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View Full Version : Why do people think Tracy is even an Elite player in the league?



Kabowdos
10-27-2008, 12:38 AM
41.9 % from the field. 29.2% from 3-point. 68% from the line. How inefficient are his numbers?

barreleffact
10-27-2008, 12:44 AM
his 02-03 season or around there, he was arguably the best in the game. he was so smooth, athletic, good shooter, i mean he was the real deal offensively. now he isnt who he used to be. like ray allen isnt who he used to be either. it happens, but he is still a very talented guy. he was just done in by injuries

Beno7500
10-27-2008, 01:01 AM
I find him very overrated.

Chaudhry
10-27-2008, 01:27 AM
well if you watch him play you just see gold when he gets going...
he makes the game seem simple... he has some flashes of brilliance
(13pts in 30sec) that only an elite player can even dream about...
lately because of his injuries he isn't preforming at par... but thats the
thing, if he gets healthy he can light up any team in the league...

on the other hand this seems like a long term injury that probably won't
go away... given that maybe people should knock him down a couple of pegs...

Beno7500
10-27-2008, 01:32 AM
i remember when he played the kings it took him 30+ shots to get like 34 points. Thats just trrrble

amare#1
10-27-2008, 02:00 AM
his 02-03 season or around there, he was arguably the best in the game. he was so smooth, athletic, good shooter, i mean he was the real deal offensively. now he isnt who he used to be. like ray allen isnt who he used to be either. it happens, but he is still a very talented guy. he was just done in by injuries

Agreed.

prash
10-27-2008, 02:03 AM
He'll be a better player this season.

Chronz
10-27-2008, 02:22 AM
What are you talking about hes not considered elite anymore, hes still elite at running an offense and keeping his teams together and making them better but in terms of individual dominance hes not who he once was. But to answer your question about why hes still an effective number 1 option, its because of his ridiculously low turnover rate, for someone to carry a burden as large as McGrady has the last few years its very impressive. And since turnovers are less costly than a missed shot his overall effectiveness isnt as bad as his FG% is made out to be, that and the fact that he couldnt play hurt last year the way he used to. When healthy hes definitely still elite.

Thats why this year is so important for Tmac, with Artest and Yao around he wont have to shoulder such a high % of the teams possessions and if he doesnt replace quantity with quality the team wont go anywhere. No excuses but at the same time if this was 02-03 Tmac or even 04 Tmac, the team would be set.

legendkillerv2
10-27-2008, 03:12 AM
Thats why this year is so important for Tmac, with Artest and Yao around he wont have to shoulder such a high % of the teams possessions and if he doesnt replace quantity with quality the team wont go anywhere. No excuses but at the same time if this was 02-03 Tmac or even 04 Tmac, the team would be set.

I couldn't say it better my self.

MTar786
10-27-2008, 04:43 AM
I find him very overrated.

coming from a guy who thinks kevin martin is the real deal!? haha

tmac is just off the radar.. he's not as good as kobe, lebron, dwade.. 4th place is somebody no one seems to look at.. he's still a monster. he just doesnt have the passion for the game.. but at the same time on any given night has the killer instinct.. plus the injuries hold him back..

MTar786
10-27-2008, 04:48 AM
What are you talking about hes not considered elite anymore, hes still elite at running an offense and keeping his teams together and making them better but in terms of individual dominance hes not who he once was. But to answer your question about why hes still an effective number 1 option, its because of his ridiculously low turnover rate, for someone to carry a burden as large as McGrady has the last few years its very impressive. And since turnovers are less costly than a missed shot his overall effectiveness isnt as bad as his FG% is made out to be, that and the fact that he couldnt play hurt last year the way he used to. When healthy hes definitely still elite.

Thats why this year is so important for Tmac, with Artest and Yao around he wont have to shoulder such a high % of the teams possessions and if he doesnt replace quantity with quality the team wont go anywhere. No excuses but at the same time if this was 02-03 Tmac or even 04 Tmac, the team would be set.

that part right there.. no one on this forum could have put it better

Beno7500
10-27-2008, 10:11 AM
coming from a guy who thinks kevin martin is the real deal!? haha

tmac is just off the radar.. he's not as good as kobe, lebron, dwade.. 4th place is somebody no one seems to look at.. he's still a monster. he just doesnt have the passion for the game.. but at the same time on any given night has the killer instinct.. plus the injuries hold him back..
?

JordansBulls
10-27-2008, 10:18 AM
his 02-03 season or around there, he was arguably the best in the game. he was so smooth, athletic, good shooter, i mean he was the real deal offensively. now he isnt who he used to be. like ray allen isnt who he used to be either. it happens, but he is still a very talented guy. he was just done in by injuries

Duncan that year got both MVP and Finals MVP, when you get both of them the same year you gotta be the best in the league.

