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View Full Version : Great Players Drop Off When Paired With Better Players



mrblisterdundee
11-08-2008, 06:02 PM
I've noticed that the performance of great players often drops off when they are paired with even better players. This even happens when those great players are in a position to still put up the same (or better) numbers. I can't name them all, but I will include a few examples.
When Pau Gasol came to the Lakers, he was the only offensive post presence, but his numbers went down. He didn't have any more scoring help in the post than in Memphis. I can understand his rebound numbers lowering because of Odom, but not his scoring.
Mo Williams was more explosive and put up better numbers in Milwaukee. Playing next to LeBron James, he has turned into another pathetic Cleveland role player. Maybe it's just because he's new, but I think he's settling in to the pattern I speak of.

laker1000
11-08-2008, 06:54 PM
I've noticed that the performance of great players often drops off when they are paired with even better players. This even happens when those great players are in a position to still put up the same (or better) numbers. I can't name them all, but I will include a few examples.
When Pau Gasol came to the Lakers, he was the only offensive post presence, but his numbers went down. He didn't have any more scoring help in the post than in Memphis. I can understand his rebound numbers lowering because of Odom, but not his scoring.
Mo Williams was more explosive and put up better numbers in Milwaukee. Playing next to LeBron James, he has turned into another pathetic Cleveland role player. Maybe it's just because he's new, but I think he's settling in to the pattern I speak of.

I agree Pau's numbers went down but that is because he didn't get as many touches then in Memphis, he was the #1 option in Memphis but not in L.A., because we have someone named Kobe Bryant.

DerekRE_3
11-08-2008, 07:03 PM
And that is why you look more at efficiency instead of just the hard stats. Now if Gasol's field goal percentage takes a hit...then that's all on him.

lakers4sho
11-08-2008, 07:07 PM
I've noticed that the performance of great players often drops off when they are paired with even better players. This even happens when those great players are in a position to still put up the same (or better) numbers. I can't name them all, but I will include a few examples.
When Pau Gasol came to the Lakers, he was the only offensive post presence, but his numbers went down. He didn't have any more scoring help in the post than in Memphis. I can understand his rebound numbers lowering because of Odom, but not his scoring.
Mo Williams was more explosive and put up better numbers in Milwaukee. Playing next to LeBron James, he has turned into another pathetic Cleveland role player. Maybe it's just because he's new, but I think he's settling in to the pattern I speak of.

I guess you haven't heard of Kobe Bryant.

No ****, you're numbers are gonna go down if you're paired with a better player. That's common sense.

Iodine
11-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Horrible thread

So your telling me when an overated player goes from a top option on a ****** team to a 2nd or 3rd option on an good/great team they might not score as much?

AMAMZING

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
11-08-2008, 07:13 PM
I like how 6 games in and Mo Williams is a pathetic role player.. Do you watch much basketball? He scored 21 points last night. He has scored in double digits every night, and the Cavaliers offense is so much better with him running the point.

Sport
11-08-2008, 07:31 PM
Yeah this thread is dumb.

Obviously when your paired with someon by the likes of KB, your numbers are gonna go down.

That doesnt mean hes any less of a player, it just means that memphis didnt have a go to guy.

_Sn1P3r_
11-08-2008, 08:02 PM
Agreed. ^ You can't do anything about your stats going down when there is a better option in the team you're headed.

bagwell368
11-08-2008, 09:47 PM
Try that theory with a stacked team like the 85-86 Celts

Bird
McHale
Parrish
DJ
Ainge
Wedman
Walton
Sichting

Take out say Parrish & Ainge - and everybody else does better, but the team does worse. Isolating individual performance in a team game is difficult, be sure of what tools you are working with, and to question assumptions - esp if they lead to overly simplistic answers.

SAVAGE CLAW
11-08-2008, 11:10 PM
Last game: pau did only tke 9 shots, kobe took three times more shot.

Any wonder his nmbers go down?.

It only happens if you are paired with a "sacred cow" that is a Ball hogh too.

CHRISDODGERS
11-08-2008, 11:15 PM
Last game: pau did only tke 9 shots, kobe took three times more shot.

Any wonder his nmbers go down?.

It only happens if you are paired with a "sacred cow" that is a Ball hogh too.

Kobe?? a ball hog??? gimme a break....

SAVAGE CLAW
11-08-2008, 11:18 PM
nahhhh he is not, he does not take 75% of the shots in the third and fourth qarters.

