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JordansBulls
10-03-2008, 08:03 PM
Basketball Reference has now added the Player Efficiency Rating for the NBA Playoffs now and other stats as well.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html


Here are the top 5 PER wise in Playoff History

1. Michael Jordan 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. Tim Duncan 26.04
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69


Offensive Win Shares

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan 26.57
2. Magic Johnson* 23.43
3. Shaquille O'Neal 20.32
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.60


Win Shares in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan 38.67
2. Magic Johnson* 33.15
3. Shaquille O'Neal 31.09
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 27.90
5. Tim Duncan 27.14
6. Larry Bird* 24.71


It's nice to see players that are top 10 head the list.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Is this for a career? I thought Wade had the highest one year PER ever?

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 08:11 PM
duh, it says career. My b

JordansBulls
10-03-2008, 08:14 PM
Is this for a career? I thought Wade had the highest one year PER ever?

He had the highest one for finals. But this encompasses the entire playoffs.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
10-03-2008, 08:28 PM
nice.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 08:33 PM
so, if Kobe is the second coming of MJ, where is he on this list?

camador22
10-03-2008, 08:39 PM
so, if Kobe is the second coming of MJ, where is he on this list?

He's right below Vince Carter :smoking:

JordansBulls
10-03-2008, 08:42 PM
He's right below Vince Carter :smoking:

It's "camador22"

:speechless:

Where you been man? Missed ya around here.

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 08:43 PM
He's right below Vince Carter :smoking:

thanks smart ***. I meant, if Kobe is supposed to be this living legend in all Laker fans minds, why is he not even a top 20 playoff performer of all time?

ARMIN12NBA
10-03-2008, 08:44 PM
Michael Jordan is #1 like usual. Nice to see George Mikan there. Pretty underrated IMO.

camador22
10-03-2008, 08:45 PM
It's "camador22"

:speechless:

Where you been man? Missed ya around here.

Had to take a long break but Im back ;)

FortyDubs
10-03-2008, 08:45 PM
thanks smart ***. I meant, if Kobe is supposed to be this living legend in all Laker fans minds, why is he not even a top 20 playoff performer of all time?

Pretty sure he understood you the first time. :smoking:

camador22
10-03-2008, 08:46 PM
thanks smart ***. I meant, if Kobe is supposed to be this living legend in all Laker fans minds, why is he not even a top 20 playoff performer of all time?

Kobe's flopped a ridiculous amount of times in the postseason. Especially in big games. But overall he's solid

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 08:52 PM
Kobe's flopped a ridiculous amount of times in the postseason. Especially in big games. But overall he's solid

I agree 100%, just get a bit tired of Laker fans even bringing up the comparisons with his majesty, Michael Jordan

camador22
10-03-2008, 08:56 PM
I agree 100%, just get a bit tired of Laker fans even bringing up the comparisons with his majesty, Michael Jordan

The comparison should have been put to reat after the finals. Kobe had the best supposrting cast in the NBA and he still couldn't get the job done. He supporting cast is as good or better then MJ's was. Does anyone honestly think MJ or D-Wade would have choked like Kobe did in game 7

LA_cabals
10-03-2008, 08:57 PM
I agree 100%, just get a bit tired of Laker fans even bringing up the comparisons with his majesty, Michael Jordan

It was you who brought up the comparison, and it is always you who tries to bait\debate with Lakers fans on most topics.

JordansBulls
10-03-2008, 08:58 PM
No need for that discussion here. This is more about some new stats that is on basketball reference that can now be used.

barreleffact
10-03-2008, 10:02 PM
The comparison should have been put to reat after the finals. Kobe had the best supposrting cast in the NBA and he still couldn't get the job done. He supporting cast is as good or better then MJ's was. Does anyone honestly think MJ or D-Wade would have choked like Kobe did in game 7

yes actually I do. wade would have still lost and im bigger on wade than i am kobe. that being said wade has no shot outside the 3. and boston knows he would drive all day. theydve stuck posey on him since theyve played together and then had KG in the paint to rely on. MJ i really dont know. We have NEVER seen what MJ could do in a zone in any championship years. MJ always had a solid number 2 playing great defense for him. and then he also had solid post rebounding and defense. 2 things the lakers lacked. dont blame kobe. it wasnt his fault. IMO it was partially the refs, and of course the result of his young players. STFU w all these Kobe cant be MJ stuff. MJ played in a time when the NBA needed him. yes he always delivered however. but still there is nothing MJ could do that kobe cant. give Kobe another top 50 greatest player in history and a team that wins more than 60 games consistantly like jordan had and im sure he will carry then to more rings

