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Eicholtz
08-13-2008, 11:18 AM
PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING and more pitching.

There is no other area in need as much as the pitching. Teixeira is a popular pick but that is a want and not a need. There may be a hole at first. Here is your answer if Huff isn't traded he can go to first, Luke can DH and one of the youngsters in LF possibly Reimold or Montanez if he plays defense properly. Do you really think Teixeira wants to come here with the arms we have? 1st base becomes an issue once they figure out what they will do with Millar but that is not the biggest priority regardless of what they do.

There has always been talk of Mark wanting to come home and blah, blah, blah. While that's really heartwarming it's not going to happen.....UNLESS they back the truck up and unload major dough on him and he turns out to be in it for just the moolah and not winning. Personally I don't want him here if it costs the price thats floating around. That money that should be invested in pitching but we know the philosophy of Peter Angelos when it comes to pitching. Which brings me to my next topic.

-Starting Pitching

If they want to act on a rumor of a player that wants to come to Baltimore they should see about AJ Burnett. I know he hasn't been the most consistent over the years BUT who would you rather AJ Burnett or Dennis Sarfate starting a game for you. Thank You. We need some vets to hold down the rotation until the young guys in Double AA are ready to come in and pitch. None named Traschel please. i don't want to see the guys rushed and ruined. I would like to see basically the rotation in Bowie pitch well in AAA before any of them come up. Also we have the gem of the Tejeda deal Troy Patton coming off injury. So let's see what he can do too.

-Shortstop

As far as SS yeah a great hitter would be nice BUT I want someone who can make the plays. This pitching staff needs defensive help. The team is going to hit regardless of who is playing SS. So for the mean time before that "great" SS comes along I will be happy with a light hitting Juan Castro because he can make all the plays. Yes he is a light hitting SS but tell me right now who else in the organization would you want? But a good all around player would be nice to finally settle that position once and for all.

These are my opinions but who knows whats really gonna happen.

bshone
08-13-2008, 12:36 PM
Generally speaking, I'm in complete disagreement for several reasons.

First of all, who cares about the cost of getting Teixeira, especially when it's not coming directly out of your wallet.

Secondly, signing Teixeira could bring several other benefits - such as the possiblity of signing other players to long term contracts (Roberts in particular). In addition, you might attract some pitchers that would otherwise ignore the O's.

Third, do you really want the O's to go after a free agent veteran pitcher? Do you look back and wish we were able to land Burnett or Pavano? I sure don't - I'm glad that we didn't win those sweepstakes because neither of those two guys are any better than what we've had pitching. Also, remember Kris Benson? He didn't work out too well for us either.

Fourth, we have pitching prospects - a ton of them. They shouldn't be rushed up, but it's not like they're 4-5 years away from hitting the majors. At this stage, Guthrie and Cabrera would like start for just about any major league team. After that, there are a ton of guys who will get chances over the next few seasons.

Fifth, I'd rather sign Teixeira and make him part of the long term plan than just assume that we can continue to get by in the future with an aging Melvin Mora at 3B, five different shortstops each season batting a combined .200, an unknown at 2B (Roberts could be gone regardless of whether we land Teixeira, although by getting Teixeira it increases our likelihood of signing Roberts), and an unknown at 1B (even Huff is only signed through the 2009 season). As a GM, you can't let everyone's contract run up after next year (2009) and expect to sign an entire team's worth of free agents. With Millar's contract running up, we absolutely have to sign a free agent 1B this offseason, even if he plays 2nd string to Huff.

Sixth, Teixeira plays tremendous defense.

Seventh, Teixeira is a switch-hitter. Imagine facing two swith-hitters in the first three or four spots in the O's lineup (Roberts and Teixeira). They would play 155 games a year with high averages against both RHP and LHP, something the O's have not been consistent with over the past several years.

Eighth, when will the O's ever have even the slightest chance to land a player like Teixeira in his prime? The O's have a card in their hand that no other team in the majors has - and it's Teixeira's hometown of Baltimore. All else constant (salary, chance to win a ring), he would like to play in Baltimore. If MacPhail can convince him that he's part of the winning trend in Baltimore, including the possibility of a few runs at the pennant over the next decade (which is MacPhail's job to do - whether he can sell that or not is unknown at this point) then we should take this chance and run with it.

Ninth, you mention the idea of Huff at 1B, Scott DH, and a prospect in the OF. What about Teixeira at 1B, Huff DH, and Scott in the OF? Is that worse? If so, you're basically saying one of our prospects is better than Teixeira, which I find hard to believe.

Tenth, just imagine this future lineup:

Roberts (2B)
Jones (CF)
Markakis (RF)
Teixeira (1B)
Huff (DH)
Weiters (C)
Scott (LF)
Mora (3B)
Unknown (SS)

With the abundance of pitching prospects we have in the minors, we could certainly develop a contending team - even in the AL east.

Eicholtz
08-13-2008, 04:34 PM
First things first..NO $h!+ it's not my money. When did I say it was...

It makes no difference who is hitting if you have no pitching. You even said the young guys aren't ready. What are they supposed to do in the mean time? More OJT in the majors for the young pitchers because they pitched well in Bowie? Not a good idea but you are the expert. Uh wait...no your not. You are just a mark for Teixeira.

