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batman8040
08-25-2008, 01:32 PM
It's time to change our thinking about the future of LeBron James, time to turn the viewpoint that James will leave Cleveland on its ear — for good reason.

Because the Cavs seem to have something very slick and important up their sleeve. And that is to keep James and give him a superstar-caliber cohort as a teammate.

The vision — and it's not a pipe dream — has James staying and playing on the same team as Dwyane Wade. Or Chris Bosh. Or Josh Howard. Or Amare Stoudamire. Or any of the other big-name NBA guys who can become a free agent in the summer of 2010.

Don't laugh.

There is only one NBA team positioned to sign two superstars in 2010, and that's the Cavaliers.

That's because there's only one team with a superstar and the cap room to sign another.

Everyone has been focusing on the cap space of the New Jersey Nets or the New York Knicks or Athens, Greece, but the Cavs quietly have manipulated themselves to the point that they have more salary-cap room than anyone for that offseason.

The Cavs have almost $30 million in cap space — and that counts James' salary, which will go away when he opts out of his final year.

As of today the Cavs have four players under contract (sort of) in 2010-11: James for $17 million (though he's probably going to be a free agent), Maurice Williams for $9.3 million, Daniel Gibson for $4 million and J.J. Hickson on a team option for $1.5 million.

That's it.

Wally Szczerbiak's contract expires after this season.

Ben Wallace goes after two seasons.

So does Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

Other players surely will be added to the roster, but the Cavs won't add anyone who will compromise their ability to bring in talent in 2010.

This, apparently, is what General Manager Danny Ferry always talks about when he says he wants to maintain future roster flexibility.

The Cavs realistically will be able to re-sign James and add another top-caliber player, as well as the other pieces and parts needed to make a team.

All they have to do is sign the other free agents first, then sign LeBron. Because NBA rules state a team can go over the cap to sign its free agent.

Another team might want to add James, of course. But no other team will be able to add James and another max contract. To do so, a team would need $40 million or so in cap room. The cap is projected to be $60 million in 2010, which means a team would have two guys with max deals and a bunch of other ''guys'' who would average, at the most, $2 million a year.

Which means it would be a bunch of Developmental League guys and two stars.

The myth of NBA free agency is that a standout will leave his team willingly.

The reality is that it doesn't happen that often. The perception grows because it is a huge story when someone like Steve Nash or Shaquille O'Neal changes teams. Most of the time, a player stays where he can make the most money for the longest number of years.

So the thinking should be to expect James to stay.

But the reality is that he could stay, and the Cavs — not the Knicks or the Los Angeles Lakers or the Miami Heat — could add another star to go with him.

Enough with the angst already.

As the Cavs no doubt are thinking — and if they're not thinking this way, they're nuts — it's not about James leaving Cleveland in 2010. It's about what superstar will join him in Cleveland.

nfl.nba23
08-25-2008, 03:19 PM
Wow that would be crazy!!!

CavsYanksDuke
08-25-2008, 03:57 PM
Nice post. Really good article.

monster_mash
08-25-2008, 03:58 PM
I've been saying this for 2 months now. Even posted about it. I dunno about getting D Wade to leave Miami but Amare, Howard, Bosh...drooling..

Cavs_Fan24
08-25-2008, 04:03 PM
I would LOVE for somethuing like this to happen. If we were to sign LeBron, then get a guy like Amare, we'd be unstoppable!

nfl.nba23
08-25-2008, 05:26 PM
I want Amare the most because he's to sick!!! Think about probably in two years our big 3 would be Mo-James-Amare... WoW

23LBJCleBrowns
08-25-2008, 05:50 PM
Best Post Of The Year!

nfl.nba23
08-25-2008, 07:43 PM
but this is in 2 Years 2010 free agents-
1. LeBron James- SF
2. Dwayne Wade- SG
3. Amare Stoudamire- PF
4. Dirk Nowitzki- PF
5. Chris Bosh- PF
6. Yao Ming- C
7. Tracy McGrady- SG/SF
8. Steve Nash- PG(Can Opt Out his Contract next Year)
9. Ray Allen- SG
10. Joe Johnson- SG
11. Manu Ginobili- SG
12. Michael Redd- SG
13. Tyson Chandler- C
14. Josh Howard- SF
15. Brandon Roy- SG
16. Rudy Gay- SF
17. LeMarcus Aldridge- PF
18. Randy Foye- PG
19. TJ Ford- PG
20. Carlos Boozer- PF( Can Opt Out his Contract next Year)
21. Jermaine O'neal- C
22. Shquille O'neal- C
23. Rip Hamilton- SG
24. Mike Miller- SG
25. Rafer Alston- PG
26. Stephen Jackson- SF
27. Udonis Haslem- PF
28. Rajon Rondo- PG
29. Brad Miller- C
30. Peja Stodakovic- SF

nfl.nba23
08-25-2008, 07:44 PM
Let's Just Say Wow and Wow

23LBJCleBrowns
08-25-2008, 07:57 PM
get me Chris Bosh please

23LBJCleBrowns
08-25-2008, 07:57 PM
and then go sign someone like mike miller or brad miller

