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Gibby23
11-04-2008, 06:11 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=IversonTrade-Pistons-081103

Now that Chauncey Billups' departure brings an end to an era in Detroit, we have to look at these Pistons' lone championship as an aberration, and their attempt to become a sans-superstar dynasty a failure. They shocked the world, but they didn't change the game.

When they beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the 2004 NBA Finals, it was a tale of extremes, a unit of solid players who all were unwanted elsewhere knocking off a glittering roster stocked with four future Hall of Famers.

(In reality, though, the Lakers' HOF count stood at two by then; Karl Malone was so wounded he couldn't play in the last game, and Gary Payton had fallen so out of favor with Phil Jackson that he barely got off the bench. And one of the remaining superstars wouldn't pass the ball to the other.)

That 2004 banner still stands out among the past 30 NBA championships as the only one claimed without a surefire, Springfield-bound player on the roster. In fact, to claim the crown, you usually needed multiples. Magic, Kareem and Worthy. Bird, Parish, McHale. Moses and Doc. Shaq and Kobe. Duncan and Robinson.

What the Pistons were attempting was nothing less than a paradigm shift in the NBA, like taking a NASCAR track in a Prius.

Joe Dumars built his roster by seeing value where others saw risk. The core players consisted of a point guard who had already been with four other teams (Chauncey Billups), a guy seen as unfit to play alongside Michael Jordan in Washington (Richard Hamilton), a very limited offensive player on his third team (Ben Wallace), a late first-round draft pick (Tayshaun Prince) and a volatile, technical-happy head case (Rasheed Wallace).

As Dumars said when the Pistons got back to the Finals to face the Spurs in 2005, "I think what this team really shows is sometimes -- not all the time, but sometimes -- the fact that you show a player that you believe in him probably more than he believes in himself at the time, can elevate guys."

It was practically scouting by psychoanalysis. "I just observe people's tendencies," Dumars said. "See what their personalities are like, try to look beyond the dribbling and running and jumping, try to see what's inside someone."

Had the Pistons finished off the Spurs in that seven-game series, or at the very least if they had become a fixture in the Finals, the Pistons' approach might have worked. But Rasheed Wallace made the felonious mistake of leaving Robert Horry open in Game 5. Then in 2006, Dwyane Wade did them in. Next they were LeBronned. And finally, as if to certify the return to the 1980s marquee mode, Boston used a Big Three 2.0 to end them last season.

The t-e-a-m thing ultimately didn't work. The reason superstars matter more in the NBA than in any other pro league is that great players can take over a basketball game more easily. In fact, you practically need someone who can take over when you're playing playoff-level defenses programmed to neutralize your pet plays.
But you can't stop the unstoppable. Sometimes it really did come down to a matter of Jordan, or Bird, or Hakeem. It's not just a matter of having that one player, it's a matter of having that one player who can go by one name.

The Detroit way, asking a sum to be greater than one or two parts, didn't work.

In June, Dumars said things were going to change, and now he's made it happen. The Pistons finally have a big name, although at this point Iverson is big in name only. But at least Iverson has a big salary ($20.8 million) that can come off the team's salary cap after the season and put the Pistons in the free-agent market for real.

Here's the problem if they're going to go the big-name route: Who's going to come to Detroit? It's not a dream destination. The Pistons can't offer up Hollywood or South Beach. If LeBron craves a bigger stage than Cleveland, he won't find it in Detroit.

It might be easier to lure someone if the Pistons were to appear to be on the brink of a championship. But they've been moving in the opposite direction, and no longer are the favorites in the Eastern Conference. The irony is that the Pistons' fruitless attempts to win without a superstar could hurt their chances to get a superstar.

We'd like to think that an outside-the-box approach such as Dumars' could flourish, that a savvy GM could concoct a way to build a better rocket ship with only spare parts.

Sorry. This will drive all the quantum theory stats analysts and Trader Bob armchair GMs crazy, but it really does come down to luck. The difference can be as small as the coin flip that brought Magic Johnson to the Lakers or the bouncing pingpong balls that brought Tim Duncan to the Spurs. As great as the front offices of those two franchises have been, the Lakers' five championships in the '80s and the Spurs' four since 1999 simply don't happen without those random, fortunate events.

