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View Full Version : D Line overrated?



moneyball
08-27-2008, 07:58 AM
The fact that we play a 3 man line certainly affects their performance but they seldom get to a QB quickly, or shut down a top running back. Are they overrated or is it their job just to hold their ground, tie up blockers and let LBs make the plays?

tonyd3b54
08-27-2008, 12:17 PM
ive always thought our dline was overrated in the pass rushing sense.... but i also think they are amazing at stopping the run....most of the running people do on us is either poor tackling or the linebacker inability to get off their blocks.... i see more and more that bruschi is easily removed from plays cuz he cant get off his blocks as well as he used to...

Wake's Fastball
08-27-2008, 01:46 PM
I don't know how they're overrated, all three have made pro bowls (at least I believe Warren has) and Green's one of the better sub DEs in the league. Between the three of them, they can usually eat up the entire offensive line on any given play, and they're basically in charge of letting the LBs go to work. Vrabel and (in the past) Colvin wouldn't be nearly as exceptional at the pass rush if they didn't have Wilfork, Warren and Seymour up front.

Ex-Redskins Fan
08-27-2008, 07:10 PM
The fact that we play a 3 man line certainly affects their performance but they seldom get to a QB quickly, or shut down a top running back. Are they overrated or is it their job just to hold their ground, tie up blockers and let LBs make the plays?

Your last question is the answer. You won't see any front 3's provide much of a pass rush - it's not their focus. Just push the pile into the pocket, stuff the run, and tie up blockers which they do better than anyone. Your front 3 is the envy of the league.

bagwell368
08-27-2008, 09:41 PM
As I have contended for the past two years, Seymour has played well below his '02 and '03 level in in '06 and '07 due to injury. But even with a fully loaded Seymour, it's not a pass rushing D line.

It is designed to suck up 5 OL on passing situations, and hold the fort on rushing situations. In passing one of outside LB's also rushes to give pressure, sometimes another LB or a S is added. For the rush it's all about LB tackles. If the secondary gets too many stops on running plays its bad (except for a guy like Rodney who is there as a tweener S/LB).

I believe Seymour will be traded or cut if he continues to have injury issues in the next two years - plus Wilfork's contract will be huge in '09 and they need the dough from someplace, and he not Seymour is the most valuable DL they have.

Wake's Fastball
08-27-2008, 10:37 PM
As I have contended for the past two years, Seymour has played well below his '02 and '03 level in in '06 and '07 due to injury. But even with a fully loaded Seymour, it's not a pass rushing D line.

It is designed to suck up 5 OL on passing situations, and hold the fort on rushing situations. In passing one of outside LB's also rushes to give pressure, sometimes another LB or a S is added. For the rush it's all about LB tackles. If the secondary gets too many stops on running plays its bad (except for a guy like Rodney who is there as a tweener S/LB).

I believe Seymour will be traded or cut if he continues to have injury issues in the next two years - plus Wilfork's contract will be huge in '09 and they need the dough from someplace, and he not Seymour is the most valuable DL they have.

I'm not going to contend that he's as good as he used to be, but he gets at least double teamed on every single play, and Ted Washington used to be stellar at getting rid of those double teams for him.

mc6796
08-28-2008, 07:43 AM
[QUOTE=moneyball;6430785]The fact that we play a 3 man line certainly affects their performance but they seldom get to a QB quickly, or shut down a top running back. Are they overrated or is it their job just to hold their ground, tie up blockers and let LBs make the plays?[/QUO

Does this really need to be rehashed. In a 3-4 defense it is not the job of the down linemen to rush the passer. Their job is to draw the attention of as many linemen as possible. The pats dline is made up of three players who require a double. That leaves the lbs free to attack the ball. Oh yeah, last year the pats averaged 98 rushing yards agianst per game, 10th in the league. They also only allowed 190 passing yards per game, which is 6th. They overall allowing only 288 total yards per game, good enough to make them 4th in the league. So what is it, the D-Line or the CB that were over rated. If they had the 6th best passing defense in the league, they either had a great d-line or great dbs, which is it.

lil'papi
08-29-2008, 08:50 AM
Neither they just worked well together. ^^ Great is steel curtain or purple people eaters or fearsome foursome.

Plus they are employing more and more 4 -3. We don't have the edge rusher we need Vrabel is getting old and for me too heavy. Crable honestly looks to have the makeup for that OLB rush.
Hopefully getting everyone playing at once will help. Seymour needs to do more than hold up blocks that's absurd. He needs to make tackles on running plays. He needs to make a huge push into the pocket, so far, I don't see it.

