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DenButsu
08-16-2008, 11:15 PM
Anyone watch?

I thought both candidates probably considered themselves as having a successful outing there - and they're probably both right. The crowd was definitely more favorable to the conservative viewpoints, but I thought Obama (as he has always done, really) did a great job of answering questions on abortion and stem cell research in respectful and honest ways that (surprisingly) seemed pretty well received given the makeup of the crowd.

Granted, I'm biased, but it did seem to me that McCain was looking for any possible openings to just reiterate stump speech talking points ("I'll follow him to the gates of hell!"/"drill now!") that had little to do with the actual questions asked, while Obama was giving a little more thought to actually directly answering the questions put to him. It seemed to me that for nearly every other question that McCain got, his answer amounted essentially to "I was a POW". It's an amazing sacrifice he made for his country, and I'd never question that, but the way in which he's milking that experience for all it's worth makes me wonder if he won't reach a point of diminishing returns on it and/or cheapen its value (as perceived by voters) through endless repetition.

Cadarn
08-17-2008, 12:08 AM
"answering that question with specificity … is above my pay grade"
what a buffoon

b1e9a8r5s
08-17-2008, 04:38 AM
Ok, first, a disclaimer. I only saw the first 15 mins or so of Obama and then saw the McCain portion on replay. Also, I am a McCain supporter.

I was impressed with how McCain handled himself. I'm well aware of Obama's ability to convey a message and in turn make McCain look less than smooth when he speaks. I was quite impressed with how McCain handled himself, and didn't seem to stumble. I'm not referring to issues at all, just in the general way he came off.

Just my reaction, which was, impressed as a McCain supporter.

spartanbear
08-17-2008, 05:08 AM
Not a McCain supporter but ummm yeah BHO got handled. I believe Barack did a good job at being thoughtful and reflective (qualities that I personally value) but that ain't what people wanna hear. Although it was a "Faith Forum" (whatever that means) it was still a politcal event, another opportunity for him to connect with people and help them understand what he's all about and I don't think he was able to do that.

b1e9a8r5s
08-17-2008, 05:51 AM
Same disclaimers as before, but I'm now watching the CNN commentary on the forum.

It seems to me that the general consensus is that McCain handled himself "well" and even "won" the night, if there is such a thing. It should also be said that a few of the commentators said that the bar was set low for McCain based on his prior speaking engagements or his "problems" with expressing himself.

redsox12
08-17-2008, 10:02 AM
I watched back and forth the Jets game and the forum and alot are saying McCain won.

DenButsu
08-17-2008, 11:41 AM
"answering that question with specificity is above my pay grade"
what a buffoon

Yeah, how dare a presidential candidate NOT pretend to claim to be GOD and have the cosmological knowledge of "when life begins"...

Mr swag
08-17-2008, 07:51 PM
I watched back and forth the Jets game and the forum and alot are saying McCain won.

lol they can not be a winner or loser

it wasnt about issues it was about faith

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 12:29 AM
lol they can not be a winner or loser

it wasnt about issues it was about faith

It's politics, there is always a winner and a loser. McCain came off better and therefore "won" the night.

BG7
08-18-2008, 01:02 AM
I think McCain based on performance, Obama won on content. Sadly, content is so undervalued by Americans these days.

McCain continued his horrific anti-Russia, pro-Georgia initiative. The gates of hell thing with Bin Laden was completely dumb. And then he had a lot of things, such as the abortion issue, where he just through out evangelical rhetoric.

I think the moderator did a pretty good job, for what this forum was, although he was a little friendlier towards McCain. I

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 02:00 AM
I think McCain based on performance, Obama won on content. Sadly, content is so undervalued by Americans these days.

McCain continued his horrific anti-Russia, pro-Georgia initiative. The gates of hell thing with Bin Laden was completely dumb. And then he had a lot of things, such as the abortion issue, where he just through out evangelical rhetoric.