AMC31
08-25-2008, 10:17 PM
That was a great post, i agree, I do think this is what Ferry is trying to do, even if we dont sign a big name, LeBron is not going to go to a bad Knicks or Nets team just to play there, all the Knicks and Nets fans think LeBron is going to sign with them the first day of the 2010 offseason, but it makes no sense because LeBron wants to win a Championship, not just play for a New York team and just suck and go nowhere.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
08-25-2008, 11:07 PM
Whenever you post a article you must also have a link.

It's a interesting idea, I think its pretty optimistic. It would be something else if we had Chris Bosh or Amare at the 4.

bigalow80
08-25-2008, 11:17 PM
nice article, good thinking but what about the money to sign the other 11 guys that are needed on the roster? won't that kill cap room? not to mention, every cavs fan wants to "win now" by adding a superstar. well, that means adding contract money and lowering your 2010 salary cap number. personally, i think the cavs are in a great position where they are. if they sign west, they will have a very good deep bench at just about every position. there is finally light at the end of the tunnel in there salary cap thus financially they are stable and they are getting younger at the main positions. i feel they will make a trade by the deadline but it will be a smart trade for a player who will help in their system (not necessarily a superstar aka Vince Carter-which would be the worst move ever) now and for the next few years.

IndyFan
08-26-2008, 09:39 AM
Whenever you post a article you must also have a link.

It's a interesting idea, I think its pretty optimistic. It would be something else if we had Chris Bosh or Amare at the 4.

the original article was on ohio.com. it is from the Akron Beacon Journal.

here is the link (http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/27328589.html).

:)

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
08-26-2008, 09:56 AM
the original article was on ohio.com. it is from the Akron Beacon Journal.

here is the link (http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/27328589.html).

:)

Thanks man. Again interesting article to say the least.

We have awhile to think about this.

IndiansFan337
08-26-2008, 10:23 AM
Well, there is one false thing about that article.
You can indeed go over the cap to re sign your own F/A's.

But you cannot just sign other F/A's before your own F/A's & use the cap space that became available when they opted out (or from their contract expiring).

You would have to renounce their rights in order to do that. And that is only something that you do when you do not intend to re sign the player.

So we would have $30 million in cap space if we renounced the rights to everyone. But if we wanted to re sign Z for two more years we couldn't yet renounce his salary. Same with any of the other expiring contracts.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
08-26-2008, 10:29 AM
Well, there is one false thing about that article.
You can indeed go over the cap to re sign your own F/A's.

But you cannot just sign other F/A's before your own F/A's & use the cap space that became available when they opted out (or from their contract expiring).

You would have to renounce their rights in order to do that. And that is only something that you do when you do not intend to re sign the player.

So we would have $30 million in cap space if we renounced the rights to everyone. But if we wanted to re sign Z for two more years we couldn't yet renounce his salary. Same with any of the other expiring contracts.

So does that destroy the articles purpose? What mean is: is the article impossible?

mattben8
08-26-2008, 03:19 PM
Don't worry Chief 0 o Wahoo......IndiansFan337 has it wrong, the article is NOT impossible, nor is it wrong in any way.

What the article states is that heading into the 2010 offseason when all those other free agent to-be's become available, the cavs will have approximately 30 million dollars in players' salary come off the books.

Ilgauskus, Ben Wallace, and Sasha Pavlovic will be the most noteable Cavaliers players to become free agents. When they become free agents the team NO LONGER has any “rights” to any player. They won’t have ANY “rights” to Big Z or to Big Ben or to Sasha, those players will be free agents, and therefore free to go to ANY team they wish. And to continue this point, they will not have to bring Z or Ben or Sasha back at their current salary levels, they can offer them any contract as high or as low as they choose. You can bet that no matter where he goes, Z will be signing for much less than 10 million a year, and so will Big Ben.

The same free agent rules apply to LeBron, who has an “opt-out” clause in his contract for that summer. That means that he can opt-OUT of his current contract and become a free agent as well, which drops another large salary OFF the Cavs’ books.

The DIFFERENCE is, that the Cavs will be able to offer LeBron more money and one more year than any other team in the NBA, and if they choose, they will be allowed, under the current collective bargaining agreement rules to go OVER the salary cap threshold to sign him—NO MATTER who they have signed already that offseason or any of the previous seasons.

