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View Full Version : Phil Jackson: lucky or good?



MoBASS
12-01-2008, 04:47 PM
I'm sure we can all agree that Phil Jackson is a combination of lucky (coached 3 of the greatest basketball players of all time) AND good (9 NBA championships).

Obviously Phil is not your typical X's and O's coach, but I think his style works perfectly in the NBA. Successful coaches ALWAYS have the utmost respect of their players (Jackson, Popovich, Riley, etc...). Being a coach in the NBA is more about handling personalities than teaching the world's best how to play the game.

So I'm curious, is Jackson more lucky or more good?

hyphy king 88
12-01-2008, 04:56 PM
I honestly think its a both but more towards the lucky side. Having maybe 4 of the top 20 players in the history of the NBA sure helps a lot.

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 04:57 PM
It sure helps when you coach MJ, Shaq, and Kobe. But he also had the right methods too. So half and half.

Lakers4ItAll
12-01-2008, 05:01 PM
I've never been a big fan of Phil he's deff luckier than good. I'mnot sayin he is a bad coach just deff more so lucky

_Sn1P3r_
12-01-2008, 05:09 PM
It helps when you coach really good players but he's not a bad coach. So, it could go both ways.

unwantedplayer
12-01-2008, 05:16 PM
equal, lucky to have good players, but has the coaching attitude to win a championship

Wilson
12-01-2008, 05:26 PM
You can make the case that he's been lucky to have great players. Here are some numbers for you though:

Championships won by Jordan's Bulls, before Phil Jackson signed with the team: 0
Championships won by Jordan's Bulls, after Phil Jackson signed with the team: 6

Championships won by Shaq's Lakers, before Phil Jackson signed with the team: 0
Championships won by Shaq's Lakers, after Phil Jackson signed with the team: 3

He just knows how to get the most out of his players.

JordansBulls
12-01-2008, 05:40 PM
It's a combination of both. However, you must remember he has only won titles whenever he has had the best player in the league on his the team.
While it is true the Bulls didn't win without him, they didn't have the players around until Phil came aboard because that is when Pippen began to become great.

In the case of the Lakers they were already a title team before Phil came around, the Shaq and Kobe era worked and they listened to Phil mainly because he had already won 6 titles.

_Sn1P3r_
12-01-2008, 06:33 PM
equal, lucky to have good players, but has the coaching attitude to win a championship

Dam, you got me with your sig. Took me a while to stop it. xP

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 06:39 PM
equal, lucky to have good players, but has the coaching attitude to win a championship

your sig just nailed me while in my comp class:mad:

Wilson
12-01-2008, 06:42 PM
your sig just nailed me while in my comp class:mad:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

It got me when I clicked to try and figure out what Sn1P3r was on about.

G-Funk
12-01-2008, 06:45 PM
If Phil is lucky then that makes every coach that has ever won a championship lucky as well ,you can't win without talent.

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 06:45 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

It got me when I clicked to try and figure out what Sn1P3r was on about.

looking back at it now, it was pretty funny...although everyone in my class was reallllly confused, lol

Mile High Champ
12-01-2008, 07:14 PM
Phil is not lucky, he is a great coach.. He knows how to get the most out of his guys as a few of you have said. Hell he managed to control Rodman and I have no idea how he was able to do that. He has players play into his style and understanding. He managed to get Kobe and Shaq on the same page for a while. I don't think you can call a coach lucky when he has won 9 titles. Yeah maybe if he won 1 or 2 but 9. Come on people give the guy his due. Only great coaches can coach the greatest players of all time, they know how to inspire them, get them angry, play to their best and thats what Jackson did with all his players. Shaq and Kobe listened to Phil because he was a winner, do you think you could command the respect of great players like these two if you have never won before?

