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View Full Version : What's Orton's potential?



ry31walsh
09-02-2008, 06:25 AM
I think a lot of fans are quick to judge players and never really considered that most players get better as time goes on. Out of any position in football QB seems to take the longest to develop by far. But for some reason Orton gets judged based on a rookie year, and I really don't understand why? Its pretty much common knowledge that most rookie QBs just aren't ready for the NFL. Most player sit a year to a couple and learn. If you look at the top QBs 20 QBs stats wise only Payton Manning started every game as a rookie. Big Ben is the only player who started more then 8 games as a rookie. If you look at most players they took a couple of years before they even got a shot to play. I think a lot of people look at Orton and act like we know what he is. The point of this post isn't that Orton's going to be a superstar. But if you look at guys that have been solid QBs, a lot of them took a couple of years to develope before they started playing well. Guys like Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck were actually pretty bad when they first started.

Orton is currently 25, which makes him the same age as guys like Derrick Anderson, Vince Young, Jay Cutler, and a year younger then guys like Phillip Rivers and Jason Cambell. If compared age wise at 25 Tony Romo had never thrown a single pass in the NFL. I guess my question is how come there isn't a more optimistic look on Orton as a QB. Grossman played well enough to keep his job IMO up until this season. So its not like you can say well if Orton was that good he would have started before this year. I don't know I just don't get why everyone's like Ortons just an average QB. Maybe he is I don't know but at 25 and only really playing as a rookie and it seems like a knock against him. Like Orton rookie play was worse the not playing at all. QB's seem to break out in some crazy ways, and all different places. Lot of guys struggle early in there careers like Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck. I actually am somewhat excited to see what Orton can do. Maybe he ends up being terrible I don't know. But at this point I'm not sure anyone really knows what Ortons full potential can be.

cambovenzi
09-02-2008, 12:41 PM
he doesnt have a very strong arm.
and hes shown relatively little potential.
i dont think he can be considered even an average QB at this point.

not performing, and simply being not old are not signs he will do good.

urlachermess
09-02-2008, 12:55 PM
none 3rd qb at best on most teams

Stackshot
09-02-2008, 05:46 PM
he doesnt have a very strong arm.
and hes shown relatively little potential.
i dont think he can be considered even an average QB at this point.

not performing, and simply being not old are not signs he will do good.

Yeah, to be considered average, wouldn't he have to be better than 14-15 other quarterback's starting in the NFL?


Can we name more than 4 he's considerably better than?

Tankjeep
09-02-2008, 07:34 PM
I think a lot of fans are quick to judge players and never really considered that most players get better as time goes on. Out of any position in football QB seems to take the longest to develop by far. But for some reason Orton gets judged based on a rookie year, and I really don't understand why? Its pretty much common knowledge that most rookie QBs just aren't ready for the NFL. Most player sit a year to a couple and learn. If you look at the top QBs 20 QBs stats wise only Payton Manning started every game as a rookie. Big Ben is the only player who started more then 8 games as a rookie. If you look at most players they took a couple of years before they even got a shot to play. I think a lot of people look at Orton and act like we know what he is. The point of this post isn't that Orton's going to be a superstar. But if you look at guys that have been solid QBs, a lot of them took a couple of years to develope before they started playing well. Guys like Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck were actually pretty bad when they first started.

Orton is currently 25, which makes him the same age as guys like Derrick Anderson, Vince Young, Jay Cutler, and a year younger then guys like Phillip Rivers and Jason Cambell. If compared age wise at 25 Tony Romo had never thrown a single pass in the NFL. I guess my question is how come there isn't a more optimistic look on Orton as a QB. Grossman played well enough to keep his job IMO up until this season. So its not like you can say well if Orton was that good he would have started before this year. I don't know I just don't get why everyone's like Ortons just an average QB. Maybe he is I don't know but at 25 and only really playing as a rookie and it seems like a knock against him. Like Orton rookie play was worse the not playing at all. QB's seem to break out in some crazy ways, and all different places. Lot of guys struggle early in there careers like Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck. I actually am somewhat excited to see what Orton can do. Maybe he ends up being terrible I don't know. But at this point I'm not sure anyone really knows what Ortons full potential can be.

couldn't agree with you more. i'm a huge notre dame fan and thought orton had very good potential coming out of college (purdue). i've seen orton carve up notre dame plenty of times, and that was with a pro style offense in college. he's got the size and despite what most people think here, i believe he's got the arm strength to hit the receievers down field.

i know a good college career doesn't automatically equate to a stellar pro career, but it does show that he has potential. like ry31walsh said, most qb's that come into the league have a few years to develop and seldomly do they play their first year and excel (rex is a perfect example of this). in comparison to big ben and to peyton manning, orton was not even closely thought of as a starter and wasn't groomed as such. rex was. it was obvious when rex went down that kyle was not ready or prepared enough by the coaches for the pro game....he wasn't given a chance to be the starter becuz of having less reps in practices. rex was the one being groomed.

so, when it came time for orton to step in for emergent duty....he was clueless and not clearly ready. in addition to that (everybody wants to say that rex didn't get protection) orton didn't have the best offensive line either, which lead to plenty of rookie mistakes. he didn't have a lot of time to throw and was hurried, sacked, tipped or whatever.

but still, people want to judge him based off of his rookie season....which still doesn't make any sense to me, at all. so, ry31walsh, i know how you feel.

blams
09-02-2008, 11:17 PM
less potential than colt brennan and that is really saying something

db75
09-02-2008, 11:31 PM
couldn't agree with you more. i'm a huge notre dame fan and thought orton had very good potential coming out of college (purdue). i've seen orton carve up notre dame plenty of times, and that was with a pro style offense in college. he's got the size and despite what most people think here, i believe he's got the arm strength to hit the receievers down field.

i know a good college career doesn't automatically equate to a stellar pro career, but it does show that he has potential. like ry31walsh said, most qb's that come into the league have a few years to develop and seldomly do they play their first year and excel (rex is a perfect example of this). in comparison to big ben and to peyton manning, orton was not even closely thought of as a starter and wasn't groomed as such. rex was. it was obvious when rex went down that kyle was not ready or prepared enough by the coaches for the pro game....he wasn't given a chance to be the starter becuz of having less reps in practices. rex was the one being groomed.



so, when it came time for orton to step in for emergent duty....he was clueless and not clearly ready. in addition to that (everybody wants to say that rex didn't get protection) orton didn't have the best offensive line either, which lead to plenty of rookie mistakes. he didn't have a lot of time to throw and was hurried, sacked, tipped or whatever.

but still, people want to judge him based off of his rookie season....which still doesn't make any sense to me, at all. so, ry31walsh, i know how you feel.

He doesn't have the best line now. That and in the games he's played since his rookie year, he doesn't look that much better. Including preseason games (because that's the only way to get a look at how he's performed since 05), he has an average QB rating of 71.4 through 11 preseason and 3 regular season games. He shows the same really good, really bad, really good, decent, decent, etc. pattern Rex showed. I just am not convinced that Orton will be anything special/better than Rex.

In case you were wondering, through the same period of time (preseaon, reg. season, post season), Rex has put up an average QB rating of 73.3 through 41 games. Yes, Rex has a larger sample size, but based on trends, Orton likely won't produce any better than Rex.

cambovenzi
09-02-2008, 11:32 PM
the line in 05 was fine.
him being horrible was the problem.

Stackshot
09-02-2008, 11:54 PM
Really though, with the combination of

a) Lack of overall skill
b) Terrible offensive line
c) Poor Wide recievers
d) Vanilla play-calling
e) Lack of a "proven" run game (Not bad, just unproven)

Does anyone see him putting up a Qb rating above a 65?

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 12:08 AM
Really though, with the combination of

a) Lack of overall skill
b) Terrible offensive line
c) Poor Wide recievers
d) Vanilla play-calling
e) Lack of a "proven" run game (Not bad, just unproven)

Does anyone see him putting up a Qb rating above a 65?

yeah actually.
dink and dunk.
limit turnovers.
barely ever pass, so teams are somewhat surprised by the pass.
QB rating isnt effected by the number of times you throw, so him only throwing 15-20 passes a game wont hurt him in QB rating.
doesnt mean we will score much tho.

urlachermess
09-03-2008, 12:10 AM
hes got one hell of a neck beard which will help him in cold winter games

temper27
09-03-2008, 08:06 AM
He has the potential to be the Bears starting QB for many years to come IF he performs up to snuff this year. If he doesnt he is our backup in the coming years and someone new is brought in.

Muttman73
09-03-2008, 09:16 AM
He has the potential to survive this season as I don't see him as the injury type...but honestly he is clip board material (as in holding one) I can see him as the "mentor" for a young QB next year.

FUKudomeYOMOMMA
09-03-2008, 09:56 AM
he has the potential to finish your drink if you dont keep an eye on him

DIE HARD BEAR
09-03-2008, 10:06 AM
give him a chance. He does have a better toolbox than last year. i am not a stat man but i expect more shot gun formations and i do believe he has a quick release and a much faster "processing time" to make his decisions and get rid of the ball. In addition he will do what is asked of him and not force plays that aren't there. As far as arm strength his throws since the end of last year seem to be coming out with a lot more zip than rookie season.

i am excited to watch them play. With forte, jones, hester,llyod, davis, booker, clark, olsen he has alot of options. i hope the playing is creative to keep the d guessing.

Ball control, dink & dunk, great defense, and outstanding special teams, is a pretty good game plan. We just don't want to get far behind in a game.

BEARS OF OLD. CARDIAC KIDS! Keep it close and move the ball.

Bulldog76
09-03-2008, 10:32 AM
18's potential is actually pretty high...He has good size a quick release (not as quick as rex's) and he can throw with accuracy up to about 35 yards...which in our offense is about as deep as you'll ever need to throw it..

What hinders his potential is exactly what most people have pointed out... Bad offensive line making him throw on the run, which is not a strog suit by any means...Mediocre WRs who will drop passes on him, which with the limited number of attempts and clean throws he will get will cost him in his QB rating...and his mobility is that of a three toed sloth, so he won't be able to scramble when a play breaks down...

However, if Turner can put more shotgun snaps into the offense this year he will be more likely to succeed since that will give him more time to read the defense and see the blitz coming...

Overall potential...top 23 QB in the league...realistically he won't start the entire season as a result of injury or performance...Rex will get the call, and then Rex will give the middle finger to JA, Lovie and Ron Turner on his way to San Fran, Minnesota or Kansas City next year...leaving us with Caleb Hanie and neckbeard in yet another quarterback competition opening the season...yippee

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 11:57 AM
the line in 05 was fine.
him being horrible was the problem.

whatever man, so you are pretty much saying that the 30 sacks were all orton's fault!?!?!? your rex hard on is so obvious.

BEARSFAN3215
09-03-2008, 12:40 PM
I have to agree with you Bulldog. Although I will come out and say it Grossman is our best QB and im not affraid to admit it. Rex will do well this year after he is put in by benching Orton or Orton getting hurt. The Bears will not resign him which is dumb on their behalf. He will then go to another team and he will be the quarterback everyone expected him to be. MOstly everyone that is traded from the bears has breakout years afterwards.

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 01:01 PM
^disagree wholeheartedly. grossman is a mental midget, doesn't have any pocket presence and throws off his back foot more often than not (meaning his technique is way off). he will continually struggle in the nfl becuz more teams know the formula to frazzle him.....plenty of blitz and pressure packages.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 01:19 PM
whatever man, so you are pretty much saying that the 30 sacks were all orton's fault!?!?!? your rex hard on is so obvious.

not all ortons fault, but a good deal of them probably were.
a bad rookie QB who didnt know what he was doing.
and he barely ever passed.
if you watched the games, you would know the line was fine.
tait, brown, miller, kreutz. and then garza/metcalf.
back when they werent nearly as old.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 01:22 PM
^disagree wholeheartedly. grossman is a mental midget, doesn't have any pocket presence and throws off his back foot more often than not (meaning his technique is way off). he will continually struggle in the nfl becuz more teams know the formula to frazzle him.....plenty of blitz and pressure packages.

thats how you beat ANY QB. if the Oline doesnt block, your screwed.
all this mental midget crap is garbage.

despite bad blocking, he still did pretty well at the end of last year, and this preseason.

he does awful well for having no technique and pocket presence.
must have gotten real lucky on that 95 yard drive and throughout his career:rolleyes:

babbaman
09-03-2008, 02:48 PM
he doesnt have a very strong arm.
and hes shown relatively little potential.
i dont think he can be considered even an average QB at this point.

not performing, and simply being not old are not signs he will do good.

I suppose you have caught passes from Orton before?

""I think I've changed as a player and as a person," Orton said. "I've matured. I've been in the system now for three years. I feel very comfortable with it.

"Everybody around me has been in the system for three years and feels more comfortable with it. I think we're a better team now than we were when I was a rookie, and I think I'm a better player now than I was when I was a rookie."

Orton has the strongest arm on the team and is closest to the prototypical size for an NFL quarterback. But he has spent the past two seasons directing the scout team, imitating the opponents' offense against the Bears' No. 1 defense.

"He's been the opposing quarterback just about every week," Smith said. "He's a smart football player. He has a strong arm. Our guys have played with him, so they know what type of player he is, too.""

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=92768

"Desmond Clark was talking on the radio last night while I was driving home from work. He was asked many questions about the various quarterbacks he's played with over his career. One thing he said really caught my attention. When asked what the difference was between the balls thrown by Rex Grossman and Brian Griese, he said they're about the same. He said the quarterback on the Bears who throws the hardest is Kyle Orton. I believe the exact quote was, "You have no choice but to catch the ball it comes at you so hard."

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/67096

I also remember reading at some point last year that Berrian made a remark that Orton had the strongest arm on the team as well but I can't find it to quote, so take that with a grain of salt. Maybe Grossman has a stronger arm to a lot of people other than the receivers catching the ball, but I think the real point that people are failing to see is that Orton has a strong enough arm to make all the throws he needs to. Along with an arm "adequate enough to make all the throws," he steps up in the pocket better, and he can actually see the receivers in order to make a more informed decision on whether or not the receiver is covered. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'.

timov8
09-03-2008, 03:24 PM
I was rooting for Grossman to win the competition, but I think Orton might be the man. He may read a defense better, and act accordingly.

Alpha 21
09-03-2008, 04:03 PM
no one want's to read that whole thing.

just state ur point

db75
09-03-2008, 04:35 PM
I suppose you have caught passes from Orton before?

