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Informer
08-29-2008, 10:57 PM
Who would you have to serve as this country's Vice-President and a heartbeat away from the Presidency?

Personally, if I looked at it just from an educational standpoint, she is worse than Obama in terms of knowledge and just perhaps experience. At the very least, one can say that Obama has a degree in Political Science with specialization in International Relations, Law Degree (J.D. in Law), President of Harvard Law Review after Editorship, and taught Constitutional Law. However, with Biden: Biden brings in 35 years worth of experience as a Vice Presidential candidate and has a background in politics aside from Palin having just a minor in Political Science. I understand education is not 'just everything' however, that said, I still feel that Biden would just make more sense to me in terms of 'values and etc.' Don't forget that Biden is a strong advocate of women's rights while Palin is everything pro-life. And, with McCain, would overturn Roe vs Wade. Just a quick personal thought on this issue. Would like to hear others and their opinion.

Sarah Palin: Bachelor's in Journalism and a minor in Political Science.
Joe Biden: Double Major in History and Political Science, (J.D. in Law), Adjunct Professor at Widener Law School, teaches seminar on Constitutional Law. He is the former Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

dbroncos78087
08-29-2008, 10:59 PM
I think Biden has the big advantage just because i know nothing about Palin. The only big thing i know is rough details about the scandal involving the officer.

haroonie
08-29-2008, 11:19 PM
I think Biden has the big advantage just because i know nothing about Palin. The only big thing i know is rough details about the scandal involving the officer.

i have to agree.. i know nothing about Palin also except probably she's has a relatively short span in office as gov in alaska. i hear she's pro-life, life member of the nra, enjoys hunting, fur coats, pro-drilling in ANWR alaska and had some scandal in alaska that will probably be dugg up pretty soon. now these are probably nothing compared to the good she's done, the media is just feeding us these stories, but i'd like to know more about her..

for now i'd go with O'biden over McMILF ...

dbroncos78087
08-29-2008, 11:21 PM
for now i'd go with O'biden over McMILF ...

Haha, funny you should say that, almost every comment about her, here and on Digg, called her that i think.

haroonie
08-29-2008, 11:26 PM
Haha, funny you should say that, almost every comment about her, here and on Digg, called her that i think.

lol, office email spread around entitled with "McMILF" and pictures of her after the announcement. she's what, mid 40's? prolly some botox in action.. no problem with that.

DenButsu
08-29-2008, 11:30 PM
Biden.

----------------

edit-


“As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does everyday?”
-Sarah Palin, less than two months ago (http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/32313/1/Kudlow-Palin-VP.wmv/) (<- direct video link)

^Think we might be seeing more of that one? :rolleyes:

Shawh
08-29-2008, 11:45 PM
Biden, no doubt about it. He's well educated, has a lot of experience in the Senate and seems to be a pretty sensible guy.

Palin on the other hand is an idiot. I don't agree with any of her views and she has absolutely no credentials to be that close to Presidency. Watch this video (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/08/palin-vice-pres.html), absolutely ridiculous.

ink
08-29-2008, 11:47 PM
Biden.

----------------

edit-


-Sarah Palin, less than two months ago (http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/32313/1/Kudlow-Palin-VP.wmv/) (<- direct video link)

^Think we might be seeing more of that one? :rolleyes:

Sarah Palin: "What is it that the VEE PEE does anyway??"

Hmmm.

Biden gets my vote.

She's going to surprise us, I have to say that. She already surprised me in her appearances today. She speaks well and forcefully and she'll be better in the debates than people are giving her credit for. But I've liked Biden for a decade, and I'm delighted to see him as the VP candidate. He'd be great in the White House.

dbroncos78087
08-29-2008, 11:52 PM
"What is it that the VEE PEE does anyway??"

Hmmm.

Biden gets my vote.

She's going to surprise us, I have to say that. She already surprised me in her appearances today. She speaks well and forcefully and she'll be better in the debates than people are giving her credit for. But I've liked Biden for a decade, and I'm delighted to see him as the VP candidate. He'd be great in the White House.

I think the biggest role of the VP is to provide advice, i dont know how often there are actually ties in the Senate. He serves as a head of committees and stuff like that too i think that are important to the president.

ink
08-29-2008, 11:55 PM
I think the biggest role of the VP is to provide advice, i dont know how often there are actually ties in the Senate. He serves as a head of committees and stuff like that too i think that are important to the president.

The quote I used is from the youtube clip Den posted. It was Palin who asked what the VEEE PEEE does just a month ago. ;)

gcoll
08-30-2008, 12:06 AM
"what is it that the VP does anyway" isn't all that bad of a question really.

It sounds stupid, but it really isn't as dumb as it sounds. The VP has long been considered one of the most useless positions in the executive branch.

But....yeah. Even though I disagree with Biden on quite a bit, you still gotta take him over the person who I don't think is fit for the job.

Kind of a similar reason for me picking Mccain over Obama......weird.

SmthBluCitrus
08-30-2008, 01:01 AM
As a Democrat, it's obvious ... Biden.

But, considering them strictly head-to-head at face value from a non-biased position would probably be concluded with Biden as well.

I mean, seriously ... if she was a mid-40's white guy, would she be in the same position? ;)

And, I hope my forum friends realize my jest.

Padres Son
08-30-2008, 01:07 AM
Judging by the response to the poll... McCain may have made a mistake.

Palin is pretty hot though.

cubsbears1225
08-30-2008, 01:27 AM
Palin

Their debate should be a good one. I can see Biden being a real jerk towards her.

I hope she schools his ***.

SmthBluCitrus
08-30-2008, 01:35 AM
Palin

Their debate should be a good one. I can see Biden being a real jerk towards her.

I hope she schools his ***.

LoL - if Sarah Palin is in school, Biden is the professor.

And, why would Biden be a "real jerk" towards her. You do realize that he has done more for women's rights than most anybody else can claim -- including John McCain and Mrs. Palin, herself.

