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JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 01:04 PM
Dallas Mavericks 2006 sort of similar to the 2008 LA Lakers in a sense

Both teams had superstars and was led by them. Dirk and Kobe. Both teams had great 2nd options in Howard and Gasol.

Both teams even had great 3rd options in Terry and Odom. Both teams had good role players in Fisher, Farmar, Sasha, Stackhouse, Harris and Dampier

The one glaring weakness for both teams had to do with SG or SF. For the Mavs they had Griffin starting at SG and for the Lakers they had Vladamir starting at SF.


Both teams went to the finals and won 2 games as well.


Those were two teams that seemed to be similar as a whole.


What do you think?

Fayzon10
09-24-2008, 01:25 PM
This year I think Odom will be playing the SF position for LA, I think the one major difference was that Dallas was slightly better defensively but LA will be a little better defensively this year with Bynum back the question is will it be enough for them to win it all. I think Odom is gonna have a tough time guarding the quicker 3's but I'm sure Phil will come up with something...

dannyking18
09-24-2008, 01:42 PM
i have to say the 08 lakers are better than the 06 mavs,due to lakers depth,its mostly our offensive role that we are going to be in this season.sure mavs had dirk as there 1st option and josh ans there 2nd option and even terry asthere 3rd option.But now the lakers are full off options,bryant 1st option no doubt,pau gasol,odom,bynum and even shasha vujacic who we all think will we better than last year and might have his break-out season.plus our 08 lakers bench has more depth than the 06 mavs,we have lengh scorers and defenders.were one of the most depest team all-around teams in the nba right now.

hotpotato1092
09-24-2008, 01:48 PM
completely different. First, the superstars are completely different. Dirk is a big man and Kobe's a guard. All dirk can do is score, he doesn't believe in defense. Kobe is one of the game's best defenders. Kobe's also a better scorer and passer than dirk. Second, Gasol and Odom are much better than Howard and Terry. It's not even close. Last, the Lakers played in a much harder western conference and against a much harder team in the finals. Can you honestly say this team would make it out of the first round in last years west (they're not beating the lakers, they probably wouldn't beat the Jazz or Hornets, and The spurs, Rockets, Suns, Nuggets and even the 2008 mavs could have beaten them). If the 2008 celtics played the 2006 heat in a 7 game series, the heat would be lucky to win one. The 2006 mavs were the product of a weaker league, just like the 2007 spurs. The lakers are easily the better team

JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 02:12 PM
completely different. First, the superstars are completely different. Dirk is a big man and Kobe's a guard. All dirk can do is score, he doesn't believe in defense. Kobe is one of the game's best defenders. Kobe's also a better scorer and passer than dirk. Second, Gasol and Odom are much better than Howard and Terry. It's not even close. Last, the Lakers played in a much harder western conference and against a much harder team in the finals. Can you honestly say this team would make it out of the first round in last years west (they're not beating the lakers, they probably wouldn't beat the Jazz or Hornets, and The spurs, Rockets, Suns, Nuggets and even the 2008 mavs could have beaten them). If the 2008 celtics played the 2006 heat in a 7 game series, the heat would be lucky to win one. The 2006 mavs were the product of a weaker league, just like the 2007 spurs. The lakers are easily the better team

The Mavs beat a Spurs team that won 63 games the most in franchise history. They also defeated the team that won it all the year before in the Spurs. Duncan was younger and so were Manu and Parker.

BoltLakerPadre
09-24-2008, 02:22 PM
Uhhh, not really a good comparision from the start, I mean comparing Dirk and Kobe, the thread should have stopped right there.

JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 03:02 PM
Uhhh, not really a good comparision from the start, I mean comparing Dirk and Kobe, the thread should have stopped right there.

Yeah because both players have led teams to the finals to only lose and have 1 MVP a piece.

knicks1214
09-24-2008, 03:05 PM
I still don't think that this comparison should have been made. The Lakers were going up against a much harder team and they also had a better team than the Mavs.

fresh prince
09-24-2008, 03:41 PM
Yeah because both players have led teams to the finals to only lose and have 1 MVP a piece.

So based on that they are the same? I GUESS WE CAN OVERLOOK ALL OF THE OTHER GLARING DIFFERENCES.. 3 championships ...ones very clutch the other not so much... etc. and just hone in on those 2 similarities huh?

By your logic I guess Lebron James and Smush Parker are similar as well then since They're both black and wear headbands?

I think the Lakers 08 and the Mavs 06 are completely different because the Mavs were arguably a better team than The Miami Heat TEAM THEY LOST to. in those finals. They just inexplicably allowed one man (D wade) to beat them BY PLAYING HIM STRAIGHT UP.

The 08 Lakers lost to the better more experienced more physical Celtics team.

#1Mavericksfan
09-24-2008, 03:50 PM
So based on that they are the same? I GUESS WE CAN OVERLOOK ALL OF THE OTHER GLARING DIFFERENCES.. 3 championships ...ones very clutch the other not so much... etc. and just hone in on those 2 similarities huh?

By your logic I guess Lebron James and Smush Parker are similar as well then since They're both black and wear headbands?

I think the Lakers 08 and the Mavs 06 are completely different because the Mavs were arguably a better team than The Miami Heat TEAM THEY LOST to. in those finals. They just inexplicably allowed one man (D wade) to beat them BY PLAYING HIM STRAIGHT UP.

The 08 Lakers lost to the better more experienced more physical Celtics team.


Man you don't even sit up here and say anything about what Dwyane Wade did to the Mavericks because Paul Pierce did the same thing to the Lakers, If I recall everybody on ESPN and on this forum were picking to Lakers to beat the Celtics in 6 games beacuse the Lakers were supposed to be the "better" team and look how that turned out.

knicks1214
09-24-2008, 03:57 PM
People expected the Lakers to win only if Bynum was not injured. Other than that, every analyst predicted that the Celtics would win-or at least the vast majority of them. Plus, the people who were saying that the Lakers were going to win the Finals were probably the Lakers fans (there are a lot here) and everyone else who hates the Lakers. I knew that the Celtics would win but I wanted the Lakers to. You really can't argue that the Celtics are not better than the 2006 Heat...there is no way that that's even remotely possible.

JOSETHEALLSTAR
09-24-2008, 04:14 PM
not really a good comparision

23LBJCleBrowns
09-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Dirk is not a superstar, he is an All-star (He is OVERRATED). I think that the Lakers were better only because the next year the Mavericks lost in the first round of the playoffs agains the 8th seed.

JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 04:27 PM
So based on that they are the same? I GUESS WE CAN OVERLOOK ALL OF THE OTHER GLARING DIFFERENCES.. 3 championships ...ones very clutch the other not so much... etc. and just hone in on those 2 similarities huh?

By your logic I guess Lebron James and Smush Parker are similar as well then since They're both black and wear headbands?

I think the Lakers 08 and the Mavs 06 are completely different because the Mavs were arguably a better team than The Miami Heat TEAM THEY LOST to. in those finals. They just inexplicably allowed one man (D wade) to beat them BY PLAYING HIM STRAIGHT UP.

The 08 Lakers lost to the better more experienced more physical Celtics team.

What are you talking about? I am comparing 2 superstars that have led teams to the finals. Don't use irrational comparisons here. The other guy said it was a lost comparison because Dirk was being compared to Kobe, which really wasn't the case. He was being compared in that both players took teams to the finals. Exactly how is that a bad comparison?

Exactly how is one very clutch and the other not? From what I remember every analyst and vegas picked the Lakers to beat Boston while in the Mavs vs Heat series it was pretty much analyst from both sides picking both teams.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/series?series=lalbos

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/series?series=miadal

Dirk in the finals that year
22.8 ppg / 10.80 rpg / 2.5 apg / .67 spg / .67 bpg / 2.17 TPG / 39% fg / 25% 3pt / 89.1% ft


Kobe in the finals in 2008
25.7 ppg / 4.7 rpg / 5.0 apg / 2.67 spg / .17 bpg / 3.83 TPG / 40.5% fg / 32.1% 3pt / 79.6% ft

Now how exactly was one player better than the other when both players were leaders on their team and their teams lost and they played not according to the standards that they usually play at?

Now I am not going to say that Kobe ain't clutch at all or anything, but to say Dirk is not clutch and make it as if Kobe is clutch when it matters is being a hypocrite.

JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 04:28 PM
Dirk is not a superstar, he is an All-star (He is OVERRATED). I think that the Lakers were better only because the next year the Mavericks lost in the first round of the playoffs agains the 8th seed.

If Dirk is overrated than any player that loses in the finals should be considered overrated as well if they play worse than they usually do.

_Sn1P3r_
09-24-2008, 04:32 PM
It's hard to compare the two stars if they both play different positions. They both played well in the Finals and yes, both teams resulted in losses.

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 04:49 PM
not at all.... dirk is no kobe. dirk started up 2 not down 2. and besides late game 3...dirk had decent officiating. i see few similarities besides they were both the favorites to win. but even still, neither of them were that greatof favorites anyway

knicks1214
09-24-2008, 05:00 PM
The Lakers were not favorites to win...only by Lakers fans and if they had Bynum. However, they lost Bynum and then the Celtics became the team to beat.

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 05:18 PM
The Lakers were not favorites to win...only by Lakers fans and if they had Bynum. However, they lost Bynum and then the Celtics became the team to beat.

wrong...most espn analysts still picked LA in 6 until after game 1's loss. it was known bynum wasnt gonna be a factor and ppl thought kobe gasol and odam could do it. they had the best passing team in the league and one of the most unguardable players. they figured the best passing team could expose faults in the best defending team...didnt work out for a few reasons however

fresh prince
09-24-2008, 05:46 PM
Man you don't even sit up here and say anything about what Dwyane Wade did to the Mavericks because Paul Pierce did the same thing to the Lakers, If I recall everybody on ESPN and on this forum were picking to Lakers to beat the Celtics in 6 games beacuse the Lakers were supposed to be the "better" team and look how that turned out.

