PDA

View Full Version : Becoming a Hall of Famer



king2218
10-06-2008, 12:14 PM
What do you guys think are more important to induct an NBA player into the hall of fame:

Stats

Wins/Championships

yobryan2001
10-06-2008, 12:17 PM
I think its more wins/championships.. for example, robert horry would probably have a better chance at making it than tracy mcgrady at this point.

JordansBulls
10-06-2008, 12:40 PM
What do you guys think are more important to induct an NBA player into the hall of fame:

Stats

Wins/Championships

You have to be a star first off. Next you have to have made all nba teams. Next you have to have stats and last you have to have won titles.

Guys like Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Dominique, Stockton are guys who have made all nba teams and have the stats, but didn't win titles.

It's easier for Barkley and Malone because they have MVP's to help them, but the other guys like Ewing, Nique and Stockton have stats to back them up in making the hall.

Rings in itself only help if you won as a top 2 player on the team. Just because you won rings don't mean anything if you are only winning as a 5th option. Anyone could win like that.

barreleffact
10-06-2008, 01:24 PM
its a combo. the best examples for why it cant be just stats are tmac and melo. they both are said to be very skilled and both put up sum good numbers, but neither can pass the 1st round. not HoF material to me. the ability to carry a team and make them better...not neccessarily rings but certainly taking a team that shouldnt be anywhere near the conference finals or more to the conference finals. that displays true ability

AK-50
10-06-2008, 01:59 PM
wins and championships and leadership

Chronz
10-06-2008, 02:21 PM
its a combo. the best examples for why it cant be just stats are tmac and melo. they both are said to be very skilled and both put up sum good numbers, but neither can pass the 1st round. not HoF material to me. the ability to carry a team and make them better...not neccessarily rings but certainly taking a team that shouldnt be anywhere near the conference finals or more to the conference finals. that displays true ability

Tmac took a team of bums to the postseason, he made them as good as anyone else couldve, and Tmac stats are too insane to ignore, easily HOF talent. Melo has put up decent all-star stats but he isnt in the same category as Tmac was then. The fact that Kobe couldnt take his team past the first round when he was at his best proves its not possible to expect that from ANYONE.

knicks1214
10-06-2008, 02:23 PM
I would say stats...if it were championships then Horry would be one of the best of all time and would be a hall of famer...not going to happen.

theuuord
10-06-2008, 02:45 PM
I think its more wins/championships.. for example, robert horry would probably have a better chance at making it than tracy mcgrady at this point.

lol no he doesn't.

AFlagRules
10-06-2008, 02:49 PM
Stats!

barreleffact
10-06-2008, 03:13 PM
Tmac took a team of bums to the postseason, he made them as good as anyone else couldve, and Tmac stats are too insane to ignore, easily HOF talent. Melo has put up decent all-star stats but he isnt in the same category as Tmac was then. The fact that Kobe couldnt take his team past the first round when he was at his best proves its not possible to expect that from ANYONE.

lebron did it. besides kobe's team doesnt count to me. not because im a kobe fanatic, but did you see that team? theye were pathetic. Kwame brown, one of the biggest busts ever. Luke walton was so scared to do anything that kobe found him a wide open lay-up with 2 seconds left and luke passed it back. it wasnt kobe. his team was just ********.

however, im not at all arguing that 1 guy can be a team. but he was never just 1 guy. when he was in the east, the super soft east at that time, he would always lose. when in the west, he's had yao and rafer and quality teams. thats t-mac all the way. their injuries aside, he souldve been able to come out at least once in the 7 times he's ben in the post season. you are right that melo and t-mac dont compare tho, but he was the next best example

JordansBulls
10-06-2008, 03:15 PM
lebron did it. besides kobe's team doesnt count to me. not because im a kobe fanatic, but did you see that team? theye were pathetic. Kwame brown, one of the biggest busts ever. Luke walton was so scared to do anything that kobe found him a wide open lay-up with 2 seconds left and luke passed it back. it wasnt kobe. his team was just ********.

however, im not at all arguing that 1 guy can be a team. but he was never just 1 guy. when he was in the east, the super soft east at that time, he would always lose. when in the west, he's had yao and rafer and quality teams. thats t-mac all the way. their injuries aside, he souldve been able to come out at least once in the 7 times he's ben in the post season. you are right that melo and t-mac dont compare tho, but he was the next best example

Honestly do you think Phil Jackson with any top 5 player in the league is not going to make the playoffs?

barreleffact
10-06-2008, 03:19 PM
Honestly do you think Phil Jackson with any top 5 player in the league is not going to make the playoffs?

tmac can make the playoffs but he cant win. and if it was the lakers team of like 06 when kobe had to average 35 per, he wouldnt make it in this west. their team was attrocious.

as a matter of fact, i think tmac is like tony romo...immune to playoff success.

but to answer your question, phil jackson wont coach a team w/o talent

MiamiHeat
10-06-2008, 03:32 PM
Stats and also having a ring separates you from alot of great players that don't have a ring

RapsGuy23
10-06-2008, 03:46 PM
Combination. Stats alone should not get you into the NBA Hall of Fame

Frank Costanza
10-06-2008, 04:11 PM
i think its stats-leadership-playoff success, all star appearacces- all nba teams but most of all NBA PRESENCE, theres somethinga bout hall of fame players that you just know who they are becaue of waht theyve meant to their teams, to the league, guys like horry you have to after justify with the championships, guys like malone you need not have to justify at all the name says it all, he was one of the big boys in the league as long as he was in it, he had decent playoff sucess went to the finals, its not easy to win it all, not everyone is lucky to have that in their resume, but there are some players you know are no doubt hall of famers,

JIDsanity
10-06-2008, 04:16 PM
I think its more wins/championships.. for example, robert horry would probably have a better chance at making it than tracy mcgrady at this point.

That's the funniest thing I've heard all day

_Sn1P3r_
10-06-2008, 04:25 PM
In short, it's everything. Yeah some people didn't win rings but they were really good stats wise. And if it didn't show in their stats, it's what they bring to the team.

RapsGuy23
10-06-2008, 04:27 PM
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day

I'm sure this will be this first and last time this happens but I agree with you.

Chronz
10-06-2008, 04:29 PM
lebron did it.
That was a historical, once in a lifetime achievement and even before that series he had a team good enough to bury a depleted Washington team and a poor NJ team, he had the momentum. It was a great moment for LeBron but is far from the norm and isnt a necessity to make the HOF or be a great player.


besides kobe's team doesnt count to me. not because im a kobe fanatic, but did you see that team? theye were pathetic.
So were Tmac's when he was carrying them to 3 straight playoff appearances.


Kwame brown, one of the biggest busts ever.
A better interior defender than Tmac ever had in Orlando


Luke walton was so scared to do anything that kobe found him a wide open lay-up with 2 seconds left and luke passed it back. it wasnt kobe. his team was just ********.
That was actually the year they missed the playoffs and it wasnt wide open.


however, im not at all arguing that 1 guy can be a team. but he was never just 1 guy. when he was in the east, the super soft east at that time, he would always lose. when in the west, he's had yao and rafer and quality teams. thats t-mac all the way. their injuries aside, he souldve been able to come out at least once in the 7 times he's ben in the post season. you are right that melo and t-mac dont compare tho, but he was the next best example

When Tmac was at his best it was always just by himself and regardless of how poor you think the East was or how good his teams were in the West his teams have always overachieved. He shouldve won one of those series as much as Kobe shouldve won any of his when he was by himself, but since he didnt you dont hold it against them.

