PDA

View Full Version : Palin RNC Speech



FearAD
09-03-2008, 11:36 PM
Wow!!!

She caught me totally off guard. I was surprised that she spent the majority of her speech attacking Obama and Biden. Obvisously she has put up her dukes and wants to rumble. She has made it clear she considers herself a pit bull. Obama and Biden have no choice at this point but to attack back and no issue is off the table.

I thought her personal attacks on Obama were a bit childish and negative.

Note, however, that she did not lay a foundation for a platform.

I am curious too how she is going to justify alternative fuels when that clearly is a democratic ticket point.

As a parent of a 15 year daughter, I thought too it set a bad example to promote teenage pregnancy in the national spotlight.

ink
09-03-2008, 11:44 PM
On performance, excellent. On attacks, good. The Dems better have a strategy. I've been saying since she was nominated that they better not underestimate her. But on accuracy and truthfulness, questionable. So, Dems, get to it! Challenge her facts!

And I agree with you that her attacks were a bit juvenile. That's what made the speech like a roast.

Yep, where is the foundation for a platform?

b1e9a8r5s
09-03-2008, 11:47 PM
As a parent of a 15 year daughter, I thought too it set a bad example to promote teenage pregnancy in the national spotlight.

Exactly when did that take place?

ink
09-03-2008, 11:49 PM
I'm OK with her being proud of her family and especially proud that the family has been able to work it out. To me those are universal values.

DreamShaker
09-03-2008, 11:51 PM
On performance, excellent. On attacks, good. The Dems better have a strategy. I've been saying since she was nominated that they better not underestimate her. But on accuracy and truthfulness, questionable. So, Dems, get to it! Challenge her facts!

And I agree with you that her attacks were a bit juvenile. That's what made the speech like a roast. Yep, where is the foundation for a platform?

I don't get it? Yesterday everybody is like "oh they didn't attack enough" and now everyone is complaining that she attacked too much?? I didn't see the speech so I have no idea....but what did she attack about???

ink
09-03-2008, 11:51 PM
Dude on TV is talking about "community organizers" and he has a great point. Palin belittled community work as if it meant nothing. That was dumb. As this guy is pointing out, tell that to the community folks who keep families together and help them work out day to day economic problems.

Brewersin08
09-03-2008, 11:53 PM
"The difference between a hockey mom and a pitbull is lipstick."

I didn't listen to the entire speech, but I liked that line.

DreamShaker
09-03-2008, 11:53 PM
I'm OK with her being proud of her family and especially proud that the family has been able to work it out. To me those are universal values.

Yeah stuff happens....but this is my concern....she is the mother of a small child with mental retardation....that is not an easy task.....I don't know how she can balance that....I know that the Dems or anyone wouldn't attack that but that has got to be hard....I guess hubby man will have to be a stay-at-home dad...

ink
09-03-2008, 11:53 PM
I don't get it? Yesterday everybody is like "oh they didn't attack enough" and now everyone is complaining that she attacked too much?? I didn't see the speech so I have no idea....but what did she attack about???

She mocked Obama constantly. It was done like a roast where she gave the audience one-liners to mock the opposition with. Same crap the ads were doing earlier. "Smug, sarcastic, cutting" are words they're using to describe the tone of the speech on CNN right now. Now they're pointing out the problems with her facts.

ryanph30
09-03-2008, 11:54 PM
I thought she did a great job.

ink
09-03-2008, 11:54 PM
Yeah stuff happens....but this is my concern....she is the mother of a small child with mental retardation....that is not an easy task.....I don't know how she can balance that....I know that the Dems or anyone wouldn't attack that but that has got to be hard....I guess hubby man will have to be a stay-at-home dad...

Funny, there was a clip on the abc.com website where Barbara Walters brought up exactly the same point today ... on The View (horrible show!). lol.

Conor
09-03-2008, 11:54 PM
Palin's speech was idiotic IMO. She alienated some republicans (mockingly referring to "Good Ole Boys") and all democrats. If I'm her or McCain, I'm trying to win some of the democratic vote, because if only republicans vote for them, they've got no shot.

Her and Giuliani did nothing but further seal their fate.

ink
09-03-2008, 11:56 PM
Palin's speech was idiotic IMO. She alienated some republicans (mockingly referring to "Good Ole Boys") and all democrats. If I'm her or McCain, I'm trying to win some of the democratic vote, because if only republicans vote for them, they've got no shot.

Her and Giuliani did nothing but further seal their fate.

It was definitely an "in crowd" speech.

DreamShaker
09-03-2008, 11:56 PM
Funny, there was a clip on the abc.com website where Barbara Walters brought up exactly the same point today ... on The View (horrible show!). lol.

Really?? You know if Obama brought that up he would be crucified though....

DreamShaker
09-03-2008, 11:57 PM
Palin's speech was idiotic IMO. She alienated some republicans (mockingly referring to "Good Ole Boys") and all democrats. If I'm her or McCain, I'm trying to win some of the democratic vote, because if only republicans vote for them, they've got no shot.

Her and Giuliani did nothing but further seal their fate.

I doubt this convention will seal anybody's fate either way....

b1e9a8r5s
09-03-2008, 11:59 PM
Yeah stuff happens....but this is my concern....she is the mother of a small child with mental retardation....that is not an easy task.....I don't know how she can balance that....I know that the Dems or anyone wouldn't attack that but that has got to be hard....I guess hubby man will have to be a stay-at-home dad...

Rudy tackled this point, saying something to the effect of, would you ever bring that up about a man? Which I think is completely true. A baseball player, male politician, or anyone else who travels or has a "demanding" job would never have that brought up.

Brewersin08
09-03-2008, 11:59 PM
She mocked Obama constantly. It was done like a roast where she gave the audience one-liners to mock the opposition with. Same crap the ads were doing earlier. "Smug, sarcastic, cutting" are words they're using to describe the tone of the speech on CNN right now. Now they're pointing out the problems with her facts.

The media is overly biased. I swear most of these journalists probably took the right signal light out of their car. With the exception of Fox News that is.

ink
09-04-2008, 12:01 AM
Really?? You know if Obama brought that up he would be crucified though....

One of the other women (of the four in The View) jumped right up and said she was so insulted. Then Walters said, "as a woman, I'm just asking how she balances things". Obama would never touch that subject, nor should he.

ink
09-04-2008, 12:04 AM
The media is overly biased. I swear most of these journalists probably took the right signal light out of their car. With the exception of Fox News that is.

First time I've heard that one. :laugh2:

idk, man, she was VERY sarcastic.

Didn't appeal to me for exactly that reason. The hockey mom/pitbull thing was a funny line, but I hate the kind of angry, partisan rhetoric she was delivering tonight.

And I hate it from EITHER side. I hope the American public feels the same way and gets tired of the "angry right". ;)

DreamShaker
09-04-2008, 12:06 AM
First time I've heard that one. :laugh2:

idk, man, she was VERY sarcastic.

Didn't appeal to me for exactly that reason. The hockey mom/pitbull thing was a funny line, but I hate the kind of angry, partisan rhetoric she was delivering tonight.

And I hate it from EITHER side. I hope the American public feels the same when and gets tired of the "angry right". ;)

Then again you could look at it from the view that she's honest....and not PC....:shrug:

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 12:07 AM
First time I've heard that one. :laugh2: idk, man, she was VERY sarcastic. Didn't appeal to me for exactly that reason. The hockey mom/pitbull thing was a funny line, but I hate the kind of angry, partisan rhetoric she was delivering tonight.

She definitely let some jabs fly, probably a little more than I expected. But, I think some of that was by design. The worst thing she could have come across as, is a weak, or as a token woman. I thought she came across as tough, but not as a "b----", as can sometimes be a problem for women in politics.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 12:08 AM
First time I've heard that one. :laugh2:

idk, man, she was VERY sarcastic.

Didn't appeal to me for exactly that reason. The hockey mom/pitbull thing was a funny line, but I hate the kind of angry, partisan rhetoric she was delivering tonight.

And I hate it from EITHER side. I hope the American public feels the same way and gets tired of the "angry right". ;)

I know your not saying only the right does it, but I think the left bloggers have come across as quite angry in the last few days. Making up stories about fake pregnacies and such.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 12:09 AM
couldn't stop laughing at the claims that Obama was going to raise everyone's taxes.:D Easy one for the dems to knock down given the facts of the two tax plans:clap:.

What I learned was that she can read and deliver a speech, and is going to be on the attack. ON the subject of substance, this is the typical bs spin that the democrats are already out in front of with substance like a factual representation of economic and tax policy

ink
09-04-2008, 12:09 AM
She definitely let some jabs fly, probably a little more than I expected. But, I think some of that was by design. The worst thing she could have come across as, is a weak, or as a token woman. I thought she came across as tough, but not as a "b----", as can sometimes be a problem for women in politics.

It's a balancing act from here on for the Dems. She can attack as hard as she likes but they'll have to be more careful in answering her in kind.

DreamShaker
09-04-2008, 12:10 AM
Rudy tackled this point, saying something to the effect of, would you ever bring that up about a man? Which I think is completely true. A baseball player, male politician, or anyone else who travels or has a "demanding" job would never have that brought up.

You got a good point....

ink
09-04-2008, 12:11 AM
I know your not saying only the right does it, but I think the left bloggers have come across as quite angry in the last few days. Making up stories about fake pregnacies and such.

I'm completely with you if you're condemning the idiots who've been blogging about the pregnancy.

ink
09-04-2008, 12:13 AM
So, now we know Palin's role - the tough talker. It'll be very interesting to see her debate Biden.

ink
09-04-2008, 12:16 AM
This was posted in another thread. The Dems better be mindful of this and also of belittling Palin ...


Brian Kalt: Democrats attack Palin at their peril
Posted: September 03, 2008, 1:20 PM by Kelly McParland

Every four years, Democrats in the United States make the same mistake. They underestimate the appeal of the Republican Party to Middle America, and then reduce their own appeal by belittling it. Now, Democrats are falling into the same trap again with Sarah Palin, John McCain’s vice-presidential nominee.

Palin is a tremendously popular pick among the party base, which had previously been unenthusiastic about McCain’s candidacy. These are not people who are interested in gender as such; they like Palin for her persona and her politics. So far, though, Palin’s critics have concentrated mainly on her persona. In her speech to the Republican National Convention this week, Palin has a great opportunity to take advantage of these tone-deaf critics.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/09/03/brian-kalt-democrats-attack-palin-at-their-peril.aspx

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 12:16 AM
So, now we know Palin's role - the tough talker. It'll be very interesting to see her debate Biden.

it's also the person who claims responsibility of state budget surpluses and tax rebates to citizens that have been going on long before her arrival and strictly due to a low population and a large revenue on mining and natural resources exporting. she has nothing to do with any of those economic issues. they have been going on as long as mining and harvesting of natural resources in Alaska's statehood:eyebrow:

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 12:19 AM
So, now we know Palin's role - the tough talker. It'll be very interesting to see her debate Biden.

Agreed. I know you've said from the beginning, that she shouldn't be taken lightly.

I expect to see the polls back to pre-convention levels soon and expect a very tight race all the way, barring some major set back by either side.

metsfreak
09-04-2008, 12:20 AM
She seemed more like a comidian than a VP candidate. :shrug:

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 12:22 AM
She seemed more like a comidian than a VP candidate. :shrug:

that's because they are openly saying that they are running on personality instead of the issues. the mccain campaign said it themselves today.

I guess when economic facts don't help your case, you crack jokes and belittle.

CuseDude87
09-04-2008, 12:41 AM
Least professional, most adolescent, completely uncalled for tactics in a speech for a major political position that I have seen in quite some time.

Talk about resorting to playground insults because you have nothing that speaks to the accomplishments of your own career. Palin talked more about McCain and Obama then she did about her own self-worth as a vice presidential pick.

I wasn't expecting a glorious speech, but I was very disappointed in the lack of intellectual arguments that should be the norm in any speech accepting a public office, regardless of the "preaching to the choir" notion.

Pathetic display on her part, and I hope most Americans can see through the childish attacks and baseless claims she made throughout her speech.

