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View Full Version : The Truth About the Celtics "Defense"



lakers4sho
10-27-2008, 11:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaVvf2VOsc

I do not mean this thread as a baiting or whining, please don't take it that way. If you're not gonna make an educated post, just don't reply at all. Please.

Now, although I don't agree with some of his arguments, he does have some good, solid points (ie. 3 second defensive violation)

Just see for yourself.

lakers4sho
10-27-2008, 11:27 PM
If the title sounds offensive to you, just ignore it.

Lost Art
10-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Pretty well made video. I'm not going to cry about the officiating, what's done is done. But this guy does have some good points, the Celtics pretty much bullied the Lakers off the court.

BTW, please watch the video before responding.

cmstophe
10-27-2008, 11:50 PM
So the movie whines about the Celtics gettin away with stuff and then talks up the Celtics' defense as being top 5 of all time and stuff?

Just making sure I understood it.

S.J.Basketball
10-27-2008, 11:50 PM
Well made video. It's a video-essay. Good arguments and good evidence to back up what he is saying. I'm actually a little shocked.

S.J.Basketball
10-27-2008, 11:52 PM
So the movie whines about the Celtics gettin away with stuff and then talks up the Celtics' defense as being top 5 of all time and stuff?

Just making sure I understood it.

No. It's hardly whining about anything, but rather pointing out the facts and gives you video evidence of what he is saying. Watch again.

cmstophe
10-28-2008, 12:00 AM
No. It's hardly whining about anything, but rather pointing out the facts and gives you video evidence of what he is saying. Watch again.

Well, the point of the video is where I am confused. Is it just a statement of a bunch of random facts (as I suspect it is) and it lets you interpret them however you want? or was it made to persuade people of something? if it's the former, I understand, but if it's the latter, it is well put-together but doesnt get that message across.

The Intimidator
10-28-2008, 12:07 AM
The only thing that matters is that the Celtics are defending champs baby!

cmstophe
10-28-2008, 12:09 AM
The only thing that matters is that the Celtics are defending champs baby!

Totally relevent.

In an irrelevent way.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 12:14 AM
Well, the point of the video is where I am confused. Is it just a statement of a bunch of random facts (as I suspect it is) and it lets you interpret them however you want? or was it made to persuade people of something? if it's the former, I understand, but if it's the latter, it is well put-together but doesnt get that message across.

He's just stating a bunch of facts and observation. Of course, somehow, it's meant to persuade people of something. But the guy actually studied the game tape and gave his observations about it. It's just not some random video of a dude ranting about stuff without actually giving evidence.

Like I said, many of his points are true, although I don't agree to some of them.

superkegger
10-28-2008, 12:15 AM
Interesting. very interesting.

but thats officiating in this league, very inconsistent and below average. I'm not really sure what anyone could do about it, cause if you call all that, the game would basically be a free throw contest...

Beno7500
10-28-2008, 12:16 AM
dirty team

Afridi786
10-28-2008, 12:18 AM
This guy thinks Kobe > Jordan, there goes his credibility.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 12:22 AM
This guy thinks Kobe > Jordan, there goes his credibility.

I don't understand what you meant by credibility. He provided real-life example by studying the game tape and on a lot of them, most of his points are actually true, because you can actually see them in the video.

Like I said, it's not like it's some random guy ranting about stuff without providing concrete evidence to support his claim.

clehmun
10-28-2008, 12:22 AM
the thing i disagreed with him was the statement, "MJ never faced better defenses". and i'm sure that will pissed a lot of people off, and/or make them biased about the video.

coming from a laker fan myself, i do hear a little bit of whinning. but this guy does know his stuff.
i don't like to blame anyone or anything. to me, this video just showed me how good boston's defense was.
i don't blame the hand checks, the moving screens, the physical play, etc. because the celtics earned those non-calls with their defense.
i know that sounds unfair. but thats reality.
if superstars are given more calls compared to rookies, even if they make the same play. good/great defensive teams should be given the benefit of doubt.

lakers and their fans should use this video as motivation.
we didn't lose because of the bad calls, etc. it was because of boston's defense.

this year we will win because we are the best team!!!

Lost Art
10-28-2008, 12:22 AM
Well, the point of the video is where I am confused. Is it just a statement of a bunch of random facts (as I suspect it is) and it lets you interpret them however you want? or was it made to persuade people of something? if it's the former, I understand, but if it's the latter, it is well put-together but doesnt get that message across.

I agree, the purpose of the video is a little vague. I think he could've left out the stuff about MJ, I thought that was a bit random and unnecessary. Was the point of the video that the defenses of today are just as dirty and difficult to navigate as those that MJ face? Or was the point of the video that the Celtics played dirty and the refs let them get away with murder on D? I'm a bit confused too.

But it does have some great points and some good evidence. Can't really argue most of his points about the officiating. I was especially surprised by the illegal screens and some of the blatant "no-calls".

philab
10-28-2008, 12:25 AM
Interesting. very interesting.

but thats officiating in this league, very inconsistent and below average. I'm not really sure what anyone could do about it, cause if you call all that, the game would basically be a free throw contest...


Well, if a team keeps fouling a guy, then they should keep calling the fouls.

