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View Full Version : What would David West be without CP3?



Chronz
11-09-2008, 10:46 PM
They share a bond on the court similar to Stockton and Malone only with more pick and pop. West is one of the games best mid-range shooters and CP3's penetration opens the game up for him. The threat of the jumper allows CP3 to probe the paint under less duress and its a big reason why his inside efficiency has been in a constant rise as West has stayed healthy enough to play with him;

So what would David West be without CP3, garbage? Not even All-Star, the same, better? How substantial is their bond?

cmellofan15
11-09-2008, 10:57 PM
I think he would be pretty bad. Put Joakim Noah on the team and even he would be good. West is CP3's offspring. He wouldn't be good if he played for somebody like Cleveland where the star player overshadows the little guys, whereas now he's in the opposite situation.

Chronz
11-09-2008, 10:59 PM
So hed go from an allstar to a below average player is what your saying? And what does Joakim Noah do as good as West to make him an all-star with CP3?

Hawkeye15
11-09-2008, 11:04 PM
He would still be a good player. All star? Maybe not. But he is talented, and would still be a 19-7 player without the gimmes he gets

SAVAGE CLAW
11-09-2008, 11:06 PM
An Ok Starter on the range of 12-8 or something.

cmellofan15
11-09-2008, 11:13 PM
So hed go from an allstar to a below average player is what your saying? And what does Joakim Noah do as good as West to make him an all-star with CP3?

He didn't even have a starting job before CP3 got there so Noah is already a step ahead. I'm pretty sure if you throw any mediocre starting PF in his place, they'll be able to fill his shoes. CP3 reminds me of Nash b/c of his ability to make role players STARS. For instance take Raja Bell. The only thing he had before Nash was his shot. He wasn't known for being a defender or even a good guard. Sure he got double digits in Utah, but who else was gonna score? Then when he got in Pheonix his FG%, steals and scoring went up even though he was a 4th option. Then we can also take Leandro Barbosa into account. He wasn't much of a guy before Nash, BUT when Nash had incorporated him into the gameplan he not only improved statistically but he won 6th man of the year. On CP3's behalf, he took Tyson Chandler, a guy who's never averaged a double double, into his best season of his career.

DieHardColtsfan
11-09-2008, 11:15 PM
he would be David West

CB30
11-09-2008, 11:23 PM
He would be the same player. The better question is what would Tyson Chandler be. He benefits form CP3 the most.

ShaunRiching9
11-09-2008, 11:26 PM
depends who is replacment point guard is

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 12:36 AM
Woa...chronz....seems im 2 for 2. the fact is, west is capable. i said he is better than anything tracey had in orlando, but he alone doesnt make up for the conference difference. He wouldnt be an all-star w/o CP3...it just wouldnt happen. thanks for proving my point tho.

LA_Raiders
11-10-2008, 01:42 AM
****

LeBrowns
11-10-2008, 01:48 AM
Who even thinks to bring Joakim Noah and good player in the same sentence?

superkegger
11-10-2008, 01:48 AM
I think he would go form David West to david west.

Sixerlover
11-10-2008, 01:50 AM
It depends. He wouldn't get as many open shots because his man wouldn't have to help on a driving Jannero Pargo for instance, and a Jannero Pargo wouldn't always find him under the basket wide open like Paul does. But he'd still be a good player

DreamShaker
11-10-2008, 02:36 AM
I think he would go form David West to david west.

:laugh2:

I agree with this....he would be 15-9

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-10-2008, 03:32 AM
They share a bond on the court similar to Stockton and Malone only with more pick and pop. West is one of the games best mid-range shooters and CP3's penetration opens the game up for him. The threat of the jumper allows CP3 to probe the paint under less duress and its a big reason why his inside efficiency has been in a constant rise as West has stayed healthy enough to play with him;

So what would David West be without CP3, garbage? Not even All-Star, the same, better? How substantial is their bond?

It depends. If he is not going to be playing with CP3, who are you going to give him? He would still be an all star if he was playing with, Deron, Nash, Kidd, Parker, Calderon, B Davis or any other talented guard with good court vision.

If he is going to be playing with scrubs like Rafor Alston or Anthony Carter, he would just be a good player. CP3 did not give him a good jump shot. West has the talent to perform. People always say, well if player A did not play with player B, they would not have those stats/rings. I never understood that line of thinking. If you take away CP3 from West, the Hornets still would have drafted Deron Williams, so I guess yes, West would still be an all star

Hellcrooner
11-10-2008, 03:52 AM
Nothing.

#1Mavericksfan
11-10-2008, 03:59 AM
Nothing.

:clap:

Chronz
11-10-2008, 01:53 PM
OK guys can someone explain to me as to how an All-Star player can go to being an average player?

If West is nothing without CP3 then someone explain this;

David West Assisted%
2008: Inside Shots:50% Jumpshots: 62%
2007: Inside Shots:37% Jumpshots: 70%
2006: Inside Shots:51% Jumpshots: 73%

Compared to other BigMen (Last Year)
Kevin Garnett: Inside Shots:72% Jumpshots: 65%
Dirk Nowitzki: Inside Shots:35% Jumpshots: 60%
Duncan: Inside Shots:52% Jumpshots: 49%
Yao: Inside Shots:61%% Jumpshots: 61%
Amare: Inside Shots:74% Jumpshots: 65%
Dwight: Inside Shots:68% Jumpshots: 66%
Bosh: Inside Shots:56% Jumpshots: 66%
Boozer: Inside Shots:70% Jumpshots: 72%
Gasol: Inside Shots:68% Jumpshots: 60%


The so called gimmes are overrated: Would any of the players I just listed not be all-star caliber players simply because they get a high% of their shots set up? Thats what bigmen do, they finish what their pointguards set up for them.

Chronz
11-10-2008, 01:57 PM
My question is directed to you guys


Nothing.


:clap:


Woa...chronz....seems im 2 for 2. the fact is, west is capable. i said he is better than anything tracey had in orlando, but he alone doesnt make up for the conference difference. He wouldnt be an all-star w/o CP3...it just wouldnt happen. thanks for proving my point tho.

Nope your still 0-2, you can answer the question too if you wish

JayW_1023
11-10-2008, 01:58 PM
His shooting percentage would go way down, but his averages won't.

Vinny642
11-10-2008, 01:58 PM
He would still be a good player. All star? Maybe not. But he is talented, and would still be a 19-7 player without the gimmes he gets

This is great, maybe 15-7 but close.