Damm Fanboys.....

dre1990
11-08-2008, 11:20 PM
Maybe they have to pass more.........

SAVAGE CLAW
11-08-2008, 11:22 PM
^ true.

SAVAGE CLAW
11-08-2008, 11:24 PM
Kobe?? a ball hog??? gimme a break....
Oh and by the way.... where did i say Sacred Cows LIKE KOBE ?

I didnt mention anyone, specially because i could think in at least a docen player who fill the bill.

Tha fact you inmediately tought on him is the best proof he IS one.:D

CHRISDODGERS
11-08-2008, 11:28 PM
nahhhh he is not, he does not take 75% of the shots in the third and fourth qarters.

Damm Fanboys.....

dude.... the reason he takes 75% of the shot in the third and fourth quarters is because he makes 50% of those shots!!!

he's kobe ****ing bryant!!!

In the four games so far... I've never seen Kobe pass up so many shots...

SAVAGE CLAW
11-08-2008, 11:37 PM
more like 40% of them.

Funny fact? Big men usually do like 55% of their shots, they have TWO top 20 Big Men ......... See?

CHRISDODGERS
11-08-2008, 11:41 PM
more like 40% of them.

Funny fact? Big men usually do like 55% of their shots, they have TWO top 20 Big Men ......... See?

Are you trying to convince me that Kobe is a ball hog?? cause it's not gonna happen...

Maybe after shaq and before pau but definatly not now....

SAVAGE CLAW
11-08-2008, 11:50 PM
^Did you see the same finals that i did? go check the numbers.......

he will NEVER win a ring until he scores less than 25 and the second option on his team scores at least 20 a game or he scores less than 25 and the second and third option score like 17-18 .

You can Quote me on that

KobeIs
11-09-2008, 02:34 AM
And that is why you look more at efficiency instead of just the hard stats. Now if Gasol's field goal percentage takes a hit...then that's all on him.

^ :clap: That's the main reason. If a guys average drops by a point or two then its only normal.

They were probably #1 options in their own team but when paired with someone better, they will just take the back seat to them.

lakers4sho
11-09-2008, 02:40 AM
Last game: pau did only tke 9 shots, kobe took three times more shot.

Any wonder his nmbers go down?.

It only happens if you are paired with a "sacred cow" that is a Ball hogh too.

Then first tell your boy Pau Gasol to stop choking before he gets "touches" in the fourth...

I remember him choking multiple times, especially against Russia during the European Championship, am I right??

SAVAGE CLAW
11-09-2008, 02:49 AM
He got Fouled, repeatedly during the whole match, referees called nothing, he was out of his head at that moment.

Chronz
11-09-2008, 03:02 AM
Mo has struggled but its not because hes not getting enough touches. Hes actually been hogging the ball more than ever, his shot is just off.. or maybe the theory of LeBron making his teammates worse is true.

Pau actually had the best year of his career alongside Kobe, well he only played 27 games so its not THE BEST hes ever played but he played much better in LA.

Overall if a players numbers decline its either a result of diminished usage (without an increase in efficiency), injuries, altered role, or the guy is simply not as good as he used to be. Its not hard to figure out which one but I wouldnt say great players drop off when paired with better ones.

LAKERS 24/7
11-09-2008, 03:24 AM
Savage Claw, I have no respect for you if you think Kobe has been a ball hog this season. We ****ing understand that you love Pau Gasol, but that doesn't give you a reason to bring everyone else down just to try and bring him up. Mature a little

JJ81
11-09-2008, 03:26 AM
I agree Pau's numbers went down but that is because he didn't get as many touches then in Memphis, he was the #1 option in Memphis but not in L.A., because we have someone named Kobe Bryant.

Exactly. It doesn't mean he's "dropped off" or gotten worse at all.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 03:52 AM
Deppendes of who teh better player is.

For Example, Steve Nash is a better player than Eddie Curry.

I guarantee you that if Curry was traded to the Suns his numbers would go Up.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 04:13 AM
Basically it deppends if you are gathering with the Team First, Humble, Low profile unselfish guys: Duncan, Nash, Pau, Roy (well the jury is out now, hes reacting badn to Rudy) .

Or if you are gatherinc with the Shoot Absorving, Bloodthirsty of Personal Glory Kind: IVerson, Melo, Kobe, Arenas, Shaq, Gay.....