A lot of those are legitimate fouls. Legitimate fouls should be called, no matter the circumstance. If the team continues to foul, then it will become a free throw contest.

My guess is that the team would stop fouling so much, though, because putting the other team on the line that much is a sure way to lose.




I'd like to see the same degree of analysis but of the Lakers' D in order to really judge just how dirty the Celtics were playing. I gotta say, though, some of this is pretty awful. Pierce and Posey in particular. The smack at Kobe's Achilles is about as cheap as I've seen. I'd been complaining about Garnett's picks for awhile too -- hopefully they clean some of this up this season.

lakersrock
10-28-2008, 12:25 AM
They got away with all of that, so they were a Top 5 defense. They did it all through the playoffs. I said this after every game and got blasted, but they clearly manhandled the Lakers all the time. Just think, if they called all the fouls PP committed on Kobe and all of KG's illegal screens, they would have sit out most of the series. They won, so whatever, but it sucks knowing you didn't get a fair shake. This guy should make a video of all the bogus calls the Lakers defense got put on them after all the stuff Boston got away with.

kb24ap28
10-28-2008, 12:29 AM
im sick after watching that

x_notorious
10-28-2008, 12:29 AM
Video was very good, informative information. The NBA and it's officials need to take a look at the video. Some of the non-calls were disgusting. Sure Celtics had the best defense in the NBA but that doesn't justify them from getting away from all of these blatant fouls, hand checks, illegal screens, taunting from the bench, etc. Horrible, horrible officiating.

LakerzDQ
10-28-2008, 12:31 AM
Well, the point of the video is where I am confused. Is it just a statement of a bunch of random facts (as I suspect it is) and it lets you interpret them however you want? or was it made to persuade people of something? if it's the former, I understand, but if it's the latter, it is well put-together but doesnt get that message across.

the point of the video is probably the show that it wasn't Kobe's fault that the Lakers lost.

just showing how tough the defense was on him.

anyways, the guy doesn't say that Kobe is better than Jordan. he's just saying that people don't realize how hard it was for Kobe to do anything against the Celtic defense. I don't agree with the "watered down" statement about MJ's league, but the video shows many interesting points.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 12:43 AM
the point of the video is probably the show that it wasn't Kobe's fault that the Lakers lost.

just showing how tough the defense was on him.

anyways, the guy doesn't say that Kobe is better than Jordan. he's just saying that people don't realize how hard it was for Kobe to do anything against the Celtic defense. I don't agree with the "watered down" statement about MJ's league, but the video shows many interesting points.

I agree on that one.

cahawk
10-28-2008, 12:53 AM
Editing a video to show portions of games is misleading.
If the Celtic's edit a video, it will show all the laker infracitons.
Sure you can say it's factual, but it's not, it's showing a one sided spin.

It's the old bit about the other team always gets away with all the infractions...
while ignoring and not mentioning all the infractions your team got away with.

Finals always bring tougher & rougher defenses, especially on the road.
Wilt, Shaq, MJ, Magic all had to overcome it....and it was much, much worse.
kobe does best during the regular season and it's matador defenses.
kobe struggled in the Olympics too, shooting much worse than the other stars.

Personally, I like the tough swarming defenses that push stars to their limits.
Much more than the exhibiton type showtime that we see too much of in the NBA.

Lost Art
10-28-2008, 12:58 AM
Editing a video to show portions of games is misleading.
If the Celtic's edit a video, it will show all the laker infracitons.
Sure you can say it's factual, but it's not, it's showing a one sided spin.

It's the old bit about the other team always gets away with all the infractions...
while ignoring and not mentioning all the infractions your team got away with.

Finals always bring tougher & rougher defenses, especially on the road.
Wilt, Shaq, MJ, Magic all had to overcome it....and it was much, much worse.
kobe does best during the regular season and it's matador defenses.
kobe struggled in the Olympics too, shooting much worse than the other stars.

Personally, I like the tough swarming defenses that push stars to their limits.
Much more than the exhibiton type showtime that we see too much of in the NBA.

Here it comes! New season, same old posters.........its going to be a long season ladies and gentlemen :pity:

The Intimidator
10-28-2008, 12:58 AM
There was nothing wrong with the defense that the Celtics played last season. They will play the same defense this season. If you can score on them, then congrats to you. But if they stop you, quit *****ing. End of story. Celtics will repeat!!!

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 01:03 AM
Editing a video to show portions of games is misleading.
If the Celtic's edit a video, it will show all the laker infracitons.
Sure you can say it's factual, but it's not, it's showing a one sided spin.

Of course, you have to find evidence that SUPPORTS your claim. Isn't that basic? You don't present a blue apple to prove that apples are red.


It's the old bit about the other team always gets away with all the infractions...
while ignoring and not mentioning all the infractions your team got away with.

...like??

Draco
10-28-2008, 01:07 AM
Pretty well made video. I'm not going to cry about the officiating, what's done is done. But this guy does have some good points, the Celtics pretty much bullied the Lakers off the court.

BTW, please watch the video before responding.