I think the moderator did a pretty good job, for what this forum was, although he was a little friendlier towards McCain. I

I don't think you can say one won on content. I mean that's based on individual opinions. If I'm pro-life, I'm going to think McCain wins on the abortion issue, while a pro choice person would say that Obama won. I don't think you can calculate that. It's an individual self fulfilling prophecy. You support Obama for whatever the issues that are important to you and therefore when he talks about those issues he will always win (in your mind) on content, and likewise for me McCain.

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 02:12 AM
Apparently the Obama camp agreed that McCain did a good job, so much so that they are questioning weather McCain was able to hear the questions when Obama was getting them. This was brought up on meet the press and has lead to the McCain camp protesting NBC's coverage of the campaign.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12594.html

DenButsu
08-18-2008, 02:43 AM
I agree with the post 2 up (#11), and also think that the audience and mediator did create a favorable environent for McCain because the crowd was bound to be much more enthusiastic about his responses since it was pretty much a conservative congregation.

And yeah, I read that the mediator (can't remember his name now) later acknowledged that although he'd said McCain was in a "cone of silence" backstage, McCain actually left his hotel around the time Obama's questions started and was in his limo for about 30 minutes before arriving at the venue. The McCain camp has said he didn't listen to the questions while in the car, and the mediator said he takes him at his word on that. So whether he actually turned on the television or not is something that can only be speculated on. The Obama camp said they didn't intend to pursue that, that as far as they know both candidates got the same information.

Mr swag
08-18-2008, 09:40 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/18/nyt-backs-up-nbc-mccain-w_n_119476.html

mccain got the questions before hand

lol that dirty old man using the same low road politcs

LeoGetz
08-18-2008, 10:45 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/18/nyt-backs-up-nbc-mccain-w_n_119476.html

mccain got the questions before hand

lol that dirty old man using the same low road politcs

There is no proof that McCain was listening to the questions while in the motorcade. This would be a non issue, but the good Pastor had to make a joke about the cone of silence.

DenButsu
08-18-2008, 10:52 AM
There is no proof that McCain was listening to the questions while in the motorcade. This would be a non issue, but the good Pastor had to make a joke about the cone of silence.

Why should this be a non issue? I do agree that the claims aren't (and probably can't be) substantiated that McCain could have tuned in from the limo. But the real issue is that we viewers were given the distinct impression that for the entire time that Obama was taking questions, McCain was in a room backstage where he had no way of hearing what was going on. So it seems those were the terms both parties agreed to - and that by taking his time to mosey on over there, McCain did not in fact abide by those terms, and by doing so created a window of time in which he at least had the opportunity to get information about what questions he would be asked. I wouldn't consider that a "non issue" in the least.

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 11:32 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/18/nyt-backs-up-nbc-mccain-w_n_119476.html

mccain got the questions before hand

lol that dirty old man using the same low road politcs

All that article says is that he was in the limo when it started which doesn't mean he got the questions. The article doesn't say that, and you will never be able to prove it one way or the other (unfortunately). I love how it's being portrayed by you that McCain cheated. If the situation would have been reversed and the McCain camp accused Obama of this, you'd still be using the "same low road politics" line on McCain.

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 11:41 AM
I agree with the post 2 up (#11), and also think that the audience and mediator did create a favorable environent for McCain because the crowd was bound to be much more enthusiastic about his responses since it was pretty much a conservative congregation.

And yeah, I read that the mediator (can't remember his name now) later acknowledged that although he'd said McCain was in a "cone of silence" backstage, McCain actually left his hotel around the time Obama's questions started and was in his limo for about 30 minutes before arriving at the venue. The McCain camp has said he didn't listen to the questions while in the car, and the mediator said he takes him at his word on that. So whether he actually turned on the television or not is something that can only be speculated on. The Obama camp said they didn't intend to pursue that, that as far as they know both candidates got the same information.