So from what I read you would be happy if they just signed Teixiera and did nothing else. Is that the message you are trying to convey? Thank God you are not the GM,VP or whatever it's called this week. We would end up being Rangers east if you were in charge. It would be some lineup but while we score eight or seven a night we would lose by 8 or 7 oops wait that's what happening now. See we don't need him for that were doing it now ha ha.
If he signed here...great. I would be happy watching all the runs score and having the hometown boy...home.

If nothing is done about stabilizing the pitching staff until the young guys are ready then the Orioles are going to be hurting. This is the best collection of young guys the Orioles have had at once that I can ever remember. That excites me more than any free agent sigining. So my main thing is I don't want to see them ruined by being rushed. I am more excited about Wieters and his potential the possiblities of getting Teixeira at least one of those expectations are realistic.

Bottom line is this if they got him great but before or after they do they need some pitching like everyone else needs. They are not going to win more than they lose with a rotation of

Guthrie - the only constant in the rotation

Cabrera - consistantly inconsistant also if he is your number two your in trouble

Olson - I don't want to see this happen to anymore young guys.

Sarfate - Needs to go back to the pen and hopefully will this week.

Waters - Just filling in and trying to make the most of his oppertunity. So who knows what's in store for this guy.

I love the Orioles and want to see them succeed. With that said besides Mark being the hometown boy and loads of $$$$. What other incentive does he have to come here? He will put more butts in the seats but does that matter to him not nearly as much as it does to the warehouse.

Can you tell me next year's rotation besides Guthrie has opening day followed by Cabrera. Neither can the Orioles. How are they going to convince him to sign here besides the reasons I mentioned?

If his love for Charm City is that strong it will be a great summer and welcome home wooo hooo. But I am not sure how a rebuilding process is going to sound to him. Especially if the Angels win the World Series.

Everyone that wants him better hope the Angels have an early exit in the playoffs or some kind of falling out. Because if they win he doesn't sign here. I see him using the Orioles like many guys have used the Orioles to drive the price up just to sign else where i.e Vlad. I don't think he is going resign any time soon. He has said he wants to find out what's out there and he will. If he resigns with the Angels it will only be after some big game fishing.

In closing the Orioles could have won a lot more games this year with better pitching. If the Orioles could somehow get a solid pitcher or two for the rotation and the pen and play good defense they could win more games next year without Teixeira. They have won more games this year then people thought they would already.

Tell me this when you score seven runs and lose by eight what's the problem?

bshone
08-13-2008, 09:38 PM
First things first..NO $h!+ it's not my money. When did I say it was...

You didnt say that it was your money, but you did say Personally I don't want him here if it costs the price thats floating around. My only point by saying that was that costs shouldnt be as important to fans in baseball, especially with no salary cap. In fact, most fans complain more about their teams front office not going out to get top prospects than they do complaining about ticket prices. Thats not to say you are one of those people, but still youre not writing a check for Teixeira, so your argument that hes not worth the cost doesnt seem like a big deal from the fan standpoint.

It makes no difference who is hitting if you have no pitching. You even said the young guys aren't ready. What are they supposed to do in the mean time? More OJT in the majors for the young pitchers because they pitched well in Bowie? Not a good idea but you are the expert. Uh wait...no your not. You are just a mark for Teixeira.

In the meantime, the pitchers are not supposed to do more OJT, they are supposed to compete for starting positions for the Baltimore Orioles. Over time, with a large number of prospects, the odds are that some will surprise the coaches and earn a chance to pitch in the majors. I never said I was an expert.

So from what I read you would be happy if they just signed Teixiera and did nothing else. Is that the message you are trying to convey? Thank God you are not the GM,VP or whatever it's called this week. We would end up being Rangers east if you were in charge. It would be some lineup but while we score eight or seven a night we would lose by 8 or 7 oops wait that's what happening now. See we don't need him for that were doing it now ha ha.

I never said Id be happy if they ONLY signed Teixeira, although that singular posted was dedicated to WHY WE SHOULD go after him. Im in no position to be a GM and I didnt know that this message board was only for people who wanted to be GMs. I thought that, just like you, I could state my opinion on what the Os should do. Ive never seen a message board where everyone agrees on everything posted.

The Orioles are 7th in the league in runs scored at 587 this year. The Os pitching staff has the 5th worst runs allowed at 606 this year. So over the course of 118 games, they have scored 19 less runs than their opponents. Im sure weve lost by 8 or 7 runs this year, but weve also won by sizeable amounts at times. With only a 19 run differential, our pitching is SO bad that were getting blown out in every game.

If he signed here...great. I would be happy watching all the runs score and having the hometown boy...home.

Me too. Im glad that you think itd be great if he signed here. I dedicated the entire last post to that.

If nothing is done about stabilizing the pitching staff until the young guys are ready then the Orioles are going to be hurting. This is the best collection of young guys the Orioles have had at once that I can ever remember. That excites me more than any free agent sigining. So my main thing is I don't want to see them ruined by being rushed. I am more excited about Wieters and his potential the possiblities of getting Teixeira at least one of those expectations are realistic.

This is a sensible argument. Youre right the pitching staff will be hurting next year. But my point in the last post was this: the Os lost out on Burnett and Pavano over the past 5 years, got Kris Benson, and traded away Bedard. Lets pretend for a second that all of these players were still Orioles. Right now three would be injured and the only one playing (Burnett) has a 4.67 ERA this season (for comparison, Daniel Cabreras ERA is 4.78).

