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oldenpolynice
11-17-2008, 03:27 PM
Is Bargnani an inspired choice at the '3' spot for Toronto? Or just a one-game replacement who happened to do well?

http://davissportsdeli.com/wordpress/2008/11/17/sunday-update-bargnanis-time-to-shine/


At his wits end with former starter Jamario Moon, Mitchell decided to start Bargnani at the 3 spot against the Heat on Sunday. It proved to be an inspired choice. Bargs played the entire first quarter and dominated Miamiís small forwards with a series of low-post moves and outside shots.

Other than Dirk Nowitzki and Spencer Hawes, Bargnani is the most versatile offensive big man in the league. He has good touch on his outside shot. Heís effective in the post. And he runs the floor well.

Thatís the Ďprosí list. But itís well-documented that Bargs comes with a set of Ďconsí as well. Weak defender. Poor positioning on rebounds. Suspect decision-making skills.

On the last count, Bargnani is making definite progress. His passes were crisp and correct on Sunday and he wasnít taking ill-advised shots.

As for the other two weaknesses, starting Bargs at the Ď3′ helps out a lot. When heís at the small forward, Bargnani can use his size more effectively to make up for defensive mistakes while letting Jermaine OíNeal and Chris Bosh clog up the middle. With his length, he can also alter a lot of shots on the perimeter.

uchiha
11-17-2008, 03:28 PM
who cares

IndyRealist
11-17-2008, 03:32 PM
It's about time they considered this. When KG came into the league he played SF as well, because he didn't have the strength to defend in the middle. Bargs plays like a big wing anyway, might as well put him there.

oldenpolynice
11-17-2008, 03:33 PM
who cares

Bargnani has been lame for two years. This may be the change that pulls him out of that. He's a former #1 pick overall. That makes him a topic of interest.

Jwizel_hitshrs
11-17-2008, 03:37 PM
who cares

Who cares for your 'who cares'?

Sixerlover
11-17-2008, 03:40 PM
Might as well try it out. This might be the place where he'll thrive and if not your right back to where you are now.

Wishing you drafted LaMarcus or Brandon

JC_
11-17-2008, 03:46 PM
He's been playing pretty well off the bench this year at whatever position he's put at but it is definately interesting having Bosh, Oneal and Bargnani in the starting lineup.

marvILLous
11-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Might as well try it out. This might be the place where he'll thrive and if not your right back to where you are now.

Wishing you drafted LaMarcus or Brandon

brandon royyyy :(

and iguodala

JAZZNC
11-17-2008, 03:50 PM
I would have to agree with the "who cares" statements. Bargs is a vey underperforming #1 pick that nobody really even gives any attention to. He's just not that good period, he's not Dirk and never will be.

ink
11-17-2008, 04:08 PM
^ He's made surprising progress this year. Even the most devout Bargnani haters in the Raps forum are complimenting his play. ;)

Gibby23
11-17-2008, 04:09 PM
Other than Dirk Nowitzki and Spencer Hawes, Bargnani is the most versatile offensive big man in the league.


That is funny right there.

JAZZNC
11-17-2008, 04:11 PM
You don't draft a guy #1 to play off the bench or to force your HC to play him "out of position" so to speak. A #1 pick is supposed to PLAY. There's a reason they brought in JO.

MiamiHeat
11-17-2008, 04:12 PM
raptors forum??

but okay...

SteveNash
11-17-2008, 04:43 PM
It's hard to listen to anyone who says Dirk Nowitzki, Spencer Hawes and Andrea Bargnani are the most versatile big men in the NBA.

SensandRaps
11-17-2008, 04:52 PM
^^ lol :p

Sixerlover
11-17-2008, 04:52 PM
Very true.

_Sn1P3r_
11-17-2008, 05:44 PM
It was a positive result for one game so we'll see if this could keep up.

oldenpolynice
11-17-2008, 06:13 PM
It's hard to listen to anyone who says Dirk Nowitzki, Spencer Hawes and Andrea Bargnani are the most versatile big men in the NBA.