I thought Rick Warren did a really good job as the moderator. I didn't think he was bias and thought it was pretty cool how he asked, almost word for word, the exact same questions. I think the audience, being evangelical or christian, was clearly going to favor McCain to some extent, and that played out. McCain basically had a home court advantage. McCain had the "right" (no punn intended) answers in their minds regarding abortion and gay marriage which tend to be important issues in the Christian community.

redsox12
08-18-2008, 11:49 AM
lol they can not be a winner or loser

it wasnt about issues it was about faith

Of course there can be a winner. One of the biggest questions about Obama is can he lead and these forums show what he's got and he has to preform well. Of course this wasn't a debate but as of right now round 1 goes to McCain.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_119476.html

mccain got the questions before hand

lol that dirty old man using the same low road politcs
Reply With Quote

I've already once pointed out the liberalism of the Huffington Post. Would you expect them to say anything less.

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 01:25 PM
Yeah, how dare a presidential candidate NOT pretend to claim to be GOD and have the cosmological knowledge of "when life begins"...

Well, I would expect someone who is pro-choice to say that life begins at birth, right? Pro-choicers aren't going to tell you they are killing live babies, they are terminating fetus', so in that respect, I thought it was somewhat of a cop out.

sboyajian
08-18-2008, 02:25 PM
so much for seperation of church and state.. now we're having Faith Based Interviews and Discussion Forums?

DenButsu
08-18-2008, 09:32 PM
Well, I would expect someone who is pro-choice to say that life begins at birth, right?

Why would you assume that the question can be boiled down to such a simple black/white, yes/no duality? Moral dilemmas regarding choices about who lives and who dies are ALWAYS complicated.

Case in point: The vast majority of pro-lifers support execution. (Proving the whole "pro-life" moniker false, btw, but that's a different discussion). Furthermore, nearly all of them have a religious (and usually Christian) moral basis for holding their anti-abortion beliefs. In a nutshell, "Thou shalt not kill". Yet, clearly, their moral ambiguity is just as great as any pro-choicer who opposes the death penalty. They're still wresting the power that their own God reserved for himself ("Judgment is mine") from out of his hands and claiming that they should be able to kill convicted criminals. And most pro-lifers also support war in many circumstances, which not only claims lives but claims innocent lives. So for either side to claim exclusive holding rights to the moral high ground when it comes to these decisions is pretty much bull****. It's just that one side does it a little more than the other. :cool:


Right now, pro-life groups are trying to make the most of the "pay scale" quote by endlessly repeating that one sentence. And that's no surprise - that's just politics. But if you look at what Obama actually said (and this is only some of it), he actually gave a thoughtful answer which a) was respectful to those who disagree, b) acknowledged (unlike McCain) that there is more than one side to the issue, and c) proposed to (unlike Bush or McCain) actually DO SOMETHING as president to reduce the number of abortions taking place:


"For me, the goal right now should be, and this is where I think we can find common ground - and by the way I've now inserted this into the Democratic Party platform - is how do we reduce the number of abortions? Because the fact is that although we've had a president who is opposed to abortion over the last eight years, abortions have not gone down. And that I think is something that we have to ask ourselves...

I am in favor, for example, of limits on late term abortions if there is an exception for the mother's health. Now, from the perspective of those who are pro-life, I think they would consider that inadequate. And I respect their views. I mean, one of the things I've always said is that on this particular issue, if you believe that life begins at conception, and you are consistent in that belief, then I can't argue with you on that. Because that is a core issue of faith for you. What I can do is say, 'Are there ways that we can work together to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies so that we actually are reducing the sense that women are seeking out abortions?'"

b1e9a8r5s
08-18-2008, 09:42 PM
Alright, you got me, I over simplified a complex issue.

One thing I will say is that Obama SAYS he's for limits on late abortions but his record doesn't prove that out.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTBkYTYzZDNjNDgyMWJmMzMxYzljYjYxNmEwMTdhYWE=

RogerRomo
08-18-2008, 09:47 PM
Why would you assume that the question can be boiled down to such a simple black/white, yes/no duality? Moral dilemmas regarding choices about who lives and who dies are ALWAYS complicated.

