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23LBJCleBrowns
10-24-2008, 05:18 PM
Listen to the announcer in LeBrons first career game, LeBron just dominated that game and everybody thought he was better that expected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpFRV7EMDLU&feature=related

l GeArs l
10-24-2008, 05:22 PM
People think because hes only 23 hes going to get ALOT BETTER. Theirs not much more he can do beside improve his shot or maybe better defense, the lebron that you see now is the lebron that your pretty much going to see for the next 10-12 years, like i said maybe with a better shot or Defensive skills.

legendkillerv2
10-24-2008, 05:35 PM
dude has the makings to be the best player ever.

23LBJCleBrowns
10-24-2008, 05:36 PM
LeBron is the most athletic Player of all time. Who agrees?

Yogi
10-24-2008, 05:37 PM
He's about what I expected.

LAKERS 24/7
10-24-2008, 05:40 PM
He's koo

Draco
10-24-2008, 05:42 PM
What I expected.. and I think he needs to sign a new contract with Chicago. :up:

Yogi
10-24-2008, 05:44 PM
Who here also thinks LeBron is overrated?

23LBJCleBrowns
10-24-2008, 05:50 PM
I think hes far from overrated.

GregOden#1
10-24-2008, 06:06 PM
LeBron is the most athletic Player of all time. Who agrees?

He's not.

Illuminati
10-24-2008, 06:09 PM
LeBron is the most athletic Player of all time. Who agrees?

not me. He is by far the most overrated player of all-time though.

He is not a great free throw shooter or perimeter shooter or defender but yet he might be the best all-time give me a break.

laker1000
10-24-2008, 06:10 PM
He's what i expected, a great player.

philab
10-24-2008, 06:18 PM
not me. He is by far the most overrated player of all-time though.


Jason Kidd might have something to say to that.

GspLAL
10-24-2008, 06:22 PM
If Lebron doesnt develop a shot he's not going to be so great once he gets to his 30s because he's not gonna be able to drive it in like he does now, which is where a lot of his points come from.

#1Mavericksfan
10-24-2008, 06:47 PM
Jason Kidd might have something to say to that.

This is the kinda of stuff I'm talking about...what does Jason Kidd have anything to do with Lebron James? If it wasn't for Jason Kidd the Nets would never have those 2 NBA Finals appearances.

As for Lebron...I never expected him to be bad so he lived up to all the hype.

LAKERS 24/7
10-24-2008, 06:57 PM
not me. He is by far the most overrated player of all-time though.

He is not a great free throw shooter or perimeter shooter or defender but yet he might be the best all-time give me a break.

I agree whole-heartedly.

IndyRealist
10-24-2008, 06:59 PM
not me. He is by far the most overrated player of all-time though.

He is not a great free throw shooter or perimeter shooter or defender but yet he might be the best all-time give me a break.

Illuminati = DeShawn Stevenson?

MiamiHeat
10-24-2008, 07:05 PM
Who here also thinks LeBron is overrated?

hes great and all but overrated
hes not a GOD like people see him as

Buckwheat
10-24-2008, 07:10 PM
This is the kinda of stuff I'm talking about...what does Jason Kidd have anything to do with Lebron James? If it wasn't for Jason Kidd the Nets would never have those 2 NBA Finals appearances.
As for Lebron...I never expected him to be bad so he lived up to all the hype.

And the Cavs would be awesome right now without LeBron! :rolleyes:

No team is carried by one player more than Cleveland. The dude is a pure leader at 23 years of age.

Jason Kidd is by far the most overrated player in the league..

ink
10-24-2008, 07:13 PM
He's what i expected, a great player.

qft

C_Mund
10-24-2008, 07:23 PM
How can he be overrated? Even Jordan didn't make it to the finals until what, his sixth year AND not until Pippen joined the team? Lebron is only going to get better when (..NOT if) he learns to shoot properly and his defense settles in. He's so young, he has forever to learn those things and still be pretty much the best individual player behind Kobe in the meantime.

DreamShaker
10-24-2008, 07:36 PM
Lebron is much better than I expected....but there is still room for improvement....

Lebron needs to post up more....I saw that pointed out by many writers and I watched him in the post and every single time he has his fade away jumper going he's 100% unstoppable...no need to shoot 3's if he perfected that....he needs to work on one on one on the ball defense....he's fully capable as he showed a few stretches against Kobe....but he usually just plays help defense and goes for blocks and rebounds....he needs to diversify on the defensive end to be the greatest ever....

Sox Appeal
10-24-2008, 10:33 PM
LeBron is the most athletic Player of all time. Who agrees?

Tell that to Michael Jordan. :pity:

Hawkeye15
10-24-2008, 10:37 PM
anyone who thinks LeBron is overrated needs to check themselves right away. 23 years old, automatic 30-7-7. Never been done before in modern day. He has the makings of best player ever. And this is coming from a Wolves fan. Seriously people, stop the bias. He is already the best player in the world. And he can barely buy beer

Ph1lly Diehard
10-24-2008, 10:39 PM
What a dumb question.

Of course he's more then anyones expected.

He was supposed to be something special, but predicting someone to be the best player in the league and one of the alltime greats already at this point in his career, nobody could have expected that out of him.

Hawkeye15
10-24-2008, 10:39 PM
hes great and all but overrated
hes not a GOD like people see him as

don't be bitter because he has passed up your homeboy. LeBron is better than Wade, and no Miami fan out there could prove otherwise, except bringing up the ring, in which case I will bring up Mr O'Neal.

Sox Appeal
10-24-2008, 10:56 PM
anyone who thinks LeBron is overrated needs to check themselves right away. 23 years old, automatic 30-7-7. Never been done before in modern day. He has the makings of best player ever. And this is coming from a Wolves fan. Seriously people, stop the bias. He is already the best player in the world. And he can barely buy beer

:nod:

cmstophe
10-24-2008, 11:20 PM
People think because hes only 23 hes going to get ALOT BETTER. Theirs not much more he can do beside improve his shot or maybe better defense, the lebron that you see now is the lebron that your pretty much going to see for the next 10-12 years, like i said maybe with a better shot or Defensive skills.