Versatile in terms of offensive attack. Those guys are all effective from anywhere on the court. Certainly not on defense. But on offense those three guys are very talented.

SteveNash
11-17-2008, 07:06 PM
Versatile in terms of offensive attack. Those guys are all effective from anywhere on the court. Certainly not on defense. But on offense those three guys are very talented.

Yes because Hawes' 12 PPG and Bargnani's 10 PPG prove how effective they are on offense. Jump shooting bigmen isn't exactly a talent that should be praised anyone. At best Bargnani becomes Radmanovic. Hawes becomes the next Troy Murphy.

DerekRE_3
11-17-2008, 07:24 PM
Other than Dirk Nowitzki and Spencer Hawes, Bargnani is the most versatile offensive big man in the league.


That is funny right there.

Have you seen him play? He's a legit 7 footer who can hit hooks in the post, shoot mid range and 3 point shots, and not to mention, was 4th in the league in blocks before last night, all while only getting around 25 mpg. As a starter he averaged almost a double double and shot 75% from the 3 point line (as a Center!!)

Mile High Champ
11-17-2008, 08:49 PM
people can say Bargnani has underperformed in his career but he is certainly talented. He is one of the more talented bigs in the game. I really think he could put it together this year.

prash
11-18-2008, 12:35 AM
I was at the game. Bargnani played well. He was good defensively as well. Those 3 should be starting every game.

DerekRE_3
11-18-2008, 01:26 AM
Yes because Hawes' 12 PPG and Bargnani's 10 PPG prove how effective they are on offense. Jump shooting bigmen isn't exactly a talent that should be praised anyone. At best Bargnani becomes Radmanovic. Hawes becomes the next Troy Murphy.

Please tell me how many times you have seen Hawes play? And no, he isn't Troy Murphy, because he has a great post game and has great footword for a 20 year old Center. He is one of the most fundamentally sound and skilled 20 year old Centers I have ever seen. And yes, he gets 12 ppg...off the bench. He also gets you 8-9 rebounds. Oh, and did I mention he is 20?

SteveNash
11-18-2008, 01:46 AM
Please tell me how many times you have seen Hawes play? And no, he isn't Troy Murphy, because he has a great post game and has great footword for a 20 year old Center. He is one of the most fundamentally sound and skilled 20 year old Centers I have ever seen. And yes, he gets 12 ppg...off the bench. He also gets you 8-9 rebounds. Oh, and did I mention he is 20?

I haven't watched him that much with the Kings but I watched him in college and thought that the Bulls were completely stupid for not taking him over Noah at the time of the draft when many people were still high on Noah.

This year I've only seen him play against Detroit, and while he was good, I wouldn't put him in the top 3 offensively versatile big men in the game. And maybe if you took off your fan goggles for a minute, you could actually ask yourself why such a great player is coming off the bench, I mean if he really is in the top 3, shouldn't he be their franchise player starting every game instead of having old players with not much of a future in Moore and Miller?

Big R
11-18-2008, 06:03 AM
everyone should of known from the start that he was going to be a bust, never draft a 7 footer with the body frame of allen iverson and whos a "shooter" especially with the 1st pick

DerekRE_3
11-18-2008, 06:24 AM
I haven't watched him that much with the Kings but I watched him in college and thought that the Bulls were completely stupid for not taking him over Noah at the time of the draft when many people were still high on Noah.

This year I've only seen him play against Detroit, and while he was good, I wouldn't put him in the top 3 offensively versatile big men in the game. And maybe if you took off your fan goggles for a minute, you could actually ask yourself why such a great player is coming off the bench, I mean if he really is in the top 3, shouldn't he be their franchise player starting every game instead of having old players with not much of a future in Moore and Miller?

Tell me when I said he was one of the top 3 versatile big men in the league? I never said that at all. What I did say was that he was one of the most fundamentally sound and skilled 20 year old big man that I have seen in awhile.