Lakersfan2483
11-09-2008, 04:29 AM
^Did you see the same finals that i did? go check the numbers.......

he will NEVER win a ring until he scores less than 25 and the second option on his team scores at least 20 a game or he scores less than 25 and the second and third option score like 17-18 .

You can Quote me on that

Huh??? He's won 3 rings, so I think he knows how to win a title. If he's the main option on the team, he's going to get the majority of the shots, that's common sense.

Lakersfan2483
11-09-2008, 04:32 AM
Gasol looks great with the lakers, he's flourishing in his new role and had the most success in his career last season. It's not about his stats, he's been efficient since he joined LA, and the lakers have been winning with him.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 04:35 AM
if stats are not important, and Pau has to accept to gow down from 20 a game to ...12? a game and odom has to accept to go down from 18 to 10 ? then WHY does koeb not accept to go down from 27-30 to 18-19?

JJ81
11-09-2008, 04:43 AM
if stats are not important, and Pau has to accept to gow down from 20 a game to ...12? a game and odom has to accept to go down from 18 to 10 ? then WHY does koeb not accept to go down from 27-30 to 18-19?

Because he's the #1 option. What's hard to understand about that? This thread is pretty pointless tbh.

lakers4sho
11-09-2008, 04:46 AM
Basically it deppends if you are gathering with the Team First, Humble, Low profile unselfish guys: Duncan, Nash, Pau, Roy (well the jury is out now, hes reacting badn to Rudy) .

Or if you are gatherinc with the Shoot Absorving, Bloodthirsty of Personal Glory Kind: IVerson, Melo, Kobe, Arenas, Shaq, Gay.....

Roy is NOT a humble player...come on Crooner you know better than that.

Lakersfan2483
11-09-2008, 05:04 AM
if stats are not important, and Pau has to accept to gow down from 20 a game to ...12? a game and odom has to accept to go down from 18 to 10 ? then WHY does koeb not accept to go down from 27-30 to 18-19?

Odom didn't average 18 last season, and he's coming off the bench this year, not sure what your point is here. Everyone is sacrificing for the team, including Kobe, his scoring is down as well. The bottomline is LA is winning and everyone is happy. Pau's numbers will go up as the season progresses, he's been hitting the boards. LA has a lot of scoring options and so everyone's numbers will be down, including Kobe's.

superkegger
11-09-2008, 10:51 AM
How you think Kobe is not sacrificing for the team is beyond me.

Kobes shots per game over the last 4 years
05-06 27.2
06-07 22.8
07-08 20.6
08-09 18.5

Over that same time his mpg have also gone down each year.
05-06 41:00
06-07 40:47
07-08 38:53
08-09 33:12

So if you don't think Kobe is playing for the team, you're clearly not watching or paying attention to the game. Don't speak on what you don't know. Everyone on the Lakers is sacrificing for the sake of the team and for winning. Everyone.

JayW_1023
11-09-2008, 12:32 PM
On most other teams Manu would average 25, 6 and 6 as the first option.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 12:39 PM
^ Yuo answered yourself, if he plays less minutes then the number of shots per minute has stayed CONSTANT.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Oh and First option does not mean you have to be a Mofo and take all shots.

You know? Pippen used to score in 20s , Dumars used to Score in 20s, Magic scored in 20s when kareem was still the man, then Worhty scored in 20s ( i nfact sometimes he lead the lakers in scoring even if Magic was the LEADER), Pierce and garnett, botth in 20s, in the finals allen scored in 20s.... etc etc etc.

There is something REALLY wrong about kobe in this aspect.

Hey im A Laker fan,I want kobe to succed, win 4 more ring and shut up forever ****ing MJ monks but that does not blind me to some truths about him.

$ NyC $
11-09-2008, 12:46 PM
Because he's the #1 option. What's hard to understand about that? This thread is pretty pointless tbh.

EXACTLY.

I'm not a Laker fan and i see that if Kobe averages 18 ppg and Odom and Gasol average like 12 ppg and 16 ppg the definition of that my friend issss


=

A PRETTY SHIZZY TEAM.

Your #1 option = takes most shots, averages most ppg
YOUR #2 OPTION = takes few less shots, averages 2nd most ppg.