If you would like an example, look no further than Gilbert Arenas, who became a free agent this offseason. He could have gone to any other team he wanted, but the largest contract anyone could have signed him to would have been 5 years at almost 90 million---because he was the Wizards’ free agent, they didn’t have any specific rights allowing them to retain Gilbert if he chose to sign somewhere else, but they DID have the ability to offer him a 6 year deal at almost 130 million….it’s simply a rule that gives a team more BARGAINING POWER……NOT….right’s to a player….Gilbert ultimately took less money to stay with Washington (signing for 6 years and 111 million) so that they would have the cap room to address other team needs…

But, this, much to many Cavalier fans amazement is the genius of Danny Ferry. He took longer contracts (ie: Larry Hughes) and turned them into larger (annually) contracts but with a shorter length (Wally and Big Ben)…what that big trade did was kept the Cavs at about the same level of competitiveness, but freed them up during what may very well be the two most prolific offseasons in the NBA’s history (2009 and 2010). Exciting things will happen, and don’t doubt it, because the Cavs have an owner who is not afraid to spend money, especially if it’s to win and especially if it’s for LeBron. The article is CORRECT, and accurate, the Cavs WILL be in a position to do those things, if they continue this course, and continue to stay wise.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
08-26-2008, 03:32 PM
Don't worry Chief 0 o Wahoo......IndiansFan337 has it wrong, the article is NOT impossible, nor is it wrong in any way.

What the article states is that heading into the 2010 offseason when all those other free agent to-be's become available, the cavs will have approximately 30 million dollars in players' salary come off the books.

Ilgauskus, Ben Wallace, and Sasha Pavlovic will be the most noteable Cavaliers players to become free agents. When they become free agents the team NO LONGER has any “rights” to any player. They won’t have ANY “rights” to Big Z or to Big Ben or to Sasha, those players will be free agents, and therefore free to go to ANY team they wish. And to continue this point, they will not have to bring Z or Ben or Sasha back at their current salary levels, they can offer them any contract as high or as low as they choose. You can bet that no matter where he goes, Z will be signing for much less than 10 million a year, and so will Big Ben.

The same free agent rules apply to LeBron, who has an “opt-out” clause in his contract for that summer. That means that he can opt-OUT of his current contract and become a free agent as well, which drops another large salary OFF the Cavs’ books.

The DIFFERENCE is, that the Cavs will be able to offer LeBron more money and one more year than any other team in the NBA, and if they choose, they will be allowed, under the current collective bargaining agreement rules to go OVER the salary cap threshold to sign him—NO MATTER who they have signed already that offseason or any of the previous seasons.

If you would like an example, look no further than Gilbert Arenas, who became a free agent this offseason. He could have gone to any other team he wanted, but the largest contract anyone could have signed him to would have been 5 years at almost 90 million---because he was the Wizards’ free agent, they didn’t have any specific rights allowing them to retain Gilbert if he chose to sign somewhere else, but they DID have the ability to offer him a 6 year deal at almost 130 million….it’s simply a rule that gives a team more BARGAINING POWER……NOT….right’s to a player….Gilbert ultimately took less money to stay with Washington (signing for 6 years and 111 million) so that they would have the cap room to address other team needs…

But, this, much to many Cavalier fans amazement is the genius of Danny Ferry. He took longer contracts (ie: Larry Hughes) and turned them into larger (annually) contracts but with a shorter length (Wally and Big Ben)…what that big trade did was kept the Cavs at about the same level of competitiveness, but freed them up during what may very well be the two most prolific offseasons in the NBA’s history (2009 and 2010). Exciting things will happen, and don’t doubt it, because the Cavs have an owner who is not afraid to spend money, especially if it’s to win and especially if it’s for LeBron. The article is CORRECT, and accurate, the Cavs WILL be in a position to do those things, if they continue this course, and continue to stay wise.

Very interesting.

Waresexual
08-26-2008, 04:56 PM
Only thing I hate about this is that it is in 2 years... but anyways who do you guys want the most from that list... I want Amare the most... but just scare at that list... WoW!!!

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
08-26-2008, 06:56 PM
Another thing is we would still have a offensive PG in Williams. I really hope this works and I hope the Mo Williams thing works.

IndyFan
08-26-2008, 09:02 PM
Well, there is one false thing about that article.
You can indeed go over the cap to re sign your own F/A's.

But you cannot just sign other F/A's before your own F/A's & use the cap space that became available when they opted out (or from their contract expiring).

You would have to renounce their rights in order to do that. And that is only something that you do when you do not intend to re sign the player.

So we would have $30 million in cap space if we renounced the rights to everyone. But if we wanted to re sign Z for two more years we couldn't yet renounce his salary. Same with any of the other expiring contracts.