KingJamsI
09-04-2008, 12:43 AM
This was a mean spirited, childish and frankly predictable from a 20 month governor speech. Palin just lost most moderates, independents, and people searching for a higher level of political discourse. She showed her true colors tonight. The GOP is swinging, biting, kicking, and screaming because their backed into a corner while they get outclassed by the Dems. Unfortunately it may work anyways because we live in a country where class has become a dirty word.

spartanbear
09-04-2008, 01:07 AM
Does anyone know where I can find the speech in its entirety? A link or something? I've caught clips that folks have posted on youtube but not the whole thing.

I guess it'll be back on cnn or something before anyone even comes across my post. Either way I would like to see the speech. Thanks if you can help out.

ink
09-04-2008, 01:08 AM
Does anyone know where I can find the speech in its entirety? A link or something? I've caught clips that folks have posted on youtube but not the whole thing.

I guess it'll be back on cnn or something before anyone even comes across my post. Either way I would like to see the speech. Thanks if you can help out.

Here ya go ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7597238.stm

carson005
09-04-2008, 01:19 AM
Speech caught me offguard, but I liked it. I can't wait to see the debates, if she can deliver it would be great for Mccain who can't talk anywhere as good as Obama.

spartanbear
09-04-2008, 01:54 AM
Thanks Ink.

So yeah checked it out. Strong words. She needed them. She rallied up the base and now her folks trust her. So good job Sarah Palin. I don't have a huge problem with the Obama "attacks." I mean did anyone expect anything less? It's your responsibility as a voter to siphon through the junk (on both sides might I add) and make a responsible decision. I am not a huge follower of politics (this is really the first election I actually followed) and I'm interested in knowing how many people haven't made up there minds yet? Idk I mean if anything Obama/Biden said last week or Palin said or McCain will say this week is going to change your mind (or make up your mind)...then lord bless you.

If you're keeping score:

Obama's a tax raising commy, whose black, inexperienced, two-faced, a punk, unpatriotic and the most liberal member of the senate who delivers empty speeches that are overwhelming inspirational but again filled with nothing. His primary oppenent -the woman that should have won doesn't even believe he's qualified to be president. He's sexist. He's racist and if given the chance will turn the county over the radical left black groups. He's out of touch with working class white people and more interested in writing books then legislation. Oh and his wife the most unpatriotic first lady the country will ever see. Then there's his pastor (former) oh yeah and his and elitist. He's willing to sit and have coffee with terrorist and has more star power than Britney, Paris, Angelina Jolie, and Beyonce combined. He also wants to give up in Iraq and allow the terrorist to win.

McCain on the other hand is well the second coming of G-Dubb only out of touch on the issue that really matter because he's old. Who's nominated a soccer mom with a pregnant unwed teen daughter that he failed to vet as his VP. He's lost his barring. He's a liar. A flip-flopper and unsupportive of change. He's a career politician who only has the best interest of the top 1-5% of Americans at heart. He doesn't care about the environment and will do almost anything to exploit his service in the arm forces and his POW status. He was to keep the US in Iraq for 100 years and wants to bomb Iran too.

Americans pick the "lesser of the two evils" if you can?

abe_froman
09-04-2008, 02:08 AM
what did i think? pathetic

like they keep going to the same well over and over,its the same speech they've been giving for over the past 30 years.what,no new ideas?,nothing new to say?,nothing relevant?

Padres Son
09-04-2008, 03:00 AM
I'm sure the people who already liked Palin like her even more now. But I think she really alienated the undecideds and indies. Her speech sounded like it was written by a bitter, b-rate comic.

I didn't hear anything about what they plan to do if they win the office. Nothing about an economic plan, nothing about an immigration policy, nothing about a plan for the military, nothing about Iran, Russia, or Iraq, nothing about social issues... but plenty of stupid jokes about community organizers and how inexperienced Obama is.

In_Ned_I_Trust
09-04-2008, 03:30 AM
Tell me what she said against obama that wasn't true?

He is a "Community Organizer" its on his resume
He never has drafted a single legislation
He has wrote 2 books
He has never governed anything
He will raise your taxes
He will expand Govt
He is inexperienced


I missed the rest of the "vicious attacks" but the bs this woman and her family have been through in the media this week she earned it.

BTW you O-Bots prove those points wrong, I know your just going to say

'Oh Yeah well Palin hasn't done this..."

Support your candidate he has less executive experience than our VP candidate. Lemme hear it? and as far as skeletons in the closet you really don't want to open that book. NO SPIN just facts. Like Sarah gave tonight.

In_Ned_I_Trust
09-04-2008, 03:39 AM
This was a mean spirited, childish and frankly predictable from a 20 month governor speech. Palin just lost most moderates, independents, and people searching for a higher level of political discourse. She showed her true colors tonight. The GOP is swinging, biting, kicking, and screaming because their backed into a corner while they get outclassed by the Dems. Unfortunately it may work anyways because we live in a country where class has become a dirty word.

Obama was a SENATOR for 15 months before launching his campaign via Oprah whats your point?

Biden lied in his speech Palin did not, I won't even get into Obama's lies since we are not discussing PRESIDENTIAL candidates.

Look at this week with the media, and the dnc the "More of the same" BS any moderate republican can tell you McCain is NO George Bush. Besides 70% of republicans believe Bush has done a good job. You are being spoon fed LIES by the dnc they are manipulating you and most of you are biting for it hook line and sinker. I know I won't change any minds here but I cannot believe the propaganda machine for Obama.

DenButsu
09-04-2008, 04:41 AM
Biden lied in his speech Palin did not

Sure she did. She lied about the bridge to nowhere - again, as she did in her speech when McCain announced her as his selection. She also badly misrepresented herself as a reformer when in fact she's been THE SINGLE biggest beggar of pork from Washington (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_earmarks) per person (via the indicted Ted Stevens) of any governor in the current budget year.



But that, to me, is all kind of beside the point.

I think that this was a highly effective speech if the Republicans wanted to be no more ambitious than appealing to and culling support from within the base. I can totally understand why right wingers love it - it was aimed squarely at pushing all the right buttons for them. And on that level, it was very well executed, and I think the enthusiasm in the room was more than genuine.

But I think it will have alienated independent voters and conservative democrats. It was so divisive - it was almost a punctuation mark to the theme in Obama's speech about how he and the Dems want to bring the country together while the Republicans are still embroiled in the same old partisanship that divides us.

All he really has to say is, "See?"

Big oversimplification, I know, but I think there's some truth in that nutshell.


Some of those attacks should come back to haunt her. I think she really overreached with the mockery of Obama's experience and the "teaching them a lesson" about what it means to be the mayor of a small town. The commercial almost writes itself: Video clip of her saying, "let me explain to them what the job involves" cuts to video clip of her saying, "What is it exactly that the VP does every day?" Also "community organizer"... I saw one comment somewhere where someone said, "Let's see, who else did that? Um, Susan B. Anthony, MLK Jr., Ghandi, Cesar Chavez, etc., etc...."

Who knows? Maybe that's intentional and they're trying to bait the Obama camp into a dirty flame war - the kind of territory where they'd have the upper hand.


I think, fwiw, that she probably has upstaged McCain, too. There's the other thread about this, but I'll say my answer here: I liked Biden's speech more (and yeah, I'm biased), but I think her speech will be remembered more than his. More hype, more historical significance (1st female Republican VP nominee), stronger words spoken.

But after both conventions are over, people will remember Obama's and forget Biden's speech, but people will forget McCain's but remember Palin's speech. I'm totally guessing about that, of course, since McCain hasn't spoken yet. But I think it's a likely outcome. And I think I'd rather have the most powerful splash coming from the top of the ticket.

nascar10294
09-04-2008, 06:23 AM
Gov. Palin speech last night was spectacular. She was firing up with conservitive base, which is all you need to win. What Sara did last night, is what Reagan did in '80. Its what Bush did in '88 and what the Republican Congress did in '94, but it isn't what Bob Dole did in '96. Once she can get this base fired up, Sen. McCain can win the election.

Anyone that says last nights speech wasn't good, is just being ignorant. If you listened too the crowd, they were really excited. She introudced herself to the country. She showed the Republicans who the attack dog is. She told us how she has more expeirnce than the Democratic ticket combined. I think if you watched the speech in anytown, USA, you can really relate to her. But I'm not afraid to admit, when a Dem has a good speech. Bill Clinton had the best speech at the DNC, and Sen. Obama's was eh. But saying Gov. Palin's speech wasn't good, is just bein iggnorant.

FearAD
09-04-2008, 07:36 AM
Exactly when did that take place?

At the end when they both stood on stage.

sboyajian
09-04-2008, 07:49 AM
I still left the speech unimpressed with her tactics, feel like she attempted to "brainwash me" with specific hot topic words and associations between certain industries and nationalities and her family, and overall felt she, a person I expected to be very sincere, had very little heart in it.

bbsmets
09-04-2008, 08:50 AM
I personally think she did a fantastic job.

Did she attack Obama and Biden? You bet your ***. However, anyone criticizing her for that obviously did not listen to Biden's attacks on McCain last week. His attacks were MUCH worse than anything Palin had to say.

As for her poo pooing of community work, I don;t think that she was blowing that off as much as contrasting the importance of "community" leadership over actual executive experience, both as a mayor and governor. The Obama/Biden campaign is hammering her lack of experience, hoping to gloss over Obama's glaring lack of real accomplishments anywhere. He basically has been doing nothing but stumping for higher office for a decade and a half now. It's fair to call him on that.

I support no one, just making observations.

DenButsu
09-04-2008, 09:10 AM
I still left the speech unimpressed with her tactics, feel like she attempted to "brainwash me" with specific hot topic words and associations between certain industries and nationalities and her family, and overall felt she, a person I expected to be very sincere, had very little heart in it.


Putting Words in Palin's Mouth

There was a flutter of attention when McCain campaign manager Rick Davis told a group of Post reporters and editors yesterday that his team was having to rework the vice presidential acceptance speech because the original draft, prepared before Gov. Sarah Palin was chosen, was too "masculine." While we all wondered to ourselves what might make a speech masculine or feminine, no one batted an eye at the underlying revelation: that the campaign was writing the nominee's speech before knowing who the nominee would be.

Never mind the prehistoric days when a politician might be expected to write his or her own words; speechwriters have been around since long before television. But traditionally their job was to channel their bosses' thoughts and ideas into poetry, or at least comprehensible English. Nowadays, apparently it's naive to expect a speech even to reveal something of the essential views or character of the speaker.washingtonpost (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/putting_words_in_palins_mouth.html)

ari1013
09-04-2008, 10:01 AM
thanks DB. that makes sense -- now I see why some of the speech didn't really seem to feel that natural to her.

KingJamsI
09-04-2008, 10:35 AM
Tell me what she said against obama that wasn't true?

He is a "Community Organizer" its on his resume
He never has drafted a single legislation
He has wrote 2 books
He has never governed anything
He will raise your taxes
He will expand Govt
He is inexperienced


I missed the rest of the "vicious attacks" but the bs this woman and her family have been through in the media this week she earned it.

BTW you O-Bots prove those points wrong, I know your just going to say

'Oh Yeah well Palin hasn't done this..."

Support your candidate he has less executive experience than our VP candidate. Lemme hear it? and as far as skeletons in the closet you really don't want to open that book. NO SPIN just facts. Like Sarah gave tonight.

your VP has more executive experience than YOUR CANDIDATE, So does the mayor of my town... he's a member of the green party and he smokes pot, drinks at college parties, and sleeps with lots of young girls. Lets run him for president, after all he presides over a larger constutuency than Sarah Palen did as mayor of "anonymous white hick hamlet", AK. Executive experience means nothing, see Bush, George W.

Bills Written by Barack Obama - Hope Act, The Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006, The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act, The 2007 Government Ethics Bill, The “Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act, S116 - Summer Learning demonstration project to provide summer learning grants and encourage new teaching methods, Obama's Global Poverty Act of 2007.

I Could go on because he has written 890. I can see how you could confuse 890 with 0.... their very close. They would in fact be the same if not for that pesky 8 and 9 out front. :(

According to the American Center for Tax policy, Barack Obama will lower my taxes, and lower them more than McCain would. Same goes for you actually unless you make more than 225k a year.