I dont want to see young players rushed, and I made that clear in my last post. But whats worse is to sign free agent pitchers when were not going to win anyways. Im all for innings eaters, but Im completely against going after expensive free agent pitchers because the one thing we have a ton of in our farm system are pitching prospects. We dont have infield prospects in the minors and our only two first basemens contract go out at the end of next season. With the opportunity to at least TRY and get Teixeira, that could solve our problem at 1B for a while.

Bottom line is this if they got him great but before or after they do they need some pitching like everyone else needs. They are not going to win more than they lose with a rotation of
Guthrie - the only constant in the rotation
Cabrera - consistantly inconsistant also if he is your number two your in trouble
Olson - I don't want to see this happen to anymore young guys.
Sarfate - Needs to go back to the pen and hopefully will this week.
Waters - Just filling in and trying to make the most of his oppertunity. So who knows what's in store for this guy.

Whos to say that some of the starters wont get better next year? I agree that we cannot count on Cabrera so much, but some of the younger players have significant upside. Again, the only other option is to go spend money on free agents (which we tried to do with Burnett, Pavano, etc. and lost). If we had won those contests for free agents, we wouldnt be any better now its almost a blessing that those guys went elsewhere.

I love the Orioles and want to see them succeed. With that said besides Mark being the hometown boy and loads of $$$$. What other incentive does he have to come here? He will put more butts in the seats but does that matter to him not nearly as much as it does to the warehouse.

I agree that Teixeira has little incentives (other than those that you listed) to go to Baltimore. That being said, should the front office just give up? Should they not even try? Most in the baseball business have suggested that the Orioles are definitely a top five pick to land Teixeira. In fact, most websites state that the Os are the third most likely team to land him. If the Os give up on Teixeira to go after A.J. Burnett and his 4.50 ERA, Id question the direction of the team.

Can you tell me next year's rotation besides Guthrie has opening day followed by Cabrera. Neither can the Orioles.

Its not always about next year. This team is not going to win the pennant next year. Can you tell me who the 1B will be in 2010? Can Huff play 162 games at 1B next year? Should we just resign Millar and his .240 batting average? How do we know Millar wont be signed by another team after all, he will be a free agent.

How are they going to convince him to sign here besides the reasons I mentioned? If his love for Charm City is that strong it will be a great summer and welcome home wooo hooo. But I am not sure how a rebuilding process is going to sound to him.

Again, we shouldnt give up on him just because we dont think were going to get him.

Especially if the Angels win the World Series. Everyone that wants him better hope the Angels have an early exit in the playoffs or some kind of falling out. Because if they win he doesn't sign here. I see him using the Orioles like many guys have used the Orioles to drive the price up just to sign else where i.e Vlad. I don't think he is going resign any time soon. He has said he wants to find out what's out there and he will. If he resigns with the Angels it will only be after some big game fishing.

I agree that if the Angels win the world series, hes likely going to resign with them. However, its still not a good enough reason to quit going after him.

Good, let him use the Orioles to raise the price for another club. Im all for that!

In closing the Orioles could have won a lot more games this year with better pitching. If the Orioles could somehow get a solid pitcher or two for the rotation and the pen and play good defense they could win more games next year without Teixeira. They have won more games this year then people thought they would already.

I guess the Os should have kept Erik Bedard then and gone after Carlos Silva and other starting pitchers who have performed so well this year.

Tell me this when you score seven runs and lose by eight what's the problem?

I understand your point, but if we had Tike Redman in CF instead of Adam Jones and had Bedard on the mound with last years bullpen to pitch the last two innings, we would have lost 5-1. My point is, at least this year were scoring 7 runs.

Ill finish with this Were just in disagreement. In a perfect world, the Os would go after pitchers and Teixeira and win a world series next year. However, Im a fan of using what youve got in your farm system. Most world series teams have used at least one or two pitchers from their farm system to get there. Maybe the Os will find those prospects over the next two years the odds sure are in their favor with the number of prospects theyve drafted/traded for. So instead of going after veteran (expensive) pitchers, wait for the prospects to develop. In the meantime, by the end of next year the Os could honestly have Melvin Mora as the only remaining infielder (and his contract is up after 2010). That leaves a lineup that includes Scott, Jones, Markakis, Weiters, and Mora. You cant ONLY look for pitchers on the market, especially when your farm system is littered with them.

Eicholtz
08-13-2008, 10:21 PM
I get it now, you don't get it. Two quick things.

The payroll comment that you brought up is getting way too much attention. Let me paraphrase for you. Their money is their money I don't feel entitled to any of it. You have me confused with people that think because they bought some tickets that they are majority owners. That's the complete opposite of my message.


Here it is the nitty gritty of my entire entry. If they spend $100 plus mill on one player Teixeira and none on a quality pitcher that is what I would have a problem with. Remove money from this equation. I could careless about "their money". I am talking about acquiring some solid arms that know how to get batters out. Taking time to improve the biggest hole on the team is what I am talking about. That in my opinion should be their primary objective this offseason. If Teixeira comes along fine but this team needs pitching first and foremost. When they get good pitching they win.

How is that? Was that better? Are we tracking now? I hope so but this has made for good conversation. I can over look you being wrong. lol. I am watching the game wrap up now so let me reiterate. Good pitching overcomes good hitting again. Thank God for Guthrie.




First things first..NO $h!+ it's not my money. When did I say it was...