""I think I've changed as a player and as a person," Orton said. "I've matured. I've been in the system now for three years. I feel very comfortable with it.

"Everybody around me has been in the system for three years and feels more comfortable with it. I think we're a better team now than we were when I was a rookie, and I think I'm a better player now than I was when I was a rookie."

Orton has the strongest arm on the team and is closest to the prototypical size for an NFL quarterback. But he has spent the past two seasons directing the scout team, imitating the opponents' offense against the Bears' No. 1 defense.

"He's been the opposing quarterback just about every week," Smith said. "He's a smart football player. He has a strong arm. Our guys have played with him, so they know what type of player he is, too.""

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=92768

"Desmond Clark was talking on the radio last night while I was driving home from work. He was asked many questions about the various quarterbacks he's played with over his career. One thing he said really caught my attention. When asked what the difference was between the balls thrown by Rex Grossman and Brian Griese, he said they're about the same. He said the quarterback on the Bears who throws the hardest is Kyle Orton. I believe the exact quote was, "You have no choice but to catch the ball it comes at you so hard."

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/67096

I also remember reading at some point last year that Berrian made a remark that Orton had the strongest arm on the team as well but I can't find it to quote, so take that with a grain of salt. Maybe Grossman has a stronger arm to a lot of people other than the receivers catching the ball, but I think the real point that people are failing to see is that Orton has a strong enough arm to make all the throws he needs to. Along with an arm "adequate enough to make all the throws," he steps up in the pocket better, and he can actually see the receivers in order to make a more informed decision on whether or not the receiver is covered. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'.

Look at when that article was written. It was right after Rex was pulled and Griese was doing his best Chad Hutchison impersonation. The team turned on those two. They're going to do their best to sway the media/fan base to Orton regardless of how he plays.

I agree with you, too, Bearsfan3215. I still think Grossman gives this team the best chance to win, and I hope he can either A. perform really well and warrant a sign and trade or B. perform well and stay on the roster. That said, A is most likely to happen should he see playing time.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 05:37 PM
I suppose you have caught passes from Orton before?

""I think I've changed as a player and as a person," Orton said. "I've matured. I've been in the system now for three years. I feel very comfortable with it.

"Everybody around me has been in the system for three years and feels more comfortable with it. I think we're a better team now than we were when I was a rookie, and I think I'm a better player now than I was when I was a rookie."

Orton has the strongest arm on the team and is closest to the prototypical size for an NFL quarterback. But he has spent the past two seasons directing the scout team, imitating the opponents' offense against the Bears' No. 1 defense.

"He's been the opposing quarterback just about every week," Smith said. "He's a smart football player. He has a strong arm. Our guys have played with him, so they know what type of player he is, too.""

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=92768

"Desmond Clark was talking on the radio last night while I was driving home from work. He was asked many questions about the various quarterbacks he's played with over his career. One thing he said really caught my attention. When asked what the difference was between the balls thrown by Rex Grossman and Brian Griese, he said they're about the same. He said the quarterback on the Bears who throws the hardest is Kyle Orton. I believe the exact quote was, "You have no choice but to catch the ball it comes at you so hard."

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/67096

I also remember reading at some point last year that Berrian made a remark that Orton had the strongest arm on the team as well but I can't find it to quote, so take that with a grain of salt. Maybe Grossman has a stronger arm to a lot of people other than the receivers catching the ball, but I think the real point that people are failing to see is that Orton has a strong enough arm to make all the throws he needs to. Along with an arm "adequate enough to make all the throws," he steps up in the pocket better, and he can actually see the receivers in order to make a more informed decision on whether or not the receiver is covered. I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'.

thats just ignorant.
he has nowhere near as strong an arm as grossman.
its not close. almost anyone could tell you that.

what you want lovie to say, he has a weak arm?
strong isnt a set in stone type of word.
strong compared to what?
my grandmother? yeah. grossman? NO...

yeah, he probably got a little better w/ experience.
i dont deny that.
that doesnt make him good now.
he is still most likely a below average QB.

also grossman has this thing called touch, he doesnt have to bullet it everytime, or lob it up, to make it work.

DIE HARD BEAR
09-03-2008, 07:02 PM
thats just ignorant.
he has nowhere near as strong an arm as grossman.
its not close. almost anyone could tell you that.

what you want lovie to say, he has a weak arm?
strong isnt a set in stone type of word.
strong compared to what?
my grandmother? yeah. grossman? NO...

yeah, he probably got a little better w/ experience.
i dont deny that.
that doesnt make him good now.
he is still most likely a below average QB.

also grossman has this thing called touch, he doesnt have to bullet it everytime, or lob it up, to make it work.



Are you defining "touch" as throwing the ball on such a large rainbow that everyone can get under it. (see super bowl 2 years ago) or a lame outside screen that get picked off because it didn't get over a DE's head. ( see at least 8-10 games of the past 3 years ) guesstimate.

so now clark is a liar also. covering for his qb and the o-line has a conspiracy to not block for Grossman... (as states many times on several of these treads)

COME ON. GET REAL andsupport the bears. I can't wait and please mark this down somewhere and write me then. when grossman gets cut,released, or just walks who signs him. He didn't get much interest this year. that's why he signed with us.

The season is here & iit's Orton's job support him.

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 07:09 PM
^^^okay you say below average, but he's starting over grossman. get over this love affair you have for rex. and you say rex has touch, are you forgetting the countless times that rex missed hitting the short routes, leading to 3 and outs last season? give me a break with this rex vs. orton crap.

every argument you make for rex performing poorly this preseason can be used in the same manner for orton during his rookie season. his rookie friggin' season dude......where he wasn't prepared just as you mention, but what defense will you come up for someone that's been in the league a lot longer??? rex should know better what to do if his blocking goes south....but he didn't pick up the blitzes, didn't read the defense, didn't look to get rid of the ball when pressured or just before he was sacked....why, becuz he's mental midget.

plus, he's not a leader like a supposed great qb that you claim him to be.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 07:19 PM
Are you defining "touch" as throwing the ball on such a large rainbow that everyone can get under it. (see super bowl 2 years ago) or a lame outside screen that get picked off because it didn't get over a DE's head. ( see at least 8-10 games of the past 3 years ) guesstimate.

so now clark is a liar also. covering for his qb and the o-line has a conspiracy to not block for Grossman... (as states many times on several of these treads)

COME ON. GET REAL andsupport the bears. I can't wait and please mark this down somewhere and write me then. when grossman gets cut,released, or just walks who signs him. He didn't get much interest this year. that's why he signed with us.

The season is here & iit's Orton's job support him.

lmao.
i love how you example is from a game with a complete downpour.
and that wasnt a rainbow, it sailed a little and the WRs stopped.

interception on a screen?
lets see some examples.

claiming orton has a stronger arm is ridiculous.
idc what clark said.
anyone can tell you by watching tape, or seeing a practice that grossman has a much stronger arm.

i do support the bears.
i just dont sit back and let people post made up garbage about an inferior QB having a stronger arm.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 07:22 PM
^^^okay you say below average, but he's starting over grossman. get over this love affair you have for rex. and you say rex has touch, are you forgetting the countless times that rex missed hitting the short routes, leading to 3 and outs last season? give me a break with this rex vs. orton crap.

every argument you make for rex performing poorly this preseason can be used in the same manner for orton during his rookie season. his rookie friggin' season dude......where he wasn't prepared just as you mention, but what defense will you come up for someone that's been in the league a lot longer??? rex should know better what to do if his blocking goes south....but he didn't pick up the blitzes, didn't read the defense, didn't look to get rid of the ball when pressured or just before he was sacked....why, becuz he's mental midget.

plus, he's not a leader like a supposed great qb that you claim him to be.

weak, and inaccurate arm were also huge reasons for ortons struggles.

countless times?
lol.
b/c orton moves the team downfield so much better:rolleyes:

not a leader?
pretty subjective, total speculation, and has little to do w/ talent.

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 07:29 PM
weak, and inaccurate arm were also huge reasons for ortons struggles.

countless times?
lol.
b/c orton moves the team downfield so much better:rolleyes:

not a leader?
pretty subjective, total speculation, and has little to do w/ talent.

"struggles" in his rookie season...which you still cast judgment about.

so far, orton has shown during preseason that he can move the team downfield, and much better than rex.

also, in the nfl the qb needs to be a leader (verbally or thru body language). rex is the worst. he always has that glazed look and when things go wrong, he looks like a little boy that needs to cry to his mommy. speculation huh? the veterans on the team can see that he's not a leader....hence they like the way orton carries himself.

i don't like the fact that moose and rivera quoted saying bad things about rex, but the fact is....they did. so, why would they go out of their way to say such things....probably becuz they are true.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 07:34 PM
"struggles" in his rookie season...which you still cast judgment about.

so far, orton has shown during preseason that he can move the team downfield, and much better than rex.
where did he show that?
against the 49'ers? when rex barely played.
or against the browns, where he struggled, and rex played one drive, a 95 yard, TD scoring one.

how bout SLIGHTLY better #'s in the 1st two games, that are easily explained by the fact that rex had to start against the much harder team @qwest field, and got no blocking at all.


also, in the nfl the qb needs to be a leader (verbally or thru body language). rex is the worst. he always has that glazed look and when things go wrong, he looks like a little boy that needs to cry to his mommy. speculation huh? the veterans on the team can see that he's not a leader....hence they like the way orton carries himself.
pshh.
yeah, hes not happy when the offense doesnt do well.
is that a problem? you dont like his attitude sometimes, so he shouldnt be the starter. great point:rolleyes:


i don't like the fact that moose and rivera quoted saying bad things about rex, but the fact is....they did. so, why would they go out of their way to say such things....probably becuz they are true.
rivera was a D coordinator, and moose probably didnt like orton any better.

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 07:45 PM
yeah, hes not happy when the offense doesnt do well.
is that a problem? you dont like his attitude sometimes, so he shouldnt be the starter. great point:rolleyes:

rivera was a D coordinator, and moose probably didnt like orton any better.

yes, it's an effin team sport and as a leader your teammates look up to you. rex sucks with his body language or the lack there of. obviously, you've never been a captain of sorts in any team sport becuz then you'd know the importance of body language and always trying to display confidence so you keep your team on the positive side of the ball.

in addition to that, you also know when to be vocal and fire people up....rex does none of the above. his teammates can't rely on him. rex is always the one that needs cheering up.....always. i'm sure the veterans are sick and tired of baby sitting their supposed star of a qb.

so far orton has displayed that leadership in his swagger and preparation. hence, he's a captain now.


yes, rivera was the defensive coordinator.....who do you think he faced in practice?? do you think that all the starting defense faces is the practice squad? now you're grasping at straws.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 07:54 PM
yes, it's an effin team sport and as a leader your teammates look up to you. rex sucks with his body language or the lack there of. obviously, you've never been a captain of sorts in any team sport becuz then you'd know the importance of body language and always trying to display confidence so you keep your team on the positive side of the ball.

in addition to that, you also know when to be vocal and fire people up....rex does none of the above. his teammates can't rely on him. rex is always the one that needs cheering up.....always. i'm sure the veterans are sick and tired of baby sitting their supposed star of a qb.
part of that is exaggeration, and part can be countered with common sense.
he is not happy when he throws a pick, or something happens where they dont succeed.
and he IS happy when they do succeed.
you overvaluing intangibles that have little to do w/ results.
and intangibles, that well, cant be measured.
i dont pick a QB b/c of leadership.
i would want the better QB to start.
that is what helps the team.



so far orton has displayed that leadership in his swagger and preparation. hence, he's a captain now.
maybe, and maybe part of it is they want to say he is the leader of the team, b/c they chose him as the starting QB.


yes, rivera was the defensive coordinator.....who do you think he faced in practice?? do you think that all the starting defense faces is the practice squad? now you're grasping at straws.

IM the one grasping at straws b/c idc what a grouchy ex-DC said about a QB awhile ago?

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 08:04 PM
i'm willing to make a bet with you.....i bet that grossman will never be a successful qb in the nfl, ever again. i mean successful in that he won't ever have to face a qb competition against supposed inferior talent or be able to lead a team to back-2-back successful campaigns for the playoffs. even if he were to get on a team like new england (i know it won't ever happen, but i'm speaking in terms of personnel and blocking), he still wouldn't be successful.

part of it is that he's really not that good and second....his teammates won't buy into him as a leader. you look at all the greats, and they were all great leaders in addition to being awesome nfl qb's. that's one of rex's many downfalls and it's becoming more and more apparent, to not only the players, but the coaches too. they've gotten sick of baby sitting him and having to cheer up a grown man.

db75
09-03-2008, 08:13 PM
i'm willing to make a bet with you.....i bet that grossman will never be a successful qb in the nfl, ever again. i mean successful in that he won't ever have to face a qb competition against supposed inferior talent or be able to lead a team to back-2-back successful campaigns for the playoffs. even if he were to get on a team like new england (i know it won't ever happen, but i'm speaking in terms of personnel and blocking), he still wouldn't be successful.

part of it is that he's really not that good and second....his teammates won't buy into him as a leader. you look at all the greats, and they were all great leaders in addition to being awesome nfl qb's. that's one of rex's many downfalls and it's becoming more and more apparent, to not only the players, but the coaches too. they've gotten sick of baby sitting him and having to cheer up a grown man.


I bet after this season, people will be saying the same things about Orton. I just don't see what people think are his strong points. If he ends up doing well, I'll bite my words and be happy that Chicago found a good QB.

But the measurement of success crap is not very well thought out. Name me 3 NFL QBs have been successful with bad lines. Rex was successful in 06 when the line blocked, the runningbacks ran, and the WRs caught more than they dropped. He wasn't in 07 when they couldn't block, run, or catch. Same follows true with Favre. He was great for many years, and in 05 or whatever when they lost a few key linemen, he dropped production significantly.

Find me 3 QBs that have been successful with crappy lines and bad personnel, and then maybe I'll rethink your statement.

riderpride
09-03-2008, 08:18 PM
I realy think the Bears only hope this year, is to start Hester at QB

Tankjeep
09-03-2008, 08:18 PM
^^my statement is simple, it ain't compicated.

"even if grossman were to get on a team like new england (i know it won't ever happen, but i'm speaking in terms of personnel and blocking), he still wouldn't be successful."

rex won't be successful period. what's so difficult to understand about that statement. if all rings true....where most think that grossman is done in chitown & may end up else where, then what ever team he gets on.....i say he won't be successful. i merely used new england as an example of a team with great personnel and blocking.

even if did get a team of that caliber, i still don't think he would succeed.

