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View Full Version : Jerry Angelo Draft Guru or Bonehead ??



Bulldog76
08-14-2008, 03:08 PM
OK, so Cambo and I disagree on the success failure rate of Jerry Angelo as a GM in the draft...While it is undeniable that he is a defensive minded GM, building this team to win through defense, I would point to his overall failures outweighing the success he has had through the draft...

I put in this argument the counter response of, if you draft 50 playes some of them are going to lucky and some are going to be unlucky... So that should not influence or excuse any pick on either side of the debate...

Here we go...

Jerry's First Draft...2002

1. Marc Colombo, injury set him back 2 years, but he must be regarded as a failure in Chicago...He would be nice to have now, but did nothing for us while he was here other than flush Big Cat out of the building a year earlier than necessary
2. Roe Williams, BUST
3. Terrance Metcalf, He has started less than ten games in his six year career, in the third round we should not be drafting career backups, we should be drafting starters across the o-line.
4. Alex Brown, Great pick, Brown slipped in the draft because his motor was questioned, something GMs around the league are kicking themselves for still
5. Bobby Gray...Played a few years, was a big hitter, but couldn't cover... a fifth rounder, but shouldn't be considered a great pick nor a failure...
5. Bryan Knight, BUST
6. Adrian Peterson, Slipped because of a lack of speed, but has made a nice career on special teams...
6. Jamin Elliott, Never made the team, even though he outplayed David Terrell for two years in the preseason...no real loss on investment
6. Bryan Fletcher...Not sure why he stuck other places but not here, same as Elliott...

So that draft class produced a special teamer, a starting DE, and a backup lineman that can't play dead...Not exactly great results in my eyes.

Jerry's Second Draft 2003
1a. Michael Haynes, BUST
1b. Rex Grossman, Needed a QB, but Rex has disappointed on the whole
2. Charles Tillman, Great
3. Lance Briggs, Great
4. Todd Johnson, Backup for a majority of his career, but a nice player
4. Ian Scott, Fell off the map once he left Chicago, but a nice player
5. Bobby Wade, BUST
5. Justin Gage, Traded up to get him and he sucked...BUST
5. Tron LaFavor, BUST
6. Joe Odom, Career backup...
6. Brock Forsey, No real investment made, but was not an NFL back
7. Bryan Anderson, never made the active roster

Probably his best draft, because of tillman, briggs and scott...but looking at the percentage of players that made an impact on the team (8,33,55, johnson and scott against the number of players that never made an impact haynes, wade, gage, lafavor, odom, forsey and anderson...it still isn't a great draft by any means.)

Drafting Haynes ahead of Troy Polamolu, George Foster, Jeff Faine, Dallas Clark, Kwame Harris, Larry Johnson and Eric Steibach should be noted...Or held the pick at 4 and taken Terrell Suggs


Jerry's Kids 2004

1. Tommie Harris, Great
2. Tank Johnson, Never understood this pick, why draft another DT, the year after drafting 2 other DTs...Tank never beat out Ian Scott, and was ultimately released for his multiple arrests...NOT A GOOD PICK
3. Bernard Berrian...Nice pick, we developed him and then let him go, so it may not be a bad draft pick, so much as a mismanaged contract situation when JA should have extended him on the cheap before his walk year
4. Vasher, GREAT
4. Joe, not a real contributor...released and resigned, fringe player
5. Claude Harriott...sucked
5. Craig Krenzel...wasted pick, the guy was terrible
7. Alfonso Marshall...never saw the field

Tommie, Vash and Berrian were nice pickups, the rest were not...3 out of 8 isn't a good ratio

2005...WORST DRAFT

1. Ced Benson, Mike Machok tells the story of how he bet Angelo dinner, that Benson would be a bust and Angelo will have to pay up on this one...Another first round bust for JA...Could have had Cadillac Williams, Jamal Brown, Derrick Johnson, DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman as they were all rated tops at their position
2. Mark Bradley, hasn't done anything on the field...potential doesn't mean anything if he flops again this year...could have been Michael Roos, Odell Thurman, Khalif Barnes or any number of other players who slipped in that draft
4. Kyle Orton...Drafts a QB for the 3rd year in a row...unsolved mystery with Orton to this point.
5. Airese Currie...BUST
6. Chris Harris, Solid rookie year, benched the second season, traded in the third...not sure what went wrong with him...
7. Rod Wilson, a special teams contributor...

Missing with your top 2 picks in any draft is a failure in my mind...

2006...the most confusing of all the drafts
2. Danieal Manning...Not sold on him yet...hasn't played well in run support appears lost most of the time in coverage
2. Devin Hester...Great
3. Dusty Dvoracek...I'm a fan, but hasn't been healthy since he got here
4. Jamar Williams...Drafted to replace Briggs...One problem, Briggs was resigned to a long term deal
5. Mark Anderson...Had a great rookie year and a sophomore slump...TBD
6. JD Runnels...Never saw the field
6. Tyler Reed...Coming on this camp, may make the team...

Hester and Anderson stand out in this group, but the rest are role players at best...

2007...too early to judge...but the Bazuin / Wolfe / Okwo picks were reaches at best thus far...

So, I'll let the galary weigh in and decide...looking at the impact these draft classes have had on the team and the amount of washouts in these classes what grade would you give Angelo's draft abilities...

BowDown
08-14-2008, 03:14 PM
I agree with everything you said. Great points. We missed on many guys but what the hell. I've learned to accept this from JA. Hopefully Chris Williams doesn't fall into the other bust picks! Can you say Marc Colombo?

Bulldog76
08-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Sorry for the length of the above post, I hope it reads quickly...

To be honest, I give Angelo a C- for his overall drafting, I realize that he could have drafted Vasher in the first round or the fourth round and we would all be happy with how he has turned out...but I also look at those type of picks as being class makers...Imagine if Angelo would have drafted the following players in the first round instead...

Marc Colombo or Kendall Simmons, Andre Gurode or LeCharles Bentley
Michael Haynes or Troy Polomalu
Tank Johnson or Devery Henderson or Darnell Dockett
Cedric Benson or Cadillac Williams (Bad draft class)
Mark Bradley or Michael Roos
Danieal Manning or Joseph Addai (traded 26 pick to Buffalo) or Marcus McNeil at 42...
Or in 2007, where we traded away #37 (fron NYJ for T. Jones) where we could have gotten Weddle, Tony Ugoh, Sidney Rice, or any number of other players instead of Dan Bazuin and Marcus Harrison...Nothing for nothing, I would prefer Tony Ugoh right now instead of a 4th DE...

Bulldog76
08-14-2008, 03:28 PM
I agree with everything you said. Great points. We missed on many guys but what the hell. I've learned to accept this from JA. Hopefully Chris Williams doesn't fall into the other bust picks! Can you say Marc Colombo?


What about Stan Thomas?

Max Power
08-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Excellent post. I'll, reluctantly give a 'C'. His late rounds have been useful. But I hate the way he punts the first round more often than not.

He probably shouldn't be allowed to even think about evaluating offensive talent. And I use the word talent, very loosely.

BowDown
08-14-2008, 03:37 PM
How bout the moves he's going to make... bringing in Fred Miller again???? What da fudge!!!!

