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NBACavsFan69
11-06-2008, 06:27 PM
I have been a Cavs fan since I can remember (about 20+ years), and I have seen a lot of Cavs players all my life. To me, LeBron James seems overrated. He has no jumpshot (0% from three), and he is very bad in the fundamentals of the game...yet we're going to proclaim him to be better than MJ, the same person who made "The Shot" against us, or even than Kobe (whom I really hate with a passion). I just don't see what is very special about LeBron, other than his athleticism which he relies on almost everytime to get his points. Where is his defense? Where is the fundamentals? Where is the Jumpshot? Where is the post up game?

I need to see him become a great all around player before even considering him to be one of the top players of all time.

What do you guys think? And please, let's talk like real basketball fans. No bias.

Raidaz4Life
11-06-2008, 07:08 PM
yes I think he is for that very reason... a lot of people are willing to put him ahead of MJ and Kobe when like you said he has a horrible jump shot and fundamentals.... however he is the second best in the game right now and could easily pass both Kobe and Jordan in the future

NBACavsFan69
11-06-2008, 07:19 PM
How can you say easily though? He has still to work on ALOT of stuff. You just don't develop a post game, a jumpshot, and defense all at once! From the way I'm seeing it so far this seaon, LeBron hasn't improved on his weaknesses from last season.

LeBron needs to work on his defense. Letting Pierce score 40+ points in a crucial game 7 of the playoffs is totally unacceptable. I don't care if he scores 40 as well. If he worked on defending Pierce instead of keeping up with him in terms of point total, the Cavs might've won the game, and considering that their next opponent is a weakened Pistons, they could've reached the Finals again!

Worst of all, he's still a choker. He missed crucial freethrows 1st game of the season against BOS that could've easily tied the game for them. He also shot a highly contested three when they were only down by 5 and thee were still around 3-4 minutes remaining.

I'm worried about the Cavs. They're building around LeBron with all they can, but the summer of 2010 will come by really fast, and BOOM! He's gone. He mentioned a lot of times that he wants to be a billionaire and will easily go to a bigger market team (NYK or to his homie Jay-Z) with a lucrative contract.

Zydrunas and Ben Wallace are on the last years of their careers. By the time 2010 comes around, those two are either gone (I'm pretty sure Ben Wallace will be gone), and Zydrunas wouldn't be as productive as he is right now.

CleveHomer
11-06-2008, 07:36 PM
I want to preface all of this by saying that it is very hard to compare Lebron to players like Kobe and MJ. They are completely different players. Kobe and MJ are shooting guards, lebron is a point forward in a power forward's body. As of right now though, you can't put any player in the same sentence as Jordan because of those 6 rings. I dont like him but it's the truth.

Lebron is not overrated!

Yes he has to work on his jumper, but so did MJ when he came in the league. I think Lebron runs into trouble when he turns into a jump shooter and thats something he has to realize.

If you watch the games you know that just like every other "Superstar" (prolific scorer) they do not guard the other teams "Superstar during the game, which I completely agree with. But when it comes to crunch, that player should step up and Lebron has done that time and again on the defensive end.

Lebron is one of the greatest all-around players to ever play.

47% FG
27.3 PPG
6.9 Rbd
6.6 Assists

He has developed into a finisher, a leader, and a good defender. People say Kobe this and Kobe that, Lebron beats him in everything. I do not know how anyone can say he is overrated. Five games in, his stats are not where they were last year, but if he had not set the bar so high and this was any other player, his numbers (25-8-8) would be jaw dropping.

Remember he is 23 and his numbers dwarf Kobe's and exceed MJ's at this point in their careers if you really want to compare.

Also Lebron knows what legacy is and he knows that to be a legend, Bird, Jordan, Magic, you have to play for one team and rise them to the top. (MJ in Washington does not count) Lets hope he does not Jim Thome or Carlos Boozer us.

jetsfan28
11-06-2008, 07:39 PM
Why does he need a jumper if he gets points without it? Why does he need a post up game if he gets points without it and he's a SF who doesn't really need a post game? The guy produces as much as any other player in the league, and for that reason, he's not overrated.

CleveHomer
11-06-2008, 07:44 PM
Good Job jetsfan28!

ARMIN12NBA
11-06-2008, 08:17 PM
Why does he need a jumper if he gets points without it? Why does he need a post up game if he gets points without it and he's a SF who doesn't really need a post game? The guy produces as much as any other player in the league, and for that reason, he's not overrated.

What is going to happen when he loses that athleticism? He is going to be exposed for the true player he is, which is what Cavsfan is saying.

jetsfan28
11-06-2008, 09:51 PM
What is going to happen when he loses that athleticism? He is going to be exposed for the true player he is, which is what Cavsfan is saying.

That's not happening any time soon. Remember, he came into the league at around 19. He can play with all that strength and athleticism for a good 14 years. Maybe not quite as explosive, but still enough strength and athleticism, and he'll learn a few things along the way. So maybe after the 13 or 14 years where he is completely dominant, he'll be worse, but that's basically a career's length, barring major injury, that athleticism isn't disappearing any time soon.

GspLAL
11-06-2008, 10:26 PM
Why does he need a jumper if he gets points without it? Why does he need a post up game if he gets points without it and he's a SF who doesn't really need a post game? The guy produces as much as any other player in the league, and for that reason, he's not overrated.