You didn’t say that it was your money, but you did say “Personally I don't want him here if it costs the price thats floating around.” My only point by saying that was that costs shouldn’t be as important to fans in baseball, especially with no salary cap. In fact, most fans complain more about their team’s front office not going out to get top prospects than they do complaining about ticket prices. That’s not to say you are one of those people, but still – you’re not writing a check for Teixeira, so your argument that he’s not worth the cost doesn’t seem like a big deal from the fan standpoint.

It makes no difference who is hitting if you have no pitching. You even said the young guys aren't ready. What are they supposed to do in the mean time? More OJT in the majors for the young pitchers because they pitched well in Bowie? Not a good idea but you are the expert. Uh wait...no your not. You are just a mark for Teixeira.

In the meantime, the pitchers are not supposed to do “more OJT”, they are supposed to compete for starting positions for the Baltimore Orioles. Over time, with a large number of prospects, the odds are that some will surprise the coaches and earn a chance to pitch in the majors. I never said I was an expert.

So from what I read you would be happy if they just signed Teixiera and did nothing else. Is that the message you are trying to convey? Thank God you are not the GM,VP or whatever it's called this week. We would end up being Rangers east if you were in charge. It would be some lineup but while we score eight or seven a night we would lose by 8 or 7 oops wait that's what happening now. See we don't need him for that were doing it now ha ha.

I never said I’d be happy if they ONLY signed Teixeira, although that singular posted was dedicated to WHY WE SHOULD go after him. I’m in no position to be a GM and I didn’t know that this message board was only for people who wanted to be GM’s. I thought that, just like you, I could state my opinion on what the O’s should do. I’ve never seen a message board where everyone agrees on everything posted.

The Orioles are 7th in the league in runs scored at 587 this year. The O’s pitching staff has the 5th worst runs allowed at 606 this year. So over the course of 118 games, they have scored 19 less runs than their opponents. I’m sure we’ve lost by “8 or 7” runs this year, but we’ve also won by sizeable amounts at times. With only a 19 run differential, our pitching is SO bad that we’re getting blown out in every game.

If he signed here...great. I would be happy watching all the runs score and having the hometown boy...home.

Me too. I’m glad that you think it’d be great if he signed here. I dedicated the entire last post to that.

If nothing is done about stabilizing the pitching staff until the young guys are ready then the Orioles are going to be hurting. This is the best collection of young guys the Orioles have had at once that I can ever remember. That excites me more than any free agent sigining. So my main thing is I don't want to see them ruined by being rushed. I am more excited about Wieters and his potential the possiblities of getting Teixeira at least one of those expectations are realistic.

This is a sensible argument. You’re right – the pitching staff will be hurting next year. But my point in the last post was this: the O’s lost out on Burnett and Pavano over the past 5 years, got Kris Benson, and traded away Bedard. Lets pretend for a second that all of these players were still Orioles. Right now three would be injured and the only one playing (Burnett) has a 4.67 ERA this season (for comparison, Daniel Cabrera’s ERA is 4.78).

I don’t want to see young players rushed, and I made that clear in my last post. But what’s worse is to sign free agent pitchers when we’re not going to win anyways. I’m all for innings eaters, but I’m completely against going after expensive free agent pitchers because the one thing we have a ton of in our farm system are pitching prospects. We don’t have infield prospects in the minors and our only two first basemen’s contract go out at the end of next season. With the opportunity to at least TRY and get Teixeira, that could solve our problem at 1B for a while.

Bottom line is this if they got him great but before or after they do they need some pitching like everyone else needs. They are not going to win more than they lose with a rotation of
Guthrie - the only constant in the rotation
Cabrera - consistantly inconsistant also if he is your number two your in trouble
Olson - I don't want to see this happen to anymore young guys.
Sarfate - Needs to go back to the pen and hopefully will this week.
Waters - Just filling in and trying to make the most of his oppertunity. So who knows what's in store for this guy.

Who’s to say that some of the starters won’t get better next year? I agree that we cannot count on Cabrera so much, but some of the younger players have significant upside. Again, the only other option is to go spend money on free agents (which we tried to do with Burnett, Pavano, etc. and lost). If we had won those contests for free agents, we wouldn’t be any better now – it’s almost a blessing that those guys went elsewhere.

I love the Orioles and want to see them succeed. With that said besides Mark being the hometown boy and loads of $$$$. What other incentive does he have to come here? He will put more butts in the seats but does that matter to him not nearly as much as it does to the warehouse.

I agree that Teixeira has little incentives (other than those that you listed) to go to Baltimore. That being said, should the front office just give up? Should they not even try? Most in the baseball business have suggested that the Orioles are definitely a top five pick to land Teixeira. In fact, most websites state that the O’s are the third most likely team to land him. If the O’s give up on Teixeira to go after A.J. Burnett and his 4.50 ERA, I’d question the direction of the team.

Can you tell me next year's rotation besides Guthrie has opening day followed by Cabrera. Neither can the Orioles.

It’s not always about next year. This team is not going to win the pennant next year. Can you tell me who the 1B will be in 2010? Can Huff play 162 games at 1B next year? Should we just resign Millar and his .240 batting average? How do we know Millar won’t be signed by another team – after all, he will be a free agent.

How are they going to convince him to sign here besides the reasons I mentioned? If his love for Charm City is that strong it will be a great summer and welcome home wooo hooo. But I am not sure how a rebuilding process is going to sound to him.

Again, we shouldn’t give up on him just because we don’t think we’re going to get him.

