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View Full Version : Magic Johnson considers Kobe the best in the game and says Paul Pierce is top 3-4



JordansBulls
11-17-2008, 12:57 PM
Source: Boston (http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2008/11/magic_kobe_is_b.html)



When asked whether Paul Pierce was the best player in the NBA right now, Johnson praised the Celtics forward but sided with the Lakers' Kobe Bryant.





"Paul would like to think he's better than Kobe," said Johnson with a hearty laugh. "But Kobe Bryant is the best closer in the game. He's the best player in the game. You have to remember he's done it for a long time at a high level. Now, was Paul Pierce better than Kobe in the Finals? Of course, he was better than everybody in the whole playoffs. Is he one of the top three or four players in the league right now, Paul Pierce? Of course he is. It's hard to find a guy who can go inside and outside and also a guy who can put it on the floor then make plays for other people. Yes, I think he's right up there with Kobe, right up there with LeBron. It's hard to pick one of those three guys.





"Kobe Bryant is the best player," said Johnson, pausing after each word for emphasis. "Paul is right there. They’re right there together. You can’t lose. If you decide to take Paul, you’re not going to lose. If you decide to take Kobe, you’re not going to lose.

BTownTeamsRKing
11-17-2008, 01:10 PM
agree with him

pebloemer
11-17-2008, 01:13 PM
agree with him

x2

NYKnickFanatic
11-17-2008, 01:16 PM
LeBron > Kobe. :nod:

superkegger
11-17-2008, 01:17 PM
sounds about right to me, but then again I'm a lakers and kobe fan.


LeBron > Kobe. :nod:
and here we go, the ugly turn towards who is better kobe or lebron...

Wilson
11-17-2008, 01:25 PM
I can't see this thread leading anywhere besides a Kobe vs LeBron vs Pierce debate, which won't really get us anywhere...

cambovenzi
11-17-2008, 01:30 PM
LeBron > Kobe. :nod:

psh.
Kobe can shoot ridiculously better, and play defense ridiculously better.

Faneik
11-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Finally some respect to The Truth.

Top 3-4 sounds about right.

still1ballin
11-17-2008, 01:51 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

Draco
11-17-2008, 01:54 PM
Lebron.

Faneik
11-17-2008, 01:55 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

Champion and Finals MVP --> i think that's proving something.

In that season that the Celtics had the best record, one of the reasons they lost so many games was b/c Pierce got injured for months. And he wasn't the only one.

Please don't talk about something you don't know.

JC_
11-17-2008, 02:04 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

Has Kobe ever won finals MVP? To be considered the best player in the NBA finals when you have guys like Garnett and Allen beside you is pretty huge.

still1ballin
11-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Champion and Finals MVP --> i think that's proving something.

In that season that the Celtics had the best record, one of the reasons they lost so many games was b/c Pierce got injured for months. And he wasn't the only one.

Please don't talk about something you don't know.

Okay, you're right, the Celtics 06-07 seaon, pierce only played half a season, but the year before that he played 79 games, in which you can say a whole season and his team only won 33 games. In 03-04 he played 80 games and his team won 36 games.

Also before celtics acquired garnett and allen, didn't he demand to be traded?

You take out Garnett and Allen out of the team and Pierce wouldn't be able to take his team into the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

Testaverde16
11-17-2008, 02:10 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

I agree, but he has proven something.

Pierce couln't lead that team anywhere on his own. The Celtics were perennial losers and all Pierce did was ***** and whine. Occasionally he and Antoine Walker would chuck enough 3s to get them into the playoffs, but there was nothing there for them.

Right now, Pierce is certainly playing like a beast, but he doesn't have my respect as a top 3-4 player in the game just yet.

As for the best in the game, statistically right now it is LeBron, but he needs a championship to get himself to the next level. His physical advantage is ridiculous, and that puts him in a better statistical place than Bryant. It also helps that his offense is run through him on almost every single play, while Phil Jackson tries to make the Lakers able to run a good amount of plays without Kobe.

So for now, Kobe is number one.

still1ballin
11-17-2008, 02:13 PM
Has Kobe ever won finals MVP? To be considered the best player in the NBA finals when you have guys like Garnett and Allen beside you is pretty huge.

No he hasn't. Want to know why? Because he had the most dominant center who was in his prime in his career. If you would take Kobe out of the lakers, i doubt shaq would be able to do a 3 peat so Kobe was a huge factor, shaq just put better numbers.

So would you consider Chauncy Billups top 3-4 player in the league since he was MVP? Hey! To be considered the best player in the NBA finals when you have guys like the DPOY in big ben, prince, hamilton, and rasheed beside you is pretty huge.

Faneik
11-17-2008, 02:16 PM
Okay, you're right, the Celtics 06-07 seaon, pierce only played half a season, but the year before that he played 79 games, in which you can say a whole season and his team only won 33 games. In 03-04 he played 80 games and his team won 36 games.

Also before celtics acquired garnett and allen, didn't he demand to be traded?

You take out Garnett and Allen out of the team and Pierce wouldn't be able to take his team into the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

Do you say these things so you can feel better b/c your team lost a championship with Garnett and Allen playing in Boston?...

Give it man...

They're there and they're not going anywhere.

still1ballin
11-17-2008, 02:18 PM
Do you say these things so you can feel better b/c your team lost a championship with Garnett and Allen playing in Boston?...

Give it man...

They're there and they're not going anywhere.

Weak....LOL this has nothing to do with the "LAKERS" losing to the celtics in the finals so don't change the subject. I guess you had no arguement to come up with so you accuse me of that. Pathetic

Faneik
11-17-2008, 02:21 PM
No man...You're pathetic.

You're the one that comes with ridiculous arguments:

"What if player A and B were not on that team? They would suck!"

That's just ridiculous talk!

still1ballin
11-17-2008, 02:34 PM
No man...You're pathetic.

You're the one that comes with ridiculous arguments:
"What if player A and B were not on that team? They would suck!"

That's just ridiculous talk!

If you think they are ridiculous then why are you replying to them? If you don't agree with me, or like what I said ignore it simple as that.

BTW no need to name call.:)

carter15
11-17-2008, 02:41 PM
stillballin is right on this one..pierce wasnt even top 20 until last season and now everyone thinks hes top 3-4

amare paul lebron kobe IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER id take 100000% over paul...thats just to show hes not top 3 or 4

theuuord
11-17-2008, 02:45 PM
speaking of Paul's who should be mentioned in top 3-4 NBA player discussions, chris is on the phone...

NYKnickFanatic
11-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Minus Garnett and Allen, Pierce is just a guy on the Celtics who can score.
I wouldnt even put him in my top 10 of best in the NBA today. :up:

NYKnickFanatic
11-17-2008, 02:48 PM
The only people who think Pierce is top 5, are Celtics fans.
When Magic said that about Pierce, he was having some beers, so you know...

NFLNBA
11-17-2008, 02:54 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

Completly agree with you here! Pierce didnt do a damn thing without Garnett and Allen all those years and was considered a hot shooter at times. When you get a garnett and Allen your gonna look a lot better. Kobe took a bunch of scrubs-kwame brown was there starting center to the playoffs for crying out load. You give the Grizzles garnett and Allen and Rudy Gay would look like a top 3-4 player also.

Lets see here shall we

Kobe -

3 Championships
10 Time Allstar - gonna be 11
NBA Most Valuable Player 2008
2 time NBA scoring Champion
All NBA 1st team 6 times
All Defensive 1st team 6 times
Allstar Game MVP
Slam Dunk Champion
81 Points in a game
Gold Medal in Olympics

Pierce -

6 Time Allstar
1 Championship
NBA Finals MVP


Wow.......they sure are close arnt they? Pierce isnt even the best player on his team. He is a top 10 player not 3-4 are you kidding me!

Kobe
James
Chris Paul
Duncan
Ming
T-Mac
Howard
Wade
Garnett

All Better players

still1ballin
11-17-2008, 02:56 PM
Do you think a top 3-4 player would allow a 37 win team in the atlanta hawks take them to a 7 game series? I think not!

Wake's Fastball
11-17-2008, 02:59 PM
Minus Garnett and Allen, Pierce is just a guy on the Celtics who can score.
I wouldnt even put him in my top 10 of best in the NBA today. :up:

Couldn't you say the same thing about any of the league's big names then? There hasn't been a superstar in 30 years that's won a title without a stellar supporting cast.

NYKnickFanatic
11-17-2008, 03:04 PM
Couldn't you say the same thing about any of the league's big names then? There hasn't been a superstar in 30 years that's won a title without a stellar supporting cast.

Pistons?

They didnt have any superstars...

Even the Spurs. I just see Tim Duncan as a big name on that team.

EricU812
11-17-2008, 03:05 PM
After the Magic hour he has lost all credibility.

BRADY4MVP
11-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Okay, you're right, the Celtics 06-07 seaon, pierce only played half a season, but the year before that he played 79 games, in which you can say a whole season and his team only won 33 games. In 03-04 he played 80 games and his team won 36 games.

Also before celtics acquired garnett and allen, didn't he demand to be traded?

You take out Garnett and Allen out of the team and Pierce wouldn't be able to take his team into the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

you were doing fine in your points until this last bit....

Pierce led the Celtics to the playoffs in 2002 for the first time in seven years and on to the Eastern Conference Finals. Unless Wikipedia is full of crap, that just proved you wrong, he even took them to the friggin finals...

Wake's Fastball
11-17-2008, 03:13 PM
Pistons?

They didnt have any superstars...

Even the Spurs. I just see Tim Duncan as a big name on that team.

Parker is/was one of the league's better point guards when they won the title. Manu was probably the best third option in the league.

Yeah, the Pistons didn't have any superstars either, but my point is that there aren't any stars in the league that have won a title by themselves. Pierce is getting killed here because he needed Ray and Garnett to bring a title to Boston. My point is that all the stars that have won a title had another stellar player or two playing alongside them when they won. Slamming Pierce for falling into that same category is ridiculous. Even the great Kobe racked up a 34-win season when playing with a terrible supporting cast.

theuuord
11-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Do you think a top 3-4 player would allow a 37 win team in the atlanta hawks take them to a 7 game series? I think not!

that's just a silly argument.

NYKnickFanatic
11-17-2008, 03:29 PM
Parker is/was one of the league's better point guards when they won the title. Manu was probably the best third option in the league.

Yeah, the Pistons didn't have any superstars either, but my point is that there aren't any stars in the league that have won a title by themselves. Pierce is getting killed here because he needed Ray and Garnett to bring a title to Boston. My point is that all the stars that have won a title had another stellar player or two playing alongside them when they won. Slamming Pierce for falling into that same category is ridiculous. Even the great Kobe racked up a 34-win season when playing with a terrible supporting cast.


Good points, good points.
But that will all change, when LeBron and the Cavs win it all this year.
Or does he have a superstar on his team too? :eyebrow:

BTownTeamsRKing
11-17-2008, 03:34 PM
lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.

the worst thing u can do is say your opponent sucks. u know why? bc if they beat u, wow u look greaaattt. so for the lakers fans saying Pierce isnt a top player, he outplayed Kobe in the finals like it or not. he covered him on defense and scored on him when kobe covered him.

Pierce led a furious 24 pt comeback in the staples center against your beloved kobe and one of the big reasons the Celtics won that game was Pierce stepping up at halftime saying he wants to cover Kobe and 24 minutes later, the lakers were dealt a loss they will never forget.

RESPECT YOUR OPPONENT. Pierce is a star player with confidence that fuels his game to the point that he competes head to head with anyone in the league.

