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LD V2.0
11-04-2008, 11:42 PM
With Billups being moving out west, is Jose Calderon the best PG in the Eastern Conference?


I forgot to add a poll to this thread. Would a mod be kind enough to add one for me? Thanks.

phillyphan4ever
11-04-2008, 11:45 PM
not even the best in his division...

LD V2.0
11-04-2008, 11:46 PM
Haha, says the Philly fan. Shall we begin by comparing stats?

scrumptiousduck
11-04-2008, 11:53 PM
wow u r a simp

phillyphan4ever
11-04-2008, 11:54 PM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

marvILLous
11-04-2008, 11:54 PM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

LOL calderon is cocky? calderon isn't a leader? HAHA

J$mo0th_3o5
11-04-2008, 11:56 PM
Calderon is a beast he's on my fantay team :D

Ragun
11-05-2008, 12:00 AM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

:pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity: :pity:

Lakersfan2483
11-05-2008, 12:01 AM
No, he's not better than Andre Miller, G. Arenas

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:02 AM
My money is on him getting a lot more all-star votes than Andre.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 12:04 AM
wow u r a simp

what does that even mean? :confused:

Ragun
11-05-2008, 12:06 AM
i stopped discussing sports but i have to come back for this one.
calderon led his team to the win. phillyfan you said andre miller is like the 4th-5th option. he is jacking up about 15 shots per game.

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 12:06 AM
LOL calderon is cocky? calderon isn't a leader? HAHA

I was thinking the same thing :laugh2: pretty much everyone on the Raps is a 'leader', they're all good guys that push eachother hard. Calderon has improved his defense this year IMO and he is on another level than Miller offensively. Anyone feel free to argue this but I'm positive that I can back myself up.

That being said, he is probably the best in the East but not necessarily because he's good enough to be called the best in a conference, but because there really aren't a lot of good PGs out east.

RocketsRule
11-05-2008, 12:09 AM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

Pretty much all of those statements are false.

Calderon is one of the better leaders, he is vocal and cares for his teammates.

And him being cocky? Please...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
11-05-2008, 12:09 AM
Andre Miller is better.
AI is better.
Calderon is 3rd best.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 12:11 AM
Andre Miller is better.
AI is better.
Calderon is 3rd best.

I was surprised it took everyone this long to bring up AI.

scrumptiousduck
11-05-2008, 12:12 AM
simp is an LA word

RocketsRule
11-05-2008, 12:12 AM
I was surprised it took everyone this long to bring up AI.

Many people think him as a SG as opposed to a PG.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:14 AM
Andre Miller is better.
AI is better.
Calderon is 3rd best.

AI has been playing the 2 for how many season's now? Even when he was starting at the 1 he played more like a 2, dominating the ball and not getting his troops involved. Iverson may have the body of a PG but he's no PG.

astrosmaniac
11-05-2008, 12:14 AM
the only one in the east you who is clear cut better is AI. you can argue rando and miller, although i think hes better than both

NYMetros
11-05-2008, 12:16 AM
Best right now? Yes. Just because Gilbert is injured though.

If you consider AI a PG (which I do), then he is easily the best.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:17 AM
what does that even mean? :confused:

It was meant to be an insult.


simp is an LA word

The definition which received the most thumbs up:


simp

a guy who acts all tough like he doesn't care about his girlfriend around his friends but acts all whipped in front of his girlfriend.

(to friends)
Simp: Alicia's nothin to me. I don't even like her, man. I'm just playin her.
(to Alicia)
Simp: Baby girl, i love you. You're my everything.

Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=simp)

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 12:20 AM
AI has been playing the 2 for how many season's now? Even when he was starting at the 1 he played more like a 2, dominating the ball and not getting his troops involved. Iverson may have the body of a PG but he's no PG.

but he is going to start at PG for the Pistons and he will start the Allstar game assuming there are no injuries.

J$mo0th_3o5
11-05-2008, 12:22 AM
Tego Calderon. Lol

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:22 AM
but he is going to start at PG for the Pistons and he will start the Allstar game assuming there are no injuries.

Haven't had a chance to read any articles today. So its been confirmed that they're starting him at the point? No chance of Stuckey starting? All the rumors over the off-season involved Billups being moved to make way for Stuckey to start....

SAVAGE CLAW
11-05-2008, 12:23 AM
Oh yeah, Damm cocky.

He is so cocky than last year when TJ was moaning and groaning and disturbing the team chemistry because he wasnt starting, he went to Mitchell and said it woudl be ok to bench him in order to restore Team Chemistry.

ON HIS CONTRACT YEAR!!!!

kvrnm
11-05-2008, 12:26 AM
rondo baby!! hed run circles around calderon..

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:27 AM
Actually Jose ripped Rondo a new one when they met last year. Rondo was the one who couldn't keep up.

NYMetros
11-05-2008, 12:28 AM
Haven't had a chance to read any articles today. So its been confirmed that they're starting him at the point? No chance of Stuckey starting? All the rumors over the off-season involved Billups being moved to make way for Stuckey to start....

Iverson is starting. No way Stuckey gets the nod.

SAVAGE CLAW
11-05-2008, 12:35 AM
What surprise me is that there arent any hyped up posters claiming for Rose or Chalmers to be it.

kvrnm
11-05-2008, 12:36 AM
Actually Jose ripped Rondo a new one when they met last year. Rondo was the one who couldn't keep up.

all four times they played he did? jw.... and watch what will happen this year. rondo will kill him, hes more confident then ever.

marvILLous
11-05-2008, 12:40 AM
all four times they played he did? jw.... and watch what will happen this year. rondo will kill him, hes more confident then ever.

jose is too..

kvrnm
11-05-2008, 12:41 AM
jose is too..

it will be irrelevent i guess, boston is way to tough and physical for the raps..

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:44 AM
it will be irrelevent i guess, boston is way to tough and physical for the raps..

Yeah, that's why Boston got their ***** kicked by the lotto bound Pacers.

29$JerZ
11-05-2008, 12:46 AM
Atlanta - Mike Bibby
Boston - Rajon Rondo
Charlotte - Raymond Felton
Chicago - Derrick Rose + Kirk Hinrich
Cleveland - Mo Williams
Detroit = Allen Iverson(2 guard) + Rodney Stuckey
Indiana = T.J ford
Miami - Mario Chalmers
Milwaukee - Ramon Sessions
New York - Stephon Marbury + Chris Duhon
New Jersey - Devin Harris
Orlando - Jameer Nelson
Philledelphia - Andre Miller + Lou Williams
Toronto - Jose Calderon
Washington - Gilbert Arenas

IMO, those 5 are better then Calderon.

AFlagRules
11-05-2008, 12:48 AM
Atlanta - Mike Bibby
Boston - Rajon Rondo
Charlotte - Raymond Felton
Chicago - Derrick Rose + Kirk Hinrich
Cleveland - Mo Williams
Detroit = Allen Iverson(2 guard) + Rodney Stuckey
Indiana = T.J ford
Miami - Mario Chalmers
Milwaukee - Ramon Sessions
New York - Stephon Marbury + Chris Duhon
New Jersey - Devin Harris
Orlando - Jameer Nelson
Philledelphia - Andre Miller + Lou Williams
Toronto - Jose Calderon
Washington - Gilbert Arenas

IMO, those 5 are better then Calderon.

That's what happens when a player plays in Canada I guess. You Americans never watch him play. To say Miller and Rondo are better than Calderon, is to say Al Jefferson is better than Kevin Garnett. Calderon is clearly a level above both those PG's. Rondo or Miller couldn't hit a J to save their lives. While Calderon shoots 50% from 3. Bibby is closer, but he's way to old and in his prime he couldn't touch Calderon.

Arenas+AI = SG...Arenas doesn't play like a PG.

SAVAGE CLAW
11-05-2008, 12:50 AM
Has rondo learned how to shoot?

Has arenas learned to Pass?

Has Iverson Learned to Team Play Has he gave up being a Shooting Guard?.


Has Bibby gone younger?

Miller is the only one i accept on a similar level.

phillyphan4ever
11-05-2008, 12:51 AM
that stupid *** thing Calderon does when he hits a 3 pointer isnt cocky??? and id take andre millers leadership over calderons anyday...wait til some of my fellow sixers fans get in here to bck me up, since half the people that said i was wrong were raps fans

29$JerZ
11-05-2008, 12:52 AM
That's what happens when a player plays in Canada I guess. You Americans never watch him play. To say Miller and Rondo are better than Calderon, is to say Al Jefferson is better than Kevin Garnett. Calderon is clearly a level above both those PG's. Rondo or Miller couldn't hit a J to save their lives. While Calderon shoots 50% from 3. Bibby is closer, but he's way to old and in his prime he couldn't touch Calderon.

Arenas+AI = SG...Arenas doesn't play like a PG.

I do get to watch Toronto Games and Calderon is a Pg I really like just to let you know :)

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 12:53 AM
Atlanta - Mike Bibby
Boston - Rajon Rondo
Charlotte - Raymond Felton
Chicago - Derrick Rose + Kirk Hinrich
Cleveland - Mo Williams
Detroit = Allen Iverson(2 guard) + Rodney Stuckey
Indiana = T.J ford
Miami - Mario Chalmers
Milwaukee - Ramon Sessions
New York - Stephon Marbury + Chris Duhon
New Jersey - Devin Harris
Orlando - Jameer Nelson
Philledelphia - Andre Miller + Lou Williams
Toronto - Jose Calderon
Washington - Gilbert Arenas

IMO, those 5 are better then Calderon.

Calderon can score, has a wicked jump shot from anywhere on the floor. He has 3pt range and shoots a great percentage from there. He shoots over 50% from the floor as a pg. He never takes a bad shot and always tries to get to the basket and kick the ball out instead of taking a bad shot. He shoots 90% from the charity strip and averages 10 assists a game. This is not even an argument. Calderon is the best pg in the east.

hahah Miller is not better than Calderon. Calderon is a better playmaker and actually has a jump shot unlike Miller. Miller's game is limited because he has no outside shot.

Iverson I have always said is a sg. Yes he is a better player but he is not a better pg.

Rondo? Come on man, are you serious? Its just awful you brought him up. I cant even justify putting Rondo in the top 10. He has no jump shot and no offensive talent to speak of.

Bibby? What has he done lately? Bibby is over the hill and is no where near a top 10 pg. He is a liability and he has awful shot selection.

Ohh and of course Arenas. I forgot, is he even playing or is he just running his mouth on his blog on how he used to be better than Calderon. Arenas also happens to be the worst defender in the NBA.. He scores 30 a game but gives up 40... Its a nice trade off right?

AFlagRules
11-05-2008, 12:53 AM
I do get to watch Toronto Games and Calderon is a Pg I really like just to let you know :)

Than you would clearly be able to identify him as being better then a guy who can't shoot and wouldn't be **** if he wasn't on Boston, a guy who's past his time and 2 guys who never pass and play SG.

J$mo0th_3o5
11-05-2008, 12:55 AM
What surprise me is that there arent any hyped up posters claiming for Rose or Chalmers to be it.

I was actually going to bring up Chalmers but as a joke.

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 12:58 AM
that stupid *** thing Calderon does when he hits a 3 pointer isnt cocky??? and id take andre millers leadership over calderons anyday...wait til some of my fellow sixers fans get in here to bck me up, since half the people that said i was wrong were raps fans

so what difference does it make if the people backing you up are sixers fans? Congrats on superb logic.

to the guy that said Bibby and Rondo are better than Calderon, :laugh2:

SAVAGE CLAW
11-05-2008, 12:59 AM
Also Calderon is not a Leader?....

Nah Leading SPAIN to a World Championship is something you see every day....

29$JerZ
11-05-2008, 01:00 AM
Than you would clearly be able to identify him as being better then a guy who can't shoot and wouldn't be **** if he wasn't on Boston, a guy who's past his time and 2 guys who never pass and play SG.