DIE HARD BEAR
09-03-2008, 08:20 PM
Cambo---
You are a rex fan not abears fan. this is a bad situation just like a bad girlfriend (not yours in particular) you make excuses for not matter what they do. Get over it rex is out.

Nothing I have said is made up. Why don't you go to a bears game instead of talking about watching them. I go to 5/year and haven't missed watching one is since about 1998. let along watching them and even going to see the great payton @ soilder field when there really was great tailgating.

Your pathetic rex-affair a bad thing.:cry:

Now his problems were the rain's fault. Got anymore excuses for him!

db75
09-03-2008, 08:59 PM
^^my statement is simple, it ain't compicated.

"even if grossman were to get on a team like new england (i know it won't ever happen, but i'm speaking in terms of personnel and blocking), he still wouldn't be successful."

rex won't be successful period. what's so difficult to understand about that statement. if all rings true....where most think that grossman is done in chitown & may end up else where, then what ever team he gets on.....i say he won't be successful. i merely used new england as an example of a team with great personnel and blocking.

even if did get a team of that caliber, i still don't think he would succeed.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're wrong. Take any QB that has started a significant amount of games (at least a seasons worth), throw them on NE's team from 2003 (I think it was 03...whatever their first championship in the 2000's was), and they will be successful. If you have all the time in the world to work, you have to be incredibly awful at the position to not perform well. Rex is talented at QB, and given time, he does perform well. I feel that Orton's lack of big play capability is going to hinder him in this offense. He'll drop the ball in for 5 yard catches all day, but any QB could do that. When I see him become a significant offensive threat, then I'll stop criticizing his skills. Maybe that day comes, but maybe not. I'd be shocked to see him play more than this and next year in Chicago as a starter.

freaknasty23
09-03-2008, 11:08 PM
Cambo---
You are a rex fan not abears fan. this is a bad situation just like a bad girlfriend (not yours in particular) you make excuses for not matter what they do. Get over it rex is out.

Nothing I have said is made up. Why don't you go to a bears game instead of talking about watching them. I go to 5/year and haven't missed watching one is since about 1998. let along watching them and even going to see the great payton @ soilder field when there really was great tailgating.

Your pathetic rex-affair a bad thing.:cry:

Now his problems were the rain's fault. Got anymore excuses for him!

dude cambo is one of the more knowing people on the board. why does it matter if he watches the games or goes to them? most of the time you see more watching the games than going to them. sure his love for rex is annoying but its no worse than bulldog's pessimisim.

he has got a hundred excuses for why rex isnt starting and they are all equally entertaining :rolleyes: since your a newcomer it happens but its alot easier to just try and get along instead of calling out people.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 11:36 PM
Cambo---
You are a rex fan not abears fan. this is a bad situation just like a bad girlfriend (not yours in particular) you make excuses for not matter what they do. Get over it rex is out.
i am absolutely a bears fan, and a bigger, and more knowledgeable one than you to boot.

i support/ed rex b/c he is clearly the better QB IMO.
and gives the BEARS, a better chance to compete and win.
by actually scoring some points.
thats whats in the best interests of the team.


IMO, and many others, rex was/is the better QB.
im not going out on a limb saying that.

on the topic:
orton's potential is not very high.
very low big play ability.
relatively weak, and inaccurate arm.
and runs a very conservative, low scoring offense.
with limited skill.


Nothing I have said is made up. Why don't you go to a bears game instead of talking about watching them. I go to 5/year and haven't missed watching one is since about 1998. let along watching them and even going to see the great payton @ soilder field when there really was great tailgating.
going to a game does not mean you know what your talking about.
you actually get a better view of the game watching it on TV.




Your pathetic rex-affair a bad thing.:cry:

Now his problems were the rain's fault. Got anymore excuses for him!
that is not an excuse, that is a reason.
it is proven to be much much harder to throw a football when it is a messy downpour.
he was SLIGHTLY outperformed by the great peyton manning that game.
how about you look at some other games too. you see any bears games in 06 like you claim?
then you would know he dominated many teams.
when was the last time you've seen orton do that?
try never.


you claimed kyle orton had a stronger arm than rex grossman.
thats insanely mentally challenged, and false.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 11:42 PM
^^my statement is simple, it ain't compicated.

"even if grossman were to get on a team like new england (i know it won't ever happen, but i'm speaking in terms of personnel and blocking), he still wouldn't be successful."

rex won't be successful period. what's so difficult to understand about that statement. if all rings true....where most think that grossman is done in chitown & may end up else where, then what ever team he gets on.....i say he won't be successful. i merely used new england as an example of a team with great personnel and blocking.

even if did get a team of that caliber, i still don't think he would succeed.
when given time to throw grossman has played like an elite QB in this league.
give him NE's line and he would do very well.

now your speculating even more.
he wont be successful period?
thats why he HAS been successful right?
your speculation is obviously libelous; meant to bad mouth rex, falsely.

gocubs2118
09-03-2008, 11:50 PM
I am willing to give Orton a chance. Whether its because of Orton or not but the Bears are 12-6 with him as our starting QB. Grossman obviously doesn't have the support of his line and just by watching the preseason you can tell that. I am not saying thats right.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 11:59 PM
I am willing to give Orton a chance. Whether its because of Orton or not but the Bears are 12-6 with him as our starting QB. Grossman obviously doesn't have the support of his line and just by watching the preseason you can tell that. I am not saying thats right.

i think thats kind of a misconception about me.

i WILL support orton as our starting QB.
not like those randos at games who boo the starter all the time.
i just wish they would have picked grossman to start, and im very passionate about that.
(b/c hes the better QB...blah, blah, etc...)

hopefully this conservative, run heavy style will work somehow.

azbearfan
09-04-2008, 12:12 AM
Boy, I can't wait for the Bears/Colts game so everyone has something new to whine about................
I've been a Rex fan since he was drafted.............he'll be hot, and then cold. Maybe he'll turn the corner and become a great qb, but Orton beat him.........he beat Rex for the starting job..........so I'll wait and see how he does when it matters..........during a game this season.

monkey balls
09-04-2008, 01:00 AM
yeah actually.
dink and dunk.
limit turnovers.
barely ever pass, so teams are somewhat surprised by the pass.
QB rating isnt effected by the number of times you throw, so him only throwing 15-20 passes a game wont hurt him in QB rating.
doesnt mean we will score much tho.


Isn't that what we saw in 05, and his rating was what about 70

I say his stats for the year based on 16 games will be but I don't think he'll last 16 because the O-Line will get him killed.

2400 YDS
8TDS
12INT

db75
09-04-2008, 01:07 AM
Isn't that what we saw in 05, and his rating was what about 70

I say his stats for the year based on 16 games will be but I don't think he'll last 16 because the O-Line will get him killed.

2400 YDS
8TDS
12INT


Probably about right. I'll give him 2800 yds, 10 TD, 11 INT. ... QB rating probably right around 72.0.

cambovenzi
09-04-2008, 01:12 AM
Isn't that what we saw in 05, and his rating was what about 70

I say his stats for the year based on 16 games will be but I don't think he'll last 16 because the O-Line will get him killed.

2400 YDS
8TDS
12INT

it was 59.7:puke:

yeah that is probably a pretty realistic prediction.
maybe a little lower depending on how many games he possibly misses.

probably going to rely on the run, especially in the redzone, a lot.

monkey balls
09-04-2008, 01:18 AM
it was 59.7:puke:

yeah that is probably a pretty realistic prediction.
maybe a little lower depending on how many games he possibly misses.

probably going to rely on the run, especially in the redzone, a lot.

Ouch, I guess I was being pretty generous

DopieB
09-04-2008, 01:41 AM
It all depends on who he can throw to, give him a week or two, then we will see somewhat

babbaman
09-04-2008, 11:16 AM
thats just ignorant.
he has nowhere near as strong an arm as grossman.
its not close. almost anyone could tell you that.

what you want lovie to say, he has a weak arm?
strong isnt a set in stone type of word.
strong compared to what?
my grandmother? yeah. grossman? NO...

yeah, he probably got a little better w/ experience.
i dont deny that.
that doesnt make him good now.
he is still most likely a below average QB.

also grossman has this thing called touch, he doesnt have to bullet it everytime, or lob it up, to make it work.

I would take Clark's word over yours considering he's caught passes from all of the Bears QBs. Regardless, I believe this was about Orton's potential. Your argument was "he doesn't have a very strong arm and he's shown relatively little potential". (and this is based off of a rookie season and three games last year & this preseason?). My point was he can make all the throws he needs to make. My "strong arm" argument was not even my words, dude, since I have never first hand caught a pass from either one. Those quotes just backed up my point. A strong arm has something to do with potential but not everything. How smart is the QB? How well can he read defenses? Will he STEP UP in the pocket or fall backwards? If "The strongest arm on the team" constitutes the best QB then Grossman may very well be the best QB on the team and Montana must have been the worst QB in SF. Too bad there is more to being a QB than just that. And that, my friend, is where he falls behind IMO. I think there is more upside for Orton especially as he gains more experience. He has shown IMPROVEMENT in his reads, defense recognition, stepping up in the pocket, which is all you can ask for and that is why there is potential. And this improvement happened while getting the fewest amount of reps of all the QBs. Imagine how he MIGHT improve with MORE Practice? Grossman, having the majority of the reps has shown little to no improvement. Of course, he didn't need to since he was anointed the starter. What was his incentive? He seems to have plateaued IMO. This is not meant as a dig against Grossman, it is what it is, but just because you are a Grossman apologist does not mean that Orton has little to no potential. The point of the entire thread.

Now if Ron Turner can figure out how to utilize the weapons we have better, we might see some things this year:pray:

Tankjeep
09-04-2008, 11:56 AM
I would take Clark's word over yours considering he's caught passes from all of the Bears QBs. Regardless, I believe this was about Orton's potential. Your argument was "he doesn't have a very strong arm and he's shown relatively little potential". (and this is based off of a rookie season and three games last year & this preseason?). My point was he can make all the throws he needs to make. My "strong arm" argument was not even my words, dude, since I have never first hand caught a pass from either one. Those quotes just backed up my point. A strong arm has something to do with potential but not everything. How smart is the QB? How well can he read defenses? Will he STEP UP in the pocket or fall backwards? If "The strongest arm on the team" constitutes the best QB then Grossman may very well be the best QB on the team and Montana must have been the worst QB in SF. Too bad there is more to being a QB than just that. And that, my friend, is where he falls behind IMO. I think there is more upside for Orton especially as he gains more experience. He has shown IMPROVEMENT in his reads, defense recognition, stepping up in the pocket, which is all you can ask for and that is why there is potential. And this improvement happened while getting the fewest amount of reps of all the QBs. Imagine how he MIGHT improve with MORE Practice? Grossman, having the majority of the reps has shown little to no improvement. Of course, he didn't need to since he was anointed the starter. What was his incentive? He seems to have plateaued IMO. This is not meant as a dig against Grossman, it is what it is, but just because you are a Grossman apologist does not mean that Orton has little to no potential. The point of the entire thread.

Now if Ron Turner can figure out how to utilize the weapons we have better, we might see some things this year:pray:

nicely put.

ImGoinToJackson
09-04-2008, 01:12 PM
If Orton can learn to move in the pocket to avoid the 1st pass rusher and Turner can actually make the defense guess, then 2500yds, 15TDs, 11 INTs. Orton has learned to throw the checkdown pass. He has also developed some timing w/ our receivers. His height, as well as his arm strength are better than Grossman (I just disagree w/ you here Cambo).
If he plays the role of sitting duck in our pitiful pocket he'll be injured severely and soon. I'm talking about stepping into throws, side-stepping, running up threw the pocket to throw to outlet and recovering receivers. This man has no business trying to break for the open field; his feet appear to be magentized to the turf.
Weighing in on the Grossman debate, I have wanted him to succeed for so long. Spurrier leaving him in college hurt b/c Spurrier tends to think for his QBs and this is why they never succeed in the NFL; they never think for themselves. It also began an odd journey of Rex having to learn too many offenses from a long list of different oC's until Ron Turner came to our town.I believe his early career misfortune has stunted his developmental growth. If Rex can't make the 1st read, he becomes afraid of the impending contact and throws off his back foot b/c he wants to backpeddle and usually throws into trouble. Rex probably has the best touch of any QB to ever play for da Bears, and his first read throw timing is great, as long as it is there for him. His height affects his play and this becomes obvious when he tries to stretch the pocket backwards, which usually results in running into where the pass protectors are trying to push the ends and blitzers and costs us offensively about 5 yds more per sack. I remember a moment in a game last year towards the end of the season where Rex finally ran up into the pocket, broke into open field and gained about 6 yds on the broken play. We had to punt but he kinda spiked the ball like he did something great. I believe in retrospect this was Rex finally overcoming his fear of the pass rush and realizing he can move foward on the field w/ his footwork.
If he'll go back to that tape, work on his stepping into the throws and improve his pocket wiggle, accept the checkdowns as viable options, Rex can still be a QB worth keeping for 10 more yrs. Either way, I wish him all the best, and I continue to pray for the Bears to finally have that franchise QB. Hell, maybe its Mr. Hanie... I certainly don't know

cambovenzi
09-04-2008, 03:44 PM
I would take Clark's word over yours considering he's caught passes from all of the Bears QBs. Regardless, I believe this was about Orton's potential. Your argument was "he doesn't have a very strong arm and he's shown relatively little potential". (and this is based off of a rookie season and three games last year & this preseason?). My point was he can make all the throws he needs to make. My "strong arm" argument was not even my words, dude, since I have never first hand caught a pass from either one. Those quotes just backed up my point. A strong arm has something to do with potential but not everything. How smart is the QB? How well can he read defenses? Will he STEP UP in the pocket or fall backwards? If "The strongest arm on the team" constitutes the best QB then Grossman may very well be the best QB on the team and Montana must have been the worst QB in SF. Too bad there is more to being a QB than just that. And that, my friend, is where he falls behind IMO. I think there is more upside for Orton especially as he gains more experience. He has shown IMPROVEMENT in his reads, defense recognition, stepping up in the pocket, which is all you can ask for and that is why there is potential. And this improvement happened while getting the fewest amount of reps of all the QBs. Imagine how he MIGHT improve with MORE Practice? Grossman, having the majority of the reps has shown little to no improvement. Of course, he didn't need to since he was anointed the starter. What was his incentive? He seems to have plateaued IMO. This is not meant as a dig against Grossman, it is what it is, but just because you are a Grossman apologist does not mean that Orton has little to no potential. The point of the entire thread.