IF337 is correct on the first part[bold] and incorrect on the second part[underlined]. when you renounce a player, you no longer can use his bird rights to resign him, but you can sign him like any other team if you have the cap space. the CBA gives home teams an advantage in resigning their own players, when you renounce them you can only sign them like they were someone elses FA. but you can sign them.

the important thing here is the first part. if the cavs had $30 mil in cap space, that is all the money they can use. they could not sign other free agents for $15 mil and then sign LBJ for $20 mil. that would put them over the cap and that is a no-no. if the cavs signed LBJ for $17 mil, they would have $13 mil to sign the rest of the team. after that the cavs could only offer min contracts.

if you want a more detailed explaination, i will provide one. the CBA is complex and easily misunderstood.

:)

mattben8
08-27-2008, 01:23 PM
LeBron's "Bird Rights" will be there no matter what. There are two things that the Cavs need to be weary of and "337" DID have it PARTIALLY right...

Any free agent that comes off the team’s books (think 2010 when Z, Big Ben, and Sasha become free agents) will have 125% of their salary STILL count against the Cavs cap unless one of the following three things happen:

1.) They sign with another team.

2.)They re-sign with their old team and the new contract’s specific numbers count against the cap.

3.)Their rights are renounced by their team (in this case, the Cavs). By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player, but they must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception or Midlevel Exception. The exception to this is an Early Bird free agent who is coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. Such players, when renounced, are treated as Non-Bird free agents.

If the player does not sign with any team (his prior team or any other team) for the entire season, then his renouncement continues. In other words, the team is not permitted to renounce a player, let him lie idle for the year, then re-sign him the following summer using Bird rights. However, if the player re-signs with his prior team, then his renouncement is no longer in effect when his contract ends.

Now that THAT is cleared up…let’s move on to the notion that the Cavs can sign another superstar and THEN sign LeBron WITHOUT renouncing LeBron’s rights.

This is true, this can very well happen, and here is why:

Because LeBron will be a free agent, his previous season’s salary cap number will still apply to the Cavs (in this case it’s 16-17 million), until he signs with another team, or resigns with the Cavs. Milwaukee did this in 2005 when Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.

If all the different types of Bird rights to Z (10 mil), Big Ben (15 mil), and Sasha (5 mil) are renounced, the Cavs will have their 30 million in salary cap space, NOT including whatever LeBron’s cap “hit” may be.

ANOTHER rule the Cavs can take advantage of is backloading the contract of the second supertstar that they bring in. The reason for this is because only the FIRST year of the deal needs to fit under the cap, so if there is a 5 year 80 million dollar deal for say….Chris Bosh, the Cavs could make the first year of the deal worth 8 million and the next FOUR years of the deal worth 18 million. And they can STILL sign LeBron afterwards for a MAX contract.

I stand by my earlier argument that the article was correct, and that the Cavs are in great shape.

Cavs_Fan24
08-27-2008, 09:16 PM
LeBron's "Bird Rights" will be there no matter what. There are two things that the Cavs need to be weary of and "337" DID have it PARTIALLY right...

Any free agent that comes off the team’s books (think 2010 when Z, Big Ben, and Sasha become free agents) will have 125% of their salary STILL count against the Cavs cap unless one of the following three things happen:

1.) They sign with another team.

2.)They re-sign with their old team and the new contract’s specific numbers count against the cap.

3.)Their rights are renounced by their team (in this case, the Cavs). By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. After renouncing a player, the team is still permitted to re-sign that player, but they must either have enough cap room to fit the salary, or sign the player using the Minimum Salary exception or Midlevel Exception. The exception to this is an Early Bird free agent who is coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. Such players, when renounced, are treated as Non-Bird free agents.

If the player does not sign with any team (his prior team or any other team) for the entire season, then his renouncement continues. In other words, the team is not permitted to renounce a player, let him lie idle for the year, then re-sign him the following summer using Bird rights. However, if the player re-signs with his prior team, then his renouncement is no longer in effect when his contract ends.

Now that THAT is cleared up…let’s move on to the notion that the Cavs can sign another superstar and THEN sign LeBron WITHOUT renouncing LeBron’s rights.

This is true, this can very well happen, and here is why:

Because LeBron will be a free agent, his previous season’s salary cap number will still apply to the Cavs (in this case it’s 16-17 million), until he signs with another team, or resigns with the Cavs. Milwaukee did this in 2005 when Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.

If all the different types of Bird rights to Z (10 mil), Big Ben (15 mil), and Sasha (5 mil) are renounced, the Cavs will have their 30 million in salary cap space, NOT including whatever LeBron’s cap “hit” may be.

ANOTHER rule the Cavs can take advantage of is backloading the contract of the second supertstar that they bring in. The reason for this is because only the FIRST year of the deal needs to fit under the cap, so if there is a 5 year 80 million dollar deal for say….Chris Bosh, the Cavs could make the first year of the deal worth 8 million and the next FOUR years of the deal worth 18 million. And they can STILL sign LeBron afterwards for a MAX contract.