Melo's case is entirely different, his play drops in the postseason, Tmac takes it up several notches.

oshea225
10-06-2008, 04:30 PM
stats then championships. for example, derek fisher already has 3 rings but probably wont be a hall of famer. iverson on the other hand doesnt have any championships but hes a certified hall of famer

barreleffact
10-06-2008, 04:51 PM
That was a historical, once in a lifetime achievement and even before that series he had a team good enough to bury a depleted Washington team and a poor NJ team, he had the momentum. It was a great moment for LeBron but is far from the norm and isnt a necessity to make the HOF or be a great player.

So were Tmac's when he was carrying them to 3 straight playoff appearances.


A better interior defender than Tmac ever had in Orlando

That was actually the year they missed the playoffs and it wasnt wide open.


When Tmac was at his best it was always just by himself and regardless of how poor you think the East was or how good his teams were in the West his teams have always overachieved. He shouldve won one of those series as much as Kobe shouldve won any of his when he was by himself, but since he didnt you dont hold it against them.

Melo's case is entirely different, his play drops in the postseason, Tmac takes it up several notches.

seriously, im not saying that what lebron did is the standard at all. that was a fluke. i even had a rant of the day a while ago about how bogus it was. im not even comparing tmac to kobe. its no comparison. i think kobe in the east or w houston would have gotten past the first round. he has to be held accountable or who will. if seeding is your problem, then win or lose more to have a more favorable matchup. i honestly dont think his teams ever overachieved. its hard to say they overachieved considering their rosters. it takes at least 2 to have a legit shot. kobe and shaq, jordan and pip to name a few. tmac had that. if he cant get out of the first round it is his fault. it was kobes fault when he couldnt will 1 more game against pheonix. that comes w being the team leader. how could tmac rright now be even in HoF considerations when he hasnt done anything? even VC has done more, and he will never touch the HoF

JOSETHEALLSTAR
10-06-2008, 04:56 PM
ring/stats/superstar/mvp

Ballah0liC1
10-06-2008, 05:06 PM
I think its more wins/championships.. for example, robert horry would probably have a better chance at making it than tracy mcgrady at this point.

wow never say something that stupid again :guns: :ouch:

Ballah0liC1
10-06-2008, 05:11 PM
So were Tmac's when he was carrying them to 3 straight playoff appearances.


A better interior defender than Tmac ever had in Orlando

yeah orlandos best interior defender then was andrew declerq or steven hunter :faint:

rocowear21
10-06-2008, 05:22 PM
lol marburys image would change if he took the knicks to a championship
dont see it happening but you never know

Ballah0liC1
10-06-2008, 05:22 PM
seriously, im not saying that what lebron did is the standard at all. that was a fluke. i even had a rant of the day a while ago about how bogus it was. im not even comparing tmac to kobe. its no comparison. i think kobe in the east or w houston would have gotten past the first round. he has to be held accountable or who will. if seeding is your problem, then win or lose more to have a more favorable matchup. i honestly dont think his teams ever overachieved. its hard to say they overachieved considering their rosters. it takes at least 2 to have a legit shot. kobe and shaq, jordan and pip to name a few. tmac had that. if he cant get out of the first round it is his fault. it was kobes fault when he couldnt will 1 more game against pheonix. that comes w being the team leader. how could tmac rright now be even in HoF considerations when he hasnt done anything? even VC has done more, and he will never touch the HoF

every team has 3 or more players that step up, in orlando tmac next best teamate was hill but he was always injured, then it was mike miller who was traded for gooden and tell me how do you make the playoffs with this team
pg armstrong
sg tmac
sf miller
pf garrity
c declerq
and he did it
and in houston other than yao when he didnt miss the playoffs who stepped up besides tmac :confused::confused:
lets see kobes team for the three years
pg fisher
sg kobe
sf fox
pf grant or horry
c shaq
and how bout the year they lost to the pistons
pg the glove
sg kobe
sf devean
pf the mailman
c shaq thats four hall of famers and they still couldnt win

barreleffact
10-06-2008, 11:50 PM
every team has 3 or more players that step up, in orlando tmac next best teamate was hill but he was always injured, then it was mike miller who was traded for gooden and tell me how do you make the playoffs with this team
pg armstrong
sg tmac
sf miller
pf garrity
c declerq
and he did it
and in houston other than yao when he didnt miss the playoffs who stepped up besides tmac :confused::confused:
lets see kobes team for the three years
pg fisher
sg kobe
sf fox
pf grant or horry
c shaq
and how bout the year they lost to the pistons
pg the glove
sg kobe
sf devean
pf the mailman
c shaq thats four hall of famers and they still couldnt win

what does kobe have to do with tmac? tmac isnt a choke artist, but he hasnt proven he can carry a franchise

Beno7500
10-06-2008, 11:53 PM
you have to be a consistently great/phenomenal player

Lebron23
10-07-2008, 12:22 AM
Robert Horry will never be inducted in the HOF.

He never had an impressive career in College and HS. Horry is just a role player that's very clutch in the playoffs.

Championship rings are overrated, when an NBA player is not even the number option of his team.

pete_one
10-07-2008, 01:45 AM
1. Stats
2. All star Games
3. Popularity
4. Philanthropy
5. Championships
6. Post Career Broadcaster
7. $

pd7631
10-07-2008, 03:37 AM
This is the best way of determining what makes up a HOF'er in my opinion

http://www.databasebasketball.com/about/abouthofm.htm

Chronz
10-07-2008, 04:27 AM
seriously, im not saying that what lebron did is the standard at all. that was a fluke. i even had a rant of the day a while ago about how bogus it was. im not even comparing tmac to kobe. its no comparison. i think kobe in the east or w houston would have gotten past the first round.
Thats because your still not getting the bigger picture, if hes in the east then its not like you can take the Lakers team with you, how far he gos is up to the talent around him and level at which he plays.



he has to be held accountable or who will.
The TEAM


if seeding is your problem, then win or lose more to have a more favorable matchup.
What? You dont think his teams wouldve loved to have the number 1 seed and face an 8th seed? Its just not possible


i honestly dont think his teams ever overachieved.
Thats because you dont know much about his career.


its hard to say they overachieved considering their rosters.
Try me


it takes at least 2 to have a legit shot.
I dont deal in absolutes, it takes a TEAM to have a legit shot


kobe and shaq,
Shaq was a unique breed, neither Tmac/Yao/Kobe will ever be able impact a game the way Shaq did in his prime.


jordan and pip to name a few
Jordan and Pip needed Grant or Rodman


. tmac had that.
The teams Tmac faced had more than that.


if he cant get out of the first round it is his fault.
Nope


it was kobes fault when he couldnt will 1 more game against pheonix.
It was Kobes fault his teammates couldnt secure a rebound?


that comes w being the team leader. how could tmac rright now be even in HoF considerations when he hasnt done anything?
Hes done alot, his level of play is enough


even VC has done more, and he will never touch the HoF
Your so lost

JJ81
10-07-2008, 04:39 AM
It's more than just looking at numbers on a piece of paper. Judge it on how they play the game

Chronz
10-07-2008, 04:43 AM
what does kobe have to do with tmac? tmac isnt a choke artist, but he hasnt proven he can carry a franchise

Hes proven capable of carrying a franchise so no

Chronz
10-07-2008, 04:44 AM
It's more than just looking at numbers on a piece of paper. Judge it on how they play the game
Most people who say this dont know what numbers show and what numbers matter. Combine BOTH

sportsnutzz
10-07-2008, 05:35 AM
Hes proven capable of carrying a franchise so no

Are you serious? Carrying a team to what? the first round? Tmac is missing something and I don't know how to explain it. He doesn't seam to really make his team that much better. You can throw out any #'s you want but I think the guy is a looser.