Especially if the Angels win the World Series. Everyone that wants him better hope the Angels have an early exit in the playoffs or some kind of falling out. Because if they win he doesn't sign here. I see him using the Orioles like many guys have used the Orioles to drive the price up just to sign else where i.e Vlad. I don't think he is going resign any time soon. He has said he wants to find out what's out there and he will. If he resigns with the Angels it will only be after some big game fishing.

I agree that if the Angels win the world series, he’s likely going to resign with them. However, it’s still not a good enough reason to quit going after him.

Good, let him use the Orioles to raise the price for another club. I’m all for that!

In closing the Orioles could have won a lot more games this year with better pitching. If the Orioles could somehow get a solid pitcher or two for the rotation and the pen and play good defense they could win more games next year without Teixeira. They have won more games this year then people thought they would already.

I guess the O’s should have kept Erik Bedard then and gone after Carlos Silva and other starting pitchers who have performed so well this year.

Tell me this when you score seven runs and lose by eight what's the problem?

I understand your point, but if we had Tike Redman in CF instead of Adam Jones and had Bedard on the mound with last year’s bullpen to pitch the last two innings, we would have lost 5-1. My point is, at least this year we’re scoring 7 runs.

I’ll finish with this… We’re just in disagreement. In a perfect world, the O’s would go after pitchers and Teixeira and win a world series next year. However, I’m a fan of using what you’ve got in your farm system. Most world series teams have used at least one or two pitchers from their farm system to get there. Maybe the O’s will find those prospects over the next two years – the odds sure are in their favor with the number of prospects they’ve drafted/traded for. So instead of going after veteran (expensive) pitchers, wait for the prospects to develop. In the meantime, by the end of next year the O’s could honestly have Melvin Mora as the only remaining infielder (and his contract is up after 2010). That leaves a lineup that includes Scott, Jones, Markakis, Weiters, and Mora. You can’t ONLY look for pitchers on the market, especially when your farm system is littered with them.

terp12354
08-14-2008, 10:47 AM
Interesting debate going on here. I see the points on both sides, and I would love to get Tex but only if we address the pitching as well. THe key to the pitching side is if yo usign these vets, do it for maybe 1-2yr contracts so when all our young stud arms are ready.... they can pitch. Also I think we sould relaly only worry about our starting pitching. To be honest i think our bullpen could be awesome next year. In theory (this is assumign everyoen comes back from injury ok, which i know is a big 'if'), we could have a bull pen featuring Sherriel, Ray, Albers and Johnson. That would be a pretty damn good 4 some there (again if everyoen comes back form injury ok). Through in Baez coming back and that only leaves a couple spots in the bullpen....

sleewizard
08-14-2008, 10:59 AM
I believe using only in house options are rotation will be
1. Jeremy Guthrie
2. Daniel Cabrera
3. Troy Patton
4. Bradley Bergeson
5. David Hernandez, Radhames Liz, Garrett Olson

bshone
08-14-2008, 11:18 AM
I get it now, you don't get it. Two quick things.

The payroll comment that you brought up is getting way too much attention. Let me paraphrase for you. Their money is their money I don't feel entitled to any of it. You have me confused with people that think because they bought some tickets that they are majority owners. That's the complete opposite of my message.


Here it is the nitty gritty of my entire entry. If they spend $100 plus mill on one player Teixeira and none on a quality pitcher that is what I would have a problem with. Remove money from this equation. I could careless about "their money". I am talking about acquiring some solid arms that know how to get batters out. Taking time to improve the biggest hole on the team is what I am talking about. That in my opinion should be their primary objective this offseason. If Teixeira comes along fine but this team needs pitching first and foremost. When they get good pitching they win.

How is that? Was that better? Are we tracking now? I hope so but this has made for good conversation. I can over look you being wrong. lol. I am watching the game wrap up now so let me reiterate. Good pitching overcomes good hitting again. Thank God for Guthrie.


I understand what you've been saying all along, and your sarcastic tone isn't helping to get your point across. So to answer your question of "was that better" I'd have to say no, it was the same thing you've said all along - which is fine, but I'm not stupid - I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with what you're saying. Those are two different things.

It comes down to the fact that I don't want to go out on the free agent pitching market yet because I want to see the young arms continue to develop in the minors while we know we're not going to win a championship.

While you would like to tackle our main issue for next year first (which makes sense), I just happen to look one year further down the road at the fact that we will have lost Millar, Huff, Roberts, Hernandez, Payton, and maybe even Mora to free agency.

It would be myopic to only look at our needs for next year, considering more than half of our lineup will be gone to free agency at the end of next year.

I think we can go one more year without going out to sign a free agent pitcher (see Bedard, Zito, Silva, Burnett, Pavano, Benson, etc. for examples of how signing free agents or trading for SP will not necessarily shore up your starting rotation). Then, next year we can evaluate whether any progress has been made in the minors. If there has been, we can begin to give those guys a chance in the majors when they're ready.

By signing Teixeira, I believe the O's would stabilize their infield for the future since it would likely lock Roberts in at 2B in the long term. With Weiters, Jones, and Markakis all in the future mix of things, adding a solid right side of the infield would make it easier in TWO years to then go out and get some pitching (when we're actually in contention).

If you were the GM, I imagine that you would be interested in signing A.J. Burnett and maybe another SP. That's fine - I just happen to disagree with that strategy for this year. Why? Because I would guess that starting the 2010 season you would need to go out and get a 1B, 2B, and SS.

