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View Full Version : 2009 Position Changes: Inge back at 3B, Guillen to LF



Epic89
09-28-2008, 02:09 AM
This is best, and would they should've been doing for a while.

Inge, for all his offensive shortcomings, is pacman down at 3B; he gobbles up everything. With him at 3rd, if they could get a guy like Orlando Cabrera in the offseason, they'd suddenly have a great defensive infield, particularly the left side. Inge got his wish; he better be productive.

Left field to me is no huge deal; it's where many teams, good teams (Cubs with Soriano, Dodgers with Manny), are weakest defensively. Guillen should do fine. I wonder if they'd be content with a Joyce/Thames platoon and entertain the thought of trading him though, bullpen help or a pitcher maybe?

And this leaves a hole at catcher. I'm not sold on Dusty Ryan yet and think they need a veteran guy. Does Pudge come back now, or maybe Rochester-born Jason Varitek?

I like this though; glad to see they're making defense a priority. It was porous this past season

JackB
09-28-2008, 08:42 AM
They better keep Thames and Joyce to replace Guillen when his back acts up like it does three or four times a season. Granderson better make sure he's in excellent condition going into the season. He will have to cover a little more ground toward left field.

cwilson21
09-28-2008, 07:55 PM
Beat the Sox tomorrow.

Sheffies Chef
09-28-2008, 11:00 PM
okey dokey

snidgen
09-29-2008, 01:36 PM
Why not just put Guillen at DH?
This should preserve his back and other injuries and hopefully prolong his career, because he's still a good bat that can hit from both sides.

Sheff has gotta be out, right?

My idea for 09 is:
1. Santiago SS (SH)
2. Polanco 2B (RH)
3. Granderson CF (LH)
4. Cabrera 1B (RH)
5. Mags RF (RH)
6. Guillen DH (SH)
7. Joyce/Thames LF (LH vs RHP, RH vs LHP)
8. Dusty Ryan C (RH)
9. Inge 3B (RH)

I don't think that is a horrible line-up plus our team speed and Def is much improved. This is also using our current roster, so this leaves us open for going after pitching only.

Hermie13
09-29-2008, 02:20 PM
Why not just put Guillen at DH?
This should preserve his back and other injuries and hopefully prolong his career, because he's still a good bat that can hit from both sides.

Sheff has gotta be out, right?

Where's Sheff going though? Can't really trade him with that salary. No NL team will want him either cause he's only a DH. You're pretty much stuck with him at DH unless you want to bench him....

I think you guys should seriously consider dealing Guillen. Not like you don't have another option at 3B with Inge. You could get something nice for Guillen. Unless you trade Mags and don't get an OF bat in return. Then move Guillen to LF and Joyce to RF...

stanpapi
09-29-2008, 04:32 PM
You're going to have to deal someone, otherwise you're going to have a very, very weak outfield in a huge park. Guillen in left and Ordonez in right? Granderson had better cover a whole of ground. This is the whole problem with the Cabrera trade -- massive displacement. Cabrera can't play 3rd, so that makes Guillen our leftfielder. Inge might be a "pac man" at 3rd, but you can't name a .211 (or whatever) hitter as your starter without at least making him earn the job at camp. And once again, you've got no place for Guillen. Please don't put him in LF, not for long. Like, maybe Sheff tears up camp (unlikely) and you get someone to place a flyer on him, but this is the whole problem with the Cabrera trade. Yes, he's a great, great hitter, but they haven't even broke camp yet and we've got two guys out of position and a third who can't fill the hole offensively. Crazy part is Inge is going to play where Cabrera was supposed to fill a hole. Cabrera didn't fill that hole, and now, to make a place for him, you're trying to hide three guys and you haven't broken camp yet.