$ NyC $
10-27-2008, 10:44 AM
He's not the scorer he use 2 be but he doesn't have 2. Back in Orlando he was the main and basically only option. Now he has a better supporting cast plus his injuries are really holding him back. If he stays healthy he could easily still put up 25 ppg with his usual 5 and 6. He's not such a prolific scorer anymore but he's still a great player. You can't stay young forever folks and T-Macs body isn't holding up as much anymore. He still got it in him though and i think this year he may be more motivated.

agobbi17
10-27-2008, 01:01 PM
I dont know. maybe because he has one of the best come backs in sports history against the spurs? or that he has 2 scoring champs? i dont know, just maybe.

barreleffact
10-27-2008, 01:53 PM
Duncan that year got both MVP and Finals MVP, when you get both of them the same year you gotta be the best in the league.

i said arguably, but regadless you cant really compare a big to a wing. mac was dropping some of the best numbers for any wing....duncan just stayed with his normal 20-10...and record has a lot to do with mvp too

JordansBulls
10-27-2008, 02:09 PM
i said arguably, but regadless you cant really compare a big to a wing. mac was dropping some of the best numbers for any wing....duncan just stayed with his normal 20-10...and record has a lot to do with mvp too

Yeah but if you are going to say he is the best in the league or even arguably then he would have to be compared to whomever in the league right?

barreleffact
10-27-2008, 02:20 PM
Yeah but if you are going to say he is the best in the league or even arguably then he would have to be compared to whomever in the league right?

he was an extremely good player that year...that doesnt men his record reflected it. idk their records so i could be wrong, but didnt duncan have a far better record that year? that is a big part of being the league mvp. still it doesnt matter. back in those dats he was an elite player, and considering he's still relatively young its hard to take that status away. esp wen you understand his injuries

thephoenixson28
10-27-2008, 02:25 PM
I think that tmac is still real good,back when he was in orlando he was the only option so that's why he put up big numbers just like kobe did when he didn't have no one around him a couple of years ago besides odom but now that he is in houston he has other options such as shane, and yao and even more so now that they got artest so he doesn't have to look to score that much especially that he has superstars and good role players around him but tell me you wouldn't want him on your team

PhxGiant
10-27-2008, 02:30 PM
What are you talking about hes not considered elite anymore, hes still elite at running an offense and keeping his teams together and making them better but in terms of individual dominance hes not who he once was. But to answer your question about why hes still an effective number 1 option, its because of his ridiculously low turnover rate, for someone to carry a burden as large as McGrady has the last few years its very impressive. And since turnovers are less costly than a missed shot his overall effectiveness isnt as bad as his FG% is made out to be, that and the fact that he couldnt play hurt last year the way he used to. When healthy hes definitely still elite.

Thats why this year is so important for Tmac, with Artest and Yao around he wont have to shoulder such a high % of the teams possessions and if he doesnt replace quantity with quality the team wont go anywhere. No excuses but at the same time if this was 02-03 Tmac or even 04 Tmac, the team would be set.


Well put, i agree 100%.

JordansBulls
10-27-2008, 02:32 PM
What are you talking about hes not considered elite anymore, hes still elite at running an offense and keeping his teams together and making them better but in terms of individual dominance hes not who he once was. But to answer your question about why hes still an effective number 1 option, its because of his ridiculously low turnover rate, for someone to carry a burden as large as McGrady has the last few years its very impressive. And since turnovers are less costly than a missed shot his overall effectiveness isnt as bad as his FG% is made out to be, that and the fact that he couldnt play hurt last year the way he used to. When healthy hes definitely still elite.

Thats why this year is so important for Tmac, with Artest and Yao around he wont have to shoulder such a high % of the teams possessions and if he doesnt replace quantity with quality the team wont go anywhere. No excuses but at the same time if this was 02-03 Tmac or even 04 Tmac, the team would be set.

:nod:

MylesKong
10-27-2008, 02:48 PM
Tayshaun took his heart back in 2003 playoff series. He ain't been right ever since.

Lost Art
10-27-2008, 02:51 PM
Tmac is still very elite. Look beyond his FG% and look at his ability to get to the FT line, look at his assist numbers, look at his rebound numbers for a SG. IMO he's the 2nd or 3rd best SG in the game when healthy.

Chronz
10-27-2008, 04:57 PM
He's not the scorer he use 2 be but he doesn't have 2. Back in Orlando he was the main and basically only option. Now he has a better supporting cast plus his injuries are really holding him back. If he stays healthy he could easily still put up 25 ppg with his usual 5 and 6. He's not such a prolific scorer anymore but he's still a great player. You can't stay young forever folks and T-Macs body isn't holding up as much anymore. He still got it in him though and i think this year he may be more motivated.

You couldnt be any more wrong my friend, Tmac's offensive responsibility hasnt changed much since moving to Houston, the difference is that his teammates proportion of possession usage has shifted, hes no longer the only one dominating, but the role players around him and Yao can never create for themselves. In Orlando Tmacs teammates all spread out their fair share of offensive touches, and in Tmac's defense, it was never the teams offense that cost them victories.