So in other words:

he can get better.

Sox Appeal
10-24-2008, 11:27 PM
How can he be overrated? Even Jordan didn't make it to the finals until what, his sixth year AND not until Pippen joined the team? Lebron is only going to get better when (..NOT if) he learns to shoot properly and his defense settles in. He's so young, he has forever to learn those things and still be pretty much the best individual player behind Kobe in the meantime.

Jordan was also playing against the Bird teams at their peak, and the Pistons when that won multiple Championships in the 80's.

Both of those teams would demolish any team in the NBA today.

l GeArs l
10-24-2008, 11:31 PM
Lebron is overrated.

l GeArs l
10-24-2008, 11:33 PM
So in other words:

he can get better.

NO what i mean is that People put the excuse that he can get alot better just because hes 23, Which isn't true. And like some posted earlyer he better develop a shot but in 7-8 years because hes not going to be able to drive in like before, and is going to start to have to make a living making some shots so that he can at least get more space to get to the rim. Just like jordan did.

codes238
10-24-2008, 11:56 PM
People think because hes only 23 hes going to get ALOT BETTER. Theirs not much more he can do beside improve his shot or maybe better defense, the lebron that you see now is the lebron that your pretty much going to see for the next 10-12 years, like i said maybe with a better shot or Defensive skills.

yea thats great guy, but you forgot to mention that when he improves his outside shooting and defense and gets more experience, he's gonna become completely unstoppable and maybe even be the G.O.A.T. if he can stay healthy

philab
10-25-2008, 02:03 AM
NO what i mean is that People put the excuse that he can get alot better just because hes 23, Which isn't true. And like some posted earlyer he better develop a shot but in 7-8 years because hes not going to be able to drive in like before, and is going to start to have to make a living making some shots so that he can at least get more space to get to the rim. Just like jordan did.


I don't quite get this. You appear to be trying to take something away from LeBron because "he can get better." Everyone in the league can get better. Jordan could have been better. There's always room for improvement.

Yes, we all know LeBron could improve his jumpshot, his post-game, and his FT% and 3PT%. Regardless, fact of the matter is that he's the best player in the league. Ask the experts -- they all agree. It might not look as pretty or be as traditional as Kobe at times, but that doesn't make it not true.

Your argument is completely bogus, though. You assume that he's come close to hitting his ceiling. That's obviously not true. His ceiling his higher than anyone who's ever played the game. I have no clue whether he'll come anywhere close to his ceiling or whether he'll even improve past last year. Either way, though, your argument is just stupid. It's like you're implying that no one improves past the age of 23 or something.

Of course, when he loses his athleticism he'll decline, but that can be said of anyone in the league. And he's only 23 -- he's still got a good 7 or 8 years before age starts to set in. When it's all said and done, he'll be the best player of the post-Jordan era (up until when he retires) EASILY, even if he doesn't improve from where he is now. All this LeBron is overrated ******** is just ridiculous -- it's obvious anyone that says that doesn't watch the games.

Chronz
10-25-2008, 02:21 AM
I wish I got to see him play when defenses were getting really tricky, as soon as the league went to the no-handcheck policy Bron was in his 2nd season and benefited more than anyone in the league. How good would he have been had he came in 1999 instead?

cmstophe
10-25-2008, 09:13 AM
I'm sorry, but saying he "won't get much better" and then saying his defense/shot can be improved is kind of contradictory.

I don't really care if you think in 8 years he won't be able to drive anymore. Lebron has improved drastically every season in the NBA, and I expect both his shot and defense to be even better this year. His defense was already good last year, so it's his shot I will be looking for improvement in mostly.

JayW_1023
10-25-2008, 09:17 AM
Lebron is much better than I expected....but there is still room for improvement....

Lebron needs to post up more....I saw that pointed out by many writers and I watched him in the post and every single time he has his fade away jumper going he's 100% unstoppable...no need to shoot 3's if he perfected that....he needs to work on one on one on the ball defense....he's fully capable as he showed a few stretches against Kobe....but he usually just plays help defense and goes for blocks and rebounds....he needs to diversify on the defensive end to be the greatest ever....

Great post. I definately agree here.

If LeBron learns to be a stopper his physical attributes would make him a monster on that end.

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 12:44 PM
anyone who thinks LeBron is overrated needs to check themselves right away. 23 years old, automatic 30-7-7. Never been done before in modern day. He has the makings of best player ever. And this is coming from a Wolves fan. Seriously people, stop the bias. He is already the best player in the world. And he can barely buy beer

He is turning 24...He has been able to buy beer for a while.

Anyways, I do not think he was as good as expected. Is he the chosen one yet? Is he better than MJ? Not right now. Until he does then he has not lived up to expectations. These are the expectations Nike, ESPN, and himself brought on so don't tell me I am being unfair.

Lebron is a great player, but he relies HEAVILY on his athleticism and body. His offense consists of using his strength to barrell to the basket. He is an awful shooter at 35% midrange and 31% from three-point range. He lacks footwork (always been a big knock on him) and never, ever goes into the post despite his size advantage (an even bigger knock on him). His man defense is porous.

Here is my question. What is going to happen when Lebron loses his athleticism? We saw MJ able to shoot the jumpers and focus on defense while using his footwork in the post to create baskets. We are currently seeing Kobe focusing more on defense and shooting jumpers while using his supreme post skills over guards.

We saw all these greats able to use their basketball IQ and skills to get them through the age of 30 and beyond when they don't have their body and athleticism to rely on.

What is Lebron going to do? He can't shoot the basketball with any consistency. He doesn't go in the post. He lacks the footwork in the post, etc. IMO, Lebron without his athleticism won't be much of a player, which will hurt his all-time status. That is why I have so much respect for the MJ, Bryant, and even Duncan's of the NBA. They don't need their athleticism to be great just their skills and IQ. Lebron seems to need that athleticism to gain an edge.

MiamiHeat
10-25-2008, 12:50 PM
don't be bitter because he has passed up your homeboy. LeBron is better than Wade, and no Miami fan out there could prove otherwise, except bringing up the ring, in which case I will bring up Mr O'Neal.

listen here
mr. wolves fan that hate on miami heat because wolves suck
you think lebron is a god like people see him as?
simple question yes or no?