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 07:17 PM
Phil is not lucky, he is a great coach.. He knows how to get the most out of his guys as a few of you have said. Hell he managed to control Rodman and I have no idea how he was able to do that. He has players play into his style and understanding. He managed to get Kobe and Shaq on the same page for a while. I don't think you can call a coach lucky when he has won 9 titles. Yeah maybe if he won 1 or 2 but 9. Come on people give the guy his due.

he is part lucky in the fact he has had some of the best players all-time on his teams to carry out his coaching style.

jimbobjarree
12-01-2008, 07:26 PM
you need some luck to wina title anyways.

but yeah, you have to say alot of those titles were down to the individual inspiration of a certain Mr Jordan and Mr Bryant

Mile High Champ
12-01-2008, 07:29 PM
he is part lucky in the fact he has had some of the best players all-time on his teams to carry out his coaching style.

thats true for any coach who has won multiple titles. In that case every coach that has won is lucky to have had the best players on his team. Jackson is the best coach in NBA histroy in my mind. 9 titles is not luck!

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 07:31 PM
thats true for any coach who has won multiple titles. In that case every coach that has won is lucky to have had the best players on his team. Jackson is the best coach in NBA histroy in my mind. 9 titles is not luck!

yes, every coach that has won titles IS lucky. They are lucky to have those players to carry out their plays. At the end of the day its a players league. The star players are taking the last shot, not the coach.

G-Funk
12-01-2008, 07:36 PM
he is part lucky in the fact he has had some of the best players all-time on his teams to carry out his coaching style.

Any coach needs talent. You start with talent. Without talent, we're all in the soup. You know what I mean? If you get the talent you gotta use it and you better not lose it. -Red Auerbach

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 07:42 PM
Any coach needs talent. You start with talent. Without talent, we're all in the soup. You know what I mean? If you get the talent you gotta use it and you better not lose it. -Red Auerbach

I'm not arguing that coaches need talent. I'm just saying he had beyond just talent, he had some of the greatest talent. I'm not saying he is a bad coach.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2008, 07:43 PM
You can make the case that he's been lucky to have great players. Here are some numbers for you though:

Championships won by Jordan's Bulls, before Phil Jackson signed with the team: 0
Championships won by Jordan's Bulls, after Phil Jackson signed with the team: 6

Championships won by Shaq's Lakers, before Phil Jackson signed with the team: 0
Championships won by Shaq's Lakers, after Phil Jackson signed with the team: 3

He just knows how to get the most out of his players.

exactly. Now, did he happen to walk into great situations? Hell yeah. He got Jordan and Shaq as they were entering their primes, but was able to take high profile players, and unite them. He is lucky and good, but mostly good. I love it when the Lakers are down like 10, and he is just sitting on the bench with his hands behind his head like he's at the beach. Calmest dude alive in coaching

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 07:47 PM
exactly. Now, did he happen to walk into great situations? Hell yeah. He got Jordan and Shaq as they were entering their primes, but was able to take high profile players, and unite them. He is lucky and good, but mostly good. I love it when the Lakers are down like 10, and he is just sitting on the bench with his hands behind his head like he's at the beach. Calmest dude alive in coaching

he is a pretty chill dude on the bench.

G-Funk
12-01-2008, 07:49 PM
I'm not arguing that coaches need talent. I'm just saying he had beyond just talent, he had some of the greatest talent. I'm not saying he is a bad coach.

I some what agree but what makes a player into one of the greatest player of all time???? Rings! players are messured by Championships.

G-Funk
12-01-2008, 08:00 PM
Look at Pop. I think that he could have won with Garnett instead of Duncan. that would have put Garnett as the greatest PF of all time. Or Sloan He had Malone & Stockton that's great talent, but he didn't do nothing with it, D'antoni had so much talent with the Suns but sucked as a coach.

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 08:10 PM
Look at Pop. I think that he could have won with Garnett instead of Duncan. that would have put Garnett as the greatest PF of all time. Or Sloan He had Malone & Stockton that's great talent, but he didn't do nothing with it, D'antoni had so much talent with the Suns but sucked as a coach.

yea, but didnt malone and stockton consistanly get shut down by jordan, and the suns never had the players to play D. Which wins championships.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2008, 08:51 PM
you need some luck to wina title anyways.

but yeah, you have to say alot of those titles were down to the individual inspiration of a certain Mr Jordan and Mr Bryant

I will give you MJ, but Bryant was the Pippen of the Lakers rings dude. Cry stats in the finals all you want, but the other teams sole purpose was to stop Shaq, and make anyone, anything beat them. Bryant simply stepped up, as did many Lakers. Wade got his ring that way as well, but Shaq was better back then.

_Sn1P3r_
12-01-2008, 09:04 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

It got me when I clicked to try and figure out what Sn1P3r was on about.