Right now the D-line got mopped up by every first team offensive line we saw in pre-season. Deny all you like. Our O-line is a turnstyle ......

Last year was last year...the media the bangwagoneers all clinging to last year. I see 10-6 . Until I see a major improvement in both lines.

Dolphins will be better, Jets certainly will be. Buffalo , yep. We don't look better at this point. sorry......

Cowboy Up
08-30-2008, 11:06 AM
Honestly this team may be better suited to a 4-3. Seymore, Wilfork, Green, and Warren on the line with our old linebackers getting more rest as only 3 are on the field at once.

The line is fine, but the point of the d-line in a 3-4 is not to rush the passer and make huge plays, they're supposed to eat up blockers so the LBs can do that, which the LBs are older and slower and can't do it like they used to.

kbjohnson26
09-02-2008, 03:29 PM
Neither they just worked well together. ^^ Great is steel curtain or purple people eaters or fearsome foursome.

Plus they are employing more and more 4 -3. We don't have the edge rusher we need Vrabel is getting old and for me too heavy. Crable honestly looks to have the makeup for that OLB rush.
Hopefully getting everyone playing at once will help. Seymour needs to do more than hold up blocks that's absurd. He needs to make tackles on running plays. He needs to make a huge push into the pocket, so far, I don't see it.

Right now the D-line got mopped up by every first team offensive line we saw in pre-season. Deny all you like. Our O-line is a turnstyle ......

Last year was last year...the media the bangwagoneers all clinging to last year. I see 10-6 . Until I see a major improvement in both lines.

Dolphins will be better, Jets certainly will be. Buffalo , yep. We don't look better at this point. sorry......


Dude... you're making all these assumptions off of preseason?

Wait till the regular season before assessing the team's shortfalls.

The D-line has not looked great nor has the O-line but let's not let the preseason overshadow the past few year's accomplishments of both of those units.

bagwell368
09-02-2008, 07:58 PM
Honestly this team may be better suited to a 4-3. Seymore, Wilfork, Green, and Warren on the line with our old linebackers getting more rest as only 3 are on the field at once.

The line is fine, but the point of the d-line in a 3-4 is not to rush the passer and make huge plays, they're supposed to eat up blockers so the LBs can do that, which the LBs are older and slower and can't do it like they used to.

Errr... what old LB's?

Starters:

Vrabel just turned 33 2 weeks ago - that's "seasoned"
Thomas just turned 31 2 weeks ago - that's prime
Bruschi who will position share (Seau - 39 ?) is 35 - that's old
Mayo is 22 - that's a kid

Subs in order of liklihood to play defense:

Crable - 23
Woods - 26
Alexander - 26
Ruud - 24
Guyton - 22
Redd - 23

Seems pretty young to me. Crable is going to be a starter within 2 years IMO, and will see meaningful time this year. The LB's are younger then last year.

They will go 4-3 at times as they have, but the base defense will always be the 3-4 as long as BB coaches.

bagwell368
09-02-2008, 08:07 PM
Deny all you like. Our O-line is a turnstyle ......


The O-line is more banged up then last year now, but if you are basing this year off of last year, let me ask? How many sacks did Brady take last year? How many before Morris got hurt? How many teams with front 7's like the Giants are there? The Giants are not even as good as they were, and the Pats have now seen it, think BB has turned victim all of a sudden?? Do you think they will be as bomb happy as last year? I don't. I expect a tougher team, some young guys will get burned, but the schedule is very easy esp. early. A lot of things will be worked out the first 4 weeks.

The roster is easily either #1 or #2 in the NFL. The Colts are fading starting now (Harrison is done, but eating a huge amount of salary, the diminutive S is also playing on borrowed time). The Steelers may have peaked. Denver and Jacksonville are unclear. SD looks tough on paper - but if the knee of one very critical defender goes (and you can bet every chop blocker will be lining him up, then what?).

The NFC features the always overrated Boys, the last hurrah 'Hawks and another 2-4 teams that can make it to the SB, and go down to whatever AFC team greets them.