DamnGoat
08-14-2008, 03:40 PM
I'll give Angelo an A when it comes to Defense, but a D when it comes to Offense.

It's hard to argue against his Defensive choices except one that really stands out in Michael Haynes. Other than that this Defense is loaded with his picks and most of them are locked up long-term.

Offensively it's another story...Grossman, Orton, Benson, Wolfe, Columbo (though he's been very good in Dallas), etc.

Looks like Forte will be good and the jury's still out on Williams. But overall he's done pretty poorly in judging Offensive talent. Probably the best offensive player he's taken in the last 5 years is Bernard Berrian...and that' just pathetic.

Bulldog76
08-14-2008, 03:41 PM
For the record, Sooper and I agreed on a subject...we both gave him a C...

I hate Angelo's offensive drafts...

St. Clair- Free Agent
Balough - Undrafted Free Agent
Beekman - Draft
Reed - Draft
Kreutz - Hatley Pick
Garza - Free Agent
Tait - Free Agent
Clark - Free Agent
Olsen - Draft
Booker - Free Agent
Lloyd - Free Agent
Hester - Draft
Bradley - Draft
8/18 - Draft
Forte - Draft
AP - Draft
KJ - Free Agent
Wolfe - Draft

Seriously, that is a lot of free agents to have on one side of the ball because you have missed so many times in the draft...and outside of Tait, I can't think of one high level free agent that signed in this group...the vast majority are re-treds, second day picks or underacheivers...

Soop
08-14-2008, 03:47 PM
For the record, Sooper and I agreed on a subject.


:laugh2:

cambovenzi
08-14-2008, 04:15 PM
i would give him a B or so.
plenty of amazing defensive picks.
and some busts on offense.

cambovenzi
08-14-2008, 04:27 PM
1st draft: not good. our team wasnt set up right.
but columbo did turn out well in dallas.
and he picked up alex brown and AP.
so it wasnt a complete bust.

2nd draft:
haynes= bust
but then he drafts one of the better QBs we've had in grossman(we needed a QB desperately),
Charles Tillman, and then Lance briggs in successive rounds.
great stuff right there.

3rd draft:
1st rounder: tommie harris. one of the best DT's in the league.
bernard berrian in the 3rd, and nathan vasher in the 4th. another great draft.

2005=4th draft:
1-benson. understood the pick at the time. didnt turn out well in Chicago last year.
2-mark bradley. has had some injury problems, and was stuck behind some guys on the depth chart. but too early to completely write him off.
got a good safety in harris in the 6th.
and orton in the 4th. solid BACKUP QB :)

2006:
still early but looks great so far.
no 1st rounder.
but takes Dmanning, and HESTER in the 2nd.
then goes dusty D, jamar williams, and mark anderson in rounds 3, 4 and 5.

07 draft:
agreed its way too early.
greg olsen looks very promising picked at the end of round 1.
couple of weird picks. not sure how those will pan out.

08:
needed an Olineman. drafted williams. we'll see how that turns out. good pick at the time.
needed a RB real bad too. goes and grabs forte in the 2nd. looks promising.

overall i think hes done a very nice job.
there are going to be busts, but he has loads of amazing picks.

Coach100
08-14-2008, 05:18 PM
I hate rating drafts and here is why:

JA drafted guys the team needed in early rounds and he didn't really reach for them. I mean he could have had Boller, but he traded down and took Grossman. For all of his crap, Rexy still took the Bears to the SB. No one was predicting Benson or Haynes to be busts. He didn't really reach on them, they just never made the transition. And you can't fault JA for guys being injured, like Columbo, Bradley, and now Williams. That stuff happens. So that isn't on JA in my book.

Sure, JA has reached on guys like Bazuin and Wolfe. But he has also drafted guys like Brown, Anderson, and Vasher in mid rounds and those are huge steals. I will admit that JA has a risky draft style in that he seems to love D-2A players and some of those guys will bust.

I think my point is that just becuase the class was bad doesn't mean it is entirely JA's fault. Tank being a tool isn't JA's fault. Injuries aren't his fault. And not every guy can pan out to be great, either. I will admit his has had very limited success in early rounds, but he has really racked in the middle rounds over the years.

Bulldog76
08-14-2008, 05:20 PM
Just to be clear on some things with Cambo...

My main problem with Angelo isn't so much who he drafts, but the positions he drafts...He has constantly drafted defensive players and tried to address the offense via free agency...The catch is that the checkbook isn't used to bring in new players on offense when the team is forced to resign players on defense. If he had invested high draft picks on offense instead of drafting Michael Okwo, Dan Bazuin, Tank Johnson and Danieal Manning...We wouldn't be in a situation where we are down to our last tackle before the start of the season, or we are scraping the bottom of the barrel for a wide receiver... His infatuation with drafting depth for our defense at the top of our drafts is inexcusable...

I don't care what anyone says, the Bazuin pick made no sense...He had Mark Anderson, Ogunleye, Brown and Idonije on the roster...and he spent a second round pick on a guy who realistically was competing for our 4th DE spot and lost..

Michael Okwo was another wasted pick because we resigned Briggs, making him a 5th or 6th linebacker...That is a position you can fill in later rounds of the draft every year...It just didn't make sense.

Tank was the 4th DT we had drafted in back to back drafts and while he had talent, who out there didn't think we needed to improve our offense at this point?

D. Manning was a small school corner...who we have moved to free safety and back to corner, now is our nickel corner and soon maybe someone else's corner because he may be outplayed by Bowman, McBride and Graham... Drafting a free safety when you had Mike Brown, Chris Harris and Todd Johnson on the team didn't make a whole lotta sense at the time, neither did trading out of the first round and missing out on Marcus McNeil, when we were using an aging Fred Miller on the right side...Had we drafted McNeil and groomed him for a year, we would have a pro bowl LT in MM and Tait on the right side now...and we wouldn't be in this situation...

Sure its easy to play second guessing games, but the fact is that Angelo ignored the needs along the offensive line for so long that we were caught totally out of whack last year when the injuries hit...The same thing at WR when we enter this season with ??? across the board at WR...

-Mark Bradley has sucked thus far in his career...He was healthy last year and couldn't beat out Moose or Rashied Davis.

-Colombo was never good for us...I don't see how he gets a passing grade, sure injuries happen everywhere, but Dallas was able to sign him and use him, we couldn't??

-Dusty Dvoracek has played in one half of one regular season game...How is that a good pick? Nobody's fault, and I will repeat myself, I like Dvoracek as a player when he's healthy, but we can't call that a good pick until he plays 10+ games in a season...

-Jamar Williams is our 4th LB...not sure what is so exciting about that to receive high praise from you. I look at Williams as the reason we let Berrian go. If he was capable of replacing Briggs to some level of competance, than we would have resigned BB...He wasn't, so we had to pay Briggs, than as a result of that we had to pay 54 (again) and then as a result of that we had the Hester holdout situation, which had most of us on edge...He's a nice player, but the ripple effects of this pick are still being felt...

-Chris Harris was a good safety...than we benched him...than traded him...so I don't think that gets a passing grade considering it provided us with nothing to show (unless you count the pick that was sent for Darwin Walker???), so how is one year of service considered a solid pick...

