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View Full Version : Shawn Marion only was good because of Steve Nash?



Kabowdos
11-18-2008, 10:27 PM
I think Shawn Marion is a product of Steve Nash and Mike D'Antoni offense. He is now on a team where he is suppose to be the second best player. He is not putting up great numbers this season or since he has been with the Heat.


What do you guys think?

This year stats averages
8 games - 10.3 pts - 8.4 rebounds - 1 assits - 1.2 STL - 2.1 BLK
45.9% FG
Last years 16 games with Heat (no d wade)
14.3 pts - 11.2 rebounds - 2.5 assists - 1.9 stls - .9 blk
45.2% FG
Since he has been with the Heat he has averaged his lowest points per game since his rookie season.

While he was in PHX he was shooting 52 to 53% FG in his last three seasons.

Kyben36
11-18-2008, 10:30 PM
NO Crap. He has a terible shot for a 3. He does not have the Handles to be a 3. And he is definitly not big enough to be a 4. All he does it slash to the basket and his only ability is to drible once and go up. He can shot OK though if you leave him open. He is no Gr8 player though

kswissdaf
11-18-2008, 10:39 PM
he needs some help but he is still skilled

Lakers4ItAll
11-18-2008, 10:41 PM
I never seen him as a great player, to me he is just a role player

GSRaider
11-18-2008, 10:43 PM
Marion would be good under Don Nelsons system.

IndyRealist
11-18-2008, 10:46 PM
Scoring isn't everything. Marion's still one of the best defenders in the league. He's just been overrated offensively, because Nash makes everyone better offensively. But was he "only good because of Steve Nash?" Absolutely not.

Hawkeye15
11-18-2008, 11:03 PM
While I agree he is a system player, and just happened to find the best system for him with the Suns, he still would have been, at worst, a 15-8 player who is a good defender. But yes, he lucked out big time by playing in the run and gun system. He has arguably the worst looking jump shot I have ever seen. Its likes its a hot potato that he has to get out of his hands as fast as possible

Daze9900
11-18-2008, 11:04 PM
Okay calm down ppl he was good before Nash, able to represent his conference in all-star games and represented his country in Olympic games. It's called father time folks. Happens to the best of them. At some point they all start jumping lower, running slower. Injuries also play a big toll. The great players use their veteran savvy or focus on their best skills like becoming strictly jump shooters, shot blockers rebounders and such. He never was a great shooter with that style so once the athleticism is gone he will be left being a 5 tool player. Somebody is really good at few things but not great at one particular thing. Not a bad career for him and he made good money letting it do what it do.

Dmagic87
11-18-2008, 11:16 PM
What a ******** thread. Marion was an all star before nash. In fact, the trio of Marbury, Marion, and Stoudmire was actually pretty damn good. Marion is just not being utilized right. Add in the fact that he disappears in the 4th quarter. Put him on the spurs or jazz and he will excell.

Hawkeye15
11-18-2008, 11:17 PM
Okay calm down ppl he was good before Nash, able to represent his conference in all-star games and represented his country in Olympic games. It's called father time folks. Happens to the best of them. At some point they all start jumping lower, running slower. Injuries also play a big toll. The great players use their veteran savvy or focus on their best skills like becoming strictly jump shooters, shot blockers rebounders and such. He never was a great shooter with that style so once the athleticism is gone he will be left being a 5 tool player. Somebody is really good at few things but not great at one particular thing. Not a bad career for him and he made good money letting it do what it do.

Before Nash, who was his point guard? Oh, thats right, Jason Kidd, with Marbury's career years sprinkled in between. Point is, Marion has been more than fortunate to play with a great point guard, and in a system that benefited his skills, which were basically, freak athletic ability, and not much else. Now, that being said, he lived up to that ability, and played as well as he could have. He has had a great career, but lets not mistake him for a franchise player, at any point of his career. He is simply a great role player, on a team that is focused on getting up and down the floor, and trying to force mismatches. He is not an a-typical player on a championship team.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 11:18 PM
When did you start watching basketball? Marion was very good without Nash. His best season was without Nash (21 and 10).

HiphopRelated
11-18-2008, 11:19 PM
anybody with any sense knew he wouldn't be the 2nd option with Beasley there.

secondly, the system made everybody look good. Nash is back down to his good but far from great Dallas numbers.