Well it's a choice of opinion. Just because I say so doesn't ake it right now does it?

Miller is a good leader as is Jose.

Rondo led a championship team whether you disagree or not. Giving the ball to 3 guys won't beat the Lakers. If took everyone especially Rondo and Perkins.

Iverson is a better player and PG IMO because he is they type of player who makes his presense felt. Jus because he doesn't put up 10 assist a night doesn't mean he is a worser PG than Jose.

Gilber is a Scoring PG who can pass when he wants.

Bibby is older and pass his prime but he is still a good PG.

JordansBulls
11-05-2008, 01:00 AM
Iverson, Arenas, Andre Miller, Mo Williams, Derrick Rose are better

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 01:00 AM
that stupid *** thing Calderon does when he hits a 3 pointer isnt cocky??? and id take andre millers leadership over calderons anyday...wait til some of my fellow sixers fans get in here to bck me up, since half the people that said i was wrong were raps fans

Calderon last year had a better FG% (52%), FT% (90%), Assists per game (9), the best assist to turnover ratio in the league in the last 10 years. Those are all qualities you want in a great pg. Calderon manages the game just as well as the best pg's in the league. Plus he has an outside shot, something Miller does not have at all. How is this even an argument. Calderon is a complete pg and miller is not....Its just that simple!

Westbrook36
11-05-2008, 01:02 AM
Miller is better then Calderon.

My vote was for Miller, Not being a homer but He means sooooo much to the 76ers.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 01:03 AM
Well it's a choice of opinion. Just because I say so doesn't ake it right now does it?

Miller is a good leader as is Jose.

Rondo led a championship team whether you disagree or not. Giving the ball to 3 guys won't beat the Lakers. If took everyone especially Rondo and Perkins.

Iverson is a better player and PG IMO because he is they type of player who makes his presense felt. Jus because he doesn't put up 10 assist a night doesn't mean he is a worser PG than Jose.

Gilber is a Scoring PG who can pass when he wants.

Bibby is older and pass his prime but he is still a good PG.

You posted nothing of value there. Your comments on Gilbert, Bibby, Miller and Rondo offer nothing to prove a point that calderon is not as good as those guys. When you come back with something of value, than post!

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 01:05 AM
Well it's a choice of opinion. Just because I say so doesn't ake it right now does it?

Miller is a good leader as is Jose.

Rondo led a championship team whether you disagree or not. Giving the ball to 3 guys won't beat the Lakers. If took everyone especially Rondo and Perkins.

Iverson is a better player and PG IMO because he is they type of player who makes his presense felt. Jus because he doesn't put up 10 assist a night doesn't mean he is a worser PG than Jose.

Gilber is a Scoring PG who can pass when he wants.

Bibby is older and pass his prime but he is still a good PG.

I refuse to take anyone seriously who types like this. worser? come on man.


Iverson, Arenas, Andre Miller, Derrick Rose are better

I thought you were a pretty good poster until I got no cred for correcting one of your thread closing mistakes, and now saying Derrick Rose, one with 3 games of NBA experience, is better than the guy who was, what, 4th or 5th in the league in assists last year? I can see an argument for Iverson and Arenas because they are better 'players' although Arenas gives up more points than he scores and neither are point guards. Andre Miller is the only guy comparable.

Afridi786
11-05-2008, 01:05 AM
Calderon is best pure pg in the East.

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 01:06 AM
Miller is better then Calderon.

My vote was for Miller, Not being a homer but He means sooooo much to the 76ers.

Lou Williams as starting PG for the Sixers

Roko Ukic as starting PG for the Raptors

which team does better? awful argument.

xxdc2tegxx
11-05-2008, 01:06 AM
chalmers garbage...you can tell from his work ethic alone and off the court issue that he's going to be avg. at best in the league...hyped up for rose is obviously a different story?

18 5 *** 5 reb for the first three games of season...mind you his assist avg. will be closer to 8.5 if his teammates werent shooting 30%. His ceiling alone is higher than any pg in the past 10 YEARS let alone...the east...this year

Maybe not this year...but come on its hard to believe that rose won't be a top 3pg in 3 years.

Westbrook36
11-05-2008, 01:08 AM
Lou Williams as starting PG for the Sixers

Roko Ukic as starting PG for the Raptors

which team does better? awful argument.

What are you talking about? Miller is the heart and soul of this lineup.

The backups have nothing to do with them.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 01:10 AM
Last year Calderon had the best assist to turnover ratio. He takes care of the ball. Miller was 26th in the league in this category. Seems like he just cant take care of the ball..

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&league=nba&sort=astto&order=true&season=2008

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 01:10 AM
What are you talking about? Miller is the heart and soul of this lineup.

The backups have nothing to do with them.

read the post I quoted, comparing the importance of each player to their respective teams. So I proposed the idea of taking each player off of that team and what do you get? not saying that it's a GOOD thing that the Raps are so reliant on Calderon, but they would be lottery without him.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 01:11 AM
I will say it one more time...

Calderon last year had a better FG% (52%), FT% (90%), Assists per game (9), the best assist to turnover ratio in the league in the last 10 years. Those are all qualities you want in a great pg. Calderon manages the game just as well as the best pg's in the league. Plus he has an outside shot, something Miller does not have at all. How is this even an argument. Calderon is a complete pg and miller is not....Its just that simple!

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 01:12 AM
I will say it one more time...

Calderon last year had a better FG% (52%), FT% (90%), Assists per game (9), the best assist to turnover ratio in the league in the last 10 years. Those are all qualities you want in a great pg. Calderon manages the game just as well as the best pg's in the league. Plus he has an outside shot, something Miller does not have at all. How is this even an argument. Calderon is a complete pg and miller is not....Its just that simple!

don't forget 44% from 3pt. not sure where the argument lies either :confused:

xxdc2tegxx
11-05-2008, 01:13 AM
....but lets be real though...theres a the play "efficiency"--statistical type of view and Pure talent type of view

Calderon is easily--hell maybe only behind nash and paul--in terms of numbers and efficiency

Westbrook36
11-05-2008, 01:14 AM
read the post I quoted, comparing the importance of each player to their respective teams. So I proposed the idea of taking each player off of that team and what do you get? not saying that it's a GOOD thing that the Raps are so reliant on Calderon, but they would be lottery without him.

Just because we have a stud in Louis behind Miller dosnt meant that Calderon is more important?

AFlagRules
11-05-2008, 01:17 AM
Just because we have a stud in Louis behind Miller dosnt meant that Calderon is more important?

Stud lol.

I don't know how far behind Roko is from him.

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Just because we have a stud in Louis behind Miller dosnt meant that Calderon is more important?

yes it does :confused: if Calderon goes down the Raps are in much more trouble than if Miller went down...

this is getting unbelievable.

marvILLous
11-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Just because we have a stud in Louis behind Miller dosnt meant that Calderon is more important?

so you we're saying miller "means soooo much to the sixers", but how does that point prove he is better than calderon?

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Were talking about best overall PG, not the best player. You guys might think it means the same thing, but it doesn't.

Andre Miller is more of a leader then Calderon, and is more important to there team. It is alot easier to find a PG that can shoot well, but it is alot harder to find a PG that has the IQ level of a Andre Miller.

Calderon is the 3rd option on this team, while Miller is the 4th/5th option. I'm sure if Miller had to be the 3rd option on the 76ers, then his stats would be right up there with Calderons.

Ragun
11-05-2008, 01:19 AM
Miller is a really good pg. dont get me wrong but calderon is better. why? because he is a better scorer. they are pretty equal defensively and on assists.and calderons offense gives him the edge.

AFlagRules
11-05-2008, 01:20 AM
Were talking about best overall PG, not the best player. You guys might think it means the same thing, but it doesn't.

Andre Miller is more of a leader then Calderon, and is more important to there team. It is alot easier to find a PG that can shoot well, but it is alot harder to find a PG that has the IQ level of a Andre Miller.

Calderon is the 3rd option on this team, while Miller is the 4th/5th option. I'm sure if Miller had to be the 3rd option on the 76ers, then his stats would be right up there with Calderons.


WHAT DOES BEING AN OPTION HAVE TO DO WITH BEING A PG?

Miller CAN NOT, DOES NOT, WILL NOT have the vision or ability to pass the ball like Jose does. He will never shoot as efficient as Jose or score as flawlessly....wow.

Dol-Fan
11-05-2008, 01:21 AM
Were talking about best overall PG, not the best player. You guys might think it means the same thing, but it doesn't.

Andre Miller is more of a leader then Calderon, and is more important to there team. It is alot easier to find a PG that can shoot well, but it is alot harder to find a PG that has the IQ level of a Andre Miller.

Calderon is the 3rd option on this team, while Miller is the 4th/5th option. I'm sure if Miller had to be the 3rd option on the 76ers, then his stats would be right up there with Calderons.

but Miller averages more shot attempts per game, higher scoring averages (last season, at least) while having less assists and a far lower A/TO ratio. How does this make him the 4/5th option?

second question: Do you hide out in the Sixers and Raps lockerrooms? How do you, or I for that matter, know who is the better leader? is it because Miller can speak more fluent English? Fill me in, I'd love to know.

Ragun
11-05-2008, 01:26 AM
Were talking about best overall PG, not the best player. You guys might think it means the same thing, but it doesn't.

Andre Miller is more of a leader then Calderon, and is more important to there team. It is alot easier to find a PG that can shoot well, but it is alot harder to find a PG that has the IQ level of a Andre Miller.

Calderon is the 3rd option on this team, while Miller is the 4th/5th option. I'm sure if Miller had to be the 3rd option on the 76ers, then his stats would be right up there with Calderons.

WOW. first off how is andre miller a better leader than calderon? there is no way. 2nd, calderon is more important to the team. if he goes down, we are ****ed. you guys have lou if andre miller goes down. 3rd, calderon has better IQ than Andre Miller. you can ask any coach in the NBA and they will tell you that. THere is a reason why Calderon averaged like 1 TPG in like the last 3 years, because he doesnt make stupid plays. and he makes 10 apg while averaging like 2 tpg. andre miller jacks up like 15 shots per game, how is he the 4th/5th option? andre miller already puts up 15 shots per game so why isnt his stats up there then?

torontosports10
11-05-2008, 01:29 AM
O philly fans.. i try to keep it quiet and usually have respect for most of ya but your arguments for this is wayyy off. Jose is a better passer, scorer and i dont know why you are saying leader with they both are?? They are both good but Jose is a bit better.

AI
Jose
Miller

thats my order

Ragun
11-05-2008, 01:29 AM
WHAT DOES BEING AN OPTION HAVE TO DO WITH BEING A PG?

Miller CAN NOT, DOES NOT, WILL NOT have the vision or ability to pass the ball like Jose does. He will never shoot as efficient as Jose or score as flawlessly....wow.

well miller is a sick passer. in fact the best alley oop passer in the NBA.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 01:30 AM
but Miller averages more shot attempts per game, higher scoring averages (last season, at least) while having less assists and a far lower A/TO ratio. How does this make him the 4/5th option?

second question: Do you hide out in the Sixers and Raps lockerrooms? How do you, or I for that matter, know who is the better leader? is it because Miller can speak more fluent English? Fill me in, I'd love to know.

When we traded Iverson over to the Nuggets and we got Miller in return, all of the Nuggets players were incredibly sad, didn't get over the fact he left for awhile. This was the same with the Clippers as Brand was his teammate in Los Angeles too.

It's not that he was only the leader of the 76ers, but of both the Clippers and Nuggets when he played there too. He was "loved" by many of his teammates regardless of where he played. He was there leader, while there were other great players still there.

And with the Last season, just forget about it. The 76ers are a completely different team from last year to this year. Comparing any stats Miller had last year, considering he was the 2nd option last year and is now the 4th with Brand and Thaddeus ahead of him, is just rediculous.