Hahaha..

How did Paul Pierce do the same thing to the Lakers? He was absolutely brutal in 2 games and...

Pierce Averaged: 21.8 points a 6.3 assists and 4.5 rebounds per game on 43%fg

Wade Averaged: 34.7 points, 3.8 assists and 7.8 rebounds on 46% from the floor

Those 2 performances aren't even close!!

And as we've seen time and time again everybody on ESPN and most people on this forum were wrong.

Myself and most other objective Laker fans felt we would have lost to either the Celts or the Pistons last year. Due to the softness of our squad.

Beno7500
09-24-2008, 05:53 PM
Nothing special at all to me.

fresh prince
09-24-2008, 06:00 PM
What are you talking about? I am comparing 2 superstars that have led teams to the finals. Don't use irrational comparisons here. The other guy said it was a lost comparison because Dirk was being compared to Kobe, which really wasn't the case. He was being compared in that both players took teams to the finals. Exactly how is that a bad comparison?

Exactly how is one very clutch and the other not? From what I remember every analyst and vegas picked the Lakers to beat Boston while in the Mavs vs Heat series it was pretty much analyst from both sides picking both teams.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/series?series=lalbos

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/series?series=miadal

Dirk in the finals that year
22.8 ppg / 10.80 rpg / 2.5 apg / .67 spg / .67 bpg / 2.17 TPG / 39% fg / 25% 3pt / 89.1% ft


Kobe in the finals in 2008
25.7 ppg / 4.7 rpg / 5.0 apg / 2.67 spg / .17 bpg / 3.83 TPG / 40.5% fg / 32.1% 3pt / 79.6% ft

Now how exactly was one player better than the other when both players were leaders on their team and their teams lost and they played not according to the standards that they usually play at?

Now I am not going to say that Kobe ain't clutch at all or anything, but to say Dirk is not clutch and make it as if Kobe is clutch when it matters is being a hypocrite.

Are you kidding me? I mean seriously?

Kobe Bryant has made countless plays in route to 3 championship rings in crunch time!

Both in the Finals and (as seemingly only Laker fans realize) even more so during our toughest series navigating through the Western Conference Playoffs.

Kobe bailed out the Squad countless times when Shaq was either in foul trouble, ineffective or out of the game down the stretch due to hack a Shaq.

Dirk has had a handful of nice games in route to 1 finals appearance.

Kobe Bryants has had a plethora of big games and historic moments in route to 3 championships and 5 finals appearances! Not to mention him saving our a**es in clutch time in route to a gold medal this summer

Granted in Kobe's last 2 final appearances he has not played up top the standards he has set for himself. But to try and say that Kobe isnt clutch when it matters is laughable. Your acting like most of the haters who attempt to erase the past....and youre better than that.

JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 06:05 PM
Are you kidding me? I mean seriously?

Kobe Bryant has made countless plays in route to 3 championship rings in crunch time!

Both in the Finals and (as seemingly only Laker fans realize) even more so during our toughest series navigating through the Western Conference Playoffs.

Kobe bailed out the Squad countless times when Shaq was either in foul trouble, ineffective or out of the game down the stretch due to hack a Shaq.

Dirk has had a handful of nice games in route to 1 finals appearance.

Kobe Bryants has had a plethora of big games and historic moments in route to 3 championships and 5 finals appearances! Not to mention him saving our a**es in clutch time in route to a gold medal this summer

Granted in Kobe's last 2 final appearances he has not played up top the standards he has set for himself. But to try and say that Kobe isnt clutch when it matters is laughable. Your acting like most of the haters who attempt to erase the past....and youre better than that.

No, what you said was that Kobe was clutch and Dirk was not, and then you were using the 3 rings argument which doesn't apply in this case because Dirk never played with a player that was the best player in the NBA on any of his teams.
Dirk has always had to bear the burden of the team as the focal point of the team, Kobe didn't.

knicks1214
09-24-2008, 06:08 PM
The comparison still does not apply here...the Lakers were not only a much better team than the Mavs from when they went to the finals, but they were also playing a much better team in the Celtics.

JordansBulls
09-24-2008, 06:10 PM
The comparison still does not apply here...the Lakers were not only a much better team than the Mavs from when they went to the finals, but they were also playing a much better team in the Celtics.

We are not really comparing the Celtics and Heat perse, we are comparing the makeup of the Lakers and Mavericks and how they could be considered similar to one another.

Lakersfan2483
09-24-2008, 06:14 PM
Dallas Mavericks 2006 sort of similar to the 2008 LA Lakers in a sense

Both teams had superstars and was led by them. Dirk and Kobe. Both teams had great 2nd options in Howard and Gasol.

Both teams even had great 3rd options in Terry and Odom. Both teams had good role players in Fisher, Farmar, Sasha, Stackhouse, Harris and Dampier

The one glaring weakness for both teams had to do with SG or SF. For the Mavs they had Griffin starting at SG and for the Lakers they had Vladamir starting at SF.


Both teams went to the finals and won 2 games as well.


Those were two teams that seemed to be similar as a whole.


What do you think?

Once again, great thread. I think it's a fair assesment to compare the 2 teams.

Let's start from the top: Kobe vs. Dirk. Dirk in his own right is an excellent player. He can score at will, can rebound, shoot. I think his defense is just average. My issue with Dirk is that he does not score pts. down low. If you are a seven footer, you must be able to score down low especially with Dirk's talent.

Kobe is clutch, good playmaker, great defender when he has to be, he has an extra gear he can go to that most don't have. His competiveness is second to none and he is a far better passer and rebounder than he is given credit for. My only issue with Kobe is his shot selection at times, he has a tendency to settle for the jumpshot and as of late, the 3 point shot. He also forces the issue a little too much.

In terms of who I would take, Kobe is the obvious choice here.

Now, in terms of 2nd options, LA would definitely have the edge here with Pau Gasol. Gasol is a seven footer who can give you 19ppg and 9rpg. His only issue is his lack of physical play, but nonetheless, he's an excellent 2nd option player.

The edge in the 2nd options would have to go to Gasol, if you were to examine his overall impact. He brings more to the table than Josh Howard. Gasol is a legit seven footer with a solid post game and he is a consistent 19 and 9 a game. He also shoots about .50pct from the field.

In terms of role players, I would give a slight edge to that Mavs team in 2006 because of their experience and depth at the center position. The Mavs had the necessary big men down low in Dampier and Diop to defend the paint. They also had an explosive scorer off of the bench in Stackhouse. D. Harris was a nice defender at the point guard position and he brought a great change of pace off of the bench. In terms of talent as a 3rd option, J. Terry was playing phenomenal basketball that season. He was explosive in terms of scoring and making critical plays for that Mavs team.

Overall, I think both teams were good teams, in terms of who would win, I believe the Lakers with the combo of Kobe and Gasol would be too much for the Mavs. During the 2006 year, Kobe avg. 36 per contest against that same team, I think Kobe's overall game and impact would be too much for the Mavs. LA would win in 6 games. In no way am I trying to discredit that Mavs team, I just think the Lakers had enough weapons at the key positions to overcome the Mavs. It definitely would not be an easy series. LA would prevail in 6 games. Remember, La beat a good, tough defensive team in Utah and also beat the defending champs, the Spurs.

knicks1214
09-24-2008, 06:29 PM
They should be compared because they both lost after being the favorites to win? The "underdog" in the finals, if there really is one, has pulled off many upsets before. When the Pistons beat the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe is a good example. Both teams were solid teams, but the only sense in which they are similar, from my point of view, is that both teams were considered favorites and lost.

x_notorious
09-24-2008, 06:45 PM
Stupid comparison.

- Dirk is no where near the realm of Kobe Bryant. Plus, Phil Jackson is his coach.

- Mavericks were completely healthy when coming into the Finals. Lakers are missing an upcoming center with a bright future. I mean 14/10/2 in 28 minutes isn't shabby

- Kobe is a top player in the league, Dirk will be fortunate to make top 8 (Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Williams). Kobe is a SG, Dirk is a PF. Kobe plays defense, Dirk does not.

- Gasol + Odom > Terry + Howard.

#1Mavericksfan
09-24-2008, 07:59 PM
Stupid comparison.

- Dirk is no where near the realm of Kobe Bryant. Plus, Phil Jackson is his coach.

- Mavericks were completely healthy when coming into the Finals. Lakers are missing an upcoming center with a bright future. I mean 14/10/2 in 28 minutes isn't shabby

- Kobe is a top player in the league, Dirk will be fortunate to make top 8 (Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Williams). Kobe is a SG, Dirk is a PF. Kobe plays defense, Dirk does not.

- Gasol + Odom > Terry + Howard.


are you serious?

Bruno
09-24-2008, 08:07 PM
Im ok with the comparison. The difference is that the Mavs should have won. The Lakers were favored in the beginning for being better on paper, but as the series proved, the Celtics were the dominant team, start to finish. ALSO, the 2008 Celtics would have taken the 2006 Heat out in 5 or 6 games, I think the Lakers played the tougher team.

I think the 06' Mavs were better than the Heat, they blew it, where as I see the Celtics being better than the Lakers in 08'.

Props to the 08 Celtics, great TEAM BALL, period

Kohaku
09-24-2008, 08:39 PM
Dirk is not a superstar, he is an All-star (He is OVERRATED). I think that the Lakers were better only because the next year the Mavericks lost in the first round of the playoffs agains the 8th seed.

Dirk is NOT overrated.

cmellofan15
09-24-2008, 08:43 PM
The only super big difference is that the Heat were underdogs who won and the Celtics were supposed to win (at least IMO b/c the Lakers weren't good enough)

cmellofan15
09-24-2008, 08:45 PM
Dirk is not a superstar, he is an All-star (He is OVERRATED). I think that the Lakers were better only because the next year the Mavericks lost in the first round of the playoffs agains the 8th seed.