Lebron23
10-25-2008, 02:17 PM
It's LeBron's chance to dethrone the Boston Celtics, and destroy the Los Angeles Locos in the 2009 NBA Season.

That will solidify is status as one of the best player in the history of the NBA because he have the chance to defeat the top 2 teams in the NBA.

BALLER71
10-25-2008, 02:40 PM
Best player of our time... nuff said.

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 02:40 PM
It's LeBron's chance to dethrone the Boston Celtics, and destroy the Los Angeles Locos in the 2009 NBA Season.

That will solidify is status as one of the best player in the history of the NBA because he have the chance to defeat the top 2 teams in the NBA.

One season or one game doesn't make a player one of the all-time greats. It has to be a whole body of work of many seasons of being great. Lebron has to accomplish that first and foremost before he is crowned a great.

BALLER71
10-25-2008, 02:41 PM
listen here
mr. wolves fan that hate on miami heat because wolves suck
you think lebron is a god like people see him as?
simple question yes or no?

You know I love the Heat but Lebron > Wade.

philab
10-25-2008, 03:24 PM
He is turning 24...He has been able to buy beer for a while.

Anyways, I do not think he was as good as expected. Is he the chosen one yet? Is he better than MJ? Not right now. Until he does then he has not lived up to expectations. These are the expectations Nike, ESPN, and himself brought on so don't tell me I am being unfair.

Lebron is a great player, but he relies HEAVILY on his athleticism and body. His offense consists of using his strength to barrell to the basket. He is an awful shooter at 35% midrange and 31% from three-point range. He lacks footwork (always been a big knock on him) and never, ever goes into the post despite his size advantage (an even bigger knock on him). His man defense is porous.

Here is my question. What is going to happen when Lebron loses his athleticism? We saw MJ able to shoot the jumpers and focus on defense while using his footwork in the post to create baskets. We are currently seeing Kobe focusing more on defense and shooting jumpers while using his supreme post skills over guards.

We saw all these greats able to use their basketball IQ and skills to get them through the age of 30 and beyond when they don't have their body and athleticism to rely on.

What is Lebron going to do? He can't shoot the basketball with any consistency. He doesn't go in the post. He lacks the footwork in the post, etc. IMO, Lebron without his athleticism won't be much of a player, which will hurt his all-time status. That is why I have so much respect for the MJ, Bryant, and even Duncan's of the NBA. They don't need their athleticism to be great just their skills and IQ. Lebron seems to need that athleticism to gain an edge.

ESPN and Nike put some huge expectations on him, but there were also lots of critics saying he was all hype. Don't ignore half the picture. Plus, for how high the expectations were from ESPN and Nike, no one could have lived up to that. I'd say that at the age of 23, he's lived up to expectations about as much as he could have.

This whole "relies heavily on athleticism" argument just doesn't make sense to me. Sure, the guy is either the first or second most physically gifted player in the league (along with Howard), but why does everyone bring that up as if it's some kind of knock against him? Dwight Howard relies HEAVILY on his athleticism too, but instead of trashing him, everyone just drools over his body and his athleticism like a bunch of schoolgirls. I don't care if the guy is 10' tall and just has to drop the ball in the basket -- it's all about results. One way or another, LeBron is the most effective (i.e., "best") player in the league.

"Without his athleticism he won't be much of a player"? That can be said about any player in the league.

Now, if your concerns are with how he'll age if he never learns to dominate without relying so much on athleticism, okay -- that's a valid concern. A couple of things, though . . .

First, that's about 7 or 8 years away. He'll have 25,000-30,000 points by then at this rate. With those numbers, he's going down with the greats, no question.

Second, I just don't know why everyone assumes that he WON'T develop a post game, a better shot, etc. I'm not saying you have to assume he WILL, but remember the guy is only 23. He has plenty of time. Jordan at that age was coming off an 18-game season ended by an injury. His scoring average dropped from 28.2 his rookie season to 22.7 per. Jordan didn't shoot over 20% from 3PT until he was 25! Kobe was coming off a 68-game season at that age (his longest yet) where he shot 46.4% and 30.5% from 3PT. In fact, Kobe's first four seasons as a starter, he put up 26.7, 31.9, 30.5, and 25.0 3PT% marks. And he was two years older by that last one (next year he went 38.3%). Looks like it took Kobe awhile to develop a shot, too. In fact, Kobe's never shot over 47% from the field for a season, EVER! And people like to compare him to Jordan . . . :pity:

(Just a side note, by the way, Mike Brown said that LeBron's defense is very underrated and that he's gotten much better also -- calls him one of the better defenders in the game. Yeah, he's the coach, but the guy does know defense. Take it for what it is, I guess.)

LeBron gets trashed unnecessarily so much that it's really just comical. I guess that's the price that comes with being so hyped, but whatever. Those who actually watch and understand basketball give the man his rightful props.

OY!
10-25-2008, 03:27 PM
He is turning 24...He has been able to buy beer for a while.

Anyways, I do not think he was as good as expected. Is he the chosen one yet? Is he better than MJ? Not right now. Until he does then he has not lived up to expectations. These are the expectations Nike, ESPN, and himself brought on so don't tell me I am being unfair.

Lebron is a great player, but he relies HEAVILY on his athleticism and body. His offense consists of using his strength to barrell to the basket. He is an awful shooter at 35% midrange and 31% from three-point range. He lacks footwork (always been a big knock on him) and never, ever goes into the post despite his size advantage (an even bigger knock on him). His man defense is porous.

Here is my question. What is going to happen when Lebron loses his athleticism? We saw MJ able to shoot the jumpers and focus on defense while using his footwork in the post to create baskets. We are currently seeing Kobe focusing more on defense and shooting jumpers while using his supreme post skills over guards.

We saw all these greats able to use their basketball IQ and skills to get them through the age of 30 and beyond when they don't have their body and athleticism to rely on.