Daze9900
11-18-2008, 11:20 PM
*Also note the D'antoni system effect. Marion was never one of those guys you run plays for. No backdoor plays or pick n rolls. He excelled with his athleticism with offensive rebounding and mid-range to corner 3pt shooting. In the D'Antoni system you get crazy opportunities on the offensive end. Miami for the most part is a grind it out eastern style team so those put backs loose ball type bucket opportunities are not present. The best way to evaluate Marion is to see if his rebounding numbers are way down. Thats a hustle stat.

Hawkeye15
11-18-2008, 11:33 PM
When did you start watching basketball? Marion was very good without Nash. His best season was without Nash (21 and 10).

correct, and he played with Marbury, who averaged 22-8 that year, and made 3rd team all NBA, in the same year that D'Antonio was named head coach about 20 games in. Point is, if you think Marion was ever a franchise player, you are mistaken. Amare's great rookie year probably didn't hurt either

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 11:46 PM
correct, and he played with Marbury, who averaged 22-8 that year, and made 3rd team all NBA, in the same year that D'Antonio was named head coach about 20 games in. Point is, if you think Marion was ever a franchise player, you are mistaken. Amare's great rookie year probably didn't hurt either

What are you talking about? The question clearly states "because of Steve Nash." I was merely answering the question and I was correct in my answer. It never asked because of great point guards. Understand the question before you answer it.

Hawkeye15
11-18-2008, 11:51 PM
What are you talking about? The question clearly states "because of Steve Nash." I was merely answering the question and I was correct in my answer. It never asked because of great point guards. Understand the question before you answer it.

eh, its cool man. I was only posting your response, not talking smack to you, my b. My point is, no, he would not have been considered what he is, if he didn't have a top 5 point in the NBA every single year but now

Jaji
11-19-2008, 12:19 AM
He was always a good player. He average over 20 ppg before Nash got to the Suns. That right there makes this whole thread pointless.

JordansBulls
11-19-2008, 12:21 AM
Marion had good numbers before Nash came aboard.

ink
11-19-2008, 12:54 AM
eh, its cool man. I was only posting your response, not talking smack to you, my b. My point is, no, he would not have been considered what he is, if he didn't have a top 5 point in the NBA every single year but now

Best point made in the thread.

DreamShaker
11-19-2008, 01:01 AM
When did you start watching basketball? Marion was very good without Nash. His best season was without Nash (21 and 10).

Actually he had the same scoring average and 12 boards a game on over 50% shooting in 06 with Nash as opposed to the 45% he shot in the season you mentioned so in reality he got better shots with Nash but his scoring average was about the same....also with the amount of possessions the Suns had with the run and gun system he got more rebounds....but that's just being nit-picky....he was an All-Star without Nash....

Diehardheatfan
11-19-2008, 01:15 AM
I think Shawn Marion is a product of Steve Nash and Mike D'Antoni offense. He is now on a team where he is suppose to be the second best player. He is not putting up great numbers this season or since he has been with the Heat.


What do you guys think?

This year stats averages
8 games - 10.3 pts - 8.4 rebounds - 1 assits - 1.2 STL - 2.1 BLK
45.9% FG
Last years 16 games with Heat (no d wade)
14.3 pts - 11.2 rebounds - 2.5 assists - 1.9 stls - .9 blk
45.2% FG
Since he has been with the Heat he has averaged his lowest points per game since his rookie season.

While he was in PHX he was shooting 52 to 53% FG in his last three seasons.

I agree

Diehardheatfan
11-19-2008, 01:16 AM
Best point made in the thread.

Definetly. A point i was making years ago when he had nash and marbury

JayW_1023
11-19-2008, 05:30 AM
The Suns has more possessions and more of a transition game, where Marion excells at.