By the time Obama takes office, he will have 12 years in elected state and national office under his belt. Compare that with- Abraham Lincoln (10 years), Jimmy Carter (10 Years), Ronald Reagan (8 Years), George W. Bush (6 years), Hillary Rodham Clinton (8 Years) (although she wont be taking office), and John F. Kennedy (14 years).

I know, I know. The truth hurts.

Padres Son
09-04-2008, 10:39 AM
After having some time to process it, I think the republicans missed a big opportunity last night. Palin clearly was not chosen for her experience or her political clout. Let's be honest, she was chosen because she's a woman and could help swing some progressives, indies, and women over to the McCain camp. So, why didn't her speech reach out more (or at all) to independent and undecided voters? Why didn't her speech appeal to independent women and Hillary supporters?

Her speech really whipped the crowd into a frenzy, yes... but it seems like she may have immediately alienated a huge part of the target that she was brought on to woo. Her pittbull attacks are not going to help get progressives, indies, and women over in her corner.

dbroncos78087
09-04-2008, 11:00 AM
when I stood up to the special interests, the lobbyists, big oil companies, and the good-ol' boys network.

Reading through her speech i notice this quote (above) and i thought she was for Oil Drilling in her own state, and in, Wildlife reserves no less. Is that true? If so than that statement is a lie.

SmthBluCitrus
09-04-2008, 11:02 AM
Reading through her speech i notice this quote (above) and i thought she was for Oil Drilling in her own state, and in, Wildlife reserves no less. Is that true? If so than that statement is a lie.

Yes, it is true. She favors drilling in on Alaska's north shore.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 11:08 AM
washingtonpost (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/putting_words_in_palins_mouth.html)

What you mean politicians don't write their own speeches? Come on now I know your smarter than that. Every single campaign for high public office comes with speech writers. Do you really believe Obama sat down and wrote his own speech? I highly doubt it, he probably had input in to what he wanted to say but a speech writer wrote that speech not him just as the rest of the article suggests. I find it almost laughable that they are trying to belittle the speech because she didn't write it. There are plenty of things they should be able to come back at her with. But this just isn't one of them.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 11:18 AM
Tell me what she said against obama that wasn't true?

He is a "Community Organizer" its on his resume
He never has drafted a single legislation
He has wrote 2 books
He has never governed anything
He will raise your taxes
He will expand Govt
He is inexperienced


I missed the rest of the "vicious attacks" but the bs this woman and her family have been through in the media this week she earned it.

BTW you O-Bots prove those points wrong, I know your just going to say

'Oh Yeah well Palin hasn't done this..."

Support your candidate he has less executive experience than our VP candidate. Lemme hear it? and as far as skeletons in the closet you really don't want to open that book. NO SPIN just facts. Like Sarah gave tonight.

he has authored legislation, this information is readily available, do some reasearch
he won't raise taxes for 90% of americans, he will in fact lower them for 90%, even more than mccain will. This information is also readily available, do some research:D

CuseDude87
09-04-2008, 11:18 AM
After having some time to process it, I think the republicans missed a big opportunity last night. Palin clearly was not chosen for her experience or her political clout. Let's be honest, she was chosen because she's a woman and could help swing some progressives, indies, and women over to the McCain camp. So, why didn't her speech reach out more (or at all) to independent and undecided voters? Why didn't her speech appeal to independent women and Hillary supporters?

Her speech really whipped the crowd into a frenzy, yes... but it seems like she may have immediately alienated a huge part of the target that she was brought on to woo. Her pittbull attacks are not going to help get progressives, indies, and women over in her corner.

I believe the 'Pubs felt they had to first introduce Palin as a traditional conservative Republican to their own party members before moving on to the huge chunk of independents, progressives, and women voters.

Remember, before her selection a lot of 'Pubs were so-so on McCain's nomination. After Palin's selection, conservatives felt promise but needed to know she would take it to the Dems (no matter how dirty and personal attack-based it was).

HOWE do i do it
09-04-2008, 11:19 AM
This was posted in another thread. The Dems better be mindful of this and also of belittling Palin ...



http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/09/03/brian-kalt-democrats-attack-palin-at-their-peril.aspx

Yeah, middle America is huge. Thats how GB won vs. Kerry.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 11:20 AM
I personally think she did a fantastic job.

Did she attack Obama and Biden? You bet your ***. However, anyone criticizing her for that obviously did not listen to Biden's attacks on McCain last week. His attacks were MUCH worse than anything Palin had to say.

As for her poo pooing of community work, I don;t think that she was blowing that off as much as contrasting the importance of "community" leadership over actual executive experience, both as a mayor and governor. The Obama/Biden campaign is hammering her lack of experience, hoping to gloss over Obama's glaring lack of real accomplishments anywhere. He basically has been doing nothing but stumping for higher office for a decade and a half now. It's fair to call him on that.

I support no one, just making observations.

comparing a part time mayor's job to a community organizer working for the people full time is laughable:D

DenButsu
09-04-2008, 11:22 AM
What you mean politicians don't write their own speeches? Come on now I know your smarter than that. Every single campaign for high public office comes with speech writers. Do you really believe Obama sat down and wrote his own speech? I highly doubt it, he probably had input in to what he wanted to say but a speech writer wrote that speech not him just as the rest of the article suggests. I find it almost laughable that they are trying to belittle the speech because she didn't write it. There are plenty of things they should be able to come back at her with. But this just isn't one of them.

Did you actually read what I posted?

They started writing the speech for HIM - oops - HER - before McCain had even made his decision! They had to edit it to make it less masculine because it was originally drafted to be delivered by a man.

And yes, Obama uses speechwriters, of course.

And his working relationship with them is well documented (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html?_r=1&ei=5090&en=bb179297e5f61acb&ex=1358485200&oref=login&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print):


Mr. Favreau, or Favs, as everyone calls him, looks every bit his age, with a baby face and closely shorn stubble. And he leads a team of two other young speechwriters: 26-year-old Adam Frankel, who worked with John F. Kennedy’s adviser and speechwriter Theodore C. Sorensen on his memoirs, and Ben Rhodes, who, at 30, calls himself the “elder statesman” of the group and who helped write the Iraq Study Group report as an assistant to Lee H. Hamilton.

Together they are working for a politician who not only is known for his speaking ability but also wrote two best-selling books and gave the much-lauded keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.

“You’re like Ted Williams’s batting coach,” Mr. Favreau said.

But even Ted Williams needed a little help with his swing.

“Barack trusts him,” said David Axelrod, Mr. Obama’s chief campaign strategist. “And Barack doesn’t trust too many folks with that — the notion of surrendering that much authority over his own words.”

When he first met Mr. Obama, Mr. Favreau was 23, a recent graduate of the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass., near where he grew up. Mr. Obama was rehearsing his 2004 convention speech backstage, when Mr. Favreau, then a member of John Kerry’s staff, interrupted him: the senator needed to rewrite a line from his speech to avoid an overlap.

“He kind of looked at me, kind of confused — like, ‘Who is this kid?’ ” Mr. Favreau recalled.

Mr. Obama became his boss the following year. Mr. Favreau had risen to a job as a speechwriter on the Kerry campaign, but by then was unemployed. He was, he said, “broke, taking advantage of all the happy-hour specials I could find in Washington.”

Robert Gibbs, Mr. Obama’s communications director, had known Mr. Favreau during the Kerry campaign, and recommended him as a writer.

Life was relatively quiet then, and Mr. Obama and Mr. Favreau had some time to hang out. When Mr. Obama’s White Sox swept Mr. Favreau’s beloved Red Sox three games to none in their American League 2005 division series, the senator walked over to his speechwriter’s desk with a little broom and started sweeping it off.

Mr. Favreau also used this time to master Mr. Obama’s voice. He took down almost everything the senator said and absorbed it. Now, he said, when he sits down to write, he just channels Mr. Obama — his ideas, his sentences, his phrases.


There's a massive difference between that and how Palin's acceptance speech was drafted.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 11:22 AM
After having some time to process it, I think the republicans missed a big opportunity last night. Palin clearly was not chosen for her experience or her political clout. Let's be honest, she was chosen because she's a woman and could help swing some progressives, indies, and women over to the McCain camp. So, why didn't her speech reach out more (or at all) to independent and undecided voters? Why didn't her speech appeal to independent women and Hillary supporters?

Her speech really whipped the crowd into a frenzy, yes... but it seems like she may have immediately alienated a huge part of the target that she was brought on to woo. Her pittbull attacks are not going to help get progressives, indies, and women over in her corner.

I couldn't disagree more about why she was chosen. She was chosen to fire up the base, which is exactly what she did. She was chosen because she's a good conservative and also a reformer. So it increased support among the conservative base that has always been wary of McCain. Now that might not have been the best strategy, only time will tell. The woman thing negates the historical aspect of Obama's campaign to a certain extent, and has created a buzz, but she's not going to be going after woman in huge numbers. The Republicans were never going to take a huge chunk of the Hillary vote away, and they aren't trying to. They just need a small portion. They are going after the small town, rural, women who will be big in deciding states like Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Pennsylvania.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 11:24 AM
I dont agree with several of her issues but it hard to say she did not hit a home run last night. As an independent I like her a lot as a person and a American even though I disagree with her on a few issues. I think the media has gone way over the line with her but I dislike the media very much in general. :)

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 11:25 AM
What you mean politicians don't write their own speeches? Come on now I know your smarter than that. Every single campaign for high public office comes with speech writers. Do you really believe Obama sat down and wrote his own speech? I highly doubt it, he probably had input in to what he wanted to say but a speech writer wrote that speech not him just as the rest of the article suggests. I find it almost laughable that they are trying to belittle the speech because she didn't write it. There are plenty of things they should be able to come back at her with. But this just isn't one of them.

he has help, but he writes a lot of his speeches and much of the content. thus his words sound typically inspirational and similar to his books

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 11:26 AM
Reading through her speech i notice this quote (above) and i thought she was for Oil Drilling in her own state, and in, Wildlife reserves no less. Is that true? If so than that statement is a lie.

You are implying, that unless you are completely against drilling, in all forms, than you can't be against special interests?

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 11:28 AM
he has help, but he writes a lot of his speeches and much of the content. thus his words sound typically inspirational and similar to his books

He wrote the 2004 speech himself, but now has speechwriters who help him, namely Jon Favreau.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 11:31 AM
You are implying, that unless you are completely against drilling, in all forms, than you can't be against special interests?

I'm for wind, solar, water, oil, natural gas, and nuclear. I'm also for drilling and against special interest groups of any kind be it for solar, oil, wind, natural gas, or nuclear. :)

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 11:32 AM
I dont agree with several of her issues but it hard to say she did not hit a home run last night. As an independent I like her a lot as a person and a American even though I disagree with her on a few issues. I think the media has gone way over the line with her but I dislike the media very much in general. :)

I think the media, as well as the Obama campaign (wait, is that redundant?) lowered the bar a lot by "attacking" her credentials and talking about how crazy of a pick it was, that she isn't qualified. I think that is the one big risk of having the majority of the media being for one candidate. If people keep hearing one thing (how bad a choice she was) and then see something else (a good speech), I think it does more damage than if you would have just let her do the speech without dismissing her prior to it. I think the same sort of thing happened at saddleback. There was this thought that Obama would be so much better because he's more intelligent or better spoken and what have you, and then everyone leaves blown away by McCain's performance.

It's expected that Obama will kill McCain in a debate, and I think that's a great thing for McCain. If he can hold his own, he essentially wins, because of the lower expectations for him.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 11:33 AM
Did you actually read what I posted?

They started writing the speech for HIM - oops - HER - before McCain had even made his decision! They had to edit it to make it less masculine because it was originally drafted to be delivered by a man.

And yes, Obama uses speechwriters, of course.

And his working relationship with them is well documented (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/fashion/20speechwriter.html?_r=1&ei=5090&en=bb179297e5f61acb&ex=1358485200&oref=login&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print):


There's a massive difference between that and how Palin's acceptance speech was drafted.