What is Lebron going to do? He can't shoot the basketball with any consistency. He doesn't go in the post. He lacks the footwork in the post, etc. IMO, Lebron without his athleticism won't be much of a player, which will hurt his all-time status. That is why I have so much respect for the MJ, Bryant, and even Duncan's of the NBA. They don't need their athleticism to be great just their skills and IQ. Lebron seems to need that athleticism to gain an edge.

i was gonna say something similer to this but you posted it first, great post :clap:

OY!
10-25-2008, 03:29 PM
"Without his athleticism he won't be much of a player"? That can be said about any player in the league.



larry bird and every white player in the league has something to say about that.

philab
10-25-2008, 03:36 PM
larry bird and every white player in the league has something to say about that.


Uh, Bird was 6'9" and could move very well. People like that aren't just walking around the streets everyday. He might not have been as athletic as some, but he was still an extraordinary athlete.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-25-2008, 03:44 PM
Yea but it's crazy how people expected him to be this good when he was a rookie. wich was flat out stupid.

MiamiHeat
10-25-2008, 05:00 PM
You know I love the Heat but Lebron > Wade.

i never said wade was better,
i didnt even bring wade up
i just said lebron james was great but he is overrated
because he isnt a god like people see him as

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 07:01 PM
ESPN and Nike put some huge expectations on him, but there were also lots of critics saying he was all hype. Don't ignore half the picture. Plus, for how high the expectations were from ESPN and Nike, no one could have lived up to that. I'd say that at the age of 23, he's lived up to expectations about as much as he could have.

This whole "relies heavily on athleticism" argument just doesn't make sense to me. Sure, the guy is either the first or second most physically gifted player in the league (along with Howard), but why does everyone bring that up as if it's some kind of knock against him? Dwight Howard relies HEAVILY on his athleticism too, but instead of trashing him, everyone just drools over his body and his athleticism like a bunch of schoolgirls. I don't care if the guy is 10' tall and just has to drop the ball in the basket -- it's all about results. One way or another, LeBron is the most effective (i.e., "best") player in the league.

"Without his athleticism he won't be much of a player"? That can be said about any player in the league.

Now, if your concerns are with how he'll age if he never learns to dominate without relying so much on athleticism, okay -- that's a valid concern. A couple of things, though . . .

First, that's about 7 or 8 years away. He'll have 25,000-30,000 points by then at this rate. With those numbers, he's going down with the greats, no question.

Second, I just don't know why everyone assumes that he WON'T develop a post game, a better shot, etc. I'm not saying you have to assume he WILL, but remember the guy is only 23. He has plenty of time. Jordan at that age was coming off an 18-game season ended by an injury. His scoring average dropped from 28.2 his rookie season to 22.7 per. Jordan didn't shoot over 20% from 3PT until he was 25! Kobe was coming off a 68-game season at that age (his longest yet) where he shot 46.4% and 30.5% from 3PT. In fact, Kobe's first four seasons as a starter, he put up 26.7, 31.9, 30.5, and 25.0 3PT% marks. And he was two years older by that last one (next year he went 38.3%). Looks like it took Kobe awhile to develop a shot, too. In fact, Kobe's never shot over 47% from the field for a season, EVER! And people like to compare him to Jordan . . . :pity:

(Just a side note, by the way, Mike Brown said that LeBron's defense is very underrated and that he's gotten much better also -- calls him one of the better defenders in the game. Yeah, he's the coach, but the guy does know defense. Take it for what it is, I guess.)

LeBron gets trashed unnecessarily so much that it's really just comical. I guess that's the price that comes with being so hyped, but whatever. Those who actually watch and understand basketball give the man his rightful props.

I have the same knock on Howard. It is a legitimate knock and I will explain why...

It can't be said about every player in the league. I gave examples of players, MJ and Kobe, who did very well once they lost some of their athletic abilities.

Yes, that is exactly my concern. I don't think he will have much longevity. I think he will be what Shaq is currently except a lot sooner. Once his athleticism dies out then we will see what the kind of player Lebron James truly is.

:laugh2: at 30,000 points by age 30. I doubt even think he is on pace for that. He has been in the league for 5 years and has around 10,000 points. Are you saying in 7 years, he is going to get 20,000 points? That means he will have to average 35 PPG for the next 7 seasons and stay COMPLETELY healthy. Hahahaha. Right muh man. Please take off those rose-colored glasses.

Lebron never goes into the post though. AT ALL. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were already exhibiting post skills at this age. Lebron literally almost never goes into the post and has almost no footwork there. I'm not going to assume anything like that. He is turning 24 and has still not realized his size advantage in the post. Yes, that is a knock on his IQ.

I find it funny you bring up Bryant and Jordan's three-point shooting numbers yet fail to realize a few things:

MJ and Kobe did not shoot a lot of threes...at all. The most threes Kobe took was at 200. The most threes that MJ took was 66. Lebron? He has taken a whopping 379 threes in a single season. Yet he is a horrible shooter. He doesn't realize this while MJ and Kobe did. Yes, another knock on his IQ.

Kobe and MJ always had the form, but were still developing their form...Have you seen Lebrons form? His form is absolutely awful. It is extremely ugly to watch.

The midrange game. Kobe and MJ were solid in the mid-range game. Lebron is still porous in that area.

MJ and Kobe made that fault up by being great defenders. Young MJ and Young Kobe are arguably two of the greatest wing defenders of all time. Lebron? He is an atrocious man defender. He is ok in the passing lanes, but it doesn't make up for his terrible man-on-man defense.

Mike Brown is Lebron's coach. Him and Ferry are trying desperately to keep Lebron in Cleveland. I am sure they would proclaim him God just to see him stay in a Cavs uniform. I will take what he says with a grain of salt.

R. Johnson#3
10-25-2008, 07:06 PM
He was expected to be the best player since Michael Jordan so no, he's not better than expected.

ShaunRiching9
10-25-2008, 07:22 PM
hes a bust, no but honestly he is what i expected maybe a bit better

hotpotato1092
10-25-2008, 07:24 PM
If LeBron develops a shot... he might not only surpass MJ, he might leave him in the dust. That athletic ability with a shot, a just don't see how anybody could be up to that. That'd basically be adding 6-8 points per game to his totals without adding any shots. He could concievably average 35-10-8 at some point. He isn't MJ yet, but if he gets a shot he can surpass him easily.