Case in point: The vast majority of pro-lifers support execution. (Proving the whole "pro-life" moniker false, btw, but that's a different discussion). Furthermore, nearly all of them have a religious (and usually Christian) moral basis for holding their anti-abortion beliefs. In a nutshell, "Thou shalt not kill". Yet, clearly, their moral ambiguity is just as great as any pro-choicer who opposes the death penalty. They're still wresting the power that their own God reserved for himself ("Judgment is mine") from out of his hands and claiming that they should be able to kill convicted criminals. And most pro-lifers also support war in many circumstances, which not only claims lives but claims innocent lives. So for either side to claim exclusive holding rights to the moral high ground when it comes to these decisions is pretty much bull****. It's just that one side does it a little more than the other. :cool:


Right now, pro-life groups are trying to make the most of the "pay scale" quote by endlessly repeating that one sentence. And that's no surprise - that's just politics. But if you look at what Obama actually said (and this is only some of it), he actually gave a thoughtful answer which a) was respectful to those who disagree, b) acknowledged (unlike McCain) that there is more than one side to the issue, and c) proposed to (unlike Bush or McCain) actually DO SOMETHING as president to reduce the number of abortions taking place:

Gotta watch out for those babies packin heat and raping people. Geez. Thank god you opened my eyes. So how did you survive your abortion? Did your mother ask you then spare you?

Raidaz4Life
08-18-2008, 10:08 PM
Why would you assume that the question can be boiled down to such a simple black/white, yes/no duality? Moral dilemmas regarding choices about who lives and who dies are ALWAYS complicated.

Case in point: The vast majority of pro-lifers support execution. (Proving the whole "pro-life" moniker false, btw, but that's a different discussion). Furthermore, nearly all of them have a religious (and usually Christian) moral basis for holding their anti-abortion beliefs. In a nutshell, "Thou shalt not kill". Yet, clearly, their moral ambiguity is just as great as any pro-choicer who opposes the death penalty. They're still wresting the power that their own God reserved for himself ("Judgment is mine") from out of his hands and claiming that they should be able to kill convicted criminals. And most pro-lifers also support war in many circumstances, which not only claims lives but claims innocent lives. So for either side to claim exclusive holding rights to the moral high ground when it comes to these decisions is pretty much bull****. It's just that one side does it a little more than the other. :cool:


Right now, pro-life groups are trying to make the most of the "pay scale" quote by endlessly repeating that one sentence. And that's no surprise - that's just politics. But if you look at what Obama actually said (and this is only some of it), he actually gave a thoughtful answer which a) was respectful to those who disagree, b) acknowledged (unlike McCain) that there is more than one side to the issue, and c) proposed to (unlike Bush or McCain) actually DO SOMETHING as president to reduce the number of abortions taking place:

Well he can claim he wants to lower abortions but the only way to significantly lower abortions are to eliminate it or put some sort of consequence on it which we both know will never happen. I mean if people continue to have a get out of jail free card what is to stop them from committing crimes. Or in this case if there are no consequences for pre-marital sex than what is to stop people from going out and looking for it.

I will concede to you that the title of pro-life is very deceiving because I for one do not support protecting life under all circumstances.... I am more pro choice by label in the sense that i feel every individual has a choice of what they want to do with their OWN life and obviously infants are not getting that choice. But on the flip side if a criminal has made up in his mind that life is so meaningless that he may take the life of another person unprovoked, then I believe he has forfeited his own life. But Den we will have to agree to disagree but technically if I think about it I am more pro choice than pro life.

DenButsu
08-18-2008, 10:37 PM
Gotta watch out for those babies packin heat and raping people. Geez. Thank god you opened my eyes. So how did you survive your abortion? Did your mother ask you then spare you?

See that thing that just went zooming by over your head? No? You missed it?