Whats costing the team is Tmacs inability to perform at the level he was once at, thats not a diss its hard for anyone to maintain their peak performance for long especially when they are constantly injured. Tmac has never had to run an offense in Orlando the way hes had to the past few years for Houston, so the loads may differ slightly they are still just as heavy. No team has relied more on 2 players than the Rockets have the past 2 years, its why they went after Artest, Morey is a stats guy so I know he understands this.

Chronz
10-27-2008, 04:59 PM
I think that tmac is still real good,back when he was in orlando he was the only option so that's why he put up big numbers just like kobe did when he didn't have no one around him a couple of years ago besides odom but now that he is in houston he has other options such as shane, and yao and even more so now that they got artest so he doesn't have to look to score that much especially that he has superstars and good role players around him but tell me you wouldn't want him on your team

No just no, hes not putting up the numbers because hes not as good as he used to be. Simple as that, dont make excuses for the man.

Wrightw/Reyes19
10-27-2008, 05:12 PM
He can be clutch, and the man can score 20+ a night if he stays healthy

Fury
10-27-2008, 05:13 PM
cuz he is

Ballah0liC1
10-27-2008, 05:14 PM
i remember when he played the kings it took him 30+ shots to get like 34 points. Thats just trrrble

i remember we played the lakers and it took kobe 40 shots to get 30 all superstars have bad gms, and how is a man overated when for his career he averages 22 pts, 6 rebs, 5 ast, 1 blk and 1 stl per gm

Ballah0liC1
10-27-2008, 05:19 PM
I find him very overrated.

wow martin averages 22 pts on a ****** team tmac averages more of everything and he has good players around him

$KnicksAndKobe$
10-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Yes he is in the class of elites.
He can shoot, defend, make plays, rebound, he is basically a complete player at SG/SF who can make plays like a point, he got the stats to prove it. The only thing missing from his reputation is the MVP which is only given to the best player of the best team who usually has a very good supporting class. This is the year for him to get the ring/mvp because right now he has the best roster that he ever had but there are also the Celtics/Lakers/Hornets who also have great rosters. So ye he is an elite player and DESERVES to be a Hofer with or without a ring/mvp.


!1111!

cmellofan15
10-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Ballah0lic1 I'm sorry did he say Kev was elite??? I must've missed that :rolleyes:

Ballah0liC1
10-27-2008, 05:51 PM
Ballah0lic1 I'm sorry did he say Kev was elite??? I must've missed that :rolleyes:

no not in this thread but how can he say tmac is overated than what is martin, oh yeah get off his dick

futureman
10-27-2008, 05:52 PM
He can't perform under pressure and thats what it takes to be elite. Seeing as he has no no post season success I would have to call him overrated. He is like a sprint car that works all the time except during the race.

sep11ie
10-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Maybe cause of the way he can take over a game like nobody else. You failed to mention he averages almost 6 assists and rebounds a game, runs the offense like a point, plays good d still. If anything he's underrated.

Ballah0liC1
10-27-2008, 05:54 PM
He can't perform under pressure and thats what it takes to be elite. Seeing as he has no no post season success I would have to call him overrated. He is like a sprint car that works all the time except during the race.

as you seem to be a jazz fan he dominated you guys in the playoffs but how do u win a game by ur self

_Sn1P3r_
10-27-2008, 05:56 PM
He's still good but the percentages are horrible. ESpecially when he settles.

DerekRE_3
10-27-2008, 06:05 PM
41.9 % from the field. 29.2% from 3-point. 68% from the line. How inefficient are his numbers?

Tmac sounds like that anti-Kevin Martin. Martin gets:

23.7 ppg 46% shooting, 40% 3 point 87% FT

prash
10-27-2008, 06:22 PM
The guy was the best player on a team that won 22 games last year. In my mind that achievement alone is enough to say he's still an Elite player.. even if his individual stats were craptastic last season.

IversonIsKrazy
10-27-2008, 06:50 PM
i dunno, im not sure.
I mean that memory of 13 points in 1 game against the spurs is always in my mind.
But absolute no post-season threat. Never gone pass the 1st round. i would rank him 4th best SG in the league rite now, after 1. Kobe 2. D-Wade 3. AI 4. T-Mac

goku
10-27-2008, 06:59 PM
i think this year he is more motivated than any other year

NYMetros
10-27-2008, 07:02 PM
I don't have him as a top 10 player, probably top 20, but not top 10. He needs to lead his team further into the playoffs to be considered elite IMO, at least get past the 1st round.

goku
10-27-2008, 07:02 PM
i dunno, im not sure.
I mean that memory of 13 points in 1 game against the spurs is always in my mind.
But absolute no post-season threat. Never gone pass the 1st round. i would rank him 4th best SG in the league rite now, after 1. Kobe 2. D-Wade 3. AI 4. T-Mac

neither has melo gotten out the first round

BRADfromOZ
10-27-2008, 07:11 PM
i would rank him 4th best SG in the league rite now, after 1. Kobe 2. D-Wade 3. AI 4. T-Mac
I have to agree with you on that.