Yes I read what you wrote. I just find it kind of funny that this is even a story worth writing. How is Palin going to have a working relationship with any speech writers on the national stage when this is her first trip into it. I just think this is a complete non issue. As I said their are plenty of things Dem's can go after her on and this is what they choose to come out with first? That was really my point that they missed an opportunity to hit back with something that may have actually been meaningful.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 11:33 AM
He wrote the 2004 speech himself, but now has speechwriters who help him, namely Jon Favreau.

Are you saying the actor Jon Farvreau is the one writing his political speech's? Or is it a diffent guy with the same name. Wow I had no idea. I do like the guy as an actor especially in Swingers but I personally do not like to see Hollywood celebrities involved in my politics regardless of who they are or who they are for.

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 11:37 AM
Are you saying the actor Jon Farvreau is the one writing his political speech's? Or is it a diffent guy with the same name. Wow I had no idea. I do like the guy as an actor especially in Swingers but I personally do not like to see Hollywood celebrities involved in my politics regardless of who they are or who they are for.

:laugh2:

No, not the same guy. That would be pretty funny though.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 11:38 AM
:laugh2:

No, not the same guy. That would be pretty funny though.

Oh OK thanks for clearing that up. :)

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 11:38 AM
I'm for wind, solar, water, oil, natural gas, and nuclear. I'm also for drilling and against special interest groups of any kind be it for solar, oil, wind, natural gas, or nuclear. :)

OK George Carlin.

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 11:42 AM
Yes I read what you wrote. I just find it kind of funny that this is even a story worth writing. How is Palin going to have a working relationship with any speech writers on the national stage when this is her first trip into it. I just think this is a complete non issue. As I said their are plenty of things Dem's can go after her on and this is what they choose to come out with first? That was really my point that they missed an opportunity to hit back with something that may have actually been meaningful.

I don't think it's insignificant. This was the speech that was supposed to show the whole world who Sarah Palin was. Finding out it was completed before anyone was chosen just shows how little we know about the "real" Palin still, even as she is being applauded by the conservative base. It was a speech full of attacks that anyone could have read and RNC would have loved it from anyone.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 11:44 AM
What you mean politicians don't write their own speeches? Come on now I know your smarter than that. Every single campaign for high public office comes with speech writers. Do you really believe Obama sat down and wrote his own speech? I highly doubt it, he probably had input in to what he wanted to say but a speech writer wrote that speech not him just as the rest of the article suggests. I find it almost laughable that they are trying to belittle the speech because she didn't write it. There are plenty of things they should be able to come back at her with. But this just isn't one of them.


I couldn't disagree more about why she was chosen. She was chosen to fire up the base, which is exactly what she did. She was chosen because she's a good conservative and also a reformer. So it increased support among the conservative base that has always been wary of McCain. Now that might not have been the best strategy, only time will tell. The woman thing negates the historical aspect of Obama's campaign to a certain extent, and has created a buzz, but she's not going to be going after woman in huge numbers. The Republicans were never going to take a huge chunk of the Hillary vote away, and they aren't trying to. They just need a small portion. They are going after the small town, rural, women who will be big in deciding states like Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Pennsylvania.

I love how she is taking credit for creating a budget surplus that she had nothing to do with:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04alaska.html?hp

Alaksa doesn't even have a state income tax due to the corporate taxes on mining and oil. this has been going on for decades. for her to get up on stage and act like some accounting savior is hilarious:D

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 11:46 AM
I don't think it's insignificant. This was the speech that was supposed to show the whole world who Sarah Palin was. Finding out it was completed before anyone was chosen just shows how little we know about the "real" Palin still, even as she is being applauded by the conservative base. It was a speech full of attacks that anyone could have read and RNC would have loved it from anyone.

So your saying she did not do anything to describe who she was? I think she did an OK job at explaining who she was prior to going on attack. I think the speech was decent at best but do believe she did put out there who she was. But I think I read it earlier in the thread that said this was her explanation of who she was more to the base than anything else. I think the campaign trail will be where she does her work of introducing herself to the rest of the world. Like her or not she is at least going to keep these final 60or so days interesting.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 11:48 AM
I love how she is taking credit for creating a budget surplus that she had nothing to do with:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04alaska.html?hp

Alaksa doesn't even have a state income tax due to the corporate taxes on mining and oil. this has been going on for decades. for her to get up on stage and act like some accounting savior is hilarious:D

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Why not come out with something like this other than oh gee she didn't write her speech.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 11:50 AM
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Why not come out with something like this other than oh gee she didn't write her speech.
I think the issue isn't "oh gee she didn't write her speech." I think the issue is "her speech wasn't written for her"

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 11:51 AM
I love how she is taking credit for creating a budget surplus that she had nothing to do with:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04alaska.html?hp

Alaksa doesn't even have a state income tax due to the corporate taxes on mining and oil. this has been going on for decades. for her to get up on stage and act like some accounting savior is hilarious:D

All states should do away with state income taxes never mind city income taxes. 1 income tax is plenty in my opinion. I live in a state/city where we dont have any state/city income taxes and that is a big selling point for the state in my opinion.

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 11:51 AM
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Why not come out with something like this other than oh gee she didn't write her speech.

Well, hey, we can do that too. :D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 11:53 AM
I think the issue isn't "oh gee she didn't write her speech." I think the issue is "her speech wasn't written for her"

Did they have another hockey mom who has 5 kids, 1 going to Iraq, who was a small town mayor, who helped build a huge natural gass pipeline in Alaska lined up when they wrote the speech? That is a big coincidence. :)

ink
09-04-2008, 11:56 AM
I don't think it's insignificant. This was the speech that was supposed to show the whole world who Sarah Palin was. Finding out it was completed before anyone was chosen just shows how little we know about the "real" Palin still, even as she is being applauded by the conservative base. It was a speech full of attacks that anyone could have read and RNC would have loved it from anyone.

I agree partly. She missed an opportunity to really tell who she was. But she did leave a strong impression last night - as a partisan politician who is very good at political roasts.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 11:58 AM
Did they have another hockey mom who has 5 kids, 1 going to Iraq, who was a small town mayor, who helped build a huge natural gass pipeline in Alaska lined up when they wrote the speech? That is a big coincidence. :)
Den already posted the source saying most of her speech was written before her nomination.

It's not that hard to write a couple biographical paragraphs and stick them in there. They probably had designated spots left open to plug in info about the candidate once they knew who the nominee was.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 11:58 AM
I love how she is taking credit for creating a budget surplus that she had nothing to do with:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04alaska.html?hp

Alaksa doesn't even have a state income tax due to the corporate taxes on mining and oil. this has been going on for decades. for her to get up on stage and act like some accounting savior is hilarious:D

Why did you quote me there?

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 12:06 PM
According to sources close to the McCain campaign, the teleprompter continued scrolling during applause breaks. As a result, half way through the speech, the speech had scrolled significantly from where Governor Palin was in the speech. The malfunction also occurred during Rudy Giuliani's speech, explaining his significant deviations from his speech.

Unfazed, Governor Palin continued, from memory, to deliver her speech without the teleprompter cued to the appropriate point in her speech
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/sep/04/breaking-sarah-palin-winged-her-speech-bec/

Take it for what it's worth but still an interesting subplot to all of this if it is true.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 12:07 PM
Den already posted the source saying most of her speech was written before her nomination.

It's not that hard to write a couple biographical paragraphs and stick them in there. They probably had designated spots left open to plug in info about the candidate once they knew who the nominee was.

So parts MAY HAVE been written (I dont believe the media is unbiased) before she was known and then parts were written about her? Why would this be a problem for anyone but the media? Why would this be so dramatically and meaningfully different than Obama, Biden, or Mccain having speechs written for them?

I listened to the speech with an open mind last night. I thought she did a great job. As I said before I do not agree with her on a multiple issues but I came away very impressed with Mrs Palin. At this point I dont know who I'm voting for but the media (who I cant stand) attacking this lady so unfairly has me leaning much more in her corner.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 12:08 PM
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/sep/04/breaking-sarah-palin-winged-her-speech-bec/

Take it for what it's worth but still an interesting subplot to all of this if it is true.
I would hope that all political public speakers memorize their speeches :shrug:

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 12:10 PM
So parts MAY HAVE been written (I dont believe the media is unbiased) before she was known and then parts were written about her? Why would this be a problem for anyone but the media? Why would this be so dramatically and meaningfully different than Obama, Biden, or Mccain having speechs written for them?

I listened to the speech with an open mind last night. I thought she did a great job. As I said before I do not agree with her on a multiple issues but I came away very impressed with Mrs Palin. At this point I dont know who I'm voting for but the media (who I cant stand) attacking this lady so unfairly has me leaning much more in her corner.

I don't think there's much debate that it was written prior to her choice. And CG put it best, it's not that she didn't write it (few politicians do), but that it wasn't written for her. I think that's pretty meaningful.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 12:11 PM
So parts MAY HAVE been written (I dont believe the media is unbiased) before she was known and then parts were written about her? Why would this be a problem for anyone but the media? Why would this be so dramatically and meaningfully different than Obama, Biden, or Mccain having speechs written for them?

I listened to the speech with an open mind last night. I thought she did a great job. As I said before I do not agree with her on a multiple issues but I came away very impressed with Mrs Palin. At this point I dont know who I'm voting for but the media (who I cant stand) attacking this lady so unfairly has me leaning much more in her corner.
It may not seem like an issue to you, and that's your completely valid opinion. But I just don't like that that speech could've been given to anyone to deliver. Just my opinion. And if you read the transcript of her speech, it's pretty easy to see where it was probably marked [insert bio here] and [insert changes made in office here]. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26535811/

Also, I don't think the media is attacking her unfairly. She hasn't even been the VP nom for a week, and barely anyone even knew she existed until Friday. It's not "attacking her unfairly," it's "finding all the info they can as fast as they can."

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 12:12 PM
I listened to the speech with an open mind last night. I thought she did a great job. As I said before I do not agree with her on a multiple issues but I came away very impressed with Mrs Palin. At this point I dont know who I'm voting for but the media (who I cant stand) attacking this lady so unfairly has me leaning much more in her corner.

Just curious, but did you feel that way about Hilary as well?

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 12:12 PM
I would hope that all political public speakers memorize their speeches :shrug:

This is the rest of the quote of the article that I didn't feel brought anything to the discussion. But again take it for what it is worth because I don't know what speech they are referring.


Contrast this to Barack Obama who, when last his teleprompter malfunctioned, was left stuttering before a crowd unable to advance his speech until the problem was resolved.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 12:13 PM
This is the rest of the quote of the article that I didn't feel brought anything to the discussion. But again take it for what it is worth because I don't know what speech they are referring.
Where's footage of that?

Sorry, but with a source like redstate.com, I've gotta take everything with a grain of salt. (not a knock against you using it as a source - like you said, take it for what it's worth)

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 12:15 PM
Just curious, but did you feel that way about Hilary as well?

I don't think you can compare Hillary and Sarah. Did the media go after Hillary? You bet your *** they did but in a different way. They never went after Chelsea with the voracity that they are going after the story on Bristol. Hillary has plenty of public policies/statements that they could go after.

PunkShizzle
09-04-2008, 12:19 PM
I don't think you can compare Hillary and Sarah. Did the media go after Hillary? You bet your *** they did but in a different way. They never went after Chelsea with the voracity that they are going after the story on Bristol. Hillary has plenty of public policies/statements that they could go after.

This is my own opinion, but it's not as though Chelsea did as much to discuss. Both are being treated harshly, but to say that only Palin's is "unfair," is just biased.

Also, I do believe the Bristol debacle is fair game. Not for her own actions, but I think Palin's respoonse to the situation deserves all the criticism in the world. She claims Bristol made this "decision" on her own and her family is there to support her. Meanwhile, Palin wants to take that decision away, even if they've been raped.

SmthBluCitrus
09-04-2008, 12:20 PM
I don't think you can compare Hillary and Sarah. Did the media go after Hillary? You bet your *** they did but in a different way. They never went after Chelsea with the voracity that they are going after the story on Bristol. Hillary has plenty of public policies/statements that they could go after.