WTF IS SO HARD 2 COMPREHEND?!?

if the best player on the Lakers averaged 18 ppg...they would b worse than my Knicks.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 01:12 PM
^It was an example, the logic thing woudl be that kobe did likke 25 Pau 20 Bynum 15, and then fisher, odom and starting sf (radman, ariza?) 10 to 12.


but this wont happen EVER if kobe does ALL The shooting in teh third and fourth quarter.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 01:13 PM
aND BY THE WAY IF YUOR FISRT PLAYER SCORES 18 THE SECOND SCORES 17 THE THIRD 17 AND THE FOURTH 15 YUO ARE......THE 04 DETROIT PISTONS.....IS THAT SUCH A BAD THING?

lakers4sho
11-09-2008, 01:21 PM
Oh and First option does not mean you have to be a Mofo and take all shots.

You know? Pippen used to score in 20s , Dumars used to Score in 20s, Magic scored in 20s when kareem was still the man, then Worhty scored in 20s ( i nfact sometimes he lead the lakers in scoring even if Magic was the LEADER), Pierce and garnett, botth in 20s, in the finals allen scored in 20s.... etc etc etc.

There is something REALLY wrong about kobe in this aspect.

Hey im A Laker fan,I want kobe to succed, win 4 more ring and shut up forever ****ing MJ monks but that does not blind me to some truths about him.

Magic wasn't really much of a volume scorer, and Kareem was on the decline so yeah it would be make sense if Worthy was their main scorer.


^It was an example, the logic thing woudl be that kobe did likke 25 Pau 20 Bynum 15, and then fisher, odom and starting sf (radman, ariza?) 10 to 12.


but this wont happen EVER if kobe does ALL The shooting in teh third and fourth quarter.

Kobe's scoring numbers will drop, trust me on that. But he has to take those shots in the third, and especially the fourth, since he has proven that he can make those. He doesn't score if he doesn't need to (ie. Against the Clippers when they were being blown out). Kobe only scores when it is needed.

1) In the third against Portland, where the Blazers were making a run and nobody on the Lakers is making a damn shot
2) Against the Nuggets in the 4th where it is clutch time and Kobe had to score for the Lakers to separate themselves from the Nuggz, and Pau was having a bad scoring night.

In those cases you couldn't blame Kobe for scoring, and you couldn't bag on him either, because he was able to make those shots.

Hellcrooner
11-09-2008, 01:31 PM
I watched the game against Blazers, how can anybody score if KObe takes up the ball and waits until he can make a shot or go inside for the layupp??????

Oh and about Roy, i watched hism this last too years, and he was Low profile, team oriented and when playing the point he distributed the ball, so yes i had him in the Good HUmble Stars List.

But man since Rudy is on town and specially since Poeple in the rose garden stands sing Rudy rudy rudy!!! he just takes the ball and drives into the lane or lloks for shots, he does not even llok for Aldrige ( who by the way, in my opionion is developing QUICK and should be the first option) or Outlow, he is just caring for scoring.

Yes he almost made the team lose to houston, and he almost made the team lose to San antonio ( they ahd a solid lead, Rudy scored 5 and 8 rebounds in the first half, then roy started the ballhog show and Rudy didnt get A SINGLE pass in the WHOLE second half while they lead was disminishing by the minute).

JordansBulls
11-09-2008, 03:00 PM
Well dominant big men scoring shouldn't decrease as much as guards do.

mrblisterdundee
11-09-2008, 03:48 PM
I guess you haven't heard of Kobe Bryant.

No ****, you're numbers are gonna go down if you're paired with a better player. That's common sense.

I was talking about Pau as an offensive post presence, not as an overall scorer. When he came to LA, he was the only offensive post presence. Bynum was out, and Odom never scored that much. Kobe Bryant is more of a jumpshooter than a post presence. While in Memphis, Pau had more offensive post help from Rudy Gay, but still had better numbers. He also had decent back court help from Mike Miller. Looking at that help and the fact that he was the only offensive post presence when he came over to the Lakers, his numbers should have at least stayed the same. Shaq's numbers were much higher as the primary offensive post presence. Pau fell off coming to the Lakers, even when he bore the load of post scoring.

Lakersfan2483
11-09-2008, 06:43 PM
I was talking about Pau as an offensive post presence, not as an overall scorer. When he came to LA, he was the only offensive post presence. Bynum was out, and Odom never scored that much. Kobe Bryant is more of a jumpshooter than a post presence. While in Memphis, Pau had more offensive post help from Rudy Gay, but still had better numbers. He also had decent back court help from Mike Miller. Looking at that help and the fact that he was the only offensive post presence when he came over to the Lakers, his numbers should have at least stayed the same. Shaq's numbers were much higher as the primary offensive post presence. Pau fell off coming to the Lakers, even when he bore the load of post scoring.