astrosmaniac
10-27-2008, 07:27 PM
i dunno, im not sure.
I mean that memory of 13 points in 1 game against the spurs is always in my mind.
But absolute no post-season threat. Never gone pass the 1st round. i would rank him 4th best SG in the league rite now, after 1. Kobe 2. D-Wade 3. AI 4. T-Mac

hes definitely a playoff threat. i think hes 3rd highest all time in playoff PPG (behind mike and kobe)

Shieldsz
10-27-2008, 07:39 PM
Hes overrated... hes the typical awesome video game player in NBA Live games, and is tall and athletic. So people feel he is amazing.

Kings Faithful
10-27-2008, 07:41 PM
wow martin averages 22 pts on a ****** team tmac averages more of everything and he has good players around him

He never said T-Mac was a bad player..but if you look at 80% of the posts on this thread they seem to agree that T-Mac is overated. At least he is now.

Kings Faithful
10-27-2008, 07:43 PM
coming from a guy who thinks kevin martin is the real deal!? haha
tmac is just off the radar.. he's not as good as kobe, lebron, dwade.. 4th place is somebody no one seems to look at.. he's still a monster. he just doesnt have the passion for the game.. but at the same time on any given night has the killer instinct.. plus the injuries hold him back..

Are you a comedian? or a clown? cause im LMFAOing BIG TIME right now! You should really take up some job in that field. Maby you can be a ESPN analyst! :rolleyes:

BALLER71
10-27-2008, 07:54 PM
Not a single playoff series win?
Get out of here. The guy isn't elite.

Beno7500
10-27-2008, 08:30 PM
everyone assumes that i think martin is better because i think t mac is overrated. you guys are idiots

Big Quett
10-27-2008, 08:55 PM
Tmac sounds like that anti-Kevin Martin. Martin gets:

23.7 ppg 46% shooting, 40% 3 point 87% FT

Yeah and what exactly does he do besides shoot? He doesnt make players around him better and plays ZERO defense. He is a one dimensional player.

T Mac averaged 6 assists and 5 rebounds while averaging 21.6

And what excatly has a Kevin Martin lead done the last two years? NOTHING!
They gone 33- 49 and 38- 44. Didnt sniff the playoffs.

I mean TMAC was taking some bad teams in Orlando to the playoffs. He went to the playoffs 3 out of the 4 years he was there. He was carrying those teams by his self.

Hell even last year he took that team without YAO to the playoffs by his self. You could barely name any of those players before last year.

b_rad23
10-27-2008, 09:01 PM
i remember when he played the kings it took him 30+ shots to get like 34 points. Thats just trrrble

Oh when he played for the Kings. Those years....;)

JIDsanity
10-27-2008, 09:06 PM
Cause people switched him with his cuz after ESPN said don't like Vince Carter no more.
Now they doing the same to T-Mac

JIDsanity
10-27-2008, 09:08 PM
New players = more $$$

BALLER71
10-27-2008, 09:13 PM
Why do you play the game? To go to the Finals and get that ring.
Look at Kobe, I believe he has 2 rings and 3 Finals appearances. D-Wade, one ring, Allen Iverson took a ****** team to the Finals. That's elite.

Now someone tell me what "T-Elite" did in the playoffs?....


Don't worry I'll wait.

astrosmaniac
10-27-2008, 09:17 PM
Why do you play the game? To go to the Finals and get that ring.
Look at Kobe, I believe he has 2 rings and 3 Finals appearances. D-Wade, one ring, Allen Iverson took a ****** team to the Finals. That's elite.

Now someone tell me what "T-Elite" did in the playoffs?....


Don't worry I'll wait.

ill tell you. hes averaged the 3rd highest PPG of all time in the playoffs behind jordan and kobe. and what do those 2 guys you listed with rings have in common? thats right, they had shaq. care to prove me wrong?

dont worry, ill wait

alexander_37
10-27-2008, 09:19 PM
tmac is a HOFer and one of the best scorers in recent years

he is still uber 33t ( yah i said that )

just wait and see he will be ballin like there is no tomorrow

especially since we have taken even more pressure off if he cant score he can just pass off to yao artest or scola damn im excited!!!!!!!!

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-27-2008, 09:19 PM
I find him very overrated.

I find you very overrated.

KMart is overrated, the best player on a bad team... TMac is the best player on a Contendor.

Chronz
10-28-2008, 02:57 AM
He can't perform under pressure and thats what it takes to be elite. Seeing as he has no no post season success I would have to call him overrated. He is like a sprint car that works all the time except during the race.