Lmao.


looking back at it now, it was pretty funny...although everyone in my class was reallllly confused, lol

Haha, did your teacher hear it? And what did people in your class say?

Wilson
12-01-2008, 09:06 PM
exactly. Now, did he happen to walk into great situations? Hell yeah. He got Jordan and Shaq as they were entering their primes, but was able to take high profile players, and unite them. He is lucky and good, but mostly good. I love it when the Lakers are down like 10, and he is just sitting on the bench with his hands behind his head like he's at the beach. Calmest dude alive in coaching

That can be frustrating at times, but it pays dividends in the play-offs, when your team can deal with different situations after having to figure it out in the early season, not-as-important games.

Frrrrank!!!
12-01-2008, 09:06 PM
Lmao.



Haha, did your teacher hear it? And what did people in your class say?

Everyone heard it...but its college so people laugh, and my prof says interesting taste in music and its over, nobody really cares. Doesnt mean I wanted that to happen though, lol.

Wilson
12-01-2008, 09:09 PM
I will give you MJ, but Bryant was the Pippen of the Lakers rings dude. Cry stats in the finals all you want, but the other teams sole purpose was to stop Shaq, and make anyone, anything beat them. Bryant simply stepped up, as did many Lakers. Wade got his ring that way as well, but Shaq was better back then.

It's not really worth having this argument again. I just took the post you quoted to mean that Kobe is the Jordan of the current Laker team, which he definately is.

Hawkeye15
12-01-2008, 09:15 PM
It's not really worth having this argument again. I just took the post you quoted to mean that Kobe is the Jordan of the current Laker team, which he definately is.

Of course he is the Jordan of his current team. He wasn't when he won 3 rings. He was the Pippen at that time. That is what I meant. Any Laker fan who argues otherwise has a very short, and selective memory.

Wilson
12-01-2008, 09:22 PM
Of course he is the Jordan of his current team. He wasn't when he won 3 rings. He was the Pippen at that time. That is what I meant. Any Laker fan who argues otherwise has a very short, and selective memory.

I agree that he was the Pippen of the 3-peat. However, there almost definately will be people to argue it, and it's kind of off-topic. It's also all stuff we've heard before, and I just don't think it's worth it :o

Hawkeye15
12-01-2008, 09:24 PM
I agree that he was the Pippen of the 3-peat. However, there almost definately will be people to argue it, and it's kind of off-topic. It's also all stuff we've heard before, and I just don't think it's worth it :o

touche my man.

G-Funk
12-01-2008, 09:33 PM
yea, but didnt malone and stockton consistanly get shut down by jordan, and the suns never had the players to play D. Which wins championships.

Look at Pierce, Allen and Most of the team . they wearnt known for there defense, but a coach made them believe in it.

kylem4711
12-02-2008, 04:14 AM
he is a good coach. really lucky though

TMAC94
12-02-2008, 04:15 AM
he is a good coach, but got very lucky with the pau gasol trade, but im voting for good coach.

LakerzDQ
12-02-2008, 10:06 AM
these arguments are hard to settle, "good, lucky, or a combo of both?". we would never know, but of course, I believe that it's a combination of both.

barreleffact
12-02-2008, 10:56 AM
If Phil is lucky then that makes every coach that has ever won a championship lucky as well ,you can't win without talent.

agreed

Frrrrank!!!
12-02-2008, 11:14 AM
Look at Pierce, Allen and Most of the team . they wearnt known for there defense, but a coach made them believe in it.

KG made them believe in it for the most part, imo.

leftymo
12-02-2008, 01:18 PM
he is a good coach, but got very lucky with the pau gasol trade, but im voting for good coach.



But the Lakers were #1 in the west before the Gasol trade...

With a team nobody expected to even contend, some thought they'd miss the playoffs last year.


Their finals berth was definitely one year ahead of schedule. This year is their scheduled year. So far so good.

leftymo
12-02-2008, 01:20 PM
Of course he is the Jordan of his current team. He wasn't when he won 3 rings. He was the Pippen at that time. That is what I meant. Any Laker fan who argues otherwise has a very short, and selective memory.


I'll go with short selective memory.