Now if Ron Turner can figure out how to utilize the weapons we have better, we might see some things this year:pray:

lol.
i still cannot believe you think ortons arm is stronger.
i thought EVERYONE knew rex had a stronger arm.
watch them play.

always bulleting passes to a tightend does not mean you have a stronger arm.

and YES, orton has very little potential.
you think hes going to dominate and be an elite QB? lol.
he does not have that potential.
right now he is a below average QB, and probably wont ever be better than average.
relatively weak arm, and even if he manages to get the ball out there, its usually very inaccurate.

am I the one claiming arm strength alone makes you better?
NO...
there are other reasons.
like accuracy;)
but i do not sit here and let you say orton has a stronger arm, when that is obviously false.

babbaman
09-04-2008, 07:06 PM
lol.
i still cannot believe you think ortons arm is stronger.
i thought EVERYONE knew rex had a stronger arm.
watch them play.

always bulleting passes to a tightend does not mean you have a stronger arm.

and YES, orton has very little potential.
you think hes going to dominate and be an elite QB? lol.
he does not have that potential.
right now he is a below average QB, and probably wont ever be better than average.
relatively weak arm, and even if he manages to get the ball out there, its usually very inaccurate.

am I the one claiming arm strength alone makes you better?
NO...
there are other reasons.
like accuracy;)
but i do not sit here and let you say orton has a stronger arm, when that is obviously false.



No. I said he has a strong enough arm to make all the throws. But when someone says

"he doesnt have a very strong arm." - Your reason why he doesn't have potential.

"and hes shown relatively little potential." - Your opinion based on the above reason

"i dont think he can be considered even an average QB at this point." - Again, an opinion, not based on anything else stated so it is still assumed arm strength

"not performing, and simply being not old are not signs he will do good." - well definitely not performing is a sign he is not doing well and being young I would think would mean that he hasn't reached his...wait for it...peak yet(You thought I was going to say "potential" didn't you?)

The strongest arm lines are quotes from others. You can write to them about why they think Orton has a stronger arm. Better yet, Dez Clark is on the radio on WSCR 670 and call and just ask him. He is the one on record for saying that. I don't really care. Like I said, There are reasons to believe that Orton has improved already with only third string reps and therefore has the potential to get even better with more reps. One would tend to think that practice makes one better. He has the height to see from the QB position. He has a strong enough arm for the position; You can tell he's been focused mentally and seems much more relaxed and confident in the huddle and at the line. He's taken some sacks, but I was actually a little bit surprised by how well he handled the pressure, sidestepped/stepped up and even more importantly identified the defense and called out the correct protection schemes in order to get more time. He has improved since he's been in the league.

2005 Rookie Season - 59.7 Passer rating - 51.6% Accuracy

2006 - Didn't play

2007 - 73.9 Passer Rating - 53.8% Accuracy and almost a yard more per play. Sure looks like improvement to me (even in accuracy...your other reason why he shows no potential.)

2008 - preseason (yeah I know, but still) - 76.4 Passer Rating - 63.2% Accuracy

Whether you want to take out the 2008 season or not, you can see he is getting better. So what you are telling me is that he has NO potential when all he has done is gotten better so far in his carreer in subsequent years? You're saying he has reached his peak? Never to get better ever again with more practice? I say let him keep going until he stops improving. Why not?

Hey, I am not saying he is the greatest QB to ever come through here, but I do see potential and if his work ethic stays the same as it has been there is no reason to believe he has peaked (i.e. reached his potential).

Meanwhile Caleb Hanie sits under the wings for this year and next year (possibly depending on how Orton does this year) and year 3 Hanie possibly starts. (Unless Orton's POTENTIAL is actually greater than expected, in which case we keep him) All the while we get quality young O-Lineman for the next two years high in the draft. Muahahaha!


Go Bears!

Tankjeep
09-04-2008, 07:27 PM
^again, nicely put but you are wasting your breath on cambo....he's got such a big one for rex it's ridiculous.

cambovenzi
09-04-2008, 11:11 PM
No. I said he has a strong enough arm to make all the throws. But when someone says

"he doesnt have a very strong arm." - Your reason why he doesn't have potential.

"and hes shown relatively little potential." - Your opinion based on the above reason

"i dont think he can be considered even an average QB at this point." - Again, an opinion, not based on anything else stated so it is still assumed arm strength

"not performing, and simply being not old are not signs he will do good." - well definitely not performing is a sign he is not doing well and being young I would think would mean that he hasn't reached his...wait for it...peak yet(You thought I was going to say "potential" didn't you?)

The strongest arm lines are quotes from others. You can write to them about why they think Orton has a stronger arm. Better yet, Dez Clark is on the radio on WSCR 670 and call and just ask him. He is the one on record for saying that. I don't really care. Like I said, There are reasons to believe that Orton has improved already with only third string reps and therefore has the potential to get even better with more reps. One would tend to think that practice makes one better. He has the height to see from the QB position. He has a strong enough arm for the position; You can tell he's been focused mentally and seems much more relaxed and confident in the huddle and at the line. He's taken some sacks, but I was actually a little bit surprised by how well he handled the pressure, sidestepped/stepped up and even more importantly identified the defense and called out the correct protection schemes in order to get more time. He has improved since he's been in the league.

2005 Rookie Season - 59.7 Passer rating - 51.6% Accuracy

2006 - Didn't play

2007 - 73.9 Passer Rating - 53.8% Accuracy and almost a yard more per play. Sure looks like improvement to me (even in accuracy...your other reason why he shows no potential.)

2008 - preseason (yeah I know, but still) - 76.4 Passer Rating - 63.2% Accuracy

Whether you want to take out the 2008 season or not, you can see he is getting better. So what you are telling me is that he has NO potential when all he has done is gotten better so far in his carreer in subsequent years? You're saying he has reached his peak? Never to get better ever again with more practice? I say let him keep going until he stops improving. Why not?

Hey, I am not saying he is the greatest QB to ever come through here, but I do see potential and if his work ethic stays the same as it has been there is no reason to believe he has peaked (i.e. reached his potential).

Meanwhile Caleb Hanie sits under the wings for this year and next year (possibly depending on how Orton does this year) and year 3 Hanie possibly starts. (Unless Orton's POTENTIAL is actually greater than expected, in which case we keep him) All the while we get quality young O-Lineman for the next two years high in the draft. Muahahaha!


Go Bears!

what kind of potential do you see in him? potential compared to what?

the word is comparative and subjective.(if thats the word im looking for.)
you could say he has lots of potential.
but potential to be a very good QB? more than probably not.
he is a below average QB, who doesnt look he will amount like much.
having a weak, and inaccurate arm does not help.

you look at small passing number improvement from his rookie year to last years 3 games.
yes, he got a little better. but it still wasnt good.
and it was against WEAK pass defending teams.
you have to take that into account.

Fuselage
09-05-2008, 12:22 PM
The potential is there. In his '05 season, Orton proved he could down about 12 shots per hour with only about 15% spillage. Now that he knows the system better, and isn't playing with a basic drink package, I think he can get it up to about 16 shots per hour with 8% spillage. That's his top end performance. As the season wears him down, his beard will proportionally grow enough to retain the excess spillage. So I see him ending the season with an average of about 14 shots with about 10% spillage. In my opinion, that's a winning combination.

babbaman
09-05-2008, 12:56 PM
^again, nicely put but you are wasting your breath on cambo....he's got such a big one for rex it's ridiculous.

So it seems. I thought this thread was about Orton's potential. He said he had none. I was just trying to offer some hope and show he actually DOES have potential. I guess he is just blinded by his love for Rex, which actually has nothing to do with Orton's potential.

cambovenzi
09-05-2008, 01:06 PM
So it seems. I thought this thread was about Orton's potential. He said he had none. I was just trying to offer some hope and show he actually DOES have potential. I guess he is just blinded by his love for Rex, which actually has nothing to do with Orton's potential.

not "none".
very little.

what do you honestly expect from orton?
if its realistic, it is very little potential.
if its not realistic, itll be funny to see.

Bulldog76
09-05-2008, 01:41 PM
Cambo.. there was an article posted on another thread with a handful of players saying that Orton has the strongest arm on the team... Why would anyone take your opinion on that subject over the people that actually catch passes from Orton??

I don't think Orton's arm is "weak" and he does use better mechanics and delivers the ball from a higher release point...and he has shown a better ability on his pre-snap reads throughout the pre-season...

Let's not blame everything on the o-line...Rex needs to read some of those blitzes in advance and communicate to his lineman and receivers on how to adjust and/or give them a heads up...

Overall, the offense as a whole needs to be rebuilt on the o-line and at wide receiver, so I wouldn't expect either QB to play well...

cambovenzi
09-05-2008, 01:46 PM
Cambo.. there was an article posted on another thread with a handful of players saying that Orton has the strongest arm on the team... Why would anyone take your opinion on that subject over the people that actually catch passes from Orton??

I don't think Orton's arm is "weak" and he does use better mechanics and delivers the ball from a higher release point...and he has shown a better ability on his pre-snap reads throughout the pre-season...

Let's not blame everything on the o-line...Rex needs to read some of those blitzes in advance and communicate to his lineman and receivers on how to adjust and/or give them a heads up...

Overall, the offense as a whole needs to be rebuilt on the o-line and at wide receiver, so I wouldn't expect either WR to play well...
oh, my...
i cant believe you think orton has a stronger arm.
have you seen them play?
i thought you did, until now.

i dont blame everything on the Oline, but when they dont block the DE's, theres not much rex can do. especially if its 3rd down and long.

btw that completely ignored my question about his potential.
what do you expect from him?

Bulldog76
09-05-2008, 02:08 PM
18's potential is actually pretty high...He has good size a quick release (not as quick as rex's) and he can throw with accuracy up to about 35 yards...which in our offense is about as deep as you'll ever need to throw it..

What hinders his potential is exactly what most people have pointed out... Bad offensive line making him throw on the run, which is not a strog suit by any means...Mediocre WRs who will drop passes on him, which with the limited number of attempts and clean throws he will get will cost him in his QB rating...and his mobility is that of a three toed sloth, so he won't be able to scramble when a play breaks down...

However, if Turner can put more shotgun snaps into the offense this year he will be more likely to succeed since that will give him more time to read the defense and see the blitz coming...

Overall potential...top 23 QB in the league...realistically he won't start the entire season as a result of injury or performance...Rex will get the call, and then Rex will give the middle finger to JA, Lovie and Ron Turner on his way to San Fran, Minnesota or Kansas City next year...leaving us with Caleb Hanie and neckbeard in yet another quarterback competition opening the season...yippee

Since you missed it posted on page two of this thread...

cambovenzi
09-05-2008, 02:16 PM
top 23 QB.
how exciting.
and i dont think hes even that good.

Bulldog76
09-05-2008, 02:22 PM
...and I have seen them play... I don't think Orton's arm is weak, I think at some points he was indecisive on his reads and that takes away from the "zip" on the ball...He threw the ball all over the place at Purdue, which isn't a dink and dunk offense.

...Rex has a strong arm, I'm not taking that away from him, but he constantly throws off his back foot which takes away from his arm strength and he throws into double/triple coverage too often...I don't care who you are or how strong your arm is...if you are throwing to the wrong team, it isn't going to end well...and yes, I know Rex has a comparable INT ratio to Orton, and I did want Grossman to start, but I'm not gonna make stuff up about Orton after the fact...

Get behind the kid and see what he can do... don't act like a five year old who had his toy taken away.

Soop
09-05-2008, 02:27 PM
Get behind the kid and see what he can do... don't act like a five year old who had his toy taken away.

:laugh2: Funniest thing you ever said. Cambo, your turn.

Bulldog76
09-05-2008, 02:31 PM
top 23 QB.
how exciting.
and i dont think hes even that good.

Brady, Manning, Romo, Brees, Palmer, Roethlisberger, Manning, Anderson, McNabb, Cutler, Hasselback, Favre, Garrard, Bulger, Rivers, Schaub, Warner, Delhomme, Kitna, Ryan, Garcia, Russell, Edwards ...all have a seemingly higher upside this season than Orton or Grossman

However, if Orton outplays O'Sullivan,Croyle, Jackson, Pennington, Rodgers, Campbell and Vince Young... I would think he would have shown enough to warrant another season to improve upon himself...

Considering Garcia/Favre/Bulger/Warner/Delhomme are all getting older and seeing their skills disapate, I wouldn't be too shocked if after a good year this year and the right moves in the offseason, he could overtake them by the end of next year... Which would be a major step in the right directon and he would be a top 18 QB in the league, which is about where his potential will max out... Combine that with a solid defense, great special teams and an improved o-line and wide receivers we could contend.

The key will be Orton's progress this year...If he flops, than we are back to square one and likely another major rebuilding project, as a result of not drafting/signing/developing offensive lineman and wide receivers...

Damn...with optimism like this I would be confused with sooper...lol

Bulldog76
09-05-2008, 02:32 PM
And considering you don't want to trade for a young QB entering his prime, and you don't see any can't miss prospects in the draft... I have to ask, who do you think would be a better alternative...assuming Rex leaves the team after this season.

babbaman
09-05-2008, 03:26 PM
what kind of potential do you see in him? potential compared to what?

the word is comparative and subjective.(if thats the word im looking for.)
you could say he has lots of potential.
but potential to be a very good QB? more than probably not.
he is a below average QB, who doesnt look he will amount like much.
having a weak, and inaccurate arm does not help.

you look at small passing number improvement from his rookie year to last years 3 games.
yes, he got a little better. but it still wasnt good.
and it was against WEAK pass defending teams.
you have to take that into account.

I guess you would need to define "very good QB" in solid numbers for me to determine if I think that he has the potential to be a "very good QB" or not. The average QB rating in 07 was 83.5. So for him to be average he needs to be right around there, right? I can see that being absolutely attainable by him but I will take that a step further and even go on to say that he will be above average (and by saying that I mean more than just a serviceable QB) by the 09 season. Especially after getting 1st string reps as long as he keeps up his mental studies as well and continues to improve in that aspect of the QB position. Peyton Manning is arguably one of the best QBs in the game and yet he never takes what he is for granted and continues to strive to be even better. This is what we need from Orton or from Grossman for that matter. Peyton's work ethic in the film room and on the sidelines.