The Heat play more half court, where Marions offense is less effective because the lanes are clogged.

cahawk
11-19-2008, 05:31 AM
Marion is good but was even better with Suns offense & Nash in his prime.
Alot of players looked better than they were because of teammates.
Marion, Pippen, kobe, ect. all benifited from this.

rhino17
11-19-2008, 05:32 AM
Marion is easily the most overrated player in the nba. Of all the players that have ever played with Steve Nash, I believe Shawn Marion is the one that simply sucks *** without him. Amare could do stuff on his own but shawn marion is just an average nba player

Chronz
11-19-2008, 05:59 AM
Well he is entering his 30's and unlike most players he doesnt really have the skills to fall back, the fact that hes playing on an average paced squad is only exasperating his decline, that doesnt mean he wasnt good before Nash but yes Nash made him hella better.

Apophis
11-19-2008, 06:01 AM
Yes he was only good because of Nash...rofl.... :rolleyes: SO I say... Send him off to the Knicks and no one will have to worry about him again... :eyebrow:

fairandbalanced
11-19-2008, 09:38 AM
I'll not give Nash too much credit for Marion's succes with the Suns, i'll give Coach D'Antoni a lot of credit though. Which is why I think NY should make a 3 way trade.

Heat gets Cris Kaman, Knicks get Marion and Clippers get Randolf.

daleja424
11-19-2008, 11:25 AM
anyone knocking Marion is an idiot. Watch a Heat game and you will see how valuable a player he is. Were his offensive numbers inflated with Nash at PG? Yes. But Marion is still a beast on defense, blocking shots, getting steals, running the break, grabbing rebounds, etc. Not everyone in the NBA can be great at everything. Jason Kidd for example is one of the best PG's ever, but the dude couldn't hit an open shot if his life depended on it. Doesn't mean we say Kidd sucks? NO, b/c he did so many other things amazingly. Its the same with Marion. People who don't respect what Marion brings to a team don't understand basketball... PERIOD!

Kabowdos
11-19-2008, 11:29 AM
When did you start watching basketball? Marion was very good without Nash. His best season was without Nash (21 and 10).

Are you watching basketball right now?

Marions looks like crap...

Kabowdos
11-19-2008, 11:32 AM
anyone knocking Marion is an idiot. Watch a Heat game and you will see how valuable a player he is. Were his offensive numbers inflated with Nash at PG? Yes. But Marion is still a beast on defense, blocking shots, getting steals, running the break, grabbing rebounds, etc. Not everyone in the NBA can be great at everything. Jason Kidd for example is one of the best PG's ever, but the dude couldn't hit an open shot if his life depended on it. Doesn't mean we say Kidd sucks? NO, b/c he did so many other things amazingly. Its the same with Marion. People who don't respect what Marion brings to a team don't understand basketball... PERIOD!

I don't think he sucks but I don't think he is as good as everyone thought he was. He wanted HUGE HUGE money from the Suns that was undeserving. Bottom LINE.

He is now with the Heat and not really make the biggest impact. His numbers have fallen since leaving the Suns. You would think they would get better since he doesn't have Amare, Shaq, Hill, Bell, Nash, Barbosa on the squad.

Marion is decent basketball player NOTHING MORE.....PERIOD!!!
He is not an all-star and never will make the all-star team again in his career.

daleja424
11-19-2008, 11:48 AM
I don't think he sucks but I don't think he is as good as everyone thought he was. He wanted HUGE HUGE money from the Suns that was undeserving. Bottom LINE.

He is now with the Heat and not really make the biggest impact. His numbers have fallen since leaving the Suns. You would think they would get better since he doesn't have Amare, Shaq, Hill, Bell, Nash, Barbosa on the squad.

Marion is decent basketball player NOTHING MORE.....PERIOD!!!
He is not an all-star and never will make the all-star team again in his career.

Before you make a stupid *** claim watch a heat game bra. Marion is critical to what the Heat does one defense and on the boards. When the Heat were missing Marion for a game a week ago they looked awful. Marion covers up the blown assignments of Beasley and Anthony and grabs boards like a center. Marion is also guarding the best player each night. Marion is more then a role player. He is the key to our defense and competitiveness on the boards every night...

gcoll
11-19-2008, 12:01 PM
Marion is a very good player. Not all that skilled of a player, but makes up for it with his athleticism.

But I think the Suns are better off with the trade they made. Shaq is playing well. And Barnes has filled in for a lot of what Marion brought to the table. So we got rid of Marion. Replaced him with Shaq + a poor man's version of Marion.

mrblisterdundee
11-19-2008, 12:35 PM
Steve Nash definitely got him the rock so he could average so many points.

