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lukeem21
08-31-2008, 07:34 AM
Personally I think this is going to be a break out year for Bargnani, but I know he has his haters out there with a little reason and a lot of arrogance on their side.

With JO in toronto there is no pressure on Bargnani, with lots of oppurtunity to put everything together comming off the bench... I dont know how many opposing second lines can deal with a 7 footer then can shoot that well a couple feet beyond the arc and who can put the ball on the floor pulling up anywhere between there and the net or finishing with a dunk. Not to mention the flashes he has shown of being a great passer.

If he is being effective I see JO averaging around 30mpg.... Bosh at around 35 leaving Bargnani a chance for 10 mins in for Bosh and 15 in for JO... leaving 6 minutes for Hump in the post (give him anymore and he starts thinking he's back in college and he'll start jacking up shots like crazy and get away from just being the role player he can be)

I believe there is also a chance for Il Mago to pick up mins at SF... i do not think he is an NBA small forward but I see there being a lot of different oppurtities throughout the year when he would be getting matched up with the likes of: Brian Scalerbraine, Trenton Hassel, Danilo Gallinari, Andreas Nocioni, Aleksander Pavlovic, Waler Herman, Adrinne Griffin, Maurice Evans, Adam Morrison, James Jones, Brian Cook,and Dominic McGuire. That is the majority of backup SF's in the east and I'd take Andrea over all those in a one on one matchup.

ramz.n
08-31-2008, 09:23 AM
you can say the pressure will be off..but it will still go in either direction..Bargnani will either come off the bench and play with ease knowing its not all on him or he could be burried on the bench because of the play of o'neal and bosh and may be forgotten, as much as i want to see him become the 6th man of the year its not going to happen this year.

boms-4
08-31-2008, 10:30 AM
we will be a great sixth man behind JO and Bosh

ink
08-31-2008, 11:15 AM
No idea at all. I doubt Bargnani or the coaches have any idea either how he will do.

nads83
08-31-2008, 11:49 AM
i disagree, there is huge pressure on bargnani

Beach Rock
08-31-2008, 11:53 AM
Hopefully a great year for Andrea. Adding some extra strength and power to his game with his already gifted shooting he should at the very least improve marginally over his best play in the last 2 years. At the very best he could be semi dominant player. Its all about consistently maintaining play now, and I think the extra year in age along with the leadership and skill set of Jermaine should go a long way in improving Andrea's consistent production. I hope.

JermanJaysFan
08-31-2008, 12:04 PM
No idea at all. I doubt Bargnani or the coaches have any idea either how he will do.

More so than his strength and conditioning work this offseason, I think that it was crucial that Andrea get back in the right headspace for this coming year. So it is my sincere hope that Andrea is in no way questioning his abilities and only has one thing in mind coming into this year- success.

t.o.sportsjunky
08-31-2008, 01:03 PM
As much as I want Bargs to be a star player I just don't see it happening. He is an oversized 3. Chris Bosh is our 4 and an undersized 5. So while he may be able to be a good player Toronto is not the spot where he will flourish. Bargnani can't rebound well which is a problem considering his size. He has minimal muscle and seems to get bullied in the post. He has a decent shot, but it is not on enough that I want the offense running threw him or even as a second option.

brebre82
08-31-2008, 08:09 PM
Personally I think this is going to be a break out year for Bargnani, but I know he has his haters out there with a little reason and a lot of arrogance on their side.

With JO in toronto there is no pressure on Bargnani, with lots of oppurtunity to put everything together comming off the bench... I dont know how many opposing second lines can deal with a 7 footer then can shoot that well a couple feet beyond the arc and who can put the ball on the floor pulling up anywhere between there and the net or finishing with a dunk. Not to mention the flashes he has shown of being a great passer.

If he is being effective I see JO averaging around 30mpg.... Bosh at around 35 leaving Bargnani a chance for 10 mins in for Bosh and 15 in for JO... leaving 6 minutes for Hump in the post (give him anymore and he starts thinking he's back in college and he'll start jacking up shots like crazy and get away from just being the role player he can be)

I believe there is also a chance for Il Mago to pick up mins at SF... i do not think he is an NBA small forward but I see there being a lot of different oppurtities throughout the year when he would be getting matched up with the likes of: Brian Scalerbraine, Trenton Hassel, Danilo Gallinari, Andreas Nocioni, Aleksander Pavlovic, Waler Herman, Adrinne Griffin, Maurice Evans, Adam Morrison, James Jones, Brian Cook,and Dominic McGuire. That is the majority of backup SF's in the east and I'd take Andrea over all those in a one on one matchup.

If an NBAer can't perform under pressure, what good is he? You could argue that it would give him time to develop, but if Bargs crumbles under the 'pressure' last year (it wasn't like he was our secondary option), I think that chances are that the pressure, however lessened, will still get to him this year. Maybe he will feel pressured by the fact that he should perform better due to the perceived less pressure there is on him due to the arrival of JO. :eyebrow:

Bust.

daboy44
08-31-2008, 11:29 PM
Listen, what people have to remember is that the guy is only 21-22 yrs old you cant expect a guy who played pro in Europe to pick up the North American game and get instant results its not like he is used to the play yet it its a totally different game over there. yes last year he sucked but team were ready for him played him legit....i highly doubt anybody in the league wouldn't want a seven footer who can shoot the three, you just don't find that so you have to be patient and the game will come...... SO PEOPLE DON'T HATE UNTIL HE HAS AT LEAST HE IS DONE THIS YEAR..... Hate on somebody who is used to North American game and is flopping like KWAIME BROWN or JJ REDDICK OR LUKE WALTON

lukeem21
09-01-2008, 02:05 AM
If an NBAer can't perform under pressure, what good is he? You could argue that it would give him time to develop, but if Bargs crumbles under the 'pressure' last year (it wasn't like he was our secondary option), I think that chances are that the pressure, however lessened, will still get to him this year. Maybe he will feel pressured by the fact that he should perform better due to the perceived less pressure there is on him due to the arrival of JO. :eyebrow:

Bust.