-Benson was a bad pick when it happened, his character issues were questioned by a lot of scouts, some questioned it publicly...Not sure how you can excuse that one in any way shape or form. Especially when we had T. Jones at the time who was playing well...I could see a second/third round pick on a complimentary back, but a top 5 pick did not make sense. Especially Benson.

As for the Haynes/Grossman draft...I am going to start an uproar with this one...Michael Haynes should have never been considered for this team... If memory serves we had Alex Brown coming off a solid rookie season and an effective Phillip Daniels...Teams were not going to run against us and the priority of this draft should have fallen on the QB position...

We held the #4 pick overall and Cincinnati took Carson Palmer with the #1 pick...While they had Jon Kitna...My position back then was to trade the #4 pick, David Terrell (stll had value back then) and a second day pick to move up and draft Carson Palmer...Cincy would have had Leftwich on the board @ #4 and would have added the WR they were looking for as well as another late round pick...and they would have gotten away from spending big money on the top overall pick...Seemed to me at the time that it would have made a lot of sense, however Angelo traded down in the draft rather than up...which I personally disagree with...

Had we done that...what situation do you think we would be in now?

WorldChamps1908
08-14-2008, 05:31 PM
Angelo picks good defenders, but thats his problem..it seems as though thats the only thing he prepares for, when in actuality our OFFENSE has been the main problem for YEARS..He NEVER drafts a big name offensive guy (Ced Benson being an exception-I may be forgetting others) Its so frustrating to see how great this team can be..our defensive and Special Teams are there...our Offense is WAAAAAAY behind.

Bulldog76
08-14-2008, 05:38 PM
I hate rating drafts and here is why:

JA drafted guys the team needed in early rounds and he didn't really reach for them. I mean he could have had Boller, but he traded down and took Grossman. For all of his crap, Rexy still took the Bears to the SB. No one was predicting Benson or Haynes to be busts. He didn't really reach on them, they just never made the transition. And you can't fault JA for guys being injured, like Columbo, Bradley, and now Williams. That stuff happens. So that isn't on JA in my book.

Actually, several scouts had questioned Benson's heart...none more visibly than Mike Mayock...It was also public record that Benson had been arrested for marijuana possssion as well, and with the whole Ricky Williams saga at peak height during this time frame, most teams would have backed away...

Furthermore, Mayock declared a week before the draft that Chris Williams was off some team's boards because of his health concerns...Carolina was the team he specifically mentioned on draft day, and they went down the board and took Otah as a result...

So maybe, some people were aware of these problems in advance...And without a doubt it is the job of the GM and his staff to find these things out.

freaknasty23
08-14-2008, 06:54 PM
if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas.

sure he could of done better buts doing nothign for us to piss and moan about it. im unhappy with some of his picks as well but its time to move on and see the future not dwell on the past man...

cambovenzi
08-14-2008, 07:02 PM
bottom line is i think hes done a very nice job overall.
plenty of great later picks, and early picks, make up for a few busts.

dyceman
08-14-2008, 09:47 PM
For the record, Sooper and I agreed on a subject...we both gave him a C...

I hate Angelo's offensive drafts...

St. Clair- Free Agent
Balough - Undrafted Free Agent
Beekman - Draft
Reed - Draft
Kreutz - Hatley Pick
Garza - Free Agent
Tait - Free Agent
Clark - Free Agent
Olsen - Draft
Booker - Free Agent
Lloyd - Free Agent
Hester - Draft
Bradley - Draft
8/18 - Draft
Forte - Draft
AP - Draft
KJ - Free Agent
Wolfe - Draft

Seriously, that is a lot of free agents to have on one side of the ball because you have missed so many times in the draft...and outside of Tait, I can't think of one high level free agent that signed in this group...the vast majority are re-treds, second day picks or underacheivers...

Bulldog, great post, but I give him a C-. I can't wait till he leaves/fired.

Sox71
08-14-2008, 09:57 PM
Failing on Benson is reason enough for a low grade, that was the fourth overall pick and he was not worth it. Also, the Michael Haynes pick, we took the 7th D-lineman overall with the 13th pick, what an overdraft.

toovey107
08-14-2008, 10:26 PM
let someone else pick in the first round
and than bring in angelo to pick the rest

you cant ask for more , in the mid to later rounds

WindyCitySox
08-14-2008, 11:23 PM
Offensive Bonehead
Defensive kinda-Guru

cambovenzi
08-14-2008, 11:50 PM
Offensive Bonehead
Defensive kinda-Guru

he never really drafted offensively, other than this past year or so.
williams and forte. and olsen last year.
but other than the occasional benson+columbo(how many years ago), its just about all defense early.

but the majority of the picks are defensive, so naturally the best players will be on defense.

azbearfan
08-15-2008, 12:18 AM
I hate rating drafts and here is why:

JA drafted guys the team needed in early rounds and he didn't really reach for them. I mean he could have had Boller, but he traded down and took Grossman. For all of his crap, Rexy still took the Bears to the SB. No one was predicting Benson or Haynes to be busts. He didn't really reach on them, they just never made the transition. And you can't fault JA for guys being injured, like Columbo, Bradley, and now Williams. That stuff happens. So that isn't on JA in my book.

Sure, JA has reached on guys like Bazuin and Wolfe. But he has also drafted guys like Brown, Anderson, and Vasher in mid rounds and those are huge steals. I will admit that JA has a risky draft style in that he seems to love D-2A players and some of those guys will bust.

I think my point is that just becuase the class was bad doesn't mean it is entirely JA's fault. Tank being a tool isn't JA's fault. Injuries aren't his fault. And not every guy can pan out to be great, either. I will admit his has had very limited success in early rounds, but he has really racked in the middle rounds over the years.


The Coach makes some sense.

Overall, there are quite a few GMs around the NFL that suck alot worse then JA. Just look at some of the other teams.........the CARDS? How many top 10 picks do they need? The LIONS, where do you start? I could go on but you get my point, don't you?
JA has bombed on offense but doubled up on defense. What I mean by that is he picked Grossman, Benson, ect. when he needed them. I KNOW, NOT A PRETTY SIGHT! MAYBE Rex will learn NOT to fall down and fumble the ball. :mad:
Defense wins championships. Period. He has built a defensive unit that is in the tops of the NFL, we score most of our points with this group, last year was a fluke, injuries hurt us.....we can't control that.
JA needs to learn how/when to pick offensive players............and some luck.
I give JA a B. Lovie has done very well with what he has. Playoffs, the Super Bowl........yeah, I wish Grossman and our D would have shown up and played......but what the hell, we were in the big game.

azbearfan
08-15-2008, 12:42 AM
if ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas.

Great quote......


Actually, several scouts had questioned Benson's heart...none more visibly than Mike Mayock...It was also public record that Benson had been arrested for marijuana possssion as well, and with the whole Ricky Williams saga at peak height during this time frame, most teams would have backed away...


The only thing bad about that situation is that he was caught. I bet there are more pot smokers in the NFL then you think........not the Cheech and Chong type.........people who use once in a while after the season for just the heck of it.