You are correct in saying that having a weak and innaccurate arm would not help, except that I believe he has a strong enough arm to make any throw that a NFL QB is required to make. If you don't think so then we can agree to disagree on that point. Accuracy comes with repetition and timing. His accuracy has improved from his rookie year with third string reps. I am not sure you caught that, so let me repeat...3rd string reps. Meaning not very many and not with the first team. I am sure it would have been a greater improvement had he had more practice reps with the starting receivers.

You are discounting improvement because it wasn't drastic?!? I am actually impressed that he was even able to improve at all considering the circumstances. You mention a "small passing number improvement from his rookie year to" 3 games last year. So this guy actually improved after not playing for almost 2 years with very limited practice time!!!! How does one improve when not being able to even practice? Very hard to do. I didn't want to go here but, for the sake of comparing, look at the starting QB from these same two years. He had the most practice reps with the starters and yet he failed to improve, strongest arm on the team or not. He actually declined in his performance based on QB rating. Sure our O-Line sucked but that's when the QB needs to step up and understand what he's seeing on defense and call the right protections. I am not saying there are no blown assignments ever or just plain getting beat out (Good Ol Miller) but a strong arm does nothing for you if you don't have time to use it. Remember Orton's rookie year when Kreutz slapped his hand and corrected him as he was trying to point out the middle linebacker? LOL...that was funny and I remember laughing about it. Orton's not that same guy anymore. This mental aspect of the game is where I have seen the most improvement in Orton. Now all he needs to do is translate that to his physical performance and we'll see where that takes him. We have this year and next to see how well he does. I am guessing he will do better than what we have seen since our QB carousel started around the same time as Favre started killing us, and I would be willing to bet that he's better than a 66.4 at the very least. And any improvement is good for the Bears.

I think where our disconnect in our point of views is that you place too much emphasis on the physical aspects of the game and not enough on the mental aspects of the game especially at the QB position. And you probably think the reverse of me. But I will take a "control the clock smash mouth running game with high percentage dink and dunk passes long enough just to get the first down when required" over a "score hard and fast big play offense" that would give our defense very little time to rest. I think Orton can do that best with even the potential of the big play here and there just to keep 'em honest.


Go Bears!

babbaman
09-05-2008, 03:30 PM
Cambo.. there was an article posted on another thread with a handful of players saying that Orton has the strongest arm on the team... Why would anyone take your opinion on that subject over the people that actually catch passes from Orton??

I don't think Orton's arm is "weak" and he does use better mechanics and delivers the ball from a higher release point...and he has shown a better ability on his pre-snap reads throughout the pre-season...

Let's not blame everything on the o-line...Rex needs to read some of those blitzes in advance and communicate to his lineman and receivers on how to adjust and/or give them a heads up...

Overall, the offense as a whole needs to be rebuilt on the o-line and at wide receiver, so I wouldn't expect either QB to play well...

Agreed. Considering the O-line situation, I think we have the QB in there that is better mentally prepared because that is all he has been able to do over the past two years. It seems like he made the most of it IMO.

babbaman
09-05-2008, 03:43 PM
The potential is there. In his '05 season, Orton proved he could down about 12 shots per hour with only about 15% spillage. Now that he knows the system better, and isn't playing with a basic drink package, I think he can get it up to about 16 shots per hour with 8% spillage. That's his top end performance. As the season wears him down, his beard will proportionally grow enough to retain the excess spillage. So I see him ending the season with an average of about 14 shots with about 10% spillage. In my opinion, that's a winning combination.

LOL....Too funny!!

babbaman
09-05-2008, 03:49 PM
Brady, Manning, Romo, Brees, Palmer, Roethlisberger, Manning, Anderson, McNabb, Cutler, Hasselback, Favre, Garrard, Bulger, Rivers, Schaub, Warner, Delhomme, Kitna, Ryan, Garcia, Russell, Edwards ...all have a seemingly higher upside this season than Orton or Grossman

However, if Orton outplays O'Sullivan,Croyle, Jackson, Pennington, Rodgers, Campbell and Vince Young... I would think he would have shown enough to warrant another season to improve upon himself...

Considering Garcia/Favre/Bulger/Warner/Delhomme are all getting older and seeing their skills disapate, I wouldn't be too shocked if after a good year this year and the right moves in the offseason, he could overtake them by the end of next year... Which would be a major step in the right directon and he would be a top 18 QB in the league, which is about where his potential will max out... Combine that with a solid defense, great special teams and an improved o-line and wide receivers we could contend.

The key will be Orton's progress this year...If he flops, than we are back to square one and likely another major rebuilding project, as a result of not drafting/signing/developing offensive lineman and wide receivers...

Damn...with optimism like this I would be confused with sooper...lol

Yeah that sounds about right. We don't need a top tier QB with our other phases the way they are built (barring our defense looking like they just got paid or something.) Just a solid one.

cambovenzi
09-05-2008, 04:51 PM
i dont think he will get a 83.5 QB rating.
it will be maybe 70's IMO, is he does good for him.
and even if the QB rtng is up there, the passing offense will still be below average b/c he is too conservative.

babbaman
09-05-2008, 05:45 PM
i dont think he will get a 83.5 QB rating.
it will be maybe 70's IMO, is he does good for him.
and even if the QB rtng is up there, the passing offense will still be below average b/c he is too conservative.

I personally think it's within his potential, but I can live with a QB in the upper 70's as long as he helps keep our defense off the field, makes a play or two, and helps win games. Whether that be Orton OR Grossman OR Hanie for that matter. We just need consistency at that position.

Oh, and a complete O-Line. I think we need that as well. I am hoping they will allay my doubts.

Go Bears!

Tankjeep
09-05-2008, 05:54 PM
regardless of who is at the qb spot, with this o-line....it's going to be a long season. so having a qb rating around the 70's would be more reasonable than obtaining the league average.

hopefully i'm wrong and like you said babbaman, the offense helps the defense rest.

ry31walsh
09-06-2008, 03:56 PM
My whole point of the post is that its close to impossible to know what a players potential will be or if he will ever reach it. There is know way of knowing how much better a player can get throughout an NFL career. If that was true guys like Alex Smith, and Tim Couch wouldn't be first overal picks. and guys like Derrick Anderson and Tom Brady wouldn't be 6th round picks.

The whole Orton doesn't have a good arm just isn't true. Grossman has a special arm and Ortons isn't as good that doesn't mean he has a bad one. I keep draft magazines every year, and all the scouting reports on Orton are that he has an NFL arm and can make all the throws. Though it should be noted he was said to throw a terrible long ball with bad accuracy. But I think Orton will surprise a lot of people. I also think the Line won't play as bad people think. I rewatched the preseasons games and Grossman was getting killed because he wasn't get rid of the ball it wasn't the lines fall. In the seatle game, both of the sacks came with the other team blitzing three LBs. So to blame 5 lineman for not blocking 7 guys is kind of foolish. Grossman has to read that and hit the open guy, with 3 LBs blitzing someone should be open.

cambovenzi
09-06-2008, 04:01 PM
My whole point of the post is that its close to impossible to know what a players potential will be or if he will ever reach it. There is know way of knowing how much better a player can get throughout an NFL career. If that was true guys like Alex Smith, and Tim Couch wouldn't be first overal picks. and guys like Derrick Anderson and Tom Brady wouldn't be 6th round picks.

The whole Orton doesn't have a good arm just isn't true. Grossman has a special arm and Ortons isn't as good that doesn't mean he has a bad one. I keep draft magazines every year, and all the scouting reports on Orton are that he has an NFL arm and can make all the throws. Though it should be noted he was said to throw a terrible long ball with bad accuracy. But I think Orton will surprise a lot of people. I also think the Line won't play as bad people think. I rewatched the preseasons games and Grossman was getting killed because he wasn't get rid of the ball it wasn't the lines fall. In the seatle game, both of the sacks came with the other team blitzing three LBs. So to blame 5 lineman for not blocking 7 guys is kind of foolish. Grossman has to read that and hit the open guy, with 3 LBs blitzing someone should be open.

you should watch more tape again.
on multiple occasions the tackles didnt block the DE's.
and on other occasions, even if there was a blitz, they still blew blocking assignments.

SoxFanSince63
09-07-2008, 12:36 PM
I think a lot of fans are quick to judge players and never really considered that most players get better as time goes on. Out of any position in football QB seems to take the longest to develop by far. But for some reason Orton gets judged based on a rookie year, and I really don't understand why? Its pretty much common knowledge that most rookie QBs just aren't ready for the NFL. Most player sit a year to a couple and learn. If you look at the top QBs 20 QBs stats wise only Payton Manning started every game as a rookie. Big Ben is the only player who started more then 8 games as a rookie. If you look at most players they took a couple of years before they even got a shot to play. I think a lot of people look at Orton and act like we know what he is. The point of this post isn't that Orton's going to be a superstar. But if you look at guys that have been solid QBs, a lot of them took a couple of years to develope before they started playing well. Guys like Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck were actually pretty bad when they first started.

Orton is currently 25, which makes him the same age as guys like Derrick Anderson, Vince Young, Jay Cutler, and a year younger then guys like Phillip Rivers and Jason Cambell. If compared age wise at 25 Tony Romo had never thrown a single pass in the NFL. I guess my question is how come there isn't a more optimistic look on Orton as a QB. Grossman played well enough to keep his job IMO up until this season. So its not like you can say well if Orton was that good he would have started before this year. I don't know I just don't get why everyone's like Ortons just an average QB. Maybe he is I don't know but at 25 and only really playing as a rookie and it seems like a knock against him. Like Orton rookie play was worse the not playing at all. QB's seem to break out in some crazy ways, and all different places. Lot of guys struggle early in there careers like Drew Brees and Matt Hasslebeck. I actually am somewhat excited to see what Orton can do. Maybe he ends up being terrible I don't know. But at this point I'm not sure anyone really knows what Ortons full potential can be.

He can guzzle a bottle of Jack in 52 seconds! Shooting for 40!

Sox Appeal
09-07-2008, 02:50 PM
He can guzzle a bottle of Jack in 52 seconds! Shooting for 40!

LOL. :laugh2:

Tankjeep
09-08-2008, 10:59 AM
My whole point of the post is that its close to impossible to know what a players potential will be or if he will ever reach it. There is know way of knowing how much better a player can get throughout an NFL career. If that was true guys like Alex Smith, and Tim Couch wouldn't be first overal picks. and guys like Derrick Anderson and Tom Brady wouldn't be 6th round picks.

The whole Orton doesn't have a good arm just isn't true. Grossman has a special arm and Ortons isn't as good that doesn't mean he has a bad one. I keep draft magazines every year, and all the scouting reports on Orton are that he has an NFL arm and can make all the throws. Though it should be noted he was said to throw a terrible long ball with bad accuracy. But I think Orton will surprise a lot of people. I also think the Line won't play as bad people think. I rewatched the preseasons games and Grossman was getting killed because he wasn't get rid of the ball it wasn't the lines fall. In the seatle game, both of the sacks came with the other team blitzing three LBs. So to blame 5 lineman for not blocking 7 guys is kind of foolish. Grossman has to read that and hit the open guy, with 3 LBs blitzing someone should be open.


the best thing to do is wait and see what happens. you can argue til you're blue in the face.....you aren't going to change the rex lovers opinions.

cambovenzi
09-08-2008, 03:52 PM
the best thing to do is wait and see what happens. you can argue til you're blue in the face.....you aren't going to change the rex lovers opinions.

lol.
if tehre is a good point or something then yeah, you could.
150 yards and 0 tds will not do it.

freaknasty23
09-08-2008, 03:57 PM
lol.
if tehre is a good point or something then yeah, you could.
150 yards and 0 tds will not do it.

better than 0-0 0 yards with a cold tush!:smoking:

Doogolas
09-08-2008, 08:42 PM
better than 0-0 0 yards with a cold tush!:smoking:

Why was he cold?

dabears34ft
09-08-2008, 09:20 PM
the best thing to do is wait and see what happens. you can argue til you're blue in the face.....you aren't going to change the rex lovers opinions.

It's hard to believe there is such a thing as a Rex lover. He folds under pressure as bad as Ryan Leaf. I saw that in college vs. Ole Miss in 2002. If your losing with Sexy Rexy at QB, you might as well pack it in.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/players/7323/

That being said I was extremely pleased with Kyle Orton. He only had 3 passes all game that made me a little angry and none cost us anything. The first was on that over the middle pass to Hester on 3rd down right into Triple coverage. Than the long pass that was dropped for the pick. And he through one into the flats that hung up a little to long. Eliminate those 3 plays and he played a great clock managing game. That is all our Defense asks for.

redwhitenblue
09-08-2008, 09:22 PM
He folds under pressure as bad as Ryan LeafHow quick the "fans" forget.

Doogolas
09-08-2008, 09:30 PM
It's hard to believe there is such a thing as a Rex lover. He folds under pressure as bad as Ryan Leaf. I saw that in college vs. Ole Miss in 2002. If your losing with Sexy Rexy at QB, you might as well pack it in.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/players/7323/

That being said I was extremely pleased with Kyle Orton. He only had 3 passes all game that made me a little angry and none cost us anything. The first was on that over the middle pass to Hester on 3rd down right into Triple coverage. Than the long pass that was dropped for the pick. And he through one into the flats that hung up a little to long. Eliminate those 3 plays and he played a great clock managing game. That is all our Defense asks for.

The play of Orton got us, what, three points? The easy chip-in field goal he set us up for. The rest was Forte and the defense.

redwhitenblue
09-08-2008, 09:40 PM
Orton=Sean Marshall

Loved by some, revealed and hated by most eventually

cambovenzi
09-08-2008, 11:13 PM
LOL@ looking at 1 college game how many years ago.
orton is a nobody, who hands the ball off.
grossman can actually take over some games sometimes, and bring us back if losing.

its called use more conservative playcalling if you dont want risky plays, and turnovers when your winning or tied.
not put in a worse QB, and be forced into more conservative playcalling.

DamnGoat
09-08-2008, 11:19 PM
Honestly, the best we can hope for is for the running game to be amazing and Orton not to screw up.

We'll be in trouble if we get down and expect him to throw a lot to get back into it. That's just playing with fire.

Doogolas
09-08-2008, 11:37 PM
Honestly, the best we can hope for is for the running game to be amazing and Orton not to screw up.

We'll be in trouble if we get down and expect him to throw a lot to get back into it. That's just playing with fire.