Unfortunately I was suckered into watching another of this guys youtube videos.. He's explaining that the Celtics played zone defense and the Laker's couldn't answer it.. Big Fawking deal. The NBA scouting report on the Lakers in the Sports Illustrated pre-season review describes the exact same thing.. Anyone who actually watched the games themselves would know this.

What this has to do with MJ is beyond me... Instead of Zone defense that era had hand checking.. one could produce their own youtube video to show how MJ and the Bull's defeated rose to the occassion to defeat the defensive schemes of that era..

#1Mavericksfan
10-28-2008, 01:08 AM
Video was very good, informative information. The NBA and it's officials need to take a look at the video. Some of the non-calls were disgusting. Sure Celtics had the best defense in the NBA but that doesn't justify them from getting away from all of these blatant fouls, hand checks, illegal screens, taunting from the bench, etc. Horrible, horrible officiating.

Man I feel what your saying...the same thing happened to the Mavericks in the finals the Mavs are real 2006 NBA champs, nobody wants to talk about how many times D-Wade went to the free throw line more than the entire Mavs team that series, I'm on this Lakers side with this one because I know how it feels.

Draco
10-28-2008, 01:09 AM
I do not mean this thread as a baiting or whining, please don't take it that way. If you're not gonna make an educated post, just don't reply at all. Please.

Your chosen thread name is itself an example of baiting.. The truth about the Celtics defense is that it was better than the Lakers offense. Period.

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-28-2008, 01:10 AM
I knew all those things were going on. But it was not the Celtics fault. If the refs dont call it, you have to keep doing it. I just wanted the Lakers to implore the same tactics. They were trying to play fair and lost because of it. I can only blame the Lakers. If they would have tried to pull that stuff and the refs blew the whistle on them, then us Laker fans would have a legitimate gripe. But they never did so we never found out if they would have just let them play or it was really one sided officiating

cahawk
10-28-2008, 01:11 AM
This thread has less than no credibility....
When you post the ~Truth About~ ........
and then post a one sided video, that is hilarious.

Aren't we seeing enough of this junk in TV political smears & spins?

The Intimidator
10-28-2008, 01:12 AM
Your chosen thread name is itself an example of baiting.. The truth about the Celtics defense is that it was better than the Lakers offense. Period.

:cheers:

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 01:12 AM
Unfortunately I was suckered into watching another of this guys youtube videos.. He's explaining that the Celtics played zone defense and the Laker's couldn't answer it.. Big Fawking deal. The NBA scouting report on the Lakers in the Sports Illustrated pre-season review describes the exact same thing.. Anyone who actually watched the games themselves would know this.

What this has to do with MJ is beyond me... Instead of Zone defense that era had hand checking.. one could produce their own youtube video to show how MJ and the Bull's defeated rose to the occassion to defeat the defensive schemes of that era..

Handchecking can be effectively countered by a properly executed pick and roll or if a player has the capability to drive to the hoop at will.

Meanwhile, pick and roll has minimal effect against the zone because most of the defensive players are zoning and are not focused on one man.

The Intimidator
10-28-2008, 01:13 AM
This thread has less than no credibility....
When you post the ~Truth About~ ........
and then post a one sided video, that is hilarious.

Aren't we seeing enough of this junk in TV political smears & spins?

Yeah, but what do you expect? Everybody wants to Celtics to lose now that they're good again.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 01:20 AM
Your chosen thread name is itself an example of baiting.. The truth about the Celtics defense is that it was better than the Lakers offense. Period.


If the title sounds offensive to you, just ignore it.

Period.

Draco
10-28-2008, 01:21 AM
Period.

The thread title is not offensive to me. It's hyprocritical of you. Get over it.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 01:25 AM
The thread title is not offensive to me. It's hyprocritical of you. Get over it.

If it's not offensive to you, then why did you perceive it as a form of baiting?? :eyebrow:

ARMIN12NBA
10-28-2008, 01:31 AM
I already knew most of this and was screaming at every second of these games on my couch for these calls to be made. The Celtics defense is dirty. Fact. Nothing we can do about it now. Maybe next year the referees will make the calls. Who knows? Only thing for the Lakers to do now is to try to win a championship this upcoming campaign. Would I like all those clear and blatant fouls (like PJ Brown obviously shoving Gasol to the ground) to be called? Yes, of course. But I don't have a time machine so it is over with.

Draco
10-28-2008, 01:33 AM
If it's not offensive to you, then why did you perceive it as a form of baiting?? :eyebrow:

You're a Laker fan who's trying to reduce the Celtics defense to illegal screens, dirty baketball, etc. that's described in this video. That's baiting.

lakersrock
10-28-2008, 01:34 AM
I already knew most of this and was screaming at every second of these games on my couch for these calls to be made. The Celtics defense is dirty. Fact. Nothing we can do about it now. Maybe next year the referees will make the calls. Who knows? Only thing for the Lakers to do now is to try to win a championship this upcoming campaign. Would I like all those clear and blatant fouls (like PJ Brown obviously shoving Gasol to the ground) to be called? Yes, of course. But I don't have a time machine so it is over with.

Gasol clearly grabbed Brown's jersey during a flop to make it look like he was fouled. :rolleyes: I just found it amusing that I actually heard that from a Celtic fan.