If I were the GM, my pitching staff would admittedly struggle again next year, but if I landed Teixeira and resigned Roberts, I would go full steam at some free agent pitchers for the 2010 season. Plus, by then I would know more about my pitching prospects in the minors (players like Tillman).

Again, it's okay to disagree on a message board. So yes, I understand that pitching is our current weakness. But that doesn't mean that it will be our weakness in two years when our lineup has been depleted and our ptchers in the minors have had time to get better.

bshone
08-14-2008, 11:25 AM
Interesting debate going on here. I see the points on both sides, and I would love to get Tex but only if we address the pitching as well. THe key to the pitching side is if yo usign these vets, do it for maybe 1-2yr contracts so when all our young stud arms are ready.... they can pitch. Also I think we sould relaly only worry about our starting pitching. To be honest i think our bullpen could be awesome next year. In theory (this is assumign everyoen comes back from injury ok, which i know is a big 'if'), we could have a bull pen featuring Sherriel, Ray, Albers and Johnson. That would be a pretty damn good 4 some there (again if everyoen comes back form injury ok). Through in Baez coming back and that only leaves a couple spots in the bullpen....

Two very good points that I'd like to recap:

1. IF (and again, that doesn't mean I agree), but IF you do go out and get free agent pitchers, don't sign them for long because in the next year or so we will have a better idea of which young arms in the minors can make it.

2. The bullpen is fine - why fix it if it ain't broke? With the contract we gave Baez we absolutely have to give him a chance to try and earn it next year. And Chris Ray has been molded his entire career to be a late innings guy for the O's. If we're lucky, they could both bounce back from injuries well next year and our bullpen could be even better.

I'll add to this the idea that if we go get a free agent pitcher (which honestly scares the living piss out of me given the way these kind of pitchers have performed for other teams recently), I hope we get a guy who can simply eat up innings. I thought it was worth a shot for Trachsel again this year, but he didn't eat up the innings quite like last year, so it was good that we got rid of him.

The whole Teixeira thing is a long shot, but I think it'd be dumb to pass up a shot at a guy like him.

Eicholtz
08-15-2008, 09:11 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that we have a different perspectives,views and ideas but that's cool.

That's why I like this forum. But I think we can agree on this. We as everyone in this forum have the best interest of the Baltimore Orioles in our minds and really that's all we want. However they do it. In whatever manner.

If they continue to try and reconnect with Baltimore and put more W's on the board that's what matters. I don't think anyone really would care the manner as long as it happens for many years to come. I am going to be putting more stuff up soon. Keep your eyes out for it. Good debate.

bshone
08-15-2008, 10:52 AM
I think it's pretty obvious that we have a different perspectives,views and ideas but that's cool.

That's why I like this forum. But I think we can agree on this. We as everyone in this forum have the best interest of the Baltimore Orioles in our minds and really that's all we want. However they do it. In whatever manner.

If they continue to try and reconnect with Baltimore and put more W's on the board that's what matters. I don't think anyone really would care the manner as long as it happens for many years to come. I am going to be putting more stuff up soon. Keep your eyes out for it. Good debate.

Agreed.

papipapsmanny
08-17-2008, 03:25 AM
what i would do?

Let Nolan Reimold start in LF, and Let Matt Weiters start at C

Sign Rafael Furcal, and milton bradley

Furcal 3 year deal, bradley 3 year deal

Sign Derek lowe to get some pitching depth in the rotation- 2 year deal

Sign Brandon Lyon to make the pen even better

Lineup:
Roberts 2B
Furcal SS
Markakis RF
Bradley DH
Huff 1B
Weiters C
Reimold LF
Mora 3B
Jones CF


Rotation:
Guthrie
Lowe
Cabrera
Patton
Liz


Trade Luke Scott for some prospects, if things go well, and cabrera shows value at the deadline and tillman is ready, trade cabrera for more prospects, and let tillman show his great stuff in the mlb


so really there arent any majore signings, but bradley, lowe, and furcal would be 3 very noticable and impact signings, and they wouldnt cost a crazy amount maybe a combined 30 million per year tops, i believe signing those 3 would be better than just signing texeria

Khennick
08-17-2008, 07:58 PM
I have read this thread and everyones opinions, but i believe are most important priority is making the Orioles contend as a powerhouse from 2011 and beyond. Based on that, i recomend that we continue with the rebuilding plan. which is to trade Brian Roberts, Aubry Huff, and maybe George Sherril to stockpile more young talent in are farm system and get some young major league ready talent.

dick12
08-17-2008, 08:08 PM
Yeah, orioles really need to improve their pitching staff and we all know
that they're not going to contend next year. with guthrie and umm... that's
it basicly. so with that said sept. call up should include future prospects
such as arrieta, wieters, and tillman. im not really high on A J burnett unless
the o's could sign him cheap as well as Texiera, but we all know that will not happen and i seriously doubt they would go for C.C sabathia too.

therefore, i like what mcphail is doing. he really has everything planned
out and as far as im concerned i think the o's should be contending in 2010 with
smart and wise decisions.

o'sfan08
08-18-2008, 01:56 AM
Furcal is not the answer at shortstop. He would be a waste of money. No doubt he is a great player, when healthy, but he can't stay healthy. And you know for sure he won't if comes to Baltimore, history shows. I wouldn't mind Bradley but I think we could do better. I would rather save the money on those two and go after Tex. I don't know if we give up Sherril yet tho, have to wait and see how Ray ends up. I don't really want to see Scott go, but if needed trade him, Ramon, Cabrera, and Sherril deppending on Ray. I'd have to think they could get a decent prospects in return.

excedrin1997
08-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Here are my ideas for next season. I think we will and should get Tex, but Bradley is having a career year, and we have learned our lesson about signing guys after career years. He'll sign for big money somewhere, and probably end up like another Gary Matthews.