I stand by my earlier argument that the article was correct, and that the Cavs are in great shape.

sickk, nice post.

cant wait til that free agency period comes:)

IndiansFan337
08-28-2008, 08:35 AM
So does that destroy the articles purpose? What mean is: is the article impossible?
Not impossible, but highly unlikely that we'll have all $30 million available. We aren't going to renounce the entire team. We can't have a 5 man roster.


Don't worry Chief 0 o Wahoo......IndiansFan337 has it wrong, the article is NOT impossible, nor is it wrong in any way.

What the article states is that heading into the 2010 offseason when all those other free agent to-be's become available, the cavs will have approximately 30 million dollars in players' salary come off the books.

Ilgauskus, Ben Wallace, and Sasha Pavlovic will be the most noteable Cavaliers players to become free agents. When they become free agents the team NO LONGER has any “rights” to any player. They won’t have ANY “rights” to Big Z or to Big Ben or to Sasha, those players will be free agents, and therefore free to go to ANY team they wish.
My explanation was actually correct.

Nobody renounces players that the intend to re sign unless they are scrub 12th-15th roster spot players.

I never said that those F/A's are restricted F/A's or that we hold any rights to them.

As I stated above, we are not going to renounce the entire team so that we can sign a second superstar & then go into that season with LeBron, superstar B, Mo Williams, Hickson, & bunch of scrubs.


IF337 is correct on the first part[bold] and incorrect on the second part[underlined]. when you renounce a player, you no longer can use his bird rights to resign him, but you can sign him like any other team if you have the cap space. the CBA gives home teams an advantage in resigning their own players, when you renounce them you can only sign them like they were someone elses FA. but you can sign them.
I know all of that. I did not say that if you renounce a player that you cannot resign him. I said that you typically don't renounce a player that you intend to re sign.

The only reason to renounce a player is to clear additional cap space. And if the player is expected to be re signed anyway, then clearing the cap space does you no good whatsoever.

mattben8
08-28-2008, 01:02 PM
MY point is that do you really think we intend to re-sign Z, Ben, AND Sasha? We MIGHT bring back Z depending on his health and performance in the final year of his current deal, but it certainly won't be for 10.5 mil per season, and he may very well want to see what his other options are, as I can't see the Cavs offering him a lot of money. Therefore it’s a logical step for the Cavs to renounce the rights of those three players so the can IMMEDIATELY go after a second superstar.

Second, going into the 2010 season we will have Mo, Boobie and Hickson under contract (as of THIS MOMENT). The 30 million in cap space that I mentioned is probably very close to accurate given that, throughout this discussion, none of us have taken into account the current expiring contracts of Wally, Andy, E. Snow (yes, he's still technically on our roster), and the rest of the scrubs with 1 year deals currently on our team (Allred, Kinsey and Thomas).

So it is VERY likely you could head into a season with LeBron, Superstar B, Mo, Boobie and Hickson as your core group.

Look at the current Celtics roster, a CHAMPIONSHIP winning team, they have 3 superstars, all making over 18 million (KG making 24 mil, Allen 18, and Pierce 18). The NEXT HIGHEST contract on that team is Kendrick Perkins for 4 million per year, then House at 2 mil, then Rondo for 1.3 mil.

With Hickson, Boobie, and Mo Wil, the Cavs it would seem have a supporting cast JUST as capable as the Celtics, and if we have LeBron and only ONE other superstar the numbers WILL add up, especially when you consider that we seem to be saving our midlevel exception and we’ll have 30 million to play with.

So lets do this, lets assume that the NBA’s Salary cap for that year will be about 61 million dollars (given that it’s currently around 58, and in two years it will probably go up 3 million). Let’s assume that the increase in the cap puts the luxury tax threshold at around 70 million (because it is currently at 67 mil). We need to remember, it’s not always the salary cap that owners worry about, it’s the luxury tax threshold.

So now we can go into the hypothetical of, we brought in Superstar B for an Elton Brand esque contract (5 years 80-90 mil), and LeBron for the Max, and Z for half of his current price (5 mil), AND let’s say we’ve just given Hickson a new deal for a little more than what we recently gave Andy (6 mil).