Draco
10-28-2008, 01:37 AM
Handchecking can be effectively countered by a properly executed pick and roll or if a player has the capability to drive to the hoop at will.

Yeah, that's exactly how I remember the Knick's/Bull's playoff series... A quick easy fix.. It was a cakewalk.

lakersrock
10-28-2008, 01:38 AM
You're a Laker fan who's trying to reduce the Celtics defense to illegal screens, dirty baketball, etc. that's described in this video. That's baiting.

First, the illegal screens were on the Celtics' offense.

Second, how is using clear video evidence to show hand checks, bear hugs and shoves baiting? Just because you choose to say "they didn't show the Lakers fouls, so those don't count" doesn't make it any less true. Regardless of what the Lakers did on the other end, he clearly pointed out multiple minutes worth of fouls that weren't called. In your train of thought, KG really didn't set five illegal screens before the sixth was called because he didn't show Gasol setting an illegal screen for Kobe.

Draco
10-28-2008, 01:40 AM
First, the illegal screens were on the Celtics' offense.

Second, how is using clear video evidence to show hand checks, bear hugs and shoves baiting? Just because you choose to say "they didn't show the Lakers fouls, so those don't count" doesn't make it any less true. Regardless of what the Lakers did on the other end, he clearly pointed out multiple minutes worth of fouls that weren't called. In your train of thought, KG really didn't set five illegal screens before the sixth was called because he didn't show Gasol setting an illegal screen for Kobe.

The rest of the world saw it a bit differently... That's playoff basketball. How many things happen that could conceivably be called a foul? You could be there all day making youtube videos of that. Sorry, but you guys just come across as whiney Laker fans.

DreamShaker
10-28-2008, 01:41 AM
Yall know the guy who made this video....KO8E.....he's devoted alot of time to all things Kobe....he is a smart guy....alot of interesting things that he brings up....don't always agree with him but I enjoy his opinions and rants:)

ARMIN12NBA
10-28-2008, 01:43 AM
The rest of the world saw it a bit differently... That's playoff basketball. How many things happen that could conceivably be called a foul? You could be there all day making youtube videos of that. Sorry, but you guys just come across as whiney Laker fans.

Right. Because in the playoffs, teams are allowed to get away with every foul conceivably possible in basketball... :rolleyes:

Lebron23
10-28-2008, 01:44 AM
Is K08E still posting in this site?

lakersrock
10-28-2008, 01:45 AM
The rest of the world saw it a bit differently... That's playoff basketball. How many things happen that could conceivably be called a foul? You could be there all day making youtube videos of that. Sorry, but you guys just come across as whiney Laker fans.

You can't see a bearhug any different than I do. He froze the frame with both of PP's arms wrapped around Kobe. You can't see their hand/arm hitting him any different than I do. You probably are able to convince yourself it didn't happen due to your Laker Hating, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. (If you go back and watch all of their playoff games from last year, you'll see they did it in every single series. It's pathetic that you guys are using Lakers fans as an excuse to dismiss this when they did it all through the playoffs....and year for that matter.)

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 01:45 AM
The rest of the world saw it a bit differently... That's playoff basketball. How many things happen that could conceivably be called a foul? You could be there all day making youtube videos of that. Sorry, but you guys just come across as whiney Laker fans.

Yeah, that's playoff basketball. But if the Celtics were awarded 38 free throws for puny Laker fouls, then that becomes a whole different story altogether.

LAKERS 24/7
10-28-2008, 01:46 AM
Yall know the guy who made this video....KO8E.....he's devoted alot of time to all things Kobe....he is a smart guy....alot of interesting things that he brings up....don't always agree with him but I enjoy his opinions and rants:)


I saw this video earlier today, glad you posted it though. I don't know if you guys remember, but KB42PAH is actually KO8E that use to post here, but he was such a homer that he was banned (I think). Anyway, I was curious what points of his you don't agree with.

Nice, I was right.

DerekRE_3
10-28-2008, 01:49 AM
Karma is a *****....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcS10rSrOhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlByVWEEXE8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0KJvlSUB-w&feature=related

ARMIN12NBA
10-28-2008, 01:54 AM
Karma is a *****....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcS10rSrOhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlByVWEEXE8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0KJvlSUB-w&feature=related

That is not being blatantly dirty at all. The calls are just being called on the Kings defense...Not refs obviously ignoring pushing, shoving, and intentional dirty plays that you would see on a playground.

Not to mention the fact that the Kings had 15 more free-throw in the series than the Lakers so I don't see where you're getting at. BTW-- A former referee and other consultants for 82games.com reviewed the game and said there was an equal number of questionable calls for both teams.

LAKERS 24/7
10-28-2008, 02:02 AM
Karma is a *****....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcS10rSrOhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlByVWEEXE8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0KJvlSUB-w&feature=related

No dude, no. There's no comparison.

Draco
10-28-2008, 02:02 AM
You can't see a bearhug any different than I do. He froze the frame with both of PP's arms wrapped around Kobe. You can't see their hand/arm hitting him any different than I do. You probably are able to convince yourself it didn't happen due to your Laker Hating, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. (If you go back and watch all of their playoff games from last year, you'll see they did it in every single series. It's pathetic that you guys are using Lakers fans as an excuse to dismiss this when they did it all through the playoffs....and year for that matter.)