Faneik
11-17-2008, 03:38 PM
lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.

the worst thing u can do is say your opponent sucks. u know why? bc if they beat u, wow u look greaaattt. so for the lakers fans saying Pierce isnt a top player, he outplayed Kobe in the finals like it or not. he covered him on defense and scored on him when kobe covered him.

Pierce led a furious 24 pt comeback in the staples center against your beloved kobe and one of the big reasons the Celtics won that game was Pierce stepping up at halftime saying he wants to cover Kobe and 24 minutes later, the lakers were dealt a loss they will never forget.

RESPECT YOUR OPPONENT. Pierce is a star player with confidence that fuels his game to the point that he competes head to head with anyone in the league.

Well said. :clap:

Joshtd1
11-17-2008, 03:41 PM
I love Pierce and hes always been one of my favorite players outside of the Spurs in the NBA, but I dont think he is a top 3-4 player. Top 10 is pretty arguable, but I would take Duncan/Kobe/LBJ/CP3 over him.

However though, people are saying that PP is super overrated now..I really dont think so. Alot of people seem to forget that he was a 25-6-5 a night type guy, and took his team to the confrence finals before with Antoine Walker.

JAZZNC
11-17-2008, 03:47 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

Name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on. Kobe had the most dominant player in the leauge when he got his first 3 titles as well as an assortment of the best aging vets in the league every year. What has he done without that? It took a gift from the Grizz to get that team to the top last year. It's not a one man game, you have to have a team around you. In all honesty, name me 4 people who are all around better players than Pierce....

JordansBulls
11-17-2008, 03:57 PM
No he hasn't. Want to know why? Because he had the most dominant center who was in his prime in his career. If you would take Kobe out of the lakers, i doubt shaq would be able to do a 3 peat so Kobe was a huge factor, shaq just put better numbers.

That's the reason the Lakers won because Shaq was dominating. Kobe had his part as well, but he still hasn't shown he can win as the best player on his own team yet. He still takes bad shots and takes wayyyy too many 3's. Teams double and triple him because they know they can force him to take those long 3's instead of doing what he should be doing and that is driving.



So would you consider Chauncy Billups top 3-4 player in the league since he was MVP? Hey! To be considered the best player in the NBA finals when you have guys like the DPOY in big ben, prince, hamilton, and rasheed beside you is pretty huge.

You mean the Lakers team that was heavily favored going into the finals and that had 4 total top 30 players all time?

http://www.nba.com/games/20040601/INDDET/recap.html



the Pistons eliminated the Pacers in six games and will face the heavily favored Los Angeles Lakers for the championship beginning Sunday.



As for Billups being a top 3-4 player it is no because he didn't dominate in the season as well. Finals MVP only becomes essential when you are clearly a player that dominates in the season which means a top 5-10 player who puts up the numbers and is the major factor for the team winning.

carter15
11-17-2008, 03:57 PM
Do you think a top 3-4 player would allow a 37 win team in the atlanta hawks take them to a 7 game series? I think not!
some of your points are good..but that on the other hand is not...they still won it all no matter how many games it took.

JordansBulls
11-17-2008, 04:02 PM
lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.

the worst thing u can do is say your opponent sucks. u know why? bc if they beat u, wow u look greaaattt. so for the lakers fans saying Pierce isnt a top player, he outplayed Kobe in the finals like it or not. he covered him on defense and scored on him when kobe covered him.

Pierce led a furious 24 pt comeback in the staples center against your beloved kobe and one of the big reasons the Celtics won that game was Pierce stepping up at halftime saying he wants to cover Kobe and 24 minutes later, the lakers were dealt a loss they will never forget.

RESPECT YOUR OPPONENT. Pierce is a star player with confidence that fuels his game to the point that he competes head to head with anyone in the league.


:nod:

It's also funny that people will say Pierce isn't a top player in the league. I mean does it make sense to say a player isn't even a top player in the league but yet outplays everyone else when it matters? Wouldn't it make more sense to say the guy is a top player in the league instead of saying you got outplayed by a guy that wasn't that good?
That's how you can tell that many people here are young, because a reasoning person would know to make sure to say the other player is more elite than he actually is once he wins over someone else that is considered better.

Yogi
11-17-2008, 04:05 PM
Kobe is the best in the league, no doubt in my mind.

ink
11-17-2008, 04:07 PM
lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.

the worst thing u can do is say your opponent sucks. u know why? bc if they beat u, wow u look greaaattt. so for the lakers fans saying Pierce isnt a top player, he outplayed Kobe in the finals like it or not. he covered him on defense and scored on him when kobe covered him.

Pierce led a furious 24 pt comeback in the staples center against your beloved kobe and one of the big reasons the Celtics won that game was Pierce stepping up at halftime saying he wants to cover Kobe and 24 minutes later, the lakers were dealt a loss they will never forget.

RESPECT YOUR OPPONENT. Pierce is a star player with confidence that fuels his game to the point that he competes head to head with anyone in the league.


:nod:

It's also funny that people will say Pierce isn't a top player in the league. I mean does it make sense to say a player isn't even a top player in the league but yet outplays everyone else when it matters? Wouldn't it make more sense to say the guy is a top player in the league instead of saying you got outplayed by a guy that wasn't that good?
That's how you can tell that many people here are young, because a reasoning person would know to make sure to say the other player is more elite than he actually is once he wins over someone else that is considered better.

I'd have to agree with both of these posts.

BTownTeamsRKing said everything that needs to be said with "respect your opponent".

Lakersfan2483
11-17-2008, 04:12 PM
Source: Boston (http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2008/11/magic_kobe_is_b.html)

I have to disagree with Magic on this one. I don't think Pierce is a top ten player, he had a great performance last year, but in terms of evaluating the best players, he's not in the top ten.

Top Guys: Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, KG, Wade, CP3, Howard, Yao, Dirk, Amare, D. Will, Bosh, are all guys I would take ahead of Pierce.

Lakersfan2483
11-17-2008, 04:13 PM
:nod:

It's also funny that people will say Pierce isn't a top player in the league. I mean does it make sense to say a player isn't even a top player in the league but yet outplays everyone else when it matters? Wouldn't it make more sense to say the guy is a top player in the league instead of saying you got outplayed by a guy that wasn't that good?
That's how you can tell that many people here are young, because a reasoning person would know to make sure to say the other player is more elite than he actually is once he wins over someone else that is considered better.

Pierce is definitely a top player in the league, but not in the top ten.

JAZZNC
11-17-2008, 04:16 PM
I have to disagree with Magic on this one. I don't think Pierce is a top ten player, he had a great performance last year, but in terms of evaluating the best players, he's not in the top ten.

Top Guys: Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, KG, Wade, CP3, Howard, Yao, Dirk, Amare, D. Will, Bosh, are all guys I would take ahead of Pierce.

As of right now the only people on that list I'd without question take ahead of Pierce is Kobe and Lebron. When you talk about a guys all around game from outside shooting, post play, passing, ball handling and on the ball defense there are very, very few better. Like somebody else already said, the guy almost went to the Finals with Antoine Walker as his best option...that says a lot.

Lakersfan2483
11-17-2008, 04:18 PM
Name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on. Kobe had the most dominant player in the leauge when he got his first 3 titles as well as an assortment of the best aging vets in the league every year. What has he done without that? It took a gift from the Grizz to get that team to the top last year. It's not a one man game, you have to have a team around you. In all honesty, name me 4 people who are all around better players than Pierce....

I can name several, Kobe, Chris Paul, Lebron, Duncan, Wade, KG, Amare, need I go on? lol

In response to the early argument, what has anyone done without adequate talent, doesn't make any sense, you need talent to win and compete for a title, period..

BTownTeamsRKing
11-17-2008, 04:19 PM
finally some ppl agree with me about Pierce. i just dont understand those who just say Pierce is only good bc he has KG and Ray.

all 3 are great, but in the playoffs, Pierce was the man bc ray lost his shot and KG disaapeared in clutch time.

Kobe is a great player, Lebron is a great player. Pierce is a great player. they will each be better than each other at some point.

btw cp3 is sick, but i would not take him over the 3 above. honestly, Dwayne Wade needs to be up there with Pierce, Kobe, and Lebron.

MiamiHeat
11-17-2008, 04:20 PM
1. KOBE
2. LEBRON
3. WADE
4. CP3

I can keep naming players that i take before Pierce

def. not top 3-4

LayZbone
11-17-2008, 04:24 PM
Pierce is top 10 in my book, but I'd definitely take Kobe, Lebron, Paul and Wade ahead of him w/o question. A few others are arguable (Howard, Duncan, etc).

Lakersfan2483
11-17-2008, 04:24 PM
As of right now the only people on that list I'd without question take ahead of Pierce is Kobe and Lebron. When you talk about a guys all around game from outside shooting, post play, passing, ball handling and on the ball defense there are very, very few better. Like somebody else already said, the guy almost went to the Finals with Antoine Walker as his best option...that says a lot.

Who were the really strong teams in the East back at that time? Also, A. Walker was an all-star at that time and avg. over 20 points a game and around 8 rebs. per contest. The East was at it's lowest point at that time.

You mean to tell me, you would take Pierce over Chris Paul, D. Wade, Howard, KG, Duncan, and Amare?? Lol.

NYMetros
11-17-2008, 04:26 PM
Right now, I'd say it's:

1. Lebron
2. Pierce
3. Kobe

Pierce shut down Kobe in the Finals, so I have to give him the edge as of right now.

NYMetros
11-17-2008, 04:30 PM
Pistons?

They didnt have any superstars...

Even the Spurs. I just see Tim Duncan as a big name on that team.

The Pistons didn't have any superstars. Just 4 all-stars.

JAZZNC
11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
Who were the really strong teams in the East back at that time? Also, A. Walker was an all-star at that time and avg. over 20 points a game and around 8 rebs. per contest. The East was at it's lowest point at that time.

You mean to tell me, you would take Pierce over Chris Paul, D. Wade, Howard, KG, Duncan, and Amare?? Lol.


I said right now. Paul has only been to the playoffs once, I just simply think Pierce is a better all around player than Wade, Howard can't be the man on a championship team b/c he can't score unless it's a dunk or put back, KG is a choke artist, Duncan is well past his prime, and Amare well he might as well be a ghost on D. I also said I'd only FOR SURE take Kobe and Lebron over Pierce, the others are certainly debateable.

By the way Walker would average 20ppg on any team if he was allowed to be the second option, I mean the guy shot the ball ever time he touched it how could he not score 20 per?

alexander_37
11-17-2008, 04:36 PM
lebron > kobe because he can score better, get boards better , just as good a passer, taller, stronger, younger, better hops

kobe is a better 3 point shooter but they can both knock down a mid range J nearly every time

so in my book lebron,

dwight ( id take a dominant cneter as the center piece of my team over a SG ANY day but lebron is just to special a player to not put 1st)

, kobe, CP3, and wade/amare/KG/bosh are toss ups IMO

JordansBulls
11-17-2008, 04:38 PM
As of right now the only people on that list I'd without question take ahead of Pierce is Kobe and Lebron. When you talk about a guys all around game from outside shooting, post play, passing, ball handling and on the ball defense there are very, very few better. Like somebody else already said, the guy almost went to the Finals with Antoine Walker as his best option...that says a lot.

So what about Duncan?