Ha! I'm guessing LeBron's underrated b/c he never got a MVP :rolleyes:

#1Mavericksfan
09-24-2008, 09:16 PM
To that person that said Dirk is "overrated" if Dirk were a free agent almost every team in the NBA with cap space would be trying to sign him and your calling him overrated, put Dirk on a team like the Heat and then they will become contenders in the East.

ARMIN12NBA
09-24-2008, 10:05 PM
Don't compare Dirk to Kobe...Please do not. It is an insult really.

Also, the Lakers didn't choke no 2-0 lead. I guarantee if the Lakers had a 2-0 lead going home for three games in the series they would win.

Fayzon10
09-24-2008, 10:54 PM
The Lakers were not favorites to win...only by Lakers fans and if they had Bynum. However, they lost Bynum and then the Celtics became the team to beat. The Lakers actually were favored by 90 percent of the analyst to win the finals, just check espn. they all picked the Lakers due to the ease they went through the west...Only a few of the critics picked the celtics

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:05 PM
Anyone who turned this into a Kobe vs Dirk comparison is missing the point. Dirk that year had as good a year as Kobe had this past season. Dirk was the best player in the world in 05-06'. Stop with you're overrated crap, and try to be non biased. And anyone pointing out Kobe on the all defense team drank the same kool aid that the media drank. Kobe making first team all defense is a complete insult to the entire team. I no longer respect the selections to the all defensive team. That being said, the Mavericks were the best team out of the 4 total. They completely caved, and their leader should hvae manned up, and their owner should have stayed away from the court. Refs aren't going to give you calls if you whine like a little girl the whole game at everything they do Cuban

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 11:12 PM
Anyone who turned this into a Kobe vs Dirk comparison is missing the point. Dirk that year had as good a year as Kobe had this past season. Dirk was the best player in the world in 05-06'. Stop with you're overrated crap, and try to be non biased. And anyone pointing out Kobe on the all defense team drank the same kool aid that the media drank. Kobe making first team all defense is a complete insult to the entire team. I no longer respect the selections to the all defensive team. That being said, the Mavericks were the best team out of the 4 total. They completely caved, and their leader should hvae manned up, and their owner should have stayed away from the court. Refs aren't going to give you calls if you whine like a little girl the whole game at everything they do Cuban

i agreesome...disagree a LOT.
agree- kobe probably isnt 1st team all defense, but i cant think of who deserved it more at this time. and we can go on all day about refs giving calls. the refs are the reason the celts won against the lakers. i believe that whole heartedly after looking at tape

disagree- Kobe is still a great defender and is def a top sg defender
dirk never was, will be, nor ever could dream of being the greatest in the world. simply put, he is not talented enough nor mentally tough enough to EVER be considered anywhere close to being the best at any time. and are you seriously telling me the mavs were the best team out of last years celts, lakers, and the heat of 2 years ago? they may have been better than the heat, but apparently not. dude, normally you have some decent responses but you gotta be high to seriously believe all this

ARMIN12NBA
09-24-2008, 11:16 PM
Anyone who turned this into a Kobe vs Dirk comparison is missing the point. Dirk that year had as good a year as Kobe had this past season. Dirk was the best player in the world in 05-06'. Stop with you're overrated crap, and try to be non biased. And anyone pointing out Kobe on the all defense team drank the same kool aid that the media drank. Kobe making first team all defense is a complete insult to the entire team. I no longer respect the selections to the all defensive team. That being said, the Mavericks were the best team out of the 4 total. They completely caved, and their leader should hvae manned up, and their owner should have stayed away from the court. Refs aren't going to give you calls if you whine like a little girl the whole game at everything they do Cuban

Even when Kobe was putting up 35+ PPG and leading scrubs to 45 wins...

What media? I believe the coaches vote for the defensive team...

#1Mavericksfan
09-24-2008, 11:17 PM
Don't compare Dirk to Kobe...Please do not. It is an insult really.

Also, the Lakers didn't choke no 2-0 lead. I guarantee if the Lakers had a 2-0 lead going home for three games in the series they would win.

Ok....whatever you say man

Spurred1
09-24-2008, 11:17 PM
i agreesome...disagree a LOT.
agree- kobe probably isnt 1st team all defense, but i cant think of who deserved it more at this time. and we can go on all day about refs giving calls. the refs are the reason the celts won against the lakers. i believe that whole heartedly after looking at tape

disagree- Kobe is still a great defender and is def a top sg defender
dirk never was, will be, nor ever could dream of being the greatest in the world. simply put, he is not talented enough nor mentally tough enough to EVER be considered anywhere close to being the best at any time. and are you seriously telling me the mavs were the best team out of last years celts, lakers, and the heat of 2 years ago? they may have been better than the heat, but apparently not. dude, normally you have some decent responses but you gotta be high to seriously believe all this
Why are you still blaming the refs for the Lakers losing? The Celtics focused on Kobe and the rest of the Lakers went soft and folded. Just like Dirk and the Mavericks did against the Heat.

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:23 PM
i agreesome...disagree a LOT.
agree- kobe probably isnt 1st team all defense, but i cant think of who deserved it more at this time. and we can go on all day about refs giving calls. the refs are the reason the celts won against the lakers. i believe that whole heartedly after looking at tape

disagree- Kobe is still a great defender and is def a top sg defender
dirk never was, will be, nor ever could dream of being the greatest in the world. simply put, he is not talented enough nor mentally tough enough to EVER be considered anywhere close to being the best at any time. and are you seriously telling me the mavs were the best team out of last years celts, lakers, and the heat of 2 years ago? they may have been better than the heat, but apparently not. dude, normally you have some decent responses but you gotta be high to seriously believe all this

Dirk was the best player in the league that year. Sorry. and Artest, Battier, Bell, to name 3 in 4 seconds, all deserved it more. Kobe is a better player career wise, no doubt. But Dirk was better that year. Kobe may have had unreal stats, but they were hollow. He obviously didn't do for his team what Dirk did. This past year, sure, he was WAY better. I still think LeBron was better, but I am not going to argue Kobe's MVP, he was terrific. And yes, as far as the entire year's team goes, the Mavs were the best of the 4. They had that finals in tha bag before complete collapse. Their window has been shut, too bad for them. The Lakers are staring out an open window right now, let's see if they can actually walk through it

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:24 PM
Even when Kobe was putting up 35+ PPG and leading scrubs to 45 wins...

What media? I believe the coaches vote for the defensive team...

whoever votes for it screwed up. Kobe is an above average defender, but 1st team all NBA? Laughable.

#1Mavericksfan
09-24-2008, 11:25 PM
Why are you still blaming the refs for the Lakers losing? The Celtics focused on Kobe and the rest of the Lakers went soft and folded. Just like Dirk and the Mavericks did against the Heat.

WOW just WOW!

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 11:25 PM
Why are you still blaming the refs for the Lakers losing? The Celtics focused on Kobe and the rest of the Lakers went soft and folded. Just like Dirk and the Mavericks did against the Heat.

I honestly feel that the young LA players knew what the refs were doing and no matter how they faught, they couldnt win. Game 1 had a 30 freethrow disparity, and no team is that reluctant to drive, and no defense is good enough to cause that. Game 4 and a buch of games had garnett setting screens where he'd push players to the ground and nobody except the announcers said anything. youtube it how KG set like 5 screens in a row pushing LA players and then the last one is finally called. It was so blatantly bull crap its unreal. no matter how good you are, the refs can decide the outcome and they did IMO. plays like the one where pierce yanked Kobe's arm while he was driving to the point where Kobe had to put up a left handed runner surrounded by 2 or 3 other people and he clearly would have gone right handed had pierce nt raked him...thats the BS officiating that I mean. its ilke wrestling...entertaining but unreal

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:28 PM
I honestly feel that the young LA players knew what the refs were doing and no matter how they faught, they couldnt win. Game 1 had a 30 freethrow disparity, and no team is that reluctant to drive, and no defense is good enough to cause that. Game 4 and a buch of games had garnett setting screens where he'd push players to the ground and nobody except the announcers said anything. youtube it how KG set like 5 screens in a row pushing LA players and then the last one is finally called. It was so blatantly bull crap its unreal. no matter how good you are, the refs can decide the outcome and they did IMO. plays like the one where pierce yanked Kobe's arm while he was driving to the point where Kobe had to put up a left handed runner surrounded by 2 or 3 other people and he clearly would have gone right handed had pierce nt raked him...thats the BS officiating that I mean. its ilke wrestling...entertaining but unreal

when you start blaming refs, you are making excuses. If KG pushes you over on a pick, you need to man up and hit the gym. The reason he isn't the best PF of all time is he refuses to get physical. Referees were not the problem. The problem for the Lakers is, Garnett, Pierce, and Allen wanted it a LOT more.

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 11:30 PM
Dirk was the best player in the league that year. Sorry. and Artest, Battier, Bell, to name 3 in 4 seconds, all deserved it more. Kobe is a better player career wise, no doubt. But Dirk was better that year. Kobe may have had unreal stats, but they were hollow. He obviously didn't do for his team what Dirk did. This past year, sure, he was WAY better. I still think LeBron was better, but I am not going to argue Kobe's MVP, he was terrific. And yes, as far as the entire year's team goes, the Mavs were the best of the 4. They had that finals in tha bag before complete collapse. Their window has been shut, too bad for them. The Lakers are staring out an open window right now, let's see if they can actually walk through it

artest and battier are forwards. and when they played, teams were weaker. the celts or LA wounld rampage them today. both have so much depth and the starters are waaaay better. they had a nice squad for their time, but they wouldnt cause near as much noise in this last season nor next seasons game. and you can think that he was the best, but he was just the best player on the best team at the time. nothing more. he was still a liability on defense, rebounding was solid, but there would be plenty of people even then you could have taken over him. Kobe was better then too to name just one, but no doubt i agree with dirk getting the MVP though

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:30 PM
Even when Kobe was putting up 35+ PPG and leading scrubs to 45 wins...