I don't have to convince myself of anything.. The Lakers lost and it doesn't reflect well on any Laker fan to come up with excuses as to why. Holding and grabbing go on in the playoffs.. I gaurentee Tom Thibodeau didn't invent it nor did he have an arrangement with the ref's to let it go. Since I actually have a life, I'm not going to produce a youtube video to support this opinion.. Take it or leave it.. either way, you guys are arguing the losing end. The Laker's lost.

Draco
10-28-2008, 02:04 AM
Yall know the guy who made this video....KO8E.....he's devoted alot of time to all things Kobe....he is a smart guy....alot of interesting things that he brings up....don't always agree with him but I enjoy his opinions and rants:)

dougthonus is one of PSD's smart guys.. K08E's the comic book guy from the Simpsons.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 02:04 AM
I don't have to convince myself of anything.. The Lakers lost and it doesn't reflect well on any Laker fan to come up with excuses as to why. Holding and grabbing go on in the playoffs.. I gaurentee Tom Thibodeau didn't invent it nor did he have an arrangement with the ref's to let it go. Since I actually have a life, I'm not going to produce a youtube video to support this opinion.. Take it or leave it.. either way, you guys are arguing the losing end. The Laker's lost.

Like I've said


Yeah, that's playoff basketball. But if the Celtics were awarded 38 free throws for puny Laker fouls, then that becomes a whole different story altogether.

amare#1
10-28-2008, 02:05 AM
Very very interesting. Well made video, although it is very melodramatic. Thibodeau is one sneaky genius.

LakersOrNothing
10-28-2008, 02:09 AM
Ok so I watched the video. Here's what I thought.....

Celtics got away with their superior defense and Lakers just couldn't counter it. Dirty or not, it doesn't matter any longer. By the way, I sat next to David Stern during the playoffs and he said to me that he will be fixing the games to Celtics advantage cause Vegas needed some extra dough and promised to comp his stay at Wynn for the next 50 yrs. Now who cares. Lakers lost in the finals, and Celtics won. After that, we found out Paul Pierce is now amongst the greatest NBA players of all time. 2008 NBA Championship -> Celtics. The end.

Lets look forward to 2009 now.
See you next season(oh.. that's today!)

Nighthawk
10-28-2008, 02:23 AM
he has many great points...

WHO CARES

Ive seen TERRIBLE calls and EVIDENCE of Yao and the rockets not getting calls. The Lakers were getting massive amounts of calls when they were winning.

Point is im sure you could look at lots of other games and see this same thing.

Lakers can use this an an excuse....GOD I hope we meet in the Finals next year. **** Houston and NO. I want LA

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 02:27 AM
he has many great points...

WHO CARES

Ive seen TERRIBLE calls and EVIDENCE of Yao and the rockets not getting calls. The Lakers were getting massive amounts of calls when they were winning.

Point is im sure you could look at lots of other games and see this same thing.

Lakers can use this an an excuse....GOD I hope we meet in the Finals next year. **** Houston and NO. I want LA

massive?

I would like specific examples, please.

Nighthawk
10-28-2008, 02:49 AM
massive?

I would like specific examples, please.

you have the net SEARCH


YOUTUBE

theres videos....SHAQ shooting how many FT's

#1Mavericksfan
10-28-2008, 02:50 AM
Yeah, that's playoff basketball. But if the Celtics were awarded 38 free throws for puny Laker fouls, then that becomes a whole different story altogether.

That's nothing man because Dwyane Wade was averaging over 16 free throw attempts a game in the Heat vs. Mavs series you couldn't even touch Wade without a foul being called but nobody wants to say anything about that.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 02:52 AM
They're doing a Hack-A-Shaq...of course O'Neal would get a ton of FTs.

And like ARMIN12NBA said, the Kings still had the FT advantage throughout the series...so you can't really say that it was unfair to them.

82games.com analyzed the series as well and said that both teams had equal number of questionable calls.

LakerzDQ
10-28-2008, 02:53 AM
You're a Laker fan who's trying to reduce the Celtics defense to illegal screens, dirty baketball, etc. that's described in this video. That's baiting.

I don't think he's trying to attack the Celtics by that.
anyways, screens have nothing to do with defense. and you spell it basketball.

the video is just saying that the Celtic defense is based on a well formed zone, focused on Kobe Bryant. That defense consists of constant triple teaming, handchecking, grabbing, 3 second violations, and uncalled fouls. He even says that he doesn't blame them for that, because Tom Thibodeau teaches his team to foul without being seen. The point of the video is to defend Kobe, not to attack the Celtics. The guy who made it is obviously a Kobe fan, and like many Kobe fans, he's trying to compare Kobe to MJ. Everyone turned on Kobe because of his poor finals performance, and so the guy is just trying to defend Kobe.

lakers4sho
10-28-2008, 02:54 AM
That's nothing man because Dwyane Wade was averaging over 16 free throw attempts a game in the Heat vs. Mavs series you couldn't even touch Wade without a foul being called but nobody wants to say anything about that.

I'm with ya man. But you can't help but wonder when Leon Powe shoots more freethrows than the entire other team combined.