SteveNash
11-17-2008, 04:39 PM
Wait how was Pierce the best player in the playoffs last year?

soulslice
11-17-2008, 04:40 PM
LeBron > Kobe. :nod:

maybe when he gets a consistent jump shot

soulslice
11-17-2008, 04:43 PM
I said right now. Paul has only been to the playoffs once, I just simply think Pierce is a better all around player than Wade, Howard can't be the man on a championship team b/c he can't score unless it's a dunk or put back, KG is a choke artist, Duncan is well past his prime, and Amare well he might as well be a ghost on D. I also said I'd only FOR SURE take Kobe and Lebron over Pierce, the others are certainly debateable.

By the way Walker would average 20ppg on any team if he was allowed to be the second option, I mean the guy shot the ball ever time he touched it how could he not score 20 per?

agreed
kobe didn't have Garnett and allen behind him, thats why paul pierce doing better now, but look when he had nobody? he was just an average star in the NBA

BTownTeamsRKing
11-17-2008, 04:45 PM
this isnt really on topic, but its amazing how fans (including me) protect their players as if they are family.

cahawk
11-17-2008, 04:46 PM
Magic has a conflict of interest & credibility when he says kobe is the best.

Magic was a laker player for life and now a laker VP, what's he going to say?
Phil Jackson as kobe's coach always said good things about kobe until........
he was no longer in the laker orginization & then the truth spilled out.

I accept Magic as a very credible source on BB talent...
but not when commenting on former or current laker's.

MiamiHeat
11-17-2008, 04:51 PM
this isnt really on topic, but its amazing how fans (including me) protect their players as if they are family.

all the Heat players expect Blount are my family :D

DreamShaker
11-17-2008, 04:54 PM
Okay, you're right, the Celtics 06-07 seaon, pierce only played half a season, but the year before that he played 79 games, in which you can say a whole season and his team only won 33 games. In 03-04 he played 80 games and his team won 36 games.

Also before celtics acquired garnett and allen, didn't he demand to be traded?

You take out Garnett and Allen out of the team and Pierce wouldn't be able to take his team into the playoffs in the Eastern Conference.

No, that was Kobe.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-17-2008, 04:56 PM
Magic is right when he speaks about Paul's skills. He is strong in every category you would want a player to be. But I just would take a few players over him to start a team

Kobe
Lebron
Duncan
CP3
KG
Wade
Howard

BTownTeamsRKing
11-17-2008, 04:57 PM
all the Heat players expect Blount are my family :D

hahaha old friend blount, is that who the lakers fans are refering to when they say Pierce had help early in his career and still sucked?

blount haha o man bad memories of this useless girraffe.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-17-2008, 04:58 PM
No, that was Kobe.

It was also Pierce. Him and Kobe had a bet 2 summers ago to see who would be traded first. Someone on here posted the article about Pierce talking about the Celtics lack of commitment to winning. Then they got KG and Allen

Lakersfan2483
11-17-2008, 04:59 PM
I said right now. Paul has only been to the playoffs once, I just simply think Pierce is a better all around player than Wade, Howard can't be the man on a championship team b/c he can't score unless it's a dunk or put back, KG is a choke artist, Duncan is well past his prime, and Amare well he might as well be a ghost on D. I also said I'd only FOR SURE take Kobe and Lebron over Pierce, the others are certainly debateable.

By the way Walker would average 20ppg on any team if he was allowed to be the second option, I mean the guy shot the ball ever time he touched it how could he not score 20 per?

I definitely disagree with you, I would take a healthy Wade over Pierce. I also would take Duncan (who is still the best big man in the league), Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett and Amare over Paul Pierce. Pierce is a great player and it's no disrespect to him, but all of those guys are better players. Pierce is a great closer, but those guys are more complete players and are all "franchise" players.

As far as KG being a choke artist, I disagree, he did not have enough talent to win in the past. He was the "main" reason Boston won the title last year.

JeffFrankGore
11-17-2008, 05:04 PM
Name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on. Kobe had the most dominant player in the leauge when he got his first 3 titles as well as an assortment of the best aging vets in the league every year. What has he done without that? It took a gift from the Grizz to get that team to the top last year. It's not a one man game, you have to have a team around you. In all honesty, name me 4 people who are all around better players than Pierce....

I'm sorry, I like to stay out of these arguments, as I am a laker fan, and I know that regardless or what you say, being biased is unavoidable....However, stop considering the gasol trade a gift. Looking at it now, as the deal matured, marc gasol, along with the other pieces given up, makes this trade a lot more fair than given credit for. It seems that people will always find a reason to bash the lakers when things go well for them.

Afridi786
11-17-2008, 05:07 PM
Paul Pierce is not top 3-4. Assuming Lebron and Kobe are 1 and 2, this would mean that Pierce is better than CP3, Dwight, Wade, Duncan, Amare, and those r the only guys i can think of off the top of my head. I'd take any of those guys b4 Pierce easily.

DreamShaker
11-17-2008, 06:12 PM
It was also Pierce. Him and Kobe had a bet 2 summers ago to see who would be traded first. Someone on here posted the article about Pierce talking about the Celtics lack of commitment to winning. Then they got KG and Allen

He didn't demand a trade he just asked for help and they got it....same with Kobe except for the whole "I'dd rather play on Pluto than for the Lakers" comment....

JAZZNC
11-17-2008, 06:22 PM
I'm sorry, I like to stay out of these arguments, as I am a laker fan, and I know that regardless or what you say, being biased is unavoidable....However, stop considering the gasol trade a gift. Looking at it now, as the deal matured, marc gasol, along with the other pieces given up, makes this trade a lot more fair than given credit for. It seems that people will always find a reason to bash the lakers when things go well for them.


It was a gift, period end of story. Marc Gasol...are you serious?

I'm not bashing, I'm stating truth. It's not that difficult to see that you gave nothing for probably the second most important player on your entire team.

JordansBulls
11-17-2008, 06:24 PM
He didn't demand a trade he just asked for help and they got it....same with Kobe except for the whole "I'dd rather play on Pluto than for the Lakers" comment....

I do remember him saying though that if the Celtics didn't get another star he was going to demand to be traded. At the time only Marion was being considered but then they got Ray Allen and the rest is history. He just didn't go public with it.

barreleffact
11-17-2008, 06:48 PM
I take magic johnsons word less and less as fact tehse days. callin pierce a top 4 PLAYER is absurd. He isnt even a top 4 Perimeter player.

perimeter players:
Kobe, Wade, Paul, Lebron

Inside players:
Duncan, Dwight, KG

thats at least 7 players better BEFORE you mention the ones who are iffy:
Joe Johnson, Amare, Bosh, Iverson...lesser arguables in Tony Parker, Brandon Roy, Boozer

All in all Pierce is definately top 15, but top 4....I think he was seriously just throwing out a number

BALLER71
11-17-2008, 06:53 PM
agree with him


Finally some respect to The Truth.

Top 3-4 sounds about right.


lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.



You guys are Boston fans. Shut up.

Well MJ drafted Raymond Felton so we all have to believe that Felton will be the greatest PG ever. Because he's Michael Jordan, he's the greatest, and because of that, every player that he says will be great, WILL BE GREAT. :eyebrow::rolleyes:

MilfHunter07
11-17-2008, 06:53 PM
Finally some respect to The Truth.

Top 3-4 sounds about right.

I dont even think hes top 5 maybe top 10 but not top 5.

Kobe
Lebron
Wade
CP3
Amare
Duncan
Melo
Yao
KG
Roy
Nash
Paul

He ranks 12th i my list.

Draco
11-17-2008, 06:53 PM
I don't even think Kobe's a lock for 2nd best player in the NBA. If I have a team like Boston and replace Allen with either Kobe or Wade I honestly wouldn't care which choice I made. 2a or 2b. Another thought. Take Kobe out of LA and replace him with Wade and you have just as good a team.

MilfHunter07
11-17-2008, 06:58 PM
You guys are Boston fans. Shut up.

Well MJ drafted Raymond Felton so we all have to believe that Felton will be the greatest PG ever. Because he's Michael Jordan, he's the greatest, and because of that, every player that he says will be great, WILL BE GREAT. :eyebrow::rolleyes:

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE DRAFTED MORRISON, AND JORDAN SAID HIM SELF THIS GUY CAN LEAD THE LEAGUE ONE DAY IN SCORING. Yet were still waiting. :rolleyes:

MilfHunter07
11-17-2008, 07:00 PM
I don't even think Kobe's a lock for 2nd best player in the NBA. If I have a team like Boston and replace Allen with either Kobe or Wade I honestly wouldn't care which choice I made. 2a or 2b. Another thought. Take Kobe out of LA and replace him with Wade and you have just as good a team.

IF anything better since wade is better at involving other players. Not saying Wade is better then Kobe.

KobeIs
11-17-2008, 07:16 PM
na I don't think Pierce is top 4. more like top 10.

JJ81
11-17-2008, 07:22 PM
Paul's not top 3.

Bleeds Blue
11-17-2008, 07:22 PM
as a laker fan id he's say number 9

kobe, lebron, duncan, cp3, wade, amare, howard, yao, pierce, KG

DreamShaker
11-17-2008, 07:33 PM
I dont even think hes top 5 maybe top 10 but not top 5.

Kobe
Lebron
Wade
CP3
Amare
Duncan
Melo
Yao
KG
Roy
Nash
Paul

He ranks 12th i my list.

I would take him over Nash and Roy....

rosesbulls
11-17-2008, 07:34 PM
No facts or anything but i doubt kobe has had a single losing season in his career even when playing with a bunch of scrubs after shaq left. Pierce did get injured but not enough for some1 2 say that he would have lead them to a winning season. Pierce may be a 3-4 player in the league i dont think so but am sure plenty do. I think that you could put an argument that he is 4 but right now Kobe, Lebron and CP3 are untouchable as 1,2,3 there are probably 10 players you could make a push for at that 4 spot. Wade, Amare, Dwight, Pierce, KG, maybe even Williams, Bosh, Duncan, who knows maybe Joe Johnson keeps it up and i would think he might be the 4 am probably forgetting a couple. So Pierce might be 4. He is definatly 4 maybe higher if you are including just this season so far and last years postseason but for me i just dont think he is there right now.

jkiddvc20
11-17-2008, 07:34 PM
No way in hell is Paul Pierce 3-4 hes not even top ten.

rosesbulls
11-17-2008, 07:37 PM
It was a gift, period end of story. Marc Gasol...are you serious?

I'm not bashing, I'm stating truth. It's not that difficult to see that you gave nothing for probably the second most important player on your entire team.

Marc Gasol is still early 20s and is averaging 12/10 with a high fg % its not a gift. Looking a year ago sure you could say it was a gift but now it looks like it might actually be better for Memphis. They get a good young talent that may make up a great core of Gay, Mayo, and M. Gasol

rosesbulls
11-17-2008, 07:50 PM
I think pierce is probably either 1,2 or 3 at playing other super,allstars in the game mostly because he doesnt seem to go on slumps like some players do. He seems very consistent throughout every game other then against other stars. he really seems to love playing against players who are considered better then him because it seems to challenge him to outplay them that game. He seems to step up and play harder (not saying he doesnt play hard normally) and play really good defense whenever he is playing a superstar. Really i think he is a 20ppg player on a consistent basis and then against stars a 25+ppg player.

carter15
11-17-2008, 07:56 PM
You guys are Boston fans. Shut up.