So here’s a Hypothetical Roster/Salary Breakdown (assuming we can get superstar B for an Elton Brand type of contract):

LeBron------------ 21 mil
Mo Wil ---------- 8.5 mil
Boobie ----------- 5 mil
Superstar B ------- 16 mil
Hickson ----------- 6 mil
Ilgauskus ----------- 5 mil

TOTAL: ---------- 56.5 mil

At this rate, the Cavs would have a solid core of LeBron, Superstar B, Mo Wil, Boobie, Hickson, and the veteran center Big Z, and they are STILL an estimated 4-5 million under the cap, and somewhere around 10-14 million UNDER the luxury tax threshold. At that rate, there’s a lot of Devin Brown/Eddie House/Leon Powe/PJ Brown type of role players that we can bring in for the minimum or CLOSE to the minimum. Remember, the vets always want to win, they’ll always want to get a title under their belt, and if the Cavs can put themselves in this position (and mathematically they CAN) they’ll be in GREAT shape for a 4-6 year run.

mattben8
08-28-2008, 01:06 PM
Not impossible, but highly unlikely that we'll have all $30 million available. We aren't going to renounce the entire team. We can't have a 5 man roster.

The only reason to renounce a player is to clear additional cap space. And if the player is expected to be re signed anyway, then clearing the cap space does you no good whatsoever.

-----1.) We most certainly CAN put ourselves in a situation where in the offseason our roster only has 5 guys on it. No one plays in the offseason, so if we trim it down as much as possible, we put ourselves in a better position to sign LeBron and another superstar.

-----2.) If you intend to resign a player, but you want to resign them AFTER all your other potential roster moves, OR if you haven't decided whether or not you want to resign them yet because you don't know about LeBron and Superstar B yet, then YES, you definitely renounce them.

Sbank
08-28-2008, 11:29 PM
-----1.) We most certainly CAN put ourselves in a situation where in the offseason our roster only has 5 guys on it. No one plays in the offseason, so if we trim it down as much as possible, we put ourselves in a better position to sign LeBron and another superstar.

-----2.) If you intend to resign a player, but you want to resign them AFTER all your other potential roster moves, OR if you haven't decided whether or not you want to resign them yet because you don't know about LeBron and Superstar B yet, then YES, you definitely renounce them.

We not going renounce the whole team with a core of LeBron, superstar B, Mo Williams, Hickson, and a many scrub players. You can't really make a run with a core of that and expect to get to a nba champion chip for a 4 to 6 year run. You have to have core of good players at point guard, foward, and a center. And having a solid bench is better then having a core of LeBron and Super star B Mo Williams, Hickson, and a many scrub players.

batman8040
08-29-2008, 10:41 AM
are bench is crap now and we have no depth and we seem to do well

mattben8
08-29-2008, 01:15 PM
The Cavs can most CERTAINLY renounce the whole team with the exception of a core group of six players. What about this are you people NOT reading? People are renounced so that their cap number doesn't affect the team while they are in free agency. I'm not saying the Cavs will enter the 2010-2011 season with ONLY six players, and if you think that, then YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.

When you renounce a player you simply give yourself more cap room while they linger in free agency, until they either sign with the Cavs or another team. It's a way to maneuver cap space while trying to lock down another legitimate superstar to play along side LeBron.

The idea here IS NOT to go into a season with only six guys, NOR is it to have two superstars and NO ONE else. The idea is to open up as much cap space as possible to lock down LeBron and a second star player, and it is an idea that could turn into a very realistic possibility. As far as filling in the gaps, filling out the bench, and going from there, look at teams like Boston and San Antonio. Both teams have 3 major contracts (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili -- Allen, Pierce, Garnett) and the rest of the players LITERALLY make under 4 million.

Are you arguing that those are scrap teams? That those are teams who's benches lacked depth or weren't capable of providing support for their superstar players?

Serviceable veterans, experience veterans, and low priced rookies will always be a part of the equation when it comes to filling out a rotation and a bench. The Spurs still employ Matt Bonner. When the hell have you seen him????

As I layed out in an earlier post, the Cavs will have an ample amount of room (even after the "hypothetical" signing of LeBron and Superstar B) under the cap and the luxury tax threshold to fill out a formidable supporting cast.

It is ignorant to argue otherwise, especially when considering that LeBron took this team to the NBA Finals on his own, with a LESS THAN AVERAGE supporting cast.

It's very feasable, it's very do able, and fans should be excited, not trying to claim that the Cavs will ONLY have six guys on their roster, don't be stupid....THINK....this makes SENSE.

kanersen
08-29-2008, 03:33 PM
that article is wrong on so many levels
first of all there are more teams then just the cavaliers to sign 2 max type players (or resign their own plus 1 more)

not gonna list them all but toronto alone has more then 40 million to spend in 010

mattben8
08-29-2008, 03:43 PM
You are right about that....but that's NOT what the article or any of these arguments were about....

it was whether or not the Cavs would be in a good position, and whether or not the Cavs COULD do something like that...

and they can....

but nevertheless, it's still Cleveland....

kanersen
08-29-2008, 03:51 PM
"There is only one NBA team positioned to sign two superstars in 2010, and that's the Cavaliers.