Chronz
10-07-2008, 06:32 AM
Are you serious? Carrying a team to what? the first round? Tmac is missing something and I don't know how to explain it. He doesn't seam to really make his team that much better. You can throw out any #'s you want but I think the guy is a looser.
Your argument is missing something, I dont know how to explain it but... oh wait yes I do, your missing logic.

But yes Im serious, carrying a team of nobodies to the playoffs and making the most out of his situation and making his teammates better (Yes he does that at a rate that the elite do). I havent thrown a single number yet but the mere fact that all you whiners can come up with I think the guy is a loser without any supporting evidence tells me I dont have to. You guys dont have an argument.

barreleffact
10-07-2008, 06:39 AM
Thats because your still not getting the bigger picture, if hes in the east then its not like you can take the Lakers team with you, how far he gos is up to the talent around him and level at which he plays.



The TEAM


What? You dont think his teams wouldve loved to have the number 1 seed and face an 8th seed? Its just not possible


Thats because you dont know much about his career.


Try me


I dont deal in absolutes, it takes a TEAM to have a legit shot


Shaq was a unique breed, neither Tmac/Yao/Kobe will ever be able impact a game the way Shaq did in his prime.


Jordan and Pip needed Grant or Rodman


The teams Tmac faced had more than that.


Nope


It was Kobes fault his teammates couldnt secure a rebound?


Hes done alot, his level of play is enough


Your so lost

being the leader of the team is like being the leader of anything else....its your fault. deal with it. im not saying mac didnt want the number 1 seed, but if you dont matchup well against the jazz....lose more games and play the spurs or pheonix or even dallas back in 06. w/e u gotta do to get out. i hate when people tell me what I know. you dont know me man. i got a lot of respect for you, but please do not tell me what I know. I know what ive seen, and time after time ive sen tmac fail. even when he was up 3 1 against detroit. dont get me wrong, he wasnt supposed to win that. he was an 8th seed playing a 1 seed, but it can happen. and i dont deal in absolutes either. generally it takes 3 ppl to have a legit shot, but we arent talkin about a shot at a championship. hes never had a legit shot for a ring. we are talkin about the freakin 2nd round dude. the 2nd round. i mean paul pierce went to the ECF with antoine walker as one of his leading guys, but tmac cant go to round 2 w yao? and if the jazz had more than any jordan team ever when he was playing w the bulls, theydve won it all. dont give me that. the jazz just had more than he did. as far as kobe, he is a leader. no matter what, it reflects poorly on you no matter how sorry your team is. that is the sad truth. even if one game was because of a rebound, what about the other 2? at the end of the day a player can will 1 game...not a series, but they had 3 shots for him to will 1 more game. im a huge kobe fan, but it will go down as a failure on his team but also a huge failure on his part. there have been a lot of great players in the league and countless more who could be great but are limited by their team roles. tmac may be a great player, but hes had no success at all and is incredibly injury proned due to his back and othe rparts. i mean bill walton at least won a ring or 2 even tho his career was injury riddled. mac s always 1 and out. and in what way am i lost for saying VC has done more? are you seriously arguing that VC has had a worse career than mac up to this point? if so, then you are lost. VC has gone prety deep into the playoffs and started out better than mac did. you can say what you want about VC's injury and how it affected his game, but you cant say mac's failures proove his careers at all comparable to almost anybody who is considered great

barreleffact
10-07-2008, 06:41 AM
Your argument is missing something, I dont know how to explain it but... oh wait yes I do, your missing logic.

But yes Im serious, carrying a team of nobodies to the playoffs and making the most out of his situation and making his teammates better (Yes he does that at a rate that the elite do). I havent thrown a single number yet but the mere fact that all you whiners can come up with I think the guy is a loser without any supporting evidence tells me I dont have to. You guys dont have an argument.

wow...ur basically saying that logic is hating and you arent hating so its hate vs bias??? idk, but i was ahuge tmac fan but he hasnt done anything. the wizards go to the first round every year....so what? gilbert isnt gonna be sniffing any HoF at this rate either. talent wise, sure, they are both memorable, but success wise...no. they arent worthy UP TO THIS POINT

Chronz
10-07-2008, 06:56 AM
being the leader of the team is like being the leader of anything else....its your fault. deal with it.
Thats stupid, the fortunes of a team are never so clearly defined, its NEVER on 1 player.



im not saying mac didnt want the number 1 seed, but if you dont matchup well against the jazz....lose more games and play the spurs or pheonix or even dallas back in 06. w/e u gotta do to get out.
Im talking about Orlando Tmac, BEFORE the back problems caught up to him. And he could barely get them into the playoffs, he drops any more and hes not in the post season. As for his Houston stay, it would be best if the team could move up but they werent talented enough.




i hate when people tell me what I know. you dont know me man. i got a lot of respect for you, but please do not tell me what I know.
I know what you dont know, and thats Tmac's career.


I know what ive seen, and time after time ive sen tmac fail.
No you saw his teams fail, Tmac ALWAYS raised his game to another level come playoff time. On an individual basis Tmac has always been the best player on the court.


even when he was up 3 1 against detroit
That in itself was a miracle, Tmac was that good back then.


. dont get me wrong, he wasnt supposed to win that. he was an 8th seed playing a 1 seed, but it can happen
But its not something you would expect to happen


and i dont deal in absolutes either. generally it takes 3 ppl to have a legit shot,
Your still talking in absolutes, it takes a TEAM. Whether it be constructed with 3Stars or none. If your only breaking down the strength of a team by 3 players then your half assing your analysis.


but we arent talkin about a shot at a championship. hes never had a legit shot for a ring. we are talkin about the freakin 2nd round dude. the 2nd round.
Yea and the teams that beat him to the 2nd round were more completel


i mean paul pierce went to the ECF with antoine walker as one of his leading guys, but tmac cant go to round 2 w yao?
Im sorry but there is just no way your 33 years old. Ok since we're dealing in absolutes Ill play your game, give Tmac, Yao and put him in that Eastern Conference and he makes it to the finals.


and if the jazz had more than any jordan team ever when he was playing w the bulls, theydve won it all.
ummm what??


dont give me that.
Dont give you what?


the jazz just had more than he did.
Im not following you


as far as kobe, he is a leader. no matter what, it reflects poorly on you no matter how sorry your team is. that is the sad truth. even if one game was because of a rebound
Incorrect, there are aspects of the game 1 player cannot control, for you to blame 1 man for the actions of 11 other players is foolish. Again Im not buying your its all or nothing talk.