And you obviously don't know much about the Kings. Moore and Miller our future? Have you heard of Jason Thompson? Speaking of versatile, Thompson is a 6'11 PF who can also play SF (he started at SF while Martin was out)and Center. This guy can run the floor, rebound, play in the post, hit mid range shots, and drive to the basket. Our future frontcourt is Thompson and Hawes, not to mention the fact that Kevin Martin continues to improve every year. Add in Donte Greene, a swingmen who at 6'9 has great length and was a great scorer in college and has a ton of potential, 2 1st round picks next year (1 for sure to be a lottery pick), and about 25 million in cap room freed up for the 2010 free agent class, I'd say the Kings have a pretty good future.

And I can tell you why Theus doesn't start Hawes over Miller. Brad Miller runs the Kings offense. He is a very gifted passer and without him our offense isn't nearly as effective. He takes the pressure off of Beno and makes great passes to our cutters.

jaysfan4ever
11-18-2008, 08:35 AM
everyone should of known from the start that he was going to be a bust, never draft a 7 footer with the body frame of allen iverson and whos a "shooter" especially with the 1st pick

Actually his problem is that he doesn't have the body frame of allen iverson, cuz if he did, he'd be a great SF, a rashard lewis, jeff green type. His problem is that he's too big, and a bit too slow to guard most SF's in the league. As a perimeter defender he should be fine, but the Raps are expecting a lot from JO & Bosh to cover for his mistakes, and if the Raps are playing against a run & gun offense, he's toast, cuz he's too slow on defence to guard SF's in transition.

Oh, and to note, those comparisons with Dirk are a lot more accurate than most people think, because he's almost as athletic to be an effective slasher (just needs to work on his agility and footwork), is a great shooter, and with his build, he should be able to have an effective post game, if he perfects his post skills. He is definitely very talented though, just still raw.

SeoulBeatz
11-18-2008, 09:51 AM
Tell me when I said he was one of the top 3 versatile big men in the league? I never said that at all. What I did say was that he was one of the most fundamentally sound and skilled 20 year old big man that I have seen in awhile.

And you obviously don't know much about the Kings. Moore and Miller our future? Have you heard of Jason Thompson? Speaking of versatile, Thompson is a 6'11 PF who can also play SF (he started at SF while Martin was out)and Center. This guy can run the floor, rebound, play in the post, hit mid range shots, and drive to the basket. Our future frontcourt is Thompson and Hawes, not to mention the fact that Kevin Martin continues to improve every year. Add in Donte Greene, a swingmen who at 6'9 has great length and was a great scorer in college and has a ton of potential, 2 1st round picks next year (1 for sure to be a lottery pick), and about 25 million in cap room freed up for the 2010 free agent class, I'd say the Kings have a pretty good future.

And I can tell you why Theus doesn't start Hawes over Miller. Brad Miller runs the Kings offense. He is a very gifted passer and without him our offense isn't nearly as effective. He takes the pressure off of Beno and makes great passes to our cutters.



good post bro.

ive seen a few kings games (one of my roomates is a sactown fan)

Hawes and Thompson are both very impressive players and u guys are set in the frontcourt for years to come.


As for the whole Bargnani thing, I think his potential could be a poor mans dirk.

Maybe even some 17-6 averages if he keeps this up. We really havent seen what this kid can do and Im sure Dirk recieved the SAME kind of hate when he was a young gun.

In most cases, it takes time to develope talent.

Did anyone in portland think that Jermaine Oneal would put up career averages of 20-10 while only averaging 5-2-1 in his first 2 seasons?


ill wait....

Sixerlover
11-18-2008, 10:34 AM
As for the whole Bargnani thing, I think his potential could be a poor mans dirk.

Maybe even some 17-6 averages if he keeps this up. We really havent seen what this kid can do and Im sure Dirk recieved the SAME kind of hate when he was a young gun.