JayW_1023
11-19-2008, 12:47 PM
In Miami, Marion is more of a super role player than a star...he is a very active body that doesn't need to create his own offense to be dangerous. He is not a guy who can create his own offense off the dribble like many other star swing men. But not many star swing men can't play as well OFF the ball as Marion too.

On defense however he still makes plays and rebounds...it's still remarkable how active he is, although he isn't as much as a lockdown defender. He is more a help defender, who plays passing lanes. One of his biggest strengths is enforcing in double teams and still recover quick enough to bother perimeter shots in the process.

Offensively Marion is pretty overrated and strictly a finisher, but his ability to score in transition and play defense makes him a one of a kind player. He is still valuable...even though his offense suffers with the absence of a legit playmaking guard.

Before Nash came Phoenix was still a fast paced team...so his averages didn't suffer much...however Nash as floor general made him a more efficient player on offense because he could just play off the ball and finish in transition and therefor have more spring on the defensive end.

ink
11-19-2008, 01:07 PM
It's ironic that Marion wanted out of PHX because he wasn't getting the star treatment, only to become the "super role player" in Miami.

Chronz
11-19-2008, 03:59 PM
Before you make a stupid *** claim watch a heat game bra. Marion is critical to what the Heat does one defense and on the boards. When the Heat were missing Marion for a game a week ago they looked awful. Marion covers up the blown assignments of Beasley and Anthony and grabs boards like a center. Marion is also guarding the best player each night. Marion is more then a role player. He is the key to our defense and competitiveness on the boards every night...
Problem is he used to to that and more, hes clearly declining before our eyes.

daleja424
11-19-2008, 07:03 PM
Problem is he used to to that and more, hes clearly declining before our eyes.

I dont doubt that... but that has nothing to do with the fact that people said Marion was never good he was a product of a good PG. For 10 years he has been a relentless do it all. Nash did not improve his rebounding, blocks, steals, defense, leaping ability etc... the things that really make Marion the player we all know...

KobeIs
11-19-2008, 07:18 PM
No, I still remember when the Suns use to be his team. Dude was damn good.

ATX
11-19-2008, 07:22 PM
I dont doubt that... but that has nothing to do with the fact that people said Marion was never good he was a product of a good PG. For 10 years he has been a relentless do it all. Nash did not improve his rebounding, blocks, steals, defense, leaping ability etc... the things that really make Marion the player we all know...

:clap:

Kabowdos
11-19-2008, 07:42 PM
Before you make a stupid *** claim watch a heat game bra. Marion is critical to what the Heat does one defense and on the boards. When the Heat were missing Marion for a game a week ago they looked awful. Marion covers up the blown assignments of Beasley and Anthony and grabs boards like a center. Marion is also guarding the best player each night. Marion is more then a role player. He is the key to our defense and competitiveness on the boards every night...

It's clear you a riding Marion because he is on the Heat and you are a Heat fan.

It is clear Marion input to the game is has fallen. He isn't putting up the same numbers now that he is on a worse team? He fit the Suns system and benefited greatly from Nash. His defense is good but nothing spectacular. He overachieved in PHX and it is showing us right now. He is not a good scorer.

Marion is a good defensive player and rebounder. He is similar to Trevor Ariza on the Lakers. He doesn't create anything on offense and doesn't make or break the defense of a team.

daleja424
11-19-2008, 07:46 PM
It's clear you a riding Marion because he is on the Heat and you are a Heat fan.

It is clear Marion input to the game is has fallen. He isn't putting up the same numbers now that he is on a worse team? He fit the Suns system and benefited greatly from Nash. His defense is good but nothing spectacular. He overachieved in PHX and it is showing us right now. He is not a good scorer.

Marion is a good defensive player and rebounder. He is similar to Trevor Ariza on the Lakers. He doesn't create anything on offense and doesn't make or break the defense of a team.

dude...dont talk what you don't know. Spoelstra has said in several interviews that Marion is the key to the Heats defense. Without Marion the Heats defense is below average. With him they are one of the best defenses in the league for creating turnovers and limiting points...