What media? I believe the coaches vote for the defensive team...

so, by you're rational, LeBron was the clear cut best player for getting his team to win 95 games in the last 2 years, despite literally playing with high schoolers on his team. His PER, and EFF rating have been the best in the NBA, so he is the best. Correct?

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:33 PM
artest and battier are forwards. and when they played, teams were weaker. the celts or LA wounld rampage them today. both have so much depth and the starters are waaaay better. they had a nice squad for their time, but they wouldnt cause near as much noise in this last season nor next seasons game. and you can think that he was the best, but he was just the best player on the best team at the time. nothing more. he was still a liability on defense, rebounding was solid, but there would be plenty of people even then you could have taken over him. Kobe was better then too to name just one, but no doubt i agree with dirk getting the MVP though

For their time? Are you 11? That was like 2 years ago. The Mavs were awesome. I am not a fan of theirs ,but they killed everyone back then. The MVP always goes to the best player on one of the top 2-3 teams, hence Kobe winning it over LeBron this year. Sorry, I am in a bad mood, and I refuse to take bashing on great teams over time, to tell me that the current Lakers team is great. They haven't done crap. Prove you are a championship team, or move aside. Like all the other teams that don't get over the hump

x_notorious
09-24-2008, 11:34 PM
whoever votes for it screwed up. Kobe is an above average defender, but 1st team all NBA? Laughable.

So him being a 1st team All-Defensive team 6 years in a row (7 total, not counting the second teams which is 2, making that 9 All-Defensive team appearances) is a fluke? :rolleyes:

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 11:34 PM
when you start blaming refs, you are making excuses. If KG pushes you over on a pick, you need to man up and hit the gym. The reason he isn't the best PF of all time is he refuses to get physical. Referees were not the problem. The problem for the Lakers is, Garnett, Pierce, and Allen wanted it a LOT more.

cuz u know how badly kobe and the rest of LA wanted it right? sorry, i just dont like when people say things like that. It is very realistic considering their ages and histories, but Kobe alone craved it. he's pissed and tired of being in Jordan and Shaq's shadows. and about the first thing you said, it makes no sense. if player A punches player B, player B should just man up right? same thing. if its illegal, call it. esp if its repetetive. and the reason dirk isnt the best of all time is because of tim diuncan and a lot of other better players. dirk will never sniff the top 50. he doesnt have the rebounding of a Duncan, nor the fundamentals, championship repertoire, nor the ability to carry a franchise multiple times. He lacks a lot. physicality is just one thing

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:37 PM
cuz u know how badly kobe and the rest of LA wanted it right? sorry, i just dont like when people say things like that. It is very realistic considering their ages and histories, but Kobe alone craved it. he's pissed and tired of being in Jordan and Shaq's shadows. and about the first thing you said, it makes no sense. if player A punches player B, player B should just man up right? same thing. if its illegal, call it. esp if its repetetive. and the reason dirk isnt the best of all time is because of tim diuncan and a lot of other better players. dirk will never sniff the top 50. he doesnt have the rebounding of a Duncan, nor the fundamentals, championship repertoire, nor the ability to carry a franchise multiple times. He lacks a lot. physicality is just one thing

point is, refs don't decide games. Players do. The Celtics were more physical, and played harder. The Lakers could have done the same. And Dirk will not be near Kobe as far as rankings all time. That wasn't my point. He had an unreal year. He was the best that year.
The Celtics did want it more. They played harder.

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 11:37 PM
For their time? Are you 11? That was like 2 years ago. The Mavs were awesome. I am not a fan of theirs ,but they killed everyone back then. The MVP always goes to the best player on one of the top 2-3 teams, hence Kobe winning it over LeBron this year. Sorry, I am in a bad mood, and I refuse to take bashing on great teams over time, to tell me that the current Lakers team is great. They haven't done crap. Prove you are a championship team, or move aside. Like all the other teams that don't get over the hump

1st...lebron didnt deserve it. CP3 if anyone but the MVP was clearly deservingly Kobe or Cp3's. and we'll see if they can get over the hump soon. and no, dude im 20. i said in their time because the league has changed a LOt since 06. teams are so much deeper and better now that its unreal to compare that Mavs team to any elite team now.

barreleffact
09-24-2008, 11:38 PM
point is, refs don't decide games. Players do. The Celtics were more physical, and played harder. The Lakers could have done the same. And Dirk will not be near Kobe as far as rankings all time. That wasn't my point. He had an unreal year. He was the best that year.
The Celtics did want it more. They played harder.

the refs are the legit 6th man. and are you telling me refs dont decide games? tell taht to sacremento is 02

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:38 PM
So him being a 1st team All-Defensive team 6 years in a row (7 total, not counting the second teams which is 2, making that 9 All-Defensive team appearances) is a fluke? :rolleyes:

fluke? No. A joke? Yes, in my opinion. I don't think Kobe is a top flight defender. Sorry. Nothing you can say, and no stats you can give me will change my mind. Battier guards his ***. Artest guards his ***. So you can define them by any position you want, they still deserve to be on that team before Bryant.

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:39 PM
the refs are the legit 6th man. and are you telling me refs dont decide games? tell taht to sacremento is 02

I am telling anyone. If you leave it up to the refs, you have already lost.

Teeboy1487
09-24-2008, 11:40 PM
Failure http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/dvv/bash.gif

Hawkeye15
09-24-2008, 11:41 PM
1st...lebron didnt deserve it. CP3 if anyone but the MVP was clearly deservingly Kobe or Cp3's. and we'll see if they can get over the hump soon. and no, dude im 20. i said in their time because the league has changed a LOt since 06. teams are so much deeper and better now that its unreal to compare that Mavs team to any elite team now.

The league is no different. The MVP should go to the most important player to their teams success. But it doesn't. I wouldn't argue with Paul, for sure. And in all reality, without Kobe, the Lakers would barely make the playoffs most likely, a 14 game difference or so. I have no issue with him winning MVP. I just think there was a better candidate. Oh well

x_notorious
09-24-2008, 11:44 PM
fluke? No. A joke? Yes, in my opinion. I don't think Kobe is a top flight defender. Sorry. Nothing you can say, and no stats you can give me will change my mind. Battier guards his ***. Artest guards his ***. So you can define them by any position you want, they still deserve to be on that team before Bryant.

At times, Kobe wonders on defense, at times, he is a lock down defender. But usually doesn't do both at the same time. I imagine he will tend more of the defensive role since he has plenty of help with the likes of Gasol, Odom and Bynum. And on multiple occasions, Kobe has lit up Artest with no mercy, just check the wonderful world of youtube.

Battier does give him his troubles, though. I mean, he still scored 33 PPG against the Rockets last year (3 games played) but he did it with a low FG and 3P %.

dre1990
09-24-2008, 11:57 PM
lets see what they can do next year 1st.

Fireworld
09-25-2008, 12:43 AM
Uhhh, not really a good comparision from the start, I mean comparing Dirk and Kobe, the thread should have stopped right there.

haha, yeah..

Lakersfan2483
09-25-2008, 01:25 AM
cuz u know how badly kobe and the rest of LA wanted it right? sorry, i just dont like when people say things like that. It is very realistic considering their ages and histories, but Kobe alone craved it. he's pissed and tired of being in Jordan and Shaq's shadows. and about the first thing you said, it makes no sense. if player A punches player B, player B should just man up right? same thing. if its illegal, call it. esp if its repetetive. and the reason dirk isnt the best of all time is because of tim diuncan and a lot of other better players. dirk will never sniff the top 50. he doesnt have the rebounding of a Duncan, nor the fundamentals, championship repertoire, nor the ability to carry a franchise multiple times. He lacks a lot. physicality is just one thing

Game 2 was one of the worst officiated games I have ever seen. The Celtics went to the line 30 more times than the lakers. It was ridiculous, but I think LA lost the series more so than the refs dictated it. The refs were awful in game 2, but LA should have won game 4, we were up by 24 pts and lost. I still can't get over loosing that game. Overall, I think the refs are huge in determining the outcome in games, but they are not the only deciding factor. Boston outplayed us and they won.

barreleffact
09-25-2008, 06:00 AM
The Lakers actually were favored by 90 percent of the analyst to win the finals, just check espn. they all picked the Lakers due to the ease they went through the west...Only a few of the critics picked the celtics

exactly. you have to remember the lakers were hot and celtics were not hot as they were older and had just been taken to 7, 7, and the 6 games, plus ray allen especially was very cold and he has to be hot because his defense isnt good. that was the mindset behind it

JordansBulls
09-25-2008, 10:11 AM
Stupid comparison.

- Dirk is no where near the realm of Kobe Bryant. Plus, Phil Jackson is his coach.

- Mavericks were completely healthy when coming into the Finals. Lakers are missing an upcoming center with a bright future. I mean 14/10/2 in 28 minutes isn't shabby

- Kobe is a top player in the league, Dirk will be fortunate to make top 8 (Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Williams). Kobe is a SG, Dirk is a PF. Kobe plays defense, Dirk does not.

- Gasol + Odom > Terry + Howard.

First, how is it a stupid comparison? Paul, Williams nor Howard were even close to Dirk in 2006. I think you are missing the point here.

JordansBulls
09-25-2008, 10:18 AM
So him being a 1st team All-Defensive team 6 years in a row (7 total, not counting the second teams which is 2, making that 9 All-Defensive team appearances) is a fluke? :rolleyes:

It's not a fluke, but when you finish 24th in DPOY voting you shouldn't be making any defensive teams.

lakers4sho
09-25-2008, 10:21 AM
It's not a fluke, but when you finish 24th in DPOY voting you shouldn't be making any defensive teams.