Chronz
11-10-2008, 02:05 PM
He didn't even have a starting job before CP3 got there so Noah is already a step ahead. I'm pretty sure if you throw any mediocre starting PF in his place, they'll be able to fill his shoes. CP3 reminds me of Nash b/c of his ability to make role players STARS.
No player has ever made a role player into a star and West was playing behind veterans


For instance take Raja Bell. The only thing he had before Nash was his shot. He wasn't known for being a defender or even a good guard. Sure he got double digits in Utah, but who else was gonna score? Then when he got in Pheonix his FG%, steals and scoring went up even though he was a 4th option.
Bell was always a defender, its why Phoenix signed him and how is Nash going to make Bell a better defender? Nash provided Bell with a buttload of open shots but he never made him into an all-star.


Then we can also take Leandro Barbosa into account. He wasn't much of a guy before Nash, BUT when Nash had incorporated him into the gameplan he not only improved statistically but he won 6th man of the year. On CP3's behalf, he took Tyson Chandler, a guy who's never averaged a double double, into his best season of his career.

Barbosa benefited from Nash in that he no longer had to run the point, though I do agree Nash is the king at making guys around him better (if by better you mean giving them alot of open jumpshots but limited touches). Chandlers development was hindered in Chicago, Byron had to drill it into him to finish everything he rebounded under the basket. I would think CP3 has a bigger effect on him than West, but the question remains, how good would West be based on the information Ive just given you. Would any of the other players be crap if you took away their gimmes?

What makes Joakim Noah better than West without CP3?

Chronz
11-10-2008, 03:12 PM
It depends. If he is not going to be playing with CP3, who are you going to give him? He would still be an all star if he was playing with, Deron, Nash, Kidd, Parker, Calderon, B Davis or any other talented guard with good court vision.

If he is going to be playing with scrubs like Rafor Alston or Anthony Carter, he would just be a good player. CP3 did not give him a good jump shot. West has the talent to perform. People always say, well if player A did not play with player B, they would not have those stats/rings. I never understood that line of thinking. If you take away CP3 from West, the Hornets still would have drafted Deron Williams, so I guess yes, West would still be an all star

Lets say from CP3 to an average starter, would he still be an all-star type player? Would any of the players I listed go from stardom to average simply based on the fact that you take away a chunk of their open looks? Can anyone name a player who went from all-star to crap just from the removal of one player?



His shooting percentage would go way down, but his averages won't.
Isnt that what people expected when Dirk lost Nash? What ended up happening was much different, he had the best 3 year stretch of his career, granted it was him entering his prime but wouldnt you expect there to be some kind of drop off from one year to the next?

Lets call it the Steve Nash effect

In 2004 the Dallas Mavericks were the best offensive team in the league and ranked 3rd in assists, In 2005 the Mavs were rated as the 4th best offensive team in the league but 26th in Assists. Clearly a change in philosophy took place, they went from a free flowing, ball movement oriented offense into more of a structured isolation offense.

Dirks play
With Nash : Jumpshot Assisted%: 73%, Close:69%
W/Out Nash: Jumpshot Assisted%: 57%, Close:45%


Obviously the trend continues on an individual basis, Dirk was forced to create more for himself and for the team but what were the overall results?

With Nash
2003
Usage%: 27.4
Offensive RTG: 117

2004
Usage%: 24.5
Offensive RTG: 116

W/out Nash:
2005
Usage%: 28.7
Offensive RTG: 118

2006
Usage%: 30.0
Offensive RTG: 123


So what evidence is there of a legit all-star going reverting to an average player just from the loss of a great playmaker?




Im asking the 2 of you specifically because I know you guys are quality posters and you wouldnt bash me for raising questions based on the theme of your the post.

DetroitPistons3
11-10-2008, 03:17 PM
plan and simple david west will ofcourse be the super star for the Hornets i think david west will be doing all the scoring for his inside game u know david west is a big man not a point guard like cp3 u need a big man like him an a true pg with its true fundamentals right now Tim duncan is in that situation if no cp3 for hornets and its just D west i guess the passing abilities will come off there jannero pargo?

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 03:23 PM
Nope your still 0-2, you can answer the question too if you wish

noticed your slip up...didnt you mean you're??? jp..the truthful jp tho

Anyway, you are reminding me a lot of GWB(George W Bush). GWB lost the popular vote(and FL technically), but it didnt matter. He had others that ensured he won. You don't have that. Your proclamation that you are right doesnt mean anything. You can think im 0-2 but reverse that cuz you got pwned twice and I havent seen 1 to disagree yet. hilarious how you continue your stance. Like I said, you're the type that cant accept being wrong.

You rely too much on numbers and not the actual finished product. I look at what I see and actual impact. I look at how he scores with CP3 and how he scores w/o(like your graph), but I also look at the fact that MOST people didnt know who he was until CP3 had his breakout season. Yes, CP3 needs capable people around him...everyone does. Regardless, he makes his teammates sooo much better its unreal. West and Chandler are both proofs of that.

In short, west has a decent inside game and solid outside game. As far as your stats, other areas are necessary. like what is his fg% on assisted buckets vs unassisted.

DetroitPistons3
11-10-2008, 03:24 PM
well i think d west will be scoring the most for the hornets u know hes more of a inside players and he did alot of that last season he really improved on that turnaround hook u know when players improve then there team improves also too lots of players last season improved for the hornets and they almost made it far in the playoffs couldnt it have been a diffrent story if the hornets didnt pickup peja stojakovic i mean he got back too his three point shooting touch and shot 200+ three pointers for yet another season wow good enough too stamp that that number of 56 games won for the hornets and this doesnt have to do with players improving there stats even thoguh there getting old and there not winning a championship it just makes no diffrence only the stats does.

Chronz
11-10-2008, 03:31 PM
Anyway, you are reminding me a lot of GWB(George W Bush). GWB lost the popular vote(and FL technically), but it didnt matter. He had others that ensured he won. You don't have that. Your proclamation that you are right doesnt mean anything. You can think im 0-2 but reverse that cuz you got pwned twice and I havent seen 1 to disagree yet. hilarious how you continue your stance. Like I said, you're the type that cant accept being wrong.
Your insecurities are being exposed in this thread and the other thread. You let 1 person respond and you jump all over it. Quit being so anxious, it looks pathetic...


You rely too much on numbers and not the actual finished product.
Those numbers are the finished product, you just dont know hot to analyze them.


I look at what I see and actual impact. I look at how he scores with CP3 and how he scores w/o(like your graph), but I also look at the fact that MOST people didnt know who he was until CP3 had his breakout season.
Again with the MOST people talk, Im not MOST people. I knew of West from the minute he started hitting that jumper with great regularity. And Ive asked you to quantify their "actual impact" yet you never back it up. I look at the same games you do but I analyze the numbers as well. Seems to me like your half assing your work yet again barrel....


Yes, CP3 needs capable people around him...everyone does. Regardless, he makes his teammates sooo much better its unreal. West and Chandler are both proofs of that.

The evidence doesnt agree with you, atleast not in the case of David West. And I havent even brought out my on/off-court player profiles yet.


In short, west has a decent inside game and solid outside game. As far as your stats, other areas are necessary. like what is his fg% on assisted buckets vs unassisted.