Nash may have gotten Marion an extra 6 points when he was with Phoenix... but Nash didn't have an influence on any of Marions other skills..

Chronz
11-20-2008, 04:19 PM
dude...dont talk what you don't know. Spoelstra has said in several interviews that Marion is the key to the Heats defense. Without Marion the Heats defense is below average. With him they are one of the best defenses in the league for creating turnovers and limiting points...

Nash may have gotten Marion an extra 6 points when he was with Phoenix... but Nash didn't have an influence on any of Marions other skills..

Holy **** your right, I just looked up Marion's on-court/off-court influence and the raw numbers are staggering.

The Heat give up 100.6PTSx100 Poss. with Marion, and 112.4 without Marion. Thats damn near a 12PT difference, regardless of how early in the season this is impressive to say the least. Its up there with Bynum's influence.

The bad part is that hes a non-factor offensively.

domenicd
11-20-2008, 05:00 PM
Everyone is a product of their team mates...Nash's assist total was also helped with talented/efficient 3 point shooters over the years and super athletes, but Marion wasn't good because of Nash (maybe a little better)...Marion is talented because of this defense which Nash has no clue about. How many 6"7 guys can average 10+rebounds, 2 steals and 1.5 blocks and can cover well at the 2-3-4 positions. It is funny that Nash won 2 MVPs and he was never as good as Chris Paul already is and he wasn't even able to win the MVP last year.

Problem is most of you Marion haters only think about points when you think a player is good and defense wins...and Marion can play defense. Anyways, I am not saying that Marion is better than Nash, but I think the point is that Marion can play super with a good point guard and that is the case with any good player (as mentioned, Marion put up super numbers before Nash was there)...they all need a good point guard to give them the ball in good spots

Overall, Marion's scoring numbers are only down because he is taking less shots (6 less than when he scored 21pts/gm

Bricklayer
11-20-2008, 05:25 PM
I don't think the point of this thread is to insult Marion, it's more so paying homage to a great point guard. Guys like Bell, Q-Rich, Diaw, Marion and Amare all benefit from Steve Nash at some point in there career, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Look at Kenyon Martin's nubers when Kidd was dishing him the ball, much better then his cuurent numbers in Denver....but that doesn't mean he's not a valuable player.

Just a side note, it seems like in every thread I read now some posts something like "pointless thread" or "Close thread" When did this become the cool thing to do? If you don't agree with a thread, then simply don't post, there is no need to leave ignorant comments.

haircanada
11-20-2008, 05:30 PM
noooo

Hawkeye15
11-20-2008, 06:34 PM
I dont doubt that... but that has nothing to do with the fact that people said Marion was never good he was a product of a good PG. For 10 years he has been a relentless do it all. Nash did not improve his rebounding, blocks, steals, defense, leaping ability etc... the things that really make Marion the player we all know...

not true. He was in the perfect system with a top point guard every year. He was a freak athlete, but if he would have played in a system that was slowed down, he would not have had the success he has had. I think I said it early on, if he were to play with an average point, in his prime, 15-8, good defender. That is a good player. But he was an all star because of the system he played in, and the fact that he had a top level point guard every single year he played, until now.

Bulls4Lyfe
11-23-2008, 01:56 AM
Don't look now, but the Matrix is starting to fit in with the Heat.

He has posted the following numbers in the past 2 games:

vs. IND: 18 pts, 9 rbs, 6 steals, 4 assists
vs. TOR: 20 pts, 14 rbs

I guess sometimes it takes a few games before a player gets accustomed to a new team after only having played with 1 other team in his entire career. And I'm sure that was compounded by the fact that Miami's and Phoenix's systems are so different.

Thoughts?

daleja424
11-23-2008, 01:58 AM
Don't look now, but the Matrix is starting to fit in with the Heat.

He has posted the following numbers in the past 2 games:

vs. IND: 18 pts, 9 rbs, 6 steals, 4 assists
vs. TOR: 20 pts, 14 assists

I guess sometimes it takes a few games before a player gets accustomed to a new team after only having played with 1 other team in his entire career. And I'm sure that was compounded by the fact that Miami's and Phoenix's systems are so different.

Thoughts?

rebs


but ya... Marion is meshing much better now and is actually creating for himself and other... I know I know...I was shocked too...