I guess if by "jerk" you mean somebody that is more knowledgeable about domestic and international affairs, and is willing to express that knowledge in a debate forum to utterly "school" her ... then yes, he'll be a huge jerk.

KingJamsI
08-30-2008, 02:05 AM
As a Democrat, it's obvious ... Biden.

But, considering them strictly head-to-head at face value from a non-biased position would probably be concluded with Biden as well.

I mean, seriously ... if she was a mid-40's white guy, would she be in the same position? ;)

And, I hope my forum friends realize my jest.

yes, but behind every joke there's some truth. Bottom line. no white male, with 20 months governorship under their belt and a stint as mayor of igloo village would be selected as VP. And conservatives say they are against affirmative action....

gcoll
08-30-2008, 03:18 AM
Bottom line. no white male, with 20 months governorship under their belt and a stint as mayor of igloo village would be selected as VP
That's very true.

ink
08-30-2008, 03:22 AM
Don't underestimate her.

They may not win the election but she seems pretty capable on her feet. She will probably make a really strong impression with voters.

In_Ned_I_Trust
08-30-2008, 03:51 AM
Who cares they are VP candidates, in our nations history how many VP's have become Presidents? what a handful?

This "heartbeat away" crap is nonesense she has more executive experience than obama who is the actual Presidential candidate.

So who would you rather have an 1 1/2 senator in obama or a 2 year governor in Palin?

WES445
08-30-2008, 04:34 AM
Who cares they are VP candidates, in our nations history how many VP's have become Presidents? what a handful?

This "heartbeat away" crap is nonesense she has more executive experience than obama who is the actual Presidential candidate.

So who would you rather have an 1 1/2 senator in obama or a 2 year governor in Palin?

Who is she? I am sure alot of people will ask that. What is her stand on anything?

ari1013
08-30-2008, 08:36 AM
Judging by the response to the poll... McCain may have made a mistake.

Palin is pretty hot though.
Why? I can't imagine anyone who was going to vote for him now deciding not to vote for him. At the same time he gambled that he might be able to bring in new voters. For now that's looking grim, but you never know. Maybe she's going to nail her speech next week.

Nate, on fivethirtyeight.com, brought up a good point:
Suppose Obama's up by 2 right now.
If Palin pays off, maybe McCain gains 3 points 50% of the time.
If she fails miserably, maybe he loses 10 points 50% of the time.

So now instead of losing all the time, he has a 50% chance to win, even if the other 50% is losing big -- since a loss is a loss.

ari1013
08-30-2008, 08:38 AM
Who cares they are VP candidates, in our nations history how many VP's have become Presidents? what a handful?

This "heartbeat away" crap is nonesense she has more executive experience than obama who is the actual Presidential candidate.

So who would you rather have an 1 1/2 senator in obama or a 2 year governor in Palin?
Let's count shall we?

Obama was elected in 2004. He served in 2005, 2006, and 2007 for full years plus half of 2008. 1, 2, 3, 3.5

Palin was elected in 2006. She served in 2007 for a full year plus half of 2009. 1, 1.5

If you're going to play that game, at least get the numbers right.

ari1013
08-30-2008, 08:39 AM
yes, but behind every joke there's some truth. Bottom line. no white male, with 20 months governorship under their belt and a stint as mayor of igloo village would be selected as VP. And conservatives say they are against affirmative action....
That's why he should have taken Hutchinson (for the base) or Snowe (for the maverickness). Either woman would have definitely been a more solid pick all around.

JHG722
08-30-2008, 08:45 AM
For what it's worth, Biden is an adjunct professor at one of the worst law schools in the world.

ari1013
08-30-2008, 08:56 AM
For what it's worth, Biden is an adjunct professor at one of the worst law schools in the world.
I'm currently an economist in a below average department of economics (though granted I just started here). And yet I've given talks across the country and published in the top economics journal. Where you are doesn't affect who you are when it comes to academics.

JHG722
08-30-2008, 09:01 AM
Maybe not, but it's still pathetic.

ari1013
08-30-2008, 09:21 AM
Maybe not, but it's still pathetic.
It's the one close to home. I can't imagine Delaware has many other law schools.

Raidaz4Life
08-30-2008, 12:12 PM
I would have to go with Biden just because I am not a big fan of having a woman as president but I would probably despise Biden who comes across as arrogant to me

Bosox Believer
08-30-2008, 12:13 PM
I would have to go with Biden just because I am not a big fan of having a woman as president but I would probably despise Biden who comes across as arrogant to me

Oops. Read it wrong.

ink
08-30-2008, 12:25 PM
I would have to go with Biden just because I am not a big fan of having a woman as president but I would probably despise Biden who comes across as arrogant to me

What's wrong with having a woman as President??

Wrigleyboy25
08-30-2008, 12:28 PM
Sarah Palin: Bachelor's in Journalism and a minor in Political Science.
Joe Biden: Double Major in History and Political Science, (J.D. in Law), Adjunct Professor at Widener Law School, teaches seminar on Constitutional Law. He is the former Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Hahahaha. Tremendous job listing all of Biden's credentials but only Palin's education. Awesome and objective way to start a thread.

Wrigleyboy25
08-30-2008, 12:29 PM
What's wrong with having a woman as President??
Nothing if it is not Hillary :D

DenButsu
08-30-2008, 12:30 PM
Hahahaha. Tremendous job listing all of Biden's credentials but only Palin's education. Awesome and objective way to start a thread.

Okay, but if one were to stack up all their educational and career achievements combined, the proportion would still be similarly lopsided.

Wrigleyboy25
08-30-2008, 12:33 PM
Okay, but if one were to stack up all their educational and career achievements combined, the proportion would still be similarly lopsided.
No. He left off all her city council service, her employment history, her time as mayor, her campaign for lieutenant governor. She is an accomplished young woman, and he started the thread off ridiculously.