Too bad. That was my point.

DreamShaker
08-20-2008, 12:31 PM
Yeah, how dare a presidential candidate NOT pretend to claim to be GOD and have the cosmological knowledge of "when life begins"...

Now I have been out of the loop on everything the past month as ive been out of town doing numerous things that have allowed me no access to computers or TV....so help me out on this Den....what exactly was the context of the "Above my pay raise" comment?? Was he talking about a newborn babies right to live?? Like....an already out-of-the-womb baby??? That is what I was told but the way you responded gives me the impression it was something different....

b1e9a8r5s
08-20-2008, 12:41 PM
Now I have been out of the loop on everything the past month as ive been out of town doing numerous things that have allowed me no access to computers or TV....so help me out on this Den....what exactly was the context of the "Above my pay raise" comment?? Was he talking about a newborn babies right to live?? Like....an already out-of-the-womb baby??? That is what I was told but the way you responded gives me the impression it was something different....

The question was asked when does life begin. Not a direct quote, but that was the jist of it. McCain said at conception, Obama gave the answer you saw.

DreamShaker
08-20-2008, 12:55 PM
The question was asked when does life begin. Not a direct quote, but that was the jist of it. McCain said at conception, Obama gave the answer you saw.

Gotcha....I keep hearing things Obama has been saying lately and am just dumbfounded....I don't really like Mc?Cain and woulda preffered a few other guys in the Republican Party to run.....but Obama is just....I dunno....did he really say the solution to our energy crisis is to air up our tires more???

arkanian215
08-20-2008, 01:37 PM
maybe obamas talking points were answering questions about stem cell research and abortion.

sboyajian
08-20-2008, 02:50 PM
Gotcha....I keep hearing things Obama has been saying lately and am just dumbfounded....I don't really like Mc?Cain and woulda preffered a few other guys in the Republican Party to run.....but Obama is just....I dunno....did he really say the solution to our energy crisis is to air up our tires more???

Part of what he said to solve the crisis was this.. but not the whole thing.

Many cars are underinflated and are losing about 2 - 3 mpg due to it. Over the course of a year times how many cars are underinflated.. we'd save millions of gallons a year..

It wouldn't solve it.. but it would be a starting point that doesn't cost us anything to solve.

DenButsu
08-20-2008, 10:51 PM
did he really say the solution to our energy crisis is to air up our tires more???

No, of course not.

Sorry to break the news to you, DS, but you've just been suckered by the right wing misinformation machine.

Here's a hint:

THEY LIE ABOUT OBAMA. ALL THE TIME.

The very fact that you believe that nonsense - and you're a smart, well-educated guy - chalk one victory up for their deliberate propagation of ignorance and deceit.


How do you feel, being lied to like that, btw?

DenButsu
08-20-2008, 10:59 PM
Now I have been out of the loop on everything the past month as ive been out of town doing numerous things that have allowed me no access to computers or TV....so help me out on this Den....what exactly was the context of the "Above my pay raise" comment?? Was he talking about a newborn babies right to live?? Like....an already out-of-the-womb baby??? That is what I was told but the way you responded gives me the impression it was something different....

As was pointed out before, the question was when does life begin, and that was Obama's answer. (Which, by the way, should really be seen in its entirety).

Right wing blogs have been whining and moaning about the "pay scale" comment because they say "nobody is above the president's pay scale". But really, that's just a red herring, because it's absolutely obvious that what Obama meant when he said that was...

I AM NOT GOD, SO I"M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.


McCain supporters like to argue that he's not really equal to Bush, but he looks a lot like him these days. When you don't know, give a simplistic answer with confidence.

What do you do about evil?

"Destroy it."

Okay, so WTF does that mean? Is that part of your policy? Is that on the Republican platform?

"And I, John McCain, in my first term as president, will destroy all evil."

Cool. Thanks, man. Looking forward to that world.