You know the one where Kobe dominated the Spurs to get to the finals as a 22 year old, b/c Shaq was neutralized by Duncan/Robinson.

The one where shaq fouls out and Kobe wins the game on the road in OT against Indiana as a 21 year old.

My short selective memory doesn't recall MJ being knocked out of a game where Pippen dominated the finals game.

JordansBulls
12-02-2008, 01:33 PM
I'll go with short selective memory.

You know the one where Kobe dominated the Spurs to get to the finals as a 22 year old, b/c Shaq was neutralized by Duncan/Robinson.


Not sure about being neutralized as Shaq still averaged 27 and 13 that series in 2001 and he averaged 21/12 and 3 bpg the next year against them.




The one where shaq fouls out and Kobe wins the game on the road in OT against Indiana as a 21 year old.

My short selective memory doesn't recall MJ being knocked out of a game where Pippen dominated the finals game.

Using the 2000 playoffs and finals is the worst example you could use because that was when Shaq was at his all time best.

Shaq in that game 4 had 36 and 21 and Reggie Miller for Indiana had 35 and 5 with Kobe having 28/5/4.

Shaq for the series averaged 38 and 17

gcoll
12-02-2008, 01:37 PM
A little bit of both.

He is a good coach. But come on....he had MJ's Bulls, and the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. I think I could have coached those teams to some championships.

He's a good coach, but he's not as good as his track record indicates. That's kind of how it goes with all coaches though.

EricU812
12-02-2008, 01:41 PM
There are several types of teams and players on your teams. There are teams who you would want coaching your team if they were absolutely terrible. Teach them how to go from bad to good. I'm not sure if Phil would be able to handle this as effectively as others. Taking them to that next level. Thats where I would want Phil. He takes teams from good to great, and typically to champions.

Now, don't forget either, that because of his history he has the money/ability to pick and choose who he wants to coach. Obviously knowing his own legacy and need to winn championships. He wanted to coach the Lakers because of their talent and the fat conctract. He deserves it, and he's taken them from good to Champions, and he's doing it again post Shaq.

futureman
12-02-2008, 02:10 PM
I can't take anything away from phil jackson as a coach. He is one of those coaches that can get maximum production out of all of his players. He plays the inexperienced players in critical points of the game in order for them to gain more experience.

As much as I loathe the guy, He is the best coach in the league by far. Right above popovich, rivers, and sloan.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2008, 02:42 PM
Not sure about being neutralized as Shaq still averaged 27 and 13 that series in 2001 and he averaged 21/12 and 3 bpg the next year against them.




Using the 2000 playoffs and finals is the worst example you could use because that was when Shaq was at his all time best.

Shaq in that game 4 had 36 and 21 and Reggie Miller for Indiana had 35 and 5 with Kobe having 28/5/4.

Shaq for the series averaged 38 and 17

that was the short and SELECTIVE memory I talk of. Thanks for posting stats, I didn't feel the need to dig them up

king4day
12-02-2008, 02:45 PM
While he has been fortunate to be a part of teams with players listed as one of the best ever, he's very talented. He does a lot when he has little to work with, and he supercedes when he has enough to work with.

G-Funk
12-02-2008, 02:58 PM
The Point is that Phil can actually coaches, he teaches the hardest offense in the League, he makes them play defense, all his teams we're great defenseive teams and the fact that he's offense takes 2 years to teach actually shows that he puts time into it.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2008, 03:00 PM
The Point is that Phil can actually coaches, he teaches the hardest offense in the League, he makes them play defense, all he's teams we're great defenseive teams and the fact that he's offense takes 2 years to teach actually shows that he puts time into it.

Yeah, he is a special coach. His ability to keep together different egos and personalities, as well as run his style of offense seperate him. Has he been fortunate and had great players every stop? Sure. But those greats weren't winning it before he showed up. Anyone who can control Rodman at all is doing something right.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-02-2008, 04:20 PM
I think it is more of him being a good coach. Everyone remembers him having Jordan and Pippen and Shaq and Kobe and winning rings. But he took over the Lakers this last time the year after they won 34 games. The young players seemed like they were going to be bust. Phil has molded these young players into real NBA players. Trevor Ariza could not get off the bench for the Knicks or the Magic, but Phil has a way of getting the best out of players. That is a great coach. Not lucky.