Well MJ drafted Raymond Felton so we all have to believe that Felton will be the greatest PG ever. Because he's Michael Jordan, he's the greatest, and because of that, every player that he says will be great, WILL BE GREAT. :eyebrow::rolleyes:


WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE DRAFTED MORRISON, AND JORDAN SAID HIM SELF THIS GUY CAN LEAD THE LEAGUE ONE DAY IN SCORING. Yet were still waiting. :rolleyes:

he said it because a boston fan said we shudnt disagree with magic johnson since hes knows talent.

it was a sarcastic comment to show that the other guys comment did not make any sense.

GspLAL
11-17-2008, 07:57 PM
I love you educated people saying pierce shut down kobe, like you know how the celtics defense worked. If kobe drove passed pierce he'd be surrounded by at least 2 defenders, because the celtics knew that lakers didnt have another all star type player that can consistently beat them if left open. So he'd be forced to make a bad shot/pass.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 07:59 PM
I have always respected Magic Johnson's opinion, he speaks with a well thought out manner. He is 100% correct here, although I think LeBron is better, I am not going to argue with his points, besides, you know he will pick the Laker if it is too close to call. He has to. He has purple and gold running thru his veins

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:01 PM
No facts or anything but i doubt kobe has had a single losing season in his career even when playing with a bunch of scrubs after shaq left. Pierce did get injured but not enough for some1 2 say that he would have lead them to a winning season. Pierce may be a 3-4 player in the league i dont think so but am sure plenty do. I think that you could put an argument that he is 4 but right now Kobe, Lebron and CP3 are untouchable as 1,2,3 there are probably 10 players you could make a push for at that 4 spot. Wade, Amare, Dwight, Pierce, KG, maybe even Williams, Bosh, Duncan, who knows maybe Joe Johnson keeps it up and i would think he might be the 4 am probably forgetting a couple. So Pierce might be 4. He is definatly 4 maybe higher if you are including just this season so far and last years postseason but for me i just dont think he is there right now.

Kobe has never seen the scrubs that fill many rosters dude. A Lakers down year is like the Yankees. It is a freak occurence, soon to be fixed with all that money, fame, and playing in LA

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:02 PM
I love you educated people saying pierce shut down kobe, like you know how the celtics defense worked. If kobe drove passed pierce he'd be surrounded by at least 2 defenders, because the celtics knew that lakers didnt have another all star type player that can consistently beat them if left open. So he'd be forced to make a bad shot/pass.

you are 100% right. The Celtics individual defense was not good, outside KG, and Rondo kind of. Their team defense was unreal. The Hawks exposed the Celtics, that if you get a bunch of athletes, you can hurt them badly. The Lakers just didn't come to play in that finals. Kobe was not responsible for that loss per say.

Lakers4ItAll
11-17-2008, 08:03 PM
I've always thought Pierce was a great player, he never got any love because he never had much help.

Wake's Fastball
11-17-2008, 08:06 PM
No facts or anything but i doubt kobe has had a single losing season in his career even when playing with a bunch of scrubs after shaq left. Pierce did get injured but not enough for some1 2 say that he would have lead them to a winning season. Pierce may be a 3-4 player in the league i dont think so but am sure plenty do. I think that you could put an argument that he is 4 but right now Kobe, Lebron and CP3 are untouchable as 1,2,3 there are probably 10 players you could make a push for at that 4 spot. Wade, Amare, Dwight, Pierce, KG, maybe even Williams, Bosh, Duncan, who knows maybe Joe Johnson keeps it up and i would think he might be the 4 am probably forgetting a couple. So Pierce might be 4. He is definatly 4 maybe higher if you are including just this season so far and last years postseason but for me i just dont think he is there right now.

The year after Shaq left, the Lakers put up 34 wins with Kobe, Odom and Caron.

bostncelts34
11-17-2008, 08:08 PM
Hes 100% correct

Kobe is the best player in the game, this is coming from a BOSTON fan.

After kobe you got Lebron.

Tehn you have to throw Pierce, cp3 and wade into that top 5 somehow. Pierce has shown he can do it all, and is one of the most clutch players in the NBA. For you people saying " what did he do before ray and KG?" Pierce has always put up great numbers and games, just never got noticed. And please, tell me another supoerstar who has done it BY HIMSELF. i can only think of Allen iverson in Philly, who got to the finals.

Kobe had shaq and so on..
duncan has parker and ginobli
wade had shaq..

and so onnn

No supoerstar wins it completely by himself, sorry

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:08 PM
The year after Shaq left, the Lakers put up 34 wins with Kobe, Odom and Caron.

9 teams lost more games than that last season. Basically, Kobe has never been surrounded by garbage, nobody wants to hear about the Lakers EVER struggling, because they don't know what struggling is. Try being a Wolves fan, or a Clippers fan, or a Hawks fan, etc, etc, etc.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:10 PM
Hes 100% correct

Kobe is the best player in the game, this is coming from a BOSTON fan.

After kobe you got Lebron.

Tehn you have to throw Pierce, cp3 and wade into that top 5 somehow. Pierce has shown he can do it all, and is one of the most clutch players in the NBA. For you people saying " what did he do before ray and KG?" Pierce has always put up great numbers and games, just never got noticed. And please, tell me another supoerstar who has done it BY HIMSELF. i can only think of Allen iverson in Philly, who got to the finals.

Kobe had shaq and so on..
duncan has parker and ginobli
wade had shaq..

and so onnn

No supoerstar wins it completely by himself, sorry

I like Pierce, and think at one time he was a top 5 offensive player, but he has never been a top 5 player in the NBA. And certainly not last year. He stepped up when he needed to in the playoffs, but c'mon. In 2002-05', he may have been the hardest guy in the league to stop 1-1, but he was never a top 5 player.

Lakers4ItAll
11-17-2008, 08:11 PM
Ya that must suck.... :p


9 teams lost more games than that last season. Basically, Kobe has never been surrounded by garbage, nobody wants to hear about the Lakers EVER struggling, because they don't know what struggling is. Try being a Wolves fan, or a Clippers fan, or a Hawks fan, etc, etc, etc.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:13 PM
Ya that must suck.... :p

I am a Yankees fan too, so I know where you guys are coming from as well. You go into every season expecting to contend, and when you don't it pisses you off. But I am not arrogant enough to claim the Yankees ever "struggled". They just underachieved

LeBrowns
11-17-2008, 08:15 PM
Funny how Paul Pierce gets all this recognition after playing a year with 2 future hall of famers

bostncelts34
11-17-2008, 08:16 PM
I like Pierce, and think at one time he was a top 5 offensive player, but he has never been a top 5 player in the NBA. And certainly not last year. He stepped up when he needed to in the playoffs, but c'mon. In 2002-05', he may have been the hardest guy in the league to stop 1-1, but he was never a top 5 player.

Well, hes definitly a top 5 offensive player, back then, and now. Like you said, he is virtually unstopable 1on1. Due to his size, and AMAZING footwork, best in the league footwork if you ask me. He isnt the quickest guy, but gets EVERYWHERE he wants. His Defense has stepped up huge the lastcouple of years, especially in the playoffs last year. Just my opinion, but RIGHT NOW, hes top 5 player.

kvrnm
11-17-2008, 08:16 PM
pierce getting some respect, nice... i know the lakers fans are hating this.... he had great years, and lead teams deep into the playoffs before kg and allen got there... so la fans can leave that one alone.... and not only did he lead teams deep into the playoffs, he lead terrible teams!!!! tony delk, walter mccarty, tony battie, and a bunch of other very average players, to below average. while kobe was playing with shaq at this time. and then they had some down years, just like kobe did after shaq left....

LeBrowns
11-17-2008, 08:17 PM
Hes 100% correct

Kobe is the best player in the game, this is coming from a BOSTON fan.

After kobe you got Lebron.

Tehn you have to throw Pierce, cp3 and wade into that top 5 somehow. Pierce has shown he can do it all, and is one of the most clutch players in the NBA. For you people saying " what did he do before ray and KG?" Pierce has always put up great numbers and games, just never got noticed. And please, tell me another supoerstar who has done it BY HIMSELF. i can only think of Allen iverson in Philly, who got to the finals.

Kobe had shaq and so on..
duncan has parker and ginobli
wade had shaq..

and so onnn

No supoerstar wins it completely by himself, sorry

A superstar who'se done it by himself. Like LeBron has every single year before this that he's played in Cleveland, singlehandedly took them to the finals and took the Celtics to the final minutes of game 7 last year. If Paul Pierce was in LeBron's shoes the cavs would be a first round knockout.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:18 PM
Funny how Paul Pierce gets all this recognition after playing a year with 2 future hall of famers

strange things tend to happen when you win a ring. Your value inflates. Look at James Posey. I won't take anything away from what he did in the finals. Robert Horry. These guys are barely average players that turn into household names, and become rich from being in the right place at the right time. I am not saying Pierce is with them, he is a HOF player, but yeah, he was a better individual player 3 years ago, but is now ranked higher in the NBA echelon

kvrnm
11-17-2008, 08:18 PM
Funny how Paul Pierce gets all this recognition after playing a year with 2 future hall of famers

yaa and its about time! he needed guys like that to get some recognition, cus obviously know one was noticing his great seasons in boston.

bostncelts34
11-17-2008, 08:18 PM
Funny how Paul Pierce gets all this recognition after playing a year with 2 future hall of famers

Funny how no player gets good recognition really when they are not winning. Look how bad everyone talked about wade last year (granted he was injured).

Look at Joe Johnson. I think hes an amazing player, but hes just starting to get recognition cause the hawks are winning.

winning brings recognition.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:19 PM
pierce getting some respect, nice... i know the lakers fans are hating this.... he had great years, and lead teams deep into the playoffs before kg and allen got there... so la fans can leave that one alone.... and not only did he lead teams deep into the playoffs, he lead terrible teams!!!! tony delk, walter mccarty, tony battie, and a bunch of other very average players, to below average. while kobe was playing with shaq at this time. and then they had some down years, just like kobe did after shaq left....

don't forget Twon Walker. "Hey coach, look at me! I am going to pull up for a 32 footer on a 3-1 break" Shimmy

bostncelts34
11-17-2008, 08:20 PM
A superstar who'se done it by himself. Like LeBron has every single year before this that he's played in Cleveland, singlehandedly took them to the finals and took the Celtics to the final minutes of game 7 last year. If Paul Pierce was in LeBron's shoes the cavs would be a first round knockout.

lol and what happened? cleveland got swept in 4 in the finals lol. And like i said

KOBE AND LEBRON ARE ABOVE PIERCE. never said pierce could do what lebron does, so why dont you read.

bostncelts34
11-17-2008, 08:23 PM
don't forget Twon Walker. "Hey coach, look at me! I am going to pull up for a 32 footer on a 3-1 break" Shimmy

haha yes, good ol'e 'toine. SHIMMY SHIMMY

LeBrowns
11-17-2008, 08:30 PM
lol and what happened? cleveland got swept in 4 in the finals lol. And like i said

KOBE AND LEBRON ARE ABOVE PIERCE. never said pierce could do what lebron does, so why dont you read.

Because I personally hate Paul Pierce for the same reasons I hate Gilbert Arenas. Not because of what hes done in the NBA, because he's a stud. But because he has not been the least bit humble in glory and now speaks up proclaiming himself "the best player in the world". Where was this chatter 2 years ago when you didnt' have two superstars on the floor with you Paul?

madiaz3
11-17-2008, 08:32 PM
Name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on. Kobe had the most dominant player in the leauge when he got his first 3 titles as well as an assortment of the best aging vets in the league every year. What has he done without that? It took a gift from the Grizz to get that team to the top last year. It's not a one man game, you have to have a team around you. In all honesty, name me 4 people who are all around better players than Pierce....