Because when he grows older, 30+ he's not gonna be able to overpower everyone like he does now, he will lose a step in his quickness, just like anyone else, even Kobe. Kobe doesnt dunk on people like he used to back in the 3-peat days, will be the same with Lebron.

With that said, I dont think hes overrated right now because he still scores. But eventually, itll wear down if he doesnt work on his shot.

Sbank
11-07-2008, 12:19 AM
LeBron not overrated. He been developing other parts of his game at certain times. He also doing more things then just playing in the NBA. He was on the team captains on the USA basketball team. I think LeBron is working consistently on his game to make him better. I don't think we seen the results right now but we see them. He constantly trying to make himself better then he is right now.

ARMIN12NBA
11-07-2008, 12:37 AM
LeBron not overrated. He been developing other parts of his game at certain times. He also doing more things then just playing in the NBA. He was on the team captains on the USA basketball team. I think LeBron is working consistently on his game to make him better. I don't think we seen the results right now but we see them. He constantly trying to make himself better then he is right now.

Which parts though? He is atrocious for three-point land this year. 0 for 13. He is atrocious from outside the paint. 7 for 42. That is downright awful. Yet ESPN wants us to believe he is the best...ugh. Not to mention his defensive deficiencies. If he develops those other parts of his game then he'll be great...until then though and there is still an IF.

Sbank
11-07-2008, 12:48 AM
From one thing after the first game against the Celtics LeBron has been shooting 78% at the FT line.

BoltLakerPadre
11-07-2008, 03:30 AM
I voted in the poll and said perfectly rated, but it really depends on who is rating him. When you call him a superman, and say he can carry a team to a championship by himself, then he's overrated. When you compare him to MJ and Kobe, he's overrated. He's still young, you can say he has the potential to be one of the best ever, but let him win at least one ring before you crown the man.

Personally, I think he's a beast, and if the rumors are true, that he'd like to play in LA, I hope to god we can find a way to make that happen (even though I know it's impossible). But still, taking his team to the finals, that was against a terrible Eastern Conference, where his only challenge was Detroit, who he did dominate.

Callenx5
11-07-2008, 04:22 PM
R U crazy Lebron is 23 yrs. old, led the cavs to a conference championship. Its only the beginning relax, lebron is about to hold all of the cavs records. Shut down Kobe on several occassions, and say what you want 2 say about Lebron, but he gets the job DONE!!!!!!!

bigalow80
11-07-2008, 04:55 PM
WOW! this is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read...Lebron overrated? really? are we having this conversation? name me another player in the game right now(other than Kobe) who can single handely dominate a game...let's just start the list: KG (couldn't get it done in MN), Pierce (couldn't do it without KG and allen), Iverson (for one year, 8 years ago), Dwight Howard (not yet, maybe in 3 years), Chris Bosh (how have they done in the playoffs?), Vince Carter (always had JK or was just a show in toronto), DIrk (how have they done in teh playoffs lately?) Wade (he had shaq) Chris Paul (ok, we might have someone here) Tim DUncan (maybe, but not really)...and the list goes on. he has carried the cavs to the playoffs and into the Finals with zero help.
no he doesnt have the greatest jump shot or 3 point % neither did jordan or Kobe (who by the way has been in the league for 10 years now and was a terrible defender is first 5 years) when they first came into the league. His stats dominate everyone at this point in their careers. His true position is POWER FORWARD because he is 6'9"!! His game is too drive and score. what makes him dangerous is when he gets hot he can make all the other shots GUARDS can make and handle the ball LIKE A GUARD. His defense is very good, he just doesn't play any until he has too (this might be his biggest fault) but he can shut down people when he doesn't have to score 40 a night. look at what he did in the olympics and if anyone says they aren't top ranked players please see 2 previous "dream teams" finishes. as he gets older his "athleticism" will go...he's twenty-freaking-three! he has at least 8 years of ridiculous athleticism and by then his game maybe refined as well if not better than jordans. who by the way later on in his career became the "great" defender because he needed to be. i think people are trying to make a case for "if" he leaves then the cavs will be ok...if LeBron leaves the cavs will fall flat on their faces. for all you "doubters" just watch a game. every team in the league puts their best defender on him and he STILL DOMINATES.

sp1derm00
11-07-2008, 06:53 PM
WOW! this is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read...Lebron overrated? really? are we having this conversation? name me another player in the game right now(other than Kobe) who can single handely dominate a game...let's just start the list: KG (couldn't get it done in MN), Pierce (couldn't do it without KG and allen), Iverson (for one year, 8 years ago), Dwight Howard (not yet, maybe in 3 years), Chris Bosh (how have they done in the playoffs?), Vince Carter (always had JK or was just a show in toronto), DIrk (how have they done in teh playoffs lately?) Wade (he had shaq) Chris Paul (ok, we might have someone here) Tim DUncan (maybe, but not really)...and the list goes on. he has carried the cavs to the playoffs and into the Finals with zero help.
no he doesnt have the greatest jump shot or 3 point % neither did jordan or Kobe (who by the way has been in the league for 10 years now and was a terrible defender is first 5 years) when they first came into the league. His stats dominate everyone at this point in their careers. His true position is POWER FORWARD because he is 6'9"!! His game is too drive and score. what makes him dangerous is when he gets hot he can make all the other shots GUARDS can make and handle the ball LIKE A GUARD. His defense is very good, he just doesn't play any until he has too (this might be his biggest fault) but he can shut down people when he doesn't have to score 40 a night. look at what he did in the olympics and if anyone says they aren't top ranked players please see 2 previous "dream teams" finishes. as he gets older his "athleticism" will go...he's twenty-freaking-three! he has at least 8 years of ridiculous athleticism and by then his game maybe refined as well if not better than jordans. who by the way later on in his career became the "great" defender because he needed to be. i think people are trying to make a case for "if" he leaves then the cavs will be ok...if LeBron leaves the cavs will fall flat on their faces. for all you "doubters" just watch a game. every team in the league puts their best defender on him and he STILL DOMINATES.