DenButsu
08-30-2008, 12:40 PM
No. He left off all her city council service, her employment history, her time as mayor, her campaign for lieutenant governor. She is an accomplished young woman, and he started the thread off ridiculously.

Lopsided as in quality and importance of qualifications, not quantity.

City Council? Mayor? Okay, cool, but do you honestly consider those presidential qualifications?

Seriously, Wrigley - worst case scenario (and although I wish for McCain to lose this election, I'd NEVER wish for this to happen, but if it did...)

North Korea?

Iran?

Russia?

Again, I understand that McCain has the experience edge over Obama, and that the burden of proof is on Obama to make the case for good judgment and cool headedness and contemporary understanding over experience in this election - which ultimately is, of course, just between the two of them.

But in that worst case scenario, would you seriously entrust the lives of the American citizenry to a person who less than a month ago flat out said she didn't understand what the job of the vice president is?

ink
08-30-2008, 12:51 PM
Nothing if it is not Hillary :D

I agree with you about Clinton. I think she did a fantastic job with her magnanimous convention speech, but in reality she was just helping to repair the all-or-nothing damage she did in the primaries. I actually think Hillary is a very divisive, old school politician. I also don't think she had a chance at winning the election. There is virulent dislike for her among the Repub. voters that was somehow forgotten about by the Dems.

Wrigleyboy25
08-30-2008, 01:15 PM
Lopsided as in quality and importance of qualifications, not quantity.

City Council? Mayor? Okay, cool, but do you honestly consider those presidential qualifications?

Seriously, Wrigley - worst case scenario (and although I wish for McCain to lose this election, I'd NEVER wish for this to happen, but if it did...)

North Korea?

Iran?

Russia?

Again, I understand that McCain has the experience edge over Obama, and that the burden of proof is on Obama to make the case for good judgment and cool headedness and contemporary understanding over experience in this election - which ultimately is, of course, just between the two of them.

But in that worst case scenario, would you seriously entrust the lives of the American citizenry to a person who less than a month ago flat out said she didn't understand what the job of the vice president is?
I didn't say her qualifications were more impressive than Biden's, I said the dude was ridiculous in leaving off all of her qualifications to sway the responses of the thread.

As for her quote, the VP is overrated, and I think she was being facetious.

PUGS1688
08-30-2008, 01:19 PM
Neither

Kimura by Putin
08-30-2008, 01:19 PM
Biden.

----------------

edit-


-Sarah Palin, less than two months ago (http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/32313/1/Kudlow-Palin-VP.wmv/) (<- direct video link)

^Think we might be seeing more of that one? :rolleyes:

What was the purpose for posting this video?

Please, shed some like on this issue.

Kimura by Putin
08-30-2008, 01:20 PM
Okay, but if one were to stack up all their educational and career achievements combined, the proportion would still be similarly lopsided.

Thank you very much for the conclusion.

DenButsu
08-30-2008, 01:29 PM
What was the purpose for posting this video?

Please, shed some like on this issue.

That less than 2 months ago she was totally unfamiliar with the job requirements of the Vice President of the United States of America - the same job which she and John McCain are asking us to elect her into office for now.

nascar10294
08-30-2008, 04:59 PM
I believe McCain made the right choice, but I'd rather have Biden. I think my answer will change in a couple weeks when Palin is ripping apart Biden in debates. I heard her answers are short, as to Biden who is a talker.

Raider_Vet
08-30-2008, 05:33 PM
I didn't say her qualifications were more impressive than Biden's, I said the dude was ridiculous in leaving off all of her qualifications to sway the responses of the thread.

As for her quote, the VP is overrated, and I think she was being facetious.
19 months as Governor of a state with a very low population and Mayor of a town of 9,000, and ZEROinternational experience.. What more is there to tell? This was a stupid and bad pick and you know it. If you have other qualifications that we don't know about how about listing them instead of bashing the the poster of this thread?:confused: Also if that old fool McCain keels over you realy think she is ready to hold the most powerful political office in the world? Please!!!!!! Just another example of McCain's poor judgement.
I believe McCain made the right choice, but I'd rather have Biden. I think my answer will change in a couple weeks when Palin is ripping apart Biden in debates. I heard her answers are short, as to Biden who is a talker.You have lost your ****ing mind if you think this lady will tear up Joe Biden in debates.

PUGS1688
08-30-2008, 06:09 PM
Raider has hit on a good point. While she might have been the smart pick for McCain, it is a choice that in no way actually benefits the country if she is elected.

If you really need me to explain that, then I will.

ink
08-30-2008, 06:17 PM
Raider has hit on a good point. While she might have been the smart pick for McCain, it is a choice that in no way actually benefits the country if she is elected.

If you really need me to explain that, then I will.

BoSox Believer put it well in another thread:


McCain's newest slogan is "Country First". If he really believed that experience was the issue, he would have never chosen Palin, a clearly "political" move. He is putting campaign first here.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265921

Raider_Vet
08-30-2008, 06:24 PM
Raider has hit on a good point. While she might have been the smart pick for McCain, it is a choice that in no way actually benefits the country if she is elected.

If you really need me to explain that, then I will.There were other females that would of been a good choice like Kay Bailey Hutchinson , Liz Dole, and M. Jodi Rell to name a few. But Palin was just a horrible pic!!!!

b1e9a8r5s
08-30-2008, 06:27 PM
Let's count shall we?

Obama was elected in 2004. He served in 2005, 2006, and 2007 for full years plus half of 2008. 1, 2, 3, 3.5

Palin was elected in 2006. She served in 2007 for a full year plus half of 2009. 1, 1.5

If you're going to play that game, at least get the numbers right.

I believe he/she said executive experience to which Obama has none.

b1e9a8r5s
08-30-2008, 06:35 PM
BoSox Believer put it well in another thread:
McCain's newest slogan is "Country First". If he really believed that experience was the issue, he would have never chosen Palin, a clearly "political" move. He is putting campaign first here.
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265921

Was Obama, snubbing the public funding, which he has been a supporter of, a move for the country or for his campaign?

ink
08-30-2008, 06:40 PM
I believe he/she said executive experience to which Obama has none.

