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Mile High Champ
08-15-2008, 09:32 AM
This will be a series of polls to get a true top 10 list at each spot.

I completed a list of top PG's by votes, Lets head over to the SG's. In our latest poll, Brandon Roy was the winner, This will be the last poll for the SG spot, we have some very good players left, so make your vote count.

There are a lot of players to be picked from, Please pick the best player. some of the guys on the list could play SF but many have played mostly SG over the last few years..

I removed Barbosa and Gordon as they recieved only 1 and 2 votes last round. A lot of good players left on this list.There are a lot of good SG's out there.


1) Kobe Bryant
2) Dwayne Wade
3) Tracy McGrady
4) Allen Iverson
5) Manu Ginobili
5) Vince Carter
7) Joe Johnson
8) Ray Allen
9) Brandon Roy
10) Kevin Martin

Don't Forget to vote and make comments!

Beno7500
08-15-2008, 09:45 AM
Kevin Martin,

Iggy is a SF

phlp_bj
08-15-2008, 09:46 AM
this has to be redd. he was supposed to go before idk what happened. hes a proven scorer and an even better 3 point shooter. has made team usa as well. my vote goes to redd.

mosdef17
08-15-2008, 09:52 AM
I can't believe Vince is that high. I'd take Ray Allen and Joe Johnson over him any day. If this is a current thing then Vince is on the decline...

Dwayne Wade spells it "Dwyane" too by the way

MoJay
08-15-2008, 10:07 AM
Redd same argument for #9 better than K. Martin

RapsFan4Life
08-15-2008, 10:11 AM
this is definetly REDD's number .. number 10 ... lets do it mike!

Lakerfrk
08-15-2008, 10:21 AM
no no no,..... i like Redd as much as the next guy.. but I'm going with a champion... RICHARD HAMILTON!

JordansBulls
08-15-2008, 10:21 AM
Redd

RapsFan4Life
08-15-2008, 10:32 AM
no no no,..... i like Redd as much as the next guy.. but I'm going with a champion... RICHARD HAMILTON!

now dont get me wrong im not taking anything from rip, but im just saying its really nice to have a guard like chancey to back you up .. redd on the other hand has little help in creating his own shot and he can get doubled since mo will isnt a great 3 point shooter like bu-bu-bu-billups!

MiamiHeat
08-15-2008, 10:35 AM
I can't believe Vince is that high. I'd take Ray Allen and Joe Johnson over him any day. If this is a current thing then Vince is on the decline...

Dwayne Wade spells it "Dwyane" too by the way

+1 you gotta respect the top 2 SG :up:

SwaggaIke
08-15-2008, 11:21 AM
Come on now. Its Rip's time.

charlsdq7
08-15-2008, 11:30 AM
Iggy aint no SF he played da position last yr out of necessity, AI2

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
08-15-2008, 11:41 AM
I can't believe Vince is that high. I'd take Ray Allen and Joe Johnson over him any day. If this is a current thing then Vince is on the decline...

Dwayne Wade spells it "Dwyane" too by the way

Uhmm Vince should by # 4.. hes proven to be better than tmac as well...Tmac doesnt produce nearly as much.. and doesnt even play as much.. heck he doesnt even win as much...
..and please dont even compare Ray allen to anyone on that list.. ray allen is like not even in the top 10 no more.... Talkin about vince carter on the decline? ARE u crazy Ray allen is ont eh biggest decline ever... Carter is still producing.. allen had the worst year of his career least season.. he didn't even average 20 last year.. hes not dynamic at all anymore.. relies to much on his shot..... same thing with ginobli he shouldnt even be on the top 10.. hes not nearly dynamic enough as htose other players.... he has never averaged more than 20 in his damn career.. The guys is a third option and plays with Tim Duncan and parker.. who take a lot of attention off of him... Not to mention the dude travels every time he drives into the paint.. ANd ur complaing about Vince>? hes up there trust... 1 of only 3 to dscore 20 ppg, 6 reb, and 5ast... along with lebron, and kobe.. the two best in the game.. so how is he not top 5? He was hurt when he did that too.... You guys don't watch him play and judge himon stupid things u hear on TNT....

Eveyrone talks aobut how carter is old.. and is on the decline... wtf??? Ray allen is ten times more donee. he cant do anyhting but shoot no more.. and he gets tourched when playing defense... joe johnson made a fool out of him in the playoffs
SO yea ray allen shouldnt be up there but w/e....

I thought that rip hamilton, iggy, and micheal redd should have all made the top ten over Roy, allen, and manu..... Those guys are so muhc better... Roy is a nice player but hes not as good as the others mentioned....

Now since roy, allen, and manu are in the tip 10 ... only 1 player out of rip , iggy, and redd will make it... which sucks big time...
1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) Carter
5) Tmac
6) joe Johnson
7) Iggy
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) jay rich? ROy.. not sure which one

But all of those guys are way better "basketball palyers" than allen & ginobli
they do so much more on the court.. people like to crown those two overated players just becaue they have rings on their fingers...> Trust me iF all of those players from 3-10 ever played with the likes of TIm duncan, Tony Parker, Kevein garnett, Paul Pierce... they would have rings on their fingers as well...

crewzmega
08-15-2008, 11:43 AM
there is no way i would put mcgrady over allen i wtf?