1999-2000 All-NBA Second Team; NBA All-Defensive First Team; NBA All-Interview Second Team

It took 4 years for Kobe to be on the NBA All-Defensive First Team...

Two of those 4 years, he didn't start when he could have.

Mushua
11-07-2008, 07:05 PM
I wouldn't say he's overrated

Mushua
11-07-2008, 07:07 PM
or either perfectly rated

metsbulls1025
11-13-2008, 03:51 AM
I don't know how you can compare him to Jordan. To different styles of basketball. In a sense couldn't you say Kobe is also over rated because he hasn't won since he was with Shaq so he can't carry a team either. You can't do it all by yourselve and even though Lebron is putting up crazy numbers he won't be the guy they talk about in 20 years. It will still be MJ. Just like Marino and Montana. You are not talking about Marino because Mantana had Rice. Get Lebron his Jerry Rice and he could be the greatest.

IndiansFan337
11-13-2008, 01:04 PM
If anything, the guy is underrated. I say that because he still has many people calling him overrated. That in turn makes him underrated, IMO.

You speak of fundamentals that he supposedly does not have. LeBron/Varejao run the pick & roll all of the time together. That's the most basic & fundamental play in the entire sport. He does not have a great jump shot. But show me a 250 lb man that does. He gets by with athleticism.

He is not MJ. He doesn't need to be. He is LBJ. There's no point in comparing the two. MJ played at a different time, with different teammates, against different opponents. There was no one in the NBA as athletic as LeBron James at that point in time. With that being said, there is no one with the combination of athleticism, jumper, and motivation as MJ at this point in time. Therefore, stop comparing the two in that aspect.

LeBron is the best player of his era. MJ was the best player of his. There is obviously no need to compare their careers, at this point.

celticfan
11-13-2008, 03:35 PM
He is good but need work on the jumpshot. Needs to work on his form. I could work with him...

ee
11-13-2008, 04:00 PM
damn 7 voted overated in cavs forum for LBJ, what a shock.....You guys hate him that bad? No other superstar can take a mediocre team as far as he did...You guys should be thankful for, without Lebron, your team would be bottom feeders for the last 3 seasons.....Kobe couldn't get past the first round without another all star on his side.....You surround LBJ with a bunch of role players and he takes the celtics to 7 games, take you to the finals and what he gets is that he's overated.....I don't know, the last 2 years, only teams who beat the cavs were the eventual champions and when you look at the roster, the next big star is an aging ben wallace and BigZ.....

Is he overated? hell no, he's not an all around player because he's not a lock down defender and not a crisp shooter???:rolleyes: He gives you guys so much more than than any other superstar can do....No one man in this league can do as much as Lebron can.....Overated:rolleyes:

MAC8004
11-13-2008, 11:44 PM
Look, I love the NBA, and I love everything that LeBron has done for the league. To say that he is Michael Jordan or even Kobe Bryant is preposterous! No jumper, solid defense and most important he's a douche. I'm sorry Cleveland fans but I simply don't like the guy; how can I? The "King" totally stole Kevin Garnett's pre-game ritual and Michael Jordan's laugh, tongue-stickout and shoulder shrug every single time he does anything well. He's a poser and I can't stand him! Unless you're a Cavs fan you'll learn to eventually dislike the guy. :smoking:

MAC8004
11-14-2008, 12:03 AM
Look, I love the NBA, and I love everything that LeBron has done for the league. To say that he is Michael Jordan or even Kobe Bryant is preposterous! No jumper, solid defense and most important he's a douche. I'm sorry Cleveland fans but I simply don't like the guy; how can I? The "King" totally stole Kevin Garnett's pre-game ritual and Michael Jordan's laugh, tongue-stickout and shoulder shrug every single time he does anything well. He's a poser and I can't stand him! Unless you're a Cavs fan you'll learn to eventually dislike the guy. :smoking:

JordansBulls
11-14-2008, 12:09 AM
Depends on what you mean? If you are talking about a top 3 player in the league now then no he is not overrated. If you are talking a top 25 player all time then yes he is.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
11-17-2008, 08:36 AM
I don't see how he is overrated..

J-Relo
11-17-2008, 11:53 AM
How can you call Lebron overrated as he is one of the best, even if you consider him not being in Top 3 now then you underrate him, so no -he isn't overrated

Big R
11-17-2008, 01:25 PM
only when they try to compare him to jordan, he still has alot of things to work on, jumpshot,3 point shooting,free throw shooting and defense but even then he will never be as great as jordan

Zefflin
11-17-2008, 07:04 PM
No other superstar can take a mediocre team as far as he did...Kobe couldn't get past the first round without another all star on his side.....

Haha jesus you're clueless. Kobe brought arguably the worst most putrid team ever in NBA history to the playoffs and took the Suns in their fastbreak hayday to 7 games...twice!

Smush Parker, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Deveon George, Kwame ****ing Brown!

And most of them started!