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 10:14 PM
It was you who brought up the comparison, and it is always you who tries to bait\debate with Lakers fans on most topics.

of course I do, because Laker fans are mostly irrational. They do not see the big picture, they only see purple and gold. Someone has to bring common sense and nonbias to the converstion. Thank you for playing

Hawkeye15
10-03-2008, 10:17 PM
yes actually I do. wade would have still lost and im bigger on wade than i am kobe. that being said wade has no shot outside the 3. and boston knows he would drive all day. theydve stuck posey on him since theyve played together and then had KG in the paint to rely on. MJ i really dont know. We have NEVER seen what MJ could do in a zone in any championship years. MJ always had a solid number 2 playing great defense for him. and then he also had solid post rebounding and defense. 2 things the lakers lacked. dont blame kobe. it wasnt his fault. IMO it was partially the refs, and of course the result of his young players. STFU w all these Kobe cant be MJ stuff. MJ played in a time when the NBA needed him. yes he always delivered however. but still there is nothing MJ could do that kobe cant. give Kobe another top 50 greatest player in history and a team that wins more than 60 games consistantly like jordan had and im sure he will carry then to more rings

MJ also played in an era of great centers, and no hand check rules. He earned his baskets. In today's game, he would get 40 ppg and make everyone look silly. The Lakers, according to these forums, have a top 10 player at each forward position. MJ could do everything that Kobe can't. He delivered when it mattered most, as the best player on his team, not the second fiddle. Look, Kobe is a great player. But the MJ comparisons are laughable, and that is being kind.

23LBJCleBrowns
10-03-2008, 11:50 PM
LeBron will be on that list one day.

GregOden#1
10-03-2008, 11:52 PM
had to take a long break but im back ;)

camadaor!!!

AllTheWay
10-03-2008, 11:52 PM
thanks smart ***. I meant, if Kobe is supposed to be this living legend in all Laker fans minds, why is he not even a top 20 playoff performer of all time?

Neither is Bill Russell, yet many call himt he greatest center ever, even with that horrible PER of his.

Lebron23
10-03-2008, 11:53 PM
LeBron will be on that list one day.

He's on the lists. LeBron is a top 10 performer in the playoffs base on the Per Rankings.

GregOden#1
10-03-2008, 11:56 PM
Neither is Bill Russell, yet many call himt he greatest center ever, even with that horrible PER of his.

Since when does PER take into account defense?

Hawkeye15
10-04-2008, 12:08 AM
Neither is Bill Russell, yet many call himt he greatest center ever, even with that horrible PER of his.

they didn't take stats like blocks and steals in that day. If you add Russell's blocks, he moves into the top 10. :)

cahawk
10-04-2008, 03:17 AM
thanks smart ***. I meant, if Kobe is supposed to be this living legend in all Laker fans minds, why is he not even a top 20 playoff performer of all time?


Ding, Ding, Ding we have a winner folks.

Chronz
10-04-2008, 04:12 AM
I wouldnt be calling this a list of the top playoff performers

sp1derm00
10-04-2008, 05:08 AM
There is a pretty simple explanation on why Kobe's career playoff PER is low... Kobe's 2 years of coming off the bench at the start of his career had a big impact in his career playoffs PER...

Kobe currently averages 24.3 ppg 5.0 rpg 4.6apg

take out his first two years of not starting and his numbers become 27ppg 5.5rpg 5.1apg which is a lot more efficient... considering he shot extremely poorly his first two seasons as well.

A bunch of haters might say that it doesn't matter... but take a look at the PER leaders. none of them had to play in a playoff game without starting or at least getting starter minutes.

VC and Tmac both got at LEAST double Kobe's minutes in each of their first playoff games... and Kobe has played in a lot more games.

MoBASS
10-04-2008, 05:30 AM
Any list that has Vince Carter ahead of Kobe Bryant regarding basketball skills is useless. Thanks for the post, but PER means nothing.

JordansBulls
10-04-2008, 08:30 AM
There is a pretty simple explanation on why Kobe's career playoff PER is low... Kobe's 2 years of coming off the bench at the start of his career had a big impact in his career playoffs PER...