Bondomania
09-29-2008, 07:53 PM
it isn't defense that is killing this team.. it is pitching.. look at the white sox, they are near the bottom of the league in most defensive categories but they have solid pitching, and a good offensive club... inge is NOT an everyday major leaguer, especially for what we pay him... the minors are filled with guys like Inge, all glove no bat and we could pay them the league minimum.. to be quite honest, i think Inge symbolizes everything that is wrong with this club.. over paid, under achiever, can't handle being a role player, strikes out to much, doesn't move runners over, and doesn't hit with runners in scoring position... I think Larish should be the starting 3B if he can make strides there in the offseason, and then Inge can come in in the 8th or 9th for defense...

as far as Guillen in Left.. this is flat out the stupidest idea i have ever heard in my life.. There is a reason why Guillen never made it as an outfielder in Houston.. he has horrible knees and a bad back, not to mention he throws to side arm to get anything on his throws.. if you think Marcus is a defensive liability in spacious Copa then you have a whole new level of horrid defense coming in 2009.. Joyce should be the everyday LF and allow him to grow and get better, he is slumping but he is solid defensively and has good pop in his bat..

Stan, this is the problem with all the moves we have made in the past 2 years, we are blocking to many of our talented prospects coming up and have to settle with guys with huge contracts that are under-perfoming

babygranderson
09-29-2008, 09:11 PM
it isn't defense that is killing this team.. it is pitching.. look at the white sox, they are near the bottom of the league in most defensive categories but they have solid pitching, and a good offensive club... inge is NOT an everyday major leaguer, especially for what we pay him... the minors are filled with guys like Inge, all glove no bat and we could pay them the league minimum.. to be quite honest, i think Inge symbolizes everything that is wrong with this club.. over paid, under achiever, can't handle being a role player, strikes out to much, doesn't move runners over, and doesn't hit with runners in scoring position... I think Larish should be the starting 3B if he can make strides there in the offseason, and then Inge can come in in the 8th or 9th for defense...

as far as Guillen in Left.. this is flat out the stupidest idea i have ever heard in my life.. There is a reason why Guillen never made it as an outfielder in Houston.. he has horrible knees and a bad back, not to mention he throws to side arm to get anything on his throws.. if you think Marcus is a defensive liability in spacious Copa then you have a whole new level of horrid defense coming in 2009.. Joyce should be the everyday LF and allow him to grow and get better, he is slumping but he is solid defensively and has good pop in his bat..

Stan, this is the problem with all the moves we have made in the past 2 years, we are blocking to many of our talented prospects coming up and have to settle with guys with huge contracts that are under-perfoming

This was the best post EVER. I don't think Larish is a decent ballplayer, though. Other than that minor discrepancy, you sir, are a true GENIUS. Bondo for GM!

mark1125
09-29-2008, 10:32 PM
Agreed on Guillen. Guillen + LF = disaster. I have no issue with Guillen other than his salary and injuries. If we could deal him, I would be all for it.

I do think defense would help shore up the iffy pitching. We need to improve in LF or RF and SS.

I don't think I could stomach seeing another season on .210 hitting out of Inge. If he could hit .250 with his defense, I say play him everday.

I guess I need a little time to digest all that is wrong with this team.

Lionsforlife
09-30-2008, 08:40 AM
Technically, Inge is a .250-.260 hitter when playing at third. His offense has always dropped off when being behind the plate. I can take .260 with 20 hrs at third with his defense.

And Defense IS a HUGE problem. Pitching hurt us, yes, in fact maybe more than defense, but you cannot call defense a non-issue. We had flat out too many stupid errors. I am not sold on Guillen in left and would definitely support a trade of him. I guess I think we should trade either Guillen or Thames, whoever we can get the most for. Keep the other for a platoon with Joyce in left.

Hermie13
09-30-2008, 09:28 AM
LF is a position you can afford to have a defensive liabilty. The worst defensive OFers in baseball all pretty much play LF (Manny, Bay, Soriano, Burrell, Lee, etc). Never said moving Guillen to LF was your best option, trading him is probably the best....but he does make a lot for a guy approaching his mid-30s and has injury concerns....so trading him will prove tough...

Bondomania
09-30-2008, 10:15 AM
Technically, Inge is a .250-.260 hitter when playing at third. His offense has always dropped off when being behind the plate. I can take .260 with 20 hrs at third with his defense.

since 2004, his peak batting avg of .287, his batting average and other important numbers have been on the decline and in 2007 he only hit .236... fine you want to make the argument that playing 3B makes him better offensively... the last 2 weeks he has been playing 3B, his average only went down in that time... The league has figured out Brandon, and he doesn't have the pitch recognition ability to see 500 to 600 AB's, look at how many times he strikes out on a check swing or just watches a fastball on the inner third of the plate...