And btw, I do hide in the 76ers/Raptors lockerroom.

DONT TELL ANYONE! :rolleyes:

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 01:30 AM
well miller is a sick passer. in fact the best alley oop passer in the NBA.

He also has the best shot fake in the NBA by far, it's really not even close.

and dont get me wrong, I would have any of these 2 guys as my PG anyday, but I would rather have the expierence and IQ of Andre Miller rather then Jose Calderon, but if I couldn't have Andre I would be fine with Jose too.

I Am Awesome-O
11-05-2008, 01:34 AM
Derrick Rose is about the best point guard in the East my man, so why even discuss this.

Ragun
11-05-2008, 01:34 AM
When we traded Iverson over to the Nuggets and we got Miller in return, all of the Nuggets players were incredibly sad, didn't get over the fact he left for awhile. This was the same with the Clippers as Brand was his teammate in Los Angeles too.

It's not that he was only the leader of the 76ers, but of both the Clippers and Nuggets when he played there too. He was "loved" by many of his teammates regardless of where he played. He was there leader, while there were other great players still there.

And with the Last season, just forget about it. The 76ers are a completely different team from last year to this year. Comparing any stats Miller had last year, considering he was the 2nd option last year and is now the 4th with Brand and Thaddeus ahead of him, is just rediculous.

And btw, I do hide in the 76ers/Raptors lockerroom.

DONT TELL ANYONE! :rolleyes:
and you dont think the Raptors players love Jose?

He also has the best shot fake in the NBA by far, it's really not even close.

and dont get me wrong, I would have any of these 2 guys as my PG anyday, but I would rather have the expierence and IQ of Andre Miller rather then Jose Calderon, but if I couldn't have Andre I would be fine with Jose too.
heard of some one called Kobe? and where are you getting this IQ crap from?

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 01:40 AM
and you dont think the Raptors players love Jose?

heard of some one called Kobe? and where are you getting this IQ crap from?

I think iv'e heard of that guy somewhere, doesn't he play for the Bobcats?

Also, IQ I mean in knowing where your teammates going to be at all times, making the best move at that time etc.

Expierence helps your IQ

marvILLous
11-05-2008, 01:49 AM
I think iv'e heard of that guy somewhere, doesn't he play for the Bobcats?

Also, IQ I mean in knowing where your teammates going to be at all times, making the best move at that time etc.

Expierence helps your IQ

yea and miller doesn't have a better pump fake than kobe. and what you just describe is what makes jose calderon so good... you just described the way he plays.

JIDsanity
11-05-2008, 01:50 AM
Obamamamama

cmoneytakemoney
11-05-2008, 01:53 AM
Calderon is good but, Rajon Rondo is better. Wait til they match up. Rondo will burn him and, pick his pocket all day. I seen him do it to Tony Parker and Andre Miller.

kvrnm
11-05-2008, 01:54 AM
Yeah, that's why Boston got their ***** kicked by the lotto bound Pacers.

yaa since regular season games are soooo important.... that said the celts will win 10-15 more of them then your raps.... look wut we did to houston tonight? dont try to pick out one game that boston obviously didnt get up for.

AFlagRules
11-05-2008, 01:58 AM
Calderon is good but, Rajon Rondo is better. Wait til they match up. Rondo will burn him and, pick his pocket all day. I seen him do it to Tony Parker and Andre Miller.

That's going straight in my sig. When Rondo gets embarrassed I'll be laughing pretty hard.

cmoneytakemoney
11-05-2008, 02:00 AM
That's what happens when a player plays in Canada I guess. You Americans never watch him play. To say Miller and Rondo are better than Calderon, is to say Al Jefferson is better than Kevin Garnett. Calderon is clearly a level above both those PG's. Rondo or Miller couldn't hit a J to save their lives. While Calderon shoots 50% from 3. Bibby is closer, but he's way to old and in his prime he couldn't touch Calderon.

Arenas+AI = SG...Arenas doesn't play like a PG.

Calderon is definitely not a step up on Rondo and, Andre Miller. That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Either you don't watch much basketball or, your just not too smart because that comment is straight up ridiculous.

cmoneytakemoney
11-05-2008, 02:04 AM
That's going straight in my sig. When Rondo gets embarrassed I'll be laughing pretty hard.

Rondo will kill Calderon. The only thing Jose Calderon can do better than Rondo is shoot. Rondo is a way better defender, he's 10 times more athletic, he is twice as quick, and he can get to the basket as good as any PG in basketball.

amare#1
11-05-2008, 02:06 AM
Yes easily. Glad to see he is getting the recognition he deserves.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 02:22 AM
Yes easily. Glad to see he is getting the recognition he deserves.

:speechless:

IversonIsKrazy
11-05-2008, 02:25 AM
Well if u consider Agent 0 and AI PG's, then its 1. AI 2. Agent 0 3. Jose 4. Andre 5. Mo-Will 6. Rondo

If you dont then jose probally is the best outta those. im sorry, but jose and miller r pretty evened out in every aspect expect shooting. I think we all know of andre's shooting disabililty, lol. hes horendous. while jose has one of the best shots. mo-will is also very good, but i'd still rank jose and andre over him. and as far as rondo goes, i would establish him as 1 of the better 1z.

michaellui11
11-05-2008, 02:34 AM
East
1. AI
2. Arenas
3. Miller
4. Calderon
5. Devin Harris

SAVAGE CLAW
11-05-2008, 02:36 AM
I wonder what this tread would look like if he was named Joe Cauldron and Came From Gary Indiana

SAVAGE CLAW
11-05-2008, 02:38 AM
Or if yesterday that 27 points 16 rebounds, 3 blocks 1 steal 1 assist line on 9/11 shooting ( first time a rookie makes more than 25+15 in his first 5 games since shaq in 92) if it had been performed by MarK Gassolson From Austin Texas.

LAKERS 24/7
11-05-2008, 03:03 AM
07-08

Andre:

17/4/7 1 SPG 2.5 TPG 49% FG 8% 3PT 77% FT 37MPG

Calderon:

11/3/8 1 SPG 1.5 TPG 52% FG 43% 3PT 90% FT 30 MPG

Closer than I thought, but Jose Cuervo takes it.

JermanJaysFan
11-05-2008, 03:05 AM
I'm gonna say my piece.

First- his shooting ability is phenomenal.

Next, consider Jose's amazing shooting efficiency. In the history of the NBA only five players have ever shot over 90% from the free-throw line, over 50% from the field, and over 40% from 3-point range for an entire season. That list of players is Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Larry Bird (twice!), Reggie Miller, and Mark Price.
http://torontoist.com/2008/01/jose_calderon_s.php
That article was written mid season- you can add Jose's name to the list.

Next, he was one of the best players ever in terms of taking care of the ball.


Take his assist-to-turnover ratio. Jose currently leads the NBA in this category with a ratio of 5.58. Anything above 5-to-1 is simply incredible. In fact, only six players in NBA history have ever managed that for an entire season. Jose is even more impressive if you look at players who kept a 5-to-1 ratio AND dished out more than 5 assists per game. (Calderon is currently at 8.4.) Only two players have ever managed to do that: Muggsy Bogues (three times!) and Terrell Brandon.
Note: Jose finished with a 5.38:1 Ast/TO ratio, averaging 8.3 per game.

http://torontoist.com/2008/01/jose_calderon_s.php

And finally, the attitude:


There’s a reason why Jose Calderon is one of the most popular players in the Toronto Raptors’ locker room, and one of the better-liked guys around the League. There’s no ego or pretension with him; dude is all about winning.

Case in point: Last night, he finally convinced coach Sam Mitchell to bring him off the bench, and let TJ Ford start in his place. Even with big dollars at stake in the free agent market this summer, Jose felt this was the best option for the team.

“We’ve been struggling and talking a lot about what we can do to get better. I always put my team first and I was talking to [Sam] and said let’s try to change to lineup again and see if we can make something happen.”

“I have an ego, but my team is first. I work for the Raptors and I play for the Raptors, I don’t play for Jose Calderon. What I want is to be in the playoffs, I want to have a chance to play in the second round, so I don’t try to be 20 points a game or something like that. I think this is a good idea to change everything so this is something I have to do.”
http://slamonline.com/online/nba/2008/03/jose-calderon-all-about-the-team/

I think that right there tells you what kind of special player he was last year, and he has clearly improved this year. I have a lot of respect for Andre Miller, but I think Jose's well rounded game just puts him a step ahead. He is the best "pure" PG in the East for sure, although AI is a better player.

number1nykfan25
11-05-2008, 03:08 AM
Joe Johnson consideration anyone? I don't watch the hawks much so i am not sure if he is classified as a two guard or a point guard.

JermanJaysFan
11-05-2008, 03:14 AM
Joe Johnson consideration anyone? I don't watch the hawks much so i am not sure if he is classified as a two guard or a point guard.

I think he is def. a 2 guard, especially with Bibby around.

number1nykfan25
11-05-2008, 03:19 AM
i forgot the hawks had Bibby. thats a pretty damn good back court combo. i just checked out the hawks roster it looks pretty damn good.

Hellcrooner
11-05-2008, 03:44 AM
Jose is the best OLD SCHOOL point guard in the whole league, since Kidd and Iverson are Dclining.

BUt of course he cant match the skills of the new SHHOOTING POINT GUARD breed like Paul or Williams.

its a different game

Talick
11-05-2008, 03:56 AM
Jose is the best OLD SCHOOL point guard in the whole league, since Kidd and Iverson are Dclining.

BUt of course he cant match the skills of the new SHHOOTING POINT GUARD breed like Paul or Williams.

its a different game

I would call them the old school/ shooting point guard prototypes

They're on another level indeed.

Chicagofaithful
11-05-2008, 04:44 AM
D rose anyone? lol

NJrockPD
11-05-2008, 04:48 AM
D-rose

TMAC94
11-05-2008, 05:29 AM
i think AI is a point gaurd and will def start, but miller and rondo also better

EricGordon#10
11-05-2008, 06:56 AM
i think AI is a point gaurd and will def start, but miller and rondo also better

Can you explain to me how rondo is better then Calderon?

Gilbert>Calderon IMO but they have different styles of play.

Draco
11-05-2008, 07:36 AM
Calderon is being a bit overrated. It's probably more accurate to say he's in a good situation with the team he's on.. than to say he's the "best PG" in the east. I never thought of him as elite PG.

Kidddd
11-05-2008, 08:19 AM
Calderon is No. 1.
Hands down.

Lakers4ItAll
11-05-2008, 08:44 AM
Who??? LOL

Ragun
11-05-2008, 09:05 AM
Iverson, Arenas, Andre Miller, Mo Williams, Derrick Rose are better

:pity: please explain how.

nstojic
11-05-2008, 09:09 AM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

hahahahahahahaha:clap::clap::clap:

this is so ridiculous on its own that i don't even feel like breaking it down for analysis..

Faneik
11-05-2008, 09:37 AM
I voted other.

If Iverson is the starting PG for the Pistons, he'll be the best. Not the best playmaker, but the best player.

The best playmaker PG in the East is definitelly Calderon or Andre Miller.

I have Calderon in fantasy. AH AH AH.:clap:

Faneik
11-05-2008, 09:39 AM
Yeah, but watchout for Rose, he'll be the main PG of the East in 1/2 years.

snow22
11-05-2008, 09:51 AM
jose avg more ast way less turnovers shoots a much better % runs a better team with a better record. oh wait he isnt american so miller is better.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 09:52 AM
Calderon's stats show that he's more efficient than any other PG in the east at scoring. He has the best assist to turnover ratio since John Stockton like 15 years ago....And maybe that doesn't quite do it justice., let me break it down for you guys who don't seem to appreciate assist to turnover ratio. Last season Calderon was the best in that category at 5.38; as I said, the best since JOHN STOCKTON. Next best who played more than 30 minutes a game? Chris Paul at 4.6...Billups wasat 3.31...Roy was at 3.16...D Will was at 3.09...Jose's teammate TJ Ford, who is ALSO better than most of the guys mentioned in here, at 3.05.........Ooooooon down the list was Andrea Miller with 2.74. Pretty close to half that of Jose Calderon.