Also all while in the western conference which has won every title for the last decade cept like 3 times...

I'm thankful Lebron can do a little damage in the east...hopefully this season he'll get over 50 wins...

ARMIN12NBA
11-17-2008, 07:16 PM
damn 7 voted overated in cavs forum for LBJ, what a shock.....You guys hate him that bad? No other superstar can take a mediocre team as far as he did...You guys should be thankful for, without Lebron, your team would be bottom feeders for the last 3 seasons.....Kobe couldn't get past the first round without another all star on his side.....You surround LBJ with a bunch of role players and he takes the celtics to 7 games, take you to the finals and what he gets is that he's overated.....I don't know, the last 2 years, only teams who beat the cavs were the eventual champions and when you look at the roster, the next big star is an aging ben wallace and BigZ.....

Is he overated? hell no, he's not an all around player because he's not a lock down defender and not a crisp shooter???:rolleyes: He gives you guys so much more than than any other superstar can do....No one man in this league can do as much as Lebron can.....Overated:rolleyes:

Kobe Bryant took a team to 45 wins in the Western Conference and took them to 7 games against the Suns that had players who are either a) out of the league right now (Smush, Profit, Wafer) or b) on the bench (Walton, Cook, Mihm). That was the worst team of all time...And Kobe took them to 45 wins. It still amazes me that he did that since I even thought that team had no chance of winning 30 games (they won 34 games previously and just traded Caron Butler for Cake). Lebron took a very good team to the Finals and had to play the Wiz with no Caron or Gilbert and the lowly Nets. Big whoopdey damn doo. The Lakers nearly beat the Suns!


If anything, the guy is underrated. I say that because he still has many people calling him overrated. That in turn makes him underrated, IMO.

You speak of fundamentals that he supposedly does not have. LeBron/Varejao run the pick & roll all of the time together. That's the most basic & fundamental play in the entire sport. He does not have a great jump shot. But show me a 250 lb man that does. He gets by with athleticism.

He is not MJ. He doesn't need to be. He is LBJ. There's no point in comparing the two. MJ played at a different time, with different teammates, against different opponents. There was no one in the NBA as athletic as LeBron James at that point in time. With that being said, there is no one with the combination of athleticism, jumper, and motivation as MJ at this point in time. Therefore, stop comparing the two in that aspect.

LeBron is the best player of his era. MJ was the best player of his. There is obviously no need to compare their careers, at this point.

You proved my point that he is overrated. Lebron IS compared to MJ. He is overrated right there. Lebron is NOT the best player of his era (since his era hasn't started yet). He is overrated right there. People DO compare him to MJ and Kobe and even say he is better. That is what makes him overrated.

BTW--It is laughable to say he is underrated. He is nowhere near being underrated (people compare him to MJ, remember?). The complete opposite actually. :D

CleveHomer
11-17-2008, 08:45 PM
You are talking about how Lebron is a poser and steals from MJ???!!!!! Watch any interview with Kobe and you will realize how stupid your comment was. Oh and you cant put Kobe in the same sentence as. (putting a period so it is not the same sentence) MJ, nor can you put Lebron there. MJ has 6 rings, i hate him, but he's the best. Lebron has 0 (so far) and Kobe has 0 (without Shaq).

This is a dumb argument. Lebron is not overrated and quit comparing him. He does not want to be Kobe, and he does not want to be MJ. He wants to be LBJ and that is what Cleveland wants!

CleveHomer
11-17-2008, 08:49 PM
Oh and Zefflin, have you heard of PER Stats. Look it up for that Lakers team you talked about then the Cavs of the same year. Cavs were a much worse team without Lebron.

D_Rose1118
11-18-2008, 12:29 AM
WOW! this is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read...Lebron overrated? really? are we having this conversation? name me another player in the game right now(other than Kobe) who can single handely dominate a game...let's just start the list: KG (couldn't get it done in MN), Pierce (couldn't do it without KG and allen), Iverson (for one year, 8 years ago), Dwight Howard (not yet, maybe in 3 years), Chris Bosh (how have they done in the playoffs?), Vince Carter (always had JK or was just a show in toronto), DIrk (how have they done in teh playoffs lately?) Wade (he had shaq) Chris Paul (ok, we might have someone here) Tim DUncan (maybe, but not really)...and the list goes on. he has carried the cavs to the playoffs and into the Finals with zero help.
no he doesnt have the greatest jump shot or 3 point % neither did jordan or Kobe (who by the way has been in the league for 10 years now and was a terrible defender is first 5 years) when they first came into the league. His stats dominate everyone at this point in their careers. His true position is POWER FORWARD because he is 6'9"!! His game is too drive and score. what makes him dangerous is when he gets hot he can make all the other shots GUARDS can make and handle the ball LIKE A GUARD. His defense is very good, he just doesn't play any until he has too (this might be his biggest fault) but he can shut down people when he doesn't have to score 40 a night. look at what he did in the olympics and if anyone says they aren't top ranked players please see 2 previous "dream teams" finishes. as he gets older his "athleticism" will go...he's twenty-freaking-three! he has at least 8 years of ridiculous athleticism and by then his game maybe refined as well if not better than jordans. who by the way later on in his career became the "great" defender because he needed to be. i think people are trying to make a case for "if" he leaves then the cavs will be ok...if LeBron leaves the cavs will fall flat on their faces. for all you "doubters" just watch a game. every team in the league puts their best defender on him and he STILL DOMINATES.






