there with williams and paul very soon.

klvanzu
06-05-2009, 07:48 PM
For next year I'll take Rose over any PG in the East, including Harris, Nelson, Rondo, Arenas, etc.

Kakaroach
06-05-2009, 07:50 PM
Lol @ Ramon Sessions

dos132
06-05-2009, 08:06 PM
Devin Harris...

jim51990
06-05-2009, 08:30 PM
rose is not in the top three rondo harris and nelson are all clearly better dont buy into the obsession with rose he has great talent but hes not better then them

shas
06-05-2009, 08:33 PM
calderon needs to stay healthy and if his cast can play better so will he, def a top PG next year

BiG bAd BrUiNs
06-05-2009, 08:55 PM
Give me Rajon Rondo any day of the week.

theuuord
06-06-2009, 02:12 AM
If CP3 can create for his team , and D.rose gets off Tyrus Thomas , brad Miller , kirk Heinrich , and give ben gordon his shots he is legit , a true Pg can turn sugar from Shiet .

....and Harris did well creating for his teammates as well as for himself.

Still wondering where the problem is here.

J_M_B
06-06-2009, 12:00 PM
I like Rajon Rondo and Jose Calderon.
In a couple of years I'll pick Derrick Rose.

Mc Uncle Cola
06-06-2009, 12:11 PM
Devin harris by far... rose is goin to be good... but he still needs time to learn the game and develop....

Devin Harris

MJ-BULLS
06-06-2009, 12:15 PM
devin harris right now but rose is going to be at the top :)