Thats just foolish, thats pretty weak if thats the extent of your analysis or rankings of players.

barreleffact
10-28-2008, 03:32 AM
Yeah and what exactly does he do besides shoot? He doesnt make players around him better and plays ZERO defense. He is a one dimensional player.

T Mac averaged 6 assists and 5 rebounds while averaging 21.6

And what excatly has a Kevin Martin lead done the last two years? NOTHING!
They gone 33- 49 and 38- 44. Didnt sniff the playoffs.

I mean TMAC was taking some bad teams in Orlando to the playoffs. He went to the playoffs 3 out of the 4 years he was there. He was carrying those teams by his self.

Hell even last year he took that team without YAO to the playoffs by his self. You could barely name any of those players before last year.

thats a conference difference tho. in the east, esp back then those teams may have been 8th seeds.

barreleffact
10-28-2008, 03:34 AM
Why do you play the game? To go to the Finals and get that ring.
Look at Kobe, I believe he has 2 rings and 3 Finals appearances. D-Wade, one ring, Allen Iverson took a ****** team to the Finals. That's elite.

Now someone tell me what "T-Elite" did in the playoffs?....


Don't worry I'll wait.


ill tell you. hes averaged the 3rd highest PPG of all time in the playoffs behind jordan and kobe. and what do those 2 guys you listed with rings have in common? thats right, they had shaq. care to prove me wrong?

dont worry, ill wait

3 rings. 5 finals appearances. and yes, they both had shaq but that is beside the point. kobe is and always was better than t-mac. there really isnt any comparison between the two...in ANY way. i mean mac is better at....anything? and about having the 3rd highest average...who really cares what you average if you dont get out the 1st round. easy to maintain that evergy in ONE series a year. its not like his average is that much higher than anyone. the mans average isnt like 35-40 per game. that would be worth mentioning. its 28. very good? yes. but its still just 1st round statistics.

edit- his playoff scoring is higher than KBB's. even if you erase the 2 bench years. regardless, thats 1st round exits vs deep runs and rings

DerekRE_3
10-28-2008, 05:08 AM
Yeah and what exactly does he do besides shoot? He doesnt make players around him better and plays ZERO defense. He is a one dimensional player.

T Mac averaged 6 assists and 5 rebounds while averaging 21.6

And what excatly has a Kevin Martin lead done the last two years? NOTHING!
They gone 33- 49 and 38- 44. Didnt sniff the playoffs.

I mean TMAC was taking some bad teams in Orlando to the playoffs. He went to the playoffs 3 out of the 4 years he was there. He was carrying those teams by his self.

Hell even last year he took that team without YAO to the playoffs by his self. You could barely name any of those players before last year.

First off...Kevin Martin has never been the go to guy for the Kings. This year is his first year being THE MAN.

2nd...as far as scoring efficiency goes, you cannot compare the two. Martin is clearly better. And he does it without having one of the best big men in basketball (Yao Ming). Despite not being the #1 option on offense last season, Martin lead his team in scoring.

As far as leading a team...both players have never gotten past the 1st round. One guy has been in the league over 10 years, and the other is entering his 5th season. I'd say Kevin Martin has a little more time to prove himself. With T-Macs injury history, and with all of the minutes he has logged in his career, his window is closing fast.

Last year Martin had one of the highest true field goal percentages in the league at 61.8% for shooting guards and lead the entire NBA in made free throws a game. He was also 6th in the league in scoring. All I said before was that Martin was a more efficient scorer than T-Mac. And the stats don't lie.

Tracy McGrady: 21.6 ppg 42% FG 29% 3 point FG% (AWFUL) 68% FT (AWFUL)
Kevin Martin: 23.7 ppg 46% FG 40% 3 point FG% 87% FT

Who's more efficient?


Only two players in the history of the NBA have been potent enough off the dribble and from behind the arc to average eight FTs a game and shoot 40% from three: Michael Jordan and Kevin Martin.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2008/09/16/nba-top-50-kevin-martin-no-23/#cont

ridere46
10-28-2008, 06:25 AM
Tmac is extremely talented and athletic. He has abilities few in the NBA possess. However, IMO, an elite player can only be considerred an elite through his accomplishments. For example, offensive/defensive abilities, stats, playoff appearances and most importantly championships. Having said that, few people come to mind; Kobe, Shaq, KG, Duncan. You could throw in some past players like Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan and Hakeem. People keep bringing up excuses like injuries or not having great teamates or throwing in feeble stats. It's not an excuse. For those of you who think Tmac is an elite player...think about this for a second. Would you group Tmac with these guys? Nahh...I didn't think so. Don't use "Elite" so litely. It dilutes the pool of special players. I like Tmac. I would love to have him in my fav team but I don't consider him an elite player...right now. Houston looks to have a great season though.

EssexRaider
10-28-2008, 09:20 AM
If tracy was traded to your team, you would be pumped

JordansBulls
10-28-2008, 10:10 AM
So we are comparing Kevin Martin to T-mac now?