His FG% or assisted baskets is 100%, his FG% on unassisted baskets is 100%


Please dont make this into another lengthy argument that gos no where, this thread wasnt made for us to engage. Its meant to be the medium between our personal debate.

MiamiHeat
11-10-2008, 03:35 PM
He would probably be a Udonis Haslem but with less heart :)

Chronz
11-10-2008, 03:42 PM
He would probably be a Udonis Haslem but with less heart :)

So your saying Udonis Haslem would be an all-star if paired with a great player? err wait doesnt he have D-Wade?

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 03:42 PM
Your insecurities are being exposed in this thread and the other thread. You let 1 person respond and you jump all over it. Quit being so anxious, it looks pathetic...

His FG% or assisted baskets is 100%, his FG% on unassisted baskets is 100%


Please dont make this into another lengthy argument that gos no where, this thread wasnt made for us to engage. Its meant to be the medium between our personal debate.

i refuse to get into another battle with you...so far ive won every discussion we've had. weed, seedings, now tmac's leadership, cp3 making david west, and soon gooden and chandler being comparable despite styles. so why would i EVER be insecure against you? and its funny that you say 1 person when in actuality, the majority have agreed that hed be no all-star w/o cp3. my GWB comparison was pretty accurate. but im not surprised you either dont agree or are too high strung to just accept it. signs of your insecurity???

regardless, thats(the bolded) impossible if he shoots like 40-50%. you just said he's made everything not only this year, but the past 3 years(since thats the viewing scale for cp3) can we not be rediculous...or in your case inept?

and if its meant to be the medium, why are you the only one getting a say in it then? its either neither of us can say anything...or both can. na strike that, say all you want. like i said in my pm...its on you to state your case to the people. gl Mccain. Obama runs you.

MiamiHeat
11-10-2008, 03:46 PM
So your saying Udonis Haslem would be an all-star if paired with a great player? err wait doesnt he have D-Wade?

of course, CP3 is the best PG in the NBA, Wade isn't a PG but he does make his teammates better not as good as CP3 though. Haslem stats are pretty good right now, West and Haslem have about the same stats only West is scoring more

WEST
19 ppg
6.7 rpg

HASLEM
15ppg
7.2rpg

Chronz
11-10-2008, 04:00 PM
i refuse to get into another battle with you...so far ive won every discussion we've had. weed, seedings,
Nope, thats why you refused to bring them up again even though they were pertaining to your initial arguments, again dont bring up things that have nothing to do with this thread.


now tmac's leadership, cp3 making david west, and soon gooden and chandler being comparable despite styles. so why would i EVER be insecure against you?
Your insecure because you let 1 person respond before giving your input. And the dude actually said HELL NAW. lol


and its funny that you say 1 person when in actuality,

PROOF: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291035

Countem people, is that 1 person? I think it is, should I make a new poll asking if you can count? In this one you didnt even let the pages add up.


the majority have agreed that hed be no all-star w/o cp3.
We're still waiting on that so far the study has been sound, even you couldnt answer it and I gave you the option of PMing me the response


my GWB comparison was pretty accurate. but im not surprised you either dont agree or are too high strung to just accept it. signs of your insecurity???
Wait are you actually asking me to debate the GWB comparison, lol your really grasping at straws now.


regardless, thats(the bolded) impossible if he shoots like 40-50%. you just said he's made everything not only this year, but the past 3 years(since thats the viewing scale for cp3) can we not be rediculous...or in your case inept?

FG% on made shots is always 100%, lol inept indeed.


and if its meant to be the medium, why are you the only one getting a say in it then? its either neither of us can say anything...or both can. na strike
LEARN TO READ. I said you can respond, just stay on the subject at hand. Dont make this another pointless debate where you just say the opposite of what I say only you dont bring up facts.


that, say all you want. like i said in my pm...its on you to state your case to the people. gl Mccain. Obama runs you.

You look more desperate with each posts

Chronz
11-10-2008, 04:04 PM
of course, CP3 is the best PG in the NBA, Wade isn't a PG but he does make his teammates better not as good as CP3 though. Haslem stats are pretty good right now, West and Haslem have about the same stats only West is scoring more

WEST
19 ppg
6.7 rpg

HASLEM
15ppg
7.2rpg

ok if thats truly your stance then name a player whos gone from putting up Haslem numbers (for an entire season) to West #'s for an entire season. What is the basis behind your logic? There must be some sort of precedent to have taken place in order for you to come up with such wild accusations.

Jimmy3702
11-10-2008, 04:09 PM
He would gain a lot less Assists.

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 04:18 PM
Nope, thats why you refused to bring them up again even though they were pertaining to your initial arguments, again dont bring up things that have nothing to do with this thread.

Wait are you actually asking me to debate the GWB comparison, lol your really grasping at straws now.


FG% on made shots is always 100%, lol inept indeed.


LEARN TO READ. I said you can respond, just stay on the subject at hand. Dont make this another pointless debate where you just say the opposite of what I say only you dont bring up facts.


You look more desperate with each posts

again with personal attacks...im beginning to thin you actually KNOW you could never(or extremely rarely) best me. pathetic. and yes, that was only 1 poster...i was actually talking about THIS post having more than 1. idc about the gooden 1. they are comparable considering th original discussion however(which you neglected to expound upon at all). and about the fg% on made shots...thats funny...see i can laugh at myself...can you? regardless. show me some stats with meaning. give me charts and percentages on ALL his shots please and thank you. learn to not tell someone what to do. you aint my momma, my daddy, the president(lol), nor god...tho your arrogance makes me think you may beg to differ. and how did that look desperate? you seem more ******** with each post. im looking desperate for saying im right until proven wrong??? wow ur dumb...dumb as hell. get over yourself. that isnt desperation in the least

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 04:22 PM
Hell NAW!!!!! Tyson Chandler is an Alley Oop MONSTER!!! Gooden is ok, but since Tyson has CP3 he's gonna get more shine than Drew

implies to me that gooden would be better on his own...meaniing he's mainly better because of cp3

SteveNash
11-10-2008, 04:46 PM
He didn't even have a starting job before CP3 got there so Noah is already a step ahead. I'm pretty sure if you throw any mediocre starting PF in his place, they'll be able to fill his shoes. CP3 reminds me of Nash b/c of his ability to make role players STARS. For instance take Raja Bell. The only thing he had before Nash was his shot. He wasn't known for being a defender or even a good guard. Sure he got double digits in Utah, but who else was gonna score? Then when he got in Pheonix his FG%, steals and scoring went up even though he was a 4th option. Then we can also take Leandro Barbosa into account. He wasn't much of a guy before Nash, BUT when Nash had incorporated him into the gameplan he not only improved statistically but he won 6th man of the year. On CP3's behalf, he took Tyson Chandler, a guy who's never averaged a double double, into his best season of his career.

