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RoyCisneros
09-02-2008, 05:38 PM
in my other forum that i post in we have weekly arguments, and i was assigned to make a case for malone against tim duncan..

i figured i would post it here and possibly start a discussion filled with peoples opinions on who they believe was actually a better player and why.




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i believe a player's greatness can be measured by their individual achievements, their contributions to their teammates, and their work ethics.

i came to this conclusion by thinking about basketball as a job. i believe the best worker would be someone who does the most, contributes to their coworkers the most, and someone who works the hardest.

and looking at both karl and tim duncan i have to say karl has done the most, he contributes to his team the most, and he does work WAY HARDER.
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Offense.

Karl malone wins hands down, malone is arguably the best offensive power forward the league has ever seen. tim duncan on the other hand is not even the best offensive player on his team (manu ginobili has proven he is a better offensive player statistically. per minutes played manu ginobili averages more points than duncan)

karl malone was the leading scorer his team for 17 years... even at the age of 39 he was leading his team offensively per minutes played and points per game average...

right now tim duncan is 30 and offensively he is being surpassed... tim duncan has only led his team in points per game 9 seasons and only led his team in points per minutes played 8 seasons. and he's only 30 years old! imagine where tim duncan will be in 9 more years? WILL HE EVEN BE IN THE LEAGUE!?!? he didnt have to go through the wear and tear malone put up with either. malone would bang in the paint with the hardest/toughest players to play the game, duncan is playing in a weaker nba with more strict and enforced rules which does not permit the banging in the paint malone had to deal with. hell malone was hacked so many damn times, that he holds the NBA record for most seasons leading the league in free-throws made (seven, 1988-89 to 1992-93, 1996-97, 1997-98)

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Defense

i have to give it to malone again, although duncan averages more rebounds and blocks malone has held teams and players to less points. even holding tim duncan to under 15pts 13 different times!

duncan has arguably the best defending small forward on his team in bruce bowen, and yet the spurs give up more points per league average than the utah jazz did...

Karl malones defense is so overlooked because people tend to focus only on blocked shots, instead of focusing on steals and how poor they force opponents to shoot.

even michael jordan admitted playing against karl malne was like "hitting a wall"

heres something i found in an article:
"Michael Jordan, three times he has failed to score more than 16 points on karl malone. being held to an average of 43% against Karl"

let me go take a look at one of the season's that i remember best, the season before malone made the finals(as a member of the jazz) to show you how well he played defense.

Game 1
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19951103.html
outscores his man shawn kemp 27-26, )

Game 2
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAC19961102.html
outscored his man rodney rogers 21 to 4, plus holds Rodney rogers below his average of 13ppg

Game 3
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961104.html
outscored his man charles barkley 16-9 forcing barkley to shoot 2-11(when barkley was averaging 18ppg that season)

Game 4
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/HOU19961109.html
outscored his man charleys barkley 32-8 forcing barkley to shoot 3-14 while barkleys average was 18ppg that season

Game 5
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961113.html
outscored his man Olden Polynice 22-1 forcing olden to shoot 0-7 while his average was 12.5ppg

Game 6
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961115.html
outscored his man Bryant Reeves 21-19

Game 7
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/DAL19961116.html
outscored his man loren meyer 19-0 obviously hodling him below his average.

Game 8
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAL19961120.html
outscored his man elden campbell 37-4 while campbell was averaging 14ppg, forced campbell to shoot under 50% 2-6

Game 9
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961121.html
outscored his man joe smith 33-18, while keeping joe smith below his average.

Game 10
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961123.html
outscores dennis rodman 36-2, while keep rodman below his average(yes i know rodman wasent much of a scorer, but keeping him to 1 basket and ******** 36 pts on him?)

Game 11
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961125.html
outscores jayson williams 27-9, keeping him below his average

game 12
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961127.html
outscores antonio mcdyess 31-15 keeping mcdyess below his average

Game 13
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961129.html
outscores rodney rogers 19-11 holding rodney rogers below his average

Game 14
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SEA19961201.html
outscores shawn kemp 30-29

Game 15
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961202.html
outscores anthony mason 22-17

Game 16
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961204.html
outscores elden campbell 27-12 keeping him below his average

Game 17
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19961206.html
outscores tom gugliotta 34-28

Game 18
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19951207.html
out scores mcdyess 26-10

Game 19
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19951209.html
out scores joe smith 51-4. forcing joe smith to shoot 1-4 (joe smith averaged 15ppg that year)