Dirty Dirk41
08-15-2008, 11:45 AM
IGGY IS NOT A SF!!!!!! he played that position last season becuz he had to... he will play the 2 all yea this year....Michael Redd in on team USA..He is much better than martin...Redd better win this

Dirty Dirk41
08-15-2008, 11:49 AM
Uhmm Vince should by # 4.. hes proven to be better than tmac as well...Tmac doesnt produce nearly as much.. and doesnt even play as much.. heck he doesnt even win as much...
..and please dont even compare Ray allen to anyone on that list.. ray allen is like not even in the top 10 no more.... Talkin about vince carter on the decline? ARE u crazy Ray allen is ont eh biggest decline ever... Carter is still producing.. allen had the worst year of his career least season.. he didn't even average 20 last year.. hes not dynamic at all anymore.. relies to much on his shot..... same thing with ginobli he shouldnt even be on the top 10.. hes not nearly dynamic enough as htose other players.... he has never averaged more than 20 in his damn career.. The guys is a third option and plays with Tim Duncan and parker.. who take a lot of attention off of him... Not to mention the dude travels every time he drives into the paint.. ANd ur complaing about Vince>? hes up there trust... 1 of only 3 to dscore 20 ppg, 6 reb, and 5ast... along with lebron, and kobe.. the two best in the game.. so how is he not top 5? He was hurt when he did that too.... You guys don't watch him play and judge himon stupid things u hear on TNT....

Eveyrone talks aobut how carter is old.. and is on the decline... wtf??? Ray allen is ten times more donee. he cant do anyhting but shoot no more.. and he gets tourched when playing defense... joe johnson made a fool out of him in the playoffs
SO yea ray allen shouldnt be up there but w/e....

I thought that rip hamilton, iggy, and micheal redd should have all made the top ten over Roy, allen, and manu..... Those guys are so muhc better... Roy is a nice player but hes not as good as the others mentioned....

Now since roy, allen, and manu are in the tip 10 ... only 1 player out of rip , iggy, and redd will make it... which sucks big time...
1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) Carter
5) Tmac
6) joe Johnson
7) Iggy
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) jay rich? ROy.. not sure which one

But all of those guys are way better "basketball palyers" than allen & ginobli
they do so much more on the court.. people like to crown those two overated players just becaue they have rings on their fingers...> Trust me iF all of those players from 3-10 ever played with the likes of TIm duncan, Tony Parker, Kevein garnett, Paul Pierce... they would have rings on their fingers as well...

u have this sickening man crush on Vince Carter.. when he first joined the league he was a FORCE....now hes broken down and really isnt his former self. Ray Allen although slumped a bit in the playoffs played like a beast in the finals. And before he came to Boston 2 be THE THIRD OPTION was putting up all-star numbers constantly.


1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac
5) Ray Allen
6) joe Johnson
7) Vince Carter
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) manu

Thats my list and im sticking to it.

daleja424
08-15-2008, 11:50 AM
this has to be redd here...

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
08-15-2008, 11:57 AM
u have this sickening man crush on Vince Carter.. when he first joined the league he was a FORCE....now hes broken down and really isnt his former self. Ray Allen although slumped a bit in the playoffs played like a beast in the finals. And before he came to Boston 2 be THE THIRD OPTION was putting up all-star numbers constantly.


1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac
5) Ray Allen
6) joe Johnson
7) Vince Carter
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) manu

Thats my list and im sticking to it.


haha u say i have a sickening man crush on vince? Lol dude im gonna say the same thinkg about you and ray allen Lol.. I think u got a man crush on him... haha.. obviously the both of us are going to say carter and allen.. cause we watch them play and its our personal opinion.. u hype up allen as muhc as i hype up carter... lol..yea vince is not the beastly... islam in ur mouth every tiem down the court he use to be.... but hes still a very solid palyer.. i would'nt say he has broken down... at all.. he is still producing and his numbers tell it..He allen was putting up beast numbers before he came to boston thats true.. but vince was putting up beast numbers even last year lol... so he hasnt declined too much yet.. allen has show that.. and i understand his number will not be the same.. with kg, an pierce.. but he was also not the same allen.. it was clear.. he did struggle last... year.. u say b4 allen came to boston he was a beast.. but carter was even more a beast lol.. he would put up 25 5 and 5... and he came close to doing it last year as well.. so he hasnt declined as muhc as ray.. I don;t know its just the way i feel. Allen still has the best shot in the game.. i just dont think he does anything else better than vince..

But again ur gonna say i have a man crush on vince... i can say u have a man crush on allen lol.

J-N-M-ETS4LYF
08-15-2008, 12:01 PM
u have this sickening man crush on Vince Carter.. when he first joined the league he was a FORCE....now hes broken down and really isnt his former self. Ray Allen although slumped a bit in the playoffs played like a beast in the finals. And before he came to Boston 2 be THE THIRD OPTION was putting up all-star numbers constantly.


1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac
5) Ray Allen
6) joe Johnson
7) Vince Carter
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) manu

Thats my list and im sticking to it.

ur list isn't that bad at all.. though.. i just think allen is a little to high .. and vince is a little too low ..b ut im guessing thats cause ur a celtic fan... and im a nets fan... but other than that ur top ten i would agree with... U really wouldnt put iggy in the top ten? .. at least u didn't overate manu and roy.... roy is top ten but is arguablet o me.. him or j rich.. id ont htink mnau is top ten but hes definitly in contention for it.... but michael redd and rip have to be in the top ten.

AgentViet
08-15-2008, 12:27 PM
Iguodala with his 20/5/5 leading that young team into the playoffs.

yaowowrocket11
08-15-2008, 12:28 PM
I voted for Rip Hamilton. Most veteran leadership experience.