Are you actually trying to say Steve Nash made Raja Bell a better defender?

And you know Barbosa one the sixth man by coming off the bench, not playing along side Steve Nash all the time.

If Chris Paul was taken off the team, West per game stats might raise a little bit because he has to take on a bigger role, but his efficiency would decline. He probably wouldn't be an All-Star because the Hornets wouldn't have one of the best records in the league.

Chronz
11-10-2008, 04:50 PM
DIRECTED towards you barrel

AHH so you can evaluate a posters merit, youve come a long way. Thats why you let people vote and ask them why, you complained about the way I worded the question yet Ive only used the words that you chose to use on me. Heres the thing though, its STILL ONLY 1 PERSON, so what exactly did you prove with that excessive rambling?

That implies insecurity, IMO. I know you get that sense that you think Im saying my word is that of some god but thats really your melodramatic style speaking. Whether its true or not is irrelevant you simply jump at every chance. Relax guy your on the edge and its not something to be proud of.


Ive shown you the % of so called gimme's in his shot selection. Wherever David West gos hes still going to set great screens and hit the open pop shot. Now you say without CP3 he doesnt get open, but I counter by saying without West, the opposing teams bigman has no reason to respect West jumper and focus on trapping the ball handlers. ITS BASKETBALL 101. They COMPLIMENT eachothers game, Stockton2Malone wasnt a one sided affair. WHAT DONT YOU GET???

Chronz
11-10-2008, 04:54 PM
Are you actually trying to say Steve Nash made Raja Bell a better defender?

And you know Barbosa one the sixth man by coming off the bench, not playing along side Steve Nash all the time.

If Chris Paul was taken off the team, West per game stats might raise a little bit because he has to take on a bigger role, but his efficiency would decline. He probably wouldn't be an All-Star because the Hornets wouldn't have one of the best records in the league.

Happens all the time, players play the same or better but their lack of team success costs them an all-star birth. The term all-star shouldnt be held literally. Is Deron Williams not an all-star because hes never made the team? Thats not very sound logic.

West would still be West anywhere he went.








Im not going to bother wasting so many posts so from now on Im just editing my older ones. This is too easy it doesnt deserve any more bandwidth


COMPREHEND THIS mr inept

ALL I SAID WAS HE WOULDNT BE AN ALL-STAR
I KNOW WHAT YOU SAID

Its why I CREATED this thread


that's it. stfu. damn. he wouldnt be. its that simple. everyone else agrees. why cant you? the man barely made it last year, and ONLY got it because of his teams record and because of CP3

What would be different about his play? THATS WHAT MATTERS



and, yep...i complained...make it fair...not 1 sided.
I used YOUR OWN WORDS. If I made it unfair its only because you set that up yourself.


otherwise it isnt really very interesting. I know you are very arrogant. you think FAR too highly of yourself. im not the only one to call attention to it. look at me last thread...you suck...over
Thats because you fail to understand the context of any of my posts. All of your posts sound the same.

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 04:55 PM
AHH so you can evaluate a posters merit, youve come a long way. Thats why you let people vote and ask them why, you complained about the way I worded the question yet Ive only used the words that you chose to use on me. Heres the thing though, its STILL ONLY 1 PERSON, so what exactly did you prove with that excessive rambling?

That implies insecurity, IMO. I know you get that sense that you think Im saying my word is that of some god but thats really your melodramatic style speaking. Whether its true or not is irrelevant you simply jump at every chance. Relax guy your on the edge and its not something to be proud of.


Ive shown you the % of so called gimme's in his shot selection. Wherever David West gos hes still going to set great screens and hit the open pop shot. Now you say without CP3 he doesnt get open, but I counter by saying without West, the opposing teams bigman has no reason to respect West jumper and focus on trapping the ball handlers. ITS BASKETBALL 101. They COMPLIMENT eachothers game, Stockton2Malone wasnt a one sided affair. WHAT DONT YOU GET???

COMPREHEND THIS mr inept

ALL I SAID WAS HE WOULDNT BE AN ALL-STAR

that's it. stfu. damn. he wouldnt be. its that simple. everyone else agrees. why cant you? the man barely made it last year, and ONLY got it because of his teams record and because of CP3

and, yep...i complained...make it fair...not 1 sided. otherwise it isnt really very interesting. I know you are very arrogant. you think FAR too highly of yourself. im not the only one to call attention to it. look at me last thread...you suck...over

Faneik
11-10-2008, 05:00 PM
LOL

Why don't you guys just agree to disagree? You've on each other for days.

jcphik
11-10-2008, 05:02 PM
i say a 14-6 kinda guy

Chronz
11-10-2008, 05:07 PM
LOL

Why don't you guys just agree to disagree? You've on each other for days.

Its barely getting started man, but I think we've wasted enough bandwidth so from now on I wont be replying but editing.

Faneik
11-10-2008, 05:10 PM
To answer to the topic, West is a talented and versatile guy.

Having a great PG like Paul next to him really helps his game, so I think it's reasonable to think that West's numbers would go down (not much) if Paul wasn't there.

SteveNash
11-10-2008, 05:11 PM
Happens all the time, players play the same or better but their lack of team success costs them an all-star birth. The term all-star shouldnt be held literally. Is Deron Williams not an all-star because hes never made the team? Thats not very sound logic.

West would still be West anywhere he went.

I wouldn't put West as an All Star status right now, but I see him getting to that level with Paul, playing in the All Star game last year, playing well against Duncan in the playoffs, getting more national TV coverage are all things that will put him on a path of an All Star. Without Paul he'd be more like an Antawn Jamison who is an All Star in a literal sense, but not one in my eyes.

LA_cabals
11-10-2008, 05:55 PM
Barreleffact and Chronz

If I were to arbitrate your debate purely based on the evidence and facts given, Chronz wins the argument in a landslide. At the very least he is presenting more than just an "I told you so" opinion, He has shown stats to support his case. You Barreleffact, in my opinion, have not made a single post with why you believe D. West would not be an allstar with any type reason to support your case other than C. Paul is an All-Star point guard feeding him the ball. In fact, you have consistently veered off-topic.

As far as the debate of whether D. West would be an All-Star with\without C. Paul goes... I don't buy into the hype that this PG or that C makes you a All-Star player. IMO that's just the media hyping up that certain "playmaker" to be that great player he is, sorta like a compliment to his game. The only thing C. Paul has given D. West is name recognition, and look how far that took him. He was voted an All-Star by the coaches not by popularity. D. West was an All-Star because HE played like an All-Star and HE made his shots when HE was suppose to, not because C. Paul made them for him or gave him double digit rebounds. If it was indeed C. Paul who made D. West an All-Star than he should have no problem making Kwame Brown into a perennial All-Star. Could it be that D. West just had a breakout year last season, and will return to his old form even with C. Paul as his PG this year?