Draco
10-28-2008, 03:04 AM
I don't think he's trying to attack the Celtics by that.
anyways, screens have nothing to do with defense. and you spell it basketball.

Thanks, professor. How about capitalizing the first word in your sentence if you're going to attribute my typo to poor spelling?



the video is just saying that the Celtic defense is based on a well formed zone, focused on Kobe Bryant....

so the guy is just trying to defend Kobe.

I didn't misinterpret the video. The first seconds of it show a summary of the youtube posters points; 'dirty basketball, illegal screens, etc.' Yes, the illegal screens have nothing to do with the title of this thread; 'defense'. There is still the intent of the poster to reduce the Celtic's credibility. That's what I was railing against. Thanks for the reply.

Chronz
10-28-2008, 03:25 AM
Cant you guys un ban him already, the dude gets banned every forum hes been in but I never understand why. Hes abit extreme with a fondness towards proving MJ had it easy, but its good to have radicals to stir things up, especially devoted fans like him. Seriously bring him back.....


As for the video itself, once again great narration but much like BruceBlitz's video rants never tell the entire story, were the Celtics one of the best defenses ever. Hell yes, and were the Pistons the greatest defense of all time, you damn skippy but to say MJ had it easier is totally subjective. MJ wouldnt have played the way Kobe did in these finals, especially a younger MJ, to say MJ just shot over small defenders is too simplistic that simply wasnt the case. The leagues they both played in differ in strengths but not in complexity. If you think those were handchecks you dont know 90's basketball.

LAKERS 24/7
10-28-2008, 03:40 AM
Cant you guys un ban him already, the dude gets banned every forum hes been in but I never understand why. Hes abit extreme with a fondness towards proving MJ had it easy, but its good to have radicals to stir things up, especially devoted fans like him. Seriously bring him back.....


I agree

barreleffact
10-28-2008, 04:04 AM
This is what I gather:
the lakers lost, Celtics had the best defense in the league, and its over.

However, the guy brings up some very credible points that people on the board hate too hard to try to counter with logic. A few people have said what happens when the lakers fouled?...Thats obvious, Leon Powe ends up with more FT attempts than the entire Laker team. In other words, a 30+ FT disparity is the result. The officiating was incredibly biased. KG's "screens" were vicious. He manhandled sasha and a few players whenever possible. It really is terrible that the commentators can see calls, but the refs, who are on the court and in the action, cant see a thing. The bench was unreal. I never would have thought at all to look at them, but since they cant touch them, it cant be a billion times worse than screaming fans...maybe a millions because its a lot closer, but it aint the worst thing imaginable. The Posey fouling after calls, and the attacks to Kobe's legs bother me a lot more. thats really messed up that their franchise behaved like dawgs, bullies, or hoods...however you wanna phrase it.

Still, I would love to see some analysis from Bostons perspective. If for no other reason, just to shut you guys up. It'd be impossible to say the Lakers got away with nothing, but it would be nice to see what they did get away with none the less. At the end of the day, its over. Hopefully the next series wont be rigged.

And that playoff basketball bs is a lame excuse. A foul is a foul. A little roughness is acceptable, but manhandling and overlooked cheating should never be allowed.

BkOriginalOne
10-28-2008, 04:14 AM
Good defense if you ask me

SteveNash
10-28-2008, 04:18 AM
He clearly has bias, but he made some interesting points and the video should be used whenever someone talks about handchecking rules and how you can never touch a player.

However, the key point should be how soft the Lakers were in the series, how they need to get tougher, Bynum and Ariza healthy should help, but they need to toughen up a guy like Gasol if they want to be a dynasty.


the thing i disagreed with him was the statement, "MJ never faced better defenses". and i'm sure that will pissed a lot of people off, and/or make them biased about the video.

He said that Jordan never faced better defences in the Finals, and he's right.

barreleffact
10-28-2008, 04:23 AM
He clearly has bias, but he made some interesting points and the video should be used whenever someone talks about handchecking rules and how you can never touch a player.

However, the key point should be how soft the Lakers were in the series, how they need to get tougher, Bynum and Ariza healthy should help, but they need to toughen up a guy like Gasol if they want to be a dynasty.



He said that Jordan never faced better defences in the Finals, and he's right.

meaning dont just let kg shove you to the ground? thanks for the advice

in all honesty, i do think the lakers should have gotten into fight mode and forced the refs to call fouls on a fair level. i mean if you send in luke walton...he aint necessary, but if he punches KG for pushing him down...now the refs have to call everything evenly to keep the game safe

S.J.Basketball
10-28-2008, 05:07 AM
Karma is a *****....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcS10rSrOhI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlByVWEEXE8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0KJvlSUB-w&feature=related

Seriously man...its been 6 years going on 7!! GET OVER IT! They already did an iinvestigation and found nothing wrong. GTFO.

mfb_lt1birdman
10-28-2008, 08:08 AM
Well made video that clearly shows multiple cases of illegal play by the Celtics. However as many have mentioned it is completely one-sided and in all likelyhood a simlar video could be shown on what LA got away with. I will also mention that Kobes' constant complaining and flailing of the arms does not help his cause. Nearly every play he wants the foul whether its their or not. He loses all credibility by doing this.