For a 20 year old to not preform at his highest level under the pressure of moving to a different continent and playing in a comepltely new style of basketball is understandable. he had people saying that he was the future of the raptors over chris bosh, which is a lot for someone trying to adapt his game to the NBA. Now with Jermaine Oneal if Bargnani does not have a good game he wont have all the eager haters calling him a flop WAY TOO SOON. Now after a tough year last year and an offseason to polish his game lets see how he responds THESE ARE THE MOMENTS THAT DEFINE WHAT KIND OF PERSON HE IS AND WHAT KIND OF PLAYER HE WILL BE. Not the ups and downs in his first two years in the NBA.

brebre82
09-01-2008, 04:36 AM
For a 20 year old to not preform at his highest level under the pressure of moving to a different continent and playing in a comepltely new style of basketball is understandable. he had people saying that he was the future of the raptors over chris bosh, which is a lot for someone trying to adapt his game to the NBA. Now with Jermaine Oneal if Bargnani does not have a good game he wont have all the eager haters calling him a flop WAY TOO SOON. Now after a tough year last year and an offseason to polish his game lets see how he responds THESE ARE THE MOMENTS THAT DEFINE WHAT KIND OF PERSON HE IS AND WHAT KIND OF PLAYER HE WILL BE. Not the ups and downs in his first two years in the NBA.


First of all I would like to make it clear that I have nothing against Bargnani. I am simply playing the role of critique. From my point of view, the ability to thrive under pressure is not a skill, but a talent. And if you do not have that talent or drive when you are 20, chances are you will never be able to perform during the clutch. Players like Lebron, Kobe, even Tmac embraced the pressure from a young age. Yes I know, we don't expect Bargnani to ever perform at that kind of level, but if Bargnani does not embrace the pressure of playing and improving in the NBA soon, I see him going back to Euro.

Honestly, I really do think that he has been given more than a chance. And my gut feeling is that he simply does not have the stuff to excel in the NBA. I don't care to be right about my prognostication, I just don't think we should make excuses for Bargnani simply because of his draftnight status.

P.S. Hating on Bargs 2 seasons later can hardly be called being 'eager'.

lukeem21
09-01-2008, 07:48 AM
First of all I would like to make it clear that I have nothing against Bargnani. I am simply playing the role of critique. From my point of view, the ability to thrive under pressure is not a skill, but a talent. And if you do not have that talent or drive when you are 20, chances are you will never be able to perform during the clutch. Players like Lebron, Kobe, even Tmac embraced the pressure from a young age. Yes I know, we don't expect Bargnani to ever perform at that kind of level, but if Bargnani does not embrace the pressure of playing and improving in the NBA soon, I see him going back to Euro.

Honestly, I really do think that he has been given more than a chance. And my gut feeling is that he simply does not have the stuff to excel in the NBA. I don't care to be right about my prognostication, I just don't think we should make excuses for Bargnani simply because of his draftnight status.

P.S. Hating on Bargs 2 seasons later can hardly be called being 'eager'.

you are right every player should be judged by what they do soley in their first two seasons, after that amount of time they could never get better

Kobe Bryant
FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG \
0.417 0.375 0.819 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.3 0.7 0.3 1.58 1.40 7.6
0.428 0.341 0.794 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.5 0.9 0.5 1.99 2.30 15.4

TMac
0.450 0.341 0.712 1.6 2.6 4.2 1.5 0.8 0.9 1.03 1.30 7.0
0.436 0.229 0.726 2.4 3.2 5.7 2.3 1.1 1.4 1.63 1.90 9.3

you also gave lebron as an example but he's a freak so switch to more appropriate examples big men

Dirk
0.405 0.206 0.773 0.9 2.6 3.4 1.0 0.6 0.6 1.55 2.20 8.2
0.461 0.379 0.830 1.2 5.2 6.5 2.5 0.8 0.8 1.72 3.10 17.5

Beidrins
0.577 0.000 0.475 1.6 2.4 3.9 0.4 0.4 0.8 0.40 2.90 3.6
0.638 0.000 0.306 1.8 2.3 4.2 0.4 0.3 0.7 0.50 2.80 3.8

Mehmet Okur
0.426 0.339 0.733 1.6 3.0 4.7 1.0 0.3 0.5 0.92 2.30 6.9
0.463 0.375 0.775 2.3 3.7 5.9 1.0 0.5 0.9 1.42 1.90 9.6

Bogut
0.533 0.000 0.629 2.3 4.7 7.0 2.3 0.6 0.8 1.52 3.20 9.4
0.553 0.200 0.577 2.5 6.3 8.8 3.0 0.7 0.5 2.27 3.30 12.3

killersweet
09-01-2008, 08:33 AM
First of all I would like to make it clear that I have nothing against Bargnani. I am simply playing the role of critique. From my point of view, the ability to thrive under pressure is not a skill, but a talent. And if you do not have that talent or drive when you are 20, chances are you will never be able to perform during the clutch. Players like Lebron, Kobe, even Tmac embraced the pressure from a young age. Yes I know, we don't expect Bargnani to ever perform at that kind of level, but if Bargnani does not embrace the pressure of playing and improving in the NBA soon, I see him going back to Euro.

Honestly, I really do think that he has been given more than a chance. And my gut feeling is that he simply does not have the stuff to excel in the NBA. I don't care to be right about my prognostication, I just don't think we should make excuses for Bargnani simply because of his draftnight status.

P.S. Hating on Bargs 2 seasons later can hardly be called being 'eager'.


I personally donít think Bargnani would live up to his expected potential. He might turn out to be a decent role player. But not a star as people predicted. Hopefully I am wrong on this.