Neither do Biden or McCain.

PUGS1688
08-30-2008, 06:51 PM
Bob Barr in 08!!

tbron
08-30-2008, 06:52 PM
if the old fart bites it we'd have a "hockey mom" running things. you know my answer.

Raider_Vet
08-30-2008, 06:55 PM
if the old fart bites it we'd have a "hockey mom" running things. you know my answer.or worse yet, a conservative republican! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

ari1013
08-30-2008, 08:40 PM
I believe he/she said executive experience to which Obama has none.
No. He said Obama has 1.5 years in the Senate.

ari1013
08-30-2008, 08:41 PM
Was Obama, snubbing the public funding, which he has been a supporter of, a move for the country or for his campaign?
I love how Republicans are in favor of public funds now but once the election is over they'll go back to condemning campaign finance laws.

papipapsmanny
08-30-2008, 10:24 PM
its pretty easily biden

people trying to make an arguement for palin makes u look very foolish

sboyajian
08-31-2008, 12:37 AM
The fact that she has 13 votes right now tells me people are voting for party and not purpose. She has no business being 2nd in command and 1st in line should McCain die at the tender age of 134..

b1e9a8r5s
08-31-2008, 02:33 AM
No. He said Obama has 1.5 years in the Senate.

Upon further review, your right. I believe he meant to say 1.5 years in the senate before running for president.

b1e9a8r5s
08-31-2008, 02:35 AM
I love how Republicans are in favor of public funds now but once the election is over they'll go back to condemning campaign finance laws.

Just like Obama is in favor of it, unless he has a better chance of winning without it. It's politics, which was my original point.

quade36
08-31-2008, 06:28 AM
I think Palin is just a face of the image Republicans wanted to put along McCain. Thats what scares me most. The whole hockey mom who is pro abortion pro oil drilling in Alaska and a conservative Christian answers questions that every non McCain fan had. You have a woman showing the Republicans are willing to move to a new generation (for the younger crowd who feel McCain is too old) and you have that conservative that a lot of Republicans in the Christian belt who voted for Huckabee can turn to since they aren't big fans of McCain.

Very interesting strategy. Very smart.

ari1013
08-31-2008, 10:22 AM
Just like Obama is in favor of it, unless he has a better chance of winning without it. It's politics, which was my original point.
Gotcha. I thought you were condemning him on hypocrisy when it's clearly not just a one-way street.

abe_froman
08-31-2008, 04:11 PM
I think my answer will change in a couple weeks when Palin is ripping apart Biden in debates. I heard her answers are short, as to Biden who is a talker.

there will be questions on iraq in the debates(not maybe,there will be).now take biden who has an opinion and all this foreign relations experience,while gov. palin knows little about iraq and has no opinion on it,not my words this is by her own admission.so by the time of the debates,which is only a short time away she is going to have to form an opinion and develop an argument to back it up...one strong enough that can withstand the foreign relations expert and reporters trying to poke holes in it.

so being honest(no spin,no partisanship),is that wanting,wishing,hoping or an actual belief?

b1e9a8r5s
08-31-2008, 04:29 PM
there will be questions on iraq in the debates(not maybe,there will be).now take biden who has an opinion and all this foreign relations experience,while gov. palin knows little about iraq and has no opinion on it,not my words this is by her own admission.so by the time of the debates,which is only a short time away she is going to have to form an opinion and develop an argument to back it up...one strong enough that can withstand the foreign relations expert and reporters trying to poke holes in it.

so being honest(no spin,no partisanship),is that wanting,wishing,hoping or an actual belief?

Well her opinion is going to be that John McCain had the foresight to call for the surge....etc, etc. McCain has found solid footing on Iraq, despite it being an unpopular war, so I don't think it will be quite the minefield that your making it out to be in the debates.

eyememine
08-31-2008, 04:37 PM
Man I thought this was gonna be "who would you rather have in the sack" and my choice would have def been Palin

hoosiercubsfan
08-31-2008, 04:55 PM
its pretty easily biden

people trying to make an arguement for palin makes u look very foolish

It is pretty easily Biden for you maybe. But to say an argument for Palin makes that person silly? No that thought process makes you look foolish and close minded. Just because it isn't your position does not make it any more foolish than an argument putting out the statement by Biden that Obama is not ready to lead or the same comments by the Clinton's. You believe your point of view I'll believe mine but to belittle someone for making a case for Palin is very close minded.

DenButsu
08-31-2008, 08:36 PM
Well her opinion is going to be that John McCain had the foresight to call for the surge....etc, etc. McCain has found solid footing on Iraq, despite it being an unpopular war, so I don't think it will be quite the minefield that your making it out to be in the debates.

Well, that wasn't her opinion just two months ago (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/09/08/080908ta_talk_gourevitch?printable=true):


Then again, on McCain’s signature issue—the prosecution of the war in Iraq—she did not sound so gung-ho. Her son is a soldier, and she said, “I’m a mom, and my son is going to get deployed in September, and we better have a real clear plan for this war. And it better not have to do with oil and dependence on foreign energy.”

In fact, that doesn't sound to me like she has that strong of an opinion - or understanding - of McCain's (or anyone else's) plan for the war to begin with.