If it's not pure probability, it's also an almost incalculable sequence of events that lead to top players changing teams at or near their peak: the Kobe-Shaq impasse in Lakerland that led to Miami winning a championship in 2006; the chain reaction that started with the Celtics not winning the lottery in 2007 and wound up with a jubilant Kevin Garnett in green and white, bellowing on the court in the new Garden in June.

You can try running computer algorithms or you can try it the Dumars way, getting into people's heads. But in the end, you might be better off rubbing a rabbit's foot.

J.A. Adande joined ESPN.com as an NBA columnist in August 2007 after 10 years with the Los Angeles Times. Click here to e-mail J.A.



Related Topics: NBA, Detroit Pistons

Gibby23
11-04-2008, 06:14 PM
They got 1 title. There have been teams with superstars that have not even been to the finals.

marlinsfan24
11-04-2008, 06:15 PM
1 title=success.

JordansBulls
11-04-2008, 06:25 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=IversonTrade-Pistons-081103

Now that Chauncey Billups' departure brings an end to an era in Detroit, we have to look at these Pistons' lone championship as an aberration, and their attempt to become a sans-superstar dynasty a failure. They shocked the world, but they didn't change the game.

When they beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the 2004 NBA Finals, it was a tale of extremes, a unit of solid players who all were unwanted elsewhere knocking off a glittering roster stocked with four future Hall of Famers.

(In reality, though, the Lakers' HOF count stood at two by then; Karl Malone was so wounded he couldn't play in the last game, and Gary Payton had fallen so out of favor with Phil Jackson that he barely got off the bench. And one of the remaining superstars wouldn't pass the ball to the other.)

That 2004 banner still stands out among the past 30 NBA championships as the only one claimed without a surefire, Springfield-bound player on the roster. In fact, to claim the crown, you usually needed multiples. Magic, Kareem and Worthy. Bird, Parish, McHale. Moses and Doc. Shaq and Kobe. Duncan and Robinson.

What the Pistons were attempting was nothing less than a paradigm shift in the NBA, like taking a NASCAR track in a Prius.

Joe Dumars built his roster by seeing value where others saw risk. The core players consisted of a point guard who had already been with four other teams (Chauncey Billups), a guy seen as unfit to play alongside Michael Jordan in Washington (Richard Hamilton), a very limited offensive player on his third team (Ben Wallace), a late first-round draft pick (Tayshaun Prince) and a volatile, technical-happy head case (Rasheed Wallace).

As Dumars said when the Pistons got back to the Finals to face the Spurs in 2005, "I think what this team really shows is sometimes -- not all the time, but sometimes -- the fact that you show a player that you believe in him probably more than he believes in himself at the time, can elevate guys."

It was practically scouting by psychoanalysis. "I just observe people's tendencies," Dumars said. "See what their personalities are like, try to look beyond the dribbling and running and jumping, try to see what's inside someone."

Had the Pistons finished off the Spurs in that seven-game series, or at the very least if they had become a fixture in the Finals, the Pistons' approach might have worked. But Rasheed Wallace made the felonious mistake of leaving Robert Horry open in Game 5. Then in 2006, Dwyane Wade did them in. Next they were LeBronned. And finally, as if to certify the return to the 1980s marquee mode, Boston used a Big Three 2.0 to end them last season.

The t-e-a-m thing ultimately didn't work. The reason superstars matter more in the NBA than in any other pro league is that great players can take over a basketball game more easily. In fact, you practically need someone who can take over when you're playing playoff-level defenses programmed to neutralize your pet plays.
But you can't stop the unstoppable. Sometimes it really did come down to a matter of Jordan, or Bird, or Hakeem. It's not just a matter of having that one player, it's a matter of having that one player who can go by one name.

The Detroit way, asking a sum to be greater than one or two parts, didn't work.

In June, Dumars said things were going to change, and now he's made it happen. The Pistons finally have a big name, although at this point Iverson is big in name only. But at least Iverson has a big salary ($20.8 million) that can come off the team's salary cap after the season and put the Pistons in the free-agent market for real.

Here's the problem if they're going to go the big-name route: Who's going to come to Detroit? It's not a dream destination. The Pistons can't offer up Hollywood or South Beach. If LeBron craves a bigger stage than Cleveland, he won't find it in Detroit.