_Supreme_
10-28-2008, 10:44 AM
So we are comparing Kevin Martin to T-mac now?

I think so :laugh2:

prash
10-28-2008, 11:13 AM
t-mac > kevin martin :D

Kabowdos
10-28-2008, 11:35 AM
I dont know. maybe because he has one of the best come backs in sports history against the spurs? or that he has 2 scoring champs? i dont know, just maybe.

He has won ONE playoff series... his numbers are not great by any means. Very very insufficient. He was good for a few years with the Magic.

Kabowdos
10-28-2008, 11:37 AM
Tracy is the most overrated player in the league.

mrblisterdundee
10-28-2008, 11:39 AM
Your entire argument rests on efficiency, which isn't a good predictor of whether a player is elite. There are volume shooters and effieciency shooters. Tracy McGrady is a volume shooter. Kobe Bryant is a volume shooter. Would you say Kobe Bryant isn't elite because he isn't so efficient? Tracy McGrady is elite (not Hall of Fame eilite) because he can average a large amount of points, while leading his team in assists and getting a substantial amount of rebounds. In other words, he's good at everything.

KnicksorBust
10-28-2008, 12:14 PM
Your entire argument rests on efficiency, which isn't a good predictor of whether a player is elite. There are volume shooters and effieciency shooters. Tracy McGrady is a volume shooter. Kobe Bryant is a volume shooter. Would you say Kobe Bryant isn't elite because he isn't so efficient? Tracy McGrady is elite (not Hall of Fame eilite) because he can average a large amount of points, while leading his team in assists and getting a substantial amount of rebounds. In other words, he's good at everything.

I think Kevin Martin's efficiency should be complemented not downplayed. Don't start acting like being a volume shooter allows you to shoot atrociously. Antoine Walker was a volume shooter and it killed his team.

In regards to T-Mac being elite I have to agree that there is no excuse at this point for not finding a way to win one playoff series. LeBron got to the finals by putting up 25 of his team's last 26 points or something insane vs. the Pistons. That's an elite player. I think there's too many "elite" players in the league. It should only be like a handful of players whose teams succeed and they perpetuate it every year.

DerekRE_3
10-28-2008, 01:12 PM
So we are comparing Kevin Martin to T-mac now?

Just defending my point, that T-Mac last year was a very inefficient scorer who only shot 42%. And for his career he has only shot 43.7% from the field, 33.7% from the 3 point line, and 74.7% from the free throw line. Those don't jump out as "elite" numbers to me, not to mention the fact that in 11 years, he has never lead his team out of the first round. So tell me, how is Tracy McGrady elite?

DODGERS&LAKERS
10-28-2008, 01:16 PM
Just defending my point, that T-Mac last year was a very inefficient scorer who only shot 42%. And for his career he has only shot 43.7% from the field, 33.7% from the 3 point line, and 74.7% from the free throw line. Those don't jump out as "elite" numbers to me, not to mention the fact that in 11 years, he has never lead his team out of the first round. So tell me, how is Tracy McGrady elite?

Ill tell you how................................
























Just give me a minute, Ill think of something.

DerekRE_3
10-28-2008, 01:28 PM
Your entire argument rests on efficiency, which isn't a good predictor of whether a player is elite. There are volume shooters and effieciency shooters. Tracy McGrady is a volume shooter. Kobe Bryant is a volume shooter. Would you say Kobe Bryant isn't elite because he isn't so efficient? Tracy McGrady is elite (not Hall of Fame eilite) because he can average a large amount of points, while leading his team in assists and getting a substantial amount of rebounds. In other words, he's good at everything.

Kobe Bryant shot 46% from the field and 84% from the free throw line last year. Those are pretty efficient numbers. So Kobe may be a volume shooter, but he hits a good amount of those shots. Not to mention Kobe has the rings....

Chronz
10-28-2008, 01:38 PM
Your entire argument rests on efficiency, which isn't a good predictor of whether a player is elite. There are volume shooters and effieciency shooters. Tracy McGrady is a volume shooter. Kobe Bryant is a volume shooter. Would you say Kobe Bryant isn't elite because he isn't so efficient? Tracy McGrady is elite (not Hall of Fame eilite) because he can average a large amount of points, while leading his team in assists and getting a substantial amount of rebounds. In other words, he's good at everything.
Your not making any sense, what do you mean Kobe isnt efficient, hes one of the most efficient scorers of our time.

Tmac's versatility is why hes elite, and his decision making with the ball but you cant just write off the fact that hes not as effective simply as him being a volume shooter. Volume shooters are wasteful of their possessions, though Tmac actually makes his team better with those shots because they all suck at creating a decent one themselves he wont have that luxury this year. With better offensive options around him Tmac had better raise that efficiency up, same for Thornton this year.

Chronz
10-28-2008, 01:39 PM
Ill tell you how................................
























Just give me a minute, Ill think of something.

You done thinking yet or are you just incapable of showing respect, I cant decide which is sadder....