Beach Rock
09-01-2008, 08:41 AM
you are right every player should be judged by what they do soley in their first two seasons, after that amount of time they could never get better

Kobe Bryant
FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG \
0.417 0.375 0.819 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.3 0.7 0.3 1.58 1.40 7.6
0.428 0.341 0.794 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.5 0.9 0.5 1.99 2.30 15.4

TMac
0.450 0.341 0.712 1.6 2.6 4.2 1.5 0.8 0.9 1.03 1.30 7.0
0.436 0.229 0.726 2.4 3.2 5.7 2.3 1.1 1.4 1.63 1.90 9.3

you also gave lebron as an example but he's a freak so switch to more appropriate examples big men

Dirk
0.405 0.206 0.773 0.9 2.6 3.4 1.0 0.6 0.6 1.55 2.20 8.2
0.461 0.379 0.830 1.2 5.2 6.5 2.5 0.8 0.8 1.72 3.10 17.5

Beidrins
0.577 0.000 0.475 1.6 2.4 3.9 0.4 0.4 0.8 0.40 2.90 3.6
0.638 0.000 0.306 1.8 2.3 4.2 0.4 0.3 0.7 0.50 2.80 3.8

Mehmet Okur
0.426 0.339 0.733 1.6 3.0 4.7 1.0 0.3 0.5 0.92 2.30 6.9
0.463 0.375 0.775 2.3 3.7 5.9 1.0 0.5 0.9 1.42 1.90 9.6

Bogut
0.533 0.000 0.629 2.3 4.7 7.0 2.3 0.6 0.8 1.52 3.20 9.4
0.553 0.200 0.577 2.5 6.3 8.8 3.0 0.7 0.5 2.27 3.30 12.3

Exactly Right! Man I'm glad someone did that...I didn't have the time or energy to put that sort of thing together. Nicely done.

Bramaca
09-01-2008, 10:08 AM
I think he will take a step forward this year, it won't be big but it will be an improvement. If he scores around the same amount of points with less shots (better fg%), gets close to 5 rpg, and improves his defense a little then I would consider it a succesful season for him.

Bricklayer
09-01-2008, 12:39 PM
[QUOTE=lukeem21;6478493]Personally I think this is going to be a break out year for Bargnani, but I know he has his haters out there with a little reason and a lot of arrogance on their side.

Let me get this straight, if somebody isn't as high on Il mago as you are they must be a hater or arrogant. Personally I think it's a little arrogant to assume Bargnani is going to improve after his numbers decreased in every statistical category in his 2nd season. Poeple have a right to be critical of the 1st overall pick who looks like he is going to spend the next couple years as a bench player. The reason I think Andrea had a bad year is because of his attitude and work ethic. He was extremely lazy when running the floor, especially when coming back on defence. When he made a mistake and Sam pulled him to the bench, he sulked and pouted like a little kid. This guy has a ton of growing up to do before he starts to live up to his potential.

Why are people getting excited about Bargnani potentially being a good sixth man! Who cares, when he was drafted he was compared to Dirk and Pau, and now people are satisfied with a guy who can maybe score 12 points coming off the bench.

The Wise 1
09-01-2008, 12:43 PM
you are right every player should be judged by what they do soley in their first two seasons, after that amount of time they could never get better

Kobe Bryant
FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG \
0.417 0.375 0.819 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.3 0.7 0.3 1.58 1.40 7.6
0.428 0.341 0.794 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.5 0.9 0.5 1.99 2.30 15.4

TMac
0.450 0.341 0.712 1.6 2.6 4.2 1.5 0.8 0.9 1.03 1.30 7.0
0.436 0.229 0.726 2.4 3.2 5.7 2.3 1.1 1.4 1.63 1.90 9.3

If you want to compare 18 year old kids out of high school to 20 year old guys who have been playing pro ball for how many years then go ahead. Personally, I dont think that thats a fair comparison to make. Unless your Lebron then your body and maturity is just not there at that age to be good, regardless of your skill set.

you also gave lebron as an example but he's a freak so switch to more appropriate examples big men

Dirk
0.405 0.206 0.773 0.9 2.6 3.4 1.0 0.6 0.6 1.55 2.20 8.2
0.461 0.379 0.830 1.2 5.2 6.5 2.5 0.8 0.8 1.72 3.10 17.5

Yeah your spot on with this one. 17.5 and 6.5. There wasnt that much of an improvment from year 1 to 2.
Beidrins
0.577 0.000 0.475 1.6 2.4 3.9 0.4 0.4 0.8 0.40 2.90 3.6
0.638 0.000 0.306 1.8 2.3 4.2 0.4 0.3 0.7 0.50 2.80 3.8

Biedrins was also 2 years younger then Andrea and only played 14 minutes a game. his numbers now are inflated because of the system he plays in. Again, solid player but if thats all you want from him then lets cut out all the talk on how great hes going to be.

Mehmet Okur
0.426 0.339 0.733 1.6 3.0 4.7 1.0 0.3 0.5 0.92 2.30 6.9
0.463 0.375 0.775 2.3 3.7 5.9 1.0 0.5 0.9 1.42 1.90 9.6

If all you want from Andrea is to become an Okur then thats fine, lets cut out all this "hes gonna be a superstar talk then". Okur is nothing to get excited about. Hes a solid player and thats it.

Bogut
0.533 0.000 0.629 2.3 4.7 7.0 2.3 0.6 0.8 1.52 3.20 9.4
0.553 0.200 0.577 2.5 6.3 8.8 3.0 0.7 0.5 2.27 3.30 12.3

12 and 9 is pretty good if you ask me. A nice little improvement from year 1.

For every guy you listed I could list a guy who didnt really improve from year 1 to 2 and is now nothing more then a bench player/role player. It all comes down to what you can do on the court and Andrea can only shoot open 3's created by his teammates. Thats his only consistent skill. In 2 years he has proven that if his shot isnt dropping he is a complete liability out there and shouldnt be playing.