SwaggaIke
08-15-2008, 12:29 PM
Redd is so overrated. No defense and he's one dimensional. Rip should come before him.

mikedesi1004
08-15-2008, 12:33 PM
michael redd

superkegger
08-15-2008, 12:51 PM
I don't really see iggy as a 2 guard. but then again tmac is considered a 2 guard so whatever. I voted redd since jrich would be like voting for nader...

Dirty Dirk41
08-15-2008, 12:59 PM
haha u say i have a sickening man crush on vince? Lol dude im gonna say the same thinkg about you and ray allen Lol.. I think u got a man crush on him... haha.. obviously the both of us are going to say carter and allen.. cause we watch them play and its our personal opinion.. u hype up allen as muhc as i hype up carter... lol..yea vince is not the beastly... islam in ur mouth every tiem down the court he use to be.... but hes still a very solid palyer.. i would'nt say he has broken down... at all.. he is still producing and his numbers tell it..He allen was putting up beast numbers before he came to boston thats true.. but vince was putting up beast numbers even last year lol... so he hasnt declined too much yet.. allen has show that.. and i understand his number will not be the same.. with kg, an pierce.. but he was also not the same allen.. it was clear.. he did struggle last... year.. u say b4 allen came to boston he was a beast.. but carter was even more a beast lol.. he would put up 25 5 and 5... and he came close to doing it last year as well.. so he hasnt declined as muhc as ray.. I don;t know its just the way i feel. Allen still has the best shot in the game.. i just dont think he does anything else better than vince..

But again ur gonna say i have a man crush on vince... i can say u have a man crush on allen lol.

Dude. Im not basing my pick of allen because of last year. Allen wasnt the same Allen because he didnt get the touches. For obvious reason we ran through K.G. Paul Pierce, the face of the franchise and team captain lead the team in points, He got more touches then Allen. If Allen Wasnt on the celtics id still be taking him over Vince. I dont want to take anything away from Vince and make it seem like i think he sucks. Thats just silly. But your right, its silly to even argue. i like allen, you like carter. and thats where it end.

op12
08-15-2008, 01:19 PM
Redd is so overrated. No defense and he's one dimensional. Rip should come before him.


agree 100%.

J-Relo
08-15-2008, 01:25 PM
REDD>MARTIN>RIP>ROY


i like IGGY, but putting him in SG confused me, so he doesn't get my vote... :)

still1ballin
08-15-2008, 01:47 PM
gotta go with redd

Mile High Champ
08-15-2008, 03:57 PM
its a two horse race her for 10...

Dirty Dirk41
08-15-2008, 04:03 PM
kevin martin is winning>??? over RIP AND REDD????

LA_cabals
08-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Rip Hamilton.

Rip is currently a better OVERALL player than both K Martin and M Redd. If I were to make a scale from 1-10 with every category imaginable R Hamilton would win the overall score. No question about it. It's that simple.

Jay22Redd
08-15-2008, 04:27 PM
k-mart

Kyle N.
08-15-2008, 04:34 PM
K-Mart is one of the most productive SG in the league. Yeah I'm biased, but aren't we all.

GSW fan
08-15-2008, 04:45 PM
wheres 6

GSW fan
08-15-2008, 04:49 PM
there is no #6

GSW fan
08-15-2008, 04:50 PM
its pissin me off

GSW fan
08-15-2008, 04:53 PM
you guys messed up

GSW fan
08-15-2008, 05:01 PM
learn how to count champ

IversonIsKrazy
08-15-2008, 05:02 PM
kevin martin 4 this 1 w/o a doubt. i disagree that tmac is ranked higher than ai even though he hasnt passed the 1st round w/ vince, hill & yao but w/e. who were the top 10 pg?

bogdanrom
08-15-2008, 05:26 PM
Uhmm Vince should by # 4.. hes proven to be better than tmac as well...Tmac doesnt produce nearly as much.. and doesnt even play as much.. heck he doesnt even win as much...
..and please dont even compare Ray allen to anyone on that list.. ray allen is like not even in the top 10 no more.... Talkin about vince carter on the decline? ARE u crazy Ray allen is ont eh biggest decline ever... Carter is still producing.. allen had the worst year of his career least season.. he didn't even average 20 last year.. hes not dynamic at all anymore.. relies to much on his shot..... same thing with ginobli he shouldnt even be on the top 10.. hes not nearly dynamic enough as htose other players.... he has never averaged more than 20 in his damn career.. The guys is a third option and plays with Tim Duncan and parker.. who take a lot of attention off of him... Not to mention the dude travels every time he drives into the paint.. ANd ur complaing about Vince>? hes up there trust... 1 of only 3 to dscore 20 ppg, 6 reb, and 5ast... along with lebron, and kobe.. the two best in the game.. so how is he not top 5? He was hurt when he did that too.... You guys don't watch him play and judge himon stupid things u hear on TNT....

Eveyrone talks aobut how carter is old.. and is on the decline... wtf??? Ray allen is ten times more donee. he cant do anyhting but shoot no more.. and he gets tourched when playing defense... joe johnson made a fool out of him in the playoffs
SO yea ray allen shouldnt be up there but w/e....

I thought that rip hamilton, iggy, and micheal redd should have all made the top ten over Roy, allen, and manu..... Those guys are so muhc better... Roy is a nice player but hes not as good as the others mentioned....

Now since roy, allen, and manu are in the tip 10 ... only 1 player out of rip , iggy, and redd will make it... which sucks big time...
1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) Carter
5) Tmac
6) joe Johnson
7) Iggy
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) jay rich? ROy.. not sure which one

But all of those guys are way better "basketball palyers" than allen & ginobli
they do so much more on the court.. people like to crown those two overated players just becaue they have rings on their fingers...> Trust me iF all of those players from 3-10 ever played with the likes of TIm duncan, Tony Parker, Kevein garnett, Paul Pierce... they would have rings on their fingers as well...