I see 13-3 or 12-4 - perhaps a home throughout the playoffs and certainly in the first round. The Bills may go 9-7, Jets 7-9, and Fins 5-11 - but at most only one of those wins comes at the Pats expense. That's 5-1 for starters and then games against some other noted world beaters. This isn't last years schedule.

nyyfan4life
09-02-2008, 11:34 PM
Look the job of the 3-4 DL is to tie up blockers and allow their linebackers to make plays. A good 3-4 D-linemen will never get much publicity because he will never usually have a ridiculous amount of stats. They do the dirty work in the trenches.

lil'papi
09-03-2008, 07:38 AM
Dude... you're making all these assumptions off of preseason?

Wait till the regular season before assessing the team's shortfalls.

The D-line has not looked great nor has the O-line but let's not let the preseason overshadow the past few year's accomplishments of both of those units.

DUDE, I'm making a clear rational thought based on what I saw at the end of last year. Some people have their heads in the sand.

I pray your assessment is right, but I doubt it.

O-line got turnstyled no matter pre-season or not , nobody with pride allows that to happen. D-line i'm not as worried about because of the depth and lack or healthy starters.

Dude, I'm worried. :)

lil'papi
09-03-2008, 07:45 AM
Look the job of the 3-4 DL is to tie up blockers and allow their linebackers to make plays. A good 3-4 D-linemen will never get much publicity because he will never usually have a ridiculous amount of stats. They do the dirty work in the trenches.

BS, they are supposed to make tackles 4-3 or 3-4. Of course they have different gap responsibilities , but the LB's also must cover. When they are playing well its in the other teams back field.

The OS LB has pass rush duties in the 3-4 is another.

No pressure = DB getting torched. Stop with the hold up lineman crap. They too need to get a push on passing downs. Running of course not......

lil'papi
09-03-2008, 07:52 AM
The O-line is more banged up then last year now, but if you are basing this year off of last year, let me ask? How many sacks did Brady take last year? How many before Morris got hurt? How many teams with front 7's like the Giants are there? The Giants are not even as good as they were, and the Pats have now seen it, think BB has turned victim all of a sudden?? Do you think they will be as bomb happy as last year? I don't. I expect a tougher team, some young guys will get burned, but the schedule is very easy esp. early. A lot of things will be worked out the first 4 weeks.

The roster is easily either #1 or #2 in the NFL. The Colts are fading starting now (Harrison is done, but eating a huge amount of salary, the diminutive S is also playing on borrowed time). The Steelers may have peaked. Denver and Jacksonville are unclear. SD looks tough on paper - but if the knee of one very critical defender goes (and you can bet every chop blocker will be lining him up, then what?).

The NFC features the always overrated Boys, the last hurrah 'Hawks and another 2-4 teams that can make it to the SB, and go down to whatever AFC team greets them.

I see 13-3 or 12-4 - perhaps a home throughout the playoffs and certainly in the first round. The Bills may go 9-7, Jets 7-9, and Fins 5-11 - but at most only one of those wins comes at the Pats expense. That's 5-1 for starters and then games against some other noted world beaters. This isn't last years schedule.

Don't care, teams are bringing more pressure , mark my words. NYG ate them up , but the Eagles showed them they could!

Brady doesn't get sacked because he has GREAT feet.

Our running game should have been employed more late last year, but they kept throwing, why, they couldn't run it consistently. Did you see the Baltimore game?

OK, preseason .... no Brady.

I feel very confident in my assessment.

you yours , lets see whos right. ;)

kbjohnson26
09-04-2008, 11:39 AM
DUDE, I'm making a clear rational thought based on what I saw at the end of last year. Some people have their heads in the sand.

I pray your assessment is right, but I doubt it.

O-line got turnstyled no matter pre-season or not , nobody with pride allows that to happen. D-line i'm not as worried about because of the depth and lack or healthy starters.

Dude, I'm worried. :)

I saw the games and how poor the team performed as a whole.

So yeah, I have concerns. But I also know alot of things change when you have a legitimate QB in place. And even a 80% Brady is better than any Back-up. I thought the line actually played well towards the end of the season (except the SB).

In the preseason without Brady, Teams stacked the box and the QB's held onto the Ball for wayy to long.

The bottom line is I don't think the team will be better than last year, but if we make any assumptions from what we saw in the preseason, then its going to be a long year.

Kcfanbaby212*
09-04-2008, 04:16 PM
well, i dont think nthe first quarater of the season is a good judgement of a team. Timing is still often off a bit, and as you know, Brady is going to be a bit rusty, as will the whole team.....Look how many teams start off sluggish, but finish of strong. Let them get a couple of games under their belt.