It might be easier to lure someone if the Pistons were to appear to be on the brink of a championship. But they've been moving in the opposite direction, and no longer are the favorites in the Eastern Conference. The irony is that the Pistons' fruitless attempts to win without a superstar could hurt their chances to get a superstar.

We'd like to think that an outside-the-box approach such as Dumars' could flourish, that a savvy GM could concoct a way to build a better rocket ship with only spare parts.

Sorry. This will drive all the quantum theory stats analysts and Trader Bob armchair GMs crazy, but it really does come down to luck. The difference can be as small as the coin flip that brought Magic Johnson to the Lakers or the bouncing pingpong balls that brought Tim Duncan to the Spurs. As great as the front offices of those two franchises have been, the Lakers' five championships in the '80s and the Spurs' four since 1999 simply don't happen without those random, fortunate events.

If it's not pure probability, it's also an almost incalculable sequence of events that lead to top players changing teams at or near their peak: the Kobe-Shaq impasse in Lakerland that led to Miami winning a championship in 2006; the chain reaction that started with the Celtics not winning the lottery in 2007 and wound up with a jubilant Kevin Garnett in green and white, bellowing on the court in the new Garden in June.

You can try running computer algorithms or you can try it the Dumars way, getting into people's heads. But in the end, you might be better off rubbing a rabbit's foot.

J.A. Adande joined ESPN.com as an NBA columnist in August 2007 after 10 years with the Los Angeles Times. Click here to e-mail J.A.



Related Topics: NBA, Detroit Pistons


Robinson wasn't a star in 2003.

Daze9900
11-04-2008, 06:43 PM
Exactly. No bias here coming from a Knicks fan. You play to win the game, to win the title. Don't water it down or short change their accomplishment. Now they're poised to make another run and have cap space to make further moves. You gotta love how they developed their young talent. Every team should wish Joe Dumars was running their team. J.A's lost whatever credability he had left with this west coast biased article. He should stick to going on t.v. and sounding less intelligent than woody paige.

Gibby23
11-04-2008, 06:58 PM
Exactly. No bias here coming from a Knicks fan. You play to win the game, to win the title. Don't water it down or short change their accomplishment. Now they're poised to make another run and have cap space to make further moves. You gotta love how they developed their young talent. Every team should wish Joe Dumars was running their team. J.A's lost whatever credability he had left with this west coast biased article. He should stick to going on t.v. and sounding less intelligent than woody paige.

J.A's a joke. This is pretty stupid when you look back at the teams that had great players and didn't win a championship, like Ewing and the Knicks, Malone, Stockton and the Jazz. They were still great teams and what they were doing worked but it is all about the era you play in and back then there was the Jordan Bulls, and Detroit found a way to get 1 with the Kobe and Shaq Lakers and Duncans Spurs in this Era. It worked.

simpsona
11-04-2008, 10:03 PM
I think we all know that J.A. has almost nothing intelligent to say. The Pistons did win an NBA championship and if a few plays went differently the next year, they may have one a second won against the spurs. Speculation is exactly that, so you can't say, but it was a close series. And then to have made it to the eastern conference finals every year since and have a good chance at making it there again this year, which has been set up by previous years, you really can't argue that the Pistons system worked. Are they a dynasty? Probably not. Are they one of the greatest teams ever like Jordan's Bulls, Byrd's Celtics, or Magic's Lakers? Of course not, but they were a success and have been one of the best teams in the league in the last several years.

NYMetros
11-04-2008, 10:07 PM
I stopped reading after the first sentence.

An end of an era in Detroit? This trade was meant to do just the opposite.

Raidaz4Life
11-04-2008, 10:22 PM
you'd have to be pretty naive to believe it didn't

Epic89
11-04-2008, 10:31 PM
1 title=success.

Agreed. Only 7 teams in the last 25 years have won NBA championships. They are so precious. If you win one, you can't be called a failure end of story.

Adande is a ****ing idiot/homer piece-of-****

dangrant75
11-04-2008, 10:54 PM
Their biggest mistake was not taking Mello over Darko. Granted they couldn't have gotten Rodney Stuckey now(by way of trading Darko for a pick) but that lineup would've carried them through the aging of Sheed/Billups/Hamilton. But all in all it did work they got their championship many a team and player have come close over the years and not gotten to the top of that mountain. Just ask Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and John Stockton.

lakers4sho
11-04-2008, 10:59 PM
Agreed. Only 7 teams in the last 25 years have won NBA championships. They are so precious. If you win one, you can't be called a failure end of story.

