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View Full Version : The best & the worst off season move?



Spazzola
10-01-2008, 09:51 PM
:cheers::hide:Best...The Rockets acquisition of Ron Artest.
Worst...The Nugget's dumping Camby's salary.

Hawkeye15
10-01-2008, 09:54 PM
the best, Brand to the Sixers

worst, New Jersey/Denver fire sales.

Joe505
10-01-2008, 10:08 PM
worst leting Baron Davis go.

BRADfromOZ
10-01-2008, 10:10 PM
:cheers::hide:Best...The Rockets acquisition of Ron Artest.
Worst...The Nugget's dumping Camby's salary.
+1 :confused: What were Denver thinking?

IversonIsKrazy
10-01-2008, 10:14 PM
Best: JO in TO
Worst: Camby trade: denvers perspective

Beno7500
10-01-2008, 10:30 PM
Denver letting go of camby

RoyalG333
10-01-2008, 10:52 PM
Artest to Houston, Brand to Sixers, Davis to Clippers, JO to Toronto all deserve the top spot in moves. Worst HAS to be Denver giving up Camby. They already had problems on the defensive end, and it aint gonna get any easier without Camby.

JOSETHEALLSTAR
10-01-2008, 11:04 PM
:cheers::hide:Best...The Rockets acquisition of Ron Artest.
Worst...The Nugget's dumping Camby's salary.

i agree

AirJordanXVIII
10-01-2008, 11:23 PM
Brand to Sixers

Camby out of Denver (horrible)... You could of at least got a young prospect in return....

DenButsu
10-01-2008, 11:30 PM
Everybody is so confused about the Camby move. It really was a good one. You folks just don't understand it.

sacgiants1213
10-01-2008, 11:34 PM
maggette to golden state is a pretty bad move

Lakersfan2483
10-01-2008, 11:38 PM
Best Moves: Brand to Philly, B. Davis to LA CLippers, Artest to Houston, Cleveland picking up M. Williams

Worst Moves: Detorit signing Kwame Brown, Nuggets trading Camby for a 2nd rounder

charlsdq7
10-01-2008, 11:45 PM
Best: Brand to 76Ers
Worst: Nuggets giving Camby away for free...

JMan17
10-01-2008, 11:54 PM
Everybody is so confused about the Camby move. It really was a good one. You folks just don't understand it.

then plz explain why it was such a great move?

Jwizel_hitshrs
10-01-2008, 11:59 PM
Jo to t.o

bambam27
10-02-2008, 12:08 AM
J O 2 T.O

denver lettin go of camby.

kylem4711
10-02-2008, 12:24 AM
Everybody is so confused about the Camby move. It really was a good one. You folks just don't understand it.

your right. you are smarter then everyone in the world

DenButsu
10-02-2008, 01:05 AM
then plz explain why it was such a great move?

Well, first of all let me just say that I understand why people don't understand. I didn't understand it at first, and I was pissed. But I have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I do support the move.

Here is the main reason that most people give for thinking the Camby trade was stupid:

"Denver, one of the worst defensive teams in the league, gave away its best defensive player for nothing."

And every time I see that, I immediately can see that the person doesn't really uderstand the move. Why? Because there are three main assumptions in that statement:

1. Camby was Denver's best defensive player
2. Denver gave him away for nothing
3. Denver was one of the worst defensive teams in the league last year

And all three of those are just plain wrong. So breaking them down:

1. Camby was Denver's best shot blocker and rebounder, but not their best overall defender. That honor would go to Kenyon Martin and/or Eduardo Najera, with Camby coming in a fairly distant 3rd (and even then, possibly tied with Anthony Carter). I mean, you guys did watch the Lakers series, right? Q: How does Pau Gasol slice up an NBA frontcourt like cream cheese? A: When it's anchored by someone as soft as Marcus Camby, and the genuine on-the-ball frontcourt defender is out on the perimeter guarding Kobe Bryant. And that's only one example. But anybody who watched a significant number of Nuggets games last season knows that, with a good degree of consistency, the Nuggets defense often improved when Camby was benched and Najera and K-Mart were holding the middle. Simply put, Camby did little else but block and rebound on the defensive end. And even in those areas, he is on a rapidly declining trajectory: And here's the proof. (http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/1130/camby0708ud9.png) He's 34 years old and most definitely on the downward side of his career, and he's making $10 million a year for the next 2 years. Sure, his rebounding and shot blocking will be missed, but it's not the tragic loss that everybody is making it out to be.