Kobe currently averages 24.3 ppg 5.0 rpg 4.6apg

take out his first two years of not starting and his numbers become 27ppg 5.5rpg 5.1apg which is a lot more efficient... considering he shot extremely poorly his first two seasons as well.

A bunch of haters might say that it doesn't matter... but take a look at the PER leaders. none of them had to play in a playoff game without starting or at least getting starter minutes.

VC and Tmac both got at LEAST double Kobe's minutes in each of their first playoff games... and Kobe has played in a lot more games.

True, however here his PER numbers from 1999 in the playoffs till now.


'98-99 - 19.1
'99-00 - 19.3
'00-01 - 25.0
'01-02 - 20.5
'02-03 - 22.2
'03-04 - 21.0
'05-06 - 19.8
'06-07 - 24.2
'07-08 - 25.0

If you just use those his PER would be between 21.79 and 23.25

Chronz
10-04-2008, 02:19 PM
Any list that has Vince Carter ahead of Kobe Bryant regarding basketball skills is useless. Thanks for the post, but PER means nothing.
LOL Your post was useless

JOSETHEALLSTAR
10-04-2008, 02:24 PM
nice Mj is a beast

_Sn1P3r_
10-04-2008, 02:35 PM
Can't argue with that. ^

Beno7500
10-04-2008, 02:50 PM
cool

Hawkeye15
10-04-2008, 03:06 PM
There is a pretty simple explanation on why Kobe's career playoff PER is low... Kobe's 2 years of coming off the bench at the start of his career had a big impact in his career playoffs PER...

Kobe currently averages 24.3 ppg 5.0 rpg 4.6apg

take out his first two years of not starting and his numbers become 27ppg 5.5rpg 5.1apg which is a lot more efficient... considering he shot extremely poorly his first two seasons as well.

A bunch of haters might say that it doesn't matter... but take a look at the PER leaders. none of them had to play in a playoff game without starting or at least getting starter minutes.

VC and Tmac both got at LEAST double Kobe's minutes in each of their first playoff games... and Kobe has played in a lot more games.


hating has nothing to do with it. Manu Ginoboli came off the bench last year, and was among the league leaders in PER. Kobe hasn't performed in the playoffs like many ahead of him. You can list excuse after excuse. Fact is, he has never been capable of leading a championship team. He is 28, so he has some time left to dispell that. But that is the reality to this point.

Storch
10-04-2008, 04:11 PM
hating has nothing to do with it. Manu Ginoboli came off the bench last year, and was among the league leaders in PER. Kobe hasn't performed in the playoffs like many ahead of him. You can list excuse after excuse. Fact is, he has never been capable of leading a championship team. He is 28, so he has some time left to dispell that. But that is the reality to this point.

I read alot of your posts and you bring up kobe alot, u like to bait. You must have alot of hate for the guy. IMO theres no point in comparing mj to kobe, why bother? PER means nothing and everyone knows that, its just a stat to look at. Actually stats are generally overrated in the first place. It doesnt describe what a truly great player really is made of.

JordansBulls
10-04-2008, 04:15 PM
PER means nothing and everyone knows that, its just a stat to look at. Actually stats are generally overrated in the first place. It doesnt describe what a truly great player really is made of.

PER means nothing if you don't understand what it is used for. Stats in general give a sense that a player is great, but all factors must be considered in determining how great a player really is.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2008, 04:48 PM
I read alot of your posts and you bring up kobe alot, u like to bait. You must have alot of hate for the guy. IMO theres no point in comparing mj to kobe, why bother? PER means nothing and everyone knows that, its just a stat to look at. Actually stats are generally overrated in the first place. It doesnt describe what a truly great player really is made of.

I think Kobe is a great player, but not a living legend like Laker fans do. Over half the posts by Laker fans are baits, regardless of whether or not they consider them to be. The posts on these boards can be so irrational at times, it blows my mind. I respect Kobe on the floor, but not as a person.
PER is a valuable number, if you know how it works. Is it a complete measure of a player? No. But it is very telling on their level of productivity.

fredv
10-04-2008, 05:23 PM
Wow, Funny to think that TMAC is at 6 when he never past the first round of the playoffs!

Chronz
10-04-2008, 05:32 PM
Wow, Funny to think that TMAC is at 6 when he never past the first round of the playoffs!