Goon.Weezy
09-01-2008, 01:10 PM
why is everyone bashing bargs.....everyone knew that when he was going to get drafted it was gonna take a few years for him to tap into his potential...this year he is gonna improve because he is gonna have to anchor the bench....cuz he his there 6th man

Ramon Nivar
09-01-2008, 01:33 PM
I'm torn between the 1st and 4th choice. If given the minutes Bargs could probably win 6th man, if not given minutes then his stats will suck. Either way I think he will at least have his shot this season.

brebre82
09-01-2008, 01:47 PM
you are right every player should be judged by what they do soley in their first two seasons, after that amount of time they could never get better

Kobe Bryant
FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG \
0.417 0.375 0.819 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.3 0.7 0.3 1.58 1.40 7.6
0.428 0.341 0.794 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.5 0.9 0.5 1.99 2.30 15.4

TMac
0.450 0.341 0.712 1.6 2.6 4.2 1.5 0.8 0.9 1.03 1.30 7.0
0.436 0.229 0.726 2.4 3.2 5.7 2.3 1.1 1.4 1.63 1.90 9.3

you also gave lebron as an example but he's a freak so switch to more appropriate examples big men

Dirk
0.405 0.206 0.773 0.9 2.6 3.4 1.0 0.6 0.6 1.55 2.20 8.2
0.461 0.379 0.830 1.2 5.2 6.5 2.5 0.8 0.8 1.72 3.10 17.5

Beidrins
0.577 0.000 0.475 1.6 2.4 3.9 0.4 0.4 0.8 0.40 2.90 3.6
0.638 0.000 0.306 1.8 2.3 4.2 0.4 0.3 0.7 0.50 2.80 3.8

Mehmet Okur
0.426 0.339 0.733 1.6 3.0 4.7 1.0 0.3 0.5 0.92 2.30 6.9
0.463 0.375 0.775 2.3 3.7 5.9 1.0 0.5 0.9 1.42 1.90 9.6

Bogut
0.533 0.000 0.629 2.3 4.7 7.0 2.3 0.6 0.8 1.52 3.20 9.4
0.553 0.200 0.577 2.5 6.3 8.8 3.0 0.7 0.5 2.27 3.30 12.3

You left out minutes per game.

Bargnani was #1 pick so he got minutes right off the bat, with 25.1 in his first season and 23.9 in his second. Kobe got 15.5 mpg when he averaged 7.6 ppg, and HE SHOWED IMPROVEMENT, getting more minutes in his second season ( 26.0 mpg)not because of his draft status, giving the Lakers an improved scoring average of 15.4 ppg. I'm not gonna do all of them but you get the point. You left out the crucial factor, playing time - time to prove yourself when given the chance.

You have to understand that those guys you mentioned they were not expected to perform, but they did. As a result, a lot of them were not given ample playing time in their early days in the NBA, but showed enough promise and improvement to EARN playing time. Bargnani was spoonfed, and he regurgitated a career average of 10.8 ppg 3.8 rpg in 24.4 mpg.

Like I said before, I think when a rookie receives minutes like those and do not impress, I see more Darko in him than Boozer. And as someone before me said, I really do hope I am wrong.

brebre82
09-01-2008, 01:52 PM
why is everyone bashing bargs.....everyone knew that when he was going to get drafted it was gonna take a few years for him to tap into his potential...this year he is gonna improve because he is gonna have to anchor the bench....cuz he his there 6th man

I am not bashing Bargs, just for the record. I just think that too many people are expecting too much, waiting for a product that is highly unlikely. Yes, it is possible that he might end up being very good, but half the players in the NBA have a good chance of being really good, they simply never fulfill that potential. All I am saying that it is more likely that he is just gonna be an average player who's best option might simply be to return to Euro.

brebre82
09-01-2008, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=lukeem21;6478493]Personally I think this is going to be a break out year for Bargnani, but I know he has his haters out there with a little reason and a lot of arrogance on their side.

Let me get this straight, if somebody isn't as high on Il mago as you are they must be a hater or arrogant. Personally I think it's a little arrogant to assume Bargnani is going to improve after his numbers decreased in every statistical category in his 2nd season. Poeple have a right to be critical of the 1st overall pick who looks like he is going to spend the next couple years as a bench player. The reason I think Andrea had a bad year is because of his attitude and work ethic. He was extremely lazy when running the floor, especially when coming back on defence. When he made a mistake and Sam pulled him to the bench, he sulked and pouted like a little kid. This guy has a ton of growing up to do before he starts to live up to his potential.

Why are people getting excited about Bargnani potentially being a good sixth man! Who cares, when he was drafted he was compared to Dirk and Pau, and now people are satisfied with a guy who can maybe score 12 points coming off the bench.

I am with you on this. I was just puzzled that the Raps went with Bargnani #1. Wish we got Rudy G. or B. Roy instead, but it's spilt milk. To me Bargnani is in that same category as maybe Garbajosa, i.e. someone that you could potentially get from Euro without the draft process. For them to not only draft him, but #1 overall was a huge risk, and I would flat out say it now, it was a mistake. Just look at Brandon Roy. Guess that's what happens when Mauricio is blinded by nationalism.

jrice9
09-01-2008, 02:59 PM
I would have taken aldridge but still Bargani is a project imo. If he doesnt show improvement this year (it may be not huge might be just year 1 numbers) I agree he will fail. But in my opinion he wont show close to his potential till year 5. By then I expect him to be about a 17 6 guy

Beach Rock
09-01-2008, 06:32 PM
The haters are out in full force...hahaha...(you're haters, admit it). I can't say much...I "hated" my share of past raptors. I'm still a bargnani fan though. I think he's a potential big game x factor and will only get better. We'll have to let his play decide the debate (and not just past play)...at least give him this year before writing him off. In my opinion its as easy to like him as it is to hate him so try getting on board. He's here to stay guys.

lukeem21
09-01-2008, 07:14 PM
[QUOTE=lukeem21;6478493]Personally I think this is going to be a break out year for Bargnani, but I know he has his haters out there with a little reason and a lot of arrogance on their side.

Let me get this straight, if somebody isn't as high on Il mago as you are they must be a hater or arrogant. Personally I think it's a little arrogant to assume Bargnani is going to improve after his numbers decreased in every statistical category in his 2nd season.
.....

Why are people getting excited about Bargnani potentially being a good sixth man! Who cares, when he was drafted he was compared to Dirk and Pau, and now people are satisfied with a guy who can maybe score 12 points coming off the bench.

I dont think everyone that does not think Bargnani is going to do good things in the NBA is arrogant, there are a few haters out there though that are extremely arrogant...