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anyways i could go on all 82 games. and show you the whole season. malone dominated all men he was matched up against. he held 5 players scoreless that season. 6 if you include anthony mason scoring his only points(3) while malone was on the bench and he was being guarded by jeff foster.

in that season he outscored joe smith 51 to 4. killed garnett 36-10. murdered dale davis 38-2. destroyed shawn kemp 32-3

when have you seen duncan take it to garnett 36-10?!? hell look at this other season:
http://basketball-reference.com/boxscores/MIN19951118.html

malone 31pts, garnett 7 and garnett played more mins than malone!.

malone is just one of the most consitant players around. you know each game he is going to dominate you with speed and strength. duncan takes advantage of teams that lack weak big men. if they have strong pf's or c's poppovich gets duncan to ease up on the offense and the spurs try to outscore the other team with ginobili and parker.

back to the season i was talking about...

malone averaged 30pts, 58% after allstar break.

also along with the 30pts and 58% in march of that season the jazz played only 4 home games and went 14-1 that month. beating the grizzlies, warriors, mavericks, pistons, twolves, nets, pacers, bullets, hornets, celtics, clippers, nuggets, bucs and yes THE SPURS!

and then in april they only lost 1 game, they beat the kings, grizzlies, warriors, SPURS, lakers, rockets, suns, warriors, twolves and kings

so from march to april they only lost 2 games... and beat the spurs twice

now i know what you spur fans are thinking... "well theres more to duncans defense then stats show" and that is true, but it also true there is more to malones defense then stats shows... malone is one of the best at drawing offensive fouls. no power foward in the history of the nba that has been fouled more on defense than karl malone.

So.... karl malone holds players to less points, dominants men that he's matched up against and forces "the greatest player of all time"(michael jordan) to struggle and score less than 16pts 3 different times.

again back to my work comparsion.... who was a better employee? a guy who produced a product of mine at a better rate, and for a longer time, and showed up to work a lot more often? or a guy who couldn't produce as much and couldn't produce for half that period of time as the other employee, and didnt show up to work as much?


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anyway's it's late but i wanted to finish my opening argument with this:

Malones career averages are better than tim duncans best season. karl malone played untill he was 40 years old and was way more dominant.

tim duncan is only 30 and cannot finish allyoops. Duncan cannot play at the level he did. his career highs peaked 6 years ago.

Tim duncan is not the best defender on his team(bowen is), he's not the best offensive player(ginobili is), he's not the guy who sets the pace his team plays(parker is). tim duncan is a great player who can do everything you ask. but is not at malones level


karl malone on the other hand was the best defender on his team(although stockton holds the alltime steals record he did not hold his opponents to horrible shooting percentages and low points like malone did), and karl was the best offensive player of his team. malone was not only the best offensive player on his team, but he was arguably the best offensive power foward the league has seen

also malone averages more assists than tim duncan while playing less minutes. so you can add a little extra check for passing the ball more..

long story short. malone was a better offensive player, he was a better team player, he was a better defensive player, he played in a harder nba, he worked harder, he had better work ethics, he played longer, and he was more dominant.

So........... spurs fans... why is duncan better? because he has more defensive first team awards? did duncan win a defensive first time awards against "the best defensive power forward" Dennis Rodman?

no.... but guess what... malone has...
also... before you spurs fans get on me about how bad malone does against dennis rodman. i'd like to point out that...

malone averaged 26ppg against rodman while duncan averaged 16.5. Malone only averaged 2.9 turnovers while duncan averaged 4.5

and rodman only averaged 1.3 rebounds more than malone did, while rodman averaged 2 more rebounds than duncan, against duncan.

i also have a few pages on phil jacksons books marked where he mentions the spurs success over the lakers is due to being unable to stop tony parker.

with quotes like that, with tnt saying ginobili was robbed of the finals mvp when it was awarded to duncan, and tony parker winning the most recent finals mvp i could really question the leadership of tim duncan... i can't really think of any other "team leaders" who are not the best offensive or defensive player on their team, and have opposing teams more worried about other players.

_Sn1P3r_
09-02-2008, 05:39 PM
Wrong thread buddy.

prash
09-02-2008, 05:44 PM
Tim Duncan > Malone

ugafan
09-02-2008, 05:45 PM
Tim Duncan > Malone

Great argument.

prash
09-02-2008, 05:47 PM
Great argument.

LOL.

Duncan 4/4 in NBA Finals. Malone 0/4 in NBA Finals.