, what about the other 2? at the end of the day a player can will 1 game...not a series, but they had 3 shots for him to will 1 more game.
Your contradicting yourself, he willed his team to a 3-1 lead, I thought you said a player couldnt will an entire series. His teammates werent the caliber of the Suns and they lost, it really isnt that hard to figure out man.


im a huge kobe fan, but it will go down as a failure on his team but also a huge failure on his part.
It wont go down as a failure on his part because he lost to the better team.


there have been a lot of great players in the league and countless more who could be great but are limited by their team roles.
Name a few of them, you really caught my attention with this one.


tmac may be a great player, but hes had no success at all and is incredibly injury proned due to his back and othe rparts.
Hes always carried his teams to respectable levels (aside from the lost season in Orlando), him displaying a level of play, unseen since MJ is more than enough to stake his claim as a great player. His lack of post season success is a reflection of the quality of team around him and the quality of his opposition.


i mean bill walton at least won a ring or 2 even tho his career was injury riddled.
Yea and by your standards its Walton's fault he could never stay healthy.


mac s always 1 and out.
Yes because his teams were inferior to the opposition


and in what way am i lost for saying VC has done more? are you seriously arguing that VC has had a worse career than mac up to this point?
Yes


if so, then you are lost.
Nope


VC has gone prety deep into the playoffs and started out better than mac did.
Mac has been the better player throughout his career, you seem to think any player who makes it past the 1st round is better than Tmac, you couldnt be more wrong.


you can say what you want about VC's injury and how it affected his game, but you cant say mac's failures proove his careers at all comparable to almost anybody who is considered great
That made no sense to me, can you break it down easier? Macs failures prove his careers at all comparable to almost anybody?

Chronz
10-07-2008, 07:03 AM
wow...ur basically saying that logic is hating and you arent hating so its hate vs bias??? idk,
He has no logic, if your saying you have no reason or way of describing why a certain player is a loser then your admitting you have no argument, just that you want your bias to be heard.


but i was ahuge tmac fan
...

but he hasnt done anything.
Your obviously not a fan, his level of play is something, how he carried his teams is something.


the wizards go to the first round every year....so what?
So they made the playoffs


gilbert isnt gonna be sniffing any HoF at this rate either. talent wise, sure, they are both memorable, but success wise...no. they arent worthy UP TO THIS POINT
There is just 1 GIANT problem with your logic, Gilbert never had a stretch of seasons the way Tmac did in Orlando, few ever have. Tmac is very easily worthy of the HOF, hes a HOF caliber player and certainly better than many HOF'ers already.

barreleffact
10-07-2008, 07:15 AM
He has no logic, if your saying you have no reason or way of describing why a certain player is a loser then your admitting you have no argument, just that you want your bias to be heard.


...

Your obviously not a fan, his level of play is something, how he carried his teams is something.


So they made the playoffs


There is just 1 GIANT problem with your logic, Gilbert never had a stretch of seasons the way Tmac did in Orlando, few ever have. Tmac is very easily worthy of the HOF, hes a HOF caliber player and certainly better than many HOF'ers already.

gil averaged 29 per for a season. thats pretty close

barreleffact
10-07-2008, 07:34 AM
Thats stupid, the fortunes of a team are never so clearly defined, its NEVER on 1 player.



Im talking about Orlando Tmac, BEFORE the back problems caught up to him. And he could barely get them into the playoffs, he drops any more and hes not in the post season. As for his Houston stay, it would be best if the team could move up but they werent talented enough.




I know what you dont know, and thats Tmac's career.


No you saw his teams fail, Tmac ALWAYS raised his game to another level come playoff time. On an individual basis Tmac has always been the best player on the court.


That in itself was a miracle, Tmac was that good back then.


But its not something you would expect to happen


Your still talking in absolutes, it takes a TEAM. Whether it be constructed with 3Stars or none. If your only breaking down the strength of a team by 3 players then your half assing your analysis.


Yea and the teams that beat him to the 2nd round were more completel


Im sorry but there is just no way your 33 years old. Ok since we're dealing in absolutes Ill play your game, give Tmac, Yao and put him in that Eastern Conference and he makes it to the finals.


ummm what??


Dont give you what?


Im not following you


Incorrect, there are aspects of the game 1 player cannot control, for you to blame 1 man for the actions of 11 other players is foolish. Again Im not buying your its all or nothing talk.



Your contradicting yourself, he willed his team to a 3-1 lead, I thought you said a player couldnt will an entire series. His teammates werent the caliber of the Suns and they lost, it really isnt that hard to figure out man.


It wont go down as a failure on his part because he lost to the better team.


Name a few of them, you really caught my attention with this one.


Hes always carried his teams to respectable levels (aside from the lost season in Orlando), him displaying a level of play, unseen since MJ is more than enough to stake his claim as a great player. His lack of post season success is a reflection of the quality of team around him and the quality of his opposition.


Yea and by your standards its Walton's fault he could never stay healthy.


Yes because his teams were inferior to the opposition


Yes

Nope


Mac has been the better player throughout his career, you seem to think any player who makes it past the 1st round is better than Tmac, you couldnt be more wrong.


That made no sense to me, can you break it down easier? Macs failures prove his careers at all comparable to almost anybody?

you are right. it is never 1 player. however, it always reflect the most on the leading player. that is a fact. when you are the leader, it is seen as your fault. that isnt just basketball. its like that with all management.

yea, inorland he couldnt drop any further but in houston, he could. they should play better matchups and dropping by losing is easier than winning with the same result in the sense that you are playing a different team.

dude...when did i ever say im 33? wtf? but tmac and yao in the east at any of those times still dont make the nba finals. maybe the ecf but not the finals

and when i brought up jordan and pip, you said teams tmac faces had more. if any team could ever be as good as jordan and pips teams, they would win it all

kobe led them to a 3-1 lead, but if i recall correctly, people helped. he had 3 more games to just impose his will and go for an 81 point game if he had to. 1 player doesnt usually win a series for you, but when its a 1 game race, anything can happen.

the best example i can give, using todays rosters, of a player who is limited by his role is tayshaun prince. prince could average 20-30. he does whenever rip or sum1 gets injured. his all around game is great but they limit all their players attempts and it wasnt his role to score a lot.

tmac isnt good enough to be compared to MJ in any way. ever!!! MJ is so far out of his league it isnt even funny. when MJ averaged 30, he had teams. when mac averaged 30, he was a bottomfeeder. huge difference.

mac has not had a better career than VC. VC has had more sucess. its that simple. mac has done nothing. and VC was better than mac. from what ive heard, this could be wrong, but the reason tmac departed from toronto was because he didnt want to play 2nd fiddle to VC who outshined him at that time

warrior007
10-07-2008, 09:24 AM
Its all about if you meet one specific criteria. Where you a dominant player in your era? This can be measured in a variety of ways, although it does remain subjective. Guys like Stockton, Malone, Barkley...they were dominant players yet never won a ring. Its not all about stats. Pippen averaged only 16ppg during his career, yet he will be a first time inductee into the Hall. Rings definately help and shows how dominant you are. But rings alone are not enough (i.e. Robert Horry with 7 rings but a 7ppg career average wont get in)

warrior007
10-07-2008, 09:26 AM
TMac and Vince will not get in. Niether is considered a winner. You should add that to the list of criteria.

king2218
10-07-2008, 10:30 AM
I think it has a lot more to do with stats/all star games/all-nba team selections. Championships help...but look at barkley and ewing, they're in it...would u say that if Kevin Garnett would not have been a hall of famer if he hadn't won the championship??? what about allen iverson?
And about T-Mac, I think he is a hall of famer because of his stats...people talk about his postseason...yea he hasn't won but he has the 5th highest scoring average in the playoffs in NBA history...