Yeah, when P.J. Brown got more MVP votes than you, you shouldn't even be in the MVP talks at all :rolleyes:

JordansBulls
09-25-2008, 10:51 AM
Yeah, when P.J. Brown got more MVP votes than you, you shouldn't even be in the MVP talks at all :rolleyes:

Well considering PJ Brown has never even been close to even a top 3 player on his team then yes that applies.



Don't compare Dirk to Kobe...Please do not. It is an insult really.

Also, the Lakers didn't choke no 2-0 lead. I guarantee if the Lakers had a 2-0 lead going home for three games in the series they would win.

Who is comparing Dirk and Kobe? 2 stars that took teams to the finals were being compared here and both played bad in the finals and both teams lost. Dirk has been one of the most efficient players in the league. Has led in PER as well.

You are right the Lakers didn't lose a 2-0 lead, but they still lost even though they were picked to win by many. Also Dirk didnt go home for 3 games after being up 2-0.

leftymo
09-25-2008, 11:02 AM
The officiating had nothing to do with it.

One team was more experienced, physical and wanted it more.

The other was the Lakers. Inexperienced, soft, and young.


The bright side for LA is that Kobe & Fish are the oldest two players on the club, so the Lakers are going to be around for awhile.

Boston has a much shorter window.

This year and that's probably it.

barreleffact
09-25-2008, 04:47 PM
The officiating had nothing to do with it.

One team was more experienced, physical and wanted it more.

The other was the Lakers. Inexperienced, soft, and young.


The bright side for LA is that Kobe & Fish are the oldest two players on the club, so the Lakers are going to be around for awhile.

Boston has a much shorter window.

This year and that's probably it.

the refs are the legit 6th man. you dont always see them take over but apparently it has happened before and it did then too. if yo think officiating had NOTHING to do with it, you should look at the games. 2ndly boston doesnt have just next year. their window is maybe 3 more years of serious title contention. like hte spurs are always in it even though they are old, boston will be in it the same way. i agree about the experience and toughness, but its easy to be tough when you go to the line when someone touches you and you can shove them to the ground and nobody calls squat.

ARMIN12NBA
09-25-2008, 11:34 PM
Well considering PJ Brown has never even been close to even a top 3 player on his team then yes that applies.




Who is comparing Dirk and Kobe? 2 stars that took teams to the finals were being compared here and both played bad in the finals and both teams lost. Dirk has been one of the most efficient players in the league. Has led in PER as well.

You are right the Lakers didn't lose a 2-0 lead, but they still lost even though they were picked to win by many. Also Dirk didnt go home for 3 games after being up 2-0.

He was referring to 2005 when PJ Brown got more MVP votes than Kobe...He was basically pointing out the flaw in your argument. PJ Brown got more votes, but we all know he isn't the better player (media bias...).

I was simply saying don't compare Dirk to Kobe. Don't at all. BTW-- The Lakers and the Mavs both played well in the Finals, just not well enough. Both teams had very realist chances on winning that series (Lakers were within 3 with seconds left in 2 games of winning and were leading in the 4th in the other--And we all know the Mavs tragic story).

I was refering to the fact that the Lakers would going home after being up 2-0...Not the Mavs. If the Lakers won the first 2 games then they would have gone back for three at home...I guarantee they win in that situation just like I would for any other team who has a 2-0 lead going back home for 3 games in the series.

JMan17
09-26-2008, 12:06 AM
To that person that said Dirk is "overrated" if Dirk were a free agent almost every team in the NBA with cap space would be trying to sign him and your calling him overrated, put Dirk on a team like the Heat and then they will become contenders in the East.

Dirk is not "overrated" but i agree for a 7'0 PF he is soft. Not soft as Gasol but he is not as a big of a rebounder or a defensive man. He also just fades away while he posts up when sometimes (depending on how strong the guy is) he could just post up and get tough and go for the dunk. There is nothing wrong with fading away if you make it of course but if anybody were saying that he is tough then i have clue where they are talking about.

I only think he is overrated when it comes to top 5. (Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, Howard, Amare, etc)

also you're comment about "are you serious" to Odom&Gasol>Terry&Howard

here's the thing.

Odom the "i can't spell my name right on the SATs" boy vs Terry " the undersized SG and only shoots 3s" boy. Kind of hard to compare them since they are different positions but if i did compare Odom is so much better IMO. He has much more to offer on the court then Terry can ever do.

Gasol "the Spanish Hero" Boy vs Howard "the DUI, drugs, i hate america and chokes in the playoffs" boy. Not even close. Once again different positions but you know, not even close. Gasol has a much smarter basketball IQ, (and smarter IQ overall considering what Howard is doing right now :pity: ) Better Rebounder, better defender, better blocker, better post moves, much rather have Gasol, no contest.

so my counter question to you is...ARE YOU?

Lost Art
09-26-2008, 01:13 AM
Yeah because both players have led teams to the finals to only lose and have 1 MVP a piece.

Kobe = 3 rings
Dirk = 0 rings

And Dirk didn't win the MVP that year. When Dirk won his he lost in the first round, Kobe took his team to the finals. Also the Lakers went through one of the most competitive conferences in league history to make it to the finals, there wasn't an easy matchup in the whole western conference bracket. It took 50 wins just to make the playoffs last season in the western conference last year and every team in the conference was just about even. And then on the other side of things the eastern conference was a joke.........and Boston struggled to close out series against teams that were barely 0.500 ball clubs only to turn it on in the finals. Pretty weird playoffs I'd say, not really like anything I've ever seen before.

........also the 2006 Mavs had that the Heat on the ropes then choked, where as the Lakers were playing catch-up all finals. I don't think it felt much like the '06 Mavs at all. Maybe the '06 Mavs = the '06 Lakers? The series where the Lakers were up 3-1 on the Suns and couldn't close it out?

horry1ur
09-26-2008, 01:24 AM
Not being a *** or a hater but i dont see the comparsion whatsoever can someone explain?

DODGERS&LAKERS
09-26-2008, 01:43 AM
Not being a *** or a hater but i dont see the comparsion whatsoever can someone explain?

It was a cheap attempt to remind everyone that Kobe and Dirk failed in the finals, thats all.

Lost Art
09-26-2008, 01:47 AM
It was a cheap attempt to remind everyone that Kobe and Dirk failed in the finals, thats all.

Cosigned. JB used to be a bit more non-partisan. He was picking against us in just about every series during the playoffs last year.........I think he gave the Lakers more love when we weren't the favorites :shrug: Hate on..........

LAKERS 24/7
09-26-2008, 01:59 AM
Its not a bad comparison, but the biggest difference is that we were missing a game changing, possible all-star. We were not at full strength as the mavs were.

horry1ur
09-26-2008, 02:27 AM
It was a cheap attempt to remind everyone that Kobe and Dirk failed in the finals, thats all.

Ahh got it..thank you! but cant wait to see what these haters say when Kobe wins in the Finals this year! Go Lakers!

#1Mavericksfan
09-26-2008, 04:01 AM
Kobe = 3 rings
Dirk = 0 rings

And Dirk didn't win the MVP that year. When Dirk won his he lost in the first round, Kobe took his team to the finals. Also the Lakers went through one of the most competitive conferences in league history to make it to the finals, there wasn't an easy matchup in the whole western conference bracket. It took 50 wins just to make the playoffs last season in the western conference last year and every team in the conference was just about even. And then on the other side of things the eastern conference was a joke.........and Boston struggled to close out series against teams that were barely 0.500 ball clubs only to turn it on in the finals. Pretty weird playoffs I'd say, not really like anything I've ever seen before.

........also the 2006 Mavs had that the Heat on the ropes then choked, where as the Lakers were playing catch-up all finals. I don't think it felt much like the '06 Mavs at all. Maybe the '06 Mavs = the '06 Lakers? The series where the Lakers were up 3-1 on the Suns and couldn't close it out?

Are you serious man?...if Dirk was playing with all that talent Kobe had(Shaq) he would have had 3 rings to so let's not even talk about that, If Kobe didn't have Pau Gasol on his team how far do you think the Lakers would have went in the playoffs if they would have made it?....Dirk lead that team all by himself to the NBA Finals by sweeping the Grizzlies, beating the Spurs in there house in 7 games and beating the Suns in there house to in 6 games so that doesn't mean anything now?....and let's not even talk about the NBA Finals because the so called experts on ESPN and people on this forum including youself pick the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 6 games beacuse there Lakers were supposed to be the better team.


oh and let's not talk about blowing leads what about that 24 point lead the Lakers had at home and choked remember that?....if the Lakers would have won that game the series might have been different, anyway you and all the other Lakers fans can say whatever want about the Mavs choking and blowing there lead like people haven't heard that already but atleast they didn't get ran off the court by 39 points in there game 6 loss like the Lakers.

JordansBulls
09-26-2008, 10:36 AM
Cosigned. JB used to be a bit more non-partisan. He was picking against us in just about every series during the playoffs last year.........I think he gave the Lakers more love when we weren't the favorites :shrug: Hate on..........