For ever 5 assists Jose will turn the ball over once. Thats unheard of in the league today and the only guy who comes close is Chris Paul.


Calderon is good but, Rajon Rondo is better. Wait til they match up. Rondo will burn him and, pick his pocket all day. I seen him do it to Tony Parker and Andre Miller.

Again? What are you basing this on? How Jose raped Rondo last season? It wasn't even close when he played Toronto last season. Both Jose and TJ had their way with him.

pebloemer
11-05-2008, 10:04 AM
that stupid *** thing Calderon does when he hits a 3 pointer isnt cocky??? and id take andre millers leadership over calderons anyday...wait til some of my fellow sixers fans get in here to bck me up, since half the people that said i was wrong were raps fans

Have anything to say to the other half then? Rather than getting into a debate between two teams who will most likely just say their player is better.

dbow1920
11-05-2008, 10:09 AM
now granted, ive only seen calderon play a few times, but i get to watch miller every game...miller is the perfect point guard, he scores when he has to, he is the best passer in the nba, and hes a leader...hes the perfect player to model yourself after if you want to be a point guard....and like someone said before hes our 5th scoring option so you cant really go on stats

nstojic
11-05-2008, 10:11 AM
jose avg more ast way less turnovers shoots a much better % runs a better team with a better record. oh wait he isnt american so miller is better.

DING DING DING !!!! winnnnnnerrrrrr!

also, well put

nstojic
11-05-2008, 10:13 AM
now granted, ive only seen calderon play a few times, but i get to watch miller every game...miller is the perfect point guard, he scores when he has to, he is the best passer in the nba, and hes a leader...hes the perfect player to model yourself after if you want to be a point guard....and like someone said before hes our 5th scoring option so you cant really go on stats

hold on a sec, how can you NOT go on stats... ???? when a guy puts that many shots up a game(13-15), like it or not, he's MAKING himself one of the top scoring options...

all in all, you're not there in the huddle, you're not the coach.. you don't know what option he is or what plays are called for him alone... we're fans and all we have to go on is stats... so, go look at them...

also, miller can't shot 3's... eat it philly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Draco
11-05-2008, 10:13 AM
Last season Calderon was the best in that category at 5.38; as I said, the best since JOHN STOCKTON.

The Calderon/Bosh duo didn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs and only made 1 appearance so far.. that's why I'm not jumping on the bandwagon. The Stockton/Malone duo accomplished a lot more on a team that had more offensive/defensive balance than the Raptors.

Yeah, Calderon's stats look good and he's also playing with Bosh and Oneal.. so I take it with a grain of salt.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 10:34 AM
The Calderon/Bosh duo didn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs and only made 1 appearance so far.. that's why I'm not jumping on the bandwagon. The Stockton/Malone duo accomplished a lot more on a team that had more offensive/defensive balance than the Raptors.

Actually, this is Colangelo's third season with Toronto and the team has made the playoffs in back to back years...Many people said that Bosh was the best player at the Olympics for team USA and Calderon has been the best player on the Spanish team for years now...



Yeah, Calderon's stats look good and he's also playing with Bosh and Oneal.. so I take it with a grain of salt.

People haven't been using this year's stats as an argument, they've been using last year's stats as an argument. Jermaine O'neal wasn't here last season...This season Jermaine hasn't drawn any doubles and has not been effective on the offensive end. He's making life easier on D but he hasn't been helping out much on offense...So your argument is weak.

Miller has Iggy and Brand. Arenas had Jameson and Butler. Rondo has KG, Allen and Pierce...Wait, your argument is extremely weak.

bartlett2266
11-05-2008, 10:38 AM
calderon doesnt make mistakes good shooter finds everyone on the floor. andre miller has been been on 4 or 5 different teams for a reason, and arenas isnt a true PG
Calderon = all star

nstojic
11-05-2008, 10:44 AM
The Calderon/Bosh duo didn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs and only made 1 appearance so far.. that's why I'm not jumping on the bandwagon. The Stockton/Malone duo accomplished a lot more on a team that had more offensive/defensive balance than the Raptors.

Yeah, Calderon's stats look good and he's also playing with Bosh and Oneal.. so I take it with a grain of salt.

hahaha you used a point there that defeated your own argument hahahaha that's like me saying 'calderon is such a good passing PG but there are great players around him to make those shots' hahaha get it? i wouldn't say that.. haha

Draco
11-05-2008, 10:49 AM
Actually, this is Colangelo's third season with Toronto and the team has made the playoffs in back to back years...Many people said that Bosh was the best player at the Olympics for team USA and Calderon has been the best player on the Spanish team for years now...



People haven't been using this year's stats as an argument, they've been using last year's stats as an argument. Jermaine O'neal wasn't here last season...This season Jermaine hasn't drawn any doubles and has not been effective on the offensive end. He's making life easier on D but he hasn't been helping out much on offense...So your argument is weak.

Miller has Iggy and Brand. Arenas had Jameson and Butler. Rondo has KG, Allen and Pierce...Wait, your argument is extremely weak.

My mistake.. the raptors are 8-3 in the last two post seasons and won a single game against the Magic.. goodie for the Raptors.

What does Calderon possibly being the best player on the Spanish olympic team have anything to do with being the best PG in the eastern conference of the NBA? Nothing.

"People haven't been using this year's stats as an argument"
Might be an incorrect assumption but I'm guessing most people outside of T-dot don't care about Calderon's stats..

Look, all I did was express doubt that he's the "best". Perhaps he is.. we'll see what he does this season and more importantly this offseason. Right now it looks to me that this thread is created to blow sunshine up the arse.

Hellcrooner
11-05-2008, 10:52 AM
I wonder what this tread would look like if he was named Joe Cauldron and Came From Gary Indiana
Then he would be Bob Cousys Second coming!!!

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 11:02 AM
What does Calderon possibly being the best player on the Spanish olympic team have anything to do with being the best PG in the eastern conference of the NBA? Nothing.

Maybe because Calderon was the best player and the leader of a World Champion Team? Maybe because Bosh played the best at the Olympics on a World Champion Team? You doubted duo..



"People haven't been using this year's stats as an argument"
Might be an incorrect assumption but I'm guessing most people outside of T-dot don't care about Calderon's stats..

Obviously they do. Look around. Read. The coaches will care when they're selecting him for the All-Star game.

Hellcrooner
11-05-2008, 11:05 AM
^Bad bad, now you gonna bring all the KObe, Lebron and Wade loverboys to troll the Thread.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:11 AM
Were talking about best overall PG, not the best player. You guys might think it means the same thing, but it doesn't.

Andre Miller is more of a leader then Calderon, and is more important to there team. It is alot easier to find a PG that can shoot well, but it is alot harder to find a PG that has the IQ level of a Andre Miller.

Calderon is the 3rd option on this team, while Miller is the 4th/5th option. I'm sure if Miller had to be the 3rd option on the 76ers, then his stats would be right up there with Calderons.

IQ relates to decision making and Calderon does it better than anyone in the league. If Calderon had the best assist to turnover ratio in the league, he therefore makes the best decisions. How can you argue that miller makes better ones if he turns the ball over more? People need to stop being a homer and realize that a statement needs more than an opinion to be true!

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:15 AM
Calderon is definitely not a step up on Rondo and, Andre Miller. That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Either you don't watch much basketball or, your just not too smart because that comment is straight up ridiculous.

Hmm I am not sure how rondo can kill calderon when he cant even hit a jumper outside 10 feet.. How about you leave the convo and let the real discussion occur. Miller and Calderon is at least a closer argument. Rose or Rondo aint anywhere near the discussion!

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:21 AM
IQ relates to decision making and Calderon does it better than anyone in the league. If Calderon had the best assist to turnover ratio in the league, he therefore makes the best decisions. How can you argue that miller makes better ones if we turns the ball over more? People need to stop being a homer and realize that a statement needs more than an opinion to be true!

Yes I agree, I am being a homer because I think Andre Miller is better and i'm a 76ers fan, while you think Jose Calderon is better and your a Raptors fan!

That is probably the most hypocritical statement iv'e heard..

Also, let's remember people. Last year who did the 76ers have in the post to draw a double team to open up shots for everyone? Ya, noone.

Who did the Raptors have to draw double/triple teams? Some guy named Chris Bosh.

This helps out Calderon considering he is a shooter, a great one at that.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 11:25 AM
The difference is that Mile High Champ is using facts to back up his argument. Facts which you've failed to discredit.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:27 AM
Yes I agree, I am being a homer because I think Andre Miller is better and i'm a 76ers fan, while you think Jose Calderon is better and your a Raptors fan!

That is probably the most hypocritical statement iv'e heard..

Also, let's remember people. Last year who did the 76ers have in the post to draw a double team to open up shots for everyone? Ya, noone.

Who did the Raptors have to draw double/triple teams? Some guy named Chris Bosh.

This helps out Calderon considering he is a shooter, a great one at that.

Ok you ignored the statement I made about decision making. Calderon is better at making decisions on the basketball court, I have proof of that, its not opinion. Next time respond to the point made! The argument was not about double teams, it was about floor IQ and Calderon has one of the best in the league. He simply does not make mistakes. The only thing I think Miller is better than calderon at is his man to man defense.. thats it. Everything else is close or Calderon easily has the upper hand.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:29 AM
The difference is that Mile High Champ is using facts to back up his argument. Facts which you've failed to discredit.

Sometimes you have to look past the facts.

Kareem Abdul-Jabar has the most points in NBA history, but does that make him the best player in NBA history? Of course not, he's not even top 5.

So before going strickly off stats, it wont get you anywhere.

And don't try comparing stats so far this year, as Calderon is averaging over 7minutes per game more then Miller is, so your guys arguement we had last year about this with Calderon not playing enough minutes, well it's now for Miller.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:29 AM
Yes I agree, I am being a homer because I think Andre Miller is better and i'm a 76ers fan, while you think Jose Calderon is better and your a Raptors fan!

That is probably the most hypocritical statement iv'e heard..

Also, let's remember people. Last year who did the 76ers have in the post to draw a double team to open up shots for everyone? Ya, noone.


I know a lost argument when I see one... 76ers fans have offered nothing in terms of evidence to prove Miller is better. Sure lets ignore all the stats and base the whole argument on opinion. Thats a great way to resolve the argument!

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:31 AM
Ok you ignored the statement I made about decision making. Calderon is better at making decisions on the basketball court, I have proof of that, its not opinion. Next time respond to the point made! The argument was not about double teams, it was about floor IQ and Calderon has one of the best in the league. He simply does not make mistakes. The only thing I think Miller is better than calderon at is his man to man defense.. thats it. Everything else is close or Calderon easily has the upper hand.

No I didn't ignore that, well I did ignore it in writing my post, but because I had no arguement.

Although, turnovers tend to happen when your team is playing fast paced like the 76ers do, it just happens.

We average the most turnovers in the league as a whole team, however, we have lead by double digits in every game, and could easily be 4-0.

Again, stats are misleading. Turnovers yes are a bad thing, but when looking at it at a whole, it really isn't.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 11:32 AM
Sometimes you have to look past the facts.

Kareem Abdul-Jabar has the most points in NBA history, but does that make him the best player in NBA history? Of course not, he's not even top 5.

So before going strickly off stats, it wont get you anywhere.

And don't try comparing stats so far this year, as Calderon is averaging over 7minutes per game more then Miller is, so your guys arguement we had last year about this with Calderon not playing enough minutes, well it's now for Miller.