Smush Parker, Kobe, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown
Point being he still carried them to 40+ wins and the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
11-17-2008, 08:38 PM
Smush Parker, Kobe, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown
Point being he still carried them to 40+ wins and the playoffs.

when your second best player is Ricky Davis, you are looking up at that team brother

NFLNBA
11-17-2008, 08:38 PM
Smush Parker, Kobe, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown
Point being he still carried them to 40+ wins and the playoffs.

Very True, and took the #1 seed suns to 7 games with that team

Draco
11-17-2008, 09:03 PM
Very True, and took the #1 seed suns to 7 games with that team

They took the Suns to 7 games in 2005/6 when Amare was out. The Suns were the #2 seed behind San Antonio that year. The following year it only took the Suns 5 games to handle the Lakers.

Edit: Actually that bit of history speaks more about Nash's play than it does Kobe's. And the rest of the NBA agreed as he went on to win the MVP that year.

Duncan = Donkey
11-17-2008, 09:18 PM
wow!!! an all time laker great thinks that another all time laker great is the best player in the league. wow i did not expact that..........

JordansBulls
11-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Smush Parker, Kobe, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown
Point being he still carried them to 40+ wins and the playoffs.

Ok he got them to the playoffs. The year before he had Butler in that mix and he didn't make it. It speaks a lot of the impact that Phil Jackson had as well.

balla4life22
11-17-2008, 11:39 PM
How are amare,bosh, and roy better than pierce? what have they done? they havent proven anything. and tmac? he cant get out of the first round. pierce made it to conf. finals with antoine walker as his sidekick. pierce is top 10

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 12:14 AM
Name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on. Kobe had the most dominant player in the leauge when he got his first 3 titles as well as an assortment of the best aging vets in the league every year. What has he done without that? It took a gift from the Grizz to get that team to the top last year. It's not a one man game, you have to have a team around you. In all honesty, name me 4 people who are all around better players than Pierce....

Lets see, Kobe took his team with a starting PG in smush parker and a starting C in KAWMEH BROWN as steven a smith would say it to the playoffs one almost upseting the suns in a very tough conference. Other than Odom, kobe didnt have much help.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 12:19 AM
Right now, I'd say it's:

1. Lebron
2. Pierce
3. Kobe

Pierce shut down Kobe in the Finals, so I have to give him the edge as of right now.

No player alone will be able to shut down kobe bryant, it took the celtics TEAM defense to shut him down.

cahawk
11-18-2008, 12:46 AM
Quote:
"Lets see, Kobe took his team with a starting PG in smush parker and a starting C in KAWMEH BROWN as steven a smith would say it to the playoffs one almost upseting the suns in a very tough conference. Other than Odom, kobe didnt have much help".

kobe took the laker's after Shaq to:
two one & done's
and one missed the playoffs

And didn't Kwame Brown just come into LA & beat the Laker's?

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-18-2008, 12:52 AM
Quote:
"Lets see, Kobe took his team with a starting PG in smush parker and a starting C in KAWMEH BROWN as steven a smith would say it to the playoffs one almost upseting the suns in a very tough conference. Other than Odom, kobe didnt have much help".

kobe took the laker's after Shaq to:
two one & done's
and one missed the playoffs

And didn't Kwame Brown just come into LA & beat the Laker's?

You forgot to say Kobe took them to the NBA finals without Shaq. And Kwame did not come back and beat anybody. The Pistons did. So if your trying to say Kwame Brown is an all star in any way you have got to get a cat scan.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 12:54 AM
Quote:
"Lets see, Kobe took his team with a starting PG in smush parker and a starting C in KAWMEH BROWN as steven a smith would say it to the playoffs one almost upseting the suns in a very tough conference. Other than Odom, kobe didnt have much help".

kobe took the laker's after Shaq to:
two one & done's
and one missed the playoffs

And didn't Kwame Brown just come into LA & beat the Laker's?

LOL!!!!!! Why are you trying to say? Is that even an arguement? If you would READ I was replying to JAZZNC's comment where he said "name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on".....and don't bring that kwame brown coming to la and beating them crap in here.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-18-2008, 01:00 AM
Ok he got them to the playoffs. The year before he had Butler in that mix and he didn't make it. It speaks a lot of the impact that Phil Jackson had as well.

That year before you speak of is when Rudy T quit due to health reasons in the middle of the season. Frank Hamblen was the head coach for half the season. Kobe missed the last 16 games of the season and the Lakers won 2 games in that span. Lamar Odom also only played 64 games that season. Until all those things happened, the Lakers were 34 and 30 in the sixth spot in the playoffs. It was not Kobe's fault and everyone knows it. At least they should.:rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:01 AM
Name one time Kobe has been on a team with as little talent as the one that Pierce was on. Kobe had the most dominant player in the leauge when he got his first 3 titles as well as an assortment of the best aging vets in the league every year. What has he done without that? It took a gift from the Grizz to get that team to the top last year. It's not a one man game, you have to have a team around you. In all honesty, name me 4 people who are all around better players than Pierce....

Lamar Odom- currently a bench player averaging 9 and 5
Smush Parker- D League
Chris Mihm- end of Lakers bench
Brian Cook- barely playing/end of bench for Magic
Kwame Brown- bench for Detroit
Devean George- IR on Dallas
Luke Walton- end of bench for Lakers
Laron Profit- out of the league
Sasha Vujacic- in Lakers rotation...barely played in 05-06
Jim Jackson- out of league
Andrew Bynum- starter...he was a rookie then
Von Wafer- out of league
Slava Medvedenko- out of league
Devin Green- out of league
Aaron Mckie- out of league

This is arguably the worst group of talent ever surrounding a single superstar player. All these players were horrible then and are even worse now. Only a couple players are very good now, but were very young and inexperienced then.

And Bryant took them to 45 wins in the Western Conference.

BTW--The Lakers were #1 in the Western Conference before Pau got there. The day of Bynum's injury, they had the #1 record in the Western Conference.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:03 AM
That year before you speak of is when Rudy T quit due to health reasons in the middle of the season. Frank Hamblen was the head coach for half the season. Kobe missed the last 16 games of the season and the Lakers won 2 games in that span. Lamar Odom also only played 64 games that season. Until all those things happened, the Lakers were 34 and 30 in the sixth spot in the playoffs. It was not Kobe's fault and everyone knows it. At least they should.:rolleyes:

The hatred takes over the common sense.

Draco
11-18-2008, 01:05 AM
You forgot to say Kobe took them to the NBA finals without Shaq.

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be that Gasol took the Lakers to the NBA finals. If the Laker's didn't make that trade they probably wouldn't have gone as far.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-18-2008, 01:05 AM
Lamar Odom- currently a bench player averaging 9 and 5
Smush Parker- D League
Chris Mihm- end of Lakers bench
Brian Cook- barely playing/end of bench for Magic
Kwame Brown- bench for Detroit
Devean George- IR on Dallas
Luke Walton- end of bench for Lakers
Laron Profit- out of the league
Sasha Vujacic- in Lakers rotation...barely played in 05-06
Jim Jackson- out of league
Andrew Bynum- starter...he was a rookie then
Von Wafer- out of league
Slava Medvedenko- out of league
Devin Green- out of league
Aaron Mckie- out of league

This is arguably the worst group of talent ever surrounding a single superstar player. All these players were horrible then and are even worse now. Only a couple players are very good now, but were very young and inexperienced then.

And Bryant took them to 45 wins in the Western Conference.

BTW--The Lakers were #1 in the Western Conference before Pau got there. The day of Bynum's injury, they had the #1 record in the Western Conference.

With that type of talent, Kobe should have won 3 NBA titles. What has he done without Shaq???:rolleyes:

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-18-2008, 01:07 AM
That's one way of looking at it. Another would be that Gasol took the Lakers to the NBA finals. If the Laker's didn't make that trade they probably wouldn't have gone as far.

Okay, take Kobe off the Lakers, are they making the playoffs?

Gasol
Odom
Radmonivich
Vujacic
Fisher

Like I said, Kobe took them to the finals.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:08 AM
Lamar Odom- currently a bench player averaging 9 and 5
Smush Parker- D League
Chris Mihm- end of Lakers bench
Brian Cook- barely playing/end of bench for Magic
Kwame Brown- bench for Detroit
Devean George- IR on Dallas
Luke Walton- end of bench for Lakers
Laron Profit- out of the league
Sasha Vujacic- in Lakers rotation...barely played in 05-06
Jim Jackson- out of league
Andrew Bynum- starter...he was a rookie then
Von Wafer- out of league
Slava Medvedenko- out of league
Devin Green- out of league
Aaron Mckie- out of league

This is arguably the worst group of talent ever surrounding a single superstar player. All these players were horrible then and are even worse now. Only a couple players are very good now, but were very young and inexperienced then.

And Bryant took them to 45 wins in the Western Conference.

BTW--The Lakers were #1 in the Western Conference before Pau got there. The day of Bynum's injury, they had the #1 record in the Western Conference.

Phil Jackson had a lot to do with it as the Lakers were actually better the year before when they didn't make the playoffs.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:08 AM
That's one way of looking at it. Another would be that Gasol took the Lakers to the NBA finals. If the Laker's didn't make that trade they probably wouldn't have gone as far.


I wouldn't go that far, like Armin said the lakers were #1 in the Western Conference prior to Bynums injury. Bynum was emerging as so the Lakers dominating teams day in and day out, so they had a very high chance they would of gone far.

Raidaz4Life
11-18-2008, 01:10 AM
Magic is just sucking up.... Pierce isn't top 5 anything except maybe actor and drama queen. I find it funny how Boston fans stick up for him, if Kobe went to the media claiming he was all that I would hate him but all the Boston fans just go out there and support it. If he's that great his play should do the talking for him but it doesn't so he has to mouth off about it. I have absolutely no respect for Pierce at all the way I do for players like Duncan that go in there every night and do their job.

Draco
11-18-2008, 01:10 AM
Okay, take Kobe off the Lakers, are they making the playoffs?

Gasol
Odom
Radmonivich
Vujacic
Fisher

Like I said, Kobe took them to the finals.

I didn't disagree with you I just added to your post. Do you actually think that the Lakers get to the finals had they not traded for Gasol?

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:14 AM
I wouldn't go that far, like Armin said the lakers were #1 in the Western Conference prior to Bynums injury. Bynum was emerging as so the Lakers dominating teams day in and day out, so they had a very high chance they would of gone far.

The Lakers went 21-4 when they got Gasol. The difference was that Gasol could score, rebound and defend in the paint on a consistent basis. Without Gasol and with Bynum, the Lakers wouldn't have gotten that #1 seed. Remember they were only 2 games ahead of the 6th seeded Suns. It's fair to say the Lakers would have lost at least another 3-5 games with Bynum instead of Gasol. Also the Rockets were #1 without Yao as well for a few games but it didn't mean much because they wouldn't have done anything in the playoffs without him.

DCB/LAL
11-18-2008, 01:19 AM
lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.

the worst thing u can do is say your opponent sucks. u know why? bc if they beat u, wow u look greaaattt. so for the lakers fans saying Pierce isnt a top player, he outplayed Kobe in the finals like it or not. he covered him on defense and scored on him when kobe covered him.

Pierce led a furious 24 pt comeback in the staples center against your beloved kobe and one of the big reasons the Celtics won that game was Pierce stepping up at halftime saying he wants to cover Kobe and 24 minutes later, the lakers were dealt a loss they will never forget.

RESPECT YOUR OPPONENT. Pierce is a star player with confidence that fuels his game to the point that he competes head to head with anyone in the league.