Actually picked you guys to beat Utah

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219073

The Prodigy
09-26-2008, 11:05 AM
completely different. First, the superstars are completely different. Dirk is a big man and Kobe's a guard. All dirk can do is score, he doesn't believe in defense. Kobe is one of the game's best defenders. Kobe's also a better scorer and passer than dirk. Second, Gasol and Odom are much better than Howard and Terry. It's not even close. Last, the Lakers played in a much harder western conference and against a much harder team in the finals. Can you honestly say this team would make it out of the first round in last years west (they're not beating the lakers, they probably wouldn't beat the Jazz or Hornets, and The spurs, Rockets, Suns, Nuggets and even the 2008 mavs could have beaten them). If the 2008 celtics played the 2006 heat in a 7 game series, the heat would be lucky to win one. The 2006 mavs were the product of a weaker league, just like the 2007 spurs. The lakers are easily the better team

i think the 2006 heat could put up a fight against the celtics. (not saying theyre would've won but it could happen) That year the heat had a motivated Shaquille oneal (who is way too strong to be beat by KG or kp43) and great three point shooters in jason kapono, williams,posey, and walker, we had a sloid pg system with williams and payton. wade was easily considederd a top 5 player in the leauge even top 3(still top 5 imo). Also shaq is more dominant than odom and pau put together and i have never seen a game where wade would take as many as kobe and not get 20 points. haslem who is just as good as odom imo. It can be argued that that heat team could put up a fight against the boston big three

BleedPurple
09-26-2008, 06:09 PM
That Dallas team was the softest 60 win team ever, all offense no D,some may say the same for the Lakers last year but we played very good D until it mattered most(FINALS).I see your point about the player positions but the Lakers team from last year was alot better than that Dallas team. LA would have swept Miami.

cmellofan15
09-26-2008, 07:06 PM
Ahh got it..thank you! but cant wait to see what these haters say when Kobe wins in the Finals this year! Go Lakers!

Ha!

cmellofan15
09-26-2008, 07:11 PM
That Dallas team was the softest 60 win team ever, all offense no D,some may say the same for the Lakers last year but we played very good D until it mattered most(FINALS).I see your point about the player positions but the Lakers team from last year was alot better than that Dallas team. LA would have swept Miami.

Sure :rolleyes: they couldn't get 3 wins on Boston when the Hawks could...

#1Mavericksfan
09-26-2008, 07:33 PM
That Dallas team was the softest 60 win team ever, all offense no D,some may say the same for the Lakers last year but we played very good D until it mattered most(FINALS).I see your point about the player positions but the Lakers team from last year was alot better than that Dallas team. LA would have swept Miami.

Man please! I can tell you don't know anything about the Mavericks and don't even call the Mavs soft when the Lakers were soft to, Avery Johnson was a defensive coach and the main reason the Mavs were able to beat the Spurs in the playoffs since you think the Mavs were "all offense no D" that season, Avery made Diop play stong defense on Tim Duncan and made Devin Harris play stong defense on Tony Parker, Dirk was unstoppable that season just like Kobe was this past season, and If your so sure the Lakers would have swept the Heat then please would have been guarding Shaq and Alonzo Mourning?....Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom and Ronny Turiaf would have been shut down by Shaq and Zo and the only person the would have been a threat on the Lakers would have been Kobe.

Lost Art
09-26-2008, 07:37 PM
Are you serious man?...if Dirk was playing with all that talent Kobe had(Shaq) he would have had 3 rings to so let's not even talk about that, If Kobe didn't have Pau Gasol on his team how far do you think the Lakers would have went in the playoffs if they would have made it?....Dirk lead that team all by himself to the NBA Finals by sweeping the Grizzlies, beating the Spurs in there house in 7 games and beating the Suns in there house to in 6 games so that doesn't mean anything now?....and let's not even talk about the NBA Finals because the so called experts on ESPN and people on this forum including youself pick the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 6 games beacuse there Lakers were supposed to be the better team.


oh and let's not talk about blowing leads what about that 24 point lead the Lakers had at home and choked remember that?....if the Lakers would have won that game the series might have been different, anyway you and all the other Lakers fans can say whatever want about the Mavs choking and blowing there lead like people haven't heard that already but atleast they didn't get ran off the court by 39 points in there game 6 loss like the Lakers.

You say that "Dirk led that team all by himself" but if you look at the playoff numbers from both squads you'd see that he had more help than Kobe did during that playoff run.

And the argument that "such and such player WOULD HAVE 3 rings too if only they had played with Shaq" is SUCH a tired argument. The fact of the matter is that they didn't and Kobe did. Who knows what would've happened if Shaq were paired with another player??? Nobody Knows. So stop using that as an argument, its pretty absurd. Did you know that is Stephon Marbury stayed with the Suns and played under D'Antoni's system with an emerging Amare he would've averaged 12 apg and he would have won two MVP awards? Did you know that if Clyde Drexler was on the Bulls instead of MJ they would have won just as many titles? ;)

barreleffact
09-26-2008, 08:27 PM
You say that "Dirk led that team all by himself" but if you look at the playoff numbers from both squads you'd see that he had more help than Kobe did during that playoff run.

And the argument that "such and such player WOULD HAVE 3 rings too if only they had played with Shaq" is SUCH a tired argument. The fact of the matter is that they didn't and Kobe did. Who knows what would've happened if Shaq were paired with another player??? Nobody Knows. So stop using that as an argument, its pretty absurd. Did you know that is Stephon Marbury stayed with the Suns and played under D'Antoni's system with an emerging Amare he would've averaged 12 apg and he would have won two MVP awards? Did you know that if Clyde Drexler was on the Bulls instead of MJ they would have won just as many titles? ;)

i thought the quote was clyde instead of pippen...or am i mistaken?

Hawkeye15
09-26-2008, 08:34 PM
Its not a bad comparison, but the biggest difference is that we were missing a game changing, possible all-star. We were not at full strength as the mavs were.

who was the game changing, possible all star on the Mavs? Cause, I think Gasol has made the all star team, and Odom wasn't too shabby either for a while. In fact they traded for an all star when their young center went down. If Bynum hadn't gone down, do you think the Lakers would have made a move for Gasol, and made it all the way to the finals? Don't think so

lakerboy
09-26-2008, 10:57 PM
Yeah because both players have led teams to the finals to only lose and have 1 MVP a piece.

This thread is a complete waste. You're only baiting.

By the way, Kobe has 3 rings already.

Lost Art
09-26-2008, 11:06 PM
i thought the quote was clyde instead of pippen...or am i mistaken?

No it was Clyde instead of MJ. Clyde was a hell of a player, he just got overshadowed by MJ and the Bulls.

........I was being a bit sarcastic BTW. I was responding to the Mavs fan saying that Dirk would've won 3 championships too if.........

Lost Art
09-26-2008, 11:08 PM
who was the game changing, possible all star on the Mavs? Cause, I think Gasol has made the all star team, and Odom wasn't too shabby either for a while. In fact they traded for an all star when their young center went down. If Bynum hadn't gone down, do you think the Lakers would have made a move for Gasol, and made it all the way to the finals? Don't think so

Gasol has made one allstar team (same as Howard), Odom hasn't made any. And Terry, Howard, and Stackhouse were plenty of help for Dirk (check the stats). Not to mention the toughness of the supporting cast and the great team D that that squad played (where Dirk was likely the weakest link). The Mavs were a defensive powerhouse that season, that was a HUGE part of making them a successful squad (which is usually the case).

Hawkeye15
09-27-2008, 12:06 AM
Gasol has made one allstar team (same as Howard), Odom hasn't made any. And Terry, Howard, and Stackhouse were plenty of help for Dirk (check the stats). Not to mention the toughness of the supporting cast and the great team D that that squad played (where Dirk was likely the weakest link). The Mavs were a defensive powerhouse that season, that was a HUGE part of making them a successful squad (which is usually the case).

you are right, the Mavs team from 06' was more talented, and better. That was my point 8 pages ago probably.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
09-27-2008, 03:00 AM
that SF problem will be fixed next season...

Fish
KB24
Odom
Gasol
Bynum

Musiq
09-27-2008, 09:15 AM
is it possible that defeating the defending champs really takes it out of ya on route to the finals? Besides the points mentioned already, i think the comparison is fairly legitmate. The Mavs-Spurs series of the 06' playoffs was probably one of the most fiercely contested series ever seen. Probably didn't help that Duncan was slowed by injury, but still a great series

I'm really getting tired of the "Kobe = 3 rings" statement. I mean, how much credit can a secondary star, playing second fiddle to one of the most dominant forces of all time get? And since Shaq did go on to win another title, it makes this statement even more ridiculous.

Clyde Drexler, good player that he was, could not replace MJ...he's not even ambidexterous (from what i remember), especially on the fast break:D

GCOOKIE7
09-27-2008, 09:48 AM
Is this a joke??????? This is as general as you can get!

HouRealCoach
09-27-2008, 10:36 AM
Im ok with the comparison. The difference is that the Mavs should have won. The Lakers were favored in the beginning for being better on paper, but as the series proved, the Celtics were the dominant team, start to finish. ALSO, the 2008 Celtics would have taken the 2006 Heat out in 5 or 6 games, I think the Lakers played the tougher team.

I think the 06' Mavs were better than the Heat, they blew it, where as I see the Celtics being better than the Lakers in 08'.

Props to the 08 Celtics, great TEAM BALL, period

Mourning, Payton, Posey, and Haslem played the toughest defense out of anyone that year....NOBODY could stop Wade....Shaq still put up 20,10....Everyone was hungry that year I say if Celtics did beat them it WOULLD NOT have been in 5 or 6 games....It would be a really close seven....U must not have seen how Wade got treated by the refs that year

barreleffact
09-27-2008, 10:41 AM
Mourning, Payton, Posey, and Haslem played the toughest defense out of anyone that year....NOBODY could stop Wade....Shaq still put up 20,10....Everyone was hungry that year I say if Celtics did beat them it WOULLD NOT have been in 5 or 6 games....It would be a really close seven....U must not have seen how Wade got treated by the refs that year

once again...the refs, the lgit 6th man.

but IDK...shaq was aging and the refs called everything on him. He could barely stay on the floor as is. Defense looked good, but I think Bostons was better and offensively the only real, non 3 point, threat was wade and we all know now that Boston can cover a 2 guard. I still think that wade's team was the worst of the 4 but you do make a comelling argument tho.