2. While it's true that the Clippers gave nothing for Camby - and in that sense it was a steal for them - it is certainly not true that the Nuggets gave him away for nothing. In fact, the Nuggets got two very important things in return for dumping Camby. Firstly, a $10 million trade exception that will most likely be used in June 2009 after AI's contract expires and his $21 million salary comes off the books. If you look around the league at the real needs and wants of most teams, this gives the Nuggets better trade value than they could possibly have had by directly trading Camby himself. Why? Well, because of his age and declining performance that I described above, along with the financial reality of today's NBA in which nearly every team is constantly looking for a way to cut payroll. The Nuggets were also criticized for trading their 2008 1st for a future 1st. But think about it. There were viable rumors, for example, about a Camby+1st for Hinrich trade, which most Bulls and Nuggets fans seemed to think was an all-around reasonable deal. Well, in the eyes of most GMs, a future 1st + a trade exception will look even better, and the Nuggets should definitely be able to get a quality player next summer. The other thing that Denver got was financial relief of an extraordinarily rare nature - they gave away salary, and took NONE back in return. They didn't have to buy out his contract. They didn't have to take a crap player with an expiring who would bloat up the payroll for a season and cost double due to the luxury tax. Just a pure, clean savings of $40 million. (It's worth pointing out, too, that the Knicks attempted to do the same thing with Balkman, a deal which the Nuggets got the better end of, while the Knicks barely saved any money at all).

3. Denver was not the worst defensive team in the NBA last season, or anywhere close to it, really. And I'll just let Hollinger (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=NuggetsForecast0809) take this one for me:
Every analysis of the Nuggets described them as a group of talented offensive players who lost because they didn't play any defense. And everybody who wrote that was dead wrong.

The Nuggets were about as good on defense last season as they were on offense. Getting anybody to actually believe this has proven quite difficult, but it's nonetheless true. Denver ranked higher in defensive efficiency (9th) than in offensive efficiency (11th), and while the offense was slightly better relative to the league average, the D wasn't chopped liver at 1.5 points beneath the league norm.

The problem, of course, is that a lot of observers don't understand pace. The Nuggets played the league's fastest pace, by far (see chart), which had two effects. First, all their games looked like glorified street-ball contests, which contributed to the notion that the team didn't play any defense. And second, the Nuggets tended to both score and give up high numbers of points, cementing the idea that they were an offensive outfit untroubled by defense.

Comparing their raw per-game numbers with their per-possessions stats cements this point. In raw terms, Denver was second in points scored and 29th in points allowed, and unfortunately some people still treat these numbers as if they matter. But Nuggets games had eight more possessions by each side than the average game for the rest of the league, so it would have been hard for them not to have higher-scoring games than 28 other teams.


So basically all of the reasons everybody has for thinking the Camby trade was stupid are bogus. And on the flip side of it, as we start the new season without him, I think we'll be a better team. I won't get into that here, though, since I already wrote a blog about it before (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269010).

In the short term, the Nuggets will probably struggle. Camby has been holding the middle forever, and his absence will throw things off kilter for a while, no doubt. But once the team gets its bearings I think it will be just as good defensively as last season, and in terms of properly building around Melo, J.R. and Nene, and in terms of the longer term financial situation, the Camby trade was a shrewd move by the Nuggets front office.

------------------

And now you'll probably think twice before ever asking me to explain something again. :laugh2: Sorry for the length, but I just wanted to be clear and thorough.

DenButsu
10-02-2008, 01:07 AM
your right. you are smarter then everyone in the world

No, I've just spent more time thinking about this from the Nuggets' perspective, and come to realize that it actually did make sense. Most people haven't really done that, they've only made a snap judgment based on how it looks on the surface. And I'll be the first to agree that yes, on the surface, it does look bad. But there's a lot more to it than that (as I just posted above). That's all I'm saying.

KnicksWin
10-02-2008, 01:29 AM
Best-Knicks Fire Isiah Thomas and Hire D'antoni&Walsh (Seriously, think about we didn't change the roster, but we did change the direction of the franchise which is more important.)

Worst-Knicks not dumping Randolph to the Clips

BRADfromOZ
10-02-2008, 02:44 AM
If the Nuggets had gotten a 1st round pick I'd have much less of a "wtf did they really trade him for nothing" reaction. I understand the reasons why but am still shocked that they did that trade.

DenButsu
10-02-2008, 03:02 AM
It was a bold, controversial move. "Shocked" is the right word for what it looks like.

Here's a scouting report of Camby's defense vs. Nene's defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjkRJ6DgKro&eurl=http://www.pickaxeandroll.com/) that illustrates exactly why I think we'll be just as good if not better with Nene at the 5 instead of Camby. Just lucked into finding it right now. Consider it the punctuation mark to my long-*** post above. :cool:

LakerzDQ
10-02-2008, 04:13 AM
It was a bold, controversial move. "Shocked" is the right word for what it looks like.