Faneik
11-10-2008, 06:16 PM
It's undeniable that West deserves credit for being selected as an All-Star.

He was putting great numbers, his team was playing great and winning so he made a strong case for himself to be chosen by the coaches.

But, take a look at this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Z9r-1cAvg
His PG penetrates, draws a double team and dishes out to West for a game-winner. Doesn't Paul deserve some credit on that play too?


Let's not forget Paul was a 21 pts/12 assists player last year.

All I'm saying is that if your PG has the skills that make him a direct threat on offense, therefore other teams sometimes have to double team him, plus that same PG has great court vision to find the open man, job gets easier for that PG teammates.

And lots of times West is that open man...

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 06:17 PM
Barreleffact and Chronz

If I were to arbitrate your debate purely based on the evidence and facts given, Chronz wins the argument in a landslide. At the very least he is presenting more than just an "I told you so" opinion, He has shown stats to support his case. You Barreleffact, in my opinion, have not made a single post with why you believe D. West would not be an allstar with any type reason to support your case other than C. Paul is an All-Star point guard feeding him the ball. In fact, you have consistently veered off-topic.

As far as the debate of whether D. West would be an All-Star with\without C. Paul goes... I don't buy into the hype that this PG or that C makes you a All-Star player. IMO that's just the media hyping up that certain "playmaker" to be that great player he is, sorta like a compliment to his game. The only thing C. Paul has given D. West is name recognition, and look how far that took him. He was voted an All-Star by the coaches not by popularity. D. West was an All-Star because HE played like an All-Star and HE made his shots when HE was suppose to, not because C. Paul made them for him or gave him double digit rebounds. If it was indeed C. Paul who made D. West an All-Star than he should have no problem making Kwame Brown into a perennial All-Star. Could it be that D. West just had a breakout year last season, and will return to his old form even with C. Paul as his PG this year?

because most peopel have agreed. why would i need to prove anything? he has to be the one to disprove me before its necessary to argue.

i dont buy into him being anything tooo special w/o cp3. yes west has to be the one to make the shot, but its a lot easier when you arent under duress because his man has collapsed onto paul. Nobody could make Kwame into an all-star. You still have to have talent. paul just draws it all out. the thing is I have never doubted West's talent. Not once!!! The man is talented. He has a mid range game, but its easier when paul is hitting him up at the perfect time.

All i said is west wouldnt have been an all-star. other players have put up his numbers or better and have gotten snubbed. 20 and 9 is his max, and if you take away his pick and pop he wouldnt be that great. that isnt horrible to say because he has that. I just dnt understand why its seen as a diss. it isnt. its the truth actually. He has a smooth J, with decent D(not great), not the best rebounder, not the biggest post threat. I could probably name 3 PF's in each conference better than he is...IE more allstar worthy. again, not a diss but its the truth.

did Jordan make players better??? how...by your argument he cant hit shots for anyone. I honestly dont know exactly why player A elevates an entire team, but player B who is just as talented cannot. Paul and jordan elevated their teams to unfathomable depths. jordan turned 2 teams with no post elite into dynasties. and paul has turned the hornets into contenders. how?? idk considering a lot of people draw doubles and can pass. but he does. and you could put almost anyone else in pauls place and the team would fall apart.

ee
11-10-2008, 06:19 PM
who knows:eyebrow:

Faneik
11-10-2008, 06:28 PM
And from what I read about Chris Paul, one of the things that other players (not only teammates), coaches, GM's, media, most admire in him it's his ability to elevate his teammates' games.

Lakers4ItAll
11-10-2008, 07:08 PM
Allstars are allstars no matter who they play with.

barreleffact
11-10-2008, 07:15 PM
Allstars are allstars no matter who they play with.

thats superstars

arlubas
11-11-2008, 02:44 AM
Like someone said already West would be pretty good even without CP3 cause he has the offensive moves in the post and the mid range jumper to be effective. Tyson Chandler on the other hand should built a statue in honor of Paul because through his passing (CP3) he (Chandler) has made up for his lack of offensive abilities through his athleticism grabbing all those alley oops Paul throws at him.

West could've been an all star on a different team imo if the circumstances favored that. Chandler on the other hand would just be a good defensive presence in the post and nothing more than that just like he was on the Bulls.

sunsalltheway03
11-11-2008, 03:13 AM
CP3 still can't shoot the ball for West. West has game. He has that jumper. He has skills. He's not just some guy who is only good because he has CP3. West was touted coming out of Xavier. He is a great player with inside and outside skills. Yes, of course playing with CP3 will definitely add on to your game, but I don't think its an end all that CP3 made David West who he is.

Lone Maverick
11-11-2008, 04:09 AM
He'd be a talented player. Its not like he'd be a bum or anything, he'd still have skills. I can see both sides of the fence on this one tbh but CP3 and D-West are just too players who are great at doing there respective jobs. CP3 gets his guys open shots, and alley oops. No matter how open West gets he still has to knock down the shots. His percentage would probably drop but he'd average around the same more or less.

LakerzDQ
11-11-2008, 09:19 AM
West would be less efficient right now, and he would've taken longer to develop into a good player.

David West has some talent, and he would have become a good player with time. however, his growth was sped up by CP3's playmaking abilities.

you can tell, because when CP3 was drafted, and when he was a ROY, David West had his breakout season.

$ NyC $
11-11-2008, 09:38 AM
I don't think he would be an all-star, and its not the media hyping up CP3, because West gets so many open shots just off of Paul. He would normally have to work for those shots. I still see him as being a solid player w.o Paul though. Around 17 + 8

Flash812
11-11-2008, 01:44 PM
West has turned into a great offensive player, his jump shot is money, he can creat his own shot and has low post moves. I would not want to see what he could do for another team, I love the guy too much for him to leave N.O. While Paul is our superstar in N.O. West is a guy that everyone loves because of his work ethic, heart and being a down to earth guy who doesn't want the attention that superstars want. I think he would be a all-star somewhere else, he will only get voted by coaches though and they all know he is deserving by what he does and not what paul does for him.

Kaptain Kanada
11-11-2008, 01:58 PM
West without CP3 = shite

SteveNash
11-11-2008, 02:02 PM
But, take a look at this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Z9r-1cAvg
His PG penetrates, draws a double team and dishes out to West for a game-winner. Doesn't Paul deserve some credit on that play too?

No, Paul drove wrecklessly into the paint, traveled, was surrounded by defenders, and had to give the ball up to West. It was West that made Paul look good on that play, not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-eTQhRDpe0

at :23 West is doubled because Pauls lack of a consistent outside shot.

at :51 Paul creates an easy basket for West this is the only time in the video that you could say Paul really made West better.

1:43 is the only other one you could really argue, but really that play was created by West hustling down the floor more than anything Paul did.

So you see the whole making players so much better is just a myth.