If i remember correctly it was james posey covering bryant not pierce......Paul is top three in the league.....chris paul that is!! Put lebron or kobe or even Chris Paul with the celtics and they'd probably win mvp in the finals too!! Actually if you were to replace one of them three with pierce the celtics probably would of dominated in the playoffs maybe even swept the opposing team!!

Pierce couldn't get his team in the playoffs in the east and you didnt even have to be a .500 team to make the ridiculous!! Kobe got his team in the playoffs in the west by himself and lebron lead his team to the finals in the east by himself and pierce couldn't even get them in the playoffs and people wanna say he is up there with lebron and kobe?!! Come on! Are you kiddin me!!

Now for all those celtics fans saying and asking if Kobe has ever won MVP here is my question to you....Has pierce ever lead his team into the playoffs alone?? In the east where for the last few years has been like the JV in the NBA?? Has he?? and i dont mean the team when he had Antoine Walker i mean has ever got his team in the playoffs alone as kobe and lebron have done?

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:21 AM
The Lakers went 21-4 when they got Gasol. The difference was that Gasol could score, rebound and defend in the paint on a consistent basis. Without Gasol and with Bynum, the Lakers wouldn't have gotten that #1 seed. Remember they were only 2 games ahead of the 6th seeded Suns. It's fair to say the Lakers would have lost at least another 3-5 games with Bynum instead of Gasol. Also the Rockets were #1 without Yao as well for a few games but it didn't mean much because they wouldn't have done anything in the playoffs without him.

Gasol defend the paint? That was one of our weaknesses. Where you think he got the nickname Gasoft? Gasol is not a banger like Bynum is. Bynum will go into the paint and bang with the bigs, block shots and take hard fouls.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:23 AM
Gasol took the Lakers to the NBA finals.

Are you kidding me? Kobe averaged 30/6/6 while shooting 51% before the Finals. Not to mention he broke Michael Jordan's record of most consecutive 30/6/6 games in the playoffs. Kobe took the Lakers to the NBA Finals clearly. His play was beyond great, it was phenomenal.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:23 AM
Gasol defend the paint? That was one of our weaknesses. Where you think he got the nickname Gasoft? Gasol is not a banger like Bynum is. Bynum will go into the paint and bang with the bigs, block shots and take hard fouls.

Go check the fg% of the other big men on the other teams he defended. Camby, Boozer, Duncan and KG and you will see they all shot significantly lower in that series with Gasol defending them.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:25 AM
Are you kidding me? Kobe averaged 30/6/6 while shooting 51% before the Finals. Not to mention he broke Michael Jordan's record of most consecutive 30/6/6 games in the playoffs. Kobe took the Lakers to the NBA Finals clearly. His play was beyond great, it was phenomenal.

Broke it, I do remember them saying something that he had a few games in a row of 30/6/6 which is great, but MJ's career playoffs average was 33/6/6.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:26 AM
Go check the fg% of the other big men on the other teams he defended. Camby, Boozer, Duncan and KG and you will see they all shot significantly lower in that series with Gasol defending them.

I believe we were talking about regular season record. The Lakers, one the day of Bynum's injury, were #1 in the Western Conference. Not only that, but Bynum was holding his opponents to 40% shooting.

Gasol was the primary defender, but Kobe was defending them as well. That is why Kobe would guard Brewer, Bowen, and Rondo. Kobe would sag off his man and help Gasol in the post.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:28 AM
Broke it, I do remember them saying something that he had a few games in a row of 30/6/6 which is great, but MJ's career playoffs average was 33/6/6.

Kobe did break it. MJ had 4 consecutive games, which spanned from the 93 playoffs onto the 95 playoffs. Kobe had 5 or 6 consecutive games of 30/6/6. He DID break it. MJ did average those numbers, but I guess he took a couple nights off in between where he "only" got 28/5/5.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:29 AM
I believe we were talking about regular season record. The Lakers, one the day of Bynum's injury, were #1 in the Western Conference. Not only that, but Bynum was holding his opponents to 40% shooting.

Gasol was the primary defender, but Kobe was defending them as well. That is why Kobe would guard Brewer, Bowen, and Rondo. Kobe would sag off his man and help Gasol in the post.

Ok, the Rockets were #1 when Yao was out. IT didn't matter because they weren't going anywhere without him.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:31 AM
Kobe did break it. MJ had 4 consecutive games, which spanned from the 93 playoffs onto the 95 playoffs. Kobe had 5 or 6 consecutive games of 30/6/6. He DID break it. MJ did average those numbers, but I guess he took a couple nights off in between where he "only" got 28/5/5.

That's fine, it just interesting that MJ averaged 33/6/6 for his playoff career. Also I'm not even sure MJ had the record for that. Those are one of those stats where they just make it the minimum for a player. Like if you were to say only a few players averaged 30 7 and 5 or something.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:35 AM
That's fine, it just interesting that MJ averaged 33/6/6 for his playoff career. Also I'm not even sure MJ had the record for that. Those are one of those stats where they just make it the minimum for a player. Like if you were to say only a few players averaged 30 7 and 5 or something.

MJ and Hakeem were both tied with consecutive 30/6/6 games. It wasn't a minimum thing because they both owned this record for a while. Kobe broke it. Deal with it, JB! lol. :D

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:36 AM
Ok, the Rockets were #1 when Yao was out. IT didn't matter because they weren't going anywhere without him.

Rockets had high expectations last year, unfortunately yao got injured, but they go on to a 22 win streak.

As for the lakers expectations, it was another first round exit, maybe even worse due to the trade demands int he offseason by bryant, but with the emergence of bynum's play he along with the rest of the team lifted them to be favorites and #1 in the West. Oh yeah forgot to mention Bynum was leading the league in FG % with 64%

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:38 AM
MJ and Hakeem were both tied with consecutive 30/6/6 games. It wasn't a minimum thing because they both owned this record for a while. Kobe broke it. Deal with it, JB! lol. :D

You know what I am referring to though. When a player does something they use the minimum requirements for it. I'm fine with whatever the case was I just know that MJ averaged 33/6/6/2/1 for his career in the playoffs.:D


But back to topic, I am disappointed that no one ever mentions Duncan as part of the top players anymore.

stawka
11-18-2008, 01:38 AM
Kobe IS better then Pierce. There is no doubt in anybody's mind but Pierce himself - and I don't even know if he believes his own bull****.

Now LeBron and Kobe, different story. I don't even put Pierce in the top 10 players in the league.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:39 AM
Rockets had high expectations last year, unfortunately yao got injured, but they go on to a 22 win streak.

As for the lakers expectations, it was another first round exit, maybe even worse due to the trade demands int he offseason by bryant, but with the emergence of bynum's play he along with the rest of the team lifted them to be favorites and #1 in the West. Oh yeah forgot to mention Bynum was leading the league in FG % with 64%

He was still an unproven player. He did good for certain games, but you don't know if he would maintain that.

Draco
11-18-2008, 01:42 AM
Are you kidding me? Kobe averaged 30/6/6 while shooting 51% before the Finals. Not to mention he broke Michael Jordan's record of most consecutive 30/6/6 games in the playoffs. Kobe took the Lakers to the NBA Finals clearly. His play was beyond great, it was phenomenal.

Nice trivia, I guess. The only Laker games in the playoffs that I watched were in the finals and as another poster once put it: "Kobe folded faster than superman on laundry day."

Besides, you're missing my point. Without the trade, the Lakers probably don't get to the finals. So in a sense, Gasol did take them there.

JWalk126
11-18-2008, 01:43 AM
I wonder if "top 3-4" is a crack at his jersey number

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-18-2008, 01:44 AM
Go check the fg% of the other big men on the other teams he defended. Camby, Boozer, Duncan and KG and you will see they all shot significantly lower in that series with Gasol defending them.

That is the difference between Bynum and Gasol is, Bynum plays great post defense as well as help defense. Gasol is long so he bothered the jump shots of all the players you listed. But he would never come over to help on penetrators. With Bynum in the lineup, the Lakers had the 5th best defense in the league. Without him they dropped to 11th. You seen what the Celtics did to the Lakers defense. They got to the rim with no thought of a shot blocker. Bynum is a far better defender than Gasol. And everyone knows, defense wins championships. They might not have won as many games in the regular season without such a great offense, but they would have been a lot tougher come playoff time. I say they were a lot like the Suns. Great offense for the regular season, but does not translate to the playoffs.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:45 AM
Nice trivia, I guess. The only Laker games in the playoffs that I watched were in the finals and as another poster once put it: "Kobe folded faster than superman on laundry day."

Besides, you're missing my point. Without the trade, the Lakers probably don't get to the finals. So in a sense, Gasol did take them there.

So if Gasol took the LAKERS to the playoffs and to the finals why wasn't he MVP? Last time I checked it was Kobe who won, not Gasol.

If you are going to make that argument then you can say ray allen and garnett took the celtics to the championship.

Draco
11-18-2008, 01:47 AM
So if Gasol took the LAKERS to the playoffs and to the finals why wasn't he MVP? Last time I checked it was Kobe who won, not Gasol.

If you are going to make that argument then you can say ray allen and garnett took the celtics to the championship.

They did!

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:49 AM
That is the difference between Bynum and Gasol is, Bynum plays great post defense as well as help defense. Gasol is long so he bothered the jump shots of all the players you listed. But he would never come over to help on penetrators. With Bynum in the lineup, the Lakers had the 5th best defense in the league. Without him they dropped to 11th. You seen what the Celtics did to the Lakers defense. They got to the rim with no thought of a shot blocker. Bynum is a far better defender than Gasol. And everyone knows, defense wins championships. They might not have won as many games in the regular season without such a great offense, but they would have been a lot tougher come playoff time. I say they were a lot like the Suns. Great offense for the regular season, but does not translate to the playoffs.

Fair point, but with Bynum instead of Gasol they wouldn't have had enough offense to beat Utah or San Antonio I don't think. Well actually with Bynum instead of Gasol they would have been maybe between a 3-6 seed.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:49 AM
They did!


Okay, then if that is the case, this thread shouldn't even exist and no one should consider pierce of top 3-4 player, if you say it was garnett and allen who led the celtics to the championship.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:50 AM
Okay, then if that is the case, this thread shouldn't even exist and no one should consider pierce of top 3-4 player, if you say it was garnett and allen who led the celtics to the championship.

But Pierce won finals mvp and stepped up.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 01:51 AM
Nice trivia, I guess. The only Laker games in the playoffs that I watched were in the finals and as another poster once put it: "Kobe folded faster than superman on laundry day."

Besides, you're missing my point. Without the trade, the Lakers probably don't get to the finals. So in a sense, Gasol did take them there.

Gasol did not take them there, but he was an integral part of them getting there of course. Kobe TOOK them there. The guy just dominated in the WC playoffs.

I wouldn't say Kobe folded. He shots 42% which isn't good, but Lebron shot 35% against the Celtics. I think the Celtics defense was just too good. It wasn't necessarily a choke job because the Celtics were just killing everybody.

Draco
11-18-2008, 01:51 AM
Okay, then if that is the case, this thread shouldn't even exist and no one should consider pierce of top 3-4 player, if you say it was garnett and allen who led the celtics to the championship.

I hadn't gone there. Personally, I don't have an opinion on Pierce and his ranking among NBA players.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:52 AM
Fair point, but with Bynum instead of Gasol they wouldn't have had enough offense to beat Utah or San Antonio I don't think. Well actually with Bynum instead of Gasol they would have been maybe between a 3-6 seed.