You logic is flawed. I didn't know there was a law which dictates one stat category is to determine who the greatest player of all-time is/was.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:34 AM
I know a lost argument when I see one... 76ers fans have offered nothing in terms of evidence to prove Miller is better. Sure lets ignore all the stats and base the whole argument on opinion. Thats a great way to resolve the argument!

I said earlier last night while argueing this, that I would rather have Andre Miller guiding my team then Jose Calderon. I never said Andre Miller was the better basketball PLAYER. Jose has a better shot, that's a huge part of basketball there. But the other things you can't teach, expierence, Andre Miller has.

This is a washed up arguement, I wont argue anymore because you say that all us 76ers fans are saying Andre Miller, but other people are accually saying Andre Miller is better too, while all of you Raptors fans are saying Jose Calderon but not many others are.

So by calling us homers that abit hypocritical, considering the majority of people in here that arn't Raptors/76ers fans are picking Andre Miller over Jose Calderon.

I'll end my arguement here

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:35 AM
Sometimes you have to look past the facts.

Kareem Abdul-Jabar has the most points in NBA history, but does that make him the best player in NBA history? Of course not, he's not even top 5.

I cant even get into this now. Jabar not top 5? Are you serious? How old are you. I don't even know where to start with that ridiculous statement.


So before going strickly off stats, it wont get you anywhere.

Get what anywhere, anyone who knows anything about basketball? I am not basing this off just stats. Its everything he does on the court. Every argument you have made that miller is better has been rebutted and beaten.


And don't try comparing stats so far this year, as Calderon is averaging over 7minutes per game more then Miller is, so your guys arguement we had last year about this with Calderon not playing enough minutes, well it's now for Miller.


I am basing this on what he is doing. Ever analyst has been saying miller played over his head last year. He stats are only probably going to get worse. His ppg will drop with Brand in the fold. Until Miller proves he can take care of the basketball better, this is not even an argument. PG's are on the floor to distribute the basketball and TAKE CARE OF THE BASKETBALL!

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:37 AM
The difference is that Mile High Champ is using facts to back up his argument. Facts which you've failed to discredit.



You logic is flawed. I didn't know there was a law which dictates one stat category is to determine who the greatest player of all-time is/was.

Thanks for answering your own question.

You just said to use facts to prove my point, and I just used a fact to prove my point.

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar has more points then Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olujuon.

How isn't he better then them? He has more points!

You just dug yourself a hole

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:38 AM
No I didn't ignore that, well I did ignore it in writing my post, but because I had no arguement.

Although, turnovers tend to happen when your team is playing fast paced like the 76ers do, it just happens.

We average the most turnovers in the league as a whole team, however, we have lead by double digits in every game, and could easily be 4-0.

Again, stats are misleading. Turnovers yes are a bad thing, but when looking at it at a whole, it really isn't.

The two deciding factors that determine most often if you win the game are free throws missed and turnovers. With Miller shooting under 75% from the charity stripe and only averaging 2 assists per one turnover does not make for a great pg. Calderon was considered for the allstar team last year. Was Miller? No he was not.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:41 AM
I said earlier last night while argueing this, that I would rather have Andre Miller guiding my team then Jose Calderon. I never said Andre Miller was the better basketball PLAYER. Jose has a better shot, that's a huge part of basketball there. But the other things you can't teach, expierence, Andre Miller has.

This is a washed up arguement, I wont argue anymore because you say that all us 76ers fans are saying Andre Miller, but other people are accually saying Andre Miller is better too, while all of you Raptors fans are saying Jose Calderon but not many others are.

So by calling us homers that abit hypocritical, considering the majority of people in here that arn't Raptors/76ers fans are picking Andre Miller over Jose Calderon.

I'll end my arguement here

You saying I WOULD RATHER HAVE Miller over Calderon is not an argument. Just a statement. There was nothing offered by you to prove miller was better. Just what you see on the court and can't explain in a post. If you want to argue something, have something to bring to the table and not just statements that offer nothing to give credibility to what you are trying to prove.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:44 AM
I cant even get into this now. Jabar not top 5? Are you serious? How old are you. I don't even know where to start with that ridiculous statement.

Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell are all ahead of him. Ok, I can place him at #4, but with an arguement for him not to be there. Those 3 guys are clearly better then him, no arguements.. And i'm 16, which is irrelevant to this if your not old enough to see him play. Trust me, i've seen the guy play, maybe not live, but I have seen him play.



Get what anywhere, anyone who knows anything about basketball? I am not basing this off just stats. Its everything he does on the court. Every argument you have made that miller is better has been rebutted and beaten.
I never said Miller is the better PLAYER, i'm saying I would rather have Miller on my team leading it. All the arguements are for that sole reason only. You can have Jose, i'll take Andre and his expierence.



I am basing this on what he is doing. Ever analyst has been saying miller played over his head last year. He stats are only probably going to get worse. His ppg will drop with Brand in the fold. Until Miller proves he can take care of the basketball better, this is not even an argument. PG's are on the floor to distribute the basketball and TAKE CARE OF THE BASKETBALL!

That means alot, because everyone predicted this years world series. Like Peter Gammons and Jayson Stark and..

Wait, noone did. Again, horrible arguement.

Oh and yes, his stats are going to get worse. He's the #4/#5 option on the 76ers, while Calderon is the #3 option. What a dumb statement. The beneficiary of the Elton Brand trade was for Thaddeus Young and Samuel Dalembert, and looking at there stats from last year you can see why. Like I said earlier, turnovers happen when your team is playing at such a fast pace as the 76ers play.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Thanks for answering your own question.

You just said to use facts to prove my point, and I just used a fact to prove my point.

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar has more points then Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olujuon.

How isn't he better then them? He has more points!

You just dug yourself a hole

No I didn't. No one is saying that Jose is better than Andre because Jose scores more points. Your argument is one dimensional. They're saying he's a better point guard because he turns the ball over less, he dishes out more dimes, shoots higher FT%, higher FG%, higher 3Pt% AND he scores more points.

With the stats people have presented other things such as how clutch he is, how he's a better defender and so on...

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Thanks for answering your own question.

You just said to use facts to prove my point, and I just used a fact to prove my point.

Kareem Abdul-Jabaar has more points then Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olujuon.

How isn't he better then them? He has more points!

You just dug yourself a hole

Actually its not based on just his points. Its based on the fact that he is.

A 6 Time NBA champion
a 6 Time MVP winner
19 allstar teams
2 Finals MVP's
10 all first team nba selections
5 Times all defensive team
3rd all time in blocks
3rd all time in rebounds
1st all time in points.

Looks like your argument just blew up in your face...

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:51 AM
Actually its not based on just his points. Its based on the fact that he is.

A 6 Time NBA champion
a 6 Time MVP winner
19 allstar teams
2 Finals MVP's
10 all first team nba selections
5 Times all defensive team
3rd all time in blocks
3rd all time in rebounds
1st all time in points.

Looks like your argument just blew up in your face...

Are you serious? You would rather have him then Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, or Wilt Chamberlain?

Wow..

Dont get me wrong, he's a great player, but those numbers are skewed abit considering he was in the league for 20 years while Jordan was in it for around 15 years, Russell for 13, and Chamberlain for 15 years.

Jabbarr has 5 or more years on each player.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 11:53 AM
Miller is great but Calderon is better. Miller can't even shoot as good as Calderon and Calderon racks up a lotta assists and barely any T.Oz. Miller is great but Calderon is better and can only get better. Miller is on the decline. He may be the best in the East cause we don't really have that many good PGs. And 4 any1 saying AIz name he is a SG every1 knoz that

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 11:54 AM
I think it is disappointing whenever race came up in this thread. Let's not insult Canadians or Americans people. You would think after a day like yesterday people would be more willing to put that kind of close mindedness on the shelves. Next person I see insulting somebody because of what country they come from, is getting at least an infraction if not a ban.

Now for some other comments:


Rondo led a championship team whether you disagree or not. Giving the ball to 3 guys won't beat the Lakers. If took everyone especially Rondo and Perkins.
I do disagree. Rondo is great but KG, Pierce, Ray and PJ were the leaders on that that team. If you want to make arguments about talent that is one thing but don't act like Rondo was the leader on that team.


Calderon is good but, Rajon Rondo is better. Wait til they match up. Rondo will burn him and, pick his pocket all day. I seen him do it to Tony Parker and Andre Miller.
Are you saying that Rondo is better than Tony Parker? I don't want to de-rail this thread but that is what it sounds like right here. :speechless:

Also I can't believe the disrespect Raptors fans are giving Andre Miller. He is a great PG and plays a lot better D then Jose. Maybe once Jose gets his D up to Andre's level then you can consider him the easy choice but until then, it is not an easy choice.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 11:55 AM
And i would take Kareem. Take out Wilt because his level of competition kinda sucked. And next 2 Jordan its a matter of what position you want. Kareem is the best big man EVER and Jordan is the best wing man EVER

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:58 AM
I think it is disappointing whenever race came up in this thread. Let's not insult Canadians or Americans people. You would think after a day like yesterday people would be more willing to put that kind of close mindedness on the shelves. Next person I see insulting somebody because of what country they come from, is getting at least an infraction if not a ban.

Now for some other comments:


I do disagree. Rondo is great but KG, Pierce, Ray and PJ were the leaders on that that team. If you want to make arguments about talent that is one thing but don't act like Rondo was the leader on that team.


Are you saying that Rondo is better than Tony Parker? I don't want to de-rail this thread but that is what it sounds like right here. :speechless:

Also I can't believe the disrespect Raptors fans are giving Andre Miller. He is a great PG and plays a lot better D then Jose. Maybe once Jose gets his D up to Andre's level then you can consider him the easy choice but until then, it is not an easy choice.

Who was bringing race into the issue? :pity:

and atleast you understand that it's close, everyone is making it like Jose has every stat and it's not even close.

I said it before, it's a tossup. I would rather have Miller guiding my team then Jose, what's wrong with that? Both are great PG's you can't go wrong with either, but all in all i'll take Andre

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 11:58 AM
Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell are all ahead of him. Ok, I can place him at #4, but with an arguement for him not to be there. Those 3 guys are clearly better then him, narguements.. And i'm 16, which is irrelevant to this if your not old enough to see him play. Trust me, i've seen the guy play, maybe not live, but I have seen him play.

Your 16! Youtube videos and a few hardwood classic games does not mean you have seen him play. Again its all opinion you are offering. Why are those 3 so much better? You are entitled to your own opinion but it don't make it true.


I never said Miller is the better PLAYER, i'm saying I would rather have Miller on my team leading it. All the arguements are for that sole reason only. You can have Jose, i'll take Andre and his expierence.


The question is who is the best pg in the east. You said you would rather have miller to lead your team. Thats not the question.


That means alot, because everyone predicted this years world series. Like Peter Gammons and Jayson Stark and..

Wait, noone did. Again, horrible arguement.

A different sport and your talking about picking a champion and I am discussing a player and his likely hood to regressing this season. Last year Miller played over his head. Everyone knows it. I think John Hollinger of espn who gets payed to have his opinion printed has more credibility than a high school student like yourself. Sorry its true. Miller last season set career highs in points per game and field goal percentage. Prior to last year he never broke 48% shooting from the floor. His assists last year were below 7.


Oh and yes, his stats are going to get worse. He's the #4/#5 option on the 76ers, while Calderon is the #3 option. What a dumb statement. The beneficiary of the Elton Brand trade was for Thaddeus Young and Samuel Dalembert, and looking at there stats from last year you can see why. Like I said earlier, turnovers happen when your team is playing at such a fast pace as the 76ers play.