ARMIN12NBA
09-27-2008, 07:48 PM
Are you serious man?...if Dirk was playing with all that talent Kobe had(Shaq) he would have had 3 rings to so let's not even talk about that, If Kobe didn't have Pau Gasol on his team how far do you think the Lakers would have went in the playoffs if they would have made it?....Dirk lead that team all by himself to the NBA Finals by sweeping the Grizzlies, beating the Spurs in there house in 7 games and beating the Suns in there house to in 6 games so that doesn't mean anything now?....and let's not even talk about the NBA Finals because the so called experts on ESPN and people on this forum including youself pick the Lakers to beat the Celtics in 6 games beacuse there Lakers were supposed to be the better team.


oh and let's not talk about blowing leads what about that 24 point lead the Lakers had at home and choked remember that?....if the Lakers would have won that game the series might have been different, anyway you and all the other Lakers fans can say whatever want about the Mavs choking and blowing there lead like people haven't heard that already but atleast they didn't get ran off the court by 39 points in there game 6 loss like the Lakers.

:pity: I think it is so ignorant and ridiculous that every basketball fan thinks that any good player could have worked with the dominant Shaq well.

Some fans don't realize that their has to be chemistry between the players and not just off the court. I am talking about chemistry between them on the court.

Dirk and Shaq=fail. Dirk is a predominantly iso type of player. He likes to play in the iso, which would not have worked well with Shaq. How will Shaq get his touches when Dirk is going into an iso? He will not. If Dirk gives the ball up to Shaq then his game will drop dramatically.

Tex Winter, who is one of the founders of the triangle offense and BULLS assistant coach, said that Michael Jordan and Shaq would NOT have worked out and they would NOT have won ships together. Why? They both really need the ball to be effective and neither player would be willing to give up their stats or personal glory to win game (MJ and Shaq both would rather be great individually than win ships was basically the idea there).

Kobe and dominant Shaq is the only pairing that would truly work for those 3 rings. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game for the better of the team, which was highlighted especially in 2000 when he decided to only focus on defense and become the prime contributor of distributing the ball in the triangle offense to get the ball to Shaq. Kobe and Shaq clicked before their unfortunate fallout. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game to get the easy buckets from Shaq and Shaq was willing to pass out of double teams to get the ball to Kobe. For those few years, it was perfect timing for their respective personalities and skill level. It was like a match made in heaven.

So please, PSD posters, stop with all the BS of, well if we put Dirk or this guy or that guy with Shaq then he will have 3 ships too. No he would not.

Hawkeye15
09-27-2008, 08:08 PM
:pity: I think it is so ignorant and ridiculous that every basketball fan thinks that any good player could have worked with the dominant Shaq well.

Some fans don't realize that their has to be chemistry between the players and not just off the court. I am talking about chemistry between them on the court.

Dirk and Shaq=fail. Dirk is a predominantly iso type of player. He likes to play in the iso, which would not have worked well with Shaq. How will Shaq get his touches when Dirk is going into an iso? He will not. If Dirk gives the ball up to Shaq then his game will drop dramatically.

Tex Winter, who is one of the founders of the triangle offense and BULLS assistant coach, said that Michael Jordan and Shaq would NOT have worked out and they would NOT have won ships together. Why? They both really need the ball to be effective and neither player would be willing to give up their stats or personal glory to win game (MJ and Shaq both would rather be great individually than win ships was basically the idea there).

Kobe and dominant Shaq is the only pairing that would truly work for those 3 rings. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game for the better of the team, which was highlighted especially in 2000 when he decided to only focus on defense and become the prime contributor of distributing the ball in the triangle offense to get the ball to Shaq. Kobe and Shaq clicked before their unfortunate fallout. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game to get the easy buckets from Shaq and Shaq was willing to pass out of double teams to get the ball to Kobe. For those few years, it was perfect timing for their respective personalities and skill level. It was like a match made in heaven.

So please, PSD posters, stop with all the BS of, well if we put Dirk or this guy or that guy with Shaq then he will have 3 ships too. No he would not.


I think Dirk and Shaq would have complemented each other. That being said, Shaq obviously thrives when he has a talented guard around him. I also think the is Shaq stayed in Orlando, and Penny were healthy, they would have won it as well.

Raidaz4Life
09-27-2008, 08:23 PM
I don't see it

JordansBulls
09-27-2008, 11:01 PM
:pity: I think it is so ignorant and ridiculous that every basketball fan thinks that any good player could have worked with the dominant Shaq well.

Some fans don't realize that their has to be chemistry between the players and not just off the court. I am talking about chemistry between them on the court.

Dirk and Shaq=fail. Dirk is a predominantly iso type of player. He likes to play in the iso, which would not have worked well with Shaq. How will Shaq get his touches when Dirk is going into an iso? He will not. If Dirk gives the ball up to Shaq then his game will drop dramatically.

Tex Winter, who is one of the founders of the triangle offense and BULLS assistant coach, said that Michael Jordan and Shaq would NOT have worked out and they would NOT have won ships together. Why? They both really need the ball to be effective and neither player would be willing to give up their stats or personal glory to win game (MJ and Shaq both would rather be great individually than win ships was basically the idea there).

Kobe and dominant Shaq is the only pairing that would truly work for those 3 rings. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game for the better of the team, which was highlighted especially in 2000 when he decided to only focus on defense and become the prime contributor of distributing the ball in the triangle offense to get the ball to Shaq. Kobe and Shaq clicked before their unfortunate fallout. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game to get the easy buckets from Shaq and Shaq was willing to pass out of double teams to get the ball to Kobe. For those few years, it was perfect timing for their respective personalities and skill level. It was like a match made in heaven.

So please, PSD posters, stop with all the BS of, well if we put Dirk or this guy or that guy with Shaq then he will have 3 ships too. No he would not.

Jordan won with a guys who were no where near a prime Shaq. In fact, Jordan himself stated that had he played with a 7 footer he would have no problem deferring. In fact Wade won with a Shaq that was past his prime and Penny was in the Finals with Shaq in his prime.

#1Mavericksfan
09-27-2008, 11:53 PM
:pity: I think it is so ignorant and ridiculous that every basketball fan thinks that any good player could have worked with the dominant Shaq well.

Some fans don't realize that their has to be chemistry between the players and not just off the court. I am talking about chemistry between them on the court.

Dirk and Shaq=fail. Dirk is a predominantly iso type of player. He likes to play in the iso, which would not have worked well with Shaq. How will Shaq get his touches when Dirk is going into an iso? He will not. If Dirk gives the ball up to Shaq then his game will drop dramatically.

Tex Winter, who is one of the founders of the triangle offense and BULLS assistant coach, said that Michael Jordan and Shaq would NOT have worked out and they would NOT have won ships together. Why? They both really need the ball to be effective and neither player would be willing to give up their stats or personal glory to win game (MJ and Shaq both would rather be great individually than win ships was basically the idea there).

Kobe and dominant Shaq is the only pairing that would truly work for those 3 rings. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game for the better of the team, which was highlighted especially in 2000 when he decided to only focus on defense and become the prime contributor of distributing the ball in the triangle offense to get the ball to Shaq. Kobe and Shaq clicked before their unfortunate fallout. Kobe was willing to sacrifice his game to get the easy buckets from Shaq and Shaq was willing to pass out of double teams to get the ball to Kobe. For those few years, it was perfect timing for their respective personalities and skill level. It was like a match made in heaven.

So please, PSD posters, stop with all the BS of, well if we put Dirk or this guy or that guy with Shaq then he will have 3 ships too. No he would not.


Dirk can play SF/PF/C....so you mean to tell me Dirk and Shaq play together?...the Mavs could have killed teams with Shaq in the post and Dirk wide open to shoot 3 pointers it would have been pick your posion, The Mavs never had a center like Shaq to play with Dirk so who's to say it wouldn't have worked out?...Shaq and Kobe were great together and we all know that they have 3 rings to prove but you can't sit up here and say Dirk and Shaq wouldn't have worked out with the Mavs never even having a powerful center like Shaq.


Oh and nobody is comparing Dirk to Kobe because there is no comparsion but don't try sit up here and act like Dirk is a scrub because if it wasn't for him we wouldn't even be talking about the Mavericks.

dannyking18
09-28-2008, 12:20 AM
1mavericksfan he said the 2008 lakers not the 2004 lakers!....and yes the 2008 lakers would have and will slauhter the 04 mavs if 2008 lakers healthy we all know that.mavericks weakest position is the middle,i remember last game the mavs played the lakers,kobe would drive in and into the rim like nothing cause there was nothing patroling in the middle of the paint for the mavs.and now the mavs are going to be worse than last year in my opinion if you carefully look at the mavs situation.idk why the mavs would go ahead and trade there future star devin harris for a old beat-up kidd but he still may have some gas in the tank and is a amazing player in his prime and still has a few tricks in his pocket,but it was sincerly a bad move on the mavs side.if mavs would have stayed with harris threw out this season and coming into the 08-09 season harris would have average something between 13-15 ppg with the mavs,that would have changed the mavs completely for the 09 they would have been more athletic,quicker and a bit more of a scoring team than 08.

nowitzki-22.8
howard-17.1
terry-14.6
harris-13.8
stackhouse-10.4

this may have been the scneario for the 09 mavs but,o'well we'll have to wait and see.this was just IMO.

ARMIN12NBA
09-28-2008, 12:43 AM
Jordan won with a guys who were no where near a prime Shaq. In fact, Jordan himself stated that had he played with a 7 footer he would have no problem deferring. In fact Wade won with a Shaq that was past his prime and Penny was in the Finals with Shaq in his prime.

I highly doubt that. I trust Tex on what he said. He was around Jordan all the time and is never afraid to speak his mind while Jordan is a PR robot. He is programmed to say all the right things.

That is the point. Wade won with a past his prime Shaq. Penny was willing to defer, but Shaq was also young at that time. Kobe and Shaq worked together when Shaq was at his most dominant stage and needed the ball the most. That is the true testament of how much a player wants to win IMO. Kobe lessened his own stats and did the dirty work for the Lakers to win the ships. He knew and we all knew that a big man like Shaq in his prime getting the ball the most is for the better of the team. Kobe deferred for the better of the Lakers. Would Jordan have done that? Not according to people who know him. Wade? Maybe. Penny? Yah. I think Penny would've worked with dominant Shaq.