That's because there's only one team with a superstar and the cap room to sign another."

i'm pretty sure thats what the article was talking about, and is based on
and its completely and utterly 100% wrong

the reporter didn't even do a wrinkle of research to back up his or her claim, rather pathetic that they would print this stuff out honestly

any person has access to hoopshype.com or r e a l g m to check out the cap structure of each team in the coming years

if the cavs are so worried about losing lebron, just offer him a minority stake of the team like the lakers did with magic not so long ago

IndyFan
08-29-2008, 03:52 PM
ANOTHER rule the Cavs can take advantage of is backloading the contract of the second supertstar that they bring in. The reason for this is because only the FIRST year of the deal needs to fit under the cap, so if there is a 5 year 80 million dollar deal for say….Chris Bosh, the Cavs could make the first year of the deal worth 8 million and the next FOUR years of the deal worth 18 million. And they can STILL sign LeBron afterwards for a MAX contract.

I stand by my earlier argument that the article was correct, and that the Cavs are in great shape.

nice post. basically correct. one minor correction. the cavs cannot offer a deal of $8 mil the first year and $18 mil the next 4 years. raises are restricted by the CBA to 8% [or $640 k in this example] per year. that is to avoid the kind of tricks described.

:)

Sbank
08-29-2008, 05:51 PM
are bench is crap now and we have no depth and we seem to do well

Our bench is not that crappy. We have Gibson, Pavlovic, Varejao and Hickson. It not the best but it not the worst either though

Diehardheatfan
08-30-2008, 02:39 PM
Actually the Heat have the best chance. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm The heat can offer any superstar such as yours ( lebron james) and retain Wade with bird rights. Think about it hes not going to leave clevland for New york why would Lebron leave his hometown for New york when thats a huge step backwards. The only place i could see him going is miami. Its a big market and they have wade. They could give alot of money as well. Honestly i think he will stay in clevland and i also dont think they will land one of those stars. I think they are the team that can be like the lakers of last year. YOUR team is in great position. They just need to figure out how to get Ben wallace the anchor on defense again. They might need a new coach. But other than that this team is right there. They have all the pieces. AND an expiring contract in wally that can get you that star you need possibly via trade. I got clevland coming out of the east this year! Mo is huge for them. I think adding boozer witht that Wally money is the answer to all problems and he owes you for what he did to you guys. I like clevland and i think this is a big year for them. I dont think they have a shot at getting wade bosh or amare. I think they could get boozer or a great star like redd ina deadline deal. Alot of upside in clevland this year. But you gotta capitalize now. Good Luck

Sbank
08-30-2008, 07:09 PM
Actually the Heat have the best chance. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm The heat can offer any superstar such as yours ( lebron james) and retain Wade with bird rights. Think about it hes not going to leave clevland for New york why would Lebron leave his hometown for New york when thats a huge step backwards. The only place i could see him going is miami. Its a big market and they have wade. They could give alot of money as well. Honestly i think he will stay in clevland and i also dont think they will land one of those stars. I think they are the team that can be like the lakers of last year. YOUR team is in great position. They just need to figure out how to get Ben wallace the anchor on defense again. They might need a new coach. But other than that this team is right there. They have all the pieces. AND an expiring contract in wally that can get you that star you need possibly via trade. I got clevland coming out of the east this year! Mo is huge for them. I think adding boozer witht that Wally money is the answer to all problems and he owes you for what he did to you guys. I like clevland and i think this is a big year for them. I dont think they have a shot at getting wade bosh or amare. I think they could get boozer or a great star like redd ina deadline deal. Alot of upside in clevland this year. But you gotta capitalize now. Good Luck

We not going to get Boozer. He burn down to many bridges to come back. I do think we get an all star type player in 2010 though.

Diehardheatfan
08-31-2008, 04:01 AM
We not going to get Boozer. He burn down to many bridges to come back. I do think we get an all star type player in 2010 though.

Yeah Lebron might still want that guy. They dont need that much more there right there. I say make a play for redd

Sbank
08-31-2008, 11:32 AM
Yeah Lebron might still want that guy. They dont need that much more there right there. I say make a play for redd

Well we might want Boozer but trying to bring him sign him are two different things. We tried to get Redd but the Bucks wouldn't trade him. We might be able to try and get them if the Bucks fall out they might deal him.

Diehardheatfan
08-31-2008, 02:03 PM
Well we might want Boozer but trying to bring him sign him are two different things. We tried to get Redd but the Bucks wouldn't trade him. We might be able to try and get them if the Bucks fall out they might deal him.

You should like your chances considering the bucks arent a good team!!! They will fall off

kanersen
09-01-2008, 12:43 PM
the buck's starting 5 looks pretty good to me

ridnour
redd
jefferson
charlie v
bogut

very solid starting lineup with no holes
their bench though is pretty bad but i do expect them to be in a dogfight for the 7th and 8th seeds in the east

Sbank
09-01-2008, 01:43 PM
You should like your chances considering the bucks arent a good team!!! They will fall off

There starting 5 are good but all the East got better. I could see them competing for 7th and 8th seeds. In other words if the Bucks think they can make the playoffs they won't be willing to deal Redd.