He can still get 25-30 mpg off the bench and in that time he could give a huge boast while Bosh or Oneal catch their breath

lukeem21
09-01-2008, 07:17 PM
12 and 9 is pretty good if you ask me. A nice little improvement from year 1.

For every guy you listed I could list a guy who didnt really improve from year 1 to 2 and is now nothing more then a bench player/role player. It all comes down to what you can do on the court and Andrea can only shoot open 3's created by his teammates. Thats his only consistent skill. In 2 years he has proven that if his shot isnt dropping he is a complete liability out there and shouldnt be playing.

the point of that post was replying to brebre who said that it is not being eager judging someone after two seasons... the point that you're saying is supporting my point 2 seasons is not enough time to judge someone so it is too early to determine what kind of player bargnani will be

i am eager to see how he responds to all the criticism

lukeem21
09-01-2008, 07:20 PM
You left out minutes per game.

Bargnani was #1 pick so he got minutes right off the bat, with 25.1 in his first season and 23.9 in his second. Kobe got 15.5 mpg when he averaged 7.6 ppg, and HE SHOWED IMPROVEMENT, getting more minutes in his second season ( 26.0 mpg)not because of his draft status, giving the Lakers an improved scoring average of 15.4 ppg. I'm not gonna do all of them but you get the point. You left out the crucial factor, playing time - time to prove yourself when given the chance.

You have to understand that those guys you mentioned they were not expected to perform, but they did. As a result, a lot of them were not given ample playing time in their early days in the NBA, but showed enough promise and improvement to EARN playing time. Bargnani was spoonfed, and he regurgitated a career average of 10.8 ppg 3.8 rpg in 24.4 mpg.
.


everyone there got comparable minutes to bargnani in at least their second year... except beidrins, he went another year riding the bench and did just now is showing what kind of player he will be in the nba

The Wise 1
09-01-2008, 08:48 PM
the point of that post was replying to brebre who said that it is not being eager judging someone after two seasons... the point that you're saying is supporting my point 2 seasons is not enough time to judge someone so it is too early to determine what kind of player bargnani will be

i am eager to see how he responds to all the criticism

I understand that but my point was to show you that those people are bad examples because they either did a lot more in year 2 or were glued to the bench because they were 18 year old high school kids. I mean I could go make a list of players who put up numbers like Andrea in year 1 and 2 who are bench/role players now.


everyone there got comparable minutes to bargnani in at least their second year... except beidrins, he went another year riding the bench and did just now is showing what kind of player he will be in the nba

But all those players had better numbers than him and weren't a pylon on D either. Okur had numbers that were similar and hes nothing to write home about. Everyone else showed a lot more than Andrea and/or were a lot younger.

Beach Rock
09-01-2008, 09:23 PM
[QUOTE=The Wise 1;6495437]I understand that but my point was to show you that those people are bad examples because they either did a lot more in year 2 or were glued to the bench because they were 18 year old high school kids. I mean I could go make a list of players who put up numbers like Andrea in year 1 and 2 who are bench/role players now.




I'd like to see your list. That's not being arguementative either...I would just like to see who you think is comparable to Andrea's situation that is now a bust or bench player? Thanks.

The Wise 1
09-01-2008, 10:00 PM
Kwame Brown 8 and 5 in 22 minutes (Was a lot younger than Andrea and came out of High School)

Stromile Swift 12 and 6 with 2 blocks in 26 minutes

Marcus Fizer 12 and 6 in 22 minutes (out of league)

Dermarr Johnson 9 and 3 in 24 minutes (out of league/15th man)

Raef Lafrentz 12 and 8 in 30 minutes

Those are off the top of my head. All came in with a lot of hype and expectations.

star
09-02-2008, 12:21 AM
this poll is gay .... why is it so extreme ... like he will be 6th man ... or he will be great but his stats will be crap?



i think he will have a much better year than last year (how could he not) ... 6th man is idiotic and every person that put that he would be 6th man or even in the running is absolutely handicapped.

I think he will be about a 16 - 6 guy next year ... also ... i bet any money he will not be a 6th man cause he will be playing SF and eventually be given the starting SF role ... sam is gay like that ... and they are gonna want JO bosh and ANDREA out together ... mark my words

Bramaca
09-02-2008, 12:42 AM
this poll is gay .... why is it so extreme ... like he will be 6th man ... or he will be great but his stats will be crap?



i think he will have a much better year than last year (how could he not) ... 6th man is idiotic and every person that put that he would be 6th man or even in the running is absolutely handicapped.

I think he will be about a 16 - 6 guy next year ... also ... i bet any money he will not be a 6th man cause he will be playing SF and eventually be given the starting SF role ... sam is gay like that ... and they are gonna want JO bosh and ANDREA out together ... mark my words

I agree that the poll is extreme, there is no in between. Most people either see all the "upside" or totally right him off and think he is going to end up back in Europe in 2 years. But the 16-6 you predict would put him in the running for 6th man.

I just don't see Bargs ending up at the sf position, there are too many negatives to him being there (especially on the defensive end) plus the Raps would have to make some kind of a move to bring in more depth up front since that would leave only Hump and Jawai backing up Bosh and O'Neal.

star
09-02-2008, 07:34 AM
I agree that the poll is extreme, there is no in between. Most people either see all the "upside" or totally right him off and think he is going to end up back in Europe in 2 years. But the 16-6 you predict would put him in the running for 6th man.

I just don't see Bargs ending up at the sf position, there are too many negatives to him being there (especially on the defensive end) plus the Raps would have to make some kind of a move to bring in more depth up front since that would leave only Hump and Jawai backing up Bosh and O'Neal.


He will be ... sam put him at SF in the PLAYOFFS to start ... he thought when all was on the line that it would be tough for the other team to adjust to that ... well i see sam as a stubbourn guy and sam with BC ... and i really think at times you will see him at SF

actually ... i think that SF is his last oppurtunity ... face it JO and BOSH are wicked ... JO should get 30 - 35 min ... you really think they want their "golden boy" andrea playing 15-18 mpg?