Chronz
10-07-2008, 03:44 PM
you are right. it is never 1 player. however, it always reflect the most on the leading player. that is a fact. when you are the leader, it is seen as your fault. that isnt just basketball. its like that with all management.
Yea and the fact that Tmac led those group of guys so far speaks volumes about his ability as a leader. Hes a great one indeed


yea, inorland he couldnt drop any further but in houston, he could. they should play better matchups and dropping by losing is easier than winning with the same result in the sense that you are playing a different team.

The only time it really affected them was when they shouldve played the Sonic instead of the Mavs but the Rockets dont play to lose, the fact that this is a part of your argument is a joke man. The game isnt about making it past the 1st round, its about winning a title. It doesnt matter if you get to the 2nd or not if your eliminated your eliminated.



dude...when did i ever say im 33? wtf? but tmac and yao in the east at any of those times still dont make the nba finals. maybe the ecf but not the finals
Sorry man Im having trouble keeping up with who Im debating with, the other dude said he was 33. And they make the finals, name 1 team that wouldve beaten them that year, either way the point remains. Lets say they make the ECF does it really say anything about Tmac that we didnt already know, all that matters is how you lead your team and he led them admirably to 50+ Wins in the tough West. I dont need to see him beat up on a .500 team in the East to know he can get to the 2nd round. He proves capable of winning by leading his team so far in the first place.


and when i brought up jordan and pip, you said teams tmac faces had more. if any team could ever be as good as jordan and pips teams, they would win it all
The teams that Tmac faced had more than 1 good player next to him


kobe led them to a 3-1 lead, but if i recall correctly, people helped. he had 3 more games to just impose his will and go for an 81 point game if he had to. 1 player doesnt usually win a series for you, but when its a 1 game race, anything can happen.

Kobe willed them to a 3-1 lead, every game they won he was absolutely spectacular, of course he had help, thats the point Ive been trying to make for you. 1 guy doesnt win a game, and its not a 1 game race, he had to win 3 remember.


the best example i can give, using todays rosters, of a player who is limited by his role is tayshaun prince. prince could average 20-30. he does whenever rip or sum1 gets injured. his all around game is great but they limit all their players attempts and it wasnt his role to score a lot.
He couldnt score that much if Tay had that kind of potential he wouldnt be costing his team with his lack of creating abilities. Every year they lose in the playoffs Prince flames out, you really have no evidence supporting what you just said. Players with that kind of potential are easily spotted because they thrive so much in such a reduced role they score at a much more efficient rate, Tay does not. The problem most people have with stats is that they dont know the correlation the numbers have with a players usage. If Tay were to have an increased role his numbers could very easily drop, some players arent meant for stardom and Tay is definitely one of them.


tmac isnt good enough to be compared to MJ in any way. ever!!! MJ is so far out of his league it isnt even funny. when MJ averaged 30, he had teams. when mac averaged 30, he was a bottomfeeder. huge difference.
Thats how amazing he was that year, he was comparable to MJ the difference was that MJ had great teammates alongside him, seriously though hes not MJ, thats not what Im saying. He was the best a perimeter player ever has been since MJ that year, but I know the point your trying to make. Whats the difference?


mac has not had a better career than VC. VC has had more sucess. its that simple. mac has done nothing. and VC was better than mac. from what ive heard, this could be wrong, but the reason tmac departed from toronto was because he didnt want to play 2nd fiddle to VC who outshined him at that time
Tmac has had more success its that simple (See how easy it is to argue when this is your choice of words.) Vince had 1 season that was comparable to Tmac's stay in Orlando, and Vince never led his team to 50 wins so how could he have had more success. Vince has made 2 All-Nba teams (2nd team and a 3rd team) Tmac has been a 1st teamer twice. Year in, year out Tmac is among the top in MVP voting. Tmac has always been more effective and unless you bring something to the argument Im not going to bother repeating myself. Preferably have it be something tangible, enough of this "its that simple" talk. PROVE IT

By the way Tmac was 19 in Toronto, he wanted to go home to play ALONGSIDE of Grant Hill it definitely wasnt because he couldnt share the spotlight its because he wanted to go home, he wanted Vince to have his own spotlight but that doesnt mean he wouldnt have stayed if thats where his heart was at, this is why I said you dont know much about Tmac's career. I dont blame you, its probably a result of all the hatred surrounding the 2nd round virgin.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2008, 05:48 PM
Yea and the fact that Tmac led those group of guys so far speaks volumes about his ability as a leader. Hes a great one indeed


The only time it really affected them was when they shouldve played the Sonic instead of the Mavs but the Rockets dont play to lose, the fact that this is a part of your argument is a joke man. The game isnt about making it past the 1st round, its about winning a title. It doesnt matter if you get to the 2nd or not if your eliminated your eliminated.



Sorry man Im having trouble keeping up with who Im debating with, the other dude said he was 33. And they make the finals, name 1 team that wouldve beaten them that year, either way the point remains. Lets say they make the ECF does it really say anything about Tmac that we didnt already know, all that matters is how you lead your team and he led them admirably to 50+ Wins in the tough West. I dont need to see him beat up on a .500 team in the East to know he can get to the 2nd round. He proves capable of winning by leading his team so far in the first place.


The teams that Tmac faced had more than 1 good player next to him


Kobe willed them to a 3-1 lead, every game they won he was absolutely spectacular, of course he had help, thats the point Ive been trying to make for you. 1 guy doesnt win a game, and its not a 1 game race, he had to win 3 remember.


He couldnt score that much if Tay had that kind of potential he wouldnt be costing his team with his lack of creating abilities. Every year they lose in the playoffs Prince flames out, you really have no evidence supporting what you just said. Players with that kind of potential are easily spotted because they thrive so much in such a reduced role they score at a much more efficient rate, Tay does not. The problem most people have with stats is that they dont know the correlation the numbers have with a players usage. If Tay were to have an increased role his numbers could very easily drop, some players arent meant for stardom and Tay is definitely one of them.


Thats how amazing he was that year, he was comparable to MJ the difference was that MJ had great teammates alongside him, seriously though hes not MJ, thats not what Im saying. He was the best a perimeter player ever has been since MJ that year, but I know the point your trying to make. Whats the difference?


Tmac has had more success its that simple (See how easy it is to argue when this is your choice of words.) Vince had 1 season that was comparable to Tmac's stay in Orlando, and Vince never led his team to 50 wins so how could he have had more success. Vince has made 2 All-Nba teams (2nd team and a 3rd team) Tmac has been a 1st teamer twice. Year in, year out Tmac is among the top in MVP voting. Tmac has always been more effective and unless you bring something to the argument Im not going to bother repeating myself. Preferably have it be something tangible, enough of this "its that simple" talk. PROVE IT

By the way Tmac was 19 in Toronto, he wanted to go home to play ALONGSIDE of Grant Hill it definitely wasnt because he couldnt share the spotlight its because he wanted to go home, he wanted Vince to have his own spotlight but that doesnt mean he wouldnt have stayed if thats where his heart was at, this is why I said you dont know much about Tmac's career. I dont blame you, its probably a result of all the hatred surrounding the 2nd round virgin.