Chronz
10-28-2008, 01:41 PM
Just defending my point, that T-Mac last year was a very inefficient scorer who only shot 42%. And for his career he has only shot 43.7% from the field, 33.7% from the 3 point line, and 74.7% from the free throw line. Those don't jump out as "elite" numbers to me, not to mention the fact that in 11 years, he has never lead his team out of the first round. So tell me, how is Tracy McGrady elite?

Thats because its not much of an analysis

Chronz
10-28-2008, 01:52 PM
In regards to T-Mac being elite I have to agree that there is no excuse at this point for not finding a way to win one playoff series.
Just like there was no excuse for Kobe not winning a single series the past few years when he was unofficially the best player in the game. So if the best player in the game couldnt get it done how could you expect that of anyone else?


LeBron got to the finals by putting up 25 of his team's last 26 points or something insane vs. the Pistons. That's an elite player.
The problem with basing your logic off of 1 game is that your limiting your factual responses, what about the OTHER games? Tmac has had insane playoff LOSSES, where the man did everything he could but rebound every missed shot he forced and make the damn baskets for his teammates. In Orlando the team always rode on Tmac, they didnt have the team defense to stay in games the way the Cavs could for Bron. Their situations and roles on the team are similar and Bron has handled his better for his career but thats different than saying its all Tmacs fault for not getting past the first round. EVERY YEAR the guy raised his game in the playoffs and what made it great to watch was seeing him raise his defensive intensity and just lock down WHOMEVER he was guarding. So if the man was amazing in the regular season and got a **** team to the playoffs then proceeds to elevate his game in the playoffs, how can you say he didnt do it all.




I think there's too many "elite" players in the league. It should only be like a handful of players whose teams succeed and they perpetuate it every year.
Thats the kind of logic that nets James Posey a bigger contract for being essentially the same player he was a year ago but he didnt have that aura of a fresh champion, I dont blame you for thinking that way so long as you dont get carried away with it. You can be the best player in the game and miss the playoffs. Too many factors involved with winning and the majority dont fall on having the single best player in the league.

DerekRE_3
10-28-2008, 01:59 PM
Thats because its not much of an analysis

Yes, Yao was hurt. And he didn't have a ton of guys to pass the ball to and was forced to take difficult shots, which is why he shot 42% from the field. But the 68% from the free throw line stat jumps out. He should be shooting somewhere in the 80's from the free throw line. There is no excuse for that.

Ballah0liC1
10-28-2008, 02:02 PM
3 rings. 5 finals appearances. and yes, they both had shaq but that is beside the point. kobe is and always was better than t-mac. there really isnt any comparison between the two...in ANY way. i mean mac is better at....anything? and about having the 3rd highest average...who really cares what you average if you dont get out the 1st round. easy to maintain that evergy in ONE series a year. its not like his average is that much higher than anyone. the mans average isnt like 35-40 per game. that would be worth mentioning. its 28. very good? yes. but its still just 1st round statistics.

edit- his playoff scoring is higher than KBB's. even if you erase the 2 bench years. regardless, thats 1st round exits vs deep runs and rings

how was he never better than kobe he averaged more points for like 4 years, the only reason kobe is better is because up until the second half of last year he was the only one that could score.

Ballah0liC1
10-28-2008, 02:04 PM
dont get me wrong kobe is the best right now but thats not people were saying a couple of years ago

Chronz
10-28-2008, 02:04 PM
Yes, Yao was hurt. And he didn't have a ton of guys to pass the ball to and was forced to take difficult shots, which is why he shot 42% from the field. But the 68% from the free throw line stat jumps out. He should be shooting somewhere in the 80's from the free throw line. There is no excuse for that.

Oh no doubt, I wasnt talking about last year, I do believe you used the phrase "Career"

DerekRE_3
10-28-2008, 02:08 PM
Oh no doubt, I wasnt talking about last year, I do believe you used the phrase "Career"

Yeah, I did mention his career numbers, that on paper, don't look too great (from an efficiency standpoint). I do realize there is more to it, and he hasn't had the best luck or best supporting cast. But it is still hard for me to call a player elite when he hasn't been past the 1st round of the playoffs.

Ballah0liC1
10-28-2008, 02:19 PM
ok in the playoffs in orlando hes faced the bucks-glenn robinson and ray allen and sam cassel and tmacs best teamate was armstrong, the next year he played the hornets with mashburn and davis and wesley and still tmacs best teamate armstrong,then the pistons the next year who happened to win the championship few years later

barreleffact
10-28-2008, 02:19 PM
how was he never better than kobe he averaged more points for like 4 years, the only reason kobe is better is because up until the second half of last year he was the only one that could score.

el wrongo. kobe came into the league as a beast but played behind pretty solid players. his next year he drooped solid numbers and started on the all-star team while getting 2nd for 6th man of the year. once kobes flourished, he was a threat offensively and defensively for all 48 minutes. he was never better than kobe. idc what you base it off of. kobe would have easily had better stats had he not declared he would not have played for any team other than LA. but because he did, he was drafted lower with less of a chance to show off his skills.