In most cases, it takes time to develope talent.

Did anyone in portland think that Jermaine Oneal would put up career averages of 20-10 while only averaging 5-2-1 in his first 2 seasons?


ill wait....

But for every Jermaine O'Neal case there is 10 Kwame Brown, Nickoloz Tskitishvili, Rodney White, Kedrick Brown, Marcus Fizer etc players who are drafted high and never really amount to anything. Finding which side Bargnani is on right now is up in the air really.

Nexus
11-18-2008, 11:04 AM
It made sense against Miami who plays three taller forwards at the 3, 4 and 5 spots. Bargs is a guy who needs his touches. As for weak defender, I think he's shedding that label every game. Same story with him being someone who takes ill-advised shots. He's driving the lane more often. His rebounding still stinks, but that's why they brought in JO. Overall, I think it might work with some teams and not with others.

What people aren't talking about here is Moon coming off the bench. Here's a guy who jacks up 2-3 three point bricks a game when he's getting starter's minutes. Coming off the bench he's driving more, playing with lots of energy, defending hard.

So if Bargs needs touches to get in his rhythm and Moon needs to have to earn his playing time to drive the lane and stop throwing up bricks...I say maintain the experiment.

footballbizz
11-18-2008, 11:28 AM
I like him a lot and I really think he will finally make a big impact in the league....

www.saqueneutral.blogspot.com/2008/11/nbaspain-and-rookies-this-article-is.html

JC_
11-18-2008, 11:43 AM
What people aren't talking about here is Moon coming off the bench. Here's a guy who jacks up 2-3 three point bricks a game when he's getting starter's minutes. Coming off the bench he's driving more, playing with lots of energy, defending hard.

So if Bargs needs touches to get in his rhythm and Moon needs to have to earn his playing time to drive the lane and stop throwing up bricks...I say maintain the experiment.

Moon is 9-22 for 3pt'ers which really isn't that bad (better avg than Jose and Parker at this point) and his fg% is .479 but I do agree with you that coming off the bench seems to be good for him.

Nexus
11-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Moon is 9-22 for 3pt'ers which really isn't that bad (better avg than Jose and Parker at this point) and his fg% is .479 but I do agree with you that coming off the bench seems to be good for him.

Two to three bricks a game was an exaggeration but there's a difference between a brick and a well-advised three. Moon will take an advised open three when he gets the chance, yes, but he will also throw up a few with a hand in his face and 12 seconds left on the shot clock. Also, Moon wont keep up with whatever percentage 9-22 is.

Frank Costanza
11-18-2008, 01:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank was at the game and ill tel lyou i couldnt have been happier than when i saw sam finally bench his love child moon and go with the tri towers lineup weve all been waiting for, we are blessed to be playing orlando today meaning sam will have to keep that lineup cause of turk and then we play mia agaain and we beat them so sam has to keep the lineup for that game, that all being said i think this could be our new lineup if it works in this backto back the way it did sunday

SteveNash
11-18-2008, 02:46 PM
Tell me when I said he was one of the top 3 versatile big men in the league? I never said that at all. What I did say was that he was one of the most fundamentally sound and skilled 20 year old big man that I have seen in awhile.

The original article said that.

"Other than Dirk Nowitzki and Spencer Hawes, Bargnani is the most versatile offensive big man in the league. He has good touch on his outside shot. He’s effective in the post. And he runs the floor well."

Try to actually read the thread before you become defensive.


And you obviously don't know much about the Kings. Moore and Miller our future? Have you heard of Jason Thompson? Speaking of versatile, Thompson is a 6'11 PF who can also play SF (he started at SF while Martin was out)and Center. This guy can run the floor, rebound, play in the post, hit mid range shots, and drive to the basket. Our future frontcourt is Thompson and Hawes not to mention the fact that Kevin Martin continues to improve every year. Add in Donte Greene, a swingmen who at 6'9 has great length and was a great scorer in college and has a ton of potential, 2 1st round picks next year (1 for sure to be a lottery pick), and about 25 million in cap room freed up for the 2010 free agent class, I'd say the Kings have a pretty good future.