#1Mavericksfan
09-28-2008, 01:50 AM
1mavericksfan he said the 2008 lakers not the 2004 lakers!....and yes the 2008 lakers would have and will slauhter the 04 mavs if 2008 lakers healthy we all know that.mavericks weakest position is the middle,i remember last game the mavs played the lakers,kobe would drive in and into the rim like nothing cause there was nothing patroling in the middle of the paint for the mavs.and now the mavs are going to be worse than last year in my opinion if you carefully look at the mavs situation.idk why the mavs would go ahead and trade there future star devin harris for a old beat-up kidd but he still may have some gas in the tank and is a amazing player in his prime and still has a few tricks in his pocket,but it was sincerly a bad move on the mavs side.if mavs would have stayed with harris threw out this season and coming into the 08-09 season harris would have average something between 13-15 ppg with the mavs,that would have changed the mavs completely for the 09 they would have been more athletic,quicker and a bit more of a scoring team than 08.

nowitzki-22.8
howard-17.1
terry-14.6
harris-13.8
stackhouse-10.4

this may have been the scneario for the 09 mavs but,o'well we'll have to wait and see.this was just IMO.

Ok where did you get 04 Mavs from?...I already know the 08 Lakers would have beat the 04 Mavs but the Lakers would have not just "slauhter" the 06 Mavs like, if the 06 Mavs and 08 Lakers would have met in the playoffs it would have been a war.

innovator
09-28-2008, 06:30 AM
the big difference KOBE BRYANT

and for the mavs they were complete as for the lakers they were without bynum

JordansBulls
09-28-2008, 09:35 AM
I highly doubt that. I trust Tex on what he said. He was around Jordan all the time and is never afraid to speak his mind while Jordan is a PR robot. He is programmed to say all the right things.

That is the point. Wade won with a past his prime Shaq. Penny was willing to defer, but Shaq was also young at that time. Kobe and Shaq worked together when Shaq was at his most dominant stage and needed the ball the most. That is the true testament of how much a player wants to win IMO. Kobe lessened his own stats and did the dirty work for the Lakers to win the ships. He knew and we all knew that a big man like Shaq in his prime getting the ball the most is for the better of the team. Kobe deferred for the better of the Lakers. Would Jordan have done that? Not according to people who know him. Wade? Maybe. Penny? Yah. I think Penny would've worked with dominant Shaq.

Jordan and Shaq would have worked much better. First off, they are the top 2 in NBA History in Efficiency/PER. Meaning they are effective as hell. I'll take what has been proven, meaning guys who actually led teams to titles over an opinion of someone else. Afterall both MJ and Shaq won titles as the best players on the team and the most efficient guys in the league. They would have been an even more effective duo. Besides MJ was older than Shaq anyway, and the reason that Shaq had beef with other guys was because he was in his prime and older than those 2nd options.

nalej85
09-28-2008, 10:43 AM
If Dirk is overrated than any player that loses in the finals should be considered overrated as well if they play worse than they usually do.

true, unless they've been underated for a very long time period.

ARMIN12NBA
09-28-2008, 01:25 PM
Jordan and Shaq would have worked much better. First off, they are the top 2 in NBA History in Efficiency/PER. Meaning they are effective as hell. I'll take what has been proven, meaning guys who actually led teams to titles over an opinion of someone else. Afterall both MJ and Shaq won titles as the best players on the team and the most efficient guys in the league. They would have been an even more effective duo. Besides MJ was older than Shaq anyway, and the reason that Shaq had beef with other guys was because he was in his prime and older than those 2nd options.

Basketball is not about PER or Efficiency as the 2002 and 2006 World Championships proved as well as the 2004 Olympics. You can gather the greatest players of all time and they may not work because of chemistry on and off the court. I trust Tex when he talks about how MJ's personality would have not worked well with Shaq. They both cherish individual achievements. Not even efficiency or PER can get in the way of that. Tex always speaks his mind and is one of the smartest basketball minds. If he says MJ would not like to play with Shaq then I will go with his opinion over JordansBulls of PSD :cool:

JordansBulls
09-28-2008, 01:53 PM
Basketball is not about PER or Efficiency as the 2002 and 2006 World Championships proved as well as the 2004 Olympics. You can gather the greatest players of all time and they may not work because of chemistry on and off the court. I trust Tex when he talks about how MJ's personality would have not worked well with Shaq. They both cherish individual achievements. Not even efficiency or PER can get in the way of that. Tex always speaks his mind and is one of the smartest basketball minds. If he says MJ would not like to play with Shaq then I will go with his opinion over JordansBulls of PSD :cool:

Unlike you I base my assumptions on what has happened and not on the opinions of others. The fact that both players won as the best players on their teams shows they can win when together.

Besides, you just mentioned that Tex Winter said that, however you never brought forth the source.

Afterall, only Kobe and Shaq could win titles especially when Kobe is averaging 16 ppg on 37% in the finals.
:rolleyes:

lakers4sho
09-28-2008, 01:56 PM
Unlike you I base my assumptions on what has happened and not on the opinions of others. The fact that both players won as the best players on their teams shows they can win when together.

Besides, you just mentioned that Tex Winter said that, however you never brought forth the source.

Afterall, only Kobe and Shaq could win titles especially when Kobe is averaging 16 ppg on 37% in the finals.
:rolleyes:

The fact that you've never worked with those players PERSONALLY shows that you can't make an assumption that those players would work out perfectly.

JordansBulls
09-28-2008, 01:59 PM
The fact that you've never worked with those players PERSONALLY shows that you can't make an assumption that those players would work out perfectly.

No one is saying they would be ideal and get along, however when you consider the fact that both players are guys that are proven on the big stage, you have to base assumptions on what they have done and them just uniting would be just be the worst thing to happen to the league and wouldn't even be fair because both are extremely efficient.

Even MJ himself said that had he had a 7 footer like that he'd still be playing.

MJ Speaks (http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/People_Profile/0,2540,213,00.html)


Give me a seven-footer and I'd probably still be playing right now.


MJ was the player he was because he never had that player that could dominate in the paint something that was known to be needed to win titles.

cmellofan15
09-28-2008, 02:08 PM
^ It's like putting Chuck Norris at PG for the Celtics

ARMIN12NBA
09-28-2008, 03:14 PM
Unlike you I base my assumptions on what has happened and not on the opinions of others. The fact that both players won as the best players on their teams shows they can win when together.

Besides, you just mentioned that Tex Winter said that, however you never brought forth the source.

Afterall, only Kobe and Shaq could win titles especially when Kobe is averaging 16 ppg on 37% in the finals.
:rolleyes:

No. That shows that they CANNOT win together. They were both the main guys. How will they work together when one of them has to step their game back? That is what Tex was speaking of, their personalities and especially MJ's. Jordan wasn't willing to take away the spotlight from himself. MJ and Shaq would not have worked because neither would be willing to sacrifice. MJ and Scottie worked because Scottie took back from his own game and focused on being the defensive stopper and glue to the offense.

Here you go:
"In a statement that may surprise a lot of people, Winter told Lazenby that he doubted that Jordan would have been a good fit playing alongside Shaquille O'Neal." --David Friedman on Winter with Roland Lazenby

Nice jab at Kobe right there. Care to mention that he was playing with a busted up ankle. I guess not :rolleyes:

JordansBulls
09-28-2008, 03:27 PM
No. That shows that they CANNOT win together. They were both the main guys. How will they work together when one of them has to step their game back? That is what Tex was speaking of, their personalities and especially MJ's. Jordan wasn't willing to take away the spotlight from himself. MJ and Shaq would not have worked because neither would be willing to sacrifice. MJ and Scottie worked because Scottie took back from his own game and focused on being the defensive stopper and glue to the offense.

Here you go:
"In a statement that may surprise a lot of people, Winter told Lazenby that he doubted that Jordan would have been a good fit playing alongside Shaquille O'Neal." --David Friedman on Winter with Roland Lazenby

Nice jab at Kobe right there. Care to mention that he was playing with a busted up ankle. I guess not :rolleyes:

The article I presented showed that MJ himself said he would still be playing had he had a 7 footer that good.

As far as the other comment, big deal he said it wouldn't be a good fit, it doesn't say they wouldn't have won. When you have two efficient players like that that played different positions it is rather easy to win. MJ and Shaq would have worked even better because you wouldn't be able to double either player since both are efficient.

MJ and Pippen worked because MJ was the efficient player on the team and the star. Pippen took time to develop and had to grow into the role. When you start off averaging 8 and 4 you don't have much say so and you need help to get better. Which Pippen did get better and became a top 25 Player all time.

As far as your other comment, Kobe still averaged 16 ppg on 37%. In fact he has played horrible in most finals and this being the 2nd option where he has the liberty to play one on one.
I like how when Kobe gets injured or something, people bring it up, but when Pierce is injured or someone else they say it is fake.

CowboysKB24
09-28-2008, 03:35 PM
Dallas Mavericks 2006 sort of similar to the 2008 LA Lakers in a sense

Both teams had superstars and was led by them. Dirk and Kobe. Both teams had great 2nd options in Howard and Gasol.

Both teams even had great 3rd options in Terry and Odom. Both teams had good role players in Fisher, Farmar, Sasha, Stackhouse, Harris and Dampier

The one glaring weakness for both teams had to do with SG or SF. For the Mavs they had Griffin starting at SG and for the Lakers they had Vladamir starting at SF.


Both teams went to the finals and won 2 games as well.


Those were two teams that seemed to be similar as a whole.


What do you think?

The difference is that the Mavs blew a 2-0 lead. They didn't have a season when three super star joined on one team. They were the best team in the league that year and lost, Lakers were best in West.