C - Matt Weiters - Should get the call up.
1B - Aubrey Huff - Still not all that old.
2B - Brian Roberts - No brainer
SS - Cristian Guzman - Average defense, good offense.
3B - Melvin Mora - Not everyone is high on him, but he has been the hottest hitter in baseball since July 1, longest tentured Oriole and good veteran to have on the club.
LF - Nolan Reimold/Lou Montenez - Platoon until one starts to outplay the other, unless we grab a guy like Pat Burrell for a year or so which probably wont happen.
CF - Adam Jones - Enough said.
RF - Nick Markakis - No brainer.
DH - Luke Scott/Kevin Millar - One of these guys will not be on the team next year. I'd say let Millar to through FA, or waiver trade.

SP - Jeremy Gutherie
SP - Daniel Cabrera
SP - Mike Mussina - Why not end his career as an Oriole. We havent seen a winning season since he left.
SP - Garrett Olsen
SP - Liz/Bergeson/Hernandez/Patton/Waters/Penn/Burres/Tillman/Arrieta - A lot of names here, but all these guys will probably get a turn through injury, and should to see what they have. I see a few of these guys also getting some bullpen time.

RP - Ray, Sherrill, Albers, Hoey, McCrory, J. Johnson, Mickolio, F. Cabrera, Baez - Lot of other guys will come and go such as Cherry, Cormier, Miller, Aquino.

Dashtary
08-18-2008, 03:37 PM
first off christian guzman signed a 3 year deal wit the nats, we are trying to get younger not older by signing guys like mussina, we have guys that could be major league ready next year like patton,penn, and other pitching prospects, if possible trade guys like payton, hernandez, millar, walker, and keep huff. Then in the offseason trade roberts and sherill for a lot of talent

excedrin1997
08-18-2008, 05:20 PM
Didnt know he signed an extension, old FA list for this offseason. The Orioles look to be saving money, and signing Mussina gives the rotation some stability. The reason our bullpen is so terrible is because our starters are not getting late into games, and putting us behind in the first couple of innings, so they're overpitched. If we keep throwing guys like Liz, Sarfate, etc., and i'm sure a lot of other guys next year with no experience, our bullpen will suffer no matter who we put in there. We need some stable inning eaters, I wouldnt care if it was 45 year old Jamie Moyer as long as he got us a good 6 innings when he got in there to let some of the younger guys develop before throwing them in the rotation full time. A lot of our pitching is in AA, and havent even seen AAA yet, and the guys at AAA such as Penn havent faired too well. I'd like to see some of those guys like Tillman, Arrieta, Hernandez, and Bergeson dominate before being thrusted into the rotation.

Dashtary
08-18-2008, 05:47 PM
how many good pitching prospects do we have? seriously... im wondering what would happen to some of the pitching prospects if the rotation is full, like jim johnson i think he could be a starter, he was a starter b4 he got called upvwhat is our 5man rotation of the future? is it with guys like Penn,Pattpn, Tillman, etc..

sleewizard
08-18-2008, 07:50 PM
i think our future rotation is:
Jeremy Guthrie
Chris Tillman
Daniel Cabrera
Jake Arrieta
Bradley Bergeson, David Hernandez, Troy Patton, Brandon Erbe, Brian Matusz

Our lineup next year on the year after is:
C: Matt Weiters
1B: Aubrey Huff
2B: Brian Roberts
3B: Melvin Mora, Scott Moore
SS: Whoever the hell they feel like that day.
LF: Nolan Reimold
CF: Adam Jones
RF: Nick Markakis

Long term future lineup (2011 maybe)
C: Matt Weiters
1B: Brandon Snyder
2B: Jerome Hoes
3B: Billy Rowell
SS: Greg Miclat
LF: Xavier Avery, Nolan Reimold
CF: Adam Jones
RF: Nick Markakis
DH: Nolan Reimold

bshone
08-18-2008, 09:57 PM
first off christian guzman signed a 3 year deal wit the nats, we are trying to get younger not older by signing guys like mussina, we have guys that could be major league ready next year like patton,penn, and other pitching prospects, if possible trade guys like payton, hernandez, millar, walker, and keep huff. Then in the offseason trade roberts and sherill for a lot of talent

Exactly. Plus it's nice that he plays for the Yankee's now because the O's generally mash the ball when they play him.

I hope Mussina never wins a championship. In fact, I hope he never reaches 300 wins.

Brendan
08-18-2008, 10:04 PM
If Furcal is a FA i think he would be a GREAT pickup

bigity b
08-20-2008, 03:12 PM
If the pricce is right (and I am thinking it will be due to age, production, and injury history) I think Furcal would be a great pick-up/2-3 year band-aid. That will give Miclat time to develop at his own pace.

I hear all the cries for a vet pitcher (burnett, mussina, etc.) but I'm torn. I understand getting a veteran innings eater who can teach the young guys. But we have so many young guys. There are about 10 vying for the 3-5 rotation slots next year. If we did not pick-up a pitcher, I wouldnt care. I just hope we dont overpay and overextend for one when we have so many ready and willing... What about a blockbuster trade where we package a lot of them for a big fish with a few years remaining on his contract. Liriano isn't happy in Minn...