LF is a position you can afford to have a defensive liabilty. The worst defensive OFers in baseball all pretty much play LF (Manny, Bay, Soriano, Burrell, Lee, etc).

The one thing about ALL of those players is that they play in TINY parks compared to COPA, think about it, Manny played in Boston, he had a tiny LF to cover, same thing with Bay now.. Lee plays in Huston, super short porch in LF, therefore less ground to cover.. Burrell plays in Philly, again, tiny park, and Soriano plays in Wrigley, and Wrigley is a smaller park as well.. The balls hit to the gap will kill Guillen all day long.. not to mention most of those guys have solid throwing arms so at least guys won't tag up on them.. Have you seen how Guillen throws? extremely sidearm, and the one game Guillen did try in LF this year, all of his throws were bouncing into the infield..

Thanks Babygranderson for the complement.. I like Larish more than i like Inge, and i think that production wise, i think that Larish could hit 20-25 hr's and 60-80 rbi's.. not to mention he is a lefty that we desperatly need in our lineup.. and he hits with runners in scoring position

Bondomania
09-30-2008, 10:21 AM
I also am not saying defense is a non-issue, because it is... however, look at the White Sox.. they have one of the worst defenses in the league too, but they have stellar pitching and a good offense... you can win with a poor defense as long as you have the pitching to make up for it.. I am just saying that Inge isn't going to change the outlook of this club, and his bat hurts this team more than his defense makes up for it.. he is a rally killer, strikes out to much and doesn't do the small things that you need your 8 or 9 hitter to do.. mark my words.. brandon inge WILL NOT hit .260.. he is a defensive replacement at best right now in his career

Hermie13
09-30-2008, 10:43 AM
Yeah but Bay was playing at PNC for most of his career which has a nice sized LF (386 to left-center). His arm isn't that great either.

Bonds also played in LF with his bum knees. Again, not saying Guillen in LF is the best move for you guys, and I'd only do it if Maggs is traded....and even then with some hesitation....

Lionsforlife
09-30-2008, 10:49 AM
I like Larish more than i like Inge, and i think that production wise, i think that Larish could hit 20-25 hr's and 60-80 rbi's.. not to mention he is a lefty that we desperatly need in our lineup.. and he hits with runners in scoring position


I too like Larish, but think he would be a defensive liability if given the opportunity to an everyday third baseman (he just switched to the position this year.) I actually would like to see him stick with the team next year and pick up some time at third, first, and DH. I don't want to see Brandon playing every game at third, but I think I would rather have his defense there then Larish's on a regular basis. I would like to see a 70-30 split between the two there maybe. Because let's face it, we have other areas to improve (Short, Catcher, Bullpen, possible front end starter) to add a hole at third base. I think Inge will be serviceable enough.

Bondomania
09-30-2008, 02:04 PM
i could possible live with that and be content with that.. or even have Larish start and Inge takes over in the 7th or 8th inning

T $$$
09-30-2008, 02:31 PM
I like Larish more than i like Inge, and i think that production wise, i think that Larish could hit 20-25 hr's and 60-80 rbi's.. not to mention he is a lefty that we desperatly need in our lineup.. and he hits with runners in scoring position

Last I checked both Inge and Larish have almost identical batting avgs. and slugging avgs. Not to mention Inge strikes out 27% of his at bats while Larish is going to K 32% of his times at the plate. I understand the hesitation with putting Inge in the lineup based on his BA but we were fifth in runs scored as a team in the AL and second to last in team defense. I would say that Inge is the best defensive third baseman that the Tigers have had in at least two decades and he also shores up some of your pitching woes (more put-outs at third keeps runners of the basepaths and lessens the need to go to the bullpen as quickly).

I agree that either Guillen or Ordonez must be traded because COPA is much too large for Granderson to handle it by himself. Ordonez has full no trade clause after next season, will turn 35 by midseason, is guaranteed $51 over the next three seasons, and most importantly is our most marketable trade chip. I would package him with a bad pitching contract (Robertson or Willis, take your pick) and take what we can get.