Adande is a ****ing idiot/homer piece-of-****

He isn't exactly a homer. He picks the Hornets to win the West and to win the NBA championships, and he (along with the rest of ESPN) continues to ride on LeBron's nuts and predicts him to be the MVP.

So I wouldn't call him a homer, cause apparently he doesn't fit the descriptions of one.

Lakers4ItAll
11-04-2008, 11:02 PM
Agreed!


Their biggest mistake was not taking Mello over Darko..

cmellofan15
11-04-2008, 11:03 PM
:pity:

A title is a title. Especially in the situation were in right now where only a couple teams control the Final's.

lakers4sho
11-04-2008, 11:04 PM
It worked, obviously. If it didn't you wouldn't see the Pistons in consecutive ECF appearances...

I think that's a no-brainer.

Chronz
11-05-2008, 02:52 PM
Adande is one of the least talented writers in the NBA columns, this piece lived up to his rep.

NYKnickFanatic
11-05-2008, 03:17 PM
They won it all together;
So obviously it worked.

Lakersfan2483
11-05-2008, 03:30 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=IversonTrade-Pistons-081103

Now that Chauncey Billups' departure brings an end to an era in Detroit, we have to look at these Pistons' lone championship as an aberration, and their attempt to become a sans-superstar dynasty a failure. They shocked the world, but they didn't change the game.

When they beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the 2004 NBA Finals, it was a tale of extremes, a unit of solid players who all were unwanted elsewhere knocking off a glittering roster stocked with four future Hall of Famers.

(In reality, though, the Lakers' HOF count stood at two by then; Karl Malone was so wounded he couldn't play in the last game, and Gary Payton had fallen so out of favor with Phil Jackson that he barely got off the bench. And one of the remaining superstars wouldn't pass the ball to the other.)

That 2004 banner still stands out among the past 30 NBA championships as the only one claimed without a surefire, Springfield-bound player on the roster. In fact, to claim the crown, you usually needed multiples. Magic, Kareem and Worthy. Bird, Parish, McHale. Moses and Doc. Shaq and Kobe. Duncan and Robinson.

What the Pistons were attempting was nothing less than a paradigm shift in the NBA, like taking a NASCAR track in a Prius.

Joe Dumars built his roster by seeing value where others saw risk. The core players consisted of a point guard who had already been with four other teams (Chauncey Billups), a guy seen as unfit to play alongside Michael Jordan in Washington (Richard Hamilton), a very limited offensive player on his third team (Ben Wallace), a late first-round draft pick (Tayshaun Prince) and a volatile, technical-happy head case (Rasheed Wallace).

As Dumars said when the Pistons got back to the Finals to face the Spurs in 2005, "I think what this team really shows is sometimes -- not all the time, but sometimes -- the fact that you show a player that you believe in him probably more than he believes in himself at the time, can elevate guys."

It was practically scouting by psychoanalysis. "I just observe people's tendencies," Dumars said. "See what their personalities are like, try to look beyond the dribbling and running and jumping, try to see what's inside someone."

Had the Pistons finished off the Spurs in that seven-game series, or at the very least if they had become a fixture in the Finals, the Pistons' approach might have worked. But Rasheed Wallace made the felonious mistake of leaving Robert Horry open in Game 5. Then in 2006, Dwyane Wade did them in. Next they were LeBronned. And finally, as if to certify the return to the 1980s marquee mode, Boston used a Big Three 2.0 to end them last season.

The t-e-a-m thing ultimately didn't work. The reason superstars matter more in the NBA than in any other pro league is that great players can take over a basketball game more easily. In fact, you practically need someone who can take over when you're playing playoff-level defenses programmed to neutralize your pet plays.
But you can't stop the unstoppable. Sometimes it really did come down to a matter of Jordan, or Bird, or Hakeem. It's not just a matter of having that one player, it's a matter of having that one player who can go by one name.

The Detroit way, asking a sum to be greater than one or two parts, didn't work.