And on a different subject, but from the same article:


Before she was running against him, Sarah Palin—the governor of Alaska and now the Republican candidate for Vice-President of the United States—thought it was pretty neat that Barack Obama was edging ahead of John McCain in her usually solidly red state. After all, she said, Obama’s campaign was using the same sort of language that she had in her gubernatorial race. “The theme of our campaign was ‘new energy,’ ” she said recently. “It was no more status quo, no more politics as usual, it was all about change. So then to see that Obama—literally, part of his campaign uses those themes, even, new energy, change, all that, I think, O.K., well, we were a little bit ahead on that.” She also noted, “Something’s kind of changing here in Alaska, too, for being such a red state on the Presidential level. Obama’s doing just fine in polls up here, which is kind of wigging people out, because they’re saying, ‘This hasn’t happened for decades that in polls the D’ ”—the Democratic candidate—“ ‘is doing just fine.’ To me, that’s indicative, too. It’s the no-more-status-quo, it’s change.”

This was two weeks ago, at the statehouse in Juneau. ...

So the possibility that Obama might win Alaska did not worry Palin: “Turning maybe purple in the state means, to me, it’s more independent, it’s not the obsessive partisanship that gets in the way of doing what’s right for this state, and I think on a national level that’s what we’re gonna see.”


Seriously - was she vetted at all?

yaowowrocket11
08-31-2008, 08:42 PM
Biden has been a part of Washington for over 30 years. Palin has been governor of Alaska for 2 years, and the only difference she has made is in the issue of drilling in Alaska, which McCain opposes. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Lady's Man
08-31-2008, 10:22 PM
i dont know which pick is better because i know nothing about them. I will say this though. Senators tend to be more of a "politican" than governors. All the people in washington seem to do is scratch the backs of other senators and follow what their lobbies want them to do. And is it just me, or does biden have this smirk of a smile? i wanted to punch him the other night. But both moves are obviously politically motivated.

TheLogical
09-01-2008, 02:13 AM
For those who are Republicans and Democrats respectively, we both know that Joe Biden was the better choice. Regardless of who wins we both know that Biden was the better choice.

My standpoint:

McCain chose Palin because he wanted the lure in the Hillary Clinton voters to vote for another woman. This is the wrong decision,

Hillary had experience, which is why most people voted for her, not because of her sex. This is where McCain screwed up greatly.

Experience:

Palin: about 1.5 years in office.
Biden: about 35 years in office.

adv: Biden

Credits:


Biden: Senator of Delaware, Double Major in History and Political Science, (J.D. in Law), Adjunct Professor at Widener Law School, teaches seminar on Constitutional Law. He is the former Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee and Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Palin: Governor of Alaska, Bachelor's in Journalism and a minor in Political Science.

adv: Biden

Winner is: Biden, 2-0

DreamShaker
09-01-2008, 02:17 AM
They are both completely hypocritical selections....they pretty much selected people with the exact same qualities that they have been tearing thier opposing candidates apart for.....

DreamShaker
09-01-2008, 02:20 AM
Well, that wasn't her opinion just two months ago (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/09/08/080908ta_talk_gourevitch?printable=true):



In fact, that doesn't sound to me like she has that strong of an opinion - or understanding - of McCain's (or anyone else's) plan for the war to begin with.

And on a different subject, but from the same article:




Seriously - was she vetted at all?

I don't think it matters about her view on the war....she is the Gov. of Alaska...which isn't a real state but still....I don't see that as an issue at all....

DenButsu
09-01-2008, 02:23 AM
DS, you cannot be serious.

Not having an opinion on THE single defining world event of this decade "isn't an issue" for the Vice President of the United States of America?!?!?

?!?


?!?!?!?!?!?!?

redbird89
09-01-2008, 02:32 AM
About the whole "baby gate" thing, it really makes no sense.

The 2 pics I've seen of Bristol (the oldest daughter) are from late 2007 and March 2008.

Trig, the baby, was due in May and born in April, correct? That means he was probably conceived in August. Bristol could be, at most, 4 months pregnant. Girls don't necessarily show at 4 months. Then in March 2008, when she's "7 months pregnant" her belly has not changed at all.

Between 4 months and 7 months, a woman's belly will change quite a bit.

The whole Baby Gate makes no sense. Neither does Sarah's not looking pregnant, but Bristol doesn't look pregnant either. She has a belly. Not all teenage girls are super skinny.

DreamShaker
09-01-2008, 02:35 AM
DS, you cannot be serious.

Not having an opinion on THE single defining world event of this decade "isn't an issue" for the Vice President of the United States of America?!?!?

?!?


?!?!?!?!?!?!?

WARNING: Scrambled thoughts.

Wait...for some reason I thought she said that before the war....but she's only been the Gov for 2 years so i'm mistaken by alot....I re-read it and I understand where your coming from....thing is by the election i'm guessing they will get together and further discuss his plans on the war...so the fact that she's not totally in-tuned to McCain's full strategy on the war is not a problem....because she will very soon....what I am kinda confused about it if she currently doesn't know his full plan....does she have a choice to disagree??? I dunno to be honest I don't think any of these guys have a concrete plan about anything right now....and I don't believe in either one of these guys to a great degree....I dislike Obama more....but whoever is elected I will just hope and pray they do the right things and do what's best for the country....but I don't have a great deal of faith in either one of these guys....

DenButsu
09-01-2008, 02:38 AM
WARNING: Scrambled thoughts.

Wait...for some reason I thought she said that before the war....but she's only been the Gov for 2 years so i'm mistaken by alot....I re-read it and I understand where your coming from....thing is by the election i'm guessing they will get together and further discuss his plans on the war...so the fact that she's not totally in-tuned to McCain's full strategy on the war is not a problem....because she will very soon....what I am kinda confused about it if she currently doesn't know his full plan....does she have a choice to disagree??? I dunno to be honest I don't think any of these guys have a concrete plan about anything right now....and I don't believe in either one of these guys to a great degree....I dislike Obama more....but whoever is elected I will just hope and pray they do the right things and do what's best for the country....but I don't have a great deal of faith in either one of these guys....

Obama has had a concrete plan for a long time.

In fact, Bush and Iraq just agreed to implement it. (timetable for withdrawal)

DreamShaker
09-01-2008, 03:03 AM
Obama has had a concrete plan for a long time.