T $$$
09-30-2008, 02:45 PM
This is the whole problem with the Cabrera trade -- massive displacement. Cabrera can't play 3rd, so that makes Guillen our leftfielder. Inge might be a "pac man" at 3rd, but you can't name a .211 (or whatever) hitter as your starter without at least making him earn the job at camp. And once again, you've got no place for Guillen. Please don't put him in LF, not for long. Like, maybe Sheff tears up camp (unlikely) and you get someone to place a flyer on him, but this is the whole problem with the Cabrera trade. Yes, he's a great, great hitter, but they haven't even broke camp yet and we've got two guys out of position and a third who can't fill the hole offensively. Crazy part is Inge is going to play where Cabrera was supposed to fill a hole. Cabrera didn't fill that hole, and now, to make a place for him, you're trying to hide three guys and you haven't broken camp yet.

Stanpapi,
Great thread. I agree with a lot of what you said, however, I think that the Guillen extension of 2yrs ago is the real issue and not the Cabrera trade. Guillen was old and brokendown from the first day we get him (injury plagued 2005 season) and prior to the 2007 season we decide that we are going to give a 32 year old platoon player a 4yr $48 contract extension? Unbelievable. This makes us look worse when we sign Renteria ("because he is better than Guillen") to take over. We let Sean Casey go to make room for Guillen to play first. This is three poor defense moves in a row. Then to add insult to injury we displace Inge's glove with a worse Cabrera bringing the total to four poor defensive moves. Without Rogers on the mound we have the worst infield in all of baseball...

babygranderson
09-30-2008, 05:42 PM
Inge sucks. He is a guy that is AAA fodder at best making 6 mil per season and doesn't deserve it. His "poor me" crybaby crap set the tone for this whole season as far as I am concerned. As soon as he was quoted in the papers for the 3rd or 4th time with this "I won't complain about losing my spot, but I am not happy about it, I want to be traded" crap I was livid....for 2 reasons. One, he was being a DIVA and wouldn't accept that you can't hit .236 with 14 HR's and 70 RBI as a EVERYDAY 3b these days, even if your defense is golden. Secondly, Leyland, who I thought was a no-nonsense bad-***, coddled him and let it go on and on. What message did that send to the Sheff's, Magglio's, Guillen's, etc - Vets who are or have been legitimate stars in this league???? "Me first is tolerated. Individual agendas are tolerated. Even if I don't perform, Jimmy will try to keep me in the lineup like Brandon because I am a vet."

I have never ever seen a less-clutch player in my entire life. Inge should have his own wing in the Rally-killer hall of fame. I was praying they would trade him for a LH reliever who doesn't suck in the off season. Heck, I'd trade him for a can of Lysol to help remove the stench of his crappy play and attitude at this point.

Bondomania
09-30-2008, 06:05 PM
T$$$ - Inge finished the season batting .205.. Larish finished batting .260.. so no there averages were no where close... and Larish finished the season really strong, he started with a really big swing, but McClendon got him to tone it down and he was making much better contact, i think at one point he was on an 8 or 9 game hitting streak.. Brandon is an over-paid crybaby.. That runs scored is misleading because our offense was extremely inconsistant, we lead the league in games where we scored over 10 runs.. but i think we were shut out the most times in the league

One Nut Kruk
10-01-2008, 01:21 AM
Dumb, dumb move to name Inge your starter at 3rd for next season at this particular time. Makes no god damn sense at all. There goes his trade value as the only value he had was at catcher. NOBODY in the entire league would take this piece of crap as their everyday third basemen and here we go, naming him our starter for next year before the f'n playoffs have begun. There is no way in hell he will be our everyday third sacker unless we suck the big one again.

Nice stats Inge - .205 avg, .303 obp, 71 hits, .672 ops and 94 K's Yeah, there's starting 3rd base material. Not too mention that yeah, sure, he makes some highlight reel plays, no doubt about it....but he is also well versed in making bone headed errors at crucial times. See: blowing AL Central Title vs Kansas City in final game of 2006.