Tyson Chandler is a better poit, but you're really looking at the difference of 6 PPG instead of 10 PPG so it's really not all that huge.

dre1990
11-11-2008, 02:15 PM
still good player. maybe a 1 or 2 time all star in his carrer

wolf3742
11-11-2008, 02:24 PM
West is one of those self made palyers. He practiced alot to be where he is right now. Cp3 did not make him better, he did it himself. It is just a perfect chemistry with CP3 and West on how they play.

If West does not have CP3, he can still get the same amount of rebounds. I think his scoring will only be down by 4 or 5 as max with the same precision.

Lost Art
11-11-2008, 02:46 PM
I really think that it's Tyson Chandler that benefits the most from CP3. West has such a pure jumper and has nice footwork in the post, I think he'd still be a really good player. Depending on the quality of his other teammates, he could still be an allstar. He actually goes 1-on-1 more than you might think if you watch the Hornets play. He's not really a strong finisher and doesn't get a whole lot of the dunks and easy baskets that some of the other Hornet's players get. CP3 does get him some open jumpers, but he still has to put the ball in the hole.

Chronz
11-13-2008, 02:24 PM
Sorry for the long delay, had s rough stretch with work but its time to continue the never ending debate....



To answer to the topic, West is a talented and versatile guy.

Having a great PG like Paul next to him really helps his game, so I think it's reasonable to think that West's numbers would go down (not much) if Paul wasn't there.

I think its reasonable to expect him to improve as the absence of his playmaker forces him to become more aggressive like several all-stars have before but like you said the difference is negligible, hes still going to be the same player.


I wouldn't put West as an All Star status right now, but I see him getting to that level with Paul, playing in the All Star game last year, playing well against Duncan in the playoffs, getting more national TV coverage are all things that will put him on a path of an All Star. Without Paul he'd be more like an Antawn Jamison who is an All Star in a literal sense, but not one in my eyes.
To be honest I felt the same way last year, he wasnt really deserving but because of the teams surprise season they had to give credit to someone other than CP3. Still though your talking about peoples perception of him improving, Im talking about his actual play. CP3 brings the media attention but West is the guy who has to perform to justify the selection. I feel he hasnt but the point is will he play significantly worse without CP3?


It's undeniable that West deserves credit for being selected as an All-Star.

He was putting great numbers, his team was playing great and winning so he made a strong case for himself to be chosen by the coaches.

But, take a look at this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Z9r-1cAvg
His PG penetrates, draws a double team and dishes out to West for a game-winner. Doesn't Paul deserve some credit on that play too?


Let's not forget Paul was a 21 pts/12 assists player last year.

All I'm saying is that if your PG has the skills that make him a direct threat on offense, therefore other teams sometimes have to double team him, plus that same PG has great court vision to find the open man, job gets easier for that PG teammates.

And lots of times West is that open man...
Yes he sets him up, but so does every other player for his teammates. Thats what basketball is about, Duncan has someone to set him up, Amare, Yao, Dirk, KG. THEY ALL get set up but its their ability to make the shot that gives the player the assist. Its a 2-way street, what if on that play it was some stiff who couldnt hit that jumper? They obviously wouldnt draw up a play like that but they also wouldnt be able to. CP3 may or may not be making West better, interpretations of that are unclear but the difference is pretty small either way, thats been my point the whole time. Saying the West gets alot of open shots doesnt prove anything other than hes the same as everyone else. And like everyone else, the sudden loss of all those open shots doesnt automatically mean he will be exponentially worse for it.


I dont deny CP3 provides the jumpshots, but West sets the screens provides the threat of the shot that frees up CP3' penetration and gives him the option of kicking it back out. They make eachother BETTER, but neither one would be dramatically worse without the other.

Chronz
11-13-2008, 02:52 PM
because most peopel have agreed. why would i need to prove anything? he has to be the one to disprove me before its necessary to argue.
Most of the people that agreed with you havent responded.


i dont buy into him being anything tooo special w/o cp3. yes west has to be the one to make the shot, but its a lot easier when you arent under duress because his man has collapsed onto paul.
Its alot easier for CP3 to finish in the paint when he has 2 dynamic finishers and the elite 3pt shooters to space the floor for him, whats your point?


Nobody could make Kwame into an all-star. You still have to have talent. paul just draws it all out. the thing is I have never doubted West's talent. Not once!!! The man is talented. He has a mid range game, but its easier when paul is hitting him up at the perfect time.
Obviously, but nobody can make any player into an all-star. Thats my point, West would still be just as good if he were anywhere else, his name recognition wouldnt be the same but thats only because most people dont pay attention to players who arent in the public eye.


All i said is west wouldnt have been an all-star. other players have put up his numbers or better and have gotten snubbed. 20 and 9 is his max, and if you take away his pick and pop he wouldnt be that great. that isnt horrible to say because he has that. I just dnt understand why its seen as a diss. it isnt. its the truth actually. He has a smooth J, with decent D(not great), not the best rebounder, not the biggest post threat. I could probably name 3 PF's in each conference better than he is...IE more allstar worthy. again, not a diss but its the truth.


Your EXACT WORDS WERE: He gets so many open looks its UNREAL. If the amount of open shots he gets is unreal then so are the ones KG gets or Boozer or Dirk (W/Nash) etc....

Then of course there was the infamous west was a nobody to most people, somehow me saying that I knew of West before he became an all-star was taken as me being arrogant. Facts are even before his All-Star selection West was very much playing the same way he had been the 2 years prior only difference is he got more recognition as the Hornets stayed healthy.

You tried to convey the thought that CP3 somehow made West what he is today. That just isnt true, West put in the work. West and CP3 make eachother better, there is no 1 sided relationship here.



did Jordan make players better??? how...by your argument he cant hit shots for anyone. I honestly dont know exactly why player A elevates an entire team, but player B who is just as talented cannot. Paul and jordan elevated their teams to unfathomable depths. jordan turned 2 teams with no post elite into dynasties. and paul has turned the hornets into contenders. how?? idk considering a lot of people draw doubles and can pass. but he does. and you could put almost anyone else in pauls place and the team would fall apart.

MJ making players around him better is also overrated. He won games because HE was that damn good. He often willed his teams out of horrible offensive funks in key stretches. He was just so damn efficient that you couldnt stop him. He provided his shooters like Kerr with open shots and without him they struggled, but they werent all-stars. The TRUE all-stars like Pippen or Kukoc got better without MJ. They didnt get as many open looks but they adapted.

Chronz
11-13-2008, 02:59 PM
I really think that it's Tyson Chandler that benefits the most from CP3. West has such a pure jumper and has nice footwork in the post, I think he'd still be a really good player. Depending on the quality of his other teammates, he could still be an allstar. He actually goes 1-on-1 more than you might think if you watch the Hornets play. He's not really a strong finisher and doesn't get a whole lot of the dunks and easy baskets that some of the other Hornet's players get. CP3 does get him some open jumpers, but he still has to put the ball in the hole.
I think we are all in agreement with Chandler depending more on CP3's penetration for his OFFENSE than any other Hornet.



