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View Full Version : Would it be smart to trade clay for a Catcher and sign Sabbathia



papipapsmanny
08-21-2008, 01:05 AM
I was thinking, about this and not only because clay is struggling, but because he could be good trade bait. Say we trade him for a guy like clement or salty and sign sabbathia

negatives:
We lose clay buchholz

Positives:
Catcher of the Future
We make room to sign Sabbathia
We make sure we sign Sabbathia and he doesnt go to the yanks

Sabbathia
Beckett
Matsuzaka
Lester
Wakefield/Bowden/Masterson:drool::drool:

it seems it would improve our lineup, we just make 1 big signing then add an arm to the pen then done with moves until the offseason

it seems like every aspect of the team would improve

papipapsmanny
08-21-2008, 01:06 AM
**** of course can a mod please change the title "would it be SMART" not start

**** me thats bull

DaaBoTownSox
08-21-2008, 01:39 AM
I think Clay is bound to be traded sooner or later, but no matter what we get in return, we won't be getting C.C.

-Lavigne43-
08-21-2008, 01:54 AM
Your not going to get a good young catcher for Clay, especially with his value at a low right now. The guy has a ton of potential no reason to give up on him because of a bad year. Not all pitchers bust out of the gates like Lincecum or Joba. The sox won't give up on him like they did not give up on Pedroia, Lester, and Lowrie

papipapsmanny
08-21-2008, 03:43 AM
i never gave up on him, nor am i now i was just wondering if people felt that if clay netted us a good young catcher would it be smart for us to trade him and sign sabbathia or sheets

I would have kept clay in the majors i am all for watching young pitchers struggle in the majors it the key part of development

I was one of a very few in this forum that supported lester

i know for clay it isnt about stuff, its about 2 things 1st is control is shaky, 2nd batters are picking up his sequences and guessing right against him, he needs to mix it up a bit more to keep hitters of balanced

regardless if we could get salty, clement or some other good catcher for him i would do it and attempt to sign CC

although i believe CC is overrated he is still good to have

SportsFan17
08-21-2008, 06:09 AM
Salty has been less than impressive this season..

DaaBoTownSox
08-21-2008, 06:22 AM
i never gave up on him, nor am i now i was just wondering if people felt that if clay netted us a good young catcher would it be smart for us to trade him and sign sabbathia or sheets

I would have kept clay in the majors i am all for watching young pitchers struggle in the majors it the key part of development

I was one of a very few in this forum that supported lester

i know for clay it isnt about stuff, its about 2 things 1st is control is shaky, 2nd batters are picking up his sequences and guessing right against him, he needs to mix it up a bit more to keep hitters of balanced

regardless if we could get salty, clement or some other good catcher for him i would do it and attempt to sign CC

although i believe CC is overrated he is still good to have

I think going 2-9 in 15 starts was enough reason to send him down. I don't know how you could ever leave him up at the Pro level. Especially with his team fighting for a playoff berth, and him being one fo the main reasons for a 4.5 game deficit.

Now if they were the kansas city royals, then I could maybe see them keeping him up a bit longer.

sboyajian
08-21-2008, 06:42 AM
well put Lav..

Lester struggled after his cancer and most people wanted to trade him.

Pedroia hit like Hellen Keller for the first month of his rookie season and then he took home the bacon.

Ellsbury isn't hitting like he did to finish off the season, but he's showing amazing promise and flashes of brilliance.

Jed Lowrie is the ****ing man... (sorry.. just had to throw that one out there).

They'll keep him and work on him.. he needs to regain his confidence.

lil'papi
08-21-2008, 08:32 AM
His mental makeup is horrid. He looks scared, I mean you can actually see it scared.......
Never let'em see you sweat. He does that , makes me believe he is, at this point, a basket case. He needs to be in the minors and work through his lack of confidence.

He was going good then had two outs they got a hit he looked ok, shaken but ok, then another hit he came apart at the seams. Not good.