You lose all respect when you don't have Ginobili and Ray Allen in the top 10 SG.

BigEric
08-15-2008, 05:37 PM
Yeah Kevin Martin is winning, good stuff.

Beno7500
08-15-2008, 05:54 PM
Kevin Martin is winning,

still1ballin
08-15-2008, 06:31 PM
Kevin Martin is winning,

Wow! You can read.

pwest6
08-15-2008, 06:35 PM
Jason Richardson deserves more votes.

Beno7500
08-15-2008, 06:37 PM
Wow! You can read.

That's insane huh!?

CowboysKB24
08-15-2008, 06:40 PM
Who the number 48th in the league? I am so interested. Who cares who is number ten. THERE IS NO WAY MCGRADY IS THIRD IN THE LEAGUE with 41.9% shooting last season from the field and 28% from 3-point and 69% from the line. PLEASE TELL ME HE IS NO NUMBER THREE. That is sad for the NBA if that is their third. REDO this top ten now.

CHief_0_o_Wahoo
08-15-2008, 07:00 PM
Should be Michael Redd.

Kyle N.
08-15-2008, 07:00 PM
wheres 6

Vince and Manu are tied for #5, and there's another poll to vote for them on.

kvrnm
08-15-2008, 07:05 PM
redd is getting no love...

KingStunna
08-15-2008, 07:27 PM
Lets go Kmart

MoJay
08-15-2008, 09:02 PM
Last thread I explained how Redd is better and don't feel like doing it again Redd should clearly be the winner - I also don't like how this voting is going Redd should be leader with Rip @ #2 and Richardson and MArtin should be close not 36 and 5

Jayg1712
08-15-2008, 09:16 PM
Its gotta be Redd or Andre. No question

Mr. 3 Stacks
08-15-2008, 09:17 PM
rip hamilton. i give him a slight edge over redd.

Mr. 3 Stacks
08-15-2008, 09:19 PM
martin is leading.....:laugh::laugh:

come on...

IversonIsKrazy
08-15-2008, 09:38 PM
kevin martin deserces it. i still cant believe mac is rated higher than ai, i mean c'mon.

who were the top 10 pg's?

Beno7500
08-15-2008, 09:43 PM
martin is leading.....:laugh::laugh:

come on...

You just mad because he has more votes than Ellis.

LA_cabals
08-15-2008, 10:33 PM
I guess I have to say it again...


Rip Hamilton.

Rip is currently a better OVERALL player than both K Martin and M Redd. If I were to make a scale from 1-10 with every category imaginable R Hamilton would win the overall score. No question about it. It's that simple.

mosdef17
08-15-2008, 11:18 PM
Uhmm Vince should by # 4.. hes proven to be better than tmac as well...Tmac doesnt produce nearly as much.. and doesnt even play as much.. heck he doesnt even win as much...
..and please dont even compare Ray allen to anyone on that list.. ray allen is like not even in the top 10 no more.... Talkin about vince carter on the decline? ARE u crazy Ray allen is ont eh biggest decline ever... Carter is still producing.. allen had the worst year of his career least season.. he didn't even average 20 last year.. hes not dynamic at all anymore.. relies to much on his shot..... same thing with ginobli he shouldnt even be on the top 10.. hes not nearly dynamic enough as htose other players.... he has never averaged more than 20 in his damn career.. The guys is a third option and plays with Tim Duncan and parker.. who take a lot of attention off of him... Not to mention the dude travels every time he drives into the paint.. ANd ur complaing about Vince>? hes up there trust... 1 of only 3 to dscore 20 ppg, 6 reb, and 5ast... along with lebron, and kobe.. the two best in the game.. so how is he not top 5? He was hurt when he did that too.... You guys don't watch him play and judge himon stupid things u hear on TNT....

Eveyrone talks aobut how carter is old.. and is on the decline... wtf??? Ray allen is ten times more donee. he cant do anyhting but shoot no more.. and he gets tourched when playing defense... joe johnson made a fool out of him in the playoffs
SO yea ray allen shouldnt be up there but w/e....

I thought that rip hamilton, iggy, and micheal redd should have all made the top ten over Roy, allen, and manu..... Those guys are so muhc better... Roy is a nice player but hes not as good as the others mentioned....

Now since roy, allen, and manu are in the tip 10 ... only 1 player out of rip , iggy, and redd will make it... which sucks big time...
1) kobe
2) wade
3) AI
4) Carter
5) Tmac
6) joe Johnson
7) Iggy
8) Michael Redd
9) rip hamilton
10) jay rich? ROy.. not sure which one

But all of those guys are way better "basketball palyers" than allen & ginobli
they do so much more on the court.. people like to crown those two overated players just becaue they have rings on their fingers...> Trust me iF all of those players from 3-10 ever played with the likes of TIm duncan, Tony Parker, Kevein garnett, Paul Pierce... they would have rings on their fingers as well...

You lost a bit of creditbility when you talk about Iguodala being a Shooting Guard. Fact is, Vince is only loved by people like you because he is a freak athlete that is probably the best dunker of all time and a guy that has given us a number of highlights. Wow, and if you think 20ppg on 44.4% 3PT Shooting from Joe Johnson against the best defense in the league is embarrassing then you have very high and unrealistic expectations. Sure it could have been better, but it is not embarrassing by a LONG shot. You also don't have Ginobili on your list which loses you credibility.