Look up the PER of his teammates in the playoffs compared to the team hes facing.

Lebron23
10-04-2008, 08:49 PM
Per is not useless because it proves that Michael Jordan and Shaq were the 2 most dominant player in the last 20 years.

Hawkeye15
10-04-2008, 09:41 PM
Per is not useless because it proves that Michael Jordan and Shaq were the 2 most dominant player in the last 20 years.

exactly. PER is only useless if you are a Laker fan and see that Kobe isn't a top playoff performer. Now all of a sudden stats don't matter. And keep in mind, they didn't keep blocks and steals before the late 70's, so many of these players would fall when Russell for example moves into the picture. Not the top guys, but everyone else. PER is a great indication of productivity. Lakers fans should love it, it shows Bynum being a top 30 player. Isn't that what they have been griping about all along?

Bynumtheman
10-05-2008, 01:15 AM
Bynum will led the league n Per

Storch
10-05-2008, 01:42 AM
Bynum will led the league n Per

Its dumb comments like these that make laker fans look bad. Im tired of defending myself because of these types of people.

cmellofan15
10-05-2008, 01:45 AM
^ Ha! They make a good stereotype though.

LakerzDQ
10-05-2008, 03:47 AM
Its dumb comments like these that make laker fans look bad. Im tired of defending myself because of these types of people.

that's not a laker fan. I assure you he's just some dumbass who's trying to make laker fans look bad. trying to mock those who say bynum is a beast.

Lakersfan2483
10-05-2008, 05:37 AM
The PER rating is not the only measure of greatness, so many great players were not mentioned as having the highest PER but it does not take away from what they were able to accomplish. Some prime examples: M. Malone, Dr. J, Kobe Bryant, B. Russell, K.Garnett, Barkley, Wilt Chamberlain, John Havlicek, B. Cousy, Isaiah Thomas, and so on. The PER rating is not the only way to gauge a player's greatness on the court, in fact, it's an overrated statistic. Give me a guy that can produce, lead a team, and win, that is all that matters.

Lakersfan2483
10-05-2008, 05:42 AM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;6885056]I think Kobe is a great player, but not a living legend like Laker fans do. Over half the posts by Laker fans are baits, regardless of whether or not they consider them to be. The posts on these boards can be so irrational at times, it blows my mind. I respect Kobe on the floor, but not as a person.
PER is a valuable number, if you know how it works. Is it a complete measure of a player? No. But it is very telling on their level of productivity.[/QUOTE

PER is not that valuable, give me a winner like B. Russell, and we can throw PER out the door. Bill Russell flat out won, was a leader, and is top ten all time, no matter what. PER is overrated.

Chronz
10-05-2008, 02:51 PM
PER is not that valuable, give me a winner like B. Russell, and we can throw PER out the door. Bill Russell flat out won, was a leader, and is top ten all time, no matter what. PER is overrated.

You fall under the dont know what your talking about category, you see Bill Russel didnt have great stats so why would a statistical formula rate him high? Russel was all about defense and positional defense isnt taken into account in PER. Why would you buy a Porsche only to complain that it doesnt fit your entire family?

If Bill Russell isnt at the top of PER then PER is doing what its suppose to do, its your brain that is failing you.

LakersOrNothing
10-05-2008, 06:55 PM
OMFG LIK WTFZ KOBE NOT #1!???

OMG plz showz me where teh closes cliff is so i can jump off plz! OMFG ROFLCOPTERLAWL HELPZ ME

Wow, who gives a ****.

oshea225
10-05-2008, 06:59 PM
not that big of a kobe fan, but i gotta respect the dude for what hes done.
3 rings, 1 mvp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playoff PER

Hawkeye15
10-05-2008, 07:06 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;6885056]I think Kobe is a great player, but not a living legend like Laker fans do. Over half the posts by Laker fans are baits, regardless of whether or not they consider them to be. The posts on these boards can be so irrational at times, it blows my mind. I respect Kobe on the floor, but not as a person.
PER is a valuable number, if you know how it works. Is it a complete measure of a player? No. But it is very telling on their level of productivity.[/QUOTE

PER is not that valuable, give me a winner like B. Russell, and we can throw PER out the door. Bill Russell flat out won, was a leader, and is top ten all time, no matter what. PER is overrated.