Hawkeye15
10-25-2008, 07:55 PM
He is turning 24...He has been able to buy beer for a while.

Anyways, I do not think he was as good as expected. Is he the chosen one yet? Is he better than MJ? Not right now. Until he does then he has not lived up to expectations. These are the expectations Nike, ESPN, and himself brought on so don't tell me I am being unfair.

Lebron is a great player, but he relies HEAVILY on his athleticism and body. His offense consists of using his strength to barrell to the basket. He is an awful shooter at 35% midrange and 31% from three-point range. He lacks footwork (always been a big knock on him) and never, ever goes into the post despite his size advantage (an even bigger knock on him). His man defense is porous.

Here is my question. What is going to happen when Lebron loses his athleticism? We saw MJ able to shoot the jumpers and focus on defense while using his footwork in the post to create baskets. We are currently seeing Kobe focusing more on defense and shooting jumpers while using his supreme post skills over guards.

We saw all these greats able to use their basketball IQ and skills to get them through the age of 30 and beyond when they don't have their body and athleticism to rely on.

What is Lebron going to do? He can't shoot the basketball with any consistency. He doesn't go in the post. He lacks the footwork in the post, etc. IMO, Lebron without his athleticism won't be much of a player, which will hurt his all-time status. That is why I have so much respect for the MJ, Bryant, and even Duncan's of the NBA. They don't need their athleticism to be great just their skills and IQ. Lebron seems to need that athleticism to gain an edge.

Is he better than MJ at 23? Um, hell yes. And MJ didn't have a very good jumper at that age either, he had to develop it. MJ didn't post up until he was in the league a while. I know you are a Kobe fan, and it eats you up that there is a guy now who is at his level now, while Kobe in his prime, and will be far better at 29 than Kobe is now. He is better than expected. In modern day basketball, ie, anything in the last 30 years let's say, he is the best 23 year old player hands down. And that is, as you have so kindly pointed out, with a lot of room to improve. That jumper will come. His defense will come. If he progresses, and wins a few titles, which I can't see not happening, he is the best player ever.

MiamiHeat
10-25-2008, 07:57 PM
If LeBron develops a shot... he might not only surpass MJ, he might leave him in the dust. That athletic ability with a shot, a just don't see how anybody could be up to that. That'd basically be adding 6-8 points per game to his totals without adding any shots. He could concievably average 35-10-8 at some point. He isn't MJ yet, but if he gets a shot he can surpass him easily.

no...:pity:
in the dust?

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 08:05 PM
Is he better than MJ at 23? Um, hell yes. And MJ didn't have a very good jumper at that age either, he had to develop it. MJ didn't post up until he was in the league a while. I know you are a Kobe fan, and it eats you up that there is a guy now who is at his level now, while Kobe in his prime, and will be far better at 29 than Kobe is now. He is better than expected. In modern day basketball, ie, anything in the last 30 years let's say, he is the best 23 year old player hands down. And that is, as you have so kindly pointed out, with a lot of room to improve. That jumper will come. His defense will come. If he progresses, and wins a few titles, which I can't see not happening, he is the best player ever.

MJ had good form though. LBJ has one of the ugliest shots in the NBA.

:laugh2: at your Kobe fan comment.

Jumpers will come with horrible form?

Defense will come although he is already 24 years old and Kobe and MJ were great defensive players way before then?

The best player ever can be a player who doesn't post, shoots porous from midrange, shoots porous from 3 pt. range, has bad man to man defense, hinders his teammates capabilities, and has below average footwork? I didn't know that...

Hawkeye15
10-25-2008, 08:08 PM
I have the same knock on Howard. It is a legitimate knock and I will explain why...

It can't be said about every player in the league. I gave examples of players, MJ and Kobe, who did very well once they lost some of their athletic abilities.

Yes, that is exactly my concern. I don't think he will have much longevity. I think he will be what Shaq is currently except a lot sooner. Once his athleticism dies out then we will see what the kind of player Lebron James truly is.

:laugh2: at 30,000 points by age 30. I doubt even think he is on pace for that. He has been in the league for 5 years and has around 10,000 points. Are you saying in 7 years, he is going to get 20,000 points? That means he will have to average 35 PPG for the next 7 seasons and stay COMPLETELY healthy. Hahahaha. Right muh man. Please take off those rose-colored glasses.

Lebron never goes into the post though. AT ALL. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were already exhibiting post skills at this age. Lebron literally almost never goes into the post and has almost no footwork there. I'm not going to assume anything like that. He is turning 24 and has still not realized his size advantage in the post. Yes, that is a knock on his IQ.

I find it funny you bring up Bryant and Jordan's three-point shooting numbers yet fail to realize a few things:

MJ and Kobe did not shoot a lot of threes...at all. The most threes Kobe took was at 200. The most threes that MJ took was 66. Lebron? He has taken a whopping 379 threes in a single season. Yet he is a horrible shooter. He doesn't realize this while MJ and Kobe did. Yes, another knock on his IQ.

Kobe and MJ always had the form, but were still developing their form...Have you seen Lebrons form? His form is absolutely awful. It is extremely ugly to watch.

The midrange game. Kobe and MJ were solid in the mid-range game. Lebron is still porous in that area.

MJ and Kobe made that fault up by being great defenders. Young MJ and Young Kobe are arguably two of the greatest wing defenders of all time. Lebron? He is an atrocious man defender. He is ok in the passing lanes, but it doesn't make up for his terrible man-on-man defense.

Mike Brown is Lebron's coach. Him and Ferry are trying desperately to keep Lebron in Cleveland. I am sure they would proclaim him God just to see him stay in a Cavs uniform. I will take what he says with a grain of salt.