The General
08-15-2008, 01:04 AM
Overall, there are quite a few GMs around the NFL that suck alot worse then JA. Just look at some of the other teams.........the CARDS? How many top 10 picks do they need? The LIONS, where do you start? I could go on but you get my point, don't you?
We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to the Lions and Cards, we should be striving toward excelence and comparing ourselves to the Pats and Colts. Sure, it would be a lot easier to say last year was a fluke and JA is an excelent GM, but in reality, we're a bad team carried on the shoulders of an aging defense and a special teamer. JA is a terrible GM, and any success this team has/ will have is in spite of him.



Lovie has done very well with what he has. Playoffs, the Super Bowl........yeah, I wish Grossman and our D would have shown up and played......but what the hell, we were in the big game.

Maybe just getting to the superbowl is fine for you, but getting there and losing is unexceptable. The only thing Lovie did was implement the Tampa 2 here in Chicago. He's a defensive coach and understands defense more then offense. Which puts our offensive struggles squarely on Ron Turner (and the idiot who hired him). Lovie isn't a great Coach, he's a great defensive coordinator (along with his sock puppet Babich). The offense was blindly entrusted to JA and Turner, who have horribly failed time after time. It's time for Ted Phillips to do his job and find a suitable replacement for JA and Turner, before the McCaskeys finds a replacement for him.

C-

BEARCUB76
08-15-2008, 01:33 AM
cant pick an oline men for his life or a good qb..
as for the defense i think he does a great job.

he always fails to make an impact in free agency always goes for the aging vet who is on the decline.

Killebrewcrew3
08-15-2008, 03:05 AM
not that it really matters but i dont think you can call Bobby Wade a bust. hes still in the league and is producing pretty nicely for a 4th rounder

azbearfan
08-15-2008, 09:08 AM
We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to the Lions and Cards, we should be striving toward excelence and comparing ourselves to the Pats and Colts. Sure, it would be a lot easier to say last year was a fluke and JA is an excelent GM, but in reality, we're a bad team carried on the shoulders of an aging defense and a special teamer. JA is a terrible GM, and any success this team has/ will have is in spite of him.



Maybe just getting to the superbowl is fine for you, but getting there and losing is unexceptable. The only thing Lovie did was implement the Tampa 2 here in Chicago. He's a defensive coach and understands defense more then offense. Which puts our offensive struggles squarely on Ron Turner (and the idiot who hired him). Lovie isn't a great Coach, he's a great defensive coordinator (along with his sock puppet Babich). The offense was blindly entrusted to JA and Turner, who have horribly failed time after time. It's time for Ted Phillips to do just his job and find a suitable replacement for JA and Turner, before the McCaskeys finds a replacement for him.

C-


I don't want to be in the class of losers, i'm just saying that JA has done better then others, and no, just getting to the SB isn't ok either, back to my point that we could be worse.
??

Bulldog76
08-15-2008, 09:38 AM
Cambo-

How does a GM only draft one side of the ball and get a passing grade? He had offensive drafts before last year...Remember the Benson, Bradley, Orton, Currie draft...none of those guys are going to be a starter for us this season! NONE

If you only draft one side of the ball, shouldn't that side of the ball be good? I mean you are doubling your opportunity to "hit" on a player at a position.

The simple fact is that he did not draft an offensive lineman or wide receiver the previous few years even though we had glaring holes along those depth charts, screams to me that he is incompetant of building a TEAM...He can build a defense...but he can't win a TEAM

NBNature3
08-15-2008, 09:48 AM
I think Jerry Angelo just wants to be known for finding talent late in the draft. He is more of a scout type GM. I think JA got lucky when the bears went 11-5 Lovie's second year it bought him some time. I don't think he is a good GM at all. Danieal Manning, Roosevelt Williams, Airese Curry, Marc Columbo, and Michael Haynes stand out as some of his worst picks with better players on the board. It will be interesting to see how this class works out especially with all the 7th round picks he acquired. There is a reason those guys last until the 7th round getting that many picks in that round doesn't make you a guru especially when it's highly likely those guys won't make the team.

Cub_StuckinSTL
08-15-2008, 09:49 AM
Scary thought....BD and I are on the same page. I've said before that both JA and Lovie are defensive minded people. Drafting D he gets a B+/A-. Offense is another story. Defeinatly a D. Add that with his inability to pick up the correct guys in free agency. Giving him the overall grade of around a C.

I guess the only disagreement I would have in the main argument of this thread is how he drafts a lot of defensive players. But to be honest later in the drafts I'm ok with adding a little depth to our team in those areas. Using the proper rotations helps to keep our guys fresh.

Bulldog76
08-15-2008, 11:03 AM
^agreed, but Angelo seems to be drafting for depth earlier in the draft than he should...For example, in 2007 he spent a 7th round pick on Aaron Brandt, an offensive tackle from Iowa State, which most teams didn't have on their board...Fine, its a seventh round pick, no big deal if he doesn't pan out...but we could have picked up a tackle at the end of round 2 (James Marten, BC or Ryan Harris, ND) instead of Bazuin...in the 7th round we could have picked up Keyunta Dawson from Tex. Tech...or drafted a DE before than if we found this to be a pressing need for the team (which we shouldn't)...

IF we are looking for depth...than we need to use the picks at the back of the draft for depth...

IF we are looking for contributors or developmental players...we need to use the middle rounds

IF we are looking for impact players or playmakers, we need to hit at the front of the draft...

Its a very basic philosophy, but one that we have almost upside down...

cambovenzi
08-15-2008, 11:21 AM
^agreed, but Angelo seems to be drafting for depth earlier in the draft than he should...For example, in 2007 he spent a 7th round pick on Aaron Brandt, an offensive tackle from Iowa State, which most teams didn't have on their board...Fine, its a seventh round pick, no big deal if he doesn't pan out...but we could have picked up a tackle at the end of round 2 (James Marten, BC or Ryan Harris, ND) instead of Bazuin...in the 7th round we could have picked up Keyunta Dawson from Tex. Tech...or drafted a DE before than if we found this to be a pressing need for the team (which we shouldn't)...

IF we are looking for depth...than we need to use the picks at the back of the draft for depth...then you most likely have crappy depth.
they were considering trading Alex Brown back then. but ill agree bazuin was a weird pick, we'll see how he turns out.


IF we are looking for contributors or developmental players...we need to use the middle rounds possibly, depends who and where. not a set in stone thing.


IF we are looking for impact players or playmakers, we need to hit at the front of the draft... well yeah. thatd be helpful. and we've been getting them lately.
Olsen, Tommie Harris.
he just didnt hit with benson. or columbo back in the day.

cambovenzi
08-15-2008, 11:22 AM
Cambo-

How does a GM only draft one side of the ball and get a passing grade? He had offensive drafts before last year...Remember the Benson, Bradley, Orton, Currie draft...none of those guys are going to be a starter for us this season! NONE

If you only draft one side of the ball, shouldn't that side of the ball be good? I mean you are doubling your opportunity to "hit" on a player at a position.

The simple fact is that he did not draft an offensive lineman or wide receiver the previous few years even though we had glaring holes along those depth charts, screams to me that he is incompetant of building a TEAM...He can build a defense...but he can't win a TEAM

b/c that one side of the ball is amazing.
and he really hasnt drafted all that many offensive players.
if he drafts 10 amazing defenders, and then 2 offensive guys who dont pan out, its not bad.