Read again, what I said was "having old players with not much of a future in Moore and Miller?" Kings aren't going anywhere this year so why not develop their young talent. Brad Miller maybe, but certainly not Mikki Moore which goes against you saying how great Hawes is.


And I can tell you why Theus doesn't start Hawes over Miller. Brad Miller runs the Kings offense. He is a very gifted passer and without him our offense isn't nearly as effective. He takes the pressure off of Beno and makes great passes to our cutters.

Your team sucks right now and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Even if you have cap space in 2010, how many players want to actually come there? Your offense sucks, you can barely win any games, you're not going to make the playoffs. Hawes is soft and would rather shoot jumpshots than play in the post an attribute I guess all Kings players have to acquire which is probably why is probably why the Kings' defining moment is crying about getting beat by the Lakers. I'm guessing Theus is playing Mikki Moore because he's the only player on your team that resembles a man in terms of toughness and attitude.

DerekRE_3
11-18-2008, 03:13 PM
The original article said that.

"Other than Dirk Nowitzki and Spencer Hawes, Bargnani is the most versatile offensive big man in the league. He has good touch on his outside shot. He’s effective in the post. And he runs the floor well."

Try to actually read the thread before you become defensive.



Read again, what I said was "having old players with not much of a future in Moore and Miller?" Kings aren't going anywhere this year so why not develop their young talent. Brad Miller maybe, but certainly not Mikki Moore which goes against you saying how great Hawes is.



Your team sucks right now and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. Even if you have cap space in 2010, how many players want to actually come there? Your offense sucks, you can barely win any games, you're not going to make the playoffs. Hawes is soft and would rather shoot jumpshots than play in the post an attribute I guess all Kings players have to acquire which is probably why is probably why the Kings' defining moment is crying about getting beat by the Lakers. I'm guessing Theus is playing Mikki Moore because he's the only player on your team that resembles a man in terms of toughness and attitude.

Did I write the article? No. Did I mention the article in any way? No. I wasn't commenting on or agreeing with the article in any way. I was responding to you bashing Spencer Hawes with nothing backing it up, and now you are a bashing a team that is CLEARLY rebuolding. And Hawes is soft? He's 4th in the league in blocked shots and is already a very good rebounder. Also...he does play in the post, he just happens to also shoot jump shots. And wow...someone really hates the Kings. And yeah....Mikki Moore is the only guy on the team that plays with toughness and attitude...that's why the first 4 games he averaged 1 rebound a game. Mikki is gone after this year, and the only reason why he's starting is because Theus respects veterans and isn't going to give a rookie like Jason Thompson the starting job after 11 games. The same goes with Spencer Hawes. Miller is a 2 time all star, and is still productive. It's going to take a lot for Spence to take the job away from him. Also, with the cap room we are going to have, we don't need to sign a superstar to become relelvant again, because we have one of the best talent evaluators in the league in Geoff Petrie.

Halladay
11-18-2008, 03:24 PM
Love it how many people are saying Bargs is a bust. It's the guys third year in the league and he's a 7 footer. How many big men are all-star calibre players when they're in their early 20's? Yes Bargnani's first two years in the league were a teeder-todder but when this guy is on his game, you can see why he was the first overall pick. And the fact that there was no legit, obvious first overall pick in that draft I think it's pretty hard to fault the Raptors for taking him. Alot of people say it 2 or 3 years after the fact: we should've taken Roy or Aldridge. Well that's not fair, 20-20 hindsight. Bargnani is a unique player, and I love it how people think he's a 'bust' or whatever but have seen him play maybe 2 or 3 times. I know for a fact that Americans never see the Raptors play. The kid needs a few more years, we(raptors fans) knew he was a work in progress when we drafted him.