Bynum was averaging 17pts a game in the month in January and he was only going to improve. They maybe would of not beaten spurs or jazz with the offense "if you say" but they would of beaten them with their defense.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:53 AM
But Pierce won finals mvp and stepped up.

So just because a player steps up in only 6 games he should automatically be considered top 3-4 player?

Joshtd1
11-18-2008, 01:54 AM
Bynum was averaging 17pts a game in the month in January and he was only going to improve. They maybe would of not beaten spurs or jazz with the offense "if you say" but they would of beaten them with their defense.

Bynum wouldnt have made the Lakers perimeter defense any better. Against the Spurs, they got any shot they liked out there, it was just their inability to knock it down.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:55 AM
The one thing that bothers me about Pierce is what happened in 2005. I mean he had a game 7 at home, and while you have great players who lose series with Homecourt Advantage and some even game 7's at home, you should never get blown out of the gym in a game 7 at HOME.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=250507002

I mean 27 point loss at home in game 7.

NFLNBA
11-18-2008, 01:55 AM
Screw all the arguing who is better, we as fans dont know crap, we dont play against these guys so if anyone knows who's the best its the players!!! Everytime a allstar player ect. like Lebron James is asked who's the best they all seem to say Kobe Bryant. That takes care of all the BS i'll take there word over a bunch of stuborn fans. I know for sure Paul Pierce name never comes up lol

Draco
11-18-2008, 01:55 AM
Gasol did not take them there, but he was an integral part of them getting there of course. Kobe TOOK them there. The guy just dominated in the WC playoffs.

I wouldn't say Kobe folded. He shots 42% which isn't good, but Lebron shot 35% against the Celtics. I think the Celtics defense was just too good. It wasn't necessarily a choke job because the Celtics were just killing everybody.

Lebron took the Celts to 7 games with a lesser team than the Lakers. 42% vs. 35%, meh.. whatever. The game isn't just about scoring.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 01:56 AM
So just because a player steps up in only 6 games he should automatically be considered top 3-4 player?

According to Magic, Pierce was the best player in the whole playoffs so that is a lot more than 6 games. It was 26 games for Pierce.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:57 AM
Screw all the arguing who is better, we as fans dont know crap, we dont play against these guys so if anyone knows who's the best its the players!!! Everytime a allstar player ect. like Lebron James is asked who's the best they all seem to say Kobe Bryant. That takes care of all the BS i'll take there word over a bunch of stuborn fans.

If you are going to take the word of the players then I guess you can agree with Pierce being the best player in the world.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 02:01 AM
Lebron took the Celts to 7 games with a lesser team than the Lakers. 42% vs. 35%, meh.. whatever. The game isn't just about scoring.

Kobe is a better defender as well though...The Cavs carried Lebron to a Game 7. Not to mention the Celtics were really out of sync early in the playoffs until they found their groove (especially Ray Allen).

BTW--Lebron against Spurs, a great defense, he shoots 35%. Against the Celtics, he shoots 35%. Kobe against the Spurs, he shoots 53%. Against the Celtics, he shoots 42%. Just food for thought.

NFLNBA
11-18-2008, 02:01 AM
If you are going to take the word of the players then I guess you can agree with Pierce being the best player in the world.

I've seen many interviews with Lebron, Wade, Duncan, ect and they are asked who's the best player in the NBA they all say Kobe Bryant....so ill take there word over Laker-Celtics-Hornets ect fans

No player has said Pierce is the best player, well he himself thinks so LOL

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 02:02 AM
Screw all the arguing who is better, we as fans dont know crap, we dont play against these guys so if anyone knows who's the best its the players!!! Everytime a allstar player ect. like Lebron James is asked who's the best they all seem to say Kobe Bryant. That takes care of all the BS i'll take there word over a bunch of stuborn fans. I know for sure Paul Pierce name never comes up lol

Then don't post here then because we want peoples opinion who bring stuff to the table not someone who just basis his opinions on what others think.

Draco
11-18-2008, 02:10 AM
Kobe is a better defender as well though...The Cavs carried Lebron to a Game 7. Not to mention the Celtics were really out of sync early in the playoffs until they found their groove (especially Ray Allen).

BTW--Lebron against Spurs, a great defense, he shoots 35%. Against the Celtics, he shoots 35%. Kobe against the Spurs, he shoots 53%. Against the Celtics, he shoots 42%. Just food for thought.


In Cleveland, James again put up lackluster scoring numbers, shooting just 5-of-16 from the field.

But he added eight assists, five rebounds, four steals and three blocks.

I wish I could dig up the stats for all the games but here's an account of Game 3. When Lebron's scoring isn't on.. he actually does other things to help out his team. That's what superstars do. That's what Kobe didn't do.

Draco
11-18-2008, 02:17 AM
I'd be surprised if Lebron said he was the best player in the NBA. Why draw attention to yourself?

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 02:25 AM
I wish I could dig up the stats for all the games but here's an account of Game 3. When Lebron's scoring isn't on.. he actually does other things to help out his team. That's what superstars do. That's what Kobe didn't do.

Are you saying Kobe isn't a superstar? Kobe does other things to help his team as well...Like not hold the ball the entire shot clock. Kobe goes through the offense and gets others involved. The triangle doesn't produce assists.

BTW-- Game 1- Kobe had 6 assists. Game 2- Kobe had 8 assists and 3 steals. Game 3- Kobe had 7 rebounds and 2 steals. Game 4- Kobe had 10 assists and 4 steals. Game 5- Kobe had 7 rebounds and 5 steals.

It looks like Kobe does things other than scoring. :D

Lakersfan2483
11-18-2008, 02:32 AM
I wish I could dig up the stats for all the games but here's an account of Game 3. When Lebron's scoring isn't on.. he actually does other things to help out his team. That's what superstars do. That's what Kobe didn't do.

You have to be kidding me with this post. You obviously have not watched much laker games to make an "uneducated" post like this.

Draco
11-18-2008, 03:00 AM
Are you saying Kobe isn't a superstar? Kobe does other things to help his team as well...Like not hold the ball the entire shot clock. Kobe goes through the offense and gets others involved. The triangle doesn't produce assists.

BTW-- Game 1- Kobe had 6 assists. Game 2- Kobe had 8 assists and 3 steals. Game 3- Kobe had 7 rebounds and 2 steals. Game 4- Kobe had 10 assists and 4 steals. Game 5- Kobe had 7 rebounds and 5 steals.

It looks like Kobe does things other than scoring. :D



Kobe vs Celtics
Game 1 42 min / 9-26 FG / 3 reb / 6 ast / 1 stl / 1 blk / 4 TO / 24 pts
Game 2 40 min / 11-23 FG / 4 reb / 8 ast / 3 stl / 0 blk / 4 TO / 30 pts
Game 3 45 min / 12-20 FG / 7 reb / 1 ast / 2 stl / 0 blk / 3 TO / 36 pts
Game 4 43 min / 6-19 FG / 4 reb / 10 ast / 4 stl / 0 blk / 2 TO / 17 pts
Game 5 44 min / 8-21 FG / 7 reb / 4 ast / 5 stl / 0 blk / 6 TO / 25 pts
Game 6 43 min / 7-22 FG / 3 reb / 2 ast / 1 stl / 0 blk / 4 TO / 22 pts

28 reb / 31 ast / 16 stl / 1 blk / 23 TO / 154 pts Total
4.6 reb / 5.1 ast / 2.6 stl / .16 blk / 3.8 TO / 25.6 pts Average

Lebron vs Celtics
L Game 1 39 min / 2-18 FG / 9 reb / 9 ast / 1 stl / 1 blk / 10 TO / 12 pts
L Game 2 42 min / 6-24 FG / 5 reb / 6 ast / 2 stl / 1 blk / 7 TO / 21 pts
W Game 3 40 min / 5-16 FG / 5 reb / 8 ast / 4 stl / 3 blk / 2 TO / 21 pts
W Game 4 44 min / 7-20 FG / 6 reb / 13 ast / 3 stl / 2 blk / 4 TO / 21 pts
L Game 5 45 min / 12-25 FG / 3 reb / 5 ast / 2 stl / 1 blk / 4 TO / 35 pts
W Game 6 47 min / 9-23 FG / 12 reb / 6 ast / 2 stl / 1 blk / 8 TO / 32 pts
L Game 7 47 min / 14-29 FG / 5 reb / 6 ast / 2 stl / 0 blk / 2 TO / 45 pts

45 reb / 53 ast / 16 stl / 9 blk / 37 TO / 187 pts Total
6.4 reb / 7.57 ast / 2.3 stl / 1.3 blk / 5.3 TO / 26.7 pts Average


There's the raw data... you can draw what conclusion you wish. From my perspective. Lebron did a much better job than Kobe considering his experience relative to Kobe's experience and the team he had to work with relative to Kobe's team.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 03:04 AM
Kobe vs Celtics
Game 1 42 min / 9-26 FG / 3 reb / 6 ast / 1 stl / 1 blk / 4 TO / 24 pts
Game 2 40 min / 11-23 FG / 4 reb / 8 ast / 3 stl / 0 blk / 4 TO / 30 pts
Game 3 45 min / 12-20 FG / 7 reb / 1 ast / 2 stl / 0 blk / 3 TO / 36 pts
Game 4 43 min / 6-19 FG / 4 reb / 10 ast / 4 stl / 0 blk / 2 TO / 17 pts
Game 5 44 min / 8-21 FG / 7 reb / 4 ast / 5 stl / 0 blk / 6 TO / 25 pts
Game 6 43 min / 7-22 FG / 3 reb / 2 ast / 1 stl / 0 blk / 4 TO / 22 pts

28 reb / 31 ast / 16 stl / 1 blk / 23 TO / 154 pts Total
4.6 reb / 5.1 ast / 2.6 stl / .16 blk / 3.8 TO / 25.6 pts Average

Lebron vs Celtics
L Game 1 39 min / 2-18 FG / 9 reb / 9 ast / 1 stl / 1 blk / 10 TO / 12 pts
L Game 2 42 min / 6-24 FG / 5 reb / 6 ast / 2 stl / 1 blk / 7 TO / 21 pts
W Game 3 40 min / 5-16 FG / 5 reb / 8 ast / 4 stl / 3 blk / 2 TO / 21 pts
W Game 4 44 min / 7-20 FG / 6 reb / 13 ast / 3 stl / 2 blk / 4 TO / 21 pts
L Game 5 45 min / 12-25 FG / 3 reb / 5 ast / 2 stl / 1 blk / 4 TO / 35 pts
W Game 6 47 min / 9-23 FG / 12 reb / 6 ast / 2 stl / 1 blk / 8 TO / 32 pts
L Game 7 47 min / 14-29 FG / 5 reb / 6 ast / 2 stl / 0 blk / 2 TO / 45 pts

45 reb / 53 ast / 16 stl / 9 blk / 37 TO / 187 pts Total
6.4 reb / 7.57 ast / 2.3 stl / 1.3 blk / 5.3 TO / 26.7 pts Average


There's the raw data... you can draw what conclusion you wish. From my perspective. Lebron did a much better job than Kobe.

Much? There is no way you can say that. Lebron shot 7% worse from the field. He averaged nearly 2 more turnovers. He averaged less steals.

Kobe did average less rebounds and assists, but you have to consider Kobe is a guard so rebounds come at a lesser rate to him and assists are hard to come by in the triangle offense. For what it's worth, Kobe has a better passer rating than Lebron James.