Pau's numbers have been down because he has a lot more talent in LA, but his play has not fallen off. His rebounding, shot blocking and fg% are still good. Overall, the team's success is the most important, that is what you have to look at. LA went to the finals last season and have not lost this year, I would say Gasol has played a key role in helping us achieve that type of success. He is still playing at an extremely high level, his role is different in LA.

Lakersfan2483
11-09-2008, 06:48 PM
I watched the game against Blazers, how can anybody score if KObe takes up the ball and waits until he can make a shot or go inside for the layupp??????

Oh and about Roy, i watched hism this last too years, and he was Low profile, team oriented and when playing the point he distributed the ball, so yes i had him in the Good HUmble Stars List.

But man since Rudy is on town and specially since Poeple in the rose garden stands sing Rudy rudy rudy!!! he just takes the ball and drives into the lane or lloks for shots, he does not even llok for Aldrige ( who by the way, in my opionion is developing QUICK and should be the first option) or Outlow, he is just caring for scoring.

Yes he almost made the team lose to houston, and he almost made the team lose to San antonio ( they ahd a solid lead, Rudy scored 5 and 8 rebounds in the first half, then roy started the ballhog show and Rudy didnt get A SINGLE pass in the WHOLE second half while they lead was disminishing by the minute).

Let me ask you an honest question, who do you want shooting the ball and making the plays in the 4th quarter, your no. 1 guy or your 2nd and 3rd guy?? You keep mentioning 2nd and 3rd option players, when the game is on the line, your superstar takes over, period!! The superstar is the guy you want to have the ball, I don't understand why you don't seem to understand this. You keep mentioning Rudy not getting the ball, he's a role player. B. Roy is their main guy, last time I checked, he hit the game winner in overtime. Case closed.

SAVAGE CLAW
11-09-2008, 09:20 PM
^Case Closed? So i guess Michael Jordan should have agreed to be the second Man to Orlando Woolridge who was the resident Star at Chicago when he Arrived.

And if you think Rudy is just a role player , or that he should be just a role player you are reaaallly wrong, maybe because of Chauvinist Bias.

Ive Watched that game too and Roys Attitude was cristal Clear and it Sucked.

lakers4sho
11-09-2008, 09:43 PM
I was talking about Pau as an offensive post presence, not as an overall scorer. When he came to LA, he was the only offensive post presence. Bynum was out, and Odom never scored that much. Kobe Bryant is more of a jumpshooter than a post presence. While in Memphis, Pau had more offensive post help from Rudy Gay, but still had better numbers. He also had decent back court help from Mike Miller. Looking at that help and the fact that he was the only offensive post presence when he came over to the Lakers, his numbers should have at least stayed the same. Shaq's numbers were much higher as the primary offensive post presence. Pau fell off coming to the Lakers, even when he bore the load of post scoring.

It doesn't matter whether it is a post presence or a jumpshooter. If you're paired up with an offensive superstar, you're numbers are going down, that's a fact.

Even if Pau was paired up with Stoudemire, or LeBron, his numbers would've gone down as well.


^Case Closed? So i guess Michael Jordan should have agreed to be the second Man to Orlando Woolridge who was the resident Star at Chicago when he Arrived.

And if you think Rudy is just a role player , or that he should be just a role player you are reaaallly wrong, maybe because of Chauvinist Bias.

Ive Watched that game too and Roys Attitude was cristal Clear and it Sucked.

Well the difference between Kobe and Roy is that Roy only made a couple of lucky shots towards the end. Before that he missed ALL of his shots.

Kobe on the other hand consistently made shots when they needed him to. And he doesn't force anything stupid.

SAVAGE CLAW
11-09-2008, 09:55 PM
In my Opinion, Basket is a Team sport, and if you are on a good team it means all of your palyers are good, so in the fourth quarter you should look for the OPEN man no matter if he is the best player or the fifth best.

I really hate "Star System", you shoudl just pass the ball to the open man or to the player that is having a hot hand night.

lakers4sho
11-09-2008, 10:00 PM
Well, that's how the NBA works, you gotta live with it.

I just hope Rudy (or any other international player) doesn't get a bad image of the league. I really want him to stay in the NBA.

Hellcrooner
11-10-2008, 03:58 AM
see? today there was a logical share of the ball, result ? kobe 23, pau 20 lakers WON.