In fact, Bush and Iraq just agreed to implement it. (timetable for withdrawal)

Well that's good now we don't have to elect him:p

Honestly though what i'm saying is until you are actually president it's hard to have a concrete plan....you can have ideas and such....and Obama does have some great ideas no doubt...sometimes....but things are gonna change when they become president either way.....everybody changes their mind and rightfully so the more info and experience they get....that's why I said that the VP chick not fully knowing everything doesn't fully bother me I guess....if that makes any sense.....

b1e9a8r5s
09-01-2008, 05:36 AM
Well, that wasn't her opinion just two months ago (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/09/08/080908ta_talk_gourevitch?printable=true):



In fact, that doesn't sound to me like she has that strong of an opinion - or understanding - of McCain's (or anyone else's) plan for the war to begin with.

And on a different subject, but from the same article:




Seriously - was she vetted at all?

DB, I respect you, but your being a little short sided on this I think. What was Biden's opinion of Obama or Obama's policies before coming aboard?

DenButsu
09-01-2008, 05:52 AM
DB, I respect you, but your being a little short sided on this I think. What was Biden's opinion of Obama or Obama's policies before coming aboard?

He was critical, and there's youtube stuff that can (and, I'm sure will) appear in commercials.

But I can guarantee you he damn sure never said it would be okay for a blue state to "go purple".

I'm not actually going to do this, but if you made a list of "Biden as a risky pick for Obama" items, and stacked it up next to "Biden as a clear asset pick for Obama" items, the risks would be there, but relatively few, while the assets would run off the page. I honestly do not believe that Palin's assets column can thus far be demonstrated to be longer than her risk column. Maybe she'll add to it as the campaign goes along, when she proves to be an adept speaker, a competent debater, and a skilled campaigner. If she does, I'll be proven wrong, and I'll admit it. But I'll be pretty damn surprised.

She's got a long way to go, and not much time to get there.

And I do have to ask, on the question of her not being well vetted, if she had been, wouldn't there have been more pre-emptive damage control? I mean it would not have taken more than the approximately 48 hours of google and youtube surfing that most liberal bloggers and investigative journalists have done (without even having to do any real leg work) for a McCain staffer to have been able to say, "Okay, if we're going to go this way, we better be ready for a a big ****storm, because there will no doubt be one coming."

I mean, all this stuff was right out there for anybody to plainly see. I have a really hard time believing that the McCain staff saw it and either chose to ignore it or chose to let it slide. It just makes a lot more sense that this was an impulsive selection. Maybe you disagree with that, but I think I'm being far from "short sighted" in drawing that conclusion. To me, it looks like the most likely scenario.

b1e9a8r5s
09-01-2008, 06:00 AM
She's got a long way to go, and not much time to get there.

And I do have to ask, on the question of her not being well vetted, if she had been, wouldn't there have been more pre-emptive damage control? I mean it would not have taken more than the approximately 48 hours of google and youtube surfing that most liberal bloggers and investigative journalists have done (without even having to do any real leg work) for a McCain staffer to have been able to say, "Okay, if we're going to go this way, we better be ready for a a big ****storm, because there will no doubt be one coming."

I mean, all this stuff was right out there for anybody to plainly see. I have a really hard time believing that the McCain staff saw it and either chose to ignore it or chose to let it slide. It just makes a lot more sense that this was an impulsive selection. Maybe you disagree with that, but I think I'm being far from "short sighted" in drawing that conclusion. To me, it looks like the most likely scenario.

What is "all this stuff" that was "right out there for anybody to plainly see"? I can only assume you are talking about the lack of experience.

DenButsu
09-01-2008, 06:32 AM
What is "all this stuff" that was "right out there for anybody to plainly see"? I can only assume you are talking about the lack of experience.

-the trooper scandal is the biggest thing - whether you believe it has legs or not, the investigator for the Alaska State Legislature is under a three-month contract which ends on October 31st, and is expected to release his report to the Alaska State Senate Judiciary Committee just days before the election, and that will obviously dominate the news cycle when it does. Even if she's cleared of any wrongdoing (something which there's no guarantee of), is
... "McCain running mate Sarah Palin cleared in trooper scandal"
the kind of headline he really wants to see on Halloween?

-her comment in 2006 that she didn't have an opinion on the surge because she hadn't focused enough on Iraq

-her comment less than 2 months ago that she didn't really know what the vice president does

-her laughter on the radio after the DJs attacked her political opponent by calling her a *****.

-the whole baby thing - I personally don't believe this one - and even if it were true, wouldn't really want to go there - but the rumor existed before she was picked; it's something that should have beed discovered in the vetting process if they'd done it properly



In general, it just seems to me that the McCain campaign was completely unprepared of this explosion of background and biography - much of it controversial even before she was picked - that has taken place.

Part of vetting is also battening down the hatches when you know a storm is coming. It really doesn't seem they did that.

ari1013
09-01-2008, 09:53 AM
I believe that McCain really wanted Uncle Joe to be his running mate but some of the higher-ups in the GOP nixed it and told him that he had to take a social conservative to balance his ticket. So he went for the most unorthodox social conservative he could find.

Informer
09-01-2008, 02:17 PM
Obama has had a concrete plan for a long time.

In fact, Bush and Iraq just agreed to implement it. (timetable for withdrawal)

Very true. Bush's staff had done nothing until Obama called for it. Also, Obama supported a troop surge which the Bush administration accomplished only after Obama had stated the obvious about Afghanistan.

Informer
09-01-2008, 02:18 PM
I didn't say her qualifications were more impressive than Biden's, I said the dude was ridiculous in leaving off all of her qualifications to sway the responses of the thread.

As for her quote, the VP is overrated, and I think she was being facetious.

Heh, call me what you want. I had no purposeful intention of leaving her accomplishments off the thread. I don't mind going back in there and editing it. However, that said, I don't see being a 'mayor' of a population less than where I live in (80,000+) an accomplishment. I would think the mayor here has greater issues to worry about than what she did with an 8,000 populous area.

