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IndyFan
08-11-2008, 10:11 AM
Saw this and thought you might like to see it.

Ranking the West - Hoops World


There have been some changes made in the Western Conference this summer, and there will likely be some more before it's all said done. Here's a look at the way the conference shapes up today with the rosters as currently constituted.

1. Los Angeles Lakers
2. San Antonio Spurs
3. New Orleans Hornets
4. Utah Jazz
5. Houston Rockets
6. Dallas Mavericks
7. Phoenix Suns

8. Denver Nuggets - People are sleeping on the Nuggets. Yes, losing Marcus Camby and Eduardo Najera will hurt. However, Chris Anderson and Dahntay Jones are two cheap pieces that have the potential to contribute defensively, which is an area the Nuggets are in desperate need of help. All told, the Nuggets will still have a starting lineup that features Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson, Nene and Kenyon Martin with a young stud like J.R. Smith likely first off the bench. Does that group make Denver a true title contender? Probably not. But it's also a group that will likely be better than most people seem to think they will be.

9. Portland Trail Blazers
10. Los Angeles Clippers
11. Golden State Warriors
12. Sacramento Kings
13. Memphis Grizzlies
14. Minnesota Timberwolves
15. Oklahoma City TBA's

hoops world (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9604)

:)

DES
08-11-2008, 10:40 AM
number ten....replaces number eight...

DenButsu
08-11-2008, 10:50 AM
number ten....replaces number eight...

:laugh2: Yeah, because Camby/Baron is a major upgrade to Brand/Maggette. Right...

TheAnswer037108
08-11-2008, 12:53 PM
There are a couple things that I have trouble with in that list. First, there's no way I'm putting Phoenix over Denver. At least not on paper. Of course, once the season starts, things might play out differently and I'll look like a *******. But for now, there's no way I'm putting an Old Shaq and Nash over AI, Melo, KMart, Nene, and JR. They have some good pieces but losing Marion was huge. Amare is great but outside of that I don't see much else. Nash's game is only gonna go down from here and Shaq is an average center now. Also, I wouldn't put the Mavericks above Denver either. Kidd is old, as is Stackhouse and both players are gonna see substantial diminishes in their game. Dirk, again, is a great big and Howard is one of the top SFs in the game. But losing Harris was big and I don't see the Mavericks having quite enough firepower. My list would go somethin like this...

1. LA Lakers
2. N.O. Hornets
3. Houston Rockets
4. San Antonio Spurs
5. [B]Denver Nuggets[B]
6. Utah Jazz
7. Dallas Mavericks
8. Phoenix Suns

I feel like if the Nuggs can acquire Shaun Livingston, that would solve a lot of our problems. Also, Karl needs to stop starting Anthony Carter (or Chucky Atkins for that matter) and put AI at point with JR at 2, or get a big PG like Livingston. If the Nuggs can do that, I would perhaps even put them higher than the Spurs.

IversonIsKrazy
08-11-2008, 03:59 PM
1. LA Lakers
2. New Orleans Hornets
3. San Antonio Spurs
4. Houston Rockets
5. Utah Jazz
6. Dallas Mavericks
7. Phoenix Suns
8. Portland Blazers
9. Denver Nuggets
10. LA Clippers
11. Golden State Warriors
12. Memphis Grizzlies
13. Sacramento Kings
14. Minnesota T'wolves
15. OKC

Nugget Tony
08-11-2008, 05:39 PM
1. L.A. Lakers
2. New Orleans Hornets
3. Houston Rockets
4. San Antonio Spurs
5. Portland Trailblazers
6. Utah Jazz
7. Dallas Mavs
8. Phoenix Suns
9. L.A. Clippers
10. Denver Nuggets
11. Golden State Warriors
12. Sacramento Kings
13. OKC
14. Minnesota Timberwolves
15. Memphis Grizzlies

SlowMo
08-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Cmon, be a real Nuggets fan. Here's what the list should look like:

1. Denver Nuggets

2 - 15 who cares, we're gonna win it all baby! Wooooo!