Storch
09-02-2008, 02:16 AM
WOW! go cavs! hopefully they can sign amare or bosh to help out lebron. And a whole bunch of role players. awesome!

IndiansFan337
09-02-2008, 10:51 AM
-----1.) We most certainly CAN put ourselves in a situation where in the offseason our roster only has 5 guys on it. No one plays in the offseason, so if we trim it down as much as possible, we put ourselves in a better position to sign LeBron and another superstar.

-----2.) If you intend to resign a player, but you want to resign them AFTER all your other potential roster moves, OR if you haven't decided whether or not you want to resign them yet because you don't know about LeBron and Superstar B yet, then YES, you definitely renounce them.

I'm not sure if you understand the salary cap restrictions. Once you renounce a player you cannot re sign them for more than the MLE. You can't just renounce a player, go sign some big unrestricted F/A's & then re sign your renounced players back for unlimited sums of money.

If that was the case, the salary cap would be a joke. And there would pretty much be no reason for it to exist.

Therefore, it is highly unlikely that we would renounce Z & maybe one or two others.

Also, if we don't win the NBA Finals this season do you expect the Cavs to just stand pat next summer & wait for LeBron's F/A year to come? I don't think so. I think we will want to make a splash. Something to try & make him feel like we are trying to put a better team around him.

IndiansFan337
09-02-2008, 10:59 AM
The Cavs can most CERTAINLY renounce the whole team with the exception of a core group of six players. What about this are you people NOT reading? People are renounced so that their cap number doesn't affect the team while they are in free agency. I'm not saying the Cavs will enter the 2010-2011 season with ONLY six players, and if you think that, then YOU ARE NOT LISTENING.

When you renounce a player you simply give yourself more cap room while they linger in free agency, until they either sign with the Cavs or another team. It's a way to maneuver cap space while trying to lock down another legitimate superstar to play along side LeBron.
You give yourself more cap room, but then you cannot re sign that F/A for a significant amount. You are limited to the MLE, LLE & veteran's minimum.

If you have 6 players signed (in your scenario that would include LBJ + Superstar B), then you need to sign 6 more just to get to the league minimum of 12 players. And that's not factoring in any possible injuries. Assuming two will be bench warmers making the league minimum, you need 4 solid players to sign between the MLE & LLE. That's not very likely or realistic.

It also can offend the player when you say to them that we are going to go after another team's F/A & then we will come back to discuss a contract with you.


nice post. basically correct. one minor correction. the cavs cannot offer a deal of $8 mil the first year and $18 mil the next 4 years. raises are restricted by the CBA to 8% [or $640 k in this example] per year. that is to avoid the kind of tricks described.

:)
He doesn't understand the salary cap. I tried to explain these things to him already.

IndyFan
09-02-2008, 07:05 PM
I'm not sure if you understand the salary cap restrictions. Once you renounce a player you cannot re sign them for more than the MLE. You can't just renounce a player, go sign some big unrestricted F/A's & then re sign your renounced players back for unlimited sums of money.

don't think this is correct. once you renounce a player, you forfit his bird rights. if the team is under the cap [like the cavs in this example] they could sign a renounced player for 5 yrs at an 8% increase. or the MLE if they were over the cap.

:)

IndiansFan337
09-04-2008, 10:39 AM
don't think this is correct. once you renounce a player, you forfit his bird rights. if the team is under the cap [like the cavs in this example] they could sign a renounced player for 5 yrs at an 8% increase. or the MLE if they were over the cap.

:)

Yes, you are right.

But he's talking about spending all of our cap space to retain LeBron & then Superstar B.

We then wouldn't any longer be under the cap.

Sorry I didn't mention that before, I thought it was assumed.

IndyFan
09-04-2008, 06:30 PM
Yes, you are right.

But he's talking about spending all of our cap space to retain LeBron & then Superstar B.

We then wouldn't any longer be under the cap.

Sorry I didn't mention that before, I thought it was assumed.

sorry about :horse:, but in that case there is no MLE. if you start the summer far enough under the cap, you don't need/get and MLE or BiAE. you just get the cap money you have. and in this case it is beaucoup.

:)

IndiansFan337
09-05-2008, 07:21 AM
sorry about :horse:, but in that case there is no MLE. if you start the summer far enough under the cap, you don't need/get and MLE or BiAE. you just get the cap money you have. and in this case it is beaucoup.

:)

Therefore we cannot sign any solid rotation player if we plug $28-30 million up in LeBron + Superstar B & only have four others already signed.