Cub_StuckinSTL
08-15-2008, 11:48 AM
^agreed, but Angelo seems to be drafting for depth earlier in the draft than he should...For example, in 2007 he spent a 7th round pick on Aaron Brandt, an offensive tackle from Iowa State, which most teams didn't have on their board...Fine, its a seventh round pick, no big deal if he doesn't pan out...but we could have picked up a tackle at the end of round 2 (James Marten, BC or Ryan Harris, ND) instead of Bazuin...in the 7th round we could have picked up Keyunta Dawson from Tex. Tech...or drafted a DE before than if we found this to be a pressing need for the team (which we shouldn't)...

IF we are looking for depth...than we need to use the picks at the back of the draft for depth...

IF we are looking for contributors or developmental players...we need to use the middle rounds

IF we are looking for impact players or playmakers, we need to hit at the front of the draft...

Its a very basic philosophy, but one that we have almost upside down...

The sad part is that its hard to go for big name guys early in the draft because JA doesn't have the ability to pay them the signing. I'd be interested to see how many times we've traded down picks instead of paying that signing bonus. JA is handcuffed a little by that old *** *****

Bulldog76
08-15-2008, 03:32 PM
That isn't a Virginia decision...we give her too much credit for her influence in regards to the on field product...that is a Ted Phillips call, and his only boss is Michael McCaskey (Chairman of the Board) and the various other board members that the ownership consists of...

Angelo traded down in the Haynes/Grossman draft...The D. Manning draft...Last year's draft he traded down in the second round... and in just about every other draft he has moved up and down throughout the middle rounds.

Cambo, I'm still confused...Isn't Angelo supposed to draft both offensive and defensive players?? How is he building a championship team by signing re-treds and veterans past their prime (r. brown, f. miller, m. booker, etc..)

Angelo has drafted well on defense, but again, he can not continue to be an exclusively defensive minded GM and then react when it blows up in his face...it is too little too late...that is why we have had playoff seasons followed by top 10 pick seasons...this up and down volatility from season to season is a result of JA ignoring our offensive needs...

I'm gonna start using that simpson's character name to describe you if you aren't able to acknowledge that as a significant drawback in his performance resume...

cambovenzi
08-15-2008, 03:39 PM
That isn't a Virginia decision...we give her too much credit for her influence in regards to the on field product...that is a Ted Phillips call, and his only boss is Michael McCaskey (Chairman of the Board) and the various other board members that the ownership consists of...

Angelo traded down in the Haynes/Grossman draft...The D. Manning draft...Last year's draft he traded down in the second round... and in just about every other draft he has moved up and down throughout the middle rounds.

Cambo, I'm still confused...Isn't Angelo supposed to draft both offensive and defensive players?? How is he building a championship team by signing re-treds and veterans past their prime (r. brown, f. miller, m. booker, etc..)

Angelo has drafted well on defense, but again, he can not continue to be an exclusively defensive minded GM and then react when it blows up in his face...it is too little too late...that is why we have had playoff seasons followed by top 10 pick seasons...this up and down volatility from season to season is a result of JA ignoring our offensive needs...

I'm gonna start using that simpson's character name to describe you if you aren't able to acknowledge that as a significant drawback in his performance resume...

yea i know he doesnt draft offensively well.
but IMO he has enough great defensive picks to make up for it.
as well as olsen+forte(looks good).

his offensive picks werent horrible.
just unlucky.
we needed a QB, he got grossman.
we needed a RB to eventually replace Jones, who was getting old. so he got benson, who was one of the best college backs.

nothing real great offensively, but hes not a terrible drafter overall.

Bulldog76
08-15-2008, 03:43 PM
yea i know he doesnt draft offensively well.
but IMO he has enough great defensive picks to make up for it.
as well as olsen+forte(looks good).

his offensive picks werent horrible.
just unlucky.
we needed a QB, he got grossman.
we needed a RB to eventually replace Jones, who was getting old. so he got benson, who was one of the best college backs.

nothing real great offensively, but hes not a terrible drafter overall.


Jones was under 30 when we drafted Benson...I think 27

He has drafted offensive players, they suck... Bradley, Currie, Gage, Wade, Metcalf, Orton, etc...that isn't unlucky...that's just being bad at your job... What is unlucky about these picks ??

We needed QBs, so in consecutive years he drafted Grossman, Orton, Krenzel...none of which appear to be difference makers nor consistantly mediocre...

As for Colombo...we drafted him...he got hurt...he got better...he's now a good right tackle...why didn't we keep him?? That is a GM decision...

cambovenzi
08-15-2008, 03:47 PM
Jones was under 30 when we drafted Benson...I think 27

He has drafted offensive players, they suck... Bradley, Currie, Gage, Wade, Metcalf, Orton, etc...that isn't unlucky...that's just being bad at your job... What is unlucky about these picks ??
almost all of those guys were late in the draft.
and bradley was good at times, but had injury/depth/QB sucks that threw to him issues.
RB situation wasnt handled great to say the least.


We needed QBs, so in consecutive years he drafted Grossman, Orton, Krenzel...none of which appear to be difference makers nor consistantly mediocre... well you know where i stand on grossman.
we needed a QB, so he took one in the first round.
others were late in draft for depth.


As for Colombo...we drafted him...he got hurt...he got better...he's now a good right tackle...why didn't we keep him?? That is a GM decision...
yea. ugh. but he wasnt that good with us. so cutting him was kinda understandable.

Bulldog76
08-15-2008, 04:47 PM
Cambo- I think we know how one another feels on the subject...but my closing shot will be the following...A second round pick should be able to beat out an aging vet who can't catch (moose), so depth should not be an excuse for his lack of production, especially with the core group of wr's we have had the past 3-4 years...Its not like he was playing behind TO or Randy Moss, it was Bernard Berrian and Moose Muhammad...Now both of them are gone and he still can't crack the starting lineup ahead of 32 year old Marty Booker and Brandon Lloyd...If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...odds are its a duck...

And 3rd, 4th, 5th round wide receivers are all over the league...there is no rule that says we can't get any offensive players in late rounds to contribute. If we can find a Chris Harris...we should have been able to find ONE late round talent for the offensive side of the ball by now...

The General
08-16-2008, 01:31 AM
One more thing to consider, you can't put all the blame on JA for the Bear's shoddy offensive drafts. Look at Lovie and Turner as well. The bears incompetence on offense is not only managements fault, but also coaching, and scouting. The failures on offense under this group should be unacceptable. But here we are, entering another season HOPING for the best. Someone has to be held accountable. And I point the first finger at Ron Turner. (followed closely by JA)

CubsFanBudMan74
08-16-2008, 10:33 AM
B

bearshuffle
08-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Below are the 2007 to 2002 drafts for the Pats. Compared to the Bears, the Pats have had similar results. Some studs, some busts, some role players. The bold players are guys in the current two deep or starters elsewhere.
20 out of 50 draft picks are highlighted, but yet they have found players to contribute in a major way for their playoff runs over the past six years. However, they have taken a number of RBs, WRs, and QBs that have never worked out. Of course they have Tom Brady, and Lawrence Maroney is solid, but they've tried to find value in rounds 2 - 7 at skill positions, and for the most part, have come up empty. You can't discount the fact that Tom Brady is a stud, but my point is that what have they built? A strong OL and DL.

