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oldenpolynice
12-05-2008, 06:18 PM
We recently published the December edition of the Top 25 players under age 25.

A few highlights/lowlights:

- Brandon Roy leapfrogging Melo for the 6th spot.

- O.J. Mayo jumping 7 spots to #11.

- Bynum & Rose moving up into the Top 15.

- Iguodala falling out of the Top 15 (to #18 overall).

- Rajon Rondo making his first appearance of the year (at #20).

- Paul Millsap debuting at #23.

http://www.davissportsdeli.com/Top%2025%20Under%2025%2012-2-08%2011th%20Edition.html

Draco
12-05-2008, 07:14 PM
The writer of this article empahsizes 2 sub par Rose games out of 19 to explain why he's below Mayo while ESPN criticizes Mayo for something like 80% of his shots not having come off a pass and having a low assist average.. ie, hogging the ball. Well, whatever. Realistically, Rose is somwhere within the top 6 on that list.. I'm not building a team around Roy, Jefferson, Smith, Durant or Bynum before Rose.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2008, 07:58 PM
The writer of this article empahsizes 2 sub par Rose games out of 19 to explain why he's below Mayo while ESPN criticizes Mayo for something like 80% of his shots not having come off a pass and having a low assist average.. ie, hogging the ball. Well, whatever. Realistically, Rose is somwhere within the top 6 on that list.. I'm not building a team around Roy, Jefferson, Smith, Durant or Bynum before Rose.

Well, your bias aside on Rose, I will agree with you. Mayo is a great shooter, and does nothing else. Rose is great at everything, except shooting. One has one skill to obtain, the other has many skills to obtain. And Mayo is a year older than a normal freshman coming out, without a clearly defined position. He doesn't belong ahead of Rose. As for as those you would take Rose before, I agree with Smith and Bynum, not the others.

Draco
12-05-2008, 08:19 PM
Well, your bias aside on Rose, I will agree with you. Mayo is a great shooter, and does nothing else. Rose is great at everything, except shooting. One has one skill to obtain, the other has many skills to obtain. And Mayo is a year older than a normal freshman coming out, without a clearly defined position. He doesn't belong ahead of Rose. As for as those you would take Rose before, I agree with Smith and Bynum, not the others.

Of course you agree with me since you've followed Rose during his Memphis days there has to be some embedded bias there.. ;) At any rate; Jefferson has a strike against him while Rose has a clean slate.. Ainge couldn't build around Jefferson. As far as Durant and Roy.. I'd guess that Rose is closer to Paul and Williams than Roy is to Kobe or Durant is to Lebron. Perhaps I'm wrong, to each his own. What I mean by that is Rose is closer to being a superstar than eitherr Durant or Roy. Yes, I said it.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2008, 08:23 PM
Of course you agree with me since you've followed Rose during his Memphis days there has to be some embedded bias there.. At any rate; Jefferson has a strike against him while Rose has a clean slate.. Ainge couldn't build around Jefferson. As far as Durant and Roy.. I'd guess that Rose is closer to Paul and Williams than Roy is to Kobe or Durant is to Lebron. Perhaps I'm wrong, to each his own.

Well, Jefferson started slow, he should have gone to school for a year or two. But he is automatic 20-10. And I may take Rose to start a team over him, I am just saying it isn't that easy of a decision. I followed Beasley in college, Mayo in college, Love in college, and I just thought Rose would be awesome. Plus, Rose's athletic ability is so high right now, his ceiling isn't waht Durant's is, and Roy is already proving he can lead a young team to wins. Rose has to get a shot. That's about it. Look, I love Rose, and think he is a franchise talent, but you can't just call out guys who have proven in their short amount of time, but well over a season, that you would take him over all of them.