You know what this reminds me of, Kenyon Martin leaving Kidd and how he was supposeably going to suck without Kidd. Unless Kidd had something to do with him never getting injured he was basically the same player offensively.

JordansBulls
11-13-2008, 04:34 PM
Most of the people that agreed with you havent responded.


Its alot easier for CP3 to finish in the paint when he has 2 dynamic finishers and the elite 3pt shooters to space the floor for him, whats your point?


Obviously, but nobody can make any player into an all-star. Thats my point, West would still be just as good if he were anywhere else, his name recognition wouldnt be the same but thats only because most people dont pay attention to players who arent in the public eye.



Your EXACT WORDS WERE: He gets so many open looks its UNREAL. If the amount of open shots he gets is unreal then so are the ones KG gets or Boozer or Dirk (W/Nash) etc....

Then of course there was the infamous west was a nobody to most people, somehow me saying that I knew of West before he became an all-star was taken as me being arrogant. Facts are even before his All-Star selection West was very much playing the same way he had been the 2 years prior only difference is he got more recognition as the Hornets stayed healthy.

You tried to convey the thought that CP3 somehow made West what he is today. That just isnt true, West put in the work. West and CP3 make eachother better, there is no 1 sided relationship here.



MJ making players around him better is also overrated. He won games because HE was that damn good. He often willed his teams out of horrible offensive funks in key stretches. He was just so damn efficient that you couldnt stop him. He provided his shooters like Kerr with open shots and without him they struggled, but they werent all-stars. The TRUE all-stars like Pippen or Kukoc got better without MJ. They didnt get as many open looks but they adapted.

It's not overrated at all. He did have a part in making others better. If you ever played basketball you would know if you repeatedly play against the same guys on a daily or weekly basis you learn from one another especially when you are relatively the same height and weight and play a similar position. Pippen deserves a lot of credit for becoming a star as well, but a lot of that credit also goes to MJ especially the mental part.
A guy like Tyrus Thomas coming him had the same athleticism as Pippen, he just doesn't have anyone to guide him.

Chronz
11-13-2008, 05:22 PM
It's not overrated at all. He did have a part in making others better. If you ever played basketball you would know if you repeatedly play against the same guys on a daily or weekly basis you learn from one another especially when you are relatively the same height and weight and play a similar position. Pippen deserves a lot of credit for becoming a star as well, but a lot of that credit also goes to MJ especially the mental part.
A guy like Tyrus Thomas coming him had the same athleticism as Pippen, he just doesn't have anyone to guide him.
Its overrated if you think Pippen wouldnt have been great anywhere else, MJ has played alongside plenty of players and not all of them improved the way Pippen did even if they were of similar build.

Its up to Pippen to put in the work, to emulate someones skills or better himself and he doesnt need the actual player to help him improve. If youve ever reviewed your game footage you would know of the advantages that come from viewing the ultimate perspective on yourself. Coaching and practice have their part but Im not going to give anyone else the credit for the player putting in the effort. I dont thank Orlando's coaching staff for bringing the best out of Tmac, I give Tmac the lionshare of the credit for wanting to improve that badly.

For all we know Pippen couldve developed anywhere else and been just as good if not greater. MJ shielded him from much of the criticism and pressures of being a leader and when the time finally came for Pippen to lead he was a drama queen. Should I blame MJ for that? NO it was just his first year as the leader and he performed admirably. Had Pippen gone to Seattle and been fed to the wolves from the get go he may have been a better player at that stage in his career. But to be honest the triangle was just perfect for him.

As for Tyrus Thomas, he needs alot more than Pippen athletic ability to become the next Pippen. Pippen was always a smart player, he just wasnt instinctive. Everyone chalks it up to him growing up as a PG for being so unselfish but once he got comfortable with his frame and style of play he was damn good.

barreleffact
11-13-2008, 05:36 PM
Its alot easier for CP3 to finish in the paint when he has 2 dynamic finishers and the elite 3pt shooters to space the floor for him, whats your point?


Obviously, but nobody can make any player into an all-star. Thats my point, West would still be just as good if he were anywhere else, his name recognition wouldnt be the same but thats only because most people dont pay attention to players who arent in the public eye.



Your EXACT WORDS WERE: He gets so many open looks its UNREAL. If the amount of open shots he gets is unreal then so are the ones KG gets or Boozer or Dirk (W/Nash) etc....

Then of course there was the infamous west was a nobody to most people, somehow me saying that I knew of West before he became an all-star was taken as me being arrogant. Facts are even before his All-Star selection West was very much playing the same way he had been the 2 years prior only difference is he got more recognition as the Hornets stayed healthy.

You tried to convey the thought that CP3 somehow made West what he is today. That just isnt true, West put in the work. West and CP3 make eachother better, there is no 1 sided relationship here.



MJ making players around him better is also overrated. He won games because HE was that damn good. He often willed his teams out of horrible offensive funks in key stretches. He was just so damn efficient that you couldnt stop him. He provided his shooters like Kerr with open shots and without him they struggled, but they werent all-stars. The TRUE all-stars like Pippen or Kukoc got better without MJ. They didnt get as many open looks but they adapted.

1- I both agree and disagree with that. The fact that he has West and Peja to sink J's and Tyson to lob it to would make it easier for him to drive. But defenses sink in on him every play. Its a tougher shot over 2 or 3 defenders because they'd rather give up a 50/50 shot than a 70+% layup. Their shooting abilities definately put pressure on the defense, but I can almost guarantee you that West and all his shooters are left open far more than pauls driving lane is.

2- True, I've heard that West doesnt want to be in the media. He doesnt want that superstardom. He just wants to play. But Cp3 made him into an allstar. His penetration opens up shots for him to sink. W/o CP3 most agreed that his points would go down 4 or 5, or he would get the same numbers less effectively. assuming its the 1st, that would be implying that 15 and 9 is good enough for the all-star team....I just don't see it unless it's a center. Plus, that team overachieved because Paul is teh perfect point guard for that system and can tailor to each players game. If paul didn't have them 2nd in the west...nobody was making that all-star team.

3- valid argument

4- You were taken as arrogant because you claimed you're above the "common man." phrases like that are arrogant. Even if you sad you pay more attention than the avid watcher or typical fan, that woulsd have been fine...but "common man" was going a little overboard. regardless, you and a few others knew about him. Most people I spoke with, that knew of him, knew of him from college first.

However, West started to show major improvement whe paul got to the hornets. Of course, he put in the work to be a capable player, but you really can't deny Paul's impact.