Raidaz4Life
08-20-2008, 11:35 PM
As was pointed out before, the question was when does life begin, and that was Obama's answer. (Which, by the way, should really be seen in its entirety).

Right wing blogs have been whining and moaning about the "pay scale" comment because they say "nobody is above the president's pay scale". But really, that's just a red herring, because it's absolutely obvious that what Obama meant when he said that was...

I AM NOT GOD, SO I"M NOT QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.


McCain supporters like to argue that he's not really equal to Bush, but he looks a lot like him these days. When you don't know, give a simplistic answer with confidence.

What do you do about evil?

"Destroy it."

Okay, so WTF does that mean? Is that part of your policy? Is that on the Republican platform?

"And I, John McCain, in my first term as president, will destroy all evil."

Cool. Thanks, man. Looking forward to that world.

you're right because obviously we need to reason with evil and negotiate with it. Maybe then Evil will be nice and leave everyone alone:D

DenButsu
08-20-2008, 11:51 PM
you're right because obviously we need to reason with evil and negotiate with it. Maybe then Evil will be nice and leave everyone alone:D

Oh, did he? Did Obama really say that? :eyebrow:

Lacking real issues, they resort to lies.

^That shoud be the singular message that Obama drums out for the rest of the campaign.

"John McCain is LYING TO YOU"

blenderboy5
08-21-2008, 12:00 AM
Why would you assume that the question can be boiled down to such a simple black/white, yes/no duality? Moral dilemmas regarding choices about who lives and who dies are ALWAYS complicated.

Case in point: The vast majority of pro-lifers support execution. (Proving the whole "pro-life" moniker false, btw, but that's a different discussion). Furthermore, nearly all of them have a religious (and usually Christian) moral basis for holding their anti-abortion beliefs. In a nutshell, "Thou shalt not kill". Yet, clearly, their moral ambiguity is just as great as any pro-choicer who opposes the death penalty.

Not exactly. A lot of people who oppose crushing the skulls of American infants (or, in Liberal, "allowing a woman to practice the right to choose") for religious reasons are also against the death penalty. And not just for the reason you mentioned ("thou shall not kill"). By executing a prisoner who has not confessed to his crimes and repented, you are sending him straight to Hell. For real. Because he has not found god (as cheesy as those "but i found god" 11th hour bull **** excuses are of course). In addition, there's the whole hate the sin not the sinner, loving and forgiving, etc.

Finally, Obama's answer was nuanced, yes. But it was an incredibly bad answer. If you (you generally, not a specific person but I suppose in this case Obama) support partial birth abortion, fine. I personally don't understand how you can support it, but whatever. That's your opinion. But maybe tone it down a bit? Don't run around voting to kill babies who survive botched abortions. Don't say banning partial birth abortion is unconstitutional (which it isn't; citing the 1st and 14th amendment as justification for brain mushing should be unconstitutional). Basically, most Americans hate partial birth abortion. While many eat up the whole rape, incest, inconvenience, lack of money excuses (and yes some are valid) as justification for abortion, people get squeamish when they hear how a partial birth abortion is performed. So my advice to Obama: stay away from abortion. In fact, from now on follow the rest of your party and stay away from God and moral issues. Go back to *****ing about Iraq and being wrong on the surge. At least people respect you for it.

DenButsu
08-21-2008, 12:20 AM
In fact, from now on follow the rest of your party and stay away from God and moral issues.

And there it is, folks:

The elitism of the Republican party.

The very false notion that only the right has legitimate claim to the domain of religion and morality.

Well, you know what? **** that! No you don't!

Just because they pompously believe that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their god, that doesn't endow them with ownership over jack squat. As a RATIONAL THINKER who is free FROM religion, I have just as much credibility in the moral and ethical spheres as anybody who believes in (imo) fairly tales that were written hundreds of years ago.


Compassionate conservatism: Opposing the death penatly because they don't wanna send those criminals to hell. "For real".

Awww, ain't that cute?