Draco
12-05-2008, 08:33 PM
Well, Jefferson started slow, he should have gone to school for a year or two. But he is automatic 20-10. And I may take Rose to start a team over him, I am just saying it isn't that easy of a decision. I followed Beasley in college, Mayo in college, Love in college, and I just thought Rose would be awesome. Plus, Rose's athletic ability is so high right now, his ceiling isn't waht Durant's is, and Roy is already proving he can lead a young team to wins. Rose has to get a shot. That's about it. Look, I love Rose, and think he is a franchise talent, but you can't just call out guys who have proven in their short amount of time, but well over a season, that you would take him over all of them.

Elton Brand is an automatic 20-10 guy and he's not a guy who you build your team around. Stats aren't everything.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299711

To me, Roy hasn't proven much of anything he's just been in the league longer than Rose. I'm not putting Rose over anyone so much as I'm trying to convey that I'll take my chances with a potential superstar PG over a star SG or a potential superstar SF who has no chance of being Lebron.

Hawkeye15
12-05-2008, 08:41 PM
Elton Brand is an automatic 20-10 guy and he's not a guy who you build your team around. Stats aren't everything.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299711

To me, Roy hasn't proven much of anything he's just been in the league longer than Rose. I'm not putting Rose over anyone so much as I'm trying to convey that I'll take my chances with a potential superstar PG over a star SG or a potential superstar SF who has no chance of being Lebron.

well, we can agree to disagree. Rose will have to learn to shoot. He doesn't have the court awarness of Kidd, the only great point to get away with not having a jumper. But he is a player

b_rad23
12-05-2008, 08:43 PM
Give me Beasley over Brewer, Chandler, and a few others.

Also, the Youtube clip in Bynum's description has nothing to do with Bynum.

oldenpolynice
12-05-2008, 09:24 PM
Give me Beasley over Brewer, Chandler, and a few others.

Also, the Youtube clip in Bynum's description has nothing to do with Bynum.

List pertains to this season only. Not seasons in the future. Beasley has shown a lot of immaturity that Brewer and Chandler have obviously already moved past. Spoelstra is just now, 15+ games into the season, trusting Beasley with 4th quarter responsibilities. That tells you something.

oldenpolynice
12-05-2008, 09:25 PM
Give me Beasley over Brewer, Chandler, and a few others.

Also, the Youtube clip in Bynum's description has nothing to do with Bynum.

I was just looking for a good excuse to show the Devin Harris diving into the Laker girls clip again.

rosesbulls
12-05-2008, 11:49 PM
I haven't heard a single Mayo to Wade comparison and alot of Rose- Wade comparisons so idk were the writer got that bull crap about Mayo and Wade having to many similarities to count.

Lakersfan2483
12-06-2008, 12:12 AM
Good list

MoJay
12-06-2008, 12:17 AM
yes! ramon sessions is up there he deserves to be. My boy Ramon is up there (I am a bucks fan) ,but Stuckey should at least be on the cusp not sure how he is performing this season though.

KobeIs
12-06-2008, 12:47 AM
Rose and Mayo should have their ranks switched.

AirJordanXVIII
12-06-2008, 12:49 AM
OJ Mayo + Derick Rose = :worthy:

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 12:56 AM
yes! ramon sessions is up there he deserves to be. My boy Ramon is up there (I am a bucks fan) ,but Stuckey should at least be on the cusp not sure how he is performing this season though.

Nice! Some love for Ramon.

Stuckey hasn't been playing well enough to get cusp status. But in the future it's a possibility. He's a good player.

SAVAGE CLAW
12-06-2008, 01:10 AM
No Rudy Fernandez yet? then its a complete **** of a list.

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 04:33 AM
No Rudy Fernandez yet? then its a complete **** of a list.

Yeah, I have to disagree with you on this one. Rudy's good. But c'mon. He's not THAT good. He's probably worthy of On the Cusp status. I won't argue that one. But would that really have made you happy? I have a feeling it wouldn't have.

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 05:32 PM
I know there are quite a few Jazz fans on this board. Are you guys proud to see Paul Millsap make his debut?

He's been doing an excellent job filling in for Booz.

rosesbulls
12-06-2008, 06:01 PM
Its funny his only reason Mayo is ranked higher is consistantcy when Mayo is so inconsistant. He has 2 30 points game then a 10 then a 26 then a 9, he is extremely inconsistant.