The media has certainly gone after Chelsea Clinton. But, you're right, it's difficult to compare the way they've gone after Sarah and the way they've gone after Hillary.

Hillary made it easier for Sarah Palin to be under the microscope. She already had to go through the "can women do this" rhetoric that we're not likely to see anybody take against Ms. Palin. Sure, she'll get the "can SHE do this." But, with great reason -- she's a virtual unknown on the national stage. Hillary has been in the national spotlight for the better part of two decades. And, she's been around and involved the shaping of policy. It's difficult for them to go after Palin the same way ... she doesn't have experience.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 12:42 PM
The media has certainly gone after Chelsea Clinton. But, you're right, it's difficult to compare the way they've gone after Sarah and the way they've gone after Hillary.

Hillary made it easier for Sarah Palin to be under the microscope. She already had to go through the "can women do this" rhetoric that we're not likely to see anybody take against Ms. Palin. Sure, she'll get the "can SHE do this." But, with great reason -- she's a virtual unknown on the national stage. Hillary has been in the national spotlight for the better part of two decades. And, she's been around and involved the shaping of policy. It's difficult for them to go after Palin the same way ... she doesn't have experience.

If you are talking about this election cycle, then I think criticism of Chelsea, which I didn't hear much of, is fair game. Why? Because Chelsea put herself out there to make speeches and be a surrogate for her mother. Just like Michelle Obama did. Bristol Palin isn't out there traveling the country speaking (I know she's travelling to go on stage, but she's not addressing crowds) on behalf of her mother, so that's where I draw the line.

Punk, you say that going after Bristol is fair game, then wouldn't going after Obama's half-brother be fair game as well? Obama is claiming he is going to help the poor, but he has a half-brother living on $1 a month in Kenya. How's he going to help the poor in our country when he can't help the poor in his own family? (Note: I believe both are completely irrelevant to any discussion)

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 12:49 PM
The media has certainly gone after Chelsea Clinton. But, you're right, it's difficult to compare the way they've gone after Sarah and the way they've gone after Hillary.

Hillary made it easier for Sarah Palin to be under the microscope. She already had to go through the "can women do this" rhetoric that we're not likely to see anybody take against Ms. Palin. Sure, she'll get the "can SHE do this." But, with great reason -- she's a virtual unknown on the national stage. Hillary has been in the national spotlight for the better part of two decades. And, she's been around and involved the shaping of policy. It's difficult for them to go after Palin the same way ... she doesn't have experience.

So that makes going after her family OK? I have no problem with the media ripping her policies to shreds. I do have a problem of them going after the family and you can go after her policies while leaving the family out of it.

ink
09-04-2008, 12:55 PM
So that makes going after her family OK? I have no problem with the media ripping her policies to shreds. I do have a problem of them going after the family and you can go after her policies while leaving the family out of it.

So does Obama, for the record.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 12:59 PM
Where's footage of that?

Sorry, but with a source like redstate.com, I've gotta take everything with a grain of salt. (not a knock against you using it as a source - like you said, take it for what it's worth)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d667NAI9HIM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/obama-gaffe.html

This may be what they are talking about.

SmthBluCitrus
09-04-2008, 01:00 PM
If you are talking about this election cycle, then I think criticism of Chelsea, which I didn't hear much of, is fair game. Why? Because Chelsea put herself out there to make speeches and be a surrogate for her mother. Just like Michelle Obama did.

I'll agree. My point was that Chelsea Clinton has taken some sort of criticism (whether it was her looks, her boyfriend, her family life, etc ...) for most of her life (since '92).

No, Chelsea put herself out there this cycle and she's fair game. Ultimately, I believe she has a future in politics -- so it's just something she's going to have to get used to.

And, I'm not condoning all the talk about Bristol. However, there is something that concerns her that is at issue. She's soon to be a teenage mother coming out of an abstinence only family, and her mother cut benefits on teen mothers in the state of Alaska by over 20%. The point it, it doesn't matter if abstinence only is taught, things still happen.


So that makes going after her family OK? I have no problem with the media ripping her policies to shreds. I do have a problem of them going after the family and you can go after her policies while leaving the family out of it.

When did I say that going after her family was OK? But, when you enter a public forum -- especially on the national level -- you have to expect that. Don't act like she's the first politician in America to have her families dirty laundry aired out for all to view.

It's not that I agree with it, but there is different criteria when it comes to the family lifestyle of those in the public eye. It's called sensationalism.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 01:03 PM
So does Obama, for the record.

I understand that part. Was more referring to the post on whether I had a problem on the way the media went after Hillary as well.

ink
09-04-2008, 01:04 PM
I'll agree. My point was that Chelsea Clinton has taken some sort of criticism (whether it was her looks, her boyfriend, her family life, etc ...) for most of her life (since '92).

John McCain has not been reminded once (to my knowledge) of his crude joke about Chelsea Clinton in this whole campaign. I'm surprised that women don't reject the guy for that joke alone. But it hardly ever gets mentioned.


It's called sensationalism.

That's the sum total of it. It's so lame to say that the media and Dems are attacking Palin's family. The media is just in a feeding frenzy and that has no political allegiance at all.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 01:08 PM
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Why not come out with something like this other than oh gee she didn't write her speech.

that's what I do, stick to facts.:D

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 01:09 PM
When did I say that going after her family was OK? But, when you enter a public forum -- especially on the national level -- you have to expect that. Don't act like she's the first politician in America to have her families dirty laundry aired out for all to view.

It's not that I agree with it, but there is different criteria when it comes to the family lifestyle of those in the public eye. It's called sensationalism.

I understand what you meant but still think it is underhanded for the media to go after her family. She has her public policy that could easily be gone after but they chose the family instead. I understand this is just politics as usual my response was tailored to the last sentence in your comment.


And, she's been around and involved the shaping of policy. It's difficult for them to go after Palin the same way ... she doesn't have experience.

My point then and now is that she has plenty of her positions to blast away at that are already out prior to them going after her family. I have a feeling if this keeps up it will have a negative effect on the polls which at this point really doesn't matter all that much. But will matter enough that they will have to go a different route with their attacks on her.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 01:11 PM
that's what I do, stick to facts.:D

Or twist them to your point of view. :p

dbroncos78087
09-04-2008, 01:13 PM
You are implying, that unless you are completely against drilling, in all forms, than you can't be against special interests?

Well the special interests part got caught in my quote. I was primarily referring to the "Big Oil" part of it.

ink
09-04-2008, 01:14 PM
I understand what you meant but still think it is underhanded for the media to go after her family. She has her public policy that could easily be gone after but they chose the family instead. I understand this is just politics as usual my response was tailored to the last sentence in your comment.



My point then and now is that she has plenty of her positions to blast away at that are already out prior to them going after her family. I have a feeling if this keeps up it will have a negative effect on the polls which at this point really doesn't matter all that much. But will matter enough that they will have to go a different route with their attacks on her.

Two things: the media HAS been pointing out the Palin hypocracies. They're just not as *exhilirating* as gossip about teen pregnancy, and the news doesn't spread as fast. It's not as salacious. So it will be up to the Obama campaign to point out how her actions have contradicted her words.

The other thing is that Palin's personal and political life intersect with this pregnancy. She does stand for some pretty stonehenge ideas about abstinence vs. sex education. So her own political views and policies have been contradicted by her own family's behaviour. I'd say that people are laying off this point pretty well, but clearly on this one Sarah Palin, politician, was dead wrong.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 01:18 PM
Or twist them to your point of view. :p

Show me one instance where I twisted a fact.:speechless:

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 01:23 PM
The other thing is that Palin's personal and political life intersect with this pregnancy. She does stand for some pretty stonehenge ideas about abstinence vs. sex education. So her own political views and policies have been contradicted by her own family's behaviour. I'd say that people are laying off this point pretty well, but clearly on this one Sarah Palin, politician, was dead wrong.

Obviously, she is in the minority when she says only abstance should be taught. I'm not going to argue thats the right way to go.

However, as a parent, would I be "dead wrong" in my posistion to be for drug prevention education and then my kide ends up using anyways? I'm not sure your last comment is fair.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 01:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d667NAI9HIM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/obama-gaffe.html

This may be what they are talking about.
I doubt it. Looks like that's him doing a Q&A session.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 01:30 PM
John McCain has not been reminded once (to my knowledge) of his crude joke about Chelsea Clinton in this whole campaign. I'm surprised that women don't reject the guy for that joke alone. But it hardly ever gets mentioned.



That's the sum total of it. It's so lame to say that the media and Dems are attacking Palin's family. The media is just in a feeding frenzy and that has no political allegiance at all.

John Mccain was wrong to make that joke about Chelsea but the Media has absolutely no right to go after Paulins daughter, son or husband.

Actually I think the media's political financial contributions are like 100-1 for Dems/Obama. So it would be short sighted not to acknowledge their obvious bias.
http://www.ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=301702713742569

Take for example a well known newspaper choosing to run a story of Palins husbands 22 year old dui. Is Palins husband running? Why is that an issue but that same newspaper never mentions Obama's (who actually is running) admitted cocaine use?

I'm an independent (I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative) and still do not know for sure who I will vote for but the medias obvious bias is making me lean the other way because I cant stand the media.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 01:33 PM
John Mccain was wrong to make that joke about Chelsea but the Media has absolutely no right to go after Paulins daughter, son or husband.

Actually I think the media's political financial contributions are like 100-1 for Dems/Obama. So it would be short sighted not to acknowledge their obvious bias.
http://www.ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=301702713742569

Take for example a well known newspaper choosing to run a story of Palins husbands 22 year old dui. Is Palins husband running? Why is that an issue but that same newspaper never mentions Obama's (who actually is running) admitted cocaine use?

I'm an independent (I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative) and still do not know for sure who I will vote for but the medias obvious bias is making me lean the other way because I cant stand the media.
Like I said, Palin's been the nominee for less than a week. They're just trying to find anything and everything they can. It'll die down.

Right now it's like: "She's a member of the NRA! Don't care? Okay, her husband had a DUI! Don't care? Okay, her daughter is pregnant!" etc etc etc

ink
09-04-2008, 01:34 PM
Obviously, she is in the minority when she says only abstance should be taught. I'm not going to argue thats the right way to go.

However, as a parent, would I be "dead wrong" in my posistion to be for drug prevention education and then he ends up using anyways? I'm not sure your last comment is fair.

Well, at least education gives them a fighting chance.

If they don't know a damn thing the parents are leaving their kids open to anything - pregnancy, STD's, even abuse. I honestly don't get what's wrong with your kids being educated about life issues that basic.

Anyway, not to belabor the point ... there are much bigger contradictions the Dems should be able to point out about this so-called "reformer". It seems to me that sometimes she's a reformer when it's politically expedient. This is one of those times.

guru
09-04-2008, 01:34 PM
Dont know if this is posted already.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 01:34 PM
Like most of you I watched Sarah Palin tonight accept her party’s nomination for Vice-President of the United States. Overall, you take away from the speech what you brought. If you like her, she hit a home run. If you don’t like her she took cheap shots.

Regardless this was an address geared primarily toward the GOP base and it worked. They are motivated, excited and Sarah Palin is their hero. For the left, she is a villain and this race is going to get real ugly real quick.

And for the record, picking a fight with the press is always good with party loyalists, but you are still going to have to make the rounds and there is nothing worse than antagonizing people who buy ink by the barrel and own broadcast towers.

At the end of the day, this race will come down to ground game and getting out the vote. I think the GOP finally has a fighting chance at winning the race. I’ll be interested to see the polling data in the next few days, particularly the energy and enthusiasm of both parties about their nominees.
http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2008/09/palin_on_parade.html#comments

This is from a local political blog I like to read. I think it sums up the speech very well.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 01:35 PM
John Mccain was wrong to make that joke about Chelsea but the Media has absolutely no right to go after Paulins daughter, son or husband.

Actually I think the media's political financial contributions are like 100-1 for Dems/Obama. So it would be short sighted not to acknowledge their obvious bias.

Take for example a well known newspaper choosing to run a story of Palins husbands 22 year old dui. Is Palins husband running? Why is that an issue but that same newspaper never mentions Obama's (who actually is running) admitted cocaine use?