The MJ comparison is just dumb. I recall him going against some tough New York teams, Miami, and even the bad boy Pistons in his early days.

Back on the subject of the Celts though, they played physical and borderline dirty defense which obviously got under LA's skin. Especially the after whistle nonsense. It worked and they won because of it. Us LA fans can whine about it, but I guarantee you the Celtics are not going to apologize. They will do it again when the time comes and LA better be ready to fight fire with fire.

That being said, to me the illegal screens drove me absolutely nuts. It was so blatant and offers such an unfair advantage. I just cannot believe as the series matured that the refs did not smash this tactic. Also the defensive 3 seconds was ridiculous but many teams/players seem to get away with 4-5 seconds all the time. All the hand checks and extra contact I will chalk up to a competitive, physical finals series. We want to watch the teams play not sit at the foul line. LA has to match the intensity and step up to what the refs will allow. Do this and they will be victorious. I'm just prayin for a rematch next June.

Lakersfan2483
10-28-2008, 08:25 AM
The video was not a revelation to me, I watched every game and I saw the "non-calls" during the course of each game. Boston was the more physical team and got away with more, when you are more physical, you get away with more. (See the Detroit Pistons of old)

As far as the officiating, for quite sometime the NBA has had some of the "worst" officials I have ever seen. I have been following the game of basketball for over 20 yrs, I have played the game, and I know what constitutes a foul and how a game should be called. Over the past 5 yrs. or so, I have witnessed some of the poorest officiated games in league history. Examples: Boston vs. LA (specifically game 2), Dallas vs Miami (2006 NBA finals), Lakers vs Kings (game 2, game 6), I can name quite a few, the list is endless. The point is the integrity of the game suffers when the game is not called properly.

Lakersfan2483
10-28-2008, 08:31 AM
That's nothing man because Dwyane Wade was averaging over 16 free throw attempts a game in the Heat vs. Mavs series you couldn't even touch Wade without a foul being called but nobody wants to say anything about that.

I watched every game of that series and was an eyewitness to some of the worst officiating in league history. I have never seen such a parade to the free throw line, it was absurd.

JordansBulls
10-28-2008, 09:52 AM
Seriously why does this always come up for Kobe? Why aren't other guys like Mcgrady, Wade, Lebron or Iverson complaining about it?

People try to say the zone is this or that, however how come their are soo many wings going off nowadays and why is it soo easy for them to score?


http://www.hoopshype.com/articles/defense_lazenby.htm


“I think that ‘Jordan Rules’ defense, as much as anything else, played a part in the making of Michael Jordan,” said Tex Winter, who was an assistant coach for that Chicago team. The 1990 loss forced Jordan and the Bulls to find an answer to Detroit’s muscle.

“Those Jordan Rules were murder,” Winter explained. “The fact that we could win the next year even though they were playing that defense says everything about Jordan as a competitor. Any lesser player would have folded his tent.”



The unfortunate footnote to this legacy is that under an interpretation of the rules adopted by the NBA last season, if Dumars were playing today he would not be allowed to guard Jordan so physically, or perhaps even guard him at all.


In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

“It’s more difficult now to guard the quick wing player who can handle the ball,” Thorn said of the change. “I think it helps skilled players over someone who just has strength or toughness. What the NBA is trying to do is promote unimpeded movement for dribblers or cutters.”



“The NBA felt there was too much body, too much hand-checking, being used by defenders to the detriment of the game. There was a feeling that there was too much advantage for a defensive player who could merely use his strength to control the offensive player.”


As a result, the new rules interpretation helped promote the emergence last season of a new generation of super stars, from Kobe Bryant scoring his 81 points during a regular season game, to LeBron James, Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas and Dwyane Wade making big splashes in the playoffs.

“The good wing players – LeBron, Kobe, Arenas, Wade, Carter – shot a lot of free throws with the way the game is now called,” Thorn admitted.



Winter acknowledges the outgrowth of the new rules interpretation is the rise of the super dominant offensive player, led by Wade’s performance in the NBA Finals and Bryant’s string of 40-, 50, even 60-point games during the regular season.

“It’s brought all these 40-point scorers,” Winter said. “They can’t score 40 points unless they get 15-20 free throws.”

And that’s exactly what they were getting on their big nights.

“They should be protected, but not that much,” Winter said of the current generation of talented offensive players. “I don’t think that just touching a player should be a foul."


Winter’s other complaint with the new officiating is that the game now allows the same old physical play in the post while turning the perimeter and wing into a no-touch zone.

I think that article sums it up nicely.