Eh, more like playing with failure :rimshot:

dabears34ft
09-08-2008, 11:40 PM
LOL@ looking at 1 college game how many years ago.
orton is a nobody, who hands the ball off.
grossman can actually take over some games sometimes, and bring us back if losing.

its called use more conservative playcalling if you dont want risky plays, and turnovers when your winning or tied.
not put in a worse QB, and be forced into more conservative playcalling.

it defn. wasnt just one college game though. I just used the one that stood out to me the most when I watched that game. That game is just a good example of bad Rex. You can't have a QB in the NFL who folds under pressure. He does and he has shown this many times. Yeah he might have great raw talent, but if you can't harness that than you will never succeed in this league. And you say he can bring us back from behind. First off his play is usually what put us behind. Second, when Grossman plays from behind he throws out all fundamentals of the game and launches up prayers that usually get intercepted. Orton is not by any means a great QB but he won't lose us games like Grossman has. He made alot of quality throws yesterday and not to many bad ones. The bears have a dink and dunk pass, power running offense. Grossman is a gunslinger who for some reason can't play in this offense. Orton can plain and simple.

dabears34ft
09-08-2008, 11:44 PM
and I'm not saying I think Orton is the bears QB of the future cuz hes not. I'm just saying he is better in this offense than GrossMan.

cambovenzi
09-08-2008, 11:46 PM
it defn. wasnt just one college game though. I just used the one that stood out to me the most when I watched that game. That game is just a good example of bad Rex. You can't have a QB in the NFL who folds under pressure. He does and he has shown this many times. Yeah he might have great raw talent, but if you can't harness that than you will never succeed in this league. And you say he can bring us back from behind. First off his play is usually what put us behind. Second, when Grossman plays from behind he throws out all fundamentals of the game and launches up prayers that usually get intercepted. Orton is not by any means a great QB but he won't lose us games like Grossman has. He made alot of quality throws yesterday and not to many bad ones. The bears have a dink and dunk pass, power running offense. Grossman is a gunslinger who for some reason can't play in this offense. Orton can plain and simple.

man he must really suck from what you say.:rolleyes:
thats why he actually scores sometimes right?(unlike some other people that are currently starting)
yeah, its not all good. but a lot of times he is.
im sure grossman can hand off just as well as orton can.
and is a legit QB threat.

we're going to need some good QB play alot of times this year, and orton wont cut it.

GottaLoveCubs
09-09-2008, 07:00 AM
Orton only threw the ball 21 times in the game because he only needed to throw that many times. We were leading damn near the entire game. What do you do when you have the lead and the running game is working well??? YOU RUN!! Thats bears football. When they did open it up a little bit for Orton, he showed that he could make the throws. Orton played well in the game, took what the defense gave them and had a better QB rating than Manning in the game. You guys are all about that QB rating so I'm throwing that out there. Before yesterdays games, he had the 11th best QB rating in the league. And for the guy who said Orton only produced 3 points, that is crap. He made very nice passes to Clark and Olsen to produce 3 before the half, and then the TD by McKie.
Why would we have passed more and risk putting the colts right back in the game??? That's what they would have done for Rex and thats why we would have lost that game if Rex was the QB. Our Defense was playing amazing, we were winning, all we needed was 1st downs and no turnovers. Rex would have never beat the Colts. He proved that in the SB when I feel our team was much better around him.
You guys say Orton sucks but the guy just keeps winning. The position is all determined about winning. I just don't get some of you guys.

Tankjeep
09-09-2008, 07:02 AM
it defn. wasnt just one college game though. I just used the one that stood out to me the most when I watched that game. That game is just a good example of bad Rex. You can't have a QB in the NFL who folds under pressure. He does and he has shown this many times. Yeah he might have great raw talent, but if you can't harness that than you will never succeed in this league. And you say he can bring us back from behind. First off his play is usually what put us behind. Second, when Grossman plays from behind he throws out all fundamentals of the game and launches up prayers that usually get intercepted. Orton is not by any means a great QB but he won't lose us games like Grossman has. He made alot of quality throws yesterday and not to many bad ones. The bears have a dink and dunk pass, power running offense. Grossman is a gunslinger who for some reason can't play in this offense. Orton can plain and simple.


stop wasting your time. i just want the bears to win, screw these orton haters. i'm all about the bears winning, with whatever qb we put behind center.

babbaman
09-09-2008, 10:39 AM
i dont think he will get a 83.5 QB rating.
it will be maybe 70's IMO, is he does good for him.
and even if the QB rtng is up there, the passing offense will still be below average b/c he is too conservative.

Not quite, But I'll take an 83.4 in the first game aginst the Colts :D

babbaman
09-09-2008, 11:08 AM
regardless of who is at the qb spot, with this o-line....it's going to be a long season. so having a qb rating around the 70's would be more reasonable than obtaining the league average.

hopefully i'm wrong and like you said babbaman, the offense helps the defense rest.

I believe that ll we really need on offense is to help the defense stay rested and healthy. I think we can all agree that with a healthy defense that can stay rested we can be in every game with our special teams and a "get off the bus running" mentality. The QB needs to make plays when he has to and as Orton just showed against the colts, he can. We can not afford to take chances just to take chances. We are not built like that. That's how we got hurt and tired out last year. Besides, I really like the fact that Orton actually "directed" the offense based on the defense, not just executed the plays that were called in. I must say I was very pleased to discover Orton only missed league average by a tenth of a point (83.4 compared to the average of 83.5 last year) in this first game. I will take that play all year long and you won't hear a peep from me. Now let's see if he can keep it up. I believe he can, but I've been wrong before. (:shush: Don't tell Cambo.) We'll see. My friends always say I am overly optimistic and see the Bears through rose colored glasses. Maybe I do, but the start of this season has looked good so far.

I agree with what you said in a later post, that it doesn't really matter what QB is back there as long as he can play consistent and the Bears WIN!!!! If I saw Grossman do what Orton did this past game, I would be just as happy. Unfortunately, we have seen the "want to be a cowboy" mentality far too much from him in the past. He wants to be great, which I can't fault him for, but, the team needs to come first so the ego needs to be checked at the door. The QB needs to play team ball, not "Look at me, I can squeeze a rocket into double coverage" attitude. If Grossman uses his time wisely now and does what Orton has been doing the past 2 years and studies his ***** off, I believe he will be able to start somewhere. If he doesn't, he's got no one to blame but himself.

babbaman
09-09-2008, 11:14 AM
Orton only threw the ball 21 times in the game because he only needed to throw that many times. We were leading damn near the entire game. What do you do when you have the lead and the running game is working well??? YOU RUN!! Thats bears football. When they did open it up a little bit for Orton, he showed that he could make the throws. Orton played well in the game, took what the defense gave them and had a better QB rating than Manning in the game. You guys are all about that QB rating so I'm throwing that out there. Before yesterdays games, he had the 11th best QB rating in the league. And for the guy who said Orton only produced 3 points, that is crap. He made very nice passes to Clark and Olsen to produce 3 before the half, and then the TD by McKie.
Why would we have passed more and risk putting the colts right back in the game??? That's what they would have done for Rex and thats why we would have lost that game if Rex was the QB. Our Defense was playing amazing, we were winning, all we needed was 1st downs and no turnovers. Rex would have never beat the Colts. He proved that in the SB when I feel our team was much better around him.
You guys say Orton sucks but the guy just keeps winning. The position is all determined about winning. I just don't get some of you guys.

Yes sir. I especially like the 12 play drive that didn't result in any points but took away over 7 minutes of time that I am sure the Colts would have loved to have had back.

azbearfan
09-09-2008, 11:47 AM
im sure grossman can hand off just as well as orton can.



If he can handle the snap.:D

Doogolas
09-09-2008, 01:01 PM
If he can handle the snap.:D

Fumbles per game:
Orton: .34
Rex: .22
Good call!


Orton only threw the ball 21 times in the game because he only needed to throw that many times. We were leading damn near the entire game. What do you do when you have the lead and the running game is working well??? YOU RUN!! Thats bears football. When they did open it up a little bit for Orton, he showed that he could make the throws. Orton played well in the game, took what the defense gave them and had a better QB rating than Manning in the game. You guys are all about that QB rating so I'm throwing that out there. Before yesterdays games, he had the 11th best QB rating in the league. And for the guy who said Orton only produced 3 points, that is crap. He made very nice passes to Clark and Olsen to produce 3 before the half, and then the TD by McKie.
Why would we have passed more and risk putting the colts right back in the game??? That's what they would have done for Rex and thats why we would have lost that game if Rex was the QB. Our Defense was playing amazing, we were winning, all we needed was 1st downs and no turnovers. Rex would have never beat the Colts. He proved that in the SB when I feel our team was much better around him.
You guys say Orton sucks but the guy just keeps winning. The position is all determined about winning. I just don't get some of you guys.

No, it's not. It's determined by ability to make a big play when you need one. Rex would have been treated the same way as Orton this game. Did NOBODY pay attention to Rex before he got hurt last year?

Games 10-13 (I didn't count 14 as he only threw 6 passes before getting hurt.)
73/130 (55.15%)
897 Yards (6.9/Attempt) (12.29/Completion) (224.25/Game)
3TD/1INT
82.11 Rating

He did damn well in those games, and gave us MORE than I believe Orton ever will, he played smarter, and better than he had earlier in the year, which is why I believe he should be starting.


stop wasting your time. i just want the bears to win, screw these orton haters. i'm all about the bears winning, with whatever qb we put behind center.

It's not about HATING Orton, it's about not believing he has the skills to get the job done when we need a big play. I actually LIKE Orton, I think he's a very serviceable backup, and I just like him, but that doesn't make him more talented than Grossman.

freaknasty23
09-09-2008, 03:10 PM
Orton 13-6 as our starter, lets keep him rolling with the W's

Fuselage
09-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Orton 13-6 as our starter, lets keep him rolling with the W's


Our starting field position was great against the Colts. If Orton only needs to drive 60 yards each time for a TD and only 30 yards for a field goal, we can get the points we need to win.

Fuselage
09-09-2008, 04:13 PM
stop wasting your time. i just want the bears to win, screw these orton haters. i'm all about the bears winning, with whatever qb we put behind center.

Word

Tankjeep
09-10-2008, 06:42 AM
like debo, i'm taking a hiatus on this qb discussion becuz all the thread does is turn into crap, but i do want to say one last thing.....i've seen orton play a lot of college games (being a notre dame fan) and for people to say that orton doesn't have the arm or the talent to be a threat throwing the ball is ridiculous. purdue runs a pro style offense and they throw more often than run the ball. he can make all the throws on the field (he did enough of it against the irish). i agree that the start to his pro career (as a rookie) was atrocious, but he's was thrown to the wolves when he wasn't prepared properly or given the amount of reps necessary to be even remotely ready for that season.

i'm done now.....my hiatus has begun. i just hope that kyle can be the qb to lead us from behind.

Mr.MCGwire
09-10-2008, 10:26 AM
the line in 05 was fine.
him being horrible was the problem.

We won in 05 until we put grossman in

Mr.MCGwire
09-10-2008, 10:36 AM
it defn. wasnt just one college game though. I just used the one that stood out to me the most when I watched that game. That game is just a good example of bad Rex. You can't have a QB in the NFL who folds under pressure. He does and he has shown this many times. Yeah he might have great raw talent, but if you can't harness that than you will never succeed in this league. And you say he can bring us back from behind. First off his play is usually what put us behind. Second, when Grossman plays from behind he throws out all fundamentals of the game and launches up prayers that usually get intercepted. Orton is not by any means a great QB but he won't lose us games like Grossman has. He made alot of quality throws yesterday and not to many bad ones. The bears have a dink and dunk pass, power running offense. Grossman is a gunslinger who for some reason can't play in this offense. Orton can plain and simple.

Amen Brother, finally someone who takes Grossman to task. I wish wish wish we would have cut Grossman so we could stop talking about him I wish him the best and think a change of scenery might be the wake up call he needs. I think they should tie him to a goal post and let every line backer hit him like they did that goalie in the mighty ducks to get him to stop being afraid of being hit. Step up in the pocket and play cerebrally. He has a great arm, but his hieght and fear have put him on the bench. A gunslinger is only great when he can see over the line and deliver the ball into the hands of someone he actually knows is there.
Orton is not great but might be what we need. We will see this week. If the d does well and orton does OK, we win. If the D does bad and Orton does good we win. If Orton does Grossman, and the D does bad we lose. LOL:
People who keep talking about who isn't going to play this week are= :horse::horse:

Mr.MCGwire
09-10-2008, 10:45 AM
[QUOTE=Doogolas;6575167]Fumbles per game:
Orton: .34
Rex: .22
Good call!



You know Doog, Rex average is lower because he played more games. Also, Orton played his rookie year, not many do well there rookie year. But again,
I think you and Cambo are paid proffesional posters by the opposition. Your like joe biden, years of making foreign policy decisions, their just the wrong decisions.

CAMBO AND DOOG= :horse:

LOL, sorry but it seems you guys bring it on yourself with your six degress of Rexeration. And I love the Dead horse logo.

SoCalBEARFAN
09-10-2008, 11:45 AM
hes got one hell of a neck beard which will help him in cold winter games

hahahha i agree with that 100% that will give him the edge against other quarterbacks

cambovenzi
09-10-2008, 02:16 PM
We won in 05 until we put grossman in

your serious with that?
1. orton did almost nothing to win any of those games.
he was horrible.
2. yes, the TEAM lost 1 game when grossman was QB that year,
W-L record doesnt make a QB better than another.
look at what they actually did.
3. the ONLY game they lost under grossman that year was the playoff game against the panthers, and that was b/c the CORNERBACKS were falling down and getting pushed over by steve smith.
thats not the QBs fault.

cambovenzi
09-10-2008, 02:19 PM
You know Doog, Rex average is lower because he played more games. Also, Orton played his rookie year, not many do well there rookie year. But again,
I think you and Cambo are paid proffesional posters by the opposition. Your like joe biden, years of making foreign policy decisions, their just the wrong decisions.
thats makes no sense.

yeah, wanting the QB to produce, and not making cop out excuses to why he performed badly is rooting for the opposition:rolleyes:


CAMBO AND DOOG= :horse:

LOL, sorry but it seems you guys bring it on yourself with your six degress of Rexeration. And I love the Dead horse logo.
if someone says something dumb, or obviously incorrect just to try and badmouth rex, or show that orton is good or better we will say something that counters it, and calls it out as the BS that it is.

db75
09-10-2008, 02:21 PM
[QUOTE=Doogolas;6575167]Fumbles per game:
Orton: .34
Rex: .22
Good call!