I'm an independent (I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative) and still do not know for sure who I will vote for but the medias obvious bias is making me lean the other way because I cant stand the media.

the media's political financial contributions? Maybe journalists independently donating, but not media outlets. I'm not sure what you are referring to or where you got any of those numbers. The closest I found was this:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/07/media-politics.html

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 01:37 PM
http://www.indianabarrister.com/archives/2008/09/palin_on_parade.html#comments

This is from a local political blog I like to read. I think it sums up the speech very well.
Overall, you take away from the speech what you brought.

Exactly.

GHGHCP
09-04-2008, 01:38 PM
Obviously, she is in the minority when she says only abstance should be taught. I'm not going to argue thats the right way to go.

However, as a parent, would I be "dead wrong" in my posistion to be for drug prevention education and then he ends up using anyways? I'm not sure your last comment is fair.

As a parent if you told your kid to not do drugs and show them how and why it's bad for them in a mature manner then you can't be faulted if your kid ends up doing them anyway.

The problem here is teaching abstinence only is not the correct way period and is a disservice to your child by leaving out so much information your child could use to make a better choice for themselves.

It's kinda like telling your kid not to do drugs as it will support terrorism.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 01:40 PM
the media's political financial contributions? Maybe journalists independently donating, but not media outlets. I'm not sure what you are referring to or where you got any of those numbers. The closest I found was this:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/07/media-politics.html


I would not care if it was media outlets or "journalists" themselves but this is the "journalists" themselves.

http://www.ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=301702713742569

gcoll
09-04-2008, 01:41 PM
The problem here is teaching abstinence only is not the correct way period and is a disservice to your child by leaving out so much information your child could use to make a better choice for themselves.
Fine. But who's business is that?


It's kinda like telling your kid not to do drugs as it will support terrorism.
No.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 01:46 PM
Like I said, Palin's been the nominee for less than a week. They're just trying to find anything and everything they can. It'll die down.

Right now it's like: "She's a member of the NRA! Don't care? Okay, her husband had a DUI! Don't care? Okay, her daughter is pregnant!" etc etc etc

I dont see that as an excuse for the media going way over the line in a very hypocritical way. Why is the NY Times discussing Todd Palins (he isnt running) 22 year old dui but not discussing Obama's cocaine use?

Why is Sally Quinn asking if Palin should be VP with 5 children but not asking if Obama should be president with 2 young children?

MSNBC drilled Hillary every night while basically acting as Obama's public relations board. Even Ed Rendell said it was embarrassing.

The media is ridiculously biased and it turns independents like myself off big time.

ink
09-04-2008, 01:49 PM
As a parent if you told your kid to not do drugs and show them how and why it's bad for them in a mature manner then you can't be faulted if your kid ends up doing them anyway.

The problem here is teaching abstinence only is not the correct way period and is a disservice to your child by leaving out so much information your child could use to make a better choice for themselves.

It's kinda like telling your kid not to do drugs as it will support terrorism.

I totally agree. And your point about giving them a choice is key.

These are adult issues, so they need to be prepared to make adult decisions. Would anyone here appreciate having information withheld from them before they were to make a major decision?

gcoll
09-04-2008, 01:51 PM
MSNBC drilled Hillary every night while basically acting as Obama's public relations board. Even Ed Rendell said it was embarrassing.
I made note of that when it was going on. Maybe on this board, I don't know.

But during the primary, I actually felt some sympathy for Hillary, which was very unexpected. She was treated unfairly.

ink
09-04-2008, 01:51 PM
Fine. But who's business is that?

Not to dwell on it because Palin is hypocritical on far more significant issues ... but, it's a public issue because she has campaigned on it. She has used it to get votes in an election, so it is an issue.

A small issue, not needed in this election debate IMHO.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 01:54 PM
Overall, you take away from the speech what you brought.

Exactly.

That is exactly what I took from the speech. If your an Obama supporter as has been proven on this board you find many faults with it. If your a McCain supporter you loved it. Both sides are not wrong in their opinion because it is just that an opinion.

GHGHCP
09-04-2008, 01:55 PM
Fine. But who's business is that?


No.

Anyone who enjoys hypocrisy or irony in politics? Anyone who cares about the best msg being sent to the public? Anyone who doesn't want an unneeded drain on the economy? I can go on and on, its anyone's business who cares or not.

How is that not the same as abstinence only? It's the same msg (you don't want your kid to do drugs/have sex) but has BS filler (it supports terror/ cause god says it's wrong).

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 01:59 PM
I made note of that when it was going on. Maybe on this board, I don't know.

But during the primary, I actually felt some sympathy for Hillary, which was very unexpected. She was treated unfairly.

I'm not a Hillary fan. I wanted Obama to beat her BUT when asked about the obvious bias I had to admit to my friend that MSNBC was totally trashing Hillary and in the tank for Obama. I mean it would be totally ridiculous not admit it when they made it so blatantly obvious. It is a real shame and very unfair. I think that is probably why Hillary decided to go to do some interviews on Fox.

gcoll
09-04-2008, 01:59 PM
Not to dwell on it because Palin is hypocritical on far more significant issues ... but, it's a public issue because she has campaigned on it. She has used it to get votes in an election, so it is an issue.

A small issue, not needed in this election debate IMHO.

I meant more about teaching abstinence.


How is that not the same as abstinence only? It's the same msg (you don't want your kid to do drugs/have sex) but has BS filler (it supports terror/ cause god says it's wrong).
Because it's a false analogy. The only connection you make is to say because both are wrong (in your mind) they are the same. They are not the same.

Teaching abstinence only would be like saying "Don't do drugs....at all"

ink
09-04-2008, 02:02 PM
I meant more about teaching abstinence.

Well, then it's not a question of who's business it is. It's education.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-04-2008, 02:03 PM
I meant more about teaching abstinence.


Because it's a false analogy. The only connection you make is to say because both are wrong (in your mind) they are the same. They are not the same.

Teaching abstinence only would be like saying "Don't do drugs....at all"

then why were psa's ran with the do drugs/support terror message?

ink
09-04-2008, 02:04 PM
I think it's more comical than anything.

Photo caption: "Politician takes stand against sex education", to her left, her unwed, pregnant daughter.

gcoll
09-04-2008, 02:06 PM
then why were psa's ran with the do drugs/support terror message?
Because people are stupid?

I don't quite know what you're getting at. The analogy holds, because there were PSAs that made that argument?


I think it's more comical than anything.

Photo caption: "Politician takes stand against sex education", to her left, her unwed, pregnant daughter.
Yes. I see the humor.

But, I still don't see why schools should have a role in the area of sex education.

GHGHCP
09-04-2008, 02:16 PM
Because people are stupid?

I don't quite know what you're getting at. The analogy holds, because there were PSAs that made that argument?


Yes. I see the humor.

But, I still don't see why schools should have a role in the area of sex education.

Because it's another example on how a msg with good intentions but no filler can fall flat.

KingJamsI
09-04-2008, 02:46 PM
John Mccain was wrong to make that joke about Chelsea but the Media has absolutely no right to go after Paulins daughter, son or husband.

Actually I think the media's political financial contributions are like 100-1 for Dems/Obama. So it would be short sighted not to acknowledge their obvious bias.
http://www.ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=301702713742569

Take for example a well known newspaper choosing to run a story of Palins husbands 22 year old dui. Is Palins husband running? Why is that an issue but that same newspaper never mentions Obama's (who actually is running) admitted cocaine use?

I'm an independent (I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative) and still do not know for sure who I will vote for but the medias obvious bias is making me lean the other way because I cant stand the media.

Please. Its just as relevant as Things Michelle Obama had done/said in her past that the right fabricated, twisted and threw tantrums about. What's there to mention about Obama's drug use. He did it. He said he did it. It was a story 18 months ago. He's not the one who just show up in this race a week ago, not even knowing what was expected from him upon beginning. Palin is the newest person the the Media will try to rip her down just like EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON in the race, when their hot, the media ***** on them, Come on man, be real.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 02:53 PM
Please. Its just as relevant as Things Michelle Obama had done/said in her past that the right fabricated, twisted and threw tantrums about. What's there to mention about Obama's drug use. He did it. He said he did it. It was a story 18 months ago. He's not the one who just show up in this race a week ago, not even knowing what was expected from him upon beginning. Palin is the newest person the the Media will try to rip her down just like EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON in the race, when their hot, the media ***** on them, Come on man, be real.

I missed the NY times front page stories on Obamas cocaine use. Please show me a link so I can see that you are right.

I'm not a Republican so your bashing them doesnt bother me. I have only voted for a Repub for President 1 time in my life.

I'm an Independent on Americas side and the media has been extremely biased in my opinion.

CuseDude87
09-04-2008, 03:48 PM
That is exactly what I took from the speech. If your an Obama supporter as has been proven on this board you find many faults with it. If your a McCain supporter you loved it. Both sides are not wrong in their opinion because it is just that an opinion.

The first thing one has to understand about Palin's speech is that she geared it towards Republican voters already in the bag. Anybody who watched her speech and decided to vote for McCain-Palin based on that doesn't understand how politics work.

Secondly, as a left-leaning voter but not entirely sold on Obama, Palin's address to the nation last night reminded me as to why I typically fall to the left. Throughout the entire debacle of Palin's stance on abstinence only and her own teenage daughter becoming pregnant, one should notice that Obama has taken the higher ground and refused to discuss the subject. In response, I expected Palin to acknowledge this in same kind, but I was dumbfounded as to what took place instead. She attacked his personal life (memoirs, life journey) and spared no verbal jabs for things as trivial as the decoration at Invesco Field.

What Palin accomplished last night was assuring Republican voters that McCain made the right choice with his VP pick by attacking the left, but did nothing to show how her career has taught her anything more than to act out with juvenile insults when things don't go your way.


I think it's more comical than anything.

Photo caption: "Politician takes stand against sex education", to her left, her unwed, pregnant daughter.

This is one of many hypocrisies that are already evident within a week of her nomination.


But, I still don't see why schools should have a role in the area of sex education.

In a perfect world, all parents would teach their children the dangers of unprotected sex. But guess what? Many parents don't say a word, and leave their children vulnerable to peer myths and lack of knowledge about things such as STDs and unwanted pregnancy. This is why schools have been told to step in an institute sex education.

Just because you're a biological progenitor, doesn't automatically make you a "parent". In other words, a lot of people could give a damn about their kids, which is why other organizations (schools, Planned Parenthood) have to step in to warn children about the decisions they can make before an unfavorable consequence occurs.

ink
09-04-2008, 04:37 PM
Secondly, as a left-leaning voter but not entirely sold on Obama, Palin's address to the nation last night reminded me as to why I typically fall to the left. Throughout the entire debacle of Palin's stance on abstinence only and her own teenage daughter becoming pregnant, one should notice that Obama has taken the higher ground and refused to discuss the subject. In response, I expected Palin to acknowledge this in same kind, but I was dumbfounded as to what took place instead. She attacked his personal life (memoirs, life journey) and spared no verbal jabs for things as trivial as the decoration at Invesco Field.

Very good point. I was really surprised at that too.


What Palin accomplished last night was assuring Republican voters that McCain made the right choice with his VP pick by attacking the left, but did nothing to show how her career has taught her anything more than to act out with juvenile insults when things don't go your way.

To add to your point, it doesn't seem she has learned much since she first became mayor. In the next few days, we'll hear reports about her habits of sending "termination notices" to people she didn't agree with. Police chief, state troopers, etc. The most recent one to surface is about the town librarian, who Palin asked if books with unfavorable content could be removed from the library shelves. The librarian said that she wouldn't condone banning books. Shortly after that she received a termination notice.

That's juvenile. Sounds like the student's council in my high school more than anything else. And that's how her speech sounded last night too.

CuseDude87
09-04-2008, 04:43 PM
Very good point. I was really surprised at that too.