And where is the one dude getting the Inge/Larish K stats from? Are you basing this off of Larish's 100 major league at bats, whereas Inge has sucked over 3000 at bats? There's a sample size for ya. Give me a break. Inge has done nothing in his career to garner a starting job and time after time, he is handed one for no apparent reason. And with this brilliant move, Guillen moves to left and takes playing time away from Thames (as usual, not like he produced in limited at bats or anything) and Joyce (solid rookie campaign). It's an absolute f'n joke. Boy, may as well say fuch the search for a closer outside the organization and give it to Mr. 50% Rodney.

Cavs_Fan24
10-02-2008, 08:48 PM
I say keep Sheff as a pinch-hitter for those clutch situations and you have someone up that cant hit as well as he can IMO

Nikolishin
10-03-2008, 01:51 AM
i think the tigers clubhouse totally forgot about guillen being an all star short stop just 1 year ago

mark1125
10-03-2008, 07:11 AM
I say keep Sheff as a pinch-hitter for those clutch situations and you have someone up that cant hit as well as he can IMO

Can you imagine Sheff in the clubhouse if you make him a pinch hitter? I would rather just bite the bullet and cut him.

Not sure what else needs to be said about Inge. He is overpaid and has the stones to complain about not starting while hitting in the very low .200's.

braves95
10-06-2008, 06:25 PM
Magglio will be a brave next year!!!!:)

mark1125
10-06-2008, 06:47 PM
A) Any thoughts on who they would trade

B) Do you think the Braves would take on the salary?

Bondomania
10-06-2008, 09:13 PM
yeah.. you better be willing to shell out some good young prospects.. because you don't have much depth in the starting lineup and i don't know the state of your farm system.. but we would probably need a few prospects.. We would probably require Jordan Schafer to start with and probably two more prospects.. pitching most likely

Nizzle20
10-07-2008, 01:21 PM
there are so many great ideas that I read from you guys about trading such-n-such player. Getting so-n-so in free agency or in a trade. Or bringing player X up from the minors. Which would be absolutely wonderful.... if it were possible. Guillen, Inge, Sheffield, Willis, Roberston and more then likely Ordonez are untradable do to their contracts. And since they have these outrageous contracts, they are not going to sit or get sent down to the minors to be replaced by a league minimum contract. As much as we would like to see it happen, it just isnt going to. We are going to have do deal with defense liabilties like Maggs and Guillen on the outfield. Pitchers who have "the thing" like Willis and Robertson. And people with holes in their swing like Inge. So knowing that, what Leyland and Donbrowski have proposed for next season is our best with what we have. Those are the cards we were dealt. And you know what? I can live with it. Lets say this team all has an average year at the plate, in the field and on the mound. Just average mind you. The Tigers would be an 88-90 win team. It so happens that '08 seen a TON of injuries and most players being below what they individually consider average. Just give me an average year from these guys and it will be a darn good year.

Bondomania
10-07-2008, 01:56 PM
ah yes.. it is nice to dream of average seasons and such, and i hope for it too.. however, that being said.. a lot of these players are on the downside of their careers so most likely their stats will stay consistant with what they were this year.. i think that this team has to find a way to move one or two of those players mentioned, even if they have to eat half of the salary.. Also i think that with the way Gary finished the season, it could spark an interest from a team that is one or two bats away from being a legit contender.. his Avg. wasn't great, however, he still showed flashes of power, and still drove in 50+ rbi's and that was while he wasn't 100% healthy.. so if we pick up 5 or 6 mill. and team would only have to pay him 8 mill.... that isn't to bad, considering the upside

stanpapi
10-07-2008, 06:56 PM
i think the tigers clubhouse totally forgot about guillen being an all star short stop just 1 year ago

He got in because of his bat. No one said he couldn't hit. He just can't play SS. He'd be a fine 1b, maybe even DH, that's it.