Kohaku
08-11-2008, 07:59 PM
Cmon, be a real Nuggets fan. Here's what the list should look like:

1. Denver Nuggets

2 - 15 who cares, we're gonna win it all baby! Wooooo!

Ideally yes, but realistically, I can't see that happening right now lol.

Stormblast
08-11-2008, 08:06 PM
The Answer, I can understand your reasoning for possibly ranking the Nugs above Phoenix and Dallas but what I don't quite understand is ranking them above Utah as well. They are quickly starting to become an elite team that has a lot of pieces that fit together quite well which benefits an all-around team game that wins in this league.

asadf
08-11-2008, 09:22 PM
1. Los Angeles Lakers
2. Houston Rockets
3. New Orleans Hornets
4. Utah Jazz
5. San Antonio Spurs
6. Dallas Mavericks
7. Denver Nuggets
8. Phoenix Suns
9. Portland Trailblazers
10. Los Angeles Clippers
11. Golden State Warriors
12. Sacramento Kings
13. Memphis Grizzlies
14. OKC Sonics
15. Minnesota T wolves

DenButsu
08-11-2008, 10:29 PM
It is :crazy: to put the Clips over the Nugs. They got worse this offseason, not better.

And to a lesser extent, it's pretty :crazy: to put Portland above us, too. They have proven little, except that they look on paper to have a lot of potential.

DES
08-12-2008, 02:45 AM
lol...ur funny dude..ur only better in 2 positions.....sg and sf...kinda like miami......and no....brand and mags are better than davis and camby..but not camby bdavis..rdavis..jwilliams..bskinner.steve novak...eric gordon....deandre jordan...lol...its not based on 2 guys genius..

BRAVE KID
08-12-2008, 03:18 AM
I wonder why they mention anderson and jones by not Balkman? did everyone forget about balkman or am I missing something..if I am then my bad.

the list seems about fair and right. And yes the nugs are ahead of the clips without a doubt, like it or not.

DenButsu
08-12-2008, 03:39 AM
Okay, first of all...

Ricky Davis? White Chocolate? Novak? I'll grant you have better depth, but please. Basically you just enhanced your bench with Miami and Houston's trash.***


Secondly, if you haven't understood yet that K-Mart >>> Camby at this point in their careers (looking at them as all-around, two-way players), then you're about to soon. For one thing, go take a look at the dunk stats thread. What kind of starting center in this league (and 6'11", I might add) lets his small forward get 2x and his power forward get 2.5x the number of dunks he does? I'll tell ya - the kind who loafs around at the top of the key waiting for outlet passes so he can take (and usually miss) a long range jumper with terrible form. And what kind of center leaves his power forward (who is 2" shorter) to take on defensive assignments such as Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan because he's afraid (and/or unable) to face up to one-on-one defensive tasks in the paint? Yep, that too would be Marcus Camby.

Camby did two things great for Denver: rebounded and blocked. He did one more good thing: passed - especially to Melo down low. But on offense he was a total liability, and even on defense he was a much greater liability than his accolades would suggest. (Last season, our overall team defense improved noticeably when Eduardo Najera would come in to replace Camby).

And have you noticed that Kaman and Camby are practically the same player? They both are pretty much blocking/rebounding specialists who are good help defenders. Kaman has more offense to his game, granted. But right now it seems to me that a lot of Clippers fans are under the impression that Camby's 2007-08 stats + Kaman's 2007-08 stats = their combined 2008-09 stats -- which is completely ridiculous. Camby was notorious in Denver for stealing rebounds from Melo and K-Mart to stuff his stat sheet. Wonder how that'll go over with Kaman. It will be amusing to me to watch them attempt to defy physics and occupy the same space at the same time when going for the same blocks and the same rebounds. Yeah, that's gonna be working out great for them, I'm sure.