You are completely biased towards the cavs

let me start

first you said name a player who can single handely take over a game

1.chris paul
2.kobe
3.paul pierce(game 7 ecsf who lebron was guarding)
4.d-will
5.dwight howard

there is 5 of the top of my head



next you said jordan could not shoot
so i took where lebron was in his career and then took jordans

Jordan
G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 1.70 5.10 6.90 6.3 2.77 .66 3.01 2.90 33.6

Lebron

G Min M A Pct M A Pct M A Pct Off Def Tot Ast TO Stl Blk PF PPG
75 40:23 10.6 21.9 48.4 1.5 4.8 31.5 7.3 10.3 71.2 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 3.4 1.8 1.1 2.2 30.0




Jordan is obviously better at shooting, 3pt, fg% you name it jordan was better



then you said

"His defense is very good, he just doesn't play any until he has too"

"but he can shut down people when he doesn't have to score 40 a night"

first of all if your first quote is true then is shows how motivated he is

second of all what do you call letting pierce score 40 some points in arguably his most important game of his career


then the most ridiculous thing you said was jordan started playing good defense at the end of his career and not the beginning look at these accomplishments


NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 1987/88(early in his career)

NBA All-Defensive Team: 1987/88, 1988/89, 1989/90, 1990/91, 1991/92, 1992/93, 1995/96, 1996/97, 1997/98 (pretty much spans his whole career)


Lebrons defense accomplishments

None.



so pretty much lebron is no where near jordan offensively or defensively and it dosent look it will happen any time soon

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
11-18-2008, 02:00 AM
You are completely biased towards the cavs

let me start

first you said name a player who can single handely take over a game

1.chris paul
2.kobe
3.paul pierce(game 7 ecsf who lebron was guarding)
4.d-will
5.dwight howard

there is 5 of the top of my head



next you said jordan could not shoot
so i took where lebron was in his career and then took jordans

Jordan
G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 1.70 5.10 6.90 6.3 2.77 .66 3.01 2.90 33.6

Lebron

G Min M A Pct M A Pct M A Pct Off Def Tot Ast TO Stl Blk PF PPG
75 40:23 10.6 21.9 48.4 1.5 4.8 31.5 7.3 10.3 71.2 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 3.4 1.8 1.1 2.2 30.0




Jordan is obviously better at shooting, 3pt, fg% you name it jordan was better



then you said

"His defense is very good, he just doesn't play any until he has too"

"but he can shut down people when he doesn't have to score 40 a night"

first of all if your first quote is true then is shows how motivated he is

second of all what do you call letting pierce score 40 some points in arguably his most important game of his career


then the most ridiculous thing you said was jordan started playing good defense at the end of his career and not the beginning look at these accomplishments


NBA Defensive Player of the Year: 1987/88(early in his career)

NBA All-Defensive Team: 1987/88, 1988/89, 1989/90, 1990/91, 1991/92, 1992/93, 1995/96, 1996/97, 1997/98 (pretty much spans his whole career)


Lebrons defense accomplishments

None.



so pretty much lebron is no where near jordan offensively or defensively and it dosent look it will happen any time soon

I hate when people compare his stats only to Jordan.. It's ignorant to say he is as good as Jordan right now in his career, and for the most part the LeBron is the next Jordan thing has died down a bit.

cmstophe
11-18-2008, 04:58 AM
I voted in the poll and said perfectly rated, but it really depends on who is rating him. When you call him a superman, and say he can carry a team to a championship by himself, then he's overrated. When you compare him to MJ and Kobe, he's overrated. He's still young, you can say he has the potential to be one of the best ever, but let him win at least one ring before you crown the man.

Personally, I think he's a beast, and if the rumors are true, that he'd like to play in LA, I hope to god we can find a way to make that happen (even though I know it's impossible). But still, taking his team to the finals, that was against a terrible Eastern Conference, where his only challenge was Detroit, who he did dominate.

Aren't rings team accomplishments? Why are rings what we judge individuals on?


first you said name a player who can single handely take over a game



Now name a player who can take over an entire playoff series.

I'll be waiting....

Lebron has a bit to go before he is as GOOD of an all around player that Kobe or MJ is/was. But calling him overrated is so foolish it's funny.

Zefflin
11-18-2008, 02:44 PM
Oh and Zefflin, have you heard of PER Stats. Look it up for that Lakers team you talked about then the Cavs of the same year. Cavs were a much worse team without Lebron.

I could care less about PER in this discusion, both teams were absolute **** where the star was forced to carry them.

ee
11-19-2008, 08:51 PM
Lebron took a very good team to the Finals and had to play the Wiz with no Caron or Gilbert and the lowly Nets. Big whoopdey damn doo. The Lakers nearly:clap: beat the Suns!Get your facts straight, the year the Cavs went to the finals was the year the Wizards were at their best with all 3 of their stars, the Nets had their big 3 and a healthy Nenad Krstic, and Pistons, well, they were supposed to beat the Cavs.....I really don't see how taking a team to 7 games in round1 is such an accomplishment, did they upset the Suns? NO....the suns will allow any team to score so they're prone to lose, specially in the playoffs were defense raises up to another level......They still went home in the first round, you can't believe this, you can't believe that but they still went home in the first round, yay.....Kobe's highlight of his career without another all star is taking the suns to 7 games in the first round, whoohoo.....LBJ isn't overated based on the facts you just put out, you're overating Kobe when you think taking the Suns who has no defense to 7 games is an overwhelming accomplishment.....:speechless:

DirtyBuck
11-20-2008, 11:24 AM
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I think the LBJ haters in here are forgetting a key fact in their comparisons to MJ.