Kobe is 29, he hasn't lost his athletic ability yet, so how do you know what he will be when he does lose it? And you may want to double check the three point claim you made, you say LeBron shot a whopping 379 of them. Kobe has shot, 387, 518, 397, and 415 in the last 4 seasons respectively, and lives at the top of the NBA in most 3's attempted. Now, both LeBron and Kobe are forces to take some ill advised 3's late in the shot clock, so thier percentages will never be that great. And since you love stats so much, Kobe has never gotten the apg, or rpg that LeBron gets, and LeBron averages just as many, actually more, spg and bpg, as well as taking his scoring title away from him. And bring up rings all you want, what has Kobe done since the most physically dominant player ever left town? And please don't compare MJ and Kobe on defense. Kobe making all team defense is a slap to a lot of really good defenders. Kobe is adequate defending, but he gets minimal steals, and is not in the same league as Artest, Bell, Bowen, for example. I am not Kobe hating, I am sticking up for the best player of all time, and the man who will probably surpass him. Kobe will get his place in history, as a top 25 player most likely. But he isn't in MJ's class, and LeBron is already arguably as good as him, many say better, and isn't Kobe in his prime? LeBron hasn't even entered his yet.

Hawkeye15
10-25-2008, 08:10 PM
MJ had good form though. LBJ has one of the ugliest shots in the NBA.

:laugh2: at your Kobe fan comment.

Jumpers will come with horrible form?

Defense will come although he is already 24 years old and Kobe and MJ were great defensive players way before then?

The best player ever can be a player who doesn't post, shoots porous from midrange, shoots porous from 3 pt. range, has bad man to man defense, hinders his teammates capabilities, and has below average footwork? I didn't know that...


apparently there is a lot you don't know. There isn't a player in history that is as unstoppable as LeBron when he gets steam. Never. And guys with that size and ability only get better. Period. Time will tell, and then you can move onto whatever other Laker you want to ride.

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 08:30 PM
Kobe is 29, he hasn't lost his athletic ability yet, so how do you know what he will be when he does lose it? And you may want to double check the three point claim you made, you say LeBron shot a whopping 379 of them. Kobe has shot, 387, 518, 397, and 415 in the last 4 seasons respectively, and lives at the top of the NBA in most 3's attempted. Now, both LeBron and Kobe are forces to take some ill advised 3's late in the shot clock, so thier percentages will never be that great. And since you love stats so much, Kobe has never gotten the apg, or rpg that LeBron gets, and LeBron averages just as many, actually more, spg and bpg, as well as taking his scoring title away from him. And bring up rings all you want, what has Kobe done since the most physically dominant player ever left town? And please don't compare MJ and Kobe on defense. Kobe making all team defense is a slap to a lot of really good defenders. Kobe is adequate defending, but he gets minimal steals, and is not in the same league as Artest, Bell, Bowen, for example. I am not Kobe hating, I am sticking up for the best player of all time, and the man who will probably surpass him. Kobe will get his place in history, as a top 25 player most likely. But he isn't in MJ's class, and LeBron is already arguably as good as him, many say better, and isn't Kobe in his prime? LeBron hasn't even entered his yet.

Kobe is 30. He has not lost his athletic ability? How old are you, 10? Kobe has obviously lost much of his athletic ability.

Reading comprehension, muh man (again, are you 10?). I was speaking of their first 5 seasons...Because the whole comparison was that LBJ is a bad shooter at this age and so was Kobe and MJ. I pointed out the fact that Kobe and MJ were smart and didn't take a lot of threes because they weren't good three-point shooters. As they got older, they started to shoot more threes. LBJ doesn't seem to understand this.

Kobe and LBJ play different positions on offense and on defense. Kobe plays SG while Lebron plays SF. Kobe is obviously going to get less rebounds. Here is the true measuring stick:

Kobe leads all shooting guards in RPG. Lebron does not lead all small forwards in RPG.

On offense, Kobe plays SG/SF in the triangle while Lebron plays PG in the Lebron offense. Lebron handles the ball...the whole time. He dominates the ball like no other, to the detriment of his team at times. The fact that Kobe averaged over 5 APG in the triangle offense is a testament to his passing ability. Even MJ wasn't capable of doing that for a while because the triangle offense is notorious for not having high assist averages.

Battier gets minimal steals. Who cares? BTW--When has nearly 2 SPG been considered minimal? I must've not gotten that memo.

Anyways, Kobe is just as good as MJ defensively, if not better. Call me a Kobe fan all you want. It will not change my opinion. For all the coaches, basketball players, and analysts that I have talked to and have had discussions with, it is mostly always the same sentiment. MJ is an overrated defender and Kobe is an underrated defender. People wonder why the Bulls never beat the Pistons until Scotte. People forget that Dumars/Thomas/Dantley would all eat Jordan up. I just had to get that off my chest.

Top 25 only? Wow. I would say Kobe is top 15. Three championships, MVP, 2 All-Star MVPs, 10 All-Star selections, 10 NBA selections, 8 defensive selections, etc. PM me 24 players that you think are better than Kobe all-time. That should be funny.

How do we know Lebron can even get to his supposed prime? Lebron has some big longevity questions. We will see...

AirJordanXVIII
10-25-2008, 08:32 PM
I dont think we have a better player than MJ here, but I think he's gonna get pretty damn close to being MJ2.

Hawkeye15
10-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Kobe is 30. He has not lost his athletic ability? How old are you, 10? Kobe has obviously lost much of his athletic ability.

Reading comprehension, muh man (again, are you 10?). I was speaking of their first 5 seasons...Because the whole comparison was that LBJ is a bad shooter at this age and so was Kobe and MJ. I pointed out the fact that Kobe and MJ were smart and didn't take a lot of threes because they weren't good three-point shooters. As they got older, they started to shoot more threes. LBJ doesn't seem to understand this.

Kobe and LBJ play different positions on offense and on defense. Kobe plays SG while Lebron plays SF. Kobe is obviously going to get less rebounds. Here is the true measuring stick:

Kobe leads all shooting guards in RPG. Lebron does not lead all small forwards in RPG.

On offense, Kobe plays SG/SF in the triangle while Lebron plays PG in the Lebron offense. Lebron handles the ball...the whole time. He dominates the ball like no other, to the detriment of his team at times. The fact that Kobe averaged over 5 APG in the triangle offense is a testament to his passing ability. Even MJ wasn't capable of doing that for a while because the triangle offense is notorious for not having high assist averages.