Miller is the 2nd option. He has attempted the 2nd most shots this season on the 76ers team. How does that make him the 4th or 5th option on the floor? Don't go off course here, the 76ers don't play anywhere near the pace of the Old Suns,Last years Nuggets and Warriors.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 11:58 AM
I think it is disappointing whenever race came up in this thread. Let's not insult Canadians or Americans people. You would think after a day like yesterday people would be more willing to put that kind of close mindedness on the shelves. Next person I see insulting somebody because of what country they come from, is getting at least an infraction if not a ban.

Now for some other comments:


I do disagree. Rondo is great but KG, Pierce, Ray and PJ were the leaders on that that team. If you want to make arguments about talent that is one thing but don't act like Rondo was the leader on that team.


Are you saying that Rondo is better than Tony Parker? I don't want to de-rail this thread but that is what it sounds like right here. :speechless:

Also I can't believe the disrespect Raptors fans are giving Andre Miller. He is a great PG and plays a lot better D then Jose. Maybe once Jose gets his D up to Andre's level then you can consider him the easy choice but until then, it is not an easy choice.




Miller is better defensively but i think overall Calderon is better.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 11:59 AM
And i would take Kareem. Take out Wilt because his level of competition kinda sucked. And next 2 Jordan its a matter of what position you want. Kareem is the best big man EVER and Jordan is the best wing man EVER

I respect that, but i'll take Russell and Chamberlain over em'. Don't get me wrong, Kareem is one of the best ever, no disrespect, but Russell and Chamberlain i'd rather have.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 12:01 PM
Who was bringing race into the issue? :pity:

One guy made some insulting remarks about Canadians and a couple of people said that people weren't voting for Jose because he wasn't American. I think that kind of talk has no place in here.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 12:02 PM
Miller is better defensively but i think overall Calderon is better.

Agreed, i said it earlier. I think miller is a better on the ball defender and probably a better post up pg on the block. Other than that its Calderon. You can't ignore every statistic in this argument. Its Calderon.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:02 PM
I respect that, but i'll take Russell and Chamberlain over em'. Don't get me wrong, Kareem is one of the best ever, no disrespect, but Russell and Chamberlain i'd rather have.

But why?? lol its your opinion i respect that but can you gimme a good reason? hey i might take your case lol.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 12:04 PM
Are you serious? You would rather have him then Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, or Wilt Chamberlain?

Wow..

Dont get me wrong, he's a great player, but those numbers are skewed abit considering he was in the league for 20 years while Jordan was in it for around 15 years, Russell for 13, and Chamberlain for 15 years.

Jabbarr has 5 or more years on each player.

Your going to discredit jabar because he had longevity to keep playing in the league? I did not know that we should penalize a player for playing the full 20 years. Jabar is top 3 easily.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:08 PM
look at the poll man 36 calderon 6 miller. Even som1 who isn't playing (Arenas) got 1 more vote than him.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 12:09 PM
Your 16! Youtube videos and a few hardwood classic games does not mean you have seen him play. Again its all opinion you are offering. Why are those 3 so much better? You are entitled to your own opinion but it don't make it true.

Yes, you should be ashamed your argueing with a 16 year old! :pity:
And even if your 30 right now let's say, you got to see Kareem play at age 10 at the end of his career. And for arguements sake i'll guess your less then 30, if not my bad.



The question is who is the best pg in the east. You said you would rather have miller to lead your team. Thats not the question.

Who said that stats were the only thing that mattered? Ever here of the things that "dont show up on the boxscore"

.


A different sport and your talking about picking a champion and I am discussing a player and his likely hood to regressing this season. Last year Miller played over his head. Everyone knows it. I think John Hollinger of espn who gets payed to have his opinion printed has more credibility than a high school student like yourself. Sorry its true. Miller last season set career highs in points per game and field goal percentage. Prior to last year he never broke 48% shooting from the floor. His assists last year were below 7.

Why would you be sorry? Ofcourse he has more credibility then I do or anyone does, but it doens't mean he's right. I could make a prediction, and he could make a prediction, and mine could be right, he could be wrong.



Miller is the 2nd option. He has attempted the 2nd most shots this season on the 76ers team. How does that make him the 4th or 5th option on the floor? Don't go off course here, the 76ers don't play anywhere near the pace of the Old Suns,Last years Nuggets and Warriors.

The 76ers were right up there with the Nuggets/Warriors last year. They are an incredibly fast paced team. And yes, he's the 4th/5th option behind Brand/Igoudala/Young. He's getting more oppurtunites because of less minutes by Young, and Iggy struggling so much this season. Really when it's all said and done he's the 3rd option at best, 4th option really though.

rico
11-05-2008, 12:09 PM
i'll give it to jose as of right now...

before the season even started i rated rose to be on par with a current rondo.. so wait a couple years and rose will be :) (no homer just honest)

credit to rondo tho him and rose have a jason kidd like ability to pull off triple doubles in rebs, assists, points.. not many pg's have that ability.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 12:11 PM
Your going to discredit jabar because he had longevity to keep playing in the league? I did not know that we should penalize a player for playing the full 20 years. Jabar is top 3 easily.

No of course not, but your showing the number of awards he's gotten, and all i'm saying is that Russell/Chamberlain would have gotten that too if they played 20 years each. 7 years and 5 years less is ALOT.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:15 PM
Can i make a point though. I'm a youngin 2 and i don't think age has 2 do with it. We do our research!!

cmoneytakemoney
11-05-2008, 12:18 PM
Calderon's stats show that he's more efficient than any other PG in the east at scoring. He has the best assist to turnover ratio since John Stockton like 15 years ago....And maybe that doesn't quite do it justice., let me break it down for you guys who don't seem to appreciate assist to turnover ratio. Last season Calderon was the best in that category at 5.38; as I said, the best since JOHN STOCKTON. Next best who played more than 30 minutes a game? Chris Paul at 4.6...Billups wasat 3.31...Roy was at 3.16...D Will was at 3.09...Jose's teammate TJ Ford, who is ALSO better than most of the guys mentioned in here, at 3.05.........Ooooooon down the list was Andrea Miller with 2.74. Pretty close to half that of Jose Calderon.

For ever 5 assists Jose will turn the ball over once. Thats unheard of in the league today and the only guy who comes close is Chris Paul.



Again? What are you basing this on? How Jose raped Rondo last season? It wasn't even close when he played Toronto last season. Both Jose and TJ had their way with him.



I just got a message from one of the mods who said LD V2.0 created 20 something accounts to keep boosting the votes on this thread for Calderon. LOL. That is sad. Get a life.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:19 PM
^^ wait are you serious?

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:20 PM
One guy made some insulting remarks about Canadians and a couple of people said that people weren't voting for Jose because he wasn't American. I think that kind of talk has no place in here.

I agree. Everybody needs to think this before they speak: what would Obama do? :D


I just got a message from one of the mods who said LD V2.0 created 20 something accounts to keep boosting the votes on this thread for Calderon. LOL. That is sad. Get a life.

I don't know what they call that in America but in Canada we call that libel...And I'm thinking it'll run you an infraction. Stick with the truth. Would a mod be so kind as to point out the the good people in here that this man is full of it?

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:23 PM
39.7mpg 34 shots .500% 6-10 3's .600% 14-14 FT 1.000% 4.0 rpg 1.00 spg .00 bpg 2.67 TO 2.67 fouls 9.7 assists 18.0 ppg

43% on 51 shots 92% free throws 12/13 4.3 rpg .5 spg .4 bpg 1.25 TO 3 fouls 6.5 aspg 14 ppg in 32 minutes

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 12:23 PM
Yes, you should be ashamed your argueing with a 16 year old! :pity:
And even if your 30 right now let's say, you got to see Kareem play at age 10 at the end of his career. And for arguements sake i'll guess your less then 30, if not my bad.


I am not saying that you are not intelligent about the nba but your age limits your ability really discuss players that playerd 30-40 years before you were even born. See my point here... A few hard wood classic games that showcased only the players best games are not a true indication to the ability of the player. Its juts a bias. Because like yourself, I was not around when Jabar was in his prime. I have to rely on the stats and interpretations from what i have heard from people who saw him and the clips I have seen myself.


Who said that stats were the only thing that mattered? Ever here of the things that "dont show up on the boxscore"

Like what hustle? Sure both guys hustle. The way miller get Iggy a water bottle in the huddle? Stats are crucial to determining a players worth. Thats how the contracts are decided each year.
.

Why would you be sorry? Ofcourse he has more credibility then I do or anyone does, but it doens't mean he's right. I could make a prediction, and he could make a prediction, and mine could be right, he could be wrong.

Your right it does not mean he is right. But his opinion holds stronger weight because of his position. Again its not predictions we are discussing here. Its alluding to the facts of his stats and why he is likely to decline this season. Miller is 32 years old. Many pg's dont enter their prime in their early 30's, sure there are exceptions but all signs point to Miller having a worse season than last year.


The 76ers were right up there with the Nuggets/Warriors last year. They are an incredibly fast paced team. And yes, he's the 4th/5th option behind Brand/Igoudala/Young. He's getting more oppurtunites because of less minutes by Young, and Iggy struggling so much this season. Really when it's all said and done he's the 3rd option at best, 4th option really though.

The 76ers were not the suns or the warriors of the east in terms of scoring. Phili last year was 23rd in the league in points per game. That hardly alludes to the type of play you are talking about. Phili does not play an up tempo offense. Miller always will be the 2nd or 3rd option on the 76ers. I gurantee miller has the 3rd most shots attempted this year on the 76ers behind Iggy and Brand.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:24 PM
If it counts 4 anything Millers stats are based on 4 games and Calderons on 3

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:27 PM
Miller has taken 51 shots, Iguodala 42, Brand 58 So miller is the 2nd option so far



Bosh 50, Oneal 35, Calderon 34, Parker 31 Calderon is 3rd Option

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 12:27 PM
I just got a message from one of the mods who said LD V2.0 created 20 something accounts to keep boosting the votes on this thread for Calderon. LOL. That is sad. Get a life.

I really doubt that. I will believe LD considering he has over 14,000 posts and has been around the board for a while. Dont stir **** up!

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:27 PM
but again i say Calderons played 3 games miller 4 but you get the idea.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:28 PM
I really doubt that. I will believe LD considering he has over 14,000 posts and has been around the board for a while. Dont stir **** up!

Yea i looked at how many posts he has and i doubt he has THAT much free time to make over 20

nstojic
11-05-2008, 12:28 PM
Yes, you should be ashamed your argueing with a 16 year old! :pity:
And even if your 30 right now let's say, you got to see Kareem play at age 10 at the end of his career. And for arguements sake i'll guess your less then 30, if not my bad. .

shouldn't you be in school right now? or home on lunch break, jackin' it to hannah montana?





Who said that stats were the only thing that mattered? Ever here of the things that "dont show up on the boxscore".

yes, and it's allll those wonderful intangibles that make him an 'untouchable' for his team... wait, hasn't he been bounced around like 4 teams?

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:30 PM
shouldn't you be in school right now? or home on lunch break, jackin' it to hannah montana?






yes, and it's allll those wonderful intangibles that make him an 'untouchable' for his team... wait, hasn't he been bounced around like 4 teams?



Doesn't mean cuz he's young he doesn't deserve respect. If your older than grow up and show some respect age doesn't matter here.

Nexus
11-05-2008, 12:31 PM
Oh yeah, Damm cocky.

He is so cocky than last year when TJ was moaning and groaning and disturbing the team chemistry because he wasnt starting, he went to Mitchell and said it woudl be ok to bench him in order to restore Team Chemistry.

ON HIS CONTRACT YEAR!!!!

Not to mention passing out Gatorades to his teammates during every half time.

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, Calderon wouldn't want me to. Calderon would tell me to tell you to vote Miller into the allstar game.

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:32 PM
Not to mention passing out Gatorades to his teammates during every half time.

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, Calderon wouldn't want me to. Calderon would tell me to tell you to vote Miller into the allstar game.