JORDAN WENT TO COLLEGE. LEBRON CAME OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL!

MJ had three more years of organized basketball at the college level under a great coach - Dean Smith. So those who are comparing stats based on years in the NBA are forgetting a big component in each of these players basketball development. Jordan should have been better coming into the NBA.

LeBron is doing amazing things THREE YEARS YOUNGER than Jordan was when he did them and without the experience and coaching. And, two nights ago, LBJ became the youngest player in NBA history to reach 11,000 points - displacing Kobe.

Speaking of Kobe, he came out of high school as well. Ok then, let’s compare their stats from the first five years in the league:

Kobe

Regular season
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
1996–97 L.A. Lakers 71 6 15.5 .417 .375 .819 1.9 1.3 .7 .3 7.6
1997–98 L.A. Lakers 79 1 26.0 .428 .341 .794 3.1 2.5 .9 .5 15.4
1998–99 L.A. Lakers 50 50 37.9 .465 .267 .839 5.3 3.8 1.4 1.0 19.9
1999–00 L.A. Lakers 66 62 38.2 .468 .319 .821 6.3 4.9 1.6 .9 22.5
2000–01 L.A. Lakers 68 68 40.9 .464 .305 .853 5.9 5.0 1.7 .6 28.5

1997 NBA All-Rookie Second Team
1999 All-NBA Third Team
2000, 2001 All-NBA Second Team
2000 All-Defensive First Team

LeBron

Regular season
Year Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2003–04 Cleveland 79 79 39.5 .417 .290 .754 5.5 5.9 1.6 .7 20.9
2004–05 Cleveland 80 80 42.4 .472 .351 .750 7.4 7.2 2.2 .6 27.2
2005–06 Cleveland 79 79 42.5 .480 .335 .738 7.0 6.6 1.6 .8 31.4
2006–07 Cleveland 78 78 40.9 .476 .319 .698 6.7 6.0 1.6 .7 27.3
2007–08 Cleveland 75 74 40.4 .484 .315 .712 7.9 7.2 1.8 1.1 30.0

2004 Rookie of the Year
2005 All-NBA Second Team
2006 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2006 All-NBA First Team
2007 All-NBA Second Team
2008 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2008 All-NBA First Team
2008 NBA Scoring Champion

How many years was Kobe in the league before he made an All-NBA team or led the league in scoring? How old was he then? And LeBron? Look at the stats across the board...FG%, 3P%, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, points. LeBron has better numbers in every aspect of his game except Ft%, but if you look up the free throw numbers, I bet LeBron shot a whole lot more of them.

No player in the history of the game has come into the league at such a young age and dominated as LBJ has. Now, just imagine where LeBron will be with another 6-7 years of development!!! He is hardly overrated and if anyone says there is another player in the league they would rather have if they were staring a team tomorrow they are crazy.

Go Cavs!

YGK1051
11-20-2008, 03:39 PM
completely agree with bigalow80...kobe can't even dominate a game like king james can he does have the power speed or athleticsim which leads me to believe lebron is the best in the nba and is not overated what so ever

the life
11-20-2008, 03:46 PM
For me Lebron seems to be overrated.
Why?

- First he doesn't have the passion for the game Kobe and Jordan have. He seems to have something from Vince’s attitude sometimes.
- Second he doesn't have the ball handling skills Kobe and Jordan have. His technique is not polished enough.
- Third he seems to be a lot more interesting about the stardom than about wining a title (he is more of a public person today than Kobe ever was)
- Forth he doesn’t seem to make his teammates better on the field (a bit like Iverson). When he starts doing his act everybody else from his team become a bit useless. He doesn’t seem to have the leadership Jordan and Kobe (recently) have.

NBA desperately try’s to make Lebron the new poster boy and this is why he is pushed hard to be as public and visible as possible.

But what I doubt the most about Lebron is his heart. I don’t think he has any loyalty to the Cavs organization and the city of Cleveland and he will go for the biggest market possible (NY). He is a Donald Trump of basketball.

CleveHomer
11-20-2008, 09:04 PM
For me Lebron seems to be overrated.
Why?

- First he doesn't have the passion for the game Kobe and Jordan have. He seems to have something from Vince’s attitude sometimes.
- Second he doesn't have the ball handling skills Kobe and Jordan have. His technique is not polished enough.
- Third he seems to be a lot more interesting about the stardom than about wining a title (he is more of a public person today than Kobe ever was)
- Forth he doesn’t seem to make his teammates better on the field (a bit like Iverson). When he starts doing his act everybody else from his team become a bit useless. He doesn’t seem to have the leadership Jordan and Kobe (recently) have.


All of your reasons here tell me that you do not pay attention at all.
1. He is nothing like VC. He has just a much pasion for the game as I've seen.
2. He has the body of a Power Forward, 6'9 250lbs, he is not going to handle the ball like MJ or Kobe because can just overpower everyone.
3. He knows what a legend is and he knows championships make them.
4. This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard by far. So player in the NBA compares to how much better Lebron makes his teammates. You obviously do not watch the games.