Here's a scouting report of Camby's defense vs. Nene's defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjkRJ6DgKro&eurl=http://www.pickaxeandroll.com/) that illustrates exactly why I think we'll be just as good if not better with Nene at the 5 instead of Camby. Just lucked into finding it right now. Consider it the punctuation mark to my long-*** post above. :cool:

I think people already knew that Camby's man defense was poor. but nuggets will miss his rebounding and shot blocking.

nice post tho, I've always been saying the Camby trade wasn't as bad as some people made it out to be.

Fireworld
10-02-2008, 04:25 AM
this thread is a broken record.

Chronz
10-02-2008, 04:50 AM
I think people already knew that Camby's man defense was poor. but nuggets will miss his rebounding and shot blocking.

nice post tho, I've always been saying the Camby trade wasn't as bad as some people made it out to be.

The idea is that they wont miss his rebounding and shot blocking because they will be able to force much more misses and stops. The best defenders are the ones that contest shots. So many things have to come to play for the Nuggets to be better (JR-Nene-Kmarts health/PT are at the heart of the matter) but none are out of the question.

LakerzDQ
10-02-2008, 05:41 AM
The idea is that they wont miss his rebounding and shot blocking because they will be able to force much more misses and stops. The best defenders are the ones that contest shots. So many things have to come to play for the Nuggets to be better (JR-Nene-Kmarts health/PT are at the heart of the matter) but none are out of the question.

well, they don't have very good perimeter defense, with all their gambling. guards will easily drive in for layups. Camby was able to discourage that by doing some shot blocking. I guess Nene and Kmart are decent shot blockers, but they aren't as good as Camby.

Camby got a lot of offensive rebounds for them as well.

Chronz
10-02-2008, 06:03 AM
well, they don't have very good perimeter defense, with all their gambling. guards will easily drive in for layups. Camby was able to discourage that by doing some shot blocking. I guess Nene and Kmart are decent shot blockers, but they aren't as good as Camby.

Camby got a lot of offensive rebounds for them as well.

Actually Nene is the better offensive rebounder so replacing Camby with Nene should result in more possessions offensively.

As for their perimeter D Ive always found it to be soft but Den would be better equipped at telling us how they defended from the perimeter on iso's, off the ball cuts and screans, and their pick and roll philosophy (the one aspect I think Camby really has in his favor defensively), judging from the stats they were elite at defending PG's, middle of the pack at 2's, and among western playoff teams only the suns defended the 3 worse. Though relatively speaking the Nuggets as a whole werent TERRIBLE defensively.

DenButsu
10-02-2008, 09:24 AM
"Elite at defending PG's" - I am actually quite surprised to hear that. Not so surprised to hear that the softest spot was at the 3, though (Melo).

Our biggest defensive weakness has long been the perimeter, and Camby did help to go a long way in masking that by getting the back of the guys on the wings who let their assignments through. So AI and J.R. are going to have to change their risk taking mentality and play a more honest style of defense now. They can no longer afford to go for a steal on virtually every possession. And overall, Melo just has to stop being lazy on the defensive end. He has all the tools to be a solid defender, he's just never chosen to put them into full employement. I'm encouraged by two things, though. One is his performance in the Olympics, where he seemed not only to accept but to actually take great enjoyment in being more of a defender/rebounder/little things type role player. His team-oriented attitude - as it manifested itself in his on-court play - was great, and I have high hopes he'll make a continuation of that into this regular season with the Nuggets. And the second thing is the reports from training camp, which is this year laser focused on defense, and seems to have an air of enthusiasm and intensity that's been lacking in recent seasons. It's my hope that reports like this will prove to be things that stick and not things that they play with now and abandon once the season starts, because it's going to require continued efforts along these lines for Denver's D to be successful:


Without Camby, Karl said the defensive philosophy will change toward players rotating more quickly to the perimeter.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/29/nuggets-placing-emphasis-on-defense/


the first practice of the 2008-09 season was entirely devoted to the defensive end of the floor. Over the past couple of seasons it hasn't been unusual to hear head coach George Karl preach defense to his team. However, the team never appeared overly enthusiastic about the idea and the focus on defense seemed to wane as the season progressed.

On Tuesday, though, something was qualitatively different. The players had a different kind of energy and practice was indeed devoted entirely to defense. The Nuggets were playing full-speed and working on an aggressive trapping defensive scheme on the perimeter. The way the players were talking defensively and the overall intensity level was a lot like watching a college team.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_