If they would have kept blocks as a stat back then, he moves into top 10. I posted that like 2 pages ago. Get over it dude. Kobe is not a great playoff performer. KG is not either, he always is a top 2-3 in regular season PER, but has not performed in the playoffs with the same success. Some great players can't get it done when it counts. Others get lucky, and have a teammate who can, so they get that ring(s)

alexander_37
10-05-2008, 07:31 PM
tmac #6 :smoking:

oshea225
10-05-2008, 07:34 PM
tmac #6 :smoking:

thats b/c he hasnt had to deal with anything past the first round :cool:

Hawkeye15
10-05-2008, 07:34 PM
tmac #6 :smoking:

Therein lies the issue with PER. It only means wins if you have support. PER doesn't translate to wins all the time. It only defines individual production.

Lakersfan2483
10-05-2008, 08:04 PM
[QUOTE=Chronz;6898763]You fall under the dont know what your talking about category, you see Bill Russel didnt have great stats so why would a statistical formula rate him high? Russel was all about defense and positional defense isnt taken into account in PER. Why would you buy a Porsche only to complain that it doesnt fit your entire family?

If Bill Russell isnt at the top of PER then PER is doing what its suppose to do, its your brain that is failing you.[/QUOTE

My point was that PER is not the only true measure of greatness.

Lakersfan2483
10-05-2008, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=Lakersfan2483;6894820]

If they would have kept blocks as a stat back then, he moves into top 10. I posted that like 2 pages ago. Get over it dude. Kobe is not a great playoff performer. KG is not either, he always is a top 2-3 in regular season PER, but has not performed in the playoffs with the same success. Some great players can't get it done when it counts. Others get lucky, and have a teammate who can, so they get that ring(s)

KG never had the teammates until this year to win, he has always been a good playoff performer. My critcism with KG was the fact that he did not take over enough during crunch time. He tends to defer too much, but his numbers have been good during the postseason.

For you to say Kobe is not a good playoff performer is utterly ridiculous. Kobe has had his negative moments, but he has had some classic performances as well. You have to do your homework on Kobe. For this past postseason, he shot .48pct from the field for the entire playoffs and avg. 30 points a game. I will admit he did not perform up to par in the finals. He avg. 25ppg on .40pct shooting which was not good at all, but he has had great moments in the playoffs throughout his career. Look at his numbers.

Lakersfan2483
10-05-2008, 08:19 PM
Therein lies the issue with PER. It only means wins if you have support. PER doesn't translate to wins all the time. It only defines individual production.

Agree with you on this point.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2008, 10:43 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;6903104]

KG never had the teammates until this year to win, he has always been a good playoff performer. My critcism with KG was the fact that he did not take over enough during crunch time. He tends to defer too much, but his numbers have been good during the postseason.

For you to say Kobe is not a good playoff performer is utterly ridiculous. Kobe has had his negative moments, but he has had some classic performances as well. You have to do your homework on Kobe. For this past postseason, he shot .48pct from the field for the entire playoffs and avg. 30 points a game. I will admit he did not perform up to par in the finals. He avg. 25ppg on .40pct shooting which was not good at all, but he has had great moments in the playoffs throughout his career. Look at his numbers.

As a Wolves fan, I am the biggest KG fan ever. But yeah, he is not a closer. Not his thing unfortunatley. Kobe has played well in the postseason, but he was second banana when Shaq was there. You can bring up stats from his ring days, they aren't important, Shaq drew so much attention it allowed Kobe to roam. Wade got the same support a few years later, and had the highest PER ever in the finals. But when it has counted most, and Kobe hasn't had that big man down low to take the burden, he hasn't come thru. It is not a big criticism. Few have. He is 28, he has time to dispell the reality, that he can't do it without Shaq. He just has to go out and do it. Straight up. God, can Laker fans get over the fact that I call Kobe out, and instead call their own star out, like they should be?? He hasn't won you a ring. Shaq did. He was the innocent bystander with talent. If the Heat championship didn't show you who was more important, you just don't pay attention.

Chronz
10-05-2008, 11:07 PM
My point was that PER is not the only true measure of greatness.