Utah47Jazz
11-20-2008, 09:43 PM
To me LeBron is underrated.
First, Nobody has EVER said he is better than MJ. People only say he is GOING to be better than MJ. Which I agree.
Second, LeBron is one of the most powerful players to ever stop on the court, and argueably the best driver to ever step on the court.
Third, He is a very underrated Defender, IMO.
He is UNDERRATED!

LeBron is 1 of 2 players who can actually change an entire game in the NBA. Paul Pierce can't, without KG and Allen he would've of never have been in the playoffs in the first place. CP3 is actually overrated, he is a great defender, is a great passer, but I think people overate his scoring ability. And Dwight Howard can't unless he has someone to fee him the ball.

One Thing, GIVE THE KID SOME TIME!

ptransfer
11-21-2008, 12:53 AM
No one has mentioned that MJ had Scottie Pippen, excellent, tough defensive minded teams and arguably the greatest offensive minded coach to ever play the game. I dont think Lebron is better than MJ, but i think he is close.

Before people start talking about his jump shot and his ball handling, who cares!!!! Look at his field goal % and Turn overs, there pretty similar to MJ. So offensively he's almost matching MJ, without a top 50 of all time players in Scottie Pippen, in fact without anyone for the past two years (unless Delonte West counts?)

MJ was a great defender, no question. But he wasn't asked to defend the oppostions best player, Scottie was. Secondly for ever defensive lapse he had Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman backing him up. Lebron may never be a great defender, LArry Bird wasn't, he just needs to carry his weight on team defence.

Finally MJ was great not only because of his athleticism, but because he utilised every advantage he could. He left no stone unturned talent wise, he never took a play off. He became a good defender, because it could help him win. He learnt to post up, so smaller, quicker defenders couldn't guard him. He played well off the ball, because he knew it would get him easy points. If it was 5 on 1 he would still probe the offence, just to see if their was something there. MJ never let up in any aspect of the game.

Lebron will never have what MJ had, he just doesn't want or need it as badly. He will never have as good a jumpshot, because he wont work on his form enough. He'll never be a good defender, because he didn;t get the fundamental learning in college. Luckily for him all that doens't matter, because he is just that damn physically gifted. This year he will post MJ like numbers, with only Mo Williams backing him up.

If Cleveland want to win it all, stop *****ing, and pull off another magical trade to get a decent perimiter defender who can shoot the 3 (hey i here that the Bobcats are shopping Gerald Wallace). There isn't a team in this league that can defend Lebron without committing at least 4 of their players to him when he drives. He listens to his coach, he passes when he's doubled, and he's not selfish on teh court. Stop talking about whether he's over rated, and start complaining about why he's backups are Wally Szerbiak, Sasha Pavalovic and Daniel Gibson

ARMIN12NBA
11-21-2008, 03:54 AM
Get your facts straight, the year the Cavs went to the finals was the year the Wizards were at their best with all 3 of their stars, the Nets had their big 3 and a healthy Nenad Krstic, and Pistons, well, they were supposed to beat the Cavs.....I really don't see how taking a team to 7 games in round1 is such an accomplishment, did they upset the Suns? NO....the suns will allow any team to score so they're prone to lose, specially in the playoffs were defense raises up to another level......They still went home in the first round, you can't believe this, you can't believe that but they still went home in the first round, yay.....Kobe's highlight of his career without another all star is taking the suns to 7 games in the first round, whoohoo.....LBJ isn't overated based on the facts you just put out, you're overating Kobe when you think taking the Suns who has no defense to 7 games is an overwhelming accomplishment.....:speechless:

You must be completely ignorant or have just started becoming a Cavs fan...The Cavs went to the Finals in 06-07. Here is Caron's profile...There is no stats for 06-07 playoffs because he was injured...

Caron Butler (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleca01.html)

Here is Gilbert Arenas with the same thing:

Gilbert Arenas (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arenagi01.html)

There you go buddy. Get YOUR facts straight. I was rooting for the Cavs to get through the Eastern Conference, but his awful play in the Eastern Conference Finals and the NBA Finals cannot be forgiven (don't point out Game 5...one good game doesn't matter...he shot a woeful % throughout the series and shot 35% against the Spurs). The guy has been a choker in the playoffs every year against solid teams (35% against the Celtics). Way too overrated...

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
11-21-2008, 08:39 AM
You must be completely ignorant or have just started becoming a Cavs fan...The Cavs went to the Finals in 06-07. Here is Caron's profile...There is no stats for 06-07 playoffs because he was injured...

Caron Butler (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/butleca01.html)

Here is Gilbert Arenas with the same thing:

Gilbert Arenas (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/arenagi01.html)

There you go buddy. Get YOUR facts straight. I was rooting for the Cavs to get through the Eastern Conference, but his awful play in the Eastern Conference Finals and the NBA Finals cannot be forgiven (don't point out Game 5...one good game doesn't matter...he shot a woeful % throughout the series and shot 35% against the Spurs). The guy has been a choker in the playoffs every year against solid teams (35% against the Celtics). Way too overrated...

How is he way too overrated? Just because he lost in the finals when he was only in the league for 4 years? He also had a inferior team to the Spurs..

He chokes against solid teams eh? What did he do that year to the Pistons? Don't say they weren't solid because they were good enough to be favored.

You are fairly ignorant for thinking he is overrated. Why because his stat line doesn't compare to Michael Jordan!? Wow.. You for one are comparing a guy who has had his time in the NBA to a guy who still might not be in his prime.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
11-21-2008, 09:21 AM
I feel the LBJ comparison to MJ died out a bit. So I am not sure why people keep bringing that up?