And of course, there is always the Tex debate. He is the one guy I would break the bank for and deposit in my lineup for the next 10 years. He, with several other players (markakis, jones, roberts) are buolding blocks.

Lastly, I have complete faith in McPhail. I've loved all he has done while on the job (including holding onto roberts) and i'm sure he wont sit tight in the offseason. I expect a few solid moves.

Brendan
08-20-2008, 05:02 PM
Yeah now that McPhail knows the strengths and weaknesses of this team, and he knows the direction we are going in, expect him to get going and really putting this team together

vetoedbyangelos
08-21-2008, 10:08 PM
I think Andy MacPhail is impressed with the current composition of the ballclub. He isn't breaking it up for prospects, and he's taking a cautious approach with our developing minor leaguers. He dumped Chad Bradford to clear payroll, and Jay Payton and Kevin Millar are scheduled to come off the books too - unless we resign Millar.

We need a shortstop, and I think MacPhail would rather shoot for a FA than risk trading Roberts and developing two more youngsters. Our lineup is getting younger, and it will still be effective when the pitching comes around. The fans want Mark Teixeira, and if the fans want him - why not? He'll help the club at 1B.

I believe the Orioles should take a look at Rafael Furcal. Here's why. Statistically, he's a table setter who steals bases and plays slick defense. Yes, he's injury prone, but we're not talking about a long-term deal here. Maybe 3 years. So what if he goes down with an injury, you just plug in Juan Castro or whatever piece we can dredge up. I mean, these are the guys starting for us now anyways...

Besides, what if Furcal stays healthy? We already know he can hit, and he'll probably be forced to take a paycut because of his reliability issues. Either way, he'd be worth some prospects - even towards the end of a 3 year deal. There isn't much risk in signing him - far less risk than signing Milton Bradley, who is considered a clubhouse cancer (unfairly, I think).

The Orioles will probably trade Ramon Hernandez during the offseason, and you can bet that Jamie Walker will be getting a new address too. We don't have room in the bullpen for him, and we don't need him. If their money comes off the payroll, then we can sign Teixeira without bumping our current payroll by a single dollar (assuming we don't bring back Millar). So what's the overhead? Sign Furcal. It's a minor increase, and a drastic improvement to our lineup.

Meanwhile, I think the Orioles should trade for another starting pitcher - and not necessarily one that's riding off into the sunset. Veteran pitchers that rely on control like Mussina and Lowe get statistically volatile as they age. Matt Morris is a great example. Plus, I don't think Mussina would come back (even if I personally wouldn't mind having him).

So how do we go about getting that pitcher, especially if Hernandez and Walker are salary dumps? You trade Luke Scott and let Lou Montanez and Nolan Reimold battle it out in Spring Training. I also vote for keeping Aubrey Huff.

So, Luke Scott plus any combination of Jamie Walker, Ramon Hernandez, Brian Burres, and/or cash. Yeah, it's a major salary dump for us - but assuming we give out some cash to get a better pitcher, we could make out pretty well. That, and the other team will have control of Scott and Burres for a couple of years, in addition to one year of Walker and Hernandez, with an option on Ramon. He's still a good catcher, and that's a premium position - especially when the guy has a good reputation as a signal caller.

I'm not expecting to get back a stud, I'm looking for one of two things - either a reliable innings eater who is a sinkerball pitcher (think Scott Erickson), or a guy with big upside that we can sign to an extension before we make the deal.

If these things happen, then you're talking about bumping Cabrera to the three spot in the rotation - and the further back he's pushed, the better. In fact, I'd actually be all for keeping him as our number 5 starter. He's got occassionally dominant stuff, he can get ground balls when he's effective, and he's sturdy. Plus the Yankees really don't like hitting off of him. He'll never get that expensive either. After all, he isn't Diasuke Matsuzaka.

Use 2009 to audition our AA talent, which should be advanced to AAA to start the year. By midseason, we can take a look at Brad Bergesen, David Hernandez, and maybe Chris Tillman. In the meantime, we can make do with Troy Patton and Garrett Olson. That way, by the end of 2009 - when Baez comes off the books - we'll know whether Liz, Hernandez, McCrory, or Mickolio will be cut out for bullpen work.

bigity b
08-22-2008, 11:01 AM
I agree with most of the above. The first four paragraphs I am on board with (signing Furcal, letting older salary-expiring players go, etc).

However, I understand dumping Hernandez for money reasons, but if he's so good at calling a game why not have him be the back-up next year? I understand it would be a real expensive back-up, but for one year he can impart his wisdom to Weiters and help take the load off by playing a bit more than most back-ups play. Maybe someone will want him at the trade deadline?Unless we were able to package Hernandez with a bunch of prospects in the offseason to get that starting pitcher you talk about, I dont think we should go out of our way to try and rid ourselves of him.

I think the young guys on the roster right now are playing better than expected and the rebuilding process will only be for another year or two before there expected to compete (i.e. Rays). In the meantime, we could add a few big names here and there until we're ready to burst on the scene. Didn't Detroit do that (remember when Pudge signed there the year after the lost over 100 games)?

The good news is there is fairly reasonable hope for the future. Just a few pieces here and there with minimal overhaul. It's a matter of letting the older guys expire and move on while integrating the younger guys. We do need a stud pitcher to anchor the rotation, but how many are really out there?