That said, I did not see her involvement in others sectors until later onwards. Biden still carries a great advantage on her nonetheless and has been an advocate of women's rights compared her.

Informer
09-01-2008, 02:21 PM
I believe that McCain really wanted Uncle Joe to be his running mate but some of the higher-ups in the GOP nixed it and told him that he had to take a social conservative to balance his ticket. So he went for the most unorthodox social conservative he could find.

All I know Ari, is that she's going to get blasted for several things, most recently: 1) Her daughter being only 17 and getting pregnant 2) Her husband's DWI 3) Her ethics scandal 4)Pro-Life (Roe vs. Wade).

Guess she's really showing those conservative morals that they stand for, ain't she?

b1e9a8r5s
09-01-2008, 03:15 PM
All I know Ari, is that she's going to get blasted for several things, most recently: 1) Her daughter being only 17 and getting pregnant 2) Her husband's DWI 3) Her ethics scandal 4)Pro-Life (Roe vs. Wade).

Guess she's really showing those conservative morals that they stand for, ain't she?

This is comical. I didn't realize that her 17 yr old daughter is running for office, or her husband. The ethics thing is a "legit issue", but I don't see it turning into much. I have to imagine that the McCain camp went over this and was convinced it wasn't going to be a problem. As for the Pro-Life issue, this definitely helps her more than it hurts. She was picked to energize the base more than because she was a woman, IMO.

gcoll
09-01-2008, 03:21 PM
Very true. Bush's staff had done nothing until Obama called for it. Also, Obama supported a troop surge which the Bush administration accomplished only after Obama had stated the obvious about Afghanistan.

Are you being serious?


I believe that McCain really wanted Uncle Joe to be his running mate but some of the higher-ups in the GOP nixed it and told him that he had to take a social conservative to balance his ticket
My money was actually on "Uncle Joe"

I thought that Hillary would be the VP for Obama, and Lieberman for Mccain.

ink
09-01-2008, 03:25 PM
I believe that McCain really wanted Uncle Joe to be his running mate but some of the higher-ups in the GOP nixed it and told him that he had to take a social conservative to balance his ticket. So he went for the most unorthodox social conservative he could find.

Good point.


My money was actually on "Uncle Joe"

Looks like McCain might have expected that too. I think they look unprepared to have Palin on the ticket. Whatever vetting they did looks like it was rushed and incomplete.

(All that said, I think it's sickening to see Palin's family issues brought forward on the web and TV. I'd love to see a network take a clear stand on this and stop reporting the gossip. No "affairs" talk and no talk about children in the family.)

cubulls
09-01-2008, 03:28 PM
Sarah Palin is exactly what the white house needs. She's hot, fresh, exciting, and interesting. Joe Biden? More like Joe Boring. Obama dropped the ball on this one. He made the right choice but not the smart choice. The smart choice was Hillary. Props to McCain for making the smart choice. I am now actually somewhat tempted to go register to vote :D

gcoll
09-01-2008, 03:36 PM
Looks like McCain might have expected that too. I think they look unprepared to have Palin on the ticket. Whatever vetting they did looks like it was rushed and incomplete.
And as more info on it comes out......it leaves me more confused.


All that said, I think it's sickening to see Palin's family issues brought forward on the web and TV. I'd love to see a network take a clear stand on this and stop reporting the gossip. No "affairs" talk and no talk about children in the family
Not gonna happen. People love gossip. Gossip gets ratings....it's here to stay.

blenderboy5
09-01-2008, 03:41 PM
I know i'm late and I haven't read the previous posts, but here's my view.

Sarah Palin is more experienced than Barack Obama to be president. She's been in politics longer, actually done ****, held executive power (I usually favor those with executive experience over legislative experience), etc. So if the choice was between Obama and Palin, I'd vote for the *****.

That being said, she's running for the VP. The job of the VP is to be able to step in should the president die. In such a case, I believe Biden would be a better president than Obama and Palin and more ready to take control in a crisis.

Regardless I'm voting for McCain/Palin

ink
09-01-2008, 03:41 PM
And as more info on it comes out......it leaves me more confused.

Not gonna happen. People love gossip. Gossip gets ratings....it's here to stay.

At this point I'm feeling really sorry for that family. Those are issues that all families go through. If the Repubs had any sense that this stuff was ahead I don't know why they made the selection they did. Was it to show that they were dealing with normal family issues? If so, that's a good thing and it's good to see both parties acknowledging that people aren't perfect.

Now, can the networks all get back to the election?

QuietWyatt
09-01-2008, 03:49 PM
I know i'm late and I haven't read the previous posts, but here's my view.

Sarah Palin is more experienced than Barack Obama to be president. She's been in politics longer, actually done ****, held executive power (I usually favor those with executive experience over legislative experience), etc. So if the choice was between Obama and Palin, I'd vote for the *****.

That being said, she's running for the VP. The job of the VP is to be able to step in should the president die. In such a case, I believe Biden would be a better president than Obama and Palin and more ready to take control in a crisis.

Regardless I'm voting for McCain/Palin

Talking point noted. You're right about one thing, you're late.

yaowowrocket11
09-01-2008, 06:13 PM
I know i'm late and I haven't read the previous posts, but here's my view.

Sarah Palin is more experienced than Barack Obama to be president. She's been in politics longer, actually done ****, held executive power (I usually favor those with executive experience over legislative experience), etc. So if the choice was between Obama and Palin, I'd vote for the *****.

That being said, she's running for the VP. The job of the VP is to be able to step in should the president die. In such a case, I believe Biden would be a better president than Obama and Palin and more ready to take control in a crisis.

Regardless I'm voting for McCain/Palin

I haven't seen many things Palin has actually done as the Governor of Alaska. I know she was the chairman (or chairwoman?) of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission for about a year and a half. Nothing that impresses me, and lets me believe that she would be ready to step up, and be President of the United States, if necessary.