You know Doog, Rex average is lower because he played more games. Also, Orton played his rookie year, not many do well there rookie year. But again,
I think you and Cambo are paid proffesional posters by the opposition. Your like joe biden, years of making foreign policy decisions, their just the wrong decisions.

CAMBO AND DOOG= :horse:

LOL, sorry but it seems you guys bring it on yourself with your six degress of Rexeration. And I love the Dead horse logo.


Since someone brought the numbers up again, I'm ending my hiatus just for this post to clear up an issue I made with the fumbling statistics. I didn't notice that I wrote down the wrong stats on fumbles, so what you're actually seeing in the numbers above ^^ are fumbling statistics when running. Here are the full fumbling statistics:

Rex Grossman - 19 fumbles (10 lost) in 32 games; 0.6 fumbles (0.31 lost) per game
Kyle Orton - 15 fumbles (5 lost) in 19 games; 0.8 fumbles (0.26 lost) per game


Yes, Rex has fumbled the ball more, BUT he fumbles less per game. Kyle loses fumbles slightly less per game (he loses one less fumble over a 20 game span...so if he fumbles this next game, they will have virtually the same lost fumbles per game numbers). Like you said, Rex's numbers could be down because he's played more games. That's why averages are averages. If the frequency of fumbles changes over time, so will the average. That could also go the other way, though. Rex's numbers could've been higher because he's played more games and has had more opportunities to fumble. The reason I brought the numbers up because I was tired of people blindly saying 'At least Orton doesn't fumble like Rex does!' He doesn't. You can't dispute the fact that Orton fumbles more times per game than Rex.

There are plenty of things that are purely based on opinion, but the fumbling issue is not one of them.

And because someone'll bring up the interception and touchdown deal, here are those numbers:

Rex - 31 TDs, 33 INTs in 32 games; 0.97 TDs, 1.0 INTs per game
Orton - 12 TDs, 15 INTs in 19 games; 0.63 TDs, 0.8 INTs per game

Rex throws more touchdowns per game (and about 5 more per year than Orton) while Orton throws less INTs per game (and about 3 less INTs per year than Rex). For whoever wants to know the stats, there you go. I'm back on hiatus now. If anyone wants to argue anything about their stats, I'm out of the argument until week 4 or 5, so figure out the damn stats yourself.

Tankjeep
09-10-2008, 08:13 PM
^thanx for the stats. those are good numbers to know and hopefully over time, orton can increase his TD output and keep a low TO ratio

db75
09-10-2008, 08:55 PM
^thanx for the stats. those are good numbers to know and hopefully over time, orton can increase his TD output and keep a low TO ratio

/hiatus since things seem to be cooling down...lol

I would love to see Orton put up big numbers (or any current or future Bears QB) while keeping turnovers to a minimum, too. It'll be interesting to see how the offense tries to mesh in the coming weeks. I'd love to see a playoff run, but I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

Second City
09-10-2008, 09:05 PM
I wish all of these Rex lovers would just stfu and support the Bears current QB, Orton.
IMHO at least when Orton takes control of the offense I don't have to look away.

Pran Raznor
09-10-2008, 09:16 PM
"I wish all of these Rex lover would just stfu and support the Bears current QB, Orton."

Agreed

chisox..YES!
09-10-2008, 10:22 PM
I wish all of these Rex lovers would just stfu and support the Bears current QB, Orton.

Agreed as well... especially considering rex did lose the super bowl for us..haha

Tankjeep
09-10-2008, 10:59 PM
^don't even go there.....a can of worms is about to be opened.

cambovenzi
09-11-2008, 01:21 AM
I wish all of these Rex lovers would just stfu and support the Bears current QB, Orton.
IMHO at least when Orton takes control of the offense I don't have to look away.

its morons like these who will be all over orton when we arent doing well enough to win games.

cambovenzi
09-11-2008, 01:22 AM
Agreed as well... especially considering rex did lose the super bowl for us..haha

like tankjeep said, dont go there.
whoever says rex lost the SB for us didnt pay attention to the game, and doesnt know very much about football.
the defense playing poorly and the horrible weather were much bigger factors in out SB loss.

Bulldog76
09-11-2008, 03:06 PM
like tankjeep said, dont go there.
whoever says rex lost the SB for us didnt pay attention to the game, and doesnt know very much about football.
the defense playing poorly and the horrible weather were much bigger factors in out SB loss.

Really...because I would think fumbling the snap and throwing an int returned for a touchdown in the fourth quarter were pretty significant...

Unless the Colts were able to play in the sunshine while we were able to play in the rain... I thought the rain helped us...it kept Indy's passing game under wraps and slowed down their defensive line... Poor playcalling on offense, Ced Benson's fumble and quitting on the team were also to blaim...

But you can't absolve Rex of not being a critical part of that loss... it isn't 100% his fault, but its not like he didn't play poorly either..

Tankjeep
09-12-2008, 06:54 AM
^i agree bd76. i thought the bears best chance to win was if it rained. when it did, i was like hallelujah.....but of course, the end result sucked.

Mr.MCGwire
09-12-2008, 03:20 PM
its morons like these who will be all over orton when we arent doing well enough to win games.

Another funny observation for you. When Cambo see facts, he calls the poster stupid, or they don't know much about football. His last insult called someone a moron for wanting Kyle to win, daring kyle to lose and then saying people who support the bears with Kyle as quarterback will be calling for his replacement.

I, a moron, who don't know much about football, have been saying I wishthey started Orton since his rookie year. Man maybe he would develop. We will never develop another QB because the Philly fans who call themselves Bears fan are always looking for somebodies head.

If rex was the QB I would be just as excited come Sunday, just cringe a little more often. You can't say, even looking at the stats, you Cambo haven't cringed at Bad Rex and at times jumped with elation for Good Rex.

And as for DOOG and Debo?!? the fumble stats are presently irrelevant because I don't think Rex is playing anymore. By saying, when Orton fumbles in the next game they will be the same states it's as though you are really, really hopeful Orton fumbles, which means Bears look bad.

I'm like John McCain, "i'd rather loose and election than a war"

in this Equation
John McCain= A good bears fan
Election=your predisposito to say orton sucks and will be replaced by rex
War= Game Win

Your Obama: "Now that the surge has worked, I'm not going to give it credit for the win."

Obama= not sure if he's a bears fan though he posts on this board alot
Surge: Orton
Credit: We would have won with Rex but with more passing and TD's

Mr.MCGwire
09-12-2008, 03:21 PM
Lol

Mr.MCGwire
09-12-2008, 03:23 PM
hey just hit 50 + posts now only 10,000++ more to be as knowledgeable as Cambo lol

Mr.MCGwire
09-12-2008, 03:27 PM
by the way Orton went 10-16 on third downs. First QB to do so well since 95....

BigZsKeyboard
09-12-2008, 05:42 PM
I thought the point of this thread was Orton's potential... and I think even the Orton backers posting here have inadvertantly answered that question by preferring an Orton v Rex cagematch. If that argument is really more intreaging than a hopeful discussion about Orton's future, maybe that's because we all know that Orton really doesn't have a future as a successful starting qb in this league.

That said, I know the stats on w/l with Kyle as the starter so save that crap for somebody else's toilet. In the long run we're going to need a QB that can win games for us, as the goal is to win the superbowl. Orton may be able to ride the D into the playoffs, but does anyone really believe Kyle Orton is going to have his hands in Kruetz's crotch the next time the Bears win the SB?

db75
09-12-2008, 06:00 PM
hey just hit 50 + posts now only 10,000++ more to be as knowledgeable as Cambo lol

You're also about 10,000++ posts which contain any sort of information/reason to back up your claims away from that point...

db75
09-12-2008, 06:01 PM
I thought the point of this thread was Orton's potential... and I think even the Orton backers posting here have inadvertantly answered that question by preferring an Orton v Rex cagematch. If that argument is really more intreaging than a hopeful discussion about Orton's future, maybe that's because we all know that Orton really doesn't have a future as a successful starting qb in this league.

That said, I know the stats on w/l with Kyle as the starter so save that crap for somebody else's toilet. In the long run we're going to need a QB that can win games for us, as the goal is to win the superbowl. Orton may be able to ride the D into the playoffs, but does anyone really believe Kyle Orton is going to have his hands in Kruetz's crotch the next time the Bears win the SB?

:clap: True dat.

freaknasty23
09-12-2008, 08:44 PM
You're also about 10,000++ posts which contain any sort of information/reason to back up your claims away from that point...

haha dick move.

db75
09-12-2008, 09:05 PM
And as for DOOG and Debo?!? the fumble stats are presently irrelevant because I don't think Rex is playing anymore. By saying, when Orton fumbles in the next game they will be the same states it's as though you are really, really hopeful Orton fumbles, which means Bears look bad.


No, the fumble stats are not irrelevant if you were following this thread at all. Someone said Orton turns the ball over a lot less often than Rex. I posted the fumble numbers and the INT numbers to show that that is not correct AT ALL since Kyle turns the ball over just as frequently as Rex does.

And show me where I wished Orton fumbled in the next game. I'm not going to go through my posts since you don't read what people are actually saying anyway, but I would put money on the fact that I said something along the lines of 'If Orton were to fumble X amount of times in X amount of games, he would have equal or worse values than Rex in terms of turnovers.'

I am not ****ing hoping that Orton fumbles, nor do I want the Bears to look bad. As you'll read, I'm getting more and more ****ing frustrated because you're taking things out of context and picking and choosing what people have said to misconstrue statements to fit your liking. I've said it before, and I'll say it a thousand more times because of posters like you who do not read what others are saying in an argument - I will be excited for Bears football if Kyle Orton develops into a stud QB. However, I do not see that happening. What is so ****ing hard to understand about that?

For the love of God, please read the threads and get an understanding of what is actually being said before spewing out garbage that is unrelated and completely without merit.

cambovenzi
09-12-2008, 09:14 PM
Another funny observation for you. When Cambo see facts, he calls the poster stupid, or they don't know much about football. His last insult called someone a moron for wanting Kyle to win, daring kyle to lose and then saying people who support the bears with Kyle as quarterback will be calling for his replacement.

I, a moron, who don't know much about football, have been saying I wishthey started Orton since his rookie year. Man maybe he would develop. We will never develop another QB because the Philly fans who call themselves Bears fan are always looking for somebodies head.

If rex was the QB I would be just as excited come Sunday, just cringe a little more often. You can't say, even looking at the stats, you Cambo haven't cringed at Bad Rex and at times jumped with elation for Good Rex.

And as for DOOG and Debo?!? the fumble stats are presently irrelevant because I don't think Rex is playing anymore. By saying, when Orton fumbles in the next game they will be the same states it's as though you are really, really hopeful Orton fumbles, which means Bears look bad.

I'm like John McCain, "i'd rather loose and election than a war"

in this Equation
John McCain= A good bears fan
Election=your predisposito to say orton sucks and will be replaced by rex
War= Game Win

Your Obama: "Now that the surge has worked, I'm not going to give it credit for the win."

Obama= not sure if he's a bears fan though he posts on this board alot
Surge: Orton
Credit: We would have won with Rex but with more passing and TD's

atleast you admit it.:cool:

where are these "facts" you talk about?
saying "everyone should stfu and support orton" is not facts.:eyebrow:

you use a whacked political analogy to prove your non-existent point.
do you think orton has looked he has had potential to be a good QB at any point during his rookie year?
i sure didnt.
oh and look, he still isnt above average, but one of the worst starters in the league.

you wanted orton to start every year including his rookie year?
thats plain ridiculous.
you fail to look past the teams record and see the individuals performances and skill.


i am not opposed at all to developing a QB.
but i am opposed to sitting by, pretending orton is a good QB, when in all likelyhood, he will hold us back this year.

freaknasty23
09-12-2008, 09:15 PM
orton is not going to be a stud qb, thats not his purpose so you might as well just accept him for what he is and not for what he probably cant be.

turnovers and all he wins more games than grossman, thats the only stat that matters.

cambovenzi
09-12-2008, 09:16 PM
orton is not going to be a stud qb, thats not his purpose so you might as well just accept him for what he is and not for what he probably cant be.

turnovers and all he wins more games than grossman, thats the only stat that matters.

his win % is slightly higher, but it has had nothing to do w/ his anemic passing performances.

freaknasty23
09-12-2008, 09:24 PM
his win % is slightly higher, but it has had nothing to do w/ his anemic passing performances.

he has the 5th best winning % as a starting QB with at elast 10 starts.

he can hand it off and not pass the whole game for all i care as long as we effin win, you should have the same attitude.

i read in an earlier post that he was like 63% on 3rd downs. youdont need throw 20+ yard bombs to win games. remember that a first down is only 10 yards cambo. play it safe and move the ball downfield. that with a strong running game is chicago bears football...get on board cheif.

but go ahead and bold one part of my reply and "disprove" me.

Mr.MCGwire
09-13-2008, 03:59 AM
No, the fumble stats are not irrelevant if you were following this thread at all. Someone said Orton turns the ball over a lot less often than Rex. I posted the fumble numbers and the INT numbers to show that that is not correct AT ALL since Kyle turns the ball over just as frequently as Rex does.

And show me where I wished Orton fumbled in the next game. I'm not going to go through my posts since you don't read what people are actually saying anyway, but I would put money on the fact that I said something along the lines of 'If Orton were to fumble X amount of times in X amount of games, he would have equal or worse values than Rex in terms of turnovers.'

I am not ****ing hoping that Orton fumbles, nor do I want the Bears to look bad. As you'll read, I'm getting more and more ****ing frustrated because you're taking things out of context and picking and choosing what people have said to misconstrue statements to fit your liking. I've said it before, and I'll say it a thousand more times because of posters like you who do not read what others are saying in an argument - I will be excited for Bears football if Kyle Orton develops into a stud QB. However, I do not see that happening. What is so ****ing hard to understand about that?

For the love of God, please read the threads and get an understanding of what is actually being said before spewing out garbage that is unrelated and completely without merit.

No you wont. quit lying. You want the bears to do good with rex. cant believe the coaches and anyone else that post, besides your buttboy cambo, dont realize orton cnt win/// be real i read every post and have now joined tosay... just say go bears...rex is done and btw, if i go on any bears post no matter what the subject, you and cambo relagate into a what bout rex... Am I wrong...somebody slap me!@

Mr.MCGwire
09-13-2008, 04:02 AM
Instead of looking at stats look at REX VIDEO...HE FUMBLES fUMBLES HE CAN'T HELP IT HE IS SCARED...HE FUMBLES... i DONT Mind when hje gts drilled but he fumbles....anyone want to disagree that orton and rex are different on th fumble?