Now, I'll give you one thing:

We have a situation on our hands that I know Clippers fans are familiar with, which is injury woes. So a lot of Denver's success or failure will be riding especially on the health of Nene, and to a lesser extent the health of Atkins. But if both K-Mart and Nene are healthy, I think it's pretty damn clear that Melo-K-Nene is a much more formidable frontcourt than Thornton-Camby-Kaman. To me, that's not even really disputable, although I'm sure Clips fans would disagree.

Which brings us to the guards. And I'll be the first to admit, we are most definitely weak in the pg position if you look at a depth chart that reads:

pg: Chucky Atkins, Anthony Carter
sg: AI, J.R. Smith

The trouble with reading it that way, though, is that more than likely J.R. will be playing a Ginobli-type role for us this season, in that he'll be a "fake" bench player who not only plays more minutes than Chucky, but also plays during the most important minutes at the end of games to help close out.

So I really see the truer picture as being:

Baron-Mobley-Thornton-Camby-Kaman
AI-JR-Melo-K-Nene

as starting units, and

JWill-Ricky-Novak-Thomas-Skinner
Chucky-AI-Balkman-LK-Hunter (and/or Andersen - we don't know yet)

I really like that Thomas-LK matchup. I think in any game we play this season who gets the upper hand there could go a long way in determining the outcome. Chucky-AI is a scary short backcourt, but pretty damn potent on the offensive end. Balkman's not an offensive threat, but at the same time, I think he can shut Novak down in the singular thing he does well, which is shoot the 3. And the backup centers are a wash, imo.


So yeah, with the big asterisk hanging on good health, I think the Nuggets have a much more potent roster, and a better all-around team. The Clips may take that first game, since we'll be on the road and Melo will be suspended for that DUI. But I think we can sweep the rest of the season series games on 11/26, 3/14, and 4/4.

And I think we're better poised to survive and thrive in the West, and tally more wins, than the Clippers are. I really don't see them finishing ahead of us.


----------------
***And by that I don't mean they're totally trash players - well, except for Ricky - I just mean they were thrown out with the trash by those teams.

DenButsu
08-12-2008, 03:40 AM
And yes the nugs are ahead of the clips without a doubt, like it or not.

If only I could learn to keep it so simple.... :laugh2:

BRAVE KID
08-12-2008, 03:51 AM
If only I could learn to keep it so simple.... :laugh2:the simpler the better:D but your anaylsis is how you are suppose to do it..good show:clap: I concur with the statement

TheAnswer037108
08-12-2008, 04:53 AM
After carefully reviewing the Clippers roster, I must say, they have more depth than I initially thought. Never the less, the Nuggets have the better roster. There's only one ball with only 5 players playing at a time. And the bottom line? The Clippers don't have a lineup that tops AI-JR-Melo-KMart-Nene.

A big part of our success depends on health. But a "healthy" Nene is better than a Camby. He probably won't put up the "defensive numbers" like Camby but he wont be taking threes and jumpers like a ******* either.

Furthermore, I would like to ask...WHAT'S THE FRIGGIN HOLD UP ON THE SHAUN LIVINGSTON SIGNING?

And no, I dont think the Mavericks or Suns have better teams than us. Outside of Nowitzki and Howard, the only real threat the Mavs have is Terry. Kidd is old and its showing if anyone is watching Team USA. And dont get me started with Shaq and Nash. They are only gonna be worse next season.

DES
08-12-2008, 10:49 AM
Okay, first of all...

Ricky Davis? White Chocolate? Novak? I'll grant you have better depth, but please. Basically you just enhanced your bench with Miami and Houston's trash.***


Secondly, if you haven't understood yet that K-Mart >>> Camby at this point in their careers (looking at them as all-around, two-way players), then you're about to soon. For one thing, go take a look at the dunk stats thread. What kind of starting center in this league (and 6'11", I might add) lets his small forward get 2x and his power forward get 2.5x the number of dunks he does? I