DenButsu
09-01-2008, 10:28 PM
This is comical. I didn't realize that her 17 yr old daughter is running for office, or her husband.


Just Askin'

September 01, 2008 1:26 PM

What would the response be if Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, and his wife Michelle had a pregnant unmarried teenage daughter?

-- jptabcnews (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/just-askin.html)

----------------------------


Sarah Palin is more experienced than Barack Obama to be president. She's been in politics longer, actually done ****, held executive power (I usually favor those with executive experience over legislative experience), etc.

"Executive experience":
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/wasillacityhall.jpg

---------------------------

And b1e9a8r5s, taking up again our previous discussion about vetting, there is now some pretty solid evidence that she was indeed NOT fully vetted before McCain chose her:
ABC News journo also says about 10 Republican operatives, including lawyers, are heading to Alaska for more background work on Gov. Palin. (http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/01/asked-and-not-answered/)
By definition, "vetting" is what's supposed to be done before the selection is made. Now McCain is sending a post-selection "vetting" team up to Alaska. To me this clearly indicates that pre-selection vetting was at best very incomplete.

And really, the vetting question is not about Palin, it's about McCain and what making this kind of spur-of-the-moment pick (even Tucker Carlson calls it "reckless") says about his judgment.


I'm going to leave this post with a conservative's reply to his fellow conservatives' reasons for supporting the Palin pick. The quoted part below is only the reasons he's responding to. If you want to see what he says about them, then follow the link. It's really worth reading, imho:


david frum's diary

Saturday, August 30, 2008

My Palin Mailbox - Updating

A torrent of reader mail has arrived in reply to my Palin posts - so much, that I reluctantly have to accept that I cannot follow my usual rule of answering every non-abusive email, pro or con.

The mail is overwhelmingly critical of me and supportive of the Palin choice, often euphorically so.

Let me summarize reader reactions before adding any new thoughts of my own.

1) Palin may or may not make a good president herself, but if she can help John McCain defeat Barack Obama, the choice will serve the country well.

...


2) Palin's accomplishments in Alaska, her strong values, and her appealing public image mean that she would be a good president. Maybe even a great one: after all, Theodore Roosevelt had served only briefly as governor of New York before he was added to the McKinley ticket in 1900.

3) This talk of "qualifications" is elitist and condescending. As one reader put it: "We Americans trust ourselves to run the country much better than the crowd in D.C. has been doing." Another: "Don't tell us (those in small towns ) that we don't have what it takes to keep a county on the right track."A third: "I have no doubt that there are at least 100,000 Americans who can easily perform the duties of president. 1 out of every 3000. Easy to find. Sarah Palin is one of these. She will do fine."

4) Okay, maybe she is less prepared than I'd ideally prefer. But how are Obama's qualifications any better?

Let me start with point 4.

I (and most NRO readers) will vote against Barack Obama because I oppose his ideas. He is (at best) an old-line Walter Mondale taxer, spender, and regulator possibly still under the influence (at worst) of the radical alienation from America preached in his church and expressed in his own early writings. I'd vote against a candidate like this even if he had previously served as CEO of Google, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Governor of California, with a Nobel prize on top of it all.

That said.........
full story here at national review online (http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTkyNjQ4MTYzMmY1NTkzNDlmMzQ3OGQ4ODJlNTVkZTU=)

ink
09-01-2008, 10:45 PM
^ Good insight into the flack David Frum is getting for breaking ranks. This bit of viewer mail is sig worthy:


"I have no doubt that there are at least 100,000 Americans who can easily perform the duties of president. 1 out of every 3000. Easy to find. Sarah Palin is one of these. She will do fine."

1 out of every 3000.

And by a similar standard probably 1 out of every 500 would be able to be a US Senator, 1 out of every 50 would be able to be the President of the Harvard Law Review, and 1 out of every 10 Americans probably has a resume that includes a mix of specialized knowledge about: international relations, disarmament, grassroots community and voter activism, constitutional law, Senate Committees on Foreign Relations, Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions, Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, Veterans' Affairs, and Chairman's experience on the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs. Dime a dozen stuff really.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-02-2008, 10:47 AM
I don't want someone dictating education policy who pushes abstinence and evolution education. Our education system is already in trouble, this would make it worse.

PHX-SOXFAN
09-02-2008, 10:52 AM
Tucker Bounds got owned yesterday on CNN by Campbell. Tucker was making the case that Palin had foreign policy experience because she was in charge of the Alaska National Guard. She kept asking him for one decision she made in command of the Alaska National Guard and he couldn't give anything. He just kept saying she was in a position in charge of it and that made her more qualified than Obama. It was hilarious to watch him squirm. tHis is worse than an Obama supporter not being able to name an accomplishment. This is a top campaign adviser not knowing a relevant decision from someone on the ticket to defend their position. What a joke this selection is.

Youmustbekiddin
09-02-2008, 02:48 PM
palin..
at first all I read is "who would you rather have?" and since I am a straight male, the answer was easy.;), but either way I'll stick with my first answer...

Padres Son
09-02-2008, 04:01 PM
I can say that McCain lost my girlfriend's vote with this selection. Aside from not liking many of the things Palin stands for, my girlfriend was upset that McCain is playing pure politics by choosing a woman with weak credentials rather than the best-qualified candidate. He's clearly grasping for the Hillary/women's vote and it's an insult to women to think that they'd somehow not notice the difference between Hillary, the far-left democrat, and Palin, the far-right republican. Does he really think women voters are too dumb to realize that Palin opposes Hillary on nearly every single issue?

And aside from all that she's got very little experience, family issues, and an ethics scandal. McCain would have been better off choosing a more qualified candidate than pandering for women's votes with a cheap political ploy.

IS27NY
09-03-2008, 04:05 PM
Ill stick with Palin and tonight and when she debates Biden, a lot of people will see why I chose her