LoL

nstojic
11-05-2008, 12:34 PM
Doesn't mean cuz he's young he doesn't deserve respect. If your older than grow up and show some respect age doesn't matter here.

true but i can't respect it when people go all out for an argument with little to support it, other than opinion... sure, he loves miller over calderon.. fine.. but when someone says the opposite or asks why, have something tangible ready to support it

$ NyC $
11-05-2008, 12:35 PM
That's cool i get your point but where does jackin it 2 hanna montana have 2 do with any means of bball? Does the wrist action help your jumper?

xxepo
11-05-2008, 12:35 PM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

Miller haahhaha I love philly fans honestly thats one of the most dumbest things I heard today .

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 12:39 PM
shouldn't you be in school right now? or home on lunch break, jackin' it to hannah montana?

Should not you be in school right now? or home on lunch break, jackin' it to hannah montana?

Your right, YOU should be in school right now



yes, and it's allll those wonderful intangibles that make him an 'untouchable' for his team... wait, hasn't he been bounced around like 4 teams?

Sometimes when trading for a top 5 player in the NBA like Iverson was a few years ago, you have to give up a player in return.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:41 PM
...You guys are gonna get my thread shut down. I can see it coming a mile away. :rolleyes:

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 12:42 PM
Philly Diehard, I am still waiting to a response to the points I made. I think its easier for you if you just admit you have no argument here to backup.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 12:46 PM
I just got a message from one of the mods who said LD V2.0 created 20 something accounts to keep boosting the votes on this thread for Calderon. LOL. That is sad. Get a life.

A complete lie. I recognize most of the names who voted for Jose and any mod who didn't would be able to see with an IP check that it is completely untrue. Making up lies like this makes you lose any creditibility you might have had. Please try to stick to the issues of this debate.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 12:56 PM
Philly Diehard, I am still waiting to a response to the points I made. I think its easier for you if you just admit you have no argument here to backup.

I already said iv'e stopped argueing about this issue. It's pointless, were not going to change our prespecitive on this, it's just a waste of time.

Fact of the matter is, 76ers fans will pick Miller, Raptors fans will pick Calderon.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 12:58 PM
I already said iv'e stopped argueing about this issue. It's pointless, were not going to change our prespecitive on this, it's just a waste of time.

Fact of the matter is, 76ers fans will pick Miller, Raptors fans will pick Calderon.

Exactly and most of everybody outside those two groups are picking Calderon as well.

Ph1lly Diehard
11-05-2008, 01:00 PM
Exactly and most of everybody outside those two groups are picking Calderon as well.

If you look back it's about even.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 01:01 PM
If you look back it's about even.

If you look at the poll it is not close at all.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 01:11 PM
If you look at the poll it is not close at all.

I haven't looked hard at the list of people who voted but I think he might be right. If you take Raptors fans out of the Jose and 76er fans out of Miller then it could be a close vote because really your question is "Is Jose the best?" So I would add up all the other categories and put them against Jose's numbers.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 01:15 PM
I haven't looked hard at the list of people who voted but I think he might be right. If you take Raptors fans out of the Jose and 76er fans out of Miller then it could be a close vote because really your question is "Is Jose the best?" So I would add up all the other categories and put them against Jose's numbers.

I've looked at the list of 40 people who voted for Jose and I'm not so sure if even 20 of them are "Raptors fans".

J-Relo
11-05-2008, 01:33 PM
I think Jose Calderon is the best playmaker in the East, but is he best overall point guard? Maybe, there is still way to go in this season, if Gilbert will make smth asin his 06/07 season then watch out...

sportsnutzz
11-05-2008, 01:50 PM
So far this season it has to go to Calderon. Gilbert would probably win but the problem is I am not voting on a player who never seems to be healthy. Miller's shooting will always hold him back a little. Plus he is only averaging 6.5 APG this year......:confused:

Kaptain Kanada
11-05-2008, 02:23 PM
This is getting to be a silly argument... fans vs fans.... not really any substance left here.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 02:27 PM
I've looked at the list of 40 people who voted for Jose and I'm not so sure if even 20 of them are "Raptors fans".

I recognize over 20 of them as Raptors fans and by my last count 25 of them are Raptors fans.

ink
11-05-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't really care if he's the best or not. If he makes the All Star team this year, great.

cmellofan15
11-05-2008, 03:01 PM
Does All-Star team make you the best? IDK but no Calderon is not. Miller is better because of his expirience, passing skill, and basketball IQ. The only bad decisions he makes is when he shoots 3's

pebloemer
11-05-2008, 03:04 PM
This is getting to be a silly argument... fans vs fans.... not really any substance left here.

I agree.

Although the poll question is very interesting. I would love to see more names on the list however. Maybe a thread change stating "Who is the best PG in the East now that Billups is gone?" would be more appropriate and depart for the fans vs. fans debate.

ink
11-05-2008, 03:12 PM
I agree.

Although the poll question is very interesting. I would love to see more names on the list however. Maybe a thread change stating "Who is the best PG in the East now that Billups is gone?" would be more appropriate and depart for the fans vs. fans debate.

I like that idea. Does anyone have any objections to the suggested thread title?

nolin
11-05-2008, 03:15 PM
By season's end Rose will be better then both of them so this thread is stupid!

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 03:20 PM
By season's end Rose will be better then both of them so this thread is stupid!

why? Is it the end of the season already? I don't think it is so I think it is a valid question right now.

$KnicksAndKobe$
11-05-2008, 03:26 PM
Iverson will be the Pistons PG ...

nolin
11-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Iverson is better then calderon and miller.

nstojic
11-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Iverson will be the Pistons PG ...

i've never liked that argument.. it's like sticking lebron at the one 1 and saying lebron is the best PG in the nba... hahaha... AI's a SG...

nstojic
11-05-2008, 03:35 PM
Iverson is better then calderon and miller.

exactly... take the positions out of it and yes, iverson is the best basketball player of the three...

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 03:36 PM
I think he is the best PG in the east. If I needed a PG that will get the team Involved that already had scoring options, I would take Calderon, he gets the ball where it needs to go, makes other players better, and will score within the flow of the game. AI and Gilbert are only PGs because they are to small for SG, they have the game and skill set of a SG.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 03:40 PM
Does All-Star team make you the best? IDK but no Calderon is not. Miller is better because of his expirience, passing skill, and basketball IQ. The only bad decisions he makes is when he shoots 3's

Hmm I will say this again...

IQ relates to decision making and Calderon does it better than anyone in the league. If Calderon had the best assist to turnover ratio in the league, he therefore makes the best decisions. How can you argue that miller makes better ones if he turns the ball over more? People need to realize that a statement needs more than an opinion to be true!

mrblisterdundee
11-05-2008, 03:41 PM
Allen Iverson might be a combo guard, but he can and does average more points, assists, and steals than Jose. I'm pretty sure that makes him better than any point guard in the east.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 03:44 PM
I agree.

Although the poll question is very interesting. I would love to see more names on the list however. Maybe a thread change stating "Who is the best PG in the East now that Billups is gone?" would be more appropriate and depart for the fans vs. fans debate.

The thing is that the "other" option doesn't have half as many votes as the Jose Calderon option.

Mile High Champ
11-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Allen Iverson might be a combo guard, but he can and does average more points, assists, and steals than Jose. I'm pretty sure that makes him better than any point guard in the east.

Iverson averaged less assists per game last year, turned the ball over 3 times a game, shot a lower free throw and field goal percentage. Steals don't prove anything. Iverson is not a great on the ball defender, all he does is play the passing lanes.. means nothing... Plus Iverson will always be a SG!

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 03:48 PM
Allen Iverson might be a combo guard, but he can and does average more points, assists, and steals than Jose. I'm pretty sure that makes him better than any point guard in the east.

Not this year. Jose averages 18ppg and AI 18.7 and Jose averages 3 more assists a game. Jose is also a better floor general and that is what a PG is suppose to do. They both average 1 steal a game.

nolin
11-05-2008, 03:51 PM
i've never liked that argument.. it's like sticking lebron at the one 1 and saying lebron is the best PG in the nba... hahaha... AI's a SG...

Then why have arenas on the list? Iverson is just as much of a pg as arenas.

nolin
11-05-2008, 03:54 PM
Not this year. Jose averages 18ppg and AI 18.7 and Jose averages 3 more assists a game. Jose is also a better floor general and that is what a PG is suppose to do. They both average 1 steal a game.

Its 3 or 4 games into the season!

ink
11-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Its 3 or 4 games into the season!

Exactly.

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Its 3 or 4 games into the season!

And? We are talking about this year, Iverson was not in the east last year, so you fail.

nstojic
11-05-2008, 03:58 PM
Then why have arenas on the list? Iverson is just as much of a pg as arenas.

haha it's not MY list... i agree, arenas is a SG playing point...

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 04:12 PM
He may not be a prototypical PG but he's always played PG, he's always listed on depth charts at the point. If his coach calls him a PG then he's a PG.

deaner
11-05-2008, 04:22 PM
stats dont mean everything...calderon plays more then miller and miller is the sixers 4th or 5th scoring option, while calderon is the raptors 3rd. millers backup is lou williams, while calderons is some rookie, so you cant look at stats. calderon is cocky as ****, and isnt the leader miller is. id take miller over calderon anyday

lol.... stats are only half the reason why Jose is better than Miller. I started looking back at head to head stats.... you can go back if you want. Which one am I to be impressed with? Miller's preseason showing of 1 for 10, or the regular season against Jose or the 6 for 16???? At least he knows he sucks from 3 pt and doesn't even bother.

Miller was the one with more minutes. Please do your research before you speak. If you want to say "you like Miller's game better, or you like the way Miller wears his shorts".... that's fine.. but when you say Miller IS better than Jose... you are very wrong.

NYMetros
11-05-2008, 04:38 PM
Iverson is definitely a PG. He runs the offense, brings the ball up the court, passes it, penetrates, does all the stuff a PG is supposed to do. People only think he's a SG because of his great jump shot, so all the other great areas of his game get drowned out.

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 04:42 PM
Iverson is definitely a PG. He runs the offense, brings the ball up the court, passes it, penetrates, does all the stuff a PG is supposed to do. People only think he's a SG because of his great jump shot, so all the other great areas of his game get drowned out.

Yeah, his jumpshot is not great, he just takes a lot of them.

jaysfan4ever
11-05-2008, 05:11 PM
you guys knock calderon because he doesn't score a lot, which is pretty funny really. His FG% is better than 50% due to an extremely consistent jump shot, and a deceptive first step that allows him to get to the basket. He shoots almost 50% from 3, and shoots 90% from the FT line, which is evidence of an extremely consistent jump shot, which I've seen on numerous occasions. Granted, Arenas & Iverson are better scorers.

However, his best skill is taking care of the basketball, which is a PG's primary job. His assist : turnover ratio was phenomenal last season (8.3A : 1.5TO). He is a true distributor, even though he doesn't have the blinding speed of an Allen Iverson or Rajon Rondo. He just gets the job done. I'd say he's definitely the best in the East at managing a game now that Billups is gone. I consider Calderon to be about equal to Billups in taking care of the basketball, but Billups is better, because he knows how to step his game up when the game is on the line, and I think Billups is the better defender.

In the other secondary aspects of the game, Calderon is still solid, with decent defence, as well as very good leadership qualities, and an unselfish attitude. IMO Calderon is definitely the best all-round PG in the East, cuz he has no flaws... he literally does everything well. He might not have any particular athletic ability that is elite, but he is definitely near the top in his decision-making ability, which allows him to control the flow of the offense, which is a point guards primary job.

Miller is a similar player, but Calderon just does practically everything a bit better than Miller does, so there's really no comparison. AI & Gilbert are too selfish to be as good of a PG as Calderon, as that overshadows their scoring prowess.

JOSETHEALLSTAR
11-05-2008, 05:17 PM
Gilbert Arenas

23LBJCleBrowns
11-05-2008, 05:22 PM
Mo Williams Anybody?