The Bears have a fantastic DL, along with amazing LBs and solid DBs. But, offensively, the Bears have failed to build an OL with quality depth. We are either too green or quite aged. JA has done a solid job of addressing most spots and I have to say the failure of the O is due more to the OL play than any other reason. So, I'd give him a B, because he's found quality where others haven't but he has failed in providing an offensive line that is deep enough to sustain a couple of injuries and still be productive (see last year).

2007
1 Brandon Meriweather, DB
4 Kareem Brown, DT
5 Clint Oldenburg, OT
6 Justin Rogers, LB
6 Mike Richardson, DB
6 Justise Hairston, RB
6 Corey Hilliard, OT
7 Oscar Lua, LB
7 Mike Elgin, OG

2006

1 Laurence Maroney, RB
2 Chad Jackson, WR
3 Dave Thomas, TE
4 Garrett Mills, RB
4 Stephen Gostkowski, K
5 Ryan O'Callaghan, OT
6 Jeremy Mincey, LB
6 Dan Stevenson, OG
6 LeKevin Smith, DT
7 Willie Andrews, DB

2005

1 Logan Mankins, OG
3 Ellis Hobbs, DB
3 Nick Kaczur, OT
4 James Sanders, DB
5 Ryan Claridge, LB
7 Matt Cassel, QB
7 Andy Stokes, TE

2004
1 Vince Wilfork, DT
1 Ben Watson, TE
2 Marquise Hill, DE
3 Guss Scott, DB
4 Dexter Reid, DB
4 Cedric Cobbs, RB
5 P.K. Sam, WR
7 Christian Morton, DB

2003
1 Ty Warren, DT
2 Eugene Wilson, DB
2 Bethel Johnson, WR
4 Dan Klecko, DT
4 Asante Samuel, DB
5 Dan Koppen, C
6 Kliff Kingsbury, QB
7 Spencer Nead, TE
7 Tully Banta-Cain, LB
7 Ethan Kelley, DT

2002
1 Daniel Graham, TE
2 Deion Branch, WR
4 Rohan Davey, QB
4 Jarvis Green, DE
7 Antwoine Womack, RB
7 David Givens, WR

jaycruz92
08-16-2008, 03:02 PM
i voted C because we havent had much success in the first two rounds, the first especially, Benson phhhh, but i think forte will be a solid back and who knows about chris williams we'll have to wait till he plays. but i think earl bennet should be a nice wr option and harrison the DE, and the saftey from LSU are going to contribute alot this year. and i think last years pick i gregg olson is going to be a huge part of our team especially since clark is getting older

jaycruz92
08-16-2008, 03:23 PM
heres a dumb but creative idea trade our first pick because its ussualy a dud for an impact player or for someones like 3rd and 4th picks with maybe like a 6th

CT Bears Fan
08-17-2008, 09:08 AM
He's gonna get a better grade from me pretty soon as K. Davis looks like the steal of the draft. Too bad that was already our strongest position though.

VJ18
08-17-2008, 11:53 AM
Defense = monster guru

Offense = MAJOR bonehead!


Dumbest move of all time was drafting benson and giving up Thomas Jones for hothing... thats boneheaded.... its about time the Bears accept their fate and truely move to a throwing offense like the rest of the league... games are won with high scores and throwing...

Bulldog76
09-02-2008, 02:00 PM
We can add Dan Bazuin and Michael Okwo to the bonehead move list...

Bulldog76
09-02-2008, 02:27 PM
Hmmm let's see:

1st Round Picks:
Colombo (D); Haynes (D); Grossman (C+); Harris (A); Benson (D); Olsen (B)... GPA: 2.08 = C-
2nd Round Picks:
R. Williams (F); C. Tillman (A); Tank (D+); Bradley (D); D. Manning (C-); D. Hester (A-); Dan Bazuin (F)...GPA: 1.71 = D+
3rd Round Picks:
T. Metcalf (D+); L. Briggs (A); B. Berrian (C+); D. Dvoracek (D); G. Wolfe (D); Michael Okwo (F)...GPA: 1.75 = D+
4th Round Picks:
Alex Brown (A); T. Johnson (C); I. Scott (B); N. Vasher (A); L. Joe (D); K. Orton (C); J. Williams (C)...GPA: 2.83 B-
5th Round Picks:
B. Gray (C) B. Knight (F); J. Gage (C); B. Wade (D); T. LaFavor (F); C. Krenzel (F); C. Harriott (F); A. Currie (F); M. Anderson (A-); K. Payne (B); C. Graham (C)...GPA: 1.25 D
6th Round Picks
A. Peterson (A-); J. Elliott (D); B. Fletcher (D); J. Odom (C-); B. Forsey (D); C. Harris (A); JD Runnels (F); T. Reed (D-)...GPA 1.71 D+
7th Round Picks
B. Anderson (F); A. Marshall (D); R. Wilson (B); T. McBride (B); A. Brant (F)...GPA 1.4 D

Now I bumped some grades up because they were late round picks and dropped some grades down because they were higher picks...and the cumulative GPA for Jerry Angelo's draft picks to this point is a disappointing 1.81 or a C- / D+

His best round is unquestionably the 4th round and his worst round is the 5th round; although his first round grade of C- should also be noted in this equation as he has missed on more picks than he has hit on...and his second round would be a total disaster if not for Devin Hester and Charles Tillman

Coach100
09-02-2008, 03:09 PM
Bulldog, I am not sure how you decided to rate I. Scott a "B" and T. Johnson a "C"? Johnsosn was clearly the better player, even with off the field issues.

And if Scott gets a "B" and Gage gets a "C", how does Berrian get a "C+"? Even if he was the higher draft pick, he was also the Bears #1 for 2 years. Gage didn't do crap for the Bears.

And if you are basing Gage as a "C" because he has produced more for Tenn, than Columbo is way better than a "D".

And if Grossman gets a "C+" in the 1st round, how does Orton (who took his job and has comparable stats) get a "C" in the 4th round? I thought you said round drafted was factored into the grade; so how can a comparable player drafted 3 rounds after another player get a lower grade?

Gray a "C" and Payne a "B"? What has Payne done to earn a "B"? I mean really, on the filed, what has he done?