Mr.MCGwire
09-13-2008, 04:06 AM
You boys are always "what about rex" I cant believe it because I was a rex fan but he is on the bench...get a life...we cant win iuf we are booing.....

cambovenzi
09-13-2008, 04:35 AM
No you wont. quit lying. You want the bears to do good with rex. cant believe the coaches and anyone else that post, besides your buttboy cambo, dont realize orton cnt win/// be real i read every post and have now joined tosay... just say go bears...rex is done and btw, if i go on any bears post no matter what the subject, you and cambo relagate into a what bout rex... Am I wrong...somebody slap me!@


Instead of looking at stats look at REX VIDEO...HE FUMBLES fUMBLES HE CAN'T HELP IT HE IS SCARED...HE FUMBLES... i DONT Mind when hje gts drilled but he fumbles....anyone want to disagree that orton and rex are different on th fumble?


You boys are always "what about rex" I cant believe it because I was a rex fan but he is on the bench...get a life...we cant win iuf we are booing.....

who are you to tell someone what they think?
nothing but a grumpy rando trying to make things up to prove a point.

what do you mean rex "just fumbles"?
he occasionally fumbles when he gets hit or stripped, or on an exchange, JUST LIKE ANY QB.
you were proven wrong when you were exaggerating how much rex fumbles.
now your just resorting to making more things up to make rex look bad.

when the current QB, Orton, throws 150 yards and no TDs, and hasnt shown anything in his career that says he can consistently move the offense himself, that brings the QB position into question.
especially when there was a QB controversy this preseason, and we have a good backup sitting on the bench that HAS often moved the offense downfield, and scored with his arm.

freaknasty23
09-13-2008, 04:46 AM
No you wont. quit lying. You want the bears to do good with rex. cant believe the coaches and anyone else that post, besides your buttboy cambo, dont realize orton cnt win/// be real i read every post and have now joined tosay... just say go bears...rex is done and btw, if i go on any bears post no matter what the subject, you and cambo relagate into a what bout rex... Am I wrong...somebody slap me!@


Instead of looking at stats look at REX VIDEO...HE FUMBLES fUMBLES HE CAN'T HELP IT HE IS SCARED...HE FUMBLES... i DONT Mind when hje gts drilled but he fumbles....anyone want to disagree that orton and rex are different on th fumble?


You boys are always "what about rex" I cant believe it because I was a rex fan but he is on the bench...get a life...we cant win iuf we are booing.....

im too high to come home to to this....:smoking:

db75
09-13-2008, 04:46 AM
No you wont. quit lying. You want the bears to do good with rex. cant believe the coaches and anyone else that post, besides your buttboy cambo, dont realize orton cnt win/// be real i read every post and have now joined tosay... just say go bears...rex is done and btw, if i go on any bears post no matter what the subject, you and cambo relagate into a what bout rex... Am I wrong...somebody slap me!@

Yes, I want to see the Bears play well with Rex. I would want them to play well with Hanie, Simms if he were brought in, Culpepper if brought in, Cade McNown if he were brought back, Harbaugh if he were brought back, ****ing Bart Starr if he were to make a comeback tour. I don't wish that a QB fails, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that they won't fail. I have NEVER said I want them to play poorly with Orton. If he plays well, and for the love of God please ****ing understand this, I WILL BE GLAD THAT WE HAVE A GOOD QB! HOWEVER, I don't think that Orton will become a good QB.

And no, I don't turn everything into a 'what about Rex?' I've posted in the QB controversy threads, the Orton potential thread (where Rex's play is important since he is the 2nd string QB...if Orton were to play poorly, Rex would be in), and in threads in response to 'ZOMG! REX FUMBLES A LOT! ZOMG KYLE ORTON WINS! ZOMG HANNAH MONTANA IS HOT!' posts. That's a little exaggerated, but blindly saying that Rex is a turnover machine when Orton isn't is flat out ignorant of their respective careers.

db75
09-13-2008, 04:49 AM
Instead of looking at stats look at REX VIDEO...HE FUMBLES fUMBLES HE CAN'T HELP IT HE IS SCARED...HE FUMBLES... i DONT Mind when hje gts drilled but he fumbles....anyone want to disagree that orton and rex are different on th fumble?

What the **** does that mean? So, the stats that actually tell you how often he and Orton fumble are moot? What is the video going to show you that the numbers themselves don't say?

Kyle Orton fumbles just as much as Rex and in virtually the same manner (watch the Colts game...he would've fumbled the QB-center exchange had there not been a penalty...and he's fumbled plenty of QB-center exchanges before).

db75
09-13-2008, 05:24 AM
You boys are always "what about rex" I cant believe it because I was a rex fan but he is on the bench...get a life...we cant win iuf we are booing.....

(try #2 at responding to this...thanks internet for losing connection)

I am only bringing up Rex in response to mindless comments that he is a faaar worse QB than Orton. This is the Orton Potential thread. Comparing him to Grossman is a valid argument given how similar their career statlines are. I feel that Rex's skillset outweighs Orton's, and if I were to be proved wrong this year, great. If you want to argue that you can't compare QBs, go for it, but it'll be a futile argument. How many times have you ever heard of a QB being graded without someone saying 'Man, he really reminds me of X player'? I was going to say Vick, but hell, Cunningham was very similar to him in terms of play style.

I am not booing the Bears games. I do, however, feel that Kyle Orton doesn't give us the best chance to win out of the stable of QBs we have. Throw up his record. Fine, but he didn't win those games. I could pick out probably 6-10 games that Rex almost singlehandedly won for Chicago, but I'm not going to do that because that's purely my opinion.

As for the get a life statement...really? That's the best you could come up with? I think the fact that I graduated #4 my senior class with a 4.142 GPA, was captain of the football team my sophomore and senior years (3 year varsity starter), earned All-Conference/All-Area honors my junior and senior year, earned All-State Athlete-Academic Team honors (only 20 or so students are picked every year), was a 4 year varsity letterman and captain of the Speech team (nearly making it to state my freshman and senior years), was cast in large-leading roles in my school's musicals, was an All-State Future Music Educator choice my senior year, placed 6th in state math contests my sophomore and junior years, am attending one of the top universities in the nation, was employed this summer by the local government, and have an amazing girlfriend all kind of point to me having a life. Oh, and I'm also and Eagle Scout. The fact that I enjoy watching/playing sports and arguing them online does not make me have no life.

Mr.MCGwire
09-13-2008, 12:25 PM
(try #2 at responding to this...thanks internet for losing connection)

I am only bringing up Rex in response to mindless comments that he is a faaar worse QB than Orton. This is the Orton Potential thread. Comparing him to Grossman is a valid argument given how similar their career statlines are. I feel that Rex's skillset outweighs Orton's, and if I were to be proved wrong this year, great. If you want to argue that you can't compare QBs, go for it, but it'll be a futile argument. How many times have you ever heard of a QB being graded without someone saying 'Man, he really reminds me of X player'? I was going to say Vick, but hell, Cunningham was very similar to him in terms of play style.

I am not booing the Bears games. I do, however, feel that Kyle Orton doesn't give us the best chance to win out of the stable of QBs we have. Throw up his record. Fine, but he didn't win those games. I could pick out probably 6-10 games that Rex almost singlehandedly won for Chicago, but I'm not going to do that because that's purely my opinion.

As for the get a life statement...really? That's the best you could come up with? I think the fact that I graduated #4 my senior class with a 4.142 GPA, was captain of the football team my sophomore and senior years (3 year varsity starter), earned All-Conference/All-Area honors my junior and senior year, earned All-State Athlete-Academic Team honors (only 20 or so students are picked every year), was a 4 year varsity letterman and captain of the Speech team (nearly making it to state my freshman and senior years), was cast in large-leading roles in my school's musicals, was an All-State Future Music Educator choice my senior year, placed 6th in state math contests my sophomore and junior years, am attending one of the top universities in the nation, was employed this summer by the local government, and have an amazing girlfriend all kind of point to me having a life. Oh, and I'm also and Eagle Scout. The fact that I enjoy watching/playing sports and arguing them online does not make me have no life.

Hey, I'm def proud that you are an eagle scout. That is awsome. Do you have your bogging badge yet? LOL Well, Al BUndy and you high school football is pretty cool. LOLOLOLOL Glad I got you fire up over Orton. And I really don't see anyone saying Orton is really better than Grossman. I think what I and others are saying is he is starting.

azbearfan
09-13-2008, 12:39 PM
OK, this is just getting stupid.
As a REX FAN, I hoped for him to "Break Out" this preseason. He sucked, looked no better then he did in the past. PERIOD.
As a BEAR FAN, I wanted Lovie to pick the "Best QB" that could WIN. He did, and now we're 1-0. :clap: :cheers: :hi5:
I don't care who the hell the QB is, I WANT WINS!!! If we start losing games, change the QB, until then, leave the starting line-up alone!!
How could any BEAR FAN disagree?!?

freaknasty23
09-13-2008, 01:31 PM
Hey, I'm def proud that you are an eagle scout. That is awsome. Do you have your bogging badge yet? LOL Well, Al BUndy and you high school football is pretty cool. LOLOLOLOL Glad I got you fire up over Orton. And I really don't see anyone saying Orton is really better than Grossman. I think what I and others are saying is he is starting.

i cant even read what you write half the time, try proof-reading before you hit post.

db75
09-13-2008, 02:51 PM
i cant even read what you write half the time, try proof-reading before you hit post.

He has no thought process. It's pointless arguing with him. I don't know why I even waste my time with him; I have waaay more important things to do than try to decipher what he's saying.

At least we don't have Ryan Leaf at QB.

db75
09-13-2008, 03:01 PM
OK, this is just getting stupid.
As a REX FAN, I hoped for him to "Break Out" this preseason. He sucked, looked no better then he did in the past. PERIOD.
As a BEAR FAN, I wanted Lovie to pick the "Best QB" that could WIN. He did, and now we're 1-0. :clap: :cheers: :hi5:
I don't care who the hell the QB is, I WANT WINS!!! If we start losing games, change the QB, until then, leave the starting line-up alone!!
How could any BEAR FAN disagree?!?

To be honest with you, I don't think anyone here is in that much of a disagreement with what you're saying. The problem some of us have with Orton is that we haven't seen that he has a high ceiling and are afraid that his lack of offensive production could hinder us in the playoffs. The problem some people have with Rex is his inconsistency. Everyone here wants to see the Bears play well, and as long as we do so, most of us'll be relatively happy. That doesn't mean that I or many other Bears fans won't question what the front office does because they have made some boneheaded moves before. As fans, I feel that we should support the team (which I, cambo, cusedude, whoever else feels Rex would be a better QB to lead at the moment do whether some posters want to believe or not) but we can't just sit back and accept what is being done at Halas Hall. Not that we have much influence, but as we've all seen with Grossman, once a fanbase makes up its mind, it can be very hard to shake those opinions from your head. Wow, that got long...but for the 99.9999% of you that actually read other people's comments and can form logical thought, I hope that makes sense and will maybe ease some of the tension that stems from misunderstandings of some posters's true intentions.

Mr.MCGwire
09-13-2008, 05:31 PM
sorry blogging badge, lol

Mr.MCGwire
09-13-2008, 05:39 PM
He has no thought process. It's pointless arguing with him. I don't know why I even waste my time with him; I have waaay more important things to do than try to decipher what he's saying.

At least we don't have Ryan Leaf at QB.


I wish you wouldn't respond to me, because my thought process is....woops silly me lost my train of thought again. Oh that's right, that no matter what is said, it ends up about Rex being better. Even when you just typed that you agree with our posts about wanting to win, you then talk about Orton having a ceiling and rex being better. I, again, only joined this season after reading so many negative posts about Orton. Their was a QB competition and Orton won. It's over. I do apologize that I don't proof my posts at all to all of you but especially, Freaknasty.

The General
09-14-2008, 01:26 AM
I think I can speak for everyone in this forum when i say we root for the team 1st and foremost. Rooting for the players is just secondary in achieving our ultimate goal, the team winning. That being said, Orton is a better game manager because he is a low risk player, but with low risk you get low reward. Orton will never put up gaudy numbers like rex is capable off. Orton will never be able to put the team on his shoulders and carry them to victory. What Orton does is he makes sure that the Offense doesnt lose the game. Which honestly may work out this year because of our strength on Defense and special teams. Running the Ball also helps.
Having Orton start for us may net us more wins and I'm all for that, but dont tell me that he's a better QB then Rex. Rex is a different type of QB, higher risk/ higher reward. Lovie wants to see if special teams, Defense, and a good running game can carry them into the playoffs, and based on the Indy game they just may. But if the coaching staff decides that they need a passing attack to reach an elite level of play, Rex will be behind center.

azbearfan
09-14-2008, 01:31 AM
To be honest with you, I don't think anyone here is in that much of a disagreement with what you're saying. .................................................. ............................I hope that makes sense and will maybe ease some of the tension that stems from misunderstandings of some posters's true intentions.

OK, I'm understand, but I think we need to see what Orton can really do.......my boy Rex has had plenty of opportunities and I think he blew it........at least for now. If Orton ends up blowing games then try Rex again, but until then, let's give Orton his shot.

cambovenzi
09-14-2008, 04:10 PM
whats his potential?
HORRIBLE.
can we bench him yet?

db75
09-14-2008, 04:28 PM
OK, I'm understand, but I think we need to see what Orton can really do.......my boy Rex has had plenty of opportunities and I think he blew it........at least for now. If Orton ends up blowing games then try Rex again, but until then, let's give Orton his shot.


I understand that completely and don't disagree. With that said, he had better take advantage of his opportunities because his skillset won't take us very far unless he makes HUGE strides this year.

GordoJ52
09-14-2008, 04:33 PM
to answer this thread. Orton's potential is D I C K!!!

Second City
09-14-2008, 04:39 PM
I hope that Orton can step it up but if not then Orton's potential is that he will bring us Matt Stafford (I hope) or Tim Tebow... It's sad but that would be the best thing Orton could do for us.

db75
09-14-2008, 04:45 PM
For the record, Kyle Orton's QB rating for the year is 75.9.

cambovenzi
09-14-2008, 04:48 PM
For the record, Kyle Orton's QB rating for the year is 75.9.

with no tds, and 149.5 yards per game.
A MAZE ING
:bang:

chicagowhitesox
09-16-2008, 08:46 PM
he has none. average arm, terribly slow feet, no deep touch whatsoever, horrible facial hair.