Ragun
11-05-2008, 05:23 PM
I think iv'e heard of that guy somewhere, doesn't he play for the Bobcats?

Also, IQ I mean in knowing where your teammates going to be at all times, making the best move at that time etc.

Expierence helps your IQ
Uh same with calderon...

Macedonian
11-05-2008, 05:39 PM
Jose Calderon 63 votes
Andre Miller 9 votes
Gilbert Arenas 11 votes
Other 24 votes

Calderon vs. Others 63:44 :)

rhino17
11-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Allen iverson

Macedonian
11-05-2008, 05:44 PM
I haven't looked hard at the list of people who voted but I think he might be right. If you take Raptors fans out of the Jose and 76er fans out of Miller then it could be a close vote because really your question is "Is Jose the best?" So I would add up all the other categories and put them against Jose's numbers."Is Jose the best?" is the title of the thread, and the poll question is "Who is the best PG in the Eastern Conference?"... This is not yes/no question!

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 05:45 PM
Mo Williams Anybody?

:yawn: ...Did it just get really quiet in here?...


"Is Jose the best?" is the title of the thread, and the poll question is "Who is the best PG in the Eastern Conference?"... This is not yes/no question!

Eaaaaaasy there Mace, I didn't mean to rattle you. You can check the box that is labeled with Jose's name and that will be your "yes" vote.


64 votes for Jose. Nice.

viniciusdcs
11-05-2008, 05:51 PM
Jose is the best point guard in the East, he can run a team better than anyone else in the East, but Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas are overall better players because of their scoring ability.

This shows how much better point guards the West has, CP3, D-Will, Steve Nash are all above Calderon.

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 05:56 PM
"Is Jose the best?" is the title of the thread, and the poll question is "Who is the best PG in the Eastern Conference?"... This is not yes/no question!

Good point, you got me there.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 06:02 PM
Jose is the best point guard in the East, he can run a team better than anyone else in the East, but Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas are overall better players because of their scoring ability.

This shows how much better point guards the West has, CP3, D-Will, Steve Nash are all above Calderon.

For now. I'm not suggesting Jose will pass Paul or D-Will but he should pass Nash soon, as in the next few years. Nash is getting up there in age. Time is not on his side.

cubbybear2290
11-05-2008, 06:05 PM
Call me a homer or w/e but D-Rose is already arguably the best PG in the east. Simply put he has nothing and i mean noting around hiim. He dishes and drives, and can get the contact almost every time down. Too bad taht when he dishes we dont have the SF to make a knockdown shot, the only other reliable consistent shooter the bulls have is KH12 and he is the 6th man as of right now.

LD V2.0
11-05-2008, 06:06 PM
Call me a homer or w/e but D-Rose is already arguably the best PG in the east. Simply put he has nothing and i mean noting around hiim. He dishes and drives, and can get the contact almost every time down. Too bad taht when he dishes we dont have the SF to make a knockdown shot, the only other reliable consistent shooter the bulls have is KH12 and he is the 6th man as of right now.

Yeah because Luol Deng and Ben Gordon aren't known for scoring. :rolleyes:

Nets fan 93
11-05-2008, 06:12 PM
AI he will be playing PG for the Pistons

BullsNumber1Fan
11-05-2008, 06:15 PM
How about a opinion outside of Philly, Toronto. Calderon is better than any other PG for THIS year because Arenas is injured and AI is a SG. Next year, Arenas & Rose will be better. Sure call me a homer, I don't really care but if you've seen Rose play, you'll see I am correct.

CALDERON IS THE BEST PG IN THE EAST THIS YEAR!!

Bob_at_york
11-05-2008, 06:23 PM
Yeah because Luol Deng and Ben Gordon aren't known for scoring. :rolleyes:

Not this year. The Bulls are shooting a pathetic percentage so far. I think Luol even had a game where he was scoreless or something. I am not saying Rose is better just that the Bulls are playing horribly offensively right now.

viniciusdcs
11-05-2008, 06:27 PM
For now. I'm not suggesting Jose will pass Paul or D-Will but he should pass Nash soon, as in the next few years. Nash is getting up there in age. Time is not on his side.
Yeah, he should pass Nash soon, but for now I still think that Nash is a better PG, and Tony Parker is in the same level as Calderon.

The Sixer's fans arguments are pretty ridiculous,

Miller:
better defender (Calderon is decent, but Miller is still better)
better post player

Calderon:
Much better shooter
Better floor general since he takes care of the ball so well, always makes the right decision.

They both have great passing skills, but Calderon is just a better decision maker, he takes the right shots at the right time, great passer, and rarely turns the ball over.

The whole "Miller is our 4th-5th options while Calderon is your 3rd" is BS since Miller takes more shots than Calderon.

The "Miller has more experience and b-ball IQ" argument is flawed as well. Sure Miller is older, but so far all he did was bounce around in numerous mediocre teams through his career, Calderon is 27 years old, has led Spain for years including a world championship, has plenty of European experience, and plenty of NBA experience as well including 2 playoff appearances.

Calderon also has a much higher IQ, because as other members have proved he takes better care of the ball, and makes better decisions for the team.

So yeah, overall Calderon is a better Point Guard than Andre Miller. Rondo, and Rose are not in the same level as them yet.

Iverson and Arenas aren't true PGs, but I guess you could consider them better players than Calderon.

Sn1ch_Turna
11-05-2008, 06:27 PM
You guys are confusing the thread..... BETTER PG doesnt neccessarily mean BETTER PLAYER....

Skillwise Calderon is NOT better then Arenas, AI or even Andre Miller... but thats not the point.

Calderon is a system Quarter Back, he runs the playbook, executes the offense and manages the team better then any other PG in the East. Theres no amount of arguing thats gonna change homer opinions - Calderon is not the MOST SKILLED PG, but he is the most EFFECTIVE at his position!!!

PGs are floor generals, pass first executioners... He reminds me of John Stockton in his play, reliable, pick-roll PG with a great shot and a rediculous AST/TO ratio...

IMO i would have Calderon running my team over any other PG in the east, the only PGs i would take over him in the league are CP3, JKidd, Billups and maybe Parker... no one in the east

ShaunRiching9
11-05-2008, 06:36 PM
Calderon is the best in the east, i think, right now hes averaging like 14 points 10 assist which is all star material

BALLER71
11-05-2008, 06:37 PM
Andre Miller, Arenas, AI are all better than Calderon. Maybe even Rondo. And BTW I'm a Rondo hater.

Macedonian
11-05-2008, 06:49 PM
Andre Miller, Arenas, AI are all better than Calderon. Maybe even Rondo.Don't forget Haris, Duhon and Nelson... and Dooling, of course!

BullsNumber1Fan
11-05-2008, 06:52 PM
Rondo my ***! Rose is better than Rondo! Rondo can't do anything except for getting the ball to the "Big 3" and get out the way. That is the only reason he is getting recognized by so many people. If Rondo was on a team like the Kings, he would suck because he can't do anything without a star next to him.

DONT BRING RONDO IN THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN!!!

Halladay
11-05-2008, 06:55 PM
Love it how almost nobody has backed up their statements with stats. Stats are how you win arguments, you need proof and facts of why you believe why player X is better then player Y.

viniciusdcs
11-05-2008, 07:05 PM
Raps fan backing up Calderon have shown plenty of stats in previous pages ^.

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 07:09 PM
Rondo my ***! Rose is better than Rondo! Rondo can't do anything except for getting the ball to the "Big 3" and get out the way. That is the only reason he is getting recognized by so many people. If Rondo was on a team like the Kings, he would suck because he can't do anything without a star next to him.

DONT BRING RONDO IN THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN!!!

Or the Bulls.

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 07:10 PM
Calderon is the best in the east, i think, right now hes averaging like 14 points 10 assist which is all star material

18 points and 9.7 apg

Halladay
11-05-2008, 07:13 PM
Raps fan backing up Calderon have shown plenty of stats in previous pages ^.

I know that, I'm just saying in general...I've seen alot of posts somewhere along the lines of- "Iverson, Rondo, Miller are all much better guards then Calderon"...well, okay then. That's not exactly backing up what your saying. That's the easy way out. If you want to convince people then you need concrete facts, things like "leadership" are BS ways of trying to win a debate in the sports world simply because you cannot prove it.

Draco
11-05-2008, 07:13 PM
Skillwise Calderon is NOT better then Arenas, AI or even Andre Miller...

Calderon isn't even more skilled than Hinrich. If Hinrich played with Carmello Anthony for 3 years and in a system that stressed offense more than defense you'd probably see his points and assists get a Calderon-type boost.

Meh, whatever.. let people believe what they want. Like Bargnani being a superstar someday.. some dude still has that as his sig.

cmellofan15
11-05-2008, 07:16 PM
You guys are confusing the thread..... BETTER PG doesnt neccessarily mean BETTER PLAYER....

Skillwise Calderon is NOT better then Arenas, AI or even Andre Miller... but thats not the point.

Calderon is a system Quarter Back, he runs the playbook, executes the offense and manages the team better then any other PG in the East. Theres no amount of arguing thats gonna change homer opinions - Calderon is not the MOST SKILLED PG, but he is the most EFFECTIVE at his position!!!

PGs are floor generals, pass first executioners... He reminds me of John Stockton in his play, reliable, pick-roll PG with a great shot and a rediculous AST/TO ratio...

IMO i would have Calderon running my team over any other PG in the east, the only PGs i would take over him in the league are CP3, JKidd, Billups and maybe Parker... no one in the east

LOL

Yea I'd much rather have him than Nash and D-Will :rolleyes:

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 07:18 PM
Calderon isn't even more skilled than Hinrich. If Hinrich played with Carmello Anthony for 3 years and in a system that stressed offense more than defense you'd probably see his points and assists get a Calderon-type boost.

Meh, whatever.. let people believe what they want. Like Bargnani being a superstar someday.. some dude still has that as his sig.

Hinrich is not good, he is solid, but not good, Calderon is good and almost an All Star.

Draco
11-05-2008, 07:22 PM
Hinrich is not good, he is solid, but not good, Calderon is good and almost an All Star.

No idea how you're qualifying that statement.. Hinrich and most of the Bulls that were on the team that went 2 deep in the playoffs and won near 50 games are taking a hit this year because we're going in a new direction. Hinrich's on the bench, not because he's not good but because Rose is the future of this team.

mjt20mik
11-05-2008, 07:43 PM
He's soon getting there. Right now, stats wise he probably is the best pg in the East.

THE_FLASH_21
11-05-2008, 07:54 PM
No way Calderon is better then Andrea Miller

Nadhi1
11-05-2008, 07:57 PM
Calderon = God

JJ81
11-05-2008, 09:48 PM
It would be Arenas if he started playing like he did 2 seasons ago

dre1990
11-05-2008, 09:58 PM
A.Iis if u consider him A PG. besides him Its's ANDRE MILLER

Gibby23
11-05-2008, 11:08 PM
No idea how you're qualifying that statement.. Hinrich and most of the Bulls that were on the team that went 2 deep in the playoffs and won near 50 games are taking a hit this year because we're going in a new direction. Hinrich's on the bench, not because he's not good but because Rose is the future of this team.
He was on the team last year also, he wasn't that good,he isn't that good this year.

1-800-STFU
11-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Derrick Rose :)

Giaps
11-05-2008, 11:17 PM
Calderon is now the best in the east, but really it's for a lack of options. There are at least 6-8 PGs in the west that are arguably better.

Macedonian
11-05-2008, 11:17 PM
Calderon tonight vs. Pistons...
24 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists... 1 turnover!
FG 7-12, FT 9-9

A. Miller tonight vs. Heat...
11 points, 1 rebound, 6 assists... 3 turnovers!
FG 3-8, FT 5-6