I am 33. I have been watching basketball religiously since 1985. I was the one who stated it. Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean you have to lay down attacks on other threads. I simply state my opinion. I don't need to check stat after stat in a lot of cases. I have watched countless games, that is where I make my opinions. :)

JIDsanity
10-07-2008, 06:12 PM
I'm sure this will be this first and last time this happens but I agree with you.

:laugh2:

barreleffact
10-07-2008, 11:49 PM
Yea and the fact that Tmac led those group of guys so far speaks volumes about his ability as a leader. Hes a great one indeed


The only time it really affected them was when they shouldve played the Sonic instead of the Mavs but the Rockets dont play to lose, the fact that this is a part of your argument is a joke man. The game isnt about making it past the 1st round, its about winning a title. It doesnt matter if you get to the 2nd or not if your eliminated your eliminated.



Sorry man Im having trouble keeping up with who Im debating with, the other dude said he was 33. And they make the finals, name 1 team that wouldve beaten them that year, either way the point remains. Lets say they make the ECF does it really say anything about Tmac that we didnt already know, all that matters is how you lead your team and he led them admirably to 50+ Wins in the tough West. I dont need to see him beat up on a .500 team in the East to know he can get to the 2nd round. He proves capable of winning by leading his team so far in the first place.


The teams that Tmac faced had more than 1 good player next to him


Kobe willed them to a 3-1 lead, every game they won he was absolutely spectacular, of course he had help, thats the point Ive been trying to make for you. 1 guy doesnt win a game, and its not a 1 game race, he had to win 3 remember.


He couldnt score that much if Tay had that kind of potential he wouldnt be costing his team with his lack of creating abilities. Every year they lose in the playoffs Prince flames out, you really have no evidence supporting what you just said. Players with that kind of potential are easily spotted because they thrive so much in such a reduced role they score at a much more efficient rate, Tay does not. The problem most people have with stats is that they dont know the correlation the numbers have with a players usage. If Tay were to have an increased role his numbers could very easily drop, some players arent meant for stardom and Tay is definitely one of them.


Thats how amazing he was that year, he was comparable to MJ the difference was that MJ had great teammates alongside him, seriously though hes not MJ, thats not what Im saying. He was the best a perimeter player ever has been since MJ that year, but I know the point your trying to make. Whats the difference?


Tmac has had more success its that simple (See how easy it is to argue when this is your choice of words.) Vince had 1 season that was comparable to Tmac's stay in Orlando, and Vince never led his team to 50 wins so how could he have had more success. Vince has made 2 All-Nba teams (2nd team and a 3rd team) Tmac has been a 1st teamer twice. Year in, year out Tmac is among the top in MVP voting. Tmac has always been more effective and unless you bring something to the argument Im not going to bother repeating myself. Preferably have it be something tangible, enough of this "its that simple" talk. PROVE IT

By the way Tmac was 19 in Toronto, he wanted to go home to play ALONGSIDE of Grant Hill it definitely wasnt because he couldnt share the spotlight its because he wanted to go home, he wanted Vince to have his own spotlight but that doesnt mean he wouldnt have stayed if thats where his heart was at, this is why I said you dont know much about Tmac's career. I dont blame you, its probably a result of all the hatred surrounding the 2nd round virgin.

I disagree. Not every team will can win a title, but that doesnt mean you should accept that and just lose in the 1st round. make it as easy on yourself as you can to get as far as you can. if that means lose a few games and drop a seed or 2, then by all mean lose. in a case like that, losing is winning.

as far as kobe not winning 1 more game, I think he could have and should have. that year, they could would have gone to the WCF if he would have won just 1 more. I honestly think, the match-up at that time was the best for him. not saying that LA was a better team, but that pheonix gave them the best odds to win. matchups and seedings are everything when it comes to the playoffs and not saying that this drops kobe's legacy but it does reflect negatively on him in the sense that had they won, he it would have definately added to his legacy. and after he won 3, it was a 1 game race for him. that was my point. 1 guy can win a game. he proved that when he scored 81 vs the raps. that was a game they were losing until he turned it up.

did you see tayshaun early this season? he is a stud. while rip was out he picked up his scoring considerably. it doesnt seem like you watch enough detroit ball because he has some serious game. he can slash, tho he isnt known for it. he can shoot, finish, everything. if you put him with cp3 he would average 24+. even if he isnt the best at creating his own, it doesnt matter. run a play for him and he's money. thats why his role is suppose to increase this year.

when i say VC is more successful i mean hes gone further in the playoffs. a far as individual awards, no...tmac has him covered. but as far as riding a team, its no contest at this point.

Chronz
10-08-2008, 01:05 AM
I am 33. I have been watching basketball religiously since 1985. I was the one who stated it. Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean you have to lay down attacks on other threads. I simply state my opinion. I don't need to check stat after stat in a lot of cases. I have watched countless games, that is where I make my opinions. :)

Yea you were the OTHER guy. And where did I lay down attacks? I honestly thought he was the one who said he was 33, I apologized we moved on, so why exactly were you jumping in?

And what does the stat reference have to do with anything?

Chronz
10-08-2008, 02:02 AM
I disagree. Not every team will can win a title, but that doesnt mean you should accept that and just lose in the 1st round.
They didnt accept it, they went into the series with the idea of winning. Its speaks volumes about a teams character on tanking games.


make it as easy on yourself as you can to get as far as you can. if that means lose a few games and drop a seed or 2, then by all mean lose. in a case like that, losing is winning.
Not for teams with self respect, and really when has tanking ever won a team a championship? Besides they dont give out banners for making it to the 2nd round, the facts are in order to be the best you have to beat the best. You have to get thru them anyways so what the point.


as far as kobe not winning 1 more game, I think he could have and should have.
Of course he could have, but its not his fault that they didnt.


that year, they could would have gone to the WCF if he would have won just 1 more.
I doubt that


I honestly think, the match-up at that time was the best for him. not saying that LA was a better team, but that pheonix gave them the best odds to win. matchups and seedings are everything when it comes to the playoffs
Thats your opinion but it really doesnt change anything Ive said.


and not saying that this drops kobe's legacy but it does reflect negatively on him in the sense that had they won, he it would have definately added to his legacy.
Thats obvious


and after he won 3, it was a 1 game race for him. that was my point. 1 guy can win a game. he proved that when he scored 81 vs the raps. that was a game they were losing until he turned it up.
I know the point you were trying to make.
There are 82 games in the season, chances are hes bound to tear up a horrible defensive team eventually, thinking he shouldve done that in a series of 7 games after hes already willed his team to 3, in a stage where the opposing team gets to game plan for you daily is simply irrational. Again him not beating PHX that year doesnt change anything, he lost to the better team plain and simple, its almost as if your saying Kobe should be punished for not getting swept instead.



did you see tayshaun early this season? he is a stud.
Havent you been following Tayshaun his entire career, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs? He is a defensive stud, hes a good player offensively who can take advantage of mismatches but if hes a stud then you have pretty low standards.



while rip was out he picked up his scoring considerably.
LOL, let me guess you saw that first game of the season against Miami right. Sadly you are mistaken, his scoring stayed the same with or without RIP, reason being his role really never changes. He always takes advantage whenever he has a mismatch, hes not very good at carrying an offense day in, day out.