JordansBulls
10-28-2008, 09:53 AM
The Celtics are certainly an all-time level defensive team, but I think what most people have a problem with is the conclusions he's drawing about Kobe and Jordan. He acts like we never saw Kobe under man-to-man rules from '97-'04, which is not the case. In a similar vein to that video, I can show the same exact type of plays/defense for Jordan like so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cfMsmmtsg&feature=PlayList&p=A43E0CAE9EA96872&index=6#t=1m21s

Three Knicks surround Jordan off the screen, even after a few probe dribbles.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cfMsmmtsg&feature=PlayList&p=A43E0CAE9EA96872&index=6#t=3m24s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztuspM7TNE#t=0m39s

Compare the two above plays with the play at 49-50 seconds in the Kobe video that the poster highlights for some reason as if this is the only time a player has ever been doubled on the perimeter when he took a hard dribble.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cfMsmmtsg&feature=PlayList&p=A43E0CAE9EA96872&index=6#t=3m44s

Who is Ewing guarding there? He's waiting at the basket for Jordan, that's who. Jordan fakes to the baseline and then spins and fades back towards the middle, throwing Ewing, who was coming to hard double, off the play. He also gets McDaniel to contest the shot from the top. Who was McDaniel guarding by the way when he was camped in the lane there? His man was two zones above him, past the 3-pt line -- isn't that illegal defense?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztuspM7TNE#t=5m28s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztuspM7TNE#t=7m5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BztuspM7TNE#t=7m21s

Compare the two above plays (one is a replay) with the play at 2:27-2:31 in the Kobe video. What's the difference other than that Jordan makes the shot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cfMsmmtsg&feature=PlayList&p=A43E0CAE9EA96872&index=6#t=5m41s

3 Knicks surround him off the screen and he takes a quick escape dribble and hits the jumper. Again, how is this any different from several plays on the Kobe video except for the fact that Jordan made the shot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2cfMsmmtsg&feature=PlayList&p=A43E0CAE9EA96872&index=6#t=8m00s

How is this any different than the play at 1:03-1:07 of the Kobe video? It's the same exact thing (with nearly an identical finish, even).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU#t=2m17s

Let's not worry about the two Knick defenders who follow Jordan around on the perimeter here (and a third, Jackson, who shades over as well); let's look at the two Knicks camped in the paint from the time Jordan does his initial crossover. To alleviate the pressure, Jordan executes a give-and-go and still has to hit a ridiculous one-hander over two Knicks (including - OMG! - a 7-footer).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU#t=2m48s

OMG, all eyes on Jordan, 4 defenders in the paint, and 3 defenders collapse on him as he penetrates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU#t=3m12s

A double team forces Jordan to give the ball up, then he gets it back and beats 3 defenders on the perimeter for the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU#t=3m56s

3 defenders meet Jordan on the face-up (who's Ewing guarding? Who's Jackson guarding?). Then Jordan makes a hard move past Ewing, turning the corner (while getting popped in the face; watch the replay and look at his head move), and then pulling up with a ridiculous contorting shot over the 4th defender who was there to meet him at the baseline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU#t=5m9s

Hard-doubled on the catch, able to turn the corner to escape the trap, get in the gap quickly enough to knife between a third defender and Ewing, and finish over a 4th defender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEwIau2pJYY#t=7m51s

Who is Zo guarding there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Zq8dhP97U#t=0m49s

3 defenders immediately converge on Jordan when he puts th ball down, and he has to work the angles and invent an insane shot to score.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE#t=0m13s

Triple-teamed in the post on the catch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE#t=0m52s

Who's Dantley guarding at the edge of the lane there? Two defenders beat for the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE#t=1m20s

Who is Isiah guarding there? You can't just keep feinting at a double-team like that and stay halfway, you have to commit or get back to your man; you can't stay that far away from your man for that long. That's an illegal defense; hence, this play never actually happened and we're in the Matrix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE#t=1m45s

A second defender helps to cut off the drive (which the Kobe video creator seems to have a big problem with), and then Jordan spins back and eventually beats 3 defenders for the shot off the glass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE#t=2m26s

Jordan beats two guys for the shot (by being smart enough to recognize that Isiah would fly by if he pump-faked) and actually manages to shoot it over A 7-FOOTER !!!!1 (somehow)


These plays aren't to say that one defense is better than the other (as I said, the Celtic defense is an all-time level defense). But it does show why, as Indian Guy said, people like the video maker who say stupid stuff like "Jordan played one-on-one iso basketball his entire career" are not to be taken seriously. Jordan is pretty easily the most doubled/trapped perimeter player in history, and the only player in general who has seen more defensive attention over the course of his career is Shaq.

You know when Jordan wasn't doubled? When he caught the ball off of off-the-ball movement and quickly fired. By 1992 (age 28-29) he was getting about 40-50% of his baskets on that type of action. That's the sort of shot you can get against any defense (yes, even the Celtics). Too bad Kobe was too stupid, or his off-the-ball and defense-reading game so underdeveloped and deficient, to try to do more of that. Instead he tried to attack a set defense head on off the dribble the entire series and then was perplexed as to why it wasn't successful. Just appalling bball IQ.

I didn't even start to post video of the attention Jordan drew in the post, because it would be too easy. Yeah, Kobe is the only player who was ever collapsed on by multiple defenders:


http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5995/0102seattle4teamgt7.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4808/9091eastfinalspistonsroso3.jpg

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/4831/9293knicks4on1aq7.jpg

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/2194/4971897470ddfceea7oth7.jpg

JordansBulls
10-28-2008, 09:57 AM
Looking back on this thread it doesn't even seem like it was with the right intention. The Celtics are a good defensive team and this made it seem as if they were dirty. They weren't the bad boys or Knicks who admitted they played dirty.