_Supreme_
10-28-2008, 02:26 PM
dont get me wrong Lebron is the best right now but thats not people were saying a couple of years ago

Fixed :whistle:

Jahari Kavi
10-28-2008, 02:44 PM
from a talent stand point he's one of the most gifted players to ever touch a basketball.........................his mental toughness sucks though.....................this is why I refer to him as Shemac.............

Illuminati
10-28-2008, 02:51 PM
he is the second best player in the league behind kobe in my opinion. His number don't show it because he is not the number one option yao is

Chronz
10-28-2008, 03:16 PM
Yeah, I did mention his career numbers, that on paper, don't look too great (from an efficiency standpoint). I do realize there is more to it, and he hasn't had the best luck or best supporting cast. But it is still hard for me to call a player elite when he hasn't been past the 1st round of the playoffs.

No man your still not getting where Im coming from, Tmac was very efficient in his early going, Im talking from a statistical standpoint your evaluation of efficiency is very incomplete. His supporting cast was tailor made for his skills but I do agree with you that he couldve done even MORE with greater support but that guy never stayed healthy in Orlando.

Chronz
10-28-2008, 03:21 PM
he is the second best player in the league behind kobe in my opinion. His number don't show it because he is not the number one option yao is

Tmac is very much still a number 1 option, he was just so bad last year his pt totals dont show it, that coupled with the fact that the Rockets play at one of the slowest paces makes it harder for the general public to recognize this. Hes still playing the same way he always has his entire career, albeit hes passing alot more now but hes essentially becoming Scottie Pippen without the defense and the Rockets need more than that to win a title.

Thats why Im beginning to see the light on the subject, this may very well be his last stab at greatness, after this he slides faster than Drexler did in his final days.

Ballah0liC1
10-28-2008, 03:41 PM
el wrongo. kobe came into the league as a beast but played behind pretty solid players. his next year he drooped solid numbers and started on the all-star team while getting 2nd for 6th man of the year. once kobes flourished, he was a threat offensively and defensively for all 48 minutes. he was never better than kobe. idc what you base it off of. kobe would have easily had better stats had he not declared he would not have played for any team other than LA. but because he did, he was drafted lower with less of a chance to show off his skills.

uhh what? do you know tmac was a backup for three years cause he wasnt given a chance he played behind carter cause christie was the sg and who did kobe play behind he was the starter the second year cause fox was a backup and jones was the starting sf but his first year fox played in front of him what fox was so great :rolleyes:

Ballah0liC1
10-28-2008, 03:44 PM
el wrongo. kobe came into the league as a beast but played behind pretty solid players. his next year he drooped solid numbers and started on the all-star team while getting 2nd for 6th man of the year. once kobes flourished, he was a threat offensively and defensively for all 48 minutes. he was never better than kobe. idc what you base it off of. kobe would have easily had better stats had he not declared he would not have played for any team other than LA. but because he did, he was drafted lower with less of a chance to show off his skills.

ok u wanna put awards he didnt win there since 2001 tmac has been in the top 5 of mvp votes

barreleffact
10-28-2008, 03:53 PM
ok u wanna put awards he didnt win there since 2001 tmac has been in the top 5 of mvp votes

he's gon further than tmac ever has...and in a far rougher conference. forget being top 5. kobe was that a few times(both nash times and the dirk time...i could be mnistaken tho) but regardless top 5 is nothing considering he IS MVP now. u dont wana talk awards because kobe's crushes macs. always has. not a bad thing. kobe was born by 2 proffessional athletes. he was born to be elite

and lol. doug christie was amazing too right? eddie jones and nick van-exel were beasts during kobe's first 2 years. jones is a former all star who has great D and great range(christie too) but regardless...it took mcgrady a trade to be the man. funny...because they traded away kobe's threats so he could be the man.

MTar786
10-28-2008, 04:10 PM
i dunno, im not sure.
I mean that memory of 13 points in 1 game against the spurs is always in my mind.
But absolute no post-season threat. Never gone pass the 1st round. i would rank him 4th best SG in the league rite now, after 1. Kobe 2. D-Wade 3. AI 4. T-Mac

i love AI but its more like this

1. kobe
2. wade
3. tmac (close to wade)
4. ai ( ai is great but not all around player u NEED for a championship.) but he's far ahead of 5-10 in best shooting guards.. but these 3 guys are better)

Shieldsz
10-28-2008, 04:26 PM
What has T-Mac done? NOTHING.

He has had an awesome post presence, and can't do ****. He's always injured, and hes very inconsistent.

Ballah0liC1
10-28-2008, 04:29 PM
how is he always injured many players have missed just as many games as, besides one year, do u fans realize bball is a five man sport and one man cant win