These rankings are far too bias and uneven to put any stock into. I get that JA has made dumb picks; no arguing that. No need for these grades/rankings to show people. Especially when there is no concrete way to determine the grades. It results in far too many inconsistencies.

cambovenzi
09-02-2008, 03:22 PM
Hmmm let's see:

1st Round Picks:
Colombo (D); Haynes (D); Grossman (C+); Harris (A); Benson (D); Olsen (B)... GPA: 2.08 = C-
2nd Round Picks:
R. Williams (F); C. Tillman (A); Tank (D+); Bradley (D); D. Manning (C-); D. Hester (A-); Dan Bazuin (F)...GPA: 1.71 = D+
3rd Round Picks:
T. Metcalf (D+); L. Briggs (A); B. Berrian (C+); D. Dvoracek (D); G. Wolfe (D); Michael Okwo (F)...GPA: 1.75 = D+
4th Round Picks:
Alex Brown (A); T. Johnson (C); I. Scott (B); N. Vasher (A); L. Joe (D); K. Orton (C); J. Williams (C)...GPA: 2.83 B-
5th Round Picks:
B. Gray (C) B. Knight (F); J. Gage (C); B. Wade (D); T. LaFavor (F); C. Krenzel (F); C. Harriott (F); A. Currie (F); M. Anderson (A-); K. Payne (B); C. Graham (C)...GPA: 1.25 D
6th Round Picks
A. Peterson (A-); J. Elliott (D); B. Fletcher (D); J. Odom (C-); B. Forsey (D); C. Harris (A); JD Runnels (F); T. Reed (D-)...GPA 1.71 D+
7th Round Picks
B. Anderson (F); A. Marshall (D); R. Wilson (B); T. McBride (B); A. Brant (F)...GPA 1.4 D

Now I bumped some grades up because they were late round picks and dropped some grades down because they were higher picks...and the cumulative GPA for Jerry Angelo's draft picks to this point is a disappointing 1.81 or a C- / D+

His best round is unquestionably the 4th round and his worst round is the 5th round; although his first round grade of C- should also be noted in this equation as he has missed on more picks than he has hit on...and his second round would be a total disaster if not for Devin Hester and Charles Tillman

some i agree with.
some arent close.
berrian in the third was a very nice pick. not C+.
hester A-? ehh.
also dusty D could turn out very good. not a D in the third round.
metcalf has been a solid backup for years. not horrible pick.
our starting QB in the 4th round is a nice pickup, even tho he isnt great, hes done more than most 4th round QBs.

getting anything good in the 7th is a big plus.
rod wilson, mcbride, harris, reed are all very good picks in the 6th and 7th.

your grades are meant to say that he is horrible, but the majority of everyones draft picks arent great.

mwoodri
09-02-2008, 05:29 PM
Just cut Zachary Bowman, the guy we passed on Roy Schuening for. Meanwhile Wolfe, inexplicably, is still on the team...

azbearfan
09-02-2008, 06:03 PM
Just cut Zachary Bowman, the guy we passed on Roy Schuening for. Meanwhile Wolfe, inexplicably, is still on the team...

I know..........it's just plain crazy.

cambovenzi
09-02-2008, 07:40 PM
wolfe looked pretty good in the preseason..
he didnt know williams was going to get injured, so now we need a lineman.
bowman isnt a big loss, the OL helps. we have like 5 guys ahead of him at CB now.

Bulldog76
09-03-2008, 10:12 AM
cambo, i think you just illustrated our point...we drafted a guy that we didn't need because we had graham/mcbride/manning jr./ d. manning/ vasher / tillman...drafting bowman was a bad pick because we had more pressing needs that needed to be addressed before the seventh round...AND we just signed tillman/vasher to long term extensions...so why the need for a 6th corner???

that has been one of the major problems with angelo, he doesn't address the team needs in the draft...he just stockpiles defensive players...and then he resigns our defensive players to long term deals and these draft picks spend their career on the bench and are let go at the end of their deal without ever really contributing...

Bulldog76
09-03-2008, 10:22 AM
Bulldog, I am not sure how you decided to rate I. Scott a "B" and T. Johnson a "C"? Johnsosn was clearly the better player, even with off the field issues. Ian Scott started ahead of Tank when they were both on the roster and healthy, tank was suspended and ultimately dismissed from the team...not sure if that earns him any 'extra credit'

And if Scott gets a "B" and Gage gets a "C", how does Berrian get a "C+"? Even if he was the higher draft pick, he was also the Bears #1 for 2 years. Gage didn't do crap for the Bears. Berrian got a C+ because of his injury problems, but I will bump him up to a B; I gave Gage a C because of the round he was drafted in...He may have been a C-/D+ player, but as draft picks go, he contributed more than a typical 4th rounder would

And if you are basing Gage as a "C" because he has produced more for Tenn, than Columbo is way better than a "D". No, I gave Colombo a D, because he did start half a season for us and I can't punish the draft choice too much because of injury...I gave JA a bit of credit for Colombo's ability before the injury...it wouldn't be fair to give him an outright F on the pick; Gage's C was explained above

And if Grossman gets a "C+" in the 1st round, how does Orton (who took his job and has comparable stats) get a "C" in the 4th round? I thought you said round drafted was factored into the grade; so how can a comparable player drafted 3 rounds after another player get a lower grade?Until Orton starts in the super bowl, Grossman has outplayed him...Orton gets a C because of his rookie season, but he hasn't really played any significant time since then, and we will have to see how this season plays out before I can alter his grade positively or negatively

Gray a "C" and Payne a "B"? What has Payne done to earn a "B"? I mean really, on the filed, what has he done?What did Bobby Gray do? Payne was a special teams contributor and has been named the starter heading into his second season, he was also a late round pick which bumped his grade a bit...maybe a bit inflated, but if I'm being too generous to JA, than take that into consideration when looking at his overall draft grade

These rankings are far too bias and uneven to put any stock into. I get that JA has made dumb picks; no arguing that. No need for these grades/rankings to show people. Especially when there is no concrete way to determine the grades. It results in far too many inconsistencies.

I know this is a subjective review, its almost impossible to come up with a concrete grading system for players, but if those are your only objections, feel free to alter the grades and come up with your own GPA...

F= 0 D- =.75 D=1 D+ =1.5
C- = 1.75 C= 2 C+ = 2.5
B- = 2.75 B = 3 B+ = 3.5
A- = 3.75 A = 4 A+ = 4.25

Bulldog76
09-03-2008, 10:53 AM
Let's just start the evaluations on the most recent class...

Chris Williams... Injured...
Matt Forte... Starter
Earl Bennett...Rotation guy
Marcus Harrison...Rotation guy
Craig Steltz...5th safety / special teamer
Zack Bowman...released
Kellen Davis...3rd TE, but I like him a lot
Ervin Baldwin...released
Chester Adams...released
Joey LaRocque...released
Kirk Barton...backup RT
Marcus Monk...released

That makes 5 draft picks from this class that have been released before the first game...yuck!

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 01:07 PM
Let's just start the evaluations on the most recent class...

Chris Williams... Injured...
Matt Forte... Starter
Earl Bennett...Rotation guy
Marcus Harrison...Rotation guy
Craig Steltz...5th safety / special teamer
Zack Bowman...released
Kellen Davis...3rd TE, but I like him a lot
Ervin Baldwin...released
Chester Adams...released
Joey LaRocque...released
Kirk Barton...backup RT
Marcus Monk...released

That makes 5 draft picks from this class that have been released before the first game...yuck!
ill quote something i just posted

they are almost all 7th round picks that were cut.
not a big deal at all.
i think he did a very good job this draft.
OLineman we needed in the first.
RB we needed in the 2nd.
WR in the 3rd.
a goodlooking safety in the 4th.
bowman got cut b/c we brought in more help for the Oline. something we needed to do.
and then K davis in the 5th also looks really good.

not a big deal at all that very late round picks get cut.
it is a very good looking draft we had.