stanpapi
10-07-2008, 06:58 PM
there are so many great ideas that I read from you guys about trading such-n-such player. Getting so-n-so in free agency or in a trade. Or bringing player X up from the minors. Which would be absolutely wonderful.... if it were possible. Guillen, Inge, Sheffield, Willis, Roberston and more then likely Ordonez are untradable do to their contracts. And since they have these outrageous contracts, they are not going to sit or get sent down to the minors to be replaced by a league minimum contract. As much as we would like to see it happen, it just isnt going to. We are going to have do deal with defense liabilties like Maggs and Guillen on the outfield. Pitchers who have "the thing" like Willis and Robertson. And people with holes in their swing like Inge. So knowing that, what Leyland and Donbrowski have proposed for next season is our best with what we have. Those are the cards we were dealt. And you know what? I can live with it. Lets say this team all has an average year at the plate, in the field and on the mound. Just average mind you. The Tigers would be an 88-90 win team. It so happens that '08 seen a TON of injuries and most players being below what they individually consider average. Just give me an average year from these guys and it will be a darn good year.

...with Ordonez in right and Guillen in left. You're going to get taken advantage of. As for making the best with what we've got, well, DD built this team.

Nizzle20
10-07-2008, 07:55 PM
...with Ordonez in right and Guillen in left. You're going to get taken advantage of. As for making the best with what we've got, well, DD built this team.

I concure. With Guillen and Ordonez as corner outfielders, will will be quite subpar. Thats even taking into concideration that Granderson is a top 2 defensive centerfielder. But again, with the contracts, what are you to do? You have to play Maggs, Cabrera, Sheff and Guillen because of their contracts. I guess you can only answer my next question if you agree with that last statement. So here it is: Where do you play those 4 with respects to what we have as position players?

I think we all know that the dead weight is Sheff. If he was removed ffom the equation, it would make many things much easier. But alas, he is still a Tiger and is still making a boat load of cash. So you will see him in the line up frequently.

mark1125
10-07-2008, 08:38 PM
I concure. With Guillen and Ordonez as corner outfielders, will will be quite subpar. Thats even taking into concideration that Granderson is a top 2 defensive centerfielder. But again, with the contracts, what are you to do? You have to play Maggs, Cabrera, Sheff and Guillen because of their contracts. I guess you can only answer my next question if you agree with that last statement. So here it is: Where do you play those 4 with respects to what we have as position players?

I think we all know that the dead weight is Sheff. If he was removed ffom the equation, it would make many things much easier. But alas, he is still a Tiger and is still making a boat load of cash. So you will see him in the line up frequently.

I think they need to bite the bullet on Sheff if they can't find a taker. Cut him. Maggs in RF and Cabrera at 1B are done deals. Guillen at DH would make sens if Sheff is gone. I cxould live with Joyce/Thames in LF. My big beef is with Inge at 3B. Not a fan of him getting 500+ AB's. I am curious to see what they do at SS. I would like to see Santiago get more time. Good defense, bunting, and makes decent contact.

Bondomania
10-07-2008, 09:36 PM
yea, i agree.. Inge should not see 500 ab's this year.. i know Larish didn't mash at the major league level.. but i still like the idea of him starting the games and then Inge comes in in the the 7th or 8th as a defensive replacement.. we need his lefty bat in the lineup.. hell we need any lefty bat in the lineup that can hit consistantly.. and i just like the idea of getting some fresh people into the lineup.. i am tired of this lineup.. i realize some people struggled this past year.. but how do you expect the record to change if we are ultimatly fielding the same lineup as this past year.. if anything, things will become stagnant.. i really think we need to get some young guys into the lineup.. some kids that are eager to proove themselves and are going to bust their butts in every aspect of the game..

stanpapi
10-07-2008, 10:29 PM
You've got to bite the bullet on one of these old guys. You can't have Ordonez and Guillen out there all year. It won't work. Shame of it is Sheff was an excellent outfielder. And he's also a pretty good baserunner, but it's now a home-run derby for him. And I doubt he will change once he hits 500. The point is you've got too many of these guys. Guys who can't field but can still allegedly hit. I was watching the Angels try to mount a comeback. And they drew walks, took advantage of a pass ball, then scored two on and hit and run to tie. Forget that they lost, that's how you play. DD thought he was going to turn Comerica into a long-drive contest and still win. And now he's over-mortgaged. So, you're going to put the wrong guys in the wrong places for the sake of it? I'm not going to see that. You're a flatout sucker to pay to see that.