His trade value is still really high. I don't think trading him is the answer though , but for the right deal he certainly took himself off the untouchable list.

He could easily regain his trade value by doing well in AAA.

RedSoxtober
08-21-2008, 08:43 AM
Your not going to get a good young catcher for Clay, especially with his value at a low right now. The guy has a ton of potential no reason to give up on him because of a bad year. Not all pitchers bust out of the gates like Lincecum or Joba. The sox won't give up on him like they did not give up on Pedroia, Lester, and Lowrie

I disagree that you couldn't get a good young catcher for Clay. Good season or bad he's still got the stuff that had him ranked in BA's top 5. IMO a pitcher with that kind of potential certainly does get a catcher in return.

I agree that the Sox won't let him go. Hansen is a better analogy since he got several long stints in the minors -- Pedroia only struggled for a few weeks, Lester was inconsistent but could point to cancer, and Lowrie has never struggled.

Towelie
08-21-2008, 08:47 AM
We're not trading this guy he has ace type stuff if he can get it under control, he showed us what he can be last year with a no hitter, no hitters don't come from anyone who sucks. He's our ace of the future in reality. I can't wait until next year when everyone is "Oh, I love Clay, so much!! he's so wicked". so everyone just needs to shut it.

laxtonto
08-21-2008, 08:58 AM
We're not trading this guy he has ace type stuff if he can get it under control, he showed us what he can be last year with a no hitter, no hitters don't come from anyone who sucks. He's our ace of the future in reality. I can't wait until next year when everyone is "Oh, I love Clay, so much!! he's so wicked". so everyone just needs to shut it.

No hitters are as much a function of luck as anything else. Think about how many excellent defensive plays you see in no hitters

Bud Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bud_Smith) comes to mind...

For his career, Smith is 7-8 with a 4.95 earned run average in 132.7 innings. He has made 27 appearances with 24 starts, with one complete game shutout, which was a no hitter.

I personally wouldn't trade him, but the fact of the matter is that if he gets you something of value you need, it might be worth looking into. It takes something to get something.

futureheisman
08-21-2008, 09:24 AM
he gets rattled so easily i dont know if any team would take him. so you guys who didnt want to trade him for santana. It would have taken him coco and brandon moss. I wonder what you guys think.

Tragedy
08-21-2008, 10:04 AM
I see no reason for the Red Sox to attempt to trade Clay Buchholz.

The potential is absolutely there. We've seen how good his stuff can be when it's on. It's ace/number 2 stuff. He's still just a baby. It took Lester some time to develop into the pitcher he's become in 2008, and like sboy said, it's took Pedroia some time to get hot at the plate (And it seems like he hasn't stopped hitting since).

Clay will be a good pitcher in time. Right now, though, we need to leave him in the minors. Let him regain his composure and confidence. He'll be solid someday, just like Lester. It hasn't happened overnight like we hoped.

bagwell368
08-21-2008, 11:15 AM
Clay won't be traded now, he's near worthless. The earliest would be Jul 31 09, maybe in a Lugo out of town deal.

The Sox are very liable not to have a real answer at C until '10.

I would love CC, but trading Clay doesn't make room for him besides a roster/rotation spot - the real freight there would be the contract at least 27M a year and perhaps as much as 30M.

The only way to get us past being minor bidders for CC is for Becketts shoulder to be a mess, then we'll jump into a bidding war with the evil empire.

papipapsmanny
08-21-2008, 11:43 AM
is it really hard for people to understand a post

someone answer the question...if we can trade buchholz for a good young catcher and then sign sabbthia/Sheets would that be the smart move

When did i say he sucks, or he will never be good, and i am simply asking that what i asked above its not really complicated

gosawks
08-21-2008, 12:52 PM
I don't wanna get too much into if its smart or not, because thats all based on people's perspectives. So you can read into this whatever way you want, but I don't support trading Clay... I think if you read into most of the other messages people are saying they want to hold onto Clay... thus saying it wouldn't be a smart move to trade him. I guess that's how I've been reading into most of these posts.