If you want to base this on whole careers then Ray Allen is better then Vince Carter. Give me Ray Allen any day. He is the one of the greatest 3 point shooters ever, great offense but most of all.. what separated him. He plays defense. Vince is an unwilling defender. You can't just go by stats, that's ridiculous. Ray plays a disciplined style of Basketball and Vince is a guy that will throw up a lot of bad shots and does not try on the defensive end on a consistent basis. Ray Allen is the man, such an under-appreciated player and has been for many years.

Go by current comparisons? Then they might be comparable but only because Ray is in a team where he does not need to carry the load anymore. They are probably on par. But if you look at Vince's extremely inflated stats then of course your going to jump on that side. His stats are only that large because he is in a team that don't really have many other weapons and he is okay to take 20FG attempts a game. Ray did have a down season, but not much down. Sure, his stats took a hit, but he is playing with Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett now. Who's stats wouldn't take a hit.

Defense is something underrated by a lot of people, such as yourself. Carter is unwilling to play defense. Don't bother looking at Steals and Blocks per game because it means very little. Bruce Bowen basically every year of his career has averaged under 1 steal per game.

Vince is not a very good basketball player. He can shoot the ball pretty okay and he is extremely athletically gifted but hey give me Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili or Rip Hamilton any day- they are the pieces that will put rings on your finger.

DerekRE_3
08-15-2008, 11:51 PM
I would be interested to see how many people actually watch Kevin Martin play.

Kevin Martin


PPG 23.7
RPG 4.5
APG 2.1
SPG 1.0
BPG 0.1
FG% 0.456
FT% 0.869
3P% 0.402
MPG 36.3

Michael Redd


PPG 22.7
RPG 4.3
APG 3.4
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.442
FT% 0.820
3P% 0.362
MPG 37.5

So Martin shoots a better percentage, scores more points on less shots. Martin averaged 15 shots a game, Redd averaged 17. Yet Martin got 1 ppg more. That's efficiency. On defense they are a wash in my opinion.

Dirty Dirk41
08-15-2008, 11:59 PM
You lost a bit of creditbility when you talk about Iguodala being a Shooting Guard. Fact is, Vince is only loved by people like you because he is a freak athlete that is probably the best dunker of all time and a guy that has given us a number of highlights. Wow, and if you think 20ppg on 44.4% 3PT Shooting from Joe Johnson against the best defense in the league is embarrassing then you have very high and unrealistic expectations. Sure it could have been better, but it is not embarrassing by a LONG shot. You also don't have Ginobili on your list which loses you credibility.

If you want to base this on whole careers then Ray Allen is better then Vince Carter. Give me Ray Allen any day. He is the one of the greatest 3 point shooters ever, great offense but most of all.. what separated him. He plays defense. Vince is an unwilling defender. You can't just go by stats, that's ridiculous. Ray plays a disciplined style of Basketball and Vince is a guy that will throw up a lot of bad shots and does not try on the defensive end on a consistent basis. Ray Allen is the man, such an under-appreciated player and has been for many years.

Go by current comparisons? Then they might be comparable but only because Ray is in a team where he does not need to carry the load anymore. They are probably on par. But if you look at Vince's extremely inflated stats then of course your going to jump on that side. His stats are only that large because he is in a team that don't really have many other weapons and he is okay to take 20FG attempts a game. Ray did have a down season, but not much down. Sure, his stats took a hit, but he is playing with Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett now. Who's stats wouldn't take a hit.

Defense is something underrated by a lot of people, such as yourself. Carter is unwilling to play defense. Don't bother looking at Steals and Blocks per game because it means very little. Bruce Bowen basically every year of his career has averaged under 1 steal per game.

Vince is not a very good basketball player. He can shoot the ball pretty okay and he is extremely athletically gifted but hey give me Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili or Rip Hamilton any day- they are the pieces that will put rings on your finger.

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::c heers::cheers::cheers:
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:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

Kyle N.
08-16-2008, 12:16 AM
I would be interested to see how many people actually watch Kevin Martin play.

Kevin Martin


PPG 23.7
RPG 4.5
APG 2.1
SPG 1.0
BPG 0.1
FG% 0.456
FT% 0.869
3P% 0.402
MPG 36.3

Michael Redd


PPG 22.7
RPG 4.3
APG 3.4
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.442
FT% 0.820
3P% 0.362
MPG 37.5

So Martin shoots a better percentage, scores more points on less shots. Martin averaged 15 shots a game, Redd averaged 17. Yet Martin got 1 ppg more. That's efficiency. On defense they are a wash in my opinion.

I watch Kevin Martin play. He's pretty good. :dance:

Dirty Dirk41
08-16-2008, 12:23 AM
RIP is def a top 10 sg in this league. cant believe hes left off. dont matter, what does this list actually mean or prove???

YankeeFan89
08-16-2008, 12:25 AM
I would go with so many guys here...But i chose Rip.

hyphy king 88
08-16-2008, 12:29 AM
Wow. I'm surprised a lot of you said Redd is better then Martin. Like what Derek posted, he is obviously better and is 3-4 years younger so he has much room to grow. He was 6th in the league in scoring last year and was more efficient then the guys above him. With Artest gone, hes going to take most of the load so hes going to score even more. I think Rip is better then Martin right now, but he has a lot more time to get better. Igoudala doesn't even count cause hes a SF or else I would have picked him over Martin. I think you guys underrate Martin too much.