Bramaca
09-02-2008, 08:36 AM
He will be ... sam put him at SF in the PLAYOFFS to start ... he thought when all was on the line that it would be tough for the other team to adjust to that ... well i see sam as a stubbourn guy and sam with BC ... and i really think at times you will see him at SF

actually ... i think that SF is his last oppurtunity ... face it JO and BOSH are wicked ... JO should get 30 - 35 min ... you really think they want their "golden boy" andrea playing 15-18 mpg?

Face it JO and Bosh are injury prone. Bargs will end up with plenty of opportunity to play even if by some miracle neither Bosh or JO get injured during the season. Plus last season in the playoffs the Raps had more depth in the frontcourt which allowed them to play Bargs at the 3 (a mistake anyways) which they don't have now.

deaner
09-02-2008, 04:20 PM
He will be ... sam put him at SF in the PLAYOFFS to start ... he thought when all was on the line that it would be tough for the other team to adjust to that ... well i see sam as a stubbourn guy and sam with BC ... and i really think at times you will see him at SF

actually ... i think that SF is his last oppurtunity ... face it JO and BOSH are wicked ... JO should get 30 - 35 min ... you really think they want their "golden boy" andrea playing 15-18 mpg?

Gotta agree with star on this... andrea might start at the 3 and when JO come off first.. andrea moves to the 5 and either moon or kapono come in. I would think his chances of getting starting minutes are at least 33% equal to moon and perhaps better than kapono. If this does happen... Adams will have a shot at getting serious minutes for defensive purposes.

bidi_nash
09-02-2008, 04:44 PM
It's tough to say what Bargs might do cause even in his terrible year last year he still had some solid games where he played to his potential

1hardcore
09-02-2008, 04:53 PM
nope

get rid of him

bidi_nash
09-02-2008, 06:03 PM
^^ y he could still have a good season this yr. dont give up on him after one bad season

Bricklayer
09-02-2008, 06:31 PM
this poll is gay .... why is it so extreme ... like he will be 6th man ... or he will be great but his stats will be crap?



i think he will have a much better year than last year (how could he not) ... 6th man is idiotic and every person that put that he would be 6th man or even in the running is absolutely handicapped.

I think he will be about a 16 - 6 guy next year ... also ... i bet any money he will not be a 6th man cause he will be playing SF and eventually be given the starting SF role ... sam is gay like that ... and they are gonna want JO bosh and ANDREA out together ... mark my words

Come on man, I think as part of the Raptors forum we want to be known as knowledgable and respectful fans. Try and show a little class.

lukeem21
09-02-2008, 07:08 PM
I dont understand why everyone is complaining about the choices....

He could be great off the bench 15-5.... 18-8
He could be good off the bench 12-4... 15-5
He could be another year away from producing anything serious 8-3... 12-4
He could never produce anything serious 0-0... 10-4

I didnt want to predict stats cause we should all know by now stats dont mean everything but those 4 choices cover 4 really different areas

stillio
09-02-2008, 07:57 PM
you can say the pressure will be off..but it will still go in either direction..Bargnani will either come off the bench and play with ease knowing its not all on him or he could be burried on the bench because of the play of o'neal and bosh and may be forgotten, as much as i want to see him become the 6th man of the year its not going to happen this year.

Ricockulous! He will not be buried on the bench. Book It! Thanks Chuck!

Dragan
09-02-2008, 08:58 PM
he will be a 6th man contendor if oneal stays helathy, and if he can work well with Ukic. He seemd to do well comign of the beanch his rookie season.

People are also forgeting that he begun the season injured and draind from national play and played the whole season with an undesclosed injury.

I expect good thingc from him this season, and if he cant deliver then is is out teh picture. But i belive that he will be very good thsi season.

daboy44
09-03-2008, 02:20 AM
for one thing to say players never get better after their forst two seasons is a cop out statment KOBE was not good his first two seasons it took him a while...DIRK prime example of a player who got better LeBron another player who need to get better and did yes he was a phenom coming out of high school but the dude couldnt shoot .... you can bring up all the stats in the world but what stats dont tell you is if you get better.... stats are just percentages detemined by you play Tyson Chandler Dunks all the timm so does Kenyon Martin and they arent all stars but there FG% is pretty high cuase they dont shoot they dunk

brebre82
09-03-2008, 03:13 AM
for one thing to say players never get better after their forst two seasons is a cop out statment KOBE was not good his first two seasons it took him a while...DIRK prime example of a player who got better LeBron another player who need to get better and did yes he was a phenom coming out of high school but the dude couldnt shoot .... you can bring up all the stats in the world but what stats dont tell you is if you get better.... stats are just percentages detemined by you play Tyson Chandler Dunks all the timm so does Kenyon Martin and they arent all stars but there FG% is pretty high cuase they dont shoot they dunk

No one is saying you can't get better if you stank your first two seasons. Look at guys like Ben Wallace, virtual unknowns until the twilight of their careers when their status takes off. The case with Bargnani is that he has been given constant minutes, but he has not shown improvement, that is what has got me concerned. I didn't expect double double figures from Bargnani last year, I just expected improvement if we are to name him the crown prince of the Raptor organization. The case with the guys you mentioned is that they consistantly improved their play from year to year, and is the natural transition from rookie into quality player. A year is a long time, it is no fluke that Bargnani regressed in his second year, and if I were a GM, it would send out warning signals in my head. Get something for him while there are still people out there who believe in him.

pebloemer
09-03-2008, 09:07 AM
Honestly, I think it all hinges on his shot. Last year was not a good shooting year for him. (38.6% from the field 34.5% from 3). Similarly to Calderon, I think his game relies on his ability to knock down the open shot. Once he can hit the shot with consistency, lanes will open up as defenders have to play tighter. With open lanes, Bargs can show us the "Il Mago" of first year that made sometimes breathtaking passes and drives to the basket. If he can't hit his shot, he will get a lot of charges and continue to lose confidence.

If he has been working hard on his build and his low post game over the summer, we may see a bit more from him, but how much can he get out of one summer? We'll see. His game is still a perimeter game until he proves otherwise and if he continues to shoot bad percentages, teams will just let him take the shot and not let him get to the bucket. If he doesn't get to the bucket, I don't see his rebounding numbers going up to much on the offensive end.