If the Yankees sign Sabathia, then so be it. But we're the Red Sox... you know we'll at least be in the mix. I don't know if it's such a great idea to sign him just to keep him away from the Yankees... it's not quite a waiver deal where it's a lot easier to do so. But you know we can at least drive up the price for him if we want to... Really there will only be about 5-6 teams that will even be able to compete in the race for him anyway.

ThreeIfBaerga
08-21-2008, 01:08 PM
Trading Buchholz this offseason would be the ultimate in selling low. Kid's been rocked this season, and unless a team would be willing to value him as the Top 10 prospect in baseball he was at this time last year, trading him would just be foolish.

ddudeman0101
08-21-2008, 01:54 PM
I dont think that they should trade buchholz and I also thought he should have spent more time in the minors this year. The no-hitter was probably the worst thing for him it put too much expectations on him. He had only 4 starts under his belt before this year and he was expected to come out and be a 15 game winner this year and that is a lot to put on a 24 year old kid. If they trade him now I think everyone will look back on it and regret it.

americaspasttim
08-21-2008, 02:30 PM
In short, no I don't think it would be smart. Despite his troubles this year, he still is going to be a top pitcher. In addition, there is no guarantee that we would sign CC anyways. There are 29 other teams in the majors btw. We have a strong enough offense, there's no need to down-grade our weakness to improve on our strength...

futureheisman
08-21-2008, 02:52 PM
we will sign c.c but what we should be focused on is fixing the bullpen sign a guy juan cruz and will ohman

NESports2004
08-21-2008, 02:58 PM
Clay won't be traded now, he's near worthless. The earliest would be Jul 31 09, maybe in a Lugo out of town deal.

The Sox are very liable not to have a real answer at C until '10.

I would love CC, but trading Clay doesn't make room for him besides a roster/rotation spot - the real freight there would be the contract at least 27M a year and perhaps as much as 30M.

The only way to get us past being minor bidders for CC is for Becketts shoulder to be a mess, then we'll jump into a bidding war with the evil empire.

i couldnt disagree more, how can he not be worth anything hes sooooo young and has shown that he has the stuff, all he needs is confidence. One bad year does very very very little to his trade value.

NESports2004
08-21-2008, 03:00 PM
its def not smart to trade away our best prospect for a catcher ill deal with teks .200 BA if it means we get to keep our future ace. simple answer.

Osiagledknarf
08-22-2008, 01:34 AM
Clay won't be traded now, he's near worthless. The earliest would be Jul 31 09, maybe in a Lugo out of town deal.

The Sox are very liable not to have a real answer at C until '10.

I would love CC, but trading Clay doesn't make room for him besides a roster/rotation spot - the real freight there would be the contract at least 27M a year and perhaps as much as 30M.

The only way to get us past being minor bidders for CC is for Becketts shoulder to be a mess, then we'll jump into a bidding war with the evil empire.


Anyone who gives C.C. Sabathia 30 million a year deserves all the misery and breakdown they get for it. Is there some news out there on Beckett's shoulder I haven't heard yet? The news I heard is he's been sleeping on his arm the wrong way and so he's got this numbness thing going on in his fingers. His shoulder is fine. I think you're right on the catcher situation though.



is it really hard for people to understand a post

someone answer the question...if we can trade buchholz for a good young catcher and then sign sabbthia/Sheets would that be the smart move

When did i say he sucks, or he will never be good, and i am simply asking that what i asked above its not really complicated


Answer: No, it would be a terrible move (in my opinion, of course). Buchholz had a crappy year...okay, fine. Giving up on him this quickly is ridiculous, unless you're getting some absurdly amazing superstar back. Additionally, signing Sabathia to keep him away from the Yankees is a terrible reason to go after him...and our rotation is solid already. So going after Sabathia is a bad idea in its own right too.



we will sign c.c but what we should be focused on is fixing the bullpen sign a guy juan cruz and will ohman


I hope you are wrong about Sabathia...I'm not sure there is any reason to say that with so much conviction anyway. Juan Cruz and Will Ohman are...eh. Yes they're having good years. I think Juan Cruz would be an acceptable...even decent...move. Ohman...much less so.