You should find better ways of making your point, thats an entirely different stance than your last post suggests.

cahawk
10-06-2008, 03:45 AM
Hawkeye15 posted:

As a Wolves fan, I am the biggest KG fan ever. But yeah, he is not a closer. Not his thing unfortunatley. Kobe has played well in the postseason, but he was second banana when Shaq was there. You can bring up stats from his ring days, they aren't important, Shaq drew so much attention it allowed Kobe to roam. Wade got the same support a few years later, and had the highest PER ever in the finals. But when it has counted most, and Kobe hasn't had that big man down low to take the burden, he hasn't come thru. It is not a big criticism. Few have. He is 28, he has time to dispell the reality, that he can't do it without Shaq. He just has to go out and do it. Straight up. God, can Laker fans get over the fact that I call Kobe out, and instead call their own star out, like they should be?? He hasn't won you a ring. Shaq did. He was the innocent bystander with talent. If the Heat championship didn't show you who was more important, you just don't pay attention.

Hawkeye15 laker fans (make that kobe fans) don't want to hear the truth.
When kobe does well they say this is the real kobe but when he does poorly or stats show the king has no clothes they have a million and one appologists for kobe.
They need to accept him for what he is rather than trying to make him their alter ego superman. And hold kobe responsible like they would anyother player.
kobe is a good player but kobe & his fans believe the narcistic image is reality.

JordansBulls
10-07-2008, 12:49 PM
Hawkeye15 posted:

As a Wolves fan, I am the biggest KG fan ever. But yeah, he is not a closer. Not his thing unfortunatley. Kobe has played well in the postseason, but he was second banana when Shaq was there. You can bring up stats from his ring days, they aren't important, Shaq drew so much attention it allowed Kobe to roam. Wade got the same support a few years later, and had the highest PER ever in the finals. But when it has counted most, and Kobe hasn't had that big man down low to take the burden, he hasn't come thru. It is not a big criticism. Few have. He is 28, he has time to dispell the reality, that he can't do it without Shaq. He just has to go out and do it. Straight up. God, can Laker fans get over the fact that I call Kobe out, and instead call their own star out, like they should be?? He hasn't won you a ring. Shaq did. He was the innocent bystander with talent. If the Heat championship didn't show you who was more important, you just don't pay attention.

Hawkeye15 laker fans (make that kobe fans) don't want to hear the truth.
When kobe does well they say this is the real kobe but when he does poorly or stats show the king has no clothes they have a million and one appologists for kobe.
They need to accept him for what he is rather than trying to make him their alter ego superman. And hold kobe responsible like they would anyother player.
kobe is a good player but kobe & his fans believe the narcistic image is reality.

:nod:

This point is also interesting because when Dirk and Lebron didn't do too well in the finals people end up calling them guys who can't perform on the big stage and call them chokers, which really isn't the case unless you are comparing them to guys who perform well on the big stage and only a handful of guys have done that.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2008, 01:08 PM
Hawkeye15 posted:

As a Wolves fan, I am the biggest KG fan ever. But yeah, he is not a closer. Not his thing unfortunatley. Kobe has played well in the postseason, but he was second banana when Shaq was there. You can bring up stats from his ring days, they aren't important, Shaq drew so much attention it allowed Kobe to roam. Wade got the same support a few years later, and had the highest PER ever in the finals. But when it has counted most, and Kobe hasn't had that big man down low to take the burden, he hasn't come thru. It is not a big criticism. Few have. He is 28, he has time to dispell the reality, that he can't do it without Shaq. He just has to go out and do it. Straight up. God, can Laker fans get over the fact that I call Kobe out, and instead call their own star out, like they should be?? He hasn't won you a ring. Shaq did. He was the innocent bystander with talent. If the Heat championship didn't show you who was more important, you just don't pay attention.

Hawkeye15 laker fans (make that kobe fans) don't want to hear the truth.
When kobe does well they say this is the real kobe but when he does poorly or stats show the king has no clothes they have a million and one appologists for kobe.
They need to accept him for what he is rather than trying to make him their alter ego superman. And hold kobe responsible like they would anyother player.
kobe is a good player but kobe & his fans believe the narcistic image is reality.

I know. I sometimes feel like I am talking to a wall with Laker/Kobe fans. Some of them are reasonable. But many are not. They see nothing outside purple and gold, and have nothing but excuses when their team fails. It is what it is. It is great to love your team, and be passionate. But there is a difference between being loyal to your team, and seeing someone for what they really are. There are only a handful of players throughout history that are clear cut, superstars, who win when it counts. I just find it funny that when I call out Kobe for his faults, I get blasted. Even Jordan failed once in a while. But he succeded far more often. Therein lies the difference.