DerekRE_3
08-16-2008, 12:46 AM
Wow. I'm surprised a lot of you said Redd is better then Martin. Like what Derek posted, he is obviously better and is 3-4 years younger so he has much room to grow. He was 6th in the league in scoring last year and was more efficient then the guys above him. With Artest gone, hes going to take most of the load so hes going to score even more. I think Rip is better then Martin right now, but he has a lot more time to get better. Igoudala doesn't even count cause hes a SF or else I would have picked him over Martin. I think you guys underrate Martin too much.


I think most people haven't seen Martin play. I'd say it's pretty close between Rip and Martin. Martin is a better scorer, but Rip is a better defender.

hyphy king 88
08-16-2008, 12:53 AM
[/B]

I think most people haven't seen Martin play. I'd say it's pretty close between Rip and Martin. Martin is a better scorer, but Rip is a better defender.

Well, if thats the case then people shouldn't judge a player if they haven't seen him play before. I seen him play a lot and hes the real deal. I think he plays great on the offensive side, but i think hes not a bad defender as well. Him and Rip are close though.

DerekRE_3
08-16-2008, 12:55 AM
Well, if thats the case then people shouldn't judge a player if they haven't seen him play before. I seen him play a lot and hes the real deal. I think he plays great on the offensive side, but i think hes not a bad defender as well. Him and Rip are close though.

Yeah. Michael Redd is just a bigger name than Martin right now.

hyphy king 88
08-16-2008, 01:22 AM
Yeah. Michael Redd is just a bigger name than Martin right now.

True. Someday he'll be a household name. Btw, your sig is a priceless bro. Haha.

DerekRE_3
08-16-2008, 01:23 AM
Thanks man.

LakerzDQ
08-16-2008, 09:30 AM
there is no way i would put mcgrady over allen i wtf?

lol, cool. 33 years old Ray Allen over a priming Tracy McGrady huh?

LakerzDQ
08-16-2008, 09:31 AM
Thanks man.

dude, why am I not in your sig? I thought we were tight? :mad:

LakerzDQ
08-16-2008, 09:32 AM
I watch Kevin Martin play. He's pretty good. :dance:

lmao. who would've thought?

SwaggaIke
08-16-2008, 12:43 PM
Anybody who has cable television has seen Martin play. But he's still not better than Rip and neither is Redd.

Beno7500
08-16-2008, 12:54 PM
K Mart wins...

DerekRE_3
08-16-2008, 12:54 PM
dude, why am I not in your sig? I thought we were tight? :mad:

Are you in the PSD NBA Sim League?

DerekRE_3
08-16-2008, 12:56 PM
Anybody who has cable television has seen Martin play. But he's still not better than Rip and neither is Redd.

Actually unless you live in Sacramento you need NBA League Pass to watch him play. The Kings were on National TV once last year I believe, and this year they may be on NBA TV a couple times.

SwaggaIke
08-16-2008, 01:27 PM
Actually unless you live in Sacramento you need NBA League Pass to watch him play. The Kings were on National TV once last year I believe, and this year they may be on NBA TV a couple times.

I have DirecTV and NBA League pass. I also have all the the Fox Sports Net channels for the majority of the sports markets. I see Martin regularly. There is no denying his potential. But the strongest part of his game is his shooting ability and ability to work off the ball. He shares those same strengths w/ Rip. And guess what? Rip does it better and brings stifling defense to the table as well. And before people start saying i'm a Detroit homer because that's where I lay my head. I'm not. I hate the Pistons.

IversonIsKrazy
08-16-2008, 09:59 PM
well as i agree with the pole. kevin martin deserves this. rip = overrated.
redd = overrated

DerekRE_3
08-17-2008, 02:53 AM
I have DirecTV and NBA League pass. I also have all the the Fox Sports Net channels for the majority of the sports markets. I see Martin regularly. There is no denying his potential. But the strongest part of his game is his shooting ability and ability to work off the ball. He shares those same strengths w/ Rip. And guess what? Rip does it better and brings stifling defense to the table as well. And before people start saying i'm a Detroit homer because that's where I lay my head. I'm not. I hate the Pistons.

Martin does more than just shoot and move without the ball. He can drive and is great at drawing fouls and getting to the line. He also has great focus and can finish after getting hit and can get the and 1.

MoJay
08-17-2008, 08:00 AM
Rip = overrated I'm a fan of Michael Redd and I think this spot is deserving of Rip/Redd

Rip is def. not overrated and I'm a Bucks fan

SwaggaIke
08-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Martin does more than just shoot and move without the ball. He can drive and is great at drawing fouls and getting to the line. He also has great focus and can finish after getting hit and can get the and 1.

I didn't say that's all he does. I said those are the main strength's of his game. He is too overhyped on PSD. He's getting just like Calderon. He is not currently better than Rip and that's how it is. Nobody is denying what he'll be in the future, but right now he's not on Rips level. He doesn't even do it on both sides of the floor yet.

Chronz
08-17-2008, 03:40 PM
I have DirecTV and NBA League pass. I also have all the the Fox Sports Net channels for the majority of the sports markets. I see Martin regularly. There is no denying his potential. But the strongest part of his game is his shooting ability and ability to work off the ball. He shares those same strengths w/ Rip. And guess what? Rip does it better and brings stifling defense to the table as well. And before people start saying i'm a Detroit homer because that's where I lay my head. I'm not. I hate the Pistons.

Actually Kevins biggest strength lies in the fact that he gets to the line with such great regularity.

And how does RIP do it better than Kevin? Both are equally efficient from the field but the fact that Kevin gets to the line nearly double what RIP does makes him far more effective, RIP is underrated but not as much Kevin is.