Tayshauns rate of production with and without RIP Actually just without RIP, you can look up his seasonal averages and see they are nearly identical.

MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OREB DREB REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
31.4 55-120 4-15 26-34 15 45 6 3.2 .8 .6 1.6 14
.458 26% 76%


This is why I suggest people pay more attention to their choice of words, granted these are simplistic stats that arent taking into account the pace of the game, and I saw a few of those games and some of them were blowouts but Im willing to bet on a per possession basis, his game doesnt change much.


it doesnt seem like you watch enough detroit ball because he has some serious game. he can slash, tho he isnt known for it. he can shoot, finish, everything.
Of course it seems like that to you, Im disagreeing with your opinion but make no mistake, when this post is done you wont question my basketball IQ.

Ive been watching him since day 1, he takes advantage of being an afterthought of opposing defenses and every now and then he'll have a huge game and thats why people say he could be an all-star but the facts are you put a true all-star in that role and he scores at a much more effective rate. Tayshaun is their glue, hes a great catch and shoot player and an effective post player on the right side of the key but offensively hes pretty much hit the ceiling, hes a low mistake player who isnt overly creative, because of this he will ALWAYS be at his best when hes not a primary option, though I shudder at the thought of how bad a team must be to have Tay as a number 1 option.


if you put him with cp3 he would average 24+. even if he isnt the best at creating his own, it doesnt matter.
Yes it does matter, if you cant create your own look then your limiting your offense, put him with CP3 and he wont ever handle the rock. You really have no objective reason to say he would average 24 when hes shown zero ability to do so.


run a play for him and he's money. thats why his role is suppose to increase this year.
His role has stayed the same for 4 years now, hes gotten better and last year was a career year for him, barely, but if the game was as simple as run a play for him and hes money then any one of his 4 coaches or so wouldve done so. Facts are hes limited offensively which is why hes low on the pecking order behind superior players.



when i say VC is more successful i mean hes gone further in the playoffs.
Then say that, being part of a team that moves to the 2nd round like once or whatever doesnt make an individual more successful.


a far as individual awards, no...tmac has him covered. but as far as riding a team, its no contest at this point.
Dude I really dont care about that, its not what matters anyways. Tmac is a better player period, people in the league know this, why dont you?

barreleffact
10-08-2008, 07:55 AM
They didnt accept it, they went into the series with the idea of winning. Its speaks volumes about a teams character on tanking games.


Not for teams with self respect, and really when has tanking ever won a team a championship? Besides they dont give out banners for making it to the 2nd round, the facts are in order to be the best you have to beat the best. You have to get thru them anyways so what the point.


Of course he could have, but its not his fault that they didnt.


I doubt that


Thats your opinion but it really doesnt change anything Ive said.


Thats obvious


I know the point you were trying to make.
There are 82 games in the season, chances are hes bound to tear up a horrible defensive team eventually, thinking he shouldve done that in a series of 7 games after hes already willed his team to 3, in a stage where the opposing team gets to game plan for you daily is simply irrational. Again him not beating PHX that year doesnt change anything, he lost to the better team plain and simple, its almost as if your saying Kobe should be punished for not getting swept instead.


Havent you been following Tayshaun his entire career, ESPECIALLY in the playoffs? He is a defensive stud, hes a good player offensively who can take advantage of mismatches but if hes a stud then you have pretty low standards.


LOL, let me guess you saw that first game of the season against Miami right. Sadly you are mistaken, his scoring stayed the same with or without RIP, reason being his role really never changes. He always takes advantage whenever he has a mismatch, hes not very good at carrying an offense day in, day out.

Tayshauns rate of production with and without RIP Actually just without RIP, you can look up his seasonal averages and see they are nearly identical.

MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OREB DREB REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
31.4 55-120 4-15 26-34 15 45 6 3.2 .8 .6 1.6 14
.458 26% 76%


This is why I suggest people pay more attention to their choice of words, granted these are simplistic stats that arent taking into account the pace of the game, and I saw a few of those games and some of them were blowouts but Im willing to bet on a per possession basis, his game doesnt change much.


Of course it seems like that to you, Im disagreeing with your opinion but make no mistake, when this post is done you wont question my basketball IQ.

Ive been watching him since day 1, he takes advantage of being an afterthought of opposing defenses and every now and then he'll have a huge game and thats why people say he could be an all-star but the facts are you put a true all-star in that role and he scores at a much more effective rate. Tayshaun is their glue, hes a great catch and shoot player and an effective post player on the right side of the key but offensively hes pretty much hit the ceiling, hes a low mistake player who isnt overly creative, because of this he will ALWAYS be at his best when hes not a primary option, though I shudder at the thought of how bad a team must be to have Tay as a number 1 option.


Yes it does matter, if you cant create your own look then your limiting your offense, put him with CP3 and he wont ever handle the rock. You really have no objective reason to say he would average 24 when hes shown zero ability to do so.


His role has stayed the same for 4 years now, hes gotten better and last year was a career year for him, barely, but if the game was as simple as run a play for him and hes money then any one of his 4 coaches or so wouldve done so. Facts are hes limited offensively which is why hes low on the pecking order behind superior players.


Then say that, being part of a team that moves to the 2nd round like once or whatever doesnt make an individual more successful.


Dude I really dont care about that, its not what matters anyways. Tmac is a better player period, people in the league know this, why dont you?

i think this is gonna be my last post on this. its getting old and dry, but as far as questioning your ball IQ, i appologize. i never meant to discredit you. you are actually one of the ones i respect most on psd.

as far as not tanking just for respect, thats not wise. this is a strategy game and its all about survival. give yourself the best odds. yes, you will have to play the elite teams sooner or later, but why not make that later? the goal isnt the 2nd round, but everytime you advance you increase revenue via tickets, marketablility, etc. i dont see how you would ever not benefit from having a strategy based on playing those you can beat 1st.

no, i dont think that kobe should be punished. lol. not at all. you arent gonna like what I have to say next, but I do not think MJ would have lost in that situation. Kobe wants to be better than MJ, and I still will compare him to MJ. He is just that good. Kobe wont ever be considered better to the masses, and I do not disagree. He isnt better, but he certainly is close to his level. I lost no respect when he lost, but looking at the big picture makes that a difficult series to think about for me. Had he won, he would have gone to the WCF. The next opponent would have been the clippers. the clippers...lol. they were great that year, so it is very arguable that the clips could have won, but i believe Kobe with any help at all would have eaten up the clips.

As far as my expectations, I dont have low ones. I think a lot of people are highly overrated. Monta Ellis, Nash, many more that are considered great. Maybe, i'm just one to value complete game. from what ive seen of tay, he is a stud all around. he never got the touches to have a great scoring average. each player shoots like what, 10-15 shots per game on detroit? their 1st option to score is Rip who averages 18. Allow them to shoot 20-25 and i easily see them getting 20-25 ppg. that isnt unreaistic.