Battier gets minimal steals. Who cares? BTW--When has nearly 2 SPG been considered minimal? I must've not gotten that memo.

Anyways, Kobe is just as good as MJ defensively, if not better. Call me a Kobe fan all you want. It will not change my opinion. For all the coaches, basketball players, and analysts that I have talked to and have had discussions with, it is mostly always the same sentiment. MJ is an overrated defender and Kobe is an underrated defender. People wonder why the Bulls never beat the Pistons until Scotte. People forget that Dumars/Thomas/Dantley would all eat Jordan up. I just had to get that off my chest.

Top 25 only? Wow. I would say Kobe is top 15. Three championships, MVP, 2 All-Star MVPs, 10 All-Star selections, 10 NBA selections, 8 defensive selections, etc. PM me 24 players that you think are better than Kobe all-time. That should be funny.

How do we know Lebron can even get to his supposed prime? Lebron has some big longevity questions. We will see...


How about we agree to disagree. And thanks for the comprehension thing, I am old enough that I didn't live on the computer like the fat kid generation of the last 20 years. I type, its final, get over it. I think if Kobe took a dump in your front yard, you would box it up and keep it on the mantle. So, I don't respect your opinion on pretty much every board here. You have the right to do the same to my opinions, I could really care less. I look at it withough bias, because I am not a fan of the Bulls, Lakers, or Cavs. And I am 33. Old enough to have actually watched Michael Jordan, unlike many of the posters on this board. Fact is, without Shaq in his prime, Kobe has 0 rings. And LeBron's stats are already better. And he is a kid. 23 is a kid. Unless you are that age, which I suspect you are. You're bias knows no boundries. Have a nice day

cahawk
10-25-2008, 10:26 PM
Lebron is the best, he is destroying all of kobe's records that were so hyped.
Almost Wilt Chamberlin like, the way Lebron came in and was a force immediately.

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 10:54 PM
Lebron is the best, he is destroying all of kobe's records that were so hyped.
Almost Wilt Chamberlin like, the way Lebron came in and was a force immediately.

Yes because Lebron obviously won MVPs in his first few years and averaged 50 PPG. :rolleyes:

ARMIN12NBA
10-25-2008, 10:56 PM
How about we agree to disagree. And thanks for the comprehension thing, I am old enough that I didn't live on the computer like the fat kid generation of the last 20 years. I type, its final, get over it. I think if Kobe took a dump in your front yard, you would box it up and keep it on the mantle. So, I don't respect your opinion on pretty much every board here. You have the right to do the same to my opinions, I could really care less. I look at it withough bias, because I am not a fan of the Bulls, Lakers, or Cavs. And I am 33. Old enough to have actually watched Michael Jordan, unlike many of the posters on this board. Fact is, without Shaq in his prime, Kobe has 0 rings. And LeBron's stats are already better. And he is a kid. 23 is a kid. Unless you are that age, which I suspect you are. You're bias knows no boundries. Have a nice day

Of course I would! How did you know I had such an infatuation for Laker stars turd?!? I even have Shaq, Magic, and Kareem's turd in my basement. I'm selling it on ebay for about a thousand bucks a piece. I can't wait for Kobe's. :rolleyes:

Cubs Win
10-25-2008, 11:10 PM
Better than expected? No. But the fact that he has lived up to the incredible hype put on his shoulders since he entered high school is pretty impressive.

philab
10-26-2008, 12:37 AM
I have the same knock on Howard. It is a legitimate knock and I will explain why...

It can't be said about every player in the league. I gave examples of players, MJ and Kobe, who did very well once they lost some of their athletic abilities.

Yes, that is exactly my concern. I don't think he will have much longevity. I think he will be what Shaq is currently except a lot sooner. Once his athleticism dies out then we will see what the kind of player Lebron James truly is.

:laugh2: at 30,000 points by age 30. I doubt even think he is on pace for that. He has been in the league for 5 years and has around 10,000 points. Are you saying in 7 years, he is going to get 20,000 points? That means he will have to average 35 PPG for the next 7 seasons and stay COMPLETELY healthy. Hahahaha. Right muh man. Please take off those rose-colored glasses.

Lebron never goes into the post though. AT ALL. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were already exhibiting post skills at this age. Lebron literally almost never goes into the post and has almost no footwork there. I'm not going to assume anything like that. He is turning 24 and has still not realized his size advantage in the post. Yes, that is a knock on his IQ.

I find it funny you bring up Bryant and Jordan's three-point shooting numbers yet fail to realize a few things:

MJ and Kobe did not shoot a lot of threes...at all. The most threes Kobe took was at 200. The most threes that MJ took was 66. Lebron? He has taken a whopping 379 threes in a single season. Yet he is a horrible shooter. He doesn't realize this while MJ and Kobe did. Yes, another knock on his IQ.

Kobe and MJ always had the form, but were still developing their form...Have you seen Lebrons form? His form is absolutely awful. It is extremely ugly to watch.

The midrange game. Kobe and MJ were solid in the mid-range game. Lebron is still porous in that area.

MJ and Kobe made that fault up by being great defenders. Young MJ and Young Kobe are arguably two of the greatest wing defenders of all time. Lebron? He is an atrocious man defender. He is ok in the passing lanes, but it doesn't make up for his terrible man-on-man defense.

Mike Brown is Lebron's coach. Him and Ferry are trying desperately to keep Lebron in Cleveland. I am sure they would proclaim him God just to see him stay in a Cavs uniform. I will take what he says with a grain of salt.

Yes, if you "take away their athleticism" every player in the league would drop off immensely. I realize some rely more on athleticism than others, but the best players in the league throughout its history have been genetic freaks. And I'm not just talking genetic freaks among the general population, I'm talking among their peers -- NBA players. Jordan and Kobe are two of the more athletic players to ever play the game. Sure, they learned not to rely SO MUCH on their athleticism, but what you're saying is just crazy.

Again, LeBron's athleticism won't die out for another 7 or 8 years. And you act like if he doesn't develop a post-game before then, he's gonna get cut or something. If he wants to, LeBron will play until he's 38 or 40, even if he's the worst player in the league. Even if he doesn't develop a post-game in 7 years and just relies on his athleticism, once he loses it, I guarantee you developing a post-game will be his primary concern every offseason.