IversonIsKrazy
08-17-2008, 03:47 PM
kevin martin won!

SwaggaIke
08-18-2008, 01:55 AM
Actually Kevins biggest strength lies in the fact that he gets to the line with such great regularity.

And how does RIP do it better than Kevin? Both are equally efficient from the field but the fact that Kevin gets to the line nearly double what RIP does makes him far more effective, RIP is underrated but not as much Kevin is.

If you put Kevin Martin in a recreational setting and there were no free throws, his biggest strength would be the same as Rip's. Getting to the line is not a strength or talent. That's toughness. The willingness to sacrifice your body for gimmie points. Martin is an underrated player, but he's definitely becoming overrated on this site.

Chronz
08-18-2008, 05:44 AM
If you put Kevin Martin in a recreational setting and there were no free throws, his biggest strength would be the same as Rip's. Getting to the line is not a strength or talent. That's toughness. The willingness to sacrifice your body for gimmie points. Martin is an underrated player, but he's definitely becoming overrated on this site.

That made zero sense man, your saying if Kevin Martin isnt playing in the NBA its not strength, but we're talking about players in the NBA where FT/A exists, and in this setting it is a strength in his game.

And Kevin Martin can be whatever you want so long as you recognize hes in this class with RIP and Redd.

SwaggaIke
08-18-2008, 04:01 PM
That made zero sense man, your saying if Kevin Martin isnt playing in the NBA its not strength, but we're talking about players in the NBA where FT/A exists, and in this setting it is a strength in his game.

And Kevin Martin can be whatever you want so long as you recognize hes in this class with RIP and Redd.

The strength of his game is his shooting ability and ability to play w/o the ball. I've seen plenty of Kings fans also state that same point. Those are the same strength's as Rip. Yea he's in the same class, but he's not better than Rip. He's definitely better than Redd who is a one dimensional player who plays no defense.

Beno7500
08-18-2008, 07:25 PM
If you put Kevin Martin in a recreational setting and there were no free throws, his biggest strength would be the same as Rip's. Getting to the line is not a strength or talent. That's toughness. The willingness to sacrifice your body for gimmie points. Martin is an underrated player, but he's definitely becoming overrated on this site.

:laugh2:

I guess you could say the same thing about Wade then right?

njnets
08-18-2008, 10:09 PM
goes to show you how many good shooting guards are in the league.

SwaggaIke
08-18-2008, 11:06 PM
:laugh2:

I guess you could say the same thing about Wade then right?

You definitely could. Yet he still manages to score 17 points a game in ways other than free throws. That 17 points is nearly 2 more than Martin's average for his entire career. So what are we getting at? We all know Dwyane's all around game is far more polished than Martin's. Getting to the line is not a "talent" or a "knack". Anybody who can to put the ball on the floor can get to the line if they are willing to put their body on the line.

Chronz
08-19-2008, 04:47 AM
The strength of his game is his shooting ability and ability to play w/o the ball. I've seen plenty of Kings fans also state that same point. Those are the same strength's as Rip. Yea he's in the same class, but he's not better than Rip. He's definitely better than Redd who is a one dimensional player who plays no defense.
What separates him from RIP is the fact that he can get to the line, thats why hes so efficient. Thats a strength in his game, he compliments that strength with great off the ball movement and shooting ability, dont see why you think Im saying he doesnt, but RIP doesnt have that slashing ability, he used to be somewhat in Kevin's league in that regard but that was a long time ago.

Let me break it down for you:
eFG%: (RIP: .515) (Martin: .515)
So from the field they are pretty much equal, but heres how they are different. 81% of RIP's fg/a are jumpshots compared to 72% for Martin. Basically Kevin drives more. RIP shoots a higher percentage from his jumper but alot of that has to do with Chauncey Billups and how much better he is at finding Rip on the move.

When you factor in how good they are at getting to the line (TS% .618 Kevin & .552 RIP) Kevin is at an MJ in his prime type efficiency scoring the ball, hes not as good at creating as many looks but thats how more effective he is than RIP. Basically what Im trying to say you can label his specialty as whatever you want, so long as you know its his ability to get to the line is what separates him from RIP and why hes a better offensive weapon, RIP is better on defense and has a more refined passing game but dont try to make it seem like RIP and Kevin are equals as far as scoring gos.

Also calling Redd one dimensional isnt a diss, so long as what hes good at, hes really good at. You may call him one dimensional I can call him a specialist, it really makes no difference, all that matters is his impact and Redd is also in that same league with these 2, and hes put alot of work into his game to become more versatile. Mitch Ritchmond was pretty "one dimensional" but MJ listed him as one of the toughest players he ever had to guard. In the end IMPACT is all that matters.

Chronz
08-19-2008, 04:53 AM
You definitely could. Yet he still manages to score 17 points a game in ways other than free throws. That 17 points is nearly 2 more than Martin's average for his entire career. So what are we getting at? We all know Dwyane's all around game is far more polished than Martin's. Getting to the line is not a "talent" or a "knack". Anybody who can to put the ball on the floor can get to the line if they are willing to put their body on the line.
Thank god we arent putting these players in a recreational setting, its the NBA. And in the NBA getting to the line is a talent, if any GM thought the way you did and never analyzed the game from knowing who the best slashers were in the league and knowing how to improve that aspect on your team then you would be out of a job in no time.

Also Wade averages more points because hes focuses more on driving than shooting jumpers, thats his biggest strength in his game. Im curious to see if you have to audacity to suggest getting to the line isnt one of Wades strengths.