On defense he has a lot of ground to make too, so we'll see what he brings on that front this season.

Beach Rock
09-03-2008, 10:34 AM
42% for Bargnani being in "sixth man of the year" contention...I love it...keep the faith fans!! Big year for Bargs!

PostYourEyes
09-03-2008, 07:58 PM
only if his confidence is up and if he feels no pressure then we could probably see some good ol' Il Mago in 08-09.

lukeem21
09-04-2008, 10:49 AM
I think this is the first year that Bargnani has a clear role, I believe he will benefit from getting a consistent amount of playing time... throughout his first two years he would play 35mins one game and if he made a couple early mistakes he would be riding the pine and getting like 10min

that is a good way to mess with a young players head, they will be so careful not to make a mistake that they wont be playing anywhere near to their potential.... I think this year having JO and Bosh Mitchell will not be looking at Bargnani as a starter, thus allowing him to make a mistake or two while he finds his groove

I BELIEVE that is how it will go down and I BELIEVE that will be the best way to see what Bargnani really has... imagine taking every shot with the though in the back of your head if i miss i'm going to the bench, every move you do every trip down the floor you will have enough hesitation to put you a step behind each play.

That being said Mitchell could continue to mess with him and put in Jawai or Humphries if Bragnani turns it over or something, but i think with him being a clear cut post reserve he will be given a little more freedom and flourish in it

Frank Costanza
09-04-2008, 11:17 AM
Thanks Lukeem 21 huge point brouight across
None of these now flourishing stars played the way they do now whilst growing up in the league. THe nba is a tough league and one that requires maturity and mental strenght. The advantage to drafting a young player is taht by the time his would-be college cohort gradutates hell be in his 4th yr in a leugue and comfortable, the disadvantage is that you come in young and have a lot of pressure on you for the first time in your life. we have to look at barns from the long term perspective. when he is at the ripened age of 24-25 and having had nba exp, playoff exp, playing behind 2 all star forwards and an all star guard he will be the player we are dreaming of, we can only hate him cause we love him

IversonIsKrazy
09-04-2008, 08:02 PM
hes never going to live up to the #1 Pick Expectation 4sure. He was the biggest mistake in raptor franchise history. I dont know wut BC wuz on, we could've gotten gay, roy, aldridge and such. At his peak of his career, he'll b in consideration of 6th man of year, but wont, AT HIS PEAK.

Dol-Fan
09-04-2008, 09:17 PM
hes never going to live up to the #1 Pick Expectation 4sure. He was the biggest mistake in raptor franchise history. I dont know wut BC wuz on, we could've gotten gay, roy, aldridge and such. At his peak of his career, he'll b in consideration of 6th man of year, but wont, AT HIS PEAK.

Roy wasn't all that highly touted coming out of college, he was a senior who was viewed to have little potential. No one expected this out of him so you can't blame BC and co. there. Gay is a bit of a chucker but may have been the only guy to be a better pick than Bargs at the time. Aldridge would fit very poorly next to Bosh so I don't know why you're disappointed about not getting him. I don't believe he was the biggest mistake in Raps history. That would be drafting Joey over Danny Granger based on workouts. Or that ridiculous Vince Carter trade.

Bargs still has ALOT of talent. He is a gifted passer, great court vision, good handles for a big, great shot mechanics that he just needs to become consistant with. This year, Bargs will ALWAYS be on the court with either JO or Bosh unless it's garbage time and that could be very beneficial to him. He will have a bonafide 6th man role, sharing with JK. I think he'll take a little while to settle in but end up averaging 14-15 and 4. He will be key off the bench in the future and I think he can be a big man version of Manu Ginobili.

Jacob K.
09-04-2008, 09:25 PM
does anybody know how many point he was averaging before he broke his nose? wasnt it close to 15?

The Wise 1
09-04-2008, 11:08 PM
I BELIEVE that is how it will go down and I BELIEVE that will be the best way to see what Bargnani really has... imagine taking every shot with the though in the back of your head if i miss i'm going to the bench, every move you do every trip down the floor you will have enough hesitation to put you a step behind each play.


He was NEVER pulled for missing shots or turning the ball over, he was pulled for missing rotation after rotation after rotation and not boxing out. Any player should be pulled for that. Its down right pathetic how he still completely blows his help assignments and doesnt box out after 2 years. Theres no excuse for that at all.

star
09-04-2008, 11:26 PM
He was NEVER pulled for missing shots or turning the ball over, he was pulled for missing rotation after rotation after rotation and not boxing out. Any player should be pulled for that. Its down right pathetic how he still completely blows his help assignments and doesnt box out after 2 years. Theres no excuse for that at all.

exact same reason why JOEY cant get mins .... got a body got some hops ... but looks lost on D

1hardcore
09-05-2008, 05:48 AM
Plain and simple
If youre a number 1 overall pick in the draft, you have to be really ****en good!

Barnagni is not that good

pebloemer
09-05-2008, 08:46 AM
Roy wasn't all that highly touted coming out of college, he was a senior who was viewed to have little potential. No one expected this out of him so you can't blame BC and co. there. Gay is a bit of a chucker but may have been the only guy to be a better pick than Bargs at the time. Aldridge would fit very poorly next to Bosh so I don't know why you're disappointed about not getting him. I don't believe he was the biggest mistake in Raps history. That would be drafting Joey over Danny Granger based on workouts. Or that ridiculous Vince Carter trade.

I agree with a lot of what you said, with the exception of Roy. BC knew that Roy was going to be a very good player in this league and actually said at the end of the rookie season that they had predicted Roy to be Rookie of the Year (as he was most NBA ready). They knew Roy was going to be very good, but they elected to go with their confidence that Bargnani is going to be great. Roy wasn't considered because they were going purely on upside, which Bargnani and Gay both had plenty of. I think you are downplaying Roy's potential at the time, although I agree that Bargs had more.

star
09-05-2008, 09:10 AM
Roy wasn't all that highly touted coming out of college, he was a senior who was viewed to have little potential. No one expected this out of him so you can't blame BC and co. there. Gay is a bit of a chucker but may have been the only guy to be a better pick than Bargs at the time. Aldridge would fit very poorly next to Bosh so I don't know why you're disappointed about not getting him. I don't believe he was the biggest mistake in Raps history. That would be drafting Joey over Danny Granger based on workouts. Or that ridiculous Vince Carter trade.