Draco
11-18-2008, 03:07 AM
Much? There is no way you can say that. Lebron shot 7% worse from the field. He averaged nearly 2 more turnovers. He averaged less steals.

Kobe did average less rebounds and assists, but you have to consider Kobe is a guard so rebounds come at a lesser rate to him and assists are hard to come by in the triangle offense. For what it's worth, Kobe has a better passer rating than Lebron James.

Again, Lebron has less time in the league and a lesser team to work with. When all was on the line in Game 6 for Kobe and Game 7 for Lebron. Both lost the game but Lebron excelled and Kobe flopped. That's pretty much the end of the story for both players in that season.

ARMIN12NBA
11-18-2008, 03:16 AM
Again, Lebron has less time in the league and a lesser team to work with. When all was on the line in Game 6 for Kobe and Game 7 for Lebron. Both lost the game but Lebron excelled and Kobe flopped. That's pretty much the end of the story for both players in that season.

I am pretty sure the entire team played awful in that Game 6. Kobe actually came out firing in that game with 11 points in 6 minutes and should have gotten an obvious three-point foul where he got hacked while shooting a three. The entire team just got overwhelmed and dominated after the first.

DoubleDragon
11-18-2008, 03:34 AM
Blah blah, blah. This is going nowhere. Everyone's got an opinion. History will do the talking in the long run. Championships, Gold medals, clutch performances, Allstar game performances, First team NBA Defense, etc, etc. Just a lot of hard blowin, BS and speculation in this thread.

PaTooey on this

Bullsfan22
11-18-2008, 07:44 AM
Hes 100% correct

Kobe is the best player in the game, this is coming from a BOSTON fan.

After kobe you got Lebron.

Tehn you have to throw Pierce, cp3 and wade into that top 5 somehow. Pierce has shown he can do it all, and is one of the most clutch players in the NBA. For you people saying " what did he do before ray and KG?" Pierce has always put up great numbers and games, just never got noticed. And please, tell me another supoerstar who has done it BY HIMSELF. i can only think of Allen iverson in Philly, who got to the finals.

Kobe had shaq and so on..
duncan has parker and ginobli
wade had shaq..

and so onnn

No supoerstar wins it completely by himself, sorry

lebron got to the finals by himself. put lebron on that lakers team and they win it all. i agree that kobe is the best player in the league right NOW but it's only a matter of time untill lebron takes it.
heres the truth on kobe he's consistently a slightly above average defensive player. he only plays real good D on players that he thinks he can make a statement against if he does. kobe is slightly a better scorer because he can shoot the three, but if you think about lebron scored 30 a game last year and people knock him for having a inconsistent jump shot imagine when he gets one? lebron is a better passer and rebounder. when it comes to being a leader kobe just learned about two years ago that he need to make his teammates better. lebron on the other has always had that quality. right now kobe is a better on the ball defender, shooter and slightly better clutch player. (lebron can take over a game in the last 3 minutes just as good as kobe) lebron is the better leader, passer, rebounder, and arguably more dominate scorer.

JordansBulls
11-18-2008, 10:58 AM
I am pretty sure the entire team played awful in that Game 6. Kobe actually came out firing in that game with 11 points in 6 minutes and should have gotten an obvious three-point foul where he got hacked while shooting a three. The entire team just got overwhelmed and dominated after the first.

He started off well in that game, but like I always say it is tougher to get your team involved when you are taking too many 3 point shots. After he started hot, he started missing and committing careless turnovers. He shot 9 3 pointers in that game when he started 3-3 and then he committed 4 turnovers and had 1 assist. Kobe took more 3's than Gasol or Odom took total shots. I know Kobe is trying to carry the team, but in a crucial game if he is going to do that then he shouldn't be living by the 3. Kobe IMO has always been a better player when playing at home than on the road and shoots much better when at home than on the road.

Gibby23
11-18-2008, 12:07 PM
lol @ fans arguing with Magic. as if u guys know more than the guy about judging talent.

the worst thing u can do is say your opponent sucks. u know why? bc if they beat u, wow u look greaaattt. so for the lakers fans saying Pierce isnt a top player, he outplayed Kobe in the finals like it or not. he covered him on defense and scored on him when kobe covered him.

Pierce led a furious 24 pt comeback in the staples center against your beloved kobe and one of the big reasons the Celtics won that game was Pierce stepping up at halftime saying he wants to cover Kobe and 24 minutes later, the lakers were dealt a loss they will never forget.

RESPECT YOUR OPPONENT. Pierce is a star player with confidence that fuels his game to the point that he competes head to head with anyone in the league.
Magic is not a good judge of talent, just like Jordan. They were great players but thats about it.

G-Funk
11-18-2008, 12:39 PM
Just another NBA player saying that Kobe is the best, How many more Former/Current player need to say that Kobe is the best? Even, our new President knows that Kobe is the Best??? Paul Pierce is not top 10 IMO.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 01:31 PM
lebron got to the finals by himself. put lebron on that lakers team and they win it all. i agree that kobe is the best player in the league right NOW but it's only a matter of time untill lebron takes it.
heres the truth on kobe he's consistently a slightly above average defensive player. he only plays real good D on players that he thinks he can make a statement against if he does. kobe is slightly a better scorer because he can shoot the three, but if you think about lebron scored 30 a game last year and people knock him for having a inconsistent jump shot imagine when he gets one? lebron is a better passer and rebounder. when it comes to being a leader kobe just learned about two years ago that he need to make his teammates better. lebron on the other has always had that quality. right now kobe is a better on the ball defender, shooter and slightly better clutch player. (lebron can take over a game in the last 3 minutes just as good as kobe) lebron is the better leader, passer, rebounder, and arguably more dominate scorer.

Please, don't bring that crap of lebron getting his team to the finals by him self. He had to face the Wizards in the first round in which two of their stars were injured, then he faced a new jersey nets team IN THE SECOND ROUND who ended up with a 41-41 record. Then he faced a pistons team who was some what of a competition but were on the decline. The only real team he faced was a western conference team which was the spurs and what happened in the series? HE GOT SWEPT!

Nighthawk
11-18-2008, 07:21 PM
A couple of years ago when Boston had the worst record in the league and lost like 20 straight games, I don't think Magic would of thought Pierce was top 3-4 then, but all of a sudden when the C's you acquire 2 future hall of famers to your team, you all of a sudden are top 3-4? Pierce is one hell of a player, but IMO he has not proven anything

People like you just dont get it....Kobe Bryant wanted to leave your god damn team when you had the same lineup now minus Pau.....You give Bryant, Walter McCarty, Antoine Walker, Tony Battie, Kenny Anderson, Eric Williams, Kobe would of ran away. Pierce got those bums to the ECF. Losing to a MUCH better Nets sqaud. But PIERCE GOT THEM THERE when no-one thought that team would make the playoffs before the season began.

As for losing the losing streak. Again KOBE has been great his whole career but has ALWAYS been around All stars and quality role players. Pierce had rookies galore to work with. Delonte, Gomes, Jefferson(WHO is MUCH better now), G. Green, Perkins, Rondo. But i'll just end the excuses. Im not going to try and make you a Pierce fan. But come on now. Magic is a LEGEND! To me his words about the game usually mean something. Kobe is the better player. But to doubt pierce as Top 5 is silly.

still1ballin
11-18-2008, 10:35 PM
People like you just dont get it....Kobe Bryant wanted to leave your god damn team when you had the same lineup now minus Pau.....You give Bryant, Walter McCarty, Antoine Walker, Tony Battie, Kenny Anderson, Eric Williams, Kobe would of ran away. Pierce got those bums to the ECF. Losing to a MUCH better Nets sqaud. But PIERCE GOT THEM THERE when no-one thought that team would make the playoffs before the season began.

As for losing the losing streak. Again KOBE has been great his whole career but has ALWAYS been around All stars and quality role players. Pierce had rookies galore to work with. Delonte, Gomes, Jefferson(WHO is MUCH better now), G. Green, Perkins, Rondo. But i'll just end the excuses. Im not going to try and make you a Pierce fan. But come on now. Magic is a LEGEND! To me his words about the game usually mean something. Kobe is the better player. But to doubt pierce as Top 5 is silly.

Give me your top 5.

Nighthawk
11-19-2008, 10:37 AM
Kobe
Lebron
C. Paul
Pierce
Wade


All those 5 players and get any shot they want on the floor at any given time. They can flat out shoot or take it hard to the whole. There all elite playmakers. Those 5 players make everyone around them better.And it isnt just offense. They can all play defense. You havent factor in Def when being consider great. And pierce contained both Lebron and Kobe in the same playoffs. Can he get credit it for that?? Thats my top 5 as of right now. Its pointless really because you'll disagree then give me you 5 and ill prollie disagree..

still1ballin
11-19-2008, 11:01 AM
Kobe
Lebron
C. Paul
Pierce
Wade


All those 5 players and get any shot they want on the floor at any given time. They can flat out shoot or take it hard to the whole. There all elite playmakers. Those 5 players make everyone around them better.And it isnt just offense. They can all play defense. You havent factor in Def when being consider great. And pierce contained both Lebron and Kobe in the same playoffs. Can he get credit it for that?? Thats my top 5 as of right now. Its pointless really because you'll disagree then give me you 5 and ill prollie disagree..

Nice top 5, but as of right now you would take pierce of dwight howard? how about deron williams? Would you take pierce over dwill right now? kg? bosh? I can keep naming players if you like.

And that is the most dumbest statements ever!! I mean don't you watch basketball? Because obviously you don't. Pierce would not be able to guard lebron or kobe one on one. No one can. It was TEAM DEFENSE that shut them down. If you say pierce shut them down last year in the playoffs why hasn't he had any credit from seasons past of shutting other players?

JordansBulls
11-19-2008, 11:05 AM
Kobe
Lebron
C. Paul
Pierce
Wade


All those 5 players and get any shot they want on the floor at any given time. They can flat out shoot or take it hard to the whole. There all elite playmakers. Those 5 players make everyone around them better.And it isnt just offense. They can all play defense. You havent factor in Def when being consider great. And pierce contained both Lebron and Kobe in the same playoffs. Can he get credit it for that?? Thats my top 5 as of right now. Its pointless really because you'll disagree then give me you 5 and ill prollie disagree..

What are we basing this top 5 guys on? This year? Last year? What the guys have done?

still1ballin
11-19-2008, 01:17 PM
What are we basing this top 5 guys on? This year? Last year? What the guys have done?

Top 5 players as of right now.

JordansBulls
11-19-2008, 02:55 PM
What I don't get is why is Magic using the whole "he has done it for a lot longer argument" if we are talking now? If that were the case then Tim Duncan should be the best in the league as he has been doing it since he came in and still is putting up great numbers.

balla4life22
11-19-2008, 03:29 PM
Nice top 5, but as of right now you would take pierce of dwight howard? how about deron williams? Would you take pierce over dwill right now? kg? bosh? I can keep naming players if you like.

And that is the most dumbest statements ever!! I mean don't you watch basketball? Because obviously you don't. Pierce would not be able to guard lebron or kobe one on one. No one can. It was TEAM DEFENSE that shut them down. If you say pierce shut them down last year in the playoffs why hasn't he had any credit from seasons past of shutting other players?

what has bosh done? and dwill cant take over games the way pierce does

Nighthawk
11-19-2008, 04:48 PM
what has bosh done? and dwill cant take over games the way pierce does

thank you

BTownTeamsRKing
11-19-2008, 04:56 PM
right now: Pierce, Kobe, Lebron, Wade in no order....cant think of 5th.