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 01:13 PM
cambo, i think you just illustrated our point...we drafted a guy that we didn't need because we had graham/mcbride/manning jr./ d. manning/ vasher / tillman...drafting bowman was a bad pick because we had more pressing needs that needed to be addressed before the seventh round...AND we just signed tillman/vasher to long term extensions...so why the need for a 6th corner???

that has been one of the major problems with angelo, he doesn't address the team needs in the draft...he just stockpiles defensive players...and then he resigns our defensive players to long term deals and these draft picks spend their career on the bench and are let go at the end of their deal without ever really contributing...

they werent sure how everything would work out.
w/ Dmanning maybe switching, or not.

he was picked over manning jr to make the team, so idk how he can be on your list. he would be the 5th corner, if they didn't end up switching these safeties to CB/nickel back. and who knows, he could have done better and overtook mcbride, or graham.
but something came up, they needed to add Oline help, and they had switched one or more safeties to CB, so a late round CB was expendable.

mwoodri
09-03-2008, 02:34 PM
they werent sure how everything would work out.
w/ Dmanning maybe switching, or not.

he was picked over manning jr to make the team, so idk how he can be on your list. he would be the 5th corner, if they didn't end up switching these safeties to CB/nickel back. and who knows, he could have done better and overtook mcbride, or graham.
but something came up, they needed to add Oline help, and they had switched one or more safeties to CB, so a late round CB was expendable.

We needed O-line help during the draft and passed on Roy Schuening for frickin Zachary Bowman. We take a cb who is/was 6th on the depth chart when we didn't even have 6 quality offensive lineman and have an All-American OG/T handed to us on a platter in the 5th round. There is no way to rationalize this other than just plain ignorance.

Bulldog76
09-03-2008, 04:03 PM
^ Bingo !

But you will never hear Cambo say a harsh word about JA... He defended the Bazuin pick until he was released, thinks tha Okwo was an insurance pick for Briggs, thinks Bowman was insurance for D. Manning, thinks Metcalf is a solid player and that passing on potential starters for potential backups is a good strategy because we can sign free agents for those spots, even though he is quick to point out that our ownership/gm is too cheap to sign any young promising free agents because we can get guys like Fred Miller on the cheap...

Am I putting any words in your mouth there Cambo? Because I have the posts to copy and paste to support everyone one of those statements...

cambovenzi
09-03-2008, 05:31 PM
^ Bingo !

But you will never hear Cambo say a harsh word about JA... He defended the Bazuin pick until he was released, thinks tha Okwo was an insurance pick for Briggs, thinks Bowman was insurance for D. Manning, thinks Metcalf is a solid player and that passing on potential starters for potential backups is a good strategy because we can sign free agents for those spots, even though he is quick to point out that our ownership/gm is too cheap to sign any young promising free agents because we can get guys like Fred Miller on the cheap...

Am I putting any words in your mouth there Cambo? Because I have the posts to copy and paste to support everyone one of those statements...

okwo WAS an insurance pick for briggs...
bowman would have made the team if not for Cwill going down, and us adding this new Olineman guy. he was also made expendable by payne stepping up at safety, so mcgowan and/or manning will be moved to corner.
and potentially could have outplayed and overtook some other guys.
its this thing called depth, and competition to make sure you have good starters and backups.


you really like to make things up.
when did i say metcalf was good?
and i never said anything about passing potential starters for backups is a good strategy. you mean Okwo? yeah, taking a LB was a good move, b/c it looked like briggs wasnt coming back.

in hindsight, you can look at things that didnt work out an complain.
but there was a perfectly logical reason to why most things happened.

Bulldog76
09-04-2008, 09:23 AM
First off, Buenning is a guard, it has nothing to do with an injury to our offensive tackle...it is more a statement about the lack of confidence in Beekman and Metcrap...

If Okwo was an insurance pick for Briggs' departure, I'm confused as to what Jamar Williams was then...because I thought he was insurance drafted the year before Okwo...And it still doesn't fix the biggest problem with Okwo...a lack of talent...

And I'm confused, if you didn't defend/support the idea of drafting Bazuin/Okwo/Bowman/Wolfe as backups or as you put it insurance policies to events that never happened...Because I always thought you should draft by positional need, not depth.

And the perfectly logical reason for drafting a 5th LB (Okwo), 5th DE (Bazuin), 4th RB (Wolfe), 6th CB (Bowman), 6th DE (Baldwin), 7th LB (LaRocque) from the last two drafts...and you can say all you want that the seventh round picks didn't hurt us, but when you consider how thin we are across the offensive line and wide receiver I can't understand why we would pickup those players...they had no real chance of making an impact on the team... I mean we are talking about picks in the 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 7th rounds where we had chances to pick players who would have filled needs at the top of the roster not the bottom...How can you ignore that? It was an error in judgement in the most critical area of building/developing our roster.

And I'm gonna dig up your old posts and throw them in front of everyone now.

cambovenzi
09-04-2008, 03:24 PM
First off, Buenning is a guard, it has nothing to do with an injury to our offensive tackle...it is more a statement about the lack of confidence in Beekman and Metcrap...

If Okwo was an insurance pick for Briggs' departure, I'm confused as to what Jamar Williams was then...because I thought he was insurance drafted the year before Okwo...And it still doesn't fix the biggest problem with Okwo...a lack of talent...

And I'm confused, if you didn't defend/support the idea of drafting Bazuin/Okwo/Bowman/Wolfe as backups or as you put it insurance policies to events that never happened...Because I always thought you should draft by positional need, not depth.

And the perfectly logical reason for drafting a 5th LB (Okwo), 5th DE (Bazuin), 4th RB (Wolfe), 6th CB (Bowman), 6th DE (Baldwin), 7th LB (LaRocque) from the last two drafts...and you can say all you want that the seventh round picks didn't hurt us, but when you consider how thin we are across the offensive line and wide receiver I can't understand why we would pickup those players...they had no real chance of making an impact on the team... I mean we are talking about picks in the 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 7th rounds where we had chances to pick players who would have filled needs at the top of the roster not the bottom...How can you ignore that? It was an error in judgement in the most critical area of building/developing our roster.

And I'm gonna dig up your old posts and throw them in front of everyone now.
so we should only have 1 decent WLB?
no, he drafted okwo for some depth at the position, and in the then likely event that briggs didnt come back, they could battle for the position for future years.

so there is no need for depth?
yes, their was...
and its not all about starting needs.
if you like a player, and he thinks hes gonna be good, then you can take shots like that sometimes.
and they can battle it out for spots, and bring depth to positions that need it.

yeah, cutting your 2nd and 3rd round picks from a year ago isnt good.
and ive told you the reason why they were drafted many times, but they got hurt, and didnt work out, as well as briggs and brown still being on the team.

i still cant believe you are complaining about some of the late rounders that didnt make the team.

okwo would have been the 2nd string WLB, or 1st string if he ended up beating out jamar williams, b/c briggs was supposedly leaving.

bowman basically made the team, not the 6th corner throughout camp, but we needed Oline help, and the safeties moved to corner.

6th and 7th rounders barely ever make teams.
and some of them DID make the team.
you take flyers on people who might have some potential and skill.
some work out, no loss if they dont.