Bargs still has ALOT of talent. He is a gifted passer, great court vision, good handles for a big, great shot mechanics that he just needs to become consistant with. This year, Bargs will ALWAYS be on the court with either JO or Bosh unless it's garbage time and that could be very beneficial to him. He will have a bonafide 6th man role, sharing with JK. I think he'll take a little while to settle in but end up averaging 14-15 and 4. He will be key off the bench in the future and I think he can be a big man version of Manu Ginobili.


When they drafted BARGS i knew he would stink it up for a few years.
1. Not comfortable with english
2. 21 year old going to an international city away from home
3. NBA game is different
4 Bigs take longer to develop
5. He is a unique bigman ... no real player to mentor him in toronto (vs if he played with Dirk, Okur, even Kristic type guys)
6. Coaching in TO was not creative enough to use it skill set properly

BUT i agree that he was the best pick at the time. It was a week draft and lets say he was in last years draft ... he prolly would have been a 7 - 10 selection.


That being said, i AGREE that once he settles in, he will be great - not JUST good ... but great. But this depends on the following:

1. He needs time at PF (with a rebounding-banging center)
2. He needs to learn some post moves (to post smaller PF/SF's)
3. He needs to continue to improve his drives (against C's) - which he can do

I think it is unfortunate that he was Drafted by the RAPTORS. Imagine if he had 2 years to play alongside Okafur where he could play more of a soft-Bosh (i know bosh has improved) style (15-20 feet out).

Its just that he is a PF that we are trying to fit somewhere else (SF, C) ... and that just added to his learning problems.

I am confident however that he will be able to find a niche. Even if it means coming off the bench at all of (c, pf, sf)

lukeem21
09-05-2008, 11:10 AM
He was NEVER pulled for missing shots or turning the ball over, he was pulled for missing rotation after rotation after rotation and not boxing out. Any player should be pulled for that. Its down right pathetic how he still completely blows his help assignments and doesnt box out after 2 years. Theres no excuse for that at all.

I disagree there are lots of excuses for that.. just no good ones...

he got taken out for a lot of different reasons a lot of different times MY POINT IS THAT HE WAS NOT GIVEN TIME TO GET HIS HEAD IN THE GAME ON A CONSISTENT BASIS... you can argue with me if you want but the more he played in a game the better he played in every aspect cause he got a chance to just play

he will not be averaging 38mpg or anything but he should be getting consistent minutes and hopefully in the time he is given he will be allowed to just play... if anyone out here plays basketball they should know the difference between when you play a real game and you play the entire game and when you scrimage and play 5 minute shifts... when you play the entire game everything feels a lot more natural including defensive rotations


so which ever reason it was at whatever point in the season I am saying that when Bargnani would get on the court, do something wrong, and get pulled all within 1-2 mins that doesnt make anything better

The Wise 1
09-05-2008, 12:13 PM
so which ever reason it was at whatever point in the season I am saying that when Bargnani would get on the court, do something wrong, and get pulled all within 1-2 mins that doesnt make anything better

It was also never 1 or 2 minutes in, when he got pulled that quick it was because he got himself in foul trouble. When he was benched and pulled it was after he blew 5 or 6 defensive plays in a row (boxing out, missing help assignments). Sam has been stating since day 1 that he doesnt care what Andrea does on the offensive end, all he wants him to do is not be so bad on the defensive end and he would be getting minutes.


he got taken out for a lot of different reasons a lot of different times MY POINT IS THAT HE WAS NOT GIVEN TIME TO GET HIS HEAD IN THE GAME ON A CONSISTENT BASIS... you can argue with me if you want but the more he played in a game the better he played in every aspect cause he got a chance to just play

IMO 95% of the time he got taken out because of defensive reasons. When your directly costing your team anywhere from 6-10 points in a quarter because you didnt do something as simple as boxout or rotate, you deserve to be taken out and theres no way a coach could justify him staying in. For your second part I believe that its not him getting better with the more playing time he has but its him coming ready to play from the start. Much like Joey, you can tell when Andrea is going to have a good game from the get go. I rarely saw Andrea start off bad and then finish strong just because he played more, and im not talking stats wise, im talking help assignments and boxing out and doing more then just stand around the perimeter.


I disagree there are lots of excuses for that.. just no good ones...

Im kind a lost, what are you refering to?

Dol-Fan
09-05-2008, 03:51 PM
I don't think anyone can even argue the points made by The Wise, it's really just clear fact. If Bargnani wasn't so boneheaded on defense he would stay in games no matter how bad his shot is.

What I'm hoping for is that working out with JO will have made a difference in that throughout the summer.

lukeem21
09-05-2008, 08:18 PM
Okay "the Wise1" you are really missing my point here.

Yes most of the time Bargnani got taken out he deserved to be taken out. If you really believe he was never taken out after two minutes for reasons other then foul trouble then you have a really selective memory. Throw in the fact that even if he was in foul trouble most of the time we could afford to have him foul out as much have him sit on the bench the entire game with 3 fouls.

My point is not that he should have been left on though. You can continue to look for arguments that you want to start or you can read the entire posts and think about what the focus is.

My point is that he never got consistent minutes (not saying he deserved them!!!) If he is missing all his shots and turning the ball over he is costing the team as much as blowing defensive assignments.

My point is that the fact that he didnt get consistent mins cost his development... The raptors have been in playoff races and they could not have the patience to leave him in too long if he was not playing great.

Now with a combination of two years experience and a reduced role (not in contention for a starting job) there should be less pressure on him. And he should know where his minutes are comming each game.

ShaunRiching9
09-06-2008, 09:19 PM
15 ppg

reevanson
09-07-2008, 09:53 AM
16 and 6, he wont win 6th man but he will be mentioned

deaner
09-07-2008, 11:35 AM
he'll start too many games to be a 6th man...