In June, Dumars said things were going to change, and now he's made it happen. The Pistons finally have a big name, although at this point Iverson is big in name only. But at least Iverson has a big salary ($20.8 million) that can come off the team's salary cap after the season and put the Pistons in the free-agent market for real.

Here's the problem if they're going to go the big-name route: Who's going to come to Detroit? It's not a dream destination. The Pistons can't offer up Hollywood or South Beach. If LeBron craves a bigger stage than Cleveland, he won't find it in Detroit.

It might be easier to lure someone if the Pistons were to appear to be on the brink of a championship. But they've been moving in the opposite direction, and no longer are the favorites in the Eastern Conference. The irony is that the Pistons' fruitless attempts to win without a superstar could hurt their chances to get a superstar.

We'd like to think that an outside-the-box approach such as Dumars' could flourish, that a savvy GM could concoct a way to build a better rocket ship with only spare parts.

Sorry. This will drive all the quantum theory stats analysts and Trader Bob armchair GMs crazy, but it really does come down to luck. The difference can be as small as the coin flip that brought Magic Johnson to the Lakers or the bouncing pingpong balls that brought Tim Duncan to the Spurs. As great as the front offices of those two franchises have been, the Lakers' five championships in the '80s and the Spurs' four since 1999 simply don't happen without those random, fortunate events.

If it's not pure probability, it's also an almost incalculable sequence of events that lead to top players changing teams at or near their peak: the Kobe-Shaq impasse in Lakerland that led to Miami winning a championship in 2006; the chain reaction that started with the Celtics not winning the lottery in 2007 and wound up with a jubilant Kevin Garnett in green and white, bellowing on the court in the new Garden in June.

You can try running computer algorithms or you can try it the Dumars way, getting into people's heads. But in the end, you might be better off rubbing a rabbit's foot.

J.A. Adande joined ESPN.com as an NBA columnist in August 2007 after 10 years with the Los Angeles Times. Click here to e-mail J.A.



Related Topics: NBA, Detroit Pistons

There is no way I would call what Detroit accomplished a failure, what they accomplished would have to be considered a success story. They have been to the finals twice, won a championship, and have been to the eastern conference finals 6 straight years.

SteveNash
11-05-2008, 09:41 PM
They've been the second most successful team since 03-04. Could have possibly been the most successful if it wasn't for Horry's three.

How can a journalist write something like this?

ink
11-05-2008, 10:09 PM
Absolutely it worked. They dominated the East for several years and won a title.

IndyRealist
11-05-2008, 10:55 PM
Any team that dominates a decade like they did has to be called a success. Was Stockton/Malone a failed expirement? Ewing/Oakley/Starks?

innovator
11-06-2008, 07:56 AM
yes IVERSON IS BETTER! and iverson is what the pistons need A GO TO GUY

Gibby23
11-06-2008, 11:14 AM
yes IVERSON IS BETTER! and iverson is what the pistons need A GO TO GUY

What does this have to do with the thread?

JayW_1023
11-06-2008, 01:35 PM
Detroit was in good shape before the trade. They didn't have a clear go to guy, which made it very tough to defend because any guy could go off at any time.

With Iverson they are hoping he can be the go to guy. Iverson is used to being the focal point of the offense and now he has the most talent around him that he ever had. It'll be interesting how he will respond. Will he still be that guy who needs the ball in his hands in the clutch, or will he defer more to the likes of Prince, Sheed and Hamilton?

It's always been the subject of many of his supporters that he has never had the talent around him to win it all. Now that he finally has that talented supporting cast Iverson has alot to prove...not only that he can LEAD a team to a championship...but also be a team player that is willing to give up his numbers for a chance to be a winner.

leftymo
11-06-2008, 01:51 PM
I think a lot on this board are missing the point. Yes, the Pistons won a championship, so yes it was successful. But they weren't a great team, nor were they a dynasty. They were more like that 90's Braves. Always good, just not good enough consistently enough. They made seven consecutive ECF and only one title to show for it. So they just weren't a dynasty or a dominant team. Like Miami, one and done.

The comparison isn't to determine whether Detroit could successfully build a team to win a championship, the comparison was to see if they could build a dynasty or perennial title winner without using a superstar. To compete or compare with the early 00's Lakers, the Spurs, the Bulls, 80's Lakers and Celtics.