To add to your point, it doesn't seem she has learned much since she first became mayor. In the next few days, we'll hear reports about her habits of sending "termination notices" to people she didn't agree with. Police chief, state troopers, etc. The most recent one to surface is about the town librarian, who Palin asked if books with unfavorable content could be removed from the library shelves. The librarian said that she wouldn't condone banning books. Shortly after that she received a termination notice.

That's juvenile. Sounds like the student's council in my high school more than anything else. And that's how her speech sounded last night too.

I just read yesterday about her investigation into a state trooper (I think?) who broke off relations with her sister. She was essentially trying to get the trooper fired because he dumped her sis. That's junior high stuff, right there.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 04:43 PM
She attacked his personal life (memoirs, life journey) and spared no verbal jabs for things as trivial as the decoration at Invesco Field.

I was wondering what personal attacks you are refering to? If you are reffering to the community organizing remark, I think that is fair game, as Obama has used this as a part of the experience he brings to the office of presidency and his camp had hit her about being the mayor of a small town.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 04:44 PM
I just read yesterday about her investigation into a state trooper (I think?) who broke off relations with her sister. She was essentially trying to get the trooper fired because he dumped her sis. That's junior high stuff, right there.

First of all that is all allegations. And it is alleged that she tried to get him fired after he threatened to kill her father, after breaking up with her sister.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 04:48 PM
First of all that is all allegations. And it is alleged that she tried to get him fired after he threatened to kill her father, after breaking up with her sister.

Don't forget the fact that he also tasered her son.

ink
09-04-2008, 04:51 PM
I just read yesterday about her investigation into a state trooper (I think?) who broke off relations with her sister. She was essentially trying to get the trooper fired because he dumped her sis. That's junior high stuff, right there.

Here is some background from Time. IMO this is very undistinguished stuff.


Mayor Palin: A Rough Record
Tuesday, Sep. 02, 2008
By NATHAN THORNBURGH / WASILLA, ALASKA

----------

Four years later, she took on her former workout buddy in a race that quickly became contentious. In Stein's view, Palin's main transgression was injecting big-time politics into a small-town local race. "It was always a nonpartisan job," he says. "But with her, the state GOP came in and started affecting the race." While Palin often describes that race as having been a fight against the old boys' club, Stein says she made sure the campaign hinged on issues like gun owners' rights and her opposition to abortion (Stein is pro-choice). "It got to the extent that — I don't remember who it was now — but some national antiabortion outfit sent little pink cards to voters in Wasilla endorsing her," he says.

Vicki Naegele was the managing editor of the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman at the time. "[Stein] figured he was just going to run your average, friendly small-town race," she recalls, "but it turned into something much different than that." Naegele held the same conservative Christian beliefs as Palin but didn't think they had any place in local politics.

"I just thought, That's ridiculous, she should concentrate on roads, not abortion," says Naegele.


But while she may have been a new face, says Naegele, she was no maverick — not yet. "The state party gave her the mechanism to get into that office," says Naegele. "As soon as she was confident enough to brush them off, she did. But she wasn't an outsider to start with. She very much had to kowtow to them."

Governing was no less contentious than campaigning, at least to begin with. Palin ended up dismissing almost all the city department heads who had been loyal to Stein, including a few who had been instrumental in getting her into politics to begin with. Some saw it as a betrayal. Stambaugh, the police chief and a member of Palin's step-aerobics class, filed a lawsuit for wrongful termination, alleging that Palin terminated him in part at the behest of the National Rifle Association, because he had opposed a concealed-gun law that the NRA supported. He eventually lost the suit. The animosity spawned some talk of a recall attempt, but eventually Palin's opponents in the city council opted for a more conciliatory route.

At some point in those fractious first days, Palin told the department heads they needed her permission to talk to reporters. "She put a gag order on those people, something that you'd expect to find in the big city, not here," says Naegele. "She flew in there like a big-city gal, which she's not. It was a strange time, and [the Frontiersman] came out very harshly against her."


Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving "full support" to the mayor.

St. George, however, points out that Palin couldn't have seen everything through an Evangelical lens. She did, he says, notably resist calls to restrict operating hours for the bars in town. And even if faith did play an unusually large role in her decision-making as mayor, it may have only reflected the continued rise of Evangelicalism in the valley, a growth that continues to this day.

"We like to call this the Bible Belt of Alaska," says Cheryl Metiva, head of the local chamber of commerce. Churches proliferate in Wasilla today, and among the largest and most influential is the Wasilla Bible Church, where the Palins worship.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html

I think Sarah Palin's telling some fish stories about being a reformer. She looks more like a rank amateur throwing fits when things don't go her way. Same old same old. Just like Bush, she seems to take great pride in her absolute lack of diplomacy.

CubsGirl
09-04-2008, 04:52 PM
The most recent one to surface is about the town librarian, who Palin asked if books with unfavorable content could be removed from the library shelves. The librarian said that she wouldn't condone banning books. Shortly after that she received a termination notice.

I was going to google "Palin librarian" to check the story out, but then I realized that my search results would consist primarily of this. (http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/20893.jpg)

PUGS1688
09-04-2008, 05:02 PM
I watched this speech last night and I have to say I am really disappointed in my country. People were standing up and clapping for Sarah Palin like she was the end all answer to all of today's problems. She did not address any real issues, and the fact that people were standing up and cheering her on like she was the answer was upsetting! That lady sitting next to Guiliani looked like she was about to cry in joy.
After last night's speech, I am 100% positive I will be voting for an independent. I just can't take the Republicans anymore, and I do not want my taxes raised for a national healthcare to help support the weak. This is a capitalist society, not a socialist one.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 05:03 PM
Here is some background from Time. IMO this is very undistinguished stuff.






http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html

I think Sarah Palin's telling some fish stories about being a reformer. She looks more like a rank amateur throwing fits when things don't go her way. Same old same old. Just like Bush, she seems to take great pride in her absolute lack of diplomacy.

So because of how her initial campaign was run in 1996, she shouldn't be VP?

Let's compare Obama's first campaign when he ran against.... um, well he didn't really run against anyone. He got all 3 of his opponents kicked off the ballot by out “lawyering” them and challenging their signatures.

ink
09-04-2008, 05:07 PM
First of all that is all allegations. And it is alleged that she tried to get him fired after he threatened to kill her father, after breaking up with her sister.

The point is that it's tabloid stuff unbecoming of the office she's seeking.

ink
09-04-2008, 05:09 PM
So because of how her initial campaign was run in 1996, she shouldn't be VP?

Given her speech last night, she doesn't seem to have changed.

b1e9a8r5s
09-04-2008, 05:30 PM
Given her speech last night, she doesn't seem to have changed.

The very article you posted, references how Palin changed once she reached the state level....


"By the time Sarah Palin was entering state politics, the hottest issue in Alaska wasn't gay marriage or even abortion. It was corruption and cronyism. Andrew Halcro, a noted Palin critic who ran against her as an independent in the governor's race, says she knew instinctively that the issues were changing. Plus, he says, her opponents, such as incumbent governor Frank Murkowski, whom she defeated in the primary, were just as hard-right on abortion and guns as she was.

She needed a new political identity to make it to the next level, so ethics reform became her calling card. "She's a very savvy politician," says Halcro. "So wedge issues were not part of the portfolio."

"If anything," he says, "she got tired of answering questions about them." Halcro recalls one debate in October 2006 in which, after repeated questions about her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape or incest, she looked at the moderator with exasperation and asked if they were going to talk about anything besides abortion. It was detracting from her new message: cleaning up the capitol.

Nor has Palin made social issues the cornerstone of her governorship. When a parental consent law was struck down by Alaska's highest court in 2007, Palin called the decision "outrageous" but refused calls from conservatives to remedy the defeat by introducing antiabortion legislation in a session that was supposed to be about drilling rights.

Wearing her faith quietly fits more with Palin's personality, says St. George. "In all the years I've known Sarah and her parents, we never talked about right-to-life or any of that," he says. "She doesn't let those issues get in the way of getting things done for the community."

In the end, her political journey from banner-waving GOP social conservative to maverick reformer may simply be about good timing. It's what former journalist Bill McAllister, who now works for Palin's press staff, used to call "Sarah-dipity" — that uncanny gift of knowing exactly what voters are looking for at a particular moment. And, of course, the political will to give them what they want. "

ink
09-04-2008, 05:35 PM
I was going to google "Palin librarian" to check the story out, but then I realized that my search results would consist primarily of this. (http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/20893.jpg)

hahaha ... :laugh:

ink
09-04-2008, 05:39 PM
The very article you posted, references how Palin changed once she reached the state level....


"By the time Sarah Palin was entering state politics, the hottest issue in Alaska wasn't gay marriage or even abortion. It was corruption and cronyism. Andrew Halcro, a noted Palin critic who ran against her as an independent in the governor's race, says she knew instinctively that the issues were changing. Plus, he says, her opponents, such as incumbent governor Frank Murkowski, whom she defeated in the primary, were just as hard-right on abortion and guns as she was.

She needed a new political identity to make it to the next level, so ethics reform became her calling card. "She's a very savvy politician," says Halcro. "So wedge issues were not part of the portfolio."

"If anything," he says, "she got tired of answering questions about them." Halcro recalls one debate in October 2006 in which, after repeated questions about her opposition to abortion even in cases of rape or incest, she looked at the moderator with exasperation and asked if they were going to talk about anything besides abortion. It was detracting from her new message: cleaning up the capitol.

Nor has Palin made social issues the cornerstone of her governorship. When a parental consent law was struck down by Alaska's highest court in 2007, Palin called the decision "outrageous" but refused calls from conservatives to remedy the defeat by introducing antiabortion legislation in a session that was supposed to be about drilling rights.

Wearing her faith quietly fits more with Palin's personality, says St. George. "In all the years I've known Sarah and her parents, we never talked about right-to-life or any of that," he says. "She doesn't let those issues get in the way of getting things done for the community."

In the end, her political journey from banner-waving GOP social conservative to maverick reformer may simply be about good timing. It's what former journalist Bill McAllister, who now works for Palin's press staff, used to call "Sarah-dipity" — that uncanny gift of knowing exactly what voters are looking for at a particular moment. And, of course, the political will to give them what they want. "

I know. I read that. But she looked partisan, sarcastic and even petty last night. That might be endearing to her base, but it's off-putting after seeing how confrontational George Bush has been for these last few years. I seriously saw more parallels with Bush than differences last night.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2008, 06:23 PM
I know. I read that. But she looked partisan, sarcastic and even petty last night. That might be endearing to her base, but it's off-putting after seeing how confrontational George Bush has been for these last few years. I seriously saw more parallels with Bush than differences last night.

I think issue wise Sarah is a lot more like GW Bush than Mccain is like GW Bush. I disagree on issues with Barrack, Palin and Mccain but I like all 3 of them. I'm not a big Biden fan though.

Raider_Vet
09-04-2008, 06:34 PM
I thought her speech was effective to the base of the Republican party which she needed to do. As far as attracting independants I think she did a crappy job at that. She and the rest of the speakers talked the same Republican talk since the Reagan years. Yes they did say washington needed a shake up but outside of that nothing that promoted real change. She will not make McCain a winner in 08.

ari1013
09-04-2008, 06:43 PM
I know. I read that. But she looked partisan, sarcastic and even petty last night. That might be endearing to her base, but it's off-putting after seeing how confrontational George Bush has been for these last few years. I seriously saw more parallels with Bush than differences last night.
That could be because Bush's speechwriter wrote her speech though.

Honestly, we still don't know that much about who she really is. I really hope she does a press conference soon.

ink
09-04-2008, 06:51 PM
That could be because Bush's speechwriter wrote her speech though.

Honestly, we still don't know that much about who she really is. I really hope she does a press conference soon.

Question: if they resent being called Bush term 3, why do they have Bush's speechwriter pen a poison, partisan, Bush-like speech??? :faint:

I also think she'll continue to be strong in the campaign. But I have to say that the pettiness I've read about from her Alaska "experience" raises alarm bells for me.

ari1013
09-04-2008, 06:55 PM
Question: if they resent being called Bush term 3, why do they have Bush's speechwriter pen a poison, partisan, Bush-like speech??? :faint:

I also think she'll continue to be strong in the campaign. But I have to say that the pettiness I've read about from her Alaska "experience" raises alarm bells for me.
Answer: Because even though Bush was a pretty crappy candidate, that technique won him two elections.