5- Right, talent needs talent to suceed. But West showed his biggest improvement when Paul arrived. Paul's fame spread down to his teammates and got West's name known. The team success got West into that all-star game. He isnt good enough to have a crappy team like VC, Tmac, Wade last year, etc and still make the cut. He's more like a Caron Butler or Antawn Jamison or Marion...all VERY talented players, but if their teams arent good enough, they arent makin the all-star team. Same with West. Paul run's and is most responsible for that team. If it fail's its on Paul, If it succeeds...same thing. So Paul's success made West an all-star. transitive property :)....and I know yu hate absolutes like that, but thats how i see it. the leader of teh team IS most responsible. it comes with the job.

6- Nobody, not even Jordan wins by themselves on a regular basis. Jordan getting Kerr and Pip open is the same as Paul getting West open. It isnt like Paul cant drop 30 on a team with ease. the man scores at will, but he chooses his shots.

Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree. Sound even??? but for the record, what is your take on paul? Do you find it unearthly to believe that he is now, or could be better than lebron? and what does your actual ranking of top 4 perimeter players look like in order? Off topic but im curious because nobody really wants to accept that Paul just might be better than Lebron.

mlisica19
11-13-2008, 05:46 PM
what would the hornets do without Cp3...


he makes everyone on his team better. Tyson is an olympian cuz of him!

Chronz
11-14-2008, 05:33 PM
1- I both agree and disagree with that. The fact that he has West and Peja to sink J's and Tyson to lob it to would make it easier for him to drive. But defenses sink in on him every play. Its a tougher shot over 2 or 3 defenders because they'd rather give up a 50/50 shot than a 70+% layup.
CP3 doesnt take those shots, he hits the open man. Its his role to maximize possessions, its what makes him so great offensively. The fact remains he gets more probing opportunities because of his shooters, it helps his game. Give him zero spacing and what does he become, either way hes going to be CP3 he'll just have it harder.


Their shooting abilities definately put pressure on the defense, but I can almost guarantee you that West and all his shooters are left open far more than pauls driving lane is.

I can guarantee Paul gets more open shots in the paint than any other PG in the league. Look at Nash now that they dont space the floor the way they used to, the guy is still great his role is just different.



2- True, I've heard that West doesnt want to be in the media. He doesnt want that superstardom. He just wants to play. But Cp3 made him into an allstar.
He didnt make him an all-star


His penetration opens up shots for him to sink.
Shots that hes worked effortlessly to make with consistency, without him making the shot CP3 doesnt get the assist. MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP


W/o CP3 most agreed that his points would go down 4 or 5, or he would get the same numbers less effectively. assuming its the 1st, that would be implying that 15 and 9 is good enough for the all-star team....I just don't see it unless it's a center.
Those who said that had no logical deductions other than taking away the so called gimmes that he gets but those were proven not to be very telling of a players regression to the mean, if any. If he doesnt have CP3 his offensive burden would increase and depending on the players around him and what stage in his career hes at, he could easily have a career best season. He could go up or down either way it wouldnt be significant enough to justify CP3 MAKING him an ALL-STAR.


Plus, that team overachieved because Paul is teh perfect point guard for that system and can tailor to each players game. If paul didn't have them 2nd in the west...nobody was making that all-star team.
They wouldnt be 2nd in the west if David West didnt hit that shot with such regularity and provide valuable scoring punch from the front court, or if Tyson Chandler wasnt such an explosive an athlete and dominating rebounder giving CP3 extra possessions helping him dictate tempo, or if Peja hadnt been such a dangerous marksmen that you couldnt trap CP3 all game, or if ANY of them had missed significant time to injuries (they were by far the healthiest team last year). There are too many variables to the game than simply crediting Chris Paul for getting them in 2nd, thats as dumb as people thinking Kobe was any less of a player for being an 8th seed.


3- valid argument
All of them have been


4- You were taken as arrogant because you claimed you're above the "common man." phrases like that are arrogant.
They only arrogant if your ignorant enough to take it that way. You cant comprehend the context, saying MOST PEOPLE is holding me to the standard you find to be the common man.


Even if you sad you pay more attention than the avid watcher or typical fan, that woulsd have been fine...but "common man" was going a little overboard. regardless, you and a few others knew about him. Most people I spoke with, that knew of him, knew of him from college first.
Lets drop this, chop it up to a misunderstanding its getting petty ....
However, West started to show major improvement whe paul got to the hornets. Of course, he put in the work to be a capable player, but you really can't deny Paul's impact.


5- Right, talent needs talent to suceed. But West showed his biggest improvement when Paul arrived.
Correlation does NOT equal causation. David West was developing every year and he had a few bumps along the way. He got where he was because he worked on his game, not because CP3 MADE HIM INTO AN ALLSTAR


Paul's fame spread down to his teammates and got West's name known. The team success got West into that all-star game.
Your still talking about peoples perception of him instead of his actual level of play. It doesnt matter if people know about him or not. Is Deron Williams not an all-star because hes never made the team?


He isnt good enough to have a crappy team like VC, Tmac, Wade last year, etc and still make the cut. He's more like a Caron Butler or Antawn Jamison or Marion...all VERY talented players, but if their teams arent good enough, they arent makin the all-star team. Same with West.
This is why he have conflicting viewpoints on the game, I talk about a players game, your talking about his fame. He is good enough to be the same player he is without CP3, why should I care whether or not he gets the recognition? Lesser players have made all-star teams before, it doesnt make them any better than West. If you want to continue your stance so be it, but its not whats important in the long run to anyone that matters.



Paul run's and is most responsible for that team. If it fail's its on Paul, If it succeeds...same thing. So Paul's success made West an all-star. transitive property :)....and I know yu hate absolutes like that, but thats how i see it. the leader of teh team IS most responsible. it comes with the job.

That is why your view point on players is flawed, the teams success made West an all-star in the literal sense. But his play is what deemed him worthy enough to be selected. Whether or not the team does as well without CP3 is irrelevant in a matter discussing a players individual game.


6- Nobody, not even Jordan wins by themselves on a regular basis. Jordan getting Kerr and Pip open is the same as Paul getting West open. It isnt like Paul cant drop 30 on a team with ease. the man scores at will, but he chooses his shots.

I never meant to say he won by himself I would think thats common knowledge...?


Anyway, I guess we can agree to disagree. Sound even??? but for the record, what is your take on paul? Do you find it unearthly to believe that he is now, or could be better than lebron? and what does your actual ranking of top 4 perimeter players look like in order? Off topic but im curious because nobody really wants to accept that Paul just might be better than Lebron.
CP3 cant impact the game defensively the way Bron can so any matter of him surpassing LeBron would involve him reaching a whole new level offensively. Its just not possible to be that good but hes already had a top3 season from any PG ever but thats only 1 season.

arlubas
11-15-2008, 09:19 AM
West without CP3 = shite

Oh really? How about this then?

CP3 without West = 1st round exit