Rose has had 1 game under 10 points...

BullsNumber1Fan
12-06-2008, 07:05 PM
Well, Jefferson started slow, he should have gone to school for a year or two. But he is automatic 20-10. And I may take Rose to start a team over him, I am just saying it isn't that easy of a decision. I followed Beasley in college, Mayo in college, Love in college, and I just thought Rose would be awesome. Plus, Rose's athletic ability is so high right now, his ceiling isn't waht Durant's is, and Roy is already proving he can lead a young team to wins. Rose has to get a shot. That's about it. Look, I love Rose, and think he is a franchise talent, but you can't just call out guys who have proven in their short amount of time, but well over a season, that you would take him over all of them.

Well aparently you haven't been watching Rose at all this season because he has a GREAT jumper now. He rarely EVER misses a jumper!

Draco
12-06-2008, 07:07 PM
Well aparently you haven't been watching the Rose at all this season because he has a GREAT jumper now. He rarely EVER misses a jumper!

lol.. yeah, I noticed that too.

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 07:08 PM
Its funny his only reason Mayo is ranked higher is consistantcy when Mayo is so inconsistant. He has 2 30 points game then a 10 then a 26 then a 9, he is extremely inconsistant.

Rose has had 1 game under 10 points...

Before the list was published on December 2, Mayo had 6 consecutive games over 19 points. Sounds pretty consistent to me.

It's difficult to put one over the other at this point. Both Rose and Mayo are very, very good players. At the time of publication we felt Mayo was playing better. Can easily be a different story for the next edition.

Draco
12-06-2008, 07:11 PM
Spencer Hawes is on the list but not Oden... I admire the whole ranking players based on merit but realistically no one would ever put Spencer above Oden or keep Oden off the list.

DerekRE_3
12-06-2008, 07:20 PM
Spencer Hawes is on the list but not Oden... I admire the whole ranking players based on merit but realistically no one would ever put Spencer above Oden or keep Oden off the list.

Have you seen Spencer this year? He's getting 12 and 7 and isn't starting (just won the starting job from Mikki Moore). He is also 6th in the league in blocks. And is the same age as Oden. As of now...Hawes has produced more than Oden has.

Draco
12-06-2008, 07:22 PM
Have you seen Spencer this year? He's getting 12 and 7 and isn't starting (just won the starting job from Mikki Moore). He is also 6th in the league in blocks. And is the same age as Oden. As of now...Hawes has produced more than Oden has.

I haven't seen Spencer play this year but if you had your choice between the two who would you take? Final answer.. not I'll take Hawes right now, but Oden in a few years.

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 08:07 PM
Spencer Hawes is on the list but not Oden... I admire the whole ranking players based on merit but realistically no one would ever put Spencer above Oden or keep Oden off the list.

You're way off-base on this one. Oden is a defensive threat but has stamina problems. He usually sits on the bench and watches Pryzbilla play in crunch time. I like Oden a lot for what he is (a defensive stopper). But he isn't on Hawe's level right now.

Hawes' offensive game is waaaaay more developed. Can hit shots from anywhere on the court, has well-developed post moves, runs the court well, blocks right around 2 shots per game, and is a very good passer inside.

Hawes blows Oden out of the water this season.

DerekRE_3
12-06-2008, 08:40 PM
I haven't seen Spencer play this year but if you had your choice between the two who would you take? Final answer.. not I'll take Hawes right now, but Oden in a few years.

So you haven't seen Hawes play...and you are making analysis on him? Hmm...something seems off on that one. And right now...it's pretty damn even between Hawes and Oden. Hawes is more skilled on offense, Oden is better on defense. Hawes has shown that he is not a complete liability on defense though, and Oden has shown he really has no offensive game.

And can Oden do this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_DVnJaGAv8

or this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7lHj14sqjA&NR=1

what about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fLccFic_q8&feature=related

Did I mention that Spencer Hawes shoots over 40% from the 3 point line? And that's hes 20 years old?