SwaggaIke
08-19-2008, 04:38 PM
Thank god we arent putting these players in a recreational setting, its the NBA. And in the NBA getting to the line is a talent, if any GM thought the way you did and never analyzed the game from knowing who the best slashers were in the league and knowing how to improve that aspect on your team then you would be out of a job in no time.

Also Wade averages more points because hes focuses more on driving than shooting jumpers, thats his biggest strength in his game. Im curious to see if you have to audacity to suggest getting to the line isnt one of Wades strengths.

Slashing IS a talent, because it involves superior ball handling ability. But getting to the line IS NOT a talent. Just like scoring on the goaline as a running back isn't a talent. If you're willing to put your pads down, even the least skilled player can get it past the goaline. If you can handle the rock, getting to the line is about taking the punishment and throwing the ball up when you hear the whistle. FINISHING AFTER THE FOUL IS A TALENT. But GETTING FOULED is not. Right now you're attempting to question my knowledge of a sport i've followed religiously my entire life. It is a foolish attempt. All I said was the strength of Martin's game was moving w/o the ball and shooting. I didn't say that's ALL he could do. I never called him a 1 dimensional player w/ no facets to his game. I know who the best SLASHERS and the game are. But that doesn't change the fact that getting to the line isn't a TALENT. I guess Shaquille getting to the line as many times as he did during his career was due to his tremendous talent? No. It was due to the fact that he was/is willing to be the only professional wrestler in basketball. Scoring after the foul is a talent, getting fouled is not.

And as far as the Mitch Ritchmond comparison goes. Mitch was a 1 dimensional in terms of being a scorer. Redd is 1 dimensional in terms of all he can do is shoot. He is still an unreliable ball handler and lackluster slasher. He's never been a great passer and his assists and turnover averages are nearly neck and neck for his career. And for the record he's never been much of a dead eye shooter w/ his percentage on a steady decline over the past 3 seasons.

cmellofan15
08-19-2008, 06:36 PM
I think Martin is better than Roy but thats just my opinion...

mcnasty54
08-19-2008, 06:57 PM
Rip got disrespected here.

Hawkeye15
08-19-2008, 07:22 PM
first off, how the hell is Roy ahead of Hamilton, Redd, or Ike?????? This whole poll is bogus after number 5

Knicks845
08-19-2008, 07:40 PM
wtf kevin martin over ****ing m. redd, get the *** outa heree.

chabodave22
08-19-2008, 07:50 PM
Redd

Chronz
08-20-2008, 01:11 AM
Slashing IS a talent, because it involves superior ball handling ability.
It involves alot more than superior ball handling, in fact some of them like Maggette arent very good ball handlers at all, but yes the best ones are usually good ball handlers.


But getting to the line IS NOT a talent.
Youve said nothing to disprove otherwise, being able to draw fouls is a talent and a strength. How you accomplish it determines what your talented at.


Just like scoring on the goaline as a running back isn't a talent.
Im not following the connection your trying to make.


If you're willing to put your pads down, even the least skilled player can get it past the goaline. If you can handle the rock, getting to the line is about taking the punishment and throwing the ball up when you hear the whistle. FINISHING AFTER THE FOUL IS A TALENT. But GETTING FOULED is not.

No not anyone can get to the line or else there would be more players in the league keeping their jobs. And again, there is alot more to the game than just taking punishment.


Right now you're attempting to question my knowledge of a sport i've followed religiously my entire life. It is a foolish attempt.

I dont question you love the sport, just debating dont take it personal, moving on.


All I said was the strength of Martin's game was moving w/o the ball and shooting. I didn't say that's ALL he could do.
I never said you did, I was saying slashing is what separates him from RIP, the fact that he gets to the line ALOT more is what makes him a better scorer. You were trying to say they were equals or that RIP was better and thus since RIP is also a better 2-way player, it makes him superior. But thats not the case.


I never called him a 1 dimensional player w/ no facets to his game.
Show me where I said you did, please dont be one of those lengthy posters who writes alot but when you dissect their argument you realize they didnt have much of one, basically a whole lot of barking and not staying on topic.


I know who the best SLASHERS and the game are. But that doesn't change the fact that getting to the line isn't a TALENT.
Maybe you do, but it does if those guys are great at getting to the line because they are great at slashing or have a great understanding of the body positioning of the players around him, etc...


I guess Shaquille getting to the line as many times as he did during his career was due to his tremendous talent? No. It was due to the fact that he was/is willing to be the only professional wrestler in basketball.
LMAO first of all was Shaq a slasher? Secondly your trying to make it seem like Shaqs body wasnt a talent and strength in his game, he was able to play the way he did because he was so big. That my friend is a tremendous talent.

Anybody with a high ft/a to possession ratio has a great talent at getting to the line.


Scoring after the foul is a talent, getting fouled is not.
Being adept at getting to the free throw line is a talent.


And as far as the Mitch Ritchmond comparison goes. Mitch was a 1 dimensional in terms of being a scorer. Redd is 1 dimensional in terms of all he can do is shoot.
You obviously dont know much about Redd if you think hes just a shooter.


He is still an unreliable ball handler and lackluster slasher. He's never been a great passer and his assists and turnover averages are nearly neck and neck for his career. And for the record he's never been much of a dead eye shooter w/ his percentage on a steady decline over the past 3 seasons.

Hes a great slasher he just suffers from tunnel vision, hes attempted to expand his game and this year his assist ratio and assisting% have gone up. And no matter how his efficiency from the field suffers hes still a better scorer than RIP.