D-Amazins
11-18-2008, 03:34 PM
who cares

qft!

DerekRE_3
11-18-2008, 03:37 PM
Love it how many people are saying Bargs is a bust. It's the guys third year in the league and he's a 7 footer. How many big men are all-star calibre players when they're in their early 20's? Yes Bargnani's first two years in the league were a teeder-todder but when this guy is on his game, you can see why he was the first overall pick. And the fact that there was no legit, obvious first overall pick in that draft I think it's pretty hard to fault the Raptors for taking him. Alot of people say it 2 or 3 years after the fact: we should've taken Roy or Aldridge. Well that's not fair, 20-20 hindsight. Bargnani is a unique player, and I love it how people think he's a 'bust' or whatever but have seen him play maybe 2 or 3 times. I know for a fact that Americans never see the Raptors play. The kid needs a few more years, we(raptors fans) knew he was a work in progress when we drafted him.

The problem was people expected him to contribute right away. When you are picked that high, that is what people expect of you. Is it fair? No. What I do know is that Bargani has a very unique skill set and has the length and height to create matchup problems for other teams for a very long time.

SteveNash
11-18-2008, 05:43 PM
Did I write the article? No. Did I mention the article in any way? No. I wasn't commenting on or agreeing with the article in any way. I was responding to you bashing Spencer Hawes with nothing backing it up, and now you are a bashing a team that is CLEARLY rebuolding. And Hawes is soft? He's 4th in the league in blocked shots and is already a very good rebounder. Also...he does play in the post, he just happens to also shoot jump shots. And wow...someone really hates the Kings. And yeah....Mikki Moore is the only guy on the team that plays with toughness and attitude...that's why the first 4 games he averaged 1 rebound a game. Mikki is gone after this year, and the only reason why he's starting is because Theus respects veterans and isn't going to give a rookie like Jason Thompson the starting job after 11 games. The same goes with Spencer Hawes. Miller is a 2 time all star, and is still productive. It's going to take a lot for Spence to take the job away from him. Also, with the cap room we are going to have, we don't need to sign a superstar to become relelvant again, because we have one of the best talent evaluators in the league in Geoff Petrie.

I wasn't bashing Hawes, I just don't believe he's as great as you think he is. I'm guessing you think too highly of a lot of Kings players, which makes me question why they're 4-7.

Hawes is soft, he's shot nearly as many jumpshots on the perimeter than he's taken inside in the paint. He doesn't have the rebounding toughness of a Troy Murphy. Bargnani nearly blocks as many shots as Hawes does on a per minute basis.

And why would you need to sign anyone? I was under the impression from you that Hawes and Thompson are the next twin towers, the way you talk, the Kings have all the talent to win it all this year. Yet they're 4-7...

DerekRE_3
11-18-2008, 07:17 PM
I wasn't bashing Hawes, I just don't believe he's as great as you think he is. I'm guessing you think too highly of a lot of Kings players, which makes me question why they're 4-7.

Hawes is soft, he's shot nearly as many jumpshots on the perimeter than he's taken inside in the paint. He doesn't have the rebounding toughness of a Troy Murphy. Bargnani nearly blocks as many shots as Hawes does on a per minute basis.

And why would you need to sign anyone? I was under the impression from you that Hawes and Thompson are the next twin towers, the way you talk, the Kings have all the talent to win it all this year. Yet they're 4-7...

First off, I don't want us to win this year. I want us to develop the young guys, and get another lottery pick. Also, we may be 4-7, but we could easily be over .500 right now. We just need to work on closing out games. We could have very well beat Detroit, Phoenix, and San Antonio. Also, I never said that Hawes was great, I said he was pretty damn good considering how young he is. And Jason Thompson has the tools to become a very good player down the line, not right now. And nice job putting words in my mouth, saying that I think we have the talent to win it all this year, that is not what I am saying at all. I said that we have a good future, 3-4 years from now. I'm not sure how that sounds like "we are going to win it all this year."