I do not think I ever said VC was a better player than Mac. I said successful. We obviously have different measures of success. I value team success far more than individual ones. One can drop 40 a game, but if they lose, they wont have my respect as far as success. That isnt much of an insult.

JordansBulls
10-08-2008, 10:14 AM
My thing is this. With T-mac the only times you can blame him is in 2006-2007 and perhaps 2007-2008. I feel that whenever your team has the homecourt advantage and the better record as well as if your team is the top seed and they lose, that really no excuses can be given because you were in a favorable situation.
Now the problem is that people are saying he is Jordan, however in reality Jordan is the only player in the top 30 Players All Time to never lose a series with Homecourt Advantage, the better record, the same record, the same seed (finals), higher seed.

What does that mean for T-mac? Well well many other great players have lost with the Homecourt Advantage. T-mac has lost twice with it. Magic lost 3 times with Homecourt Advantage and as a top seed, Kareem 5 times and as a top seed, Bird 3 times and as a top seed, Wilt 5 times and as a top seed, Russell 1 time as a top seed (although he got injured later in the series), Shaq 3 times and as a top seed, Kobe 1 time and also another time as a top seed.

So if T-mac is going to get the blame for losing when the favorite, than so should all of those other legends who have lost series with the homecourt advantage or a top seed.

JMKnick33
10-08-2008, 11:04 AM
I think I saw the formula for making the Hall of Fame somewhere and it said Steve Nash has a great chance of making it because of his 2 MVP awards.

If anybody can find the formula, that would be great. But I found this, but it's not the 'official' formula..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html

JordansBulls
10-08-2008, 11:25 AM
I think I saw the formula for making the Hall of Fame somewhere and it said Steve Nash has a great chance of making it because of his 2 MVP awards.

If anybody can find the formula, that would be great. But I found this, but it's not the 'official' formula..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/hof_prob.html


The formula is ok, however it doesn't count things such as finals mvp's either. True they didn't have them in the 60's, however you must also remember only 2 rounds existed for the playoffs in the 60's for the most as well. So winning a title with only 2 rounds is much different from winning one with 4 rounds and when every team has to play in every round vs a team getting a break in a round in the 60's.

Chronz
10-08-2008, 02:30 PM
My thing is this. With T-mac the only times you can blame him is in 2006-2007 and perhaps 2007-2008. I feel that whenever your team has the homecourt advantage and the better record as well as if your team is the top seed and they lose, that really no excuses can be given because you were in a favorable situation.
Now the problem is that people are saying he is Jordan, however in reality Jordan is the only player in the top 30 Players All Time to never lose a series with Homecourt Advantage, the better record, the same record, the same seed (finals), higher seed.

What does that mean for T-mac? Well well many other great players have lost with the Homecourt Advantage. T-mac has lost twice with it. Magic lost 3 times with Homecourt Advantage and as a top seed, Kareem 5 times and as a top seed, Bird 3 times and as a top seed, Wilt 5 times and as a top seed, Russell 1 time as a top seed (although he got injured later in the series), Shaq 3 times and as a top seed, Kobe 1 time and also another time as a top seed.

So if T-mac is going to get the blame for losing when the favorite, than so should all of those other legends who have lost series with the homecourt advantage or a top seed.

Again its not about having homecourt or not, its about the performance of the players around you and against you. If all of a sudden Pippen and the rest of the Bulls were to have left MJ on his own would you blame MJ for not scoring every point for the team? Its ridiculous logic

Chronz
10-08-2008, 03:02 PM
i think this is gonna be my last post on this. its getting old and dry, but as far as questioning your ball IQ, i appologize. i never meant to discredit you. you are actually one of the ones i respect most on psd.
Fair enough, I hold hold no grudges



as far as not tanking just for respect, thats not wise. this is a strategy game and its all about survival. give yourself the best odds. yes, you will have to play the elite teams sooner or later, but why not make that later?the goal isnt the 2nd round, but everytime you advance you increase revenue via tickets, marketablility, etc. i dont see how you would ever not benefit from having a strategy based on playing those you can beat 1st.
Look there really is no point in talking about this, if you have a problem with a certain teams philosophy go take it up with them, the game isnt about making it past the first round. Its not the ultimate goal and thus a player cannot be held accountable for not tanking to get out of the 1st round. What if Tmac's teammates didnt want to lose, Rocket players have more integrity than you do I guess. What isnt wise is losing and then breaking the momentum you had going into the playoffs. If they play with the mindset that they dont care who they play they may play better, if they go into the mindset that they are WEAK and cant hang with the playoffs teams then they are just going to lose later when they play them. Again what matters is the championship, not money.





no, i dont think that kobe should be punished. lol. not at all. you arent gonna like what I have to say next, but I do not think MJ would have lost in that situation. Kobe wants to be better than MJ, and I still will compare him to MJ. He is just that good. Kobe wont ever be considered better to the masses, and I do not disagree. He isnt better, but he certainly is close to his level.
Its easy to think that way because MJ was never in that situation, he has never willed his clearly inferior team to a 3-1 lead versus a 1 seed. Instead he has lost 3-1 to the Bucks, got swept against the Celtics twice, 4-1 to the Pistons before ever getting past the 1st round.


I lost no respect when he lost, but looking at the big picture makes that a difficult series to think about for me. Had he won, he would have gone to the WCF. The next opponent would have been the clippers. the clippers...lol. they were great that year, so it is very arguable that the clips could have won, but i believe Kobe with any help at all would have eaten up the clips.
The Clippers took the same team to 7 games but yea your right I forgot the seedings, Kobe wouldve likely made the WCF.


As far as my expectations, I dont have low ones. I think a lot of people are highly overrated. Monta Ellis, Nash, many more that are considered great. Maybe, i'm just one to value complete game. from what ive seen of tay, he is a stud all around. he never got the touches to have a great scoring average. each player shoots like what, 10-15 shots per game on detroit? their 1st option to score is Rip who averages 18. Allow them to shoot 20-25 and i easily see them getting 20-25 ppg. that isnt unreaistic.
Tay has a great all-around game, but hes not dominant at any aspect. He never got the touches because hes inferior. And getting into possession usage is a tricky subject, you add usage you better be prepared to account for a drop in efficiency. Obviously if a player got to shoot every time he wanted he would have as a of a high scoring average as he wants but his stats would actually suffer due to the loss in efficiency, when you say Tay could average 25 Im assuming you mean in a way thats beneficial to the team. And that my friend is unrealistic because hes just not that good, hes never shown capable of being that good.



I do not think I ever said VC was a better player than Mac. I said successful.
Your exact words : mac has not had a better career than VC.
What you meant to say, Macs team hasnt made it to the 2nd round the way Vince's has. Because clearly Tmac has had the better career and will go down as the better player, but if you define careers by team success then Robert Horry must be the one of the all-time greats.


We obviously have different measures of success. I value team success far more than individual ones. One can drop 40 a game, but if they lose, they wont have my respect as far as success. That isnt much of an insult.
My way of thinking isnt as simplistic as yours. I value a players game and how much he helps his team. Just because the players team lost doesnt mean he wasnt great. And just because your team wins doesnt make you great.