Sbank
11-21-2008, 10:31 PM
I feel the LBJ comparison to MJ died out a bit. So I am not sure why people keep bringing that up?

It's more to do with them trying to make LeBron look bad compared to MJ. I don't think you can compare to the two. Two different eras in the NBA and different style playing.

MrBloop
11-22-2008, 03:23 PM
I have been a Cavs fan since I can remember (about 20+ years), and I have seen a lot of Cavs players all my life. To me, LeBron James seems overrated. He has no jumpshot (0% from three), and he is very bad in the fundamentals of the game...yet we're going to proclaim him to be better than MJ, the same person who made "The Shot" against us, or even than Kobe (whom I really hate with a passion). I just don't see what is very special about LeBron, other than his athleticism which he relies on almost everytime to get his points. Where is his defense? Where is the fundamentals? Where is the Jumpshot? Where is the post up game?

I need to see him become a great all around player before even considering him to be one of the top players of all time.

What do you guys think? And please, let's talk like real basketball fans. No bias.

No he's not overrated...at all.

Who's saying he's better than MJ???? any1 with any knowledge of the game wouldn't dare at this point.

His jumper gets better every year and he he has a habit of knocking down clutch jumpers...especially 3's.

His fundamentals are fine, he can shoot the ball above avg, he can handle the ball exceptionally well, he passes like a hall of fame PG, he shares the ball, runs the floor, and gets to any spot on the court he wants with ease.

He also relishes the role of being a superstar and a leader.

He's a face up player at this point, but he's developing a post game, that will come, it took MJ half his career to get an effective one.


His defense is probrobly the weakest part of his game and the X factor that keeps him from being regarded as better than Kobe.


Cavs fan for 20 years, damn wuts that like:eyebrow: rough, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

MrBloop
11-22-2008, 03:27 PM
The fact that this thread exists, tells me its overrated.

NYMetros
11-22-2008, 10:48 PM
Why would LeBron be overrated? He's the best player in the NBA right now. No questions asked.

He gets into the paint with ease and continues to make outstanding pass after pass to set up teammates for opportunites to succeed. Or he can just take it to the basket himself and slam it in right in front of the defender's face.

That is why he has made it far into the playoffs before.

ARMIN12NBA
11-23-2008, 04:08 AM
How is he way too overrated? Just because he lost in the finals when he was only in the league for 4 years? He also had a inferior team to the Spurs..

He chokes against solid teams eh? What did he do that year to the Pistons? Don't say they weren't solid because they were good enough to be favored.

You are fairly ignorant for thinking he is overrated. Why because his stat line doesn't compare to Michael Jordan!? Wow.. You for one are comparing a guy who has had his time in the NBA to a guy who still might not be in his prime.

He had shooting nights of 5 for 15, 7 for 19, 8 for 19, and 3 for 11. He basically had 2 good games in the entire series and people proclaimed him the second coming. If it wasn't for the entire Cavs squad then the Cavs lose that series. Lebron had two good games, but the Cavs won four to win the series (obviously). People seem to forget he had a crappy series.

TMAC94
11-23-2008, 08:06 AM
LeBron is a SF, he scores as his supposed to, but he can switch to PG mode, and get his players invloved, he also has great rebounding numbers, id rather have him over kobe, coz kobe is a hog

Utah47Jazz
11-23-2008, 04:44 PM
He had shooting nights of 5 for 15, 7 for 19, 8 for 19, and 3 for 11. He basically had 2 good games in the entire series and people proclaimed him the second coming. If it wasn't for the entire Cavs squad then the Cavs lose that series. Lebron had two good games, but the Cavs won four to win the series (obviously). People seem to forget he had a crappy series.

But they won that series because of LeBron.

IndiansFan337
11-24-2008, 12:25 AM
It's more to do with them trying to make LeBron look bad compared to MJ. I don't think you can compare to the two. Two different eras in the NBA and different style playing.

Exactly.

If anything, he's underrated. Why? Because so many people like to called him overrated. That, in turn, underrates his abilities as the top player currently in the NBA.

No, he is not Michael Jordan. He is LeBron James. Michael Jordan is retired. He played in a different era. He won 6 championships. He played over twice as many years in the NBA as LBJ. So let's not compare them. There's no point. We all know how that will end up.

But if we are going to compare him to the players currently in the NBA then any list of top players has to start with this kid. There's no one in the NBA that can impact a game like he does, in every aspect.

calakers
11-26-2008, 10:18 PM
i dont hes over rated but when they compare him the best players ever then hes overated lebron is good but the reason he averges so many points is because his team is not very good. they say hes better than kobe because why hes get more points and 2 reb and *** look at lebron he has to everthing and alot of playing time almost the whole look at kobe still competeing with all the top dogs and only gets 33 mins per game

IndiansFan337
11-27-2008, 01:33 AM
i dont hes over rated but when they compare him the best players ever then hes overated lebron is good but the reason he averges so many points is because his team is not very good. they say hes better than kobe because why hes get more points and 2 reb and *** look at lebron he has to everthing and alot of playing time almost the whole look at kobe still competeing with all the top dogs and only gets 33 mins per game

He shouldn't be compared to the best players ever at this point in his career.

Anyone who tries to compare him to MJ or Magic Johnson is comparing his style of play, not the accomplishments that each has achieved. Those guys played about 3x as many years in the NBA than LBJ has thus far, so obviously there is no reason to compare their careers.