RedSoxtober
08-22-2008, 08:37 AM
Anyone who gives C.C. Sabathia 30 million a year deserves all the misery and breakdown they get for it. Is there some news out there on Beckett's shoulder I haven't heard yet? The news I heard is he's been sleeping on his arm the wrong way and so he's got this numbness thing going on in his fingers. His shoulder is fine. I think you're right on the catcher situation though.

Answer: No, it would be a terrible move (in my opinion, of course). Buchholz had a crappy year...okay, fine. Giving up on him this quickly is ridiculous, unless you're getting some absurdly amazing superstar back. Additionally, signing Sabathia to keep him away from the Yankees is a terrible reason to go after him...and our rotation is solid already. So going after Sabathia is a bad idea in its own right too.

I hope you are wrong about Sabathia...I'm not sure there is any reason to say that with so much conviction anyway. Juan Cruz and Will Ohman are...eh. Yes they're having good years. I think Juan Cruz would be an acceptable...even decent...move. Ohman...much less so.

Damnit. That's almost everything I was going to say, even quoting the same posts. Hope you're as smart as me when you finish your masters, too. :p

Fribbles
08-22-2008, 10:23 AM
I'm kinda for trading Buchholz (yes I think it would be a smart move) If you all remember this offseason clay was almost dealt in a blockbuster that would've given us Johan (but we prolly would've lost jacoby, coco and/or Lester) so the red sox seem to not have a problem with mentioning clay in trade rumors. Varitek is the BEST defesnsive catcher in MLB today, hands down. He is the only catcher to catch 4 no hitters (Nomo,Lowe,Lester,Clay) I am going to certainly miss him when he does leave Boston (hopefully to retire) so yes I am for trading Clay if it means I get someone close to Varitek's defensive skills and pitch calling skills and if i can replace clay with CC or Ben Sheets or even a #3 starter im ok with it cuz its easier to replace and train (for lack of a better word) another pitcher than it would be to train another catcher to make him a Varitek type of catcher (one who knows how to call a game) We have a ton of pitchers who can start in his place if need be who many people have named already. I say...bye bye clay

RedSoxtober
08-22-2008, 02:55 PM
^^^ The Sox cannot control whether or not Buchholz' name comes up in rumors. That's natural given his potential. Regardless, if you go back and look at the reports from the winter carefully you'll see that the Twins were told that Buchholz was the only untouchable. Lester and Ellsbury were available in the right trade but Clay was not.

lil'papi
08-23-2008, 09:07 AM
IF, we can't get a top catcher prospect back a can't miss type , then we must let this kid work through his mental failings.
Take off the jewelry his ball would move another 6 inches. Tell him he can wear it again when he throws another no-no.

I like his stuff hate his makeup. Hate his mechanics. I am not a naysayer either his stuff is worth looking deeper at. I am not saying he will get injured more he won't command like he would need to at this level.

His makeup was questioned before the draft also.

He isn't LESTER either too very , very different sets of circumstances.

I don't have my masters degree either , but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night!

Osiagledknarf
08-23-2008, 09:59 AM
Damnit. That's almost everything I was going to say, even quoting the same posts. Hope you're as smart as me when you finish your masters, too. :p

Haha...me too man. I will say though...arguing about baseball is alot more fun than writing papers on economic structural adjustmant in developing countries! Haha!

Osiagledknarf
08-23-2008, 10:20 AM
Also...I should spell adjustment correctly.

Raidaz4Life
08-23-2008, 10:58 AM
not unless we get something else... I have not completely jumped off the Clay bandwagon, he has shown he has the stuff and he's still young. Generally you don't trade a young pitching prospect for a catcher.

We will be shooting ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be another Lester and all we got in return was a catcher