I said BETWEEN 25,000 and 30,000 and over the next 7 or 8 years. He's 300 points shy of 11,000 right now. At the rate he's going (2200 or so per season), he'll hit 25,000 in less than 7 years even if he never improves. Don't tell me to take off the rose-colored glasses. Whatever bias I may have for LeBron, you and half the posters on this site have a bias against him. I'm a Cavaliers fan, yes, but that doesn't mean I can't make reasonable arguments.

You're right, Jordan didn't take that many threes until he developed a shot. Kobe's not the same story. He took plenty of threes during his first six years (200+ twice, a couple seasons in low 100s) -- not really close to how many LeBron takes, but still quite a few. Regardless, the fact that LeBron maintained a higher 3PT% over larger sample sizes is noteworthy. LeBron should take less threes -- we all know this -- but his 3PT%s are hardly indicative of his ability to develop a shot (when compared to Jordan and Kobe). Call it a knock on his IQ, I don't care. You have no real basis for such a claim, and there's obviously no way I could refute it. Those are always fun arguments to make . . .

You say I'm looking at things with rose-colored glasses. Try and remember your impressions of Jordan and Kobe when they were young. They had flaws. Someone could pick them apart just like you could do to LeBron today. No one knew Jordan was going to end up the best player of all-time; no one knew Kobe would end up an MVP. Sure, we saw the potential, but how many guys have had the POTENTIAL and fallen way short. The greats develop -- maybe LeBron will, maybe he won't. Either way, he'll go down as one of the greats even if it's only "because of his athleticism". (By the way, in all seriousness, when it's all said and done, do you think LeBron or Kobe will go down as the better player?)

And yes, Mike Brown is LeBron's coach. Ferry has nothing to do with this conversation and don't try and lump him and Brown together. Sure, Mike Brown is going to be biased, going to say things to appease LeBron, etc. He also wouldn't COMPLETELY risk his reputation saying something as dumb as you make it out to be. Take it with a grain of salt, of course. This trend of yours to trash anyone and everyone with a reputation in the NBA that disagrees with you about LeBron and at the same time confidently asserting such contrarian opinions is just absurd, though. The media can be way off (and quite often), but just don't expect me to believe you over both my own eyes and those of people paid to watch basketball.

RapsGuy23
10-26-2008, 12:39 AM
It depends what your expectations of him were. BronBron is a beast, period.

LeBrowns
10-26-2008, 12:41 AM
Hes 23, hes going to improve his jumpshot, his decision making, defense, and maturity. Everything else will stay about the same.

Hawkeye15
10-26-2008, 11:53 AM
Yes, if you "take away their athleticism" every player in the league would drop off immensely. I realize some rely more on athleticism than others, but the best players in the league throughout its history have been genetic freaks. And I'm not just talking genetic freaks among the general population, I'm talking among their peers -- NBA players. Jordan and Kobe are two of the more athletic players to ever play the game. Sure, they learned not to rely SO MUCH on their athleticism, but what you're saying is just crazy.

Again, LeBron's athleticism won't die out for another 7 or 8 years. And you act like if he doesn't develop a post-game before then, he's gonna get cut or something. If he wants to, LeBron will play until he's 38 or 40, even if he's the worst player in the league. Even if he doesn't develop a post-game in 7 years and just relies on his athleticism, once he loses it, I guarantee you developing a post-game will be his primary concern every offseason.

I said BETWEEN 25,000 and 30,000 and over the next 7 or 8 years. He's 300 points shy of 11,000 right now. At the rate he's going (2200 or so per season), he'll hit 25,000 in less than 7 years even if he never improves. Don't tell me to take off the rose-colored glasses. Whatever bias I may have for LeBron, you and half the posters on this site have a bias against him. I'm a Cavaliers fan, yes, but that doesn't mean I can't make reasonable arguments.

You're right, Jordan didn't take that many threes until he developed a shot. Kobe's not the same story. He took plenty of threes during his first six years (200+ twice, a couple seasons in low 100s) -- not really close to how many LeBron takes, but still quite a few. Regardless, the fact that LeBron maintained a higher 3PT% over larger sample sizes is noteworthy. LeBron should take less threes -- we all know this -- but his 3PT%s are hardly indicative of his ability to develop a shot (when compared to Jordan and Kobe). Call it a knock on his IQ, I don't care. You have no real basis for such a claim, and there's obviously no way I could refute it. Those are always fun arguments to make . . .

You say I'm looking at things with rose-colored glasses. Try and remember your impressions of Jordan and Kobe when they were young. They had flaws. Someone could pick them apart just like you could do to LeBron today. No one knew Jordan was going to end up the best player of all-time; no one knew Kobe would end up an MVP. Sure, we saw the potential, but how many guys have had the POTENTIAL and fallen way short. The greats develop -- maybe LeBron will, maybe he won't. Either way, he'll go down as one of the greats even if it's only "because of his athleticism". (By the way, in all seriousness, when it's all said and done, do you think LeBron or Kobe will go down as the better player?)

And yes, Mike Brown is LeBron's coach. Ferry has nothing to do with this conversation and don't try and lump him and Brown together. Sure, Mike Brown is going to be biased, going to say things to appease LeBron, etc. He also wouldn't COMPLETELY risk his reputation saying something as dumb as you make it out to be. Take it with a grain of salt, of course. This trend of yours to trash anyone and everyone with a reputation in the NBA that disagrees with you about LeBron and at the same time confidently asserting such contrarian opinions is just absurd, though. The media can be way off (and quite often), but just don't expect me to believe you over both my own eyes and those of people paid to watch basketball.


I ditto what you just said

Lebron23
10-26-2008, 02:50 PM
Best Player in the NBA, and excellent posts Philab.

mrblisterdundee
10-26-2008, 03:01 PM
I think LeBron is just as good as people expected him to be.

Durant is hype
10-26-2008, 09:00 PM
No,he's way more than I expected,I expected him to be God but he surpassed that.