ARMIN12NBA
12-06-2008, 08:42 PM
You're way off-base on this one. Oden is a defensive threat but has stamina problems. He usually sits on the bench and watches Pryzbilla play in crunch time. I like Oden a lot for what he is (a defensive stopper). But he isn't on Hawe's level right now.

Hawes' offensive game is waaaaay more developed. Can hit shots from anywhere on the court, has well-developed post moves, runs the court well, blocks right around 2 shots per game, and is a very good passer inside.

Hawes blows Oden out of the water this season.

He hasn't even been all that good on defense this season...

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 09:31 PM
He hasn't even been all that good on defense this season...

He's been pretty solid. Not elite level or anything like that (I beefed up the defensive talk a little bit for Draco's sake). But Oden's been reliable down low.

IndiansFan337
12-06-2008, 09:44 PM
Rudy Gay & Durant are overrated. The others seem appropriate.

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 09:49 PM
Rudy Gay & Durant are overrated. The others seem appropriate.

Durant's value goes up with Scotty Brooks holding the reigns in OKC. Carlesimo was like a prison master for Durant. Forced him to play out of position and had no concept of how to teach team offense at all.

Gay is right where he should be. He can explode at any time and I don't expect this slump to last all season. He's too good a shooter for that.

Draco
12-06-2008, 10:38 PM
Let me get this straight.. Durant's value goes up for the possibility of Brooks doing a better job than Carlesimo but Oden's value is nil until he proves he's better than at least the 25th spot holder, Hawes? Well, it's your list to do with as you will.

oldenpolynice
12-06-2008, 11:13 PM
Let me get this straight.. Durant's value goes up for the possibility of Brooks doing a better job than Carlesimo but Oden's value is nil until he proves he's better than at least the 25th spot holder, Hawes? Well, it's your list to do with as you will.

There is a big difference between Durant's level of play this season and Oden's level of play. Also, Durant's value has already increased since Brooks came on board. He's having his best stretch of the season in the games after Carlesimo was fired.

DerekRE_3
12-06-2008, 11:46 PM
There is a big difference between Durant's level of play this season and Oden's level of play. Also, Durant's value has already increased since Brooks came on board. He's having his best stretch of the season in the games after Carlesimo was fired.

I believe he is shooting around 48% with Brooks as coach. Before that he was at 40-41%.

oldenpolynice
12-07-2008, 01:23 AM
I believe he is shooting around 48% with Brooks as coach. Before that he was at 40-41%.

Appreciate the verification. The Thunder may not win under Brooks. But at least they'll improve and run an offense that actually makes sense.

Also, just in case anyone's interested, Paul Millsap has recorded 5 straight double-doubles. Pretty impressive.

DerekRE_3
12-07-2008, 01:26 AM
Millsap has been a beast. The Jazz may want to think about trading Boozer now instead of letting him walk next year. They could probably get Millie at a cheaper price anyways.

And since Scott Brooks has taken over the Thunder, they have been much more competitive. The players seem to be responding to him.

oldenpolynice
12-07-2008, 04:39 AM
Millsap has been a beast. The Jazz may want to think about trading Boozer now instead of letting him walk next year. They could probably get Millie at a cheaper price anyways.

And since Scott Brooks has taken over the Thunder, they have been much more competitive. The players seem to be responding to him.

Jazz may as well trade Booz before they lose him for nothing to the Heat. Millsap can carry the weight. He's a better defender than Boozer anyway.

TMAC94
12-07-2008, 08:29 AM
id put roy at number 5 insteada williams

oldenpolynice
12-07-2008, 03:25 PM
id put roy at number 5 insteada williams

That's a tough call. Williams' injury limits his ability to produce right now and even then he's putting up 15 point-15 assist games. When healthy and 100% in shape, he's a better player than Roy. I think we'll see him back to that level of play really soon.

fishfan79
12-07-2008, 09:04 PM
Mario Chalmers should be on that list