CuseDude87
09-04-2008, 07:10 PM
I was wondering what personal attacks you are refering to? If you are reffering to the community organizing remark, I think that is fair game, as Obama has used this as a part of the experience he brings to the office of presidency and his camp had hit her about being the mayor of a small town.

There were a few (I sat through it, I honestly can't make myself peruse through the text of her speech to highlight it for you) things she said, but the one that really got to me--which most others probably didn't notice--was her belittling of his "journey through life" as if every citizen should act without thinking for him or herself.

And while engaging in an argument about the relevance of community organizer work is definitely fair game, to say those people have "no responsibilities" is truly despicable. Those people do a lot of good work for their communities and Sarah Palin failed to take this into account when she was writing--I mean, regurgitating--the speech.


Here is some background from Time. IMO this is very undistinguished stuff.

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html

I think Sarah Palin's telling some fish stories about being a reformer. She looks more like a rank amateur throwing fits when things don't go her way. Same old same old. Just like Bush, she seems to take great pride in her absolute lack of diplomacy.

I still have yet to see a mature version of Sarah Palin. And I'm not sure I ever will.


Question: if they resent being called Bush term 3, why do they have Bush's speechwriter pen a poison, partisan, Bush-like speech??? :faint:

I also think she'll continue to be strong in the campaign. But I have to say that the pettiness I've read about from her Alaska "experience" raises alarm bells for me.

I feel the same way. Perhaps this was a token speech for rallying the Republican voters, and from here on out, she might try to appeal more toward the moderate and undecided voters.

yaowowrocket11
09-04-2008, 09:07 PM
I cannot stand her. She doesn't talk about the biggest issues in this country. Yes, energy is important, but what about the Iraq war, Education, the economy, real estate, etc...........? Talk about that instead of making pathetic attempts at attacking the opponent.

DenButsu
09-04-2008, 09:17 PM
cnn (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/04/palin-speech-pulls-in-8-million-for-obama/):


Palin speech pulls in $8 million — for Obama

Barack Obama's campaign says it has raised more than $8 million from over 130,000 donors following Republican VP candidate Sarah Palin's speech Wednesday night.

The campaign also says it is on track to raise $10 million before John McCain takes the podium at the Republican National Convention tonight.


Palin's speech was so strong that it energized both bases.

But the people in the middle? Not so impressed (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080903/NEWS15/80904002):


“Sarah Palin came across as the small town girl who made good. I knew that I disagreed with her on some issues before this evening. After listening to her speech … it appears that once she makes up her mind, that is the end of it. We live in a gray world, not every answer is black and white.”

-- Diane Murphy, 42, Sterling Heights independent

“I was completely underwhelmed. She was a Republican novelty act with a sophomoric script. It was not even a speech I would expect for a someone running for the local PTA, much less for vice president.”

-- George Lentz, 66, Southfield independent

“Who is Sarah Palin? I'm sorry but I still don't know anymore about this young lady tonight than I did last night ... The way it looks to me, she's the Republican vice presidential nominee for one reason: because Hillary wasn't selected.”

-- Mike Kosh, 38, West Bloomfield independent

"Sarah Palin is a self-described ‘pitbull with lipstick.’ She spent little time helping Americans learn who she is. She is a cool, poised speaker, but her speech contained few statements about policy or the party platform. … I am not convinced that Palin's experience as a mayor or governor in Alaska meet the qualifications to be vice president much less one stroke or heart attack away from being commander in chief.”

-- Ilene Beninson, 52, Berkley independent

“Nothing worked for me. I found her barrage of snide remarksand distortions to be a major turn off. She is not a class act. The most important point she made is that she will be an effective attack dog.”

-- Jan Wheelock, 58, Royal Oak independent

“Sarah got as much applause as Hillary did, and had a friendly, appealing appearance.
Her delivery style reminded me of a high school valedictorian who also might have been a cheerleader. I thought she would appear more professional, more stateswomanly. She's no match for Joe Biden.”

-- Joellen Gilchrist, 64, Beverly Hills independent

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 09:34 PM
I thought her speech was effective to the base of the Republican party which she needed to do. As far as attracting independants I think she did a crappy job at that. She and the rest of the speakers talked the same Republican talk since the Reagan years. Yes they did say washington needed a shake up but outside of that nothing that promoted real change. She will not make McCain a winner in 08.

Her whole point of last night was getting the base energized the rest of the campaign will be spent courting the independents. The base still views the Reagan years with fond memories like it or not. But to make a blanket statement like she will not make McCain a winner in 08 is a bit foolish. If McCain wins this year it will be in large part to her. If I was managing her campaign from here on out you have the base behind you start going after middle America small town America where people still hold the kind of values that she does. If she can do that successfully you will have the first woman VP. She will not push any of the people over on this board that don't like her and that is not her job. People on this board have more or less all already made up their minds and are extremely biased by their own views much like I am. Her aim isn't toward the more liberal members of this board so hate her all you want you are not her aim.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 09:37 PM
cnn (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/04/palin-speech-pulls-in-8-million-for-obama/):




Palin's speech was so strong that it energized both bases.

But the people in the middle? Not so impressed (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080903/NEWS15/80904002):

I'm sorry but i'm not impressed with the article. Of course people are going to not like her she isn't running to be liked by everyone. And she has brought in plenty of money on the R side also. And I hardly believe that these people where firmly in the middle to begin with if after one speech they are moved. So this is a non starter for me.

DenButsu
09-04-2008, 09:40 PM
I'm sorry but i'm not impressed with the article. Of course people are going to not like her she isn't running to be liked by everyone. And she has brought in plenty of money on the R side also. And I hardly believe that these people where firmly in the middle to begin with if after one speech they are moved. So this is a non starter for me.

If you had actually followed the link and read the entire article, you'd see that freep included Democrats and Republicans in their focus group as well. I only posted the views of the independents - and I posted all of them, not only those that weren't favorable towards Palin.

You can "hardly believe" that they're independent if it makes you feel better, but it was a definitively polarizing speech, and almost by definition people in the middle tend to have an aversion to that.

CuseDude87
09-04-2008, 09:40 PM
But the people in the middle? Not so impressed (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080903/NEWS15/80904002):

I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

At least I'm reassured that there are still intelligent people in America who didn't stand up from their couch every 2 minutes to applaud insults and fabricated claims.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 09:46 PM
If you had actually followed the link and read the entire article, you'd see that freep included Democrats and Republicans in their focus group as well. I only posted the views of the independents - and I posted all of them, not only those that weren't favorable towards Palin.

You can "hardly believe" that they're independent if it makes you feel better, but it was a definitively polarizing speech, and almost by definition people in the middle tend to have an aversion to that.

It may make a difference to me if the election was tomorrow. But it is still roughly 60 days away. The race will be won or lost on how well they do from here on out. If she is able to make her way through and get her message out I like their chances if not they have no chance. My point on these people is if one speech swung them over then I really don't believe they where truly independent. After the debates that would be one thing but after one speech sorry if i don't buy it.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 09:57 PM
With about two minutes worth of looking around I found data that says something different about the indies you spoke of.


This week's polling continues to show voters waiting to decide about Sarah Palin (see yesterday's poll on Palin). But in interviewing done yesterday, 83 percent of registered voters said that spouse and family of a candidate will not affect their votes.

Also now looks like the race is tied back up.


The presidential race between Barack Obama and John McCain is now even at 42 percent, according to a new CBS News poll conducted Monday-Wednesday of this week. Twelve percent are undecided according to the poll, and one percent said they wouldn't vote
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml

SmthBluCitrus
09-04-2008, 10:08 PM
With about two minutes worth of looking around I found data that says something different about the indies you spoke of.

Also now looks like the race is tied back up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml

I don't buy it. Not that it matters -- we don't vote September 4th, we vote November 4th. But, I still feel that a lot of the vote is being misrepresented in polling. There are too many other factors that are going to make a difference come election day that just don't show up in the polls.

Just my two cents.

ari1013
09-04-2008, 10:10 PM
With about two minutes worth of looking around I found data that says something different about the indies you spoke of.



Also now looks like the race is tied back up.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/04/opinion/polls/main4416798.shtml
No surprise there. Obama had his bounce, now McCain got his bounce to match.

hoosiercubsfan
09-04-2008, 10:14 PM
I don't buy it. Not that it matters -- we don't vote September 4th, we vote November 4th. But, I still feel that a lot of the vote is being misrepresented in polling. There are too many other factors that are going to make a difference come election day that just don't show up in the polls.

Just my two cents.

And I completely agree with you and that was my point to begin with that we don't vote tomorrow. So the people who made there mind today could change it tomorrow. But with people writing her off before any debates are done or campaigning has been done to me is foolish. Like her or not she is going to at the very least be a good campaigner. Whether that message resonates with the public will be the only thing that matters Nov. 4th.

SmthBluCitrus
09-04-2008, 10:27 PM
And I completely agree with you and that was my point to begin with that we don't vote tomorrow. So the people who made there mind today could change it tomorrow. But with people writing her off before any debates are done or campaigning has been done to me is foolish. Like her or not she is going to at the very least be a good campaigner. Whether that message resonates with the public will be the only thing that matters Nov. 4th.

Eh, I suppose you're missing my point. The McCain/Palin ticket isn't going to be able to bounce into November.

Looking at the numbers, something like 33 - 34% of likely voters are registered Dems that will likely vote for Obama/Biden. 31 - 32% are registered GOP that will likely vote McCain/Palin (assuming the base will rally around that ticket). The remaining indies are the people that everybody is going after.

I just don't see McCain talking majority+ of those indie votes, especially seeing the numbers that came out in the primary. I think you'll see somewhere around 53% of the popular vote coming out in favor of Obama. That's a virtual mandate by the modern standards of partisan nitpicking.

americaspasttim
09-05-2008, 12:44 PM
Eh, I suppose you're missing my point. The McCain/Palin ticket isn't going to be able to bounce into November.

Looking at the numbers, something like 33 - 34% of likely voters are registered Dems that will likely vote for Obama/Biden. 31 - 32% are registered GOP that will likely vote McCain/Palin (assuming the base will rally around that ticket). The remaining indies are the people that everybody is going after.

I just don't see McCain talking majority+ of those indie votes, especially seeing the numbers that came out in the primary. I think you'll see somewhere around 53% of the popular vote coming out in favor of Obama. That's a virtual mandate by the modern standards of partisan nitpicking.

How is the Primaries an adequate sampling of the Independants, when Independants don't vote in the Primaries?

CubsGirl
09-05-2008, 12:50 PM
How is the Primaries an adequate sampling of the Independants, when Independants don't vote in the Primaries?
Yes they do. Mr. CG and I are both independents and we both voted in California's primary.

SmthBluCitrus
09-05-2008, 12:54 PM
How is the Primaries an adequate sampling of the Independants, when Independants don't vote in the Primaries?

You have to look at the voter registration numbers of people that are first-time voters/caucus goers for the respective party. Most of them are non-affiliated, but chose to participate in the Dem primary -- and because you can same-day register for the party primary, you can be a part of the "action."

In Iowa, for example, the precincts were overwhelmed with caucus goers coming out en masse to participate in the Dem caucus. There are some precincts that had 30 people show up in 2004 and saw over 300 show up this year. Caucus leaders never saw anything like it before.

If we translate the numbers from the primary turnover to the general election, Obama will likely get well more than 50% of the likely indies (when all he really needs is somewhere around 45 - 47%.

We know our target number of votes in Iowa that we're going after ... and we know what the RPI (Rep party of Iowa) needs -- and their goal is unattainable (IF) primary turnover holds true. Which, it usually does.

I have access to that info through my Dem affiliation (sorry, it isn't something I can link you to).

americaspasttim
09-05-2008, 12:56 PM
Yes they do. Mr. CG and I are both independents and we both voted in California's primary.
Interesting. I've been registered to vote in three states since I turned 18, Florida, New Hampshire, and Alaska. All three I registered Independant and all three did not allow me to vote in the primaries...