Perhaps if we could keep these debates focused on the REAL impacts of decisions in THIS world (and not some fantasy afterlife world) we could actually have a more rational, reasonable discussion about everything.

Raidaz4Life
08-21-2008, 12:34 AM
Oh, did he? Did Obama really say that? :eyebrow:

Lacking real issues, they resort to lies.

^That shoud be the singular message that Obama drums out for the rest of the campaign.

"John McCain is LYING TO YOU"

uhhh yeah did you not hear his theory about dealing with Iran?

papipapsmanny
08-21-2008, 01:20 AM
aww the good old moral and religious issue that have no bearing on the quality of life i have, yet people like to make them the biggest issue

Homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment?????????

everyone will have different beliefs no reason to force it upon everyone else

regardless these issue have no bearing on the economy, military, or quality of your life. This is why our country is going downhill, the president isnt a shrink or religious leader, he is a commander and chief i want him to build a strong economy, a mighty military, and whatever it take to get more money in my wallet, and i want him to let me have the abilty to choose what i think is morally right and wrong and share my opinions with others, not force them upon anyone

DenButsu
08-21-2008, 01:26 AM
uhhh yeah did you not hear his theory about dealing with Iran?

So, you're saying that your interpretation of "Destroy evil" is "bomb, bomb Iran".

b1e9a8r5s
08-21-2008, 01:47 AM
aww the good old moral and religious issue that have no bearing on the quality of life i have, yet people like to make them the biggest issue

Homosexuality, abortion, capital punishment?????????

everyone will have different beliefs no reason to force it upon everyone else

regardless these issue have no bearing on the economy, military, or quality of your life. This is why our country is going downhill, the president isnt a shrink or religious leader, he is a commander and chief i want him to build a strong economy, a mighty military, and whatever it take to get more money in my wallet, and i want him to let me have the abilty to choose what i think is morally right and wrong and share my opinions with others, not force them upon anyone

The issues of homosexuality, abortion and capital punishment have an effect on our society, no matter which side of the issue your on, and therefore do effect all of our lives. If you want to say that banning gay marriage promotes hate and intolerance, well thats effecting how our society operates does it not? Or allowing abortions would lead to increased crime rates or more drug problems or over populating. Whatever it is, it is an issue. I understand that people get touchy when they are told what to do in moral terms, but these are legal issues even when you take the morality out of them.

blenderboy5
08-21-2008, 01:56 AM
And there it is, folks:

The elitism of the Republican party.

The very false notion that only the right has legitimate claim to the domain of religion and morality.

Well, you know what? **** that! No you don't!


Are you going to sit here and defend the morality of partial birth abortions? If Obama supports drilling in a child's skull over drilling in Alaska, maybe he should stick to talking about the economy and Iraq. What's crazy about that.



Just because they pompously believe that I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their god, that doesn't endow them with ownership over jack squat. As a RATIONAL THINKER who is free FROM religion, I have just as much credibility in the moral and ethical spheres as anybody who believes in (imo) fairly tales that were written hundreds of years ago.


Maybe you could not trivialize and mock the believes of Christianity for a moment? Thanks. Especially when you demonstrated a hilarious knee jerk reaction to any mention of a higher being.



Compassionate conservatism: Opposing the death penatly because they don't wanna send those criminals to hell. "For real".


There are many Christians who oppose the death penalty. And there are a large number of those christianswho oppose executing criminals who haven't repented because they are dying with sin.

Is it really hard to understand? Posters on here will defend Islam until they're blue in the face every time a raped woman is punished for having sex but you can't at least pretend to understand christianity?



Perhaps if we could keep these debates focused on the REAL impacts of decisions in THIS world (and not some fantasy afterlife world) we could actually have a more rational, reasonable discussion about everything.

Delivering babies and then killing them does have an impact on this world. Not as important as, say, posting porn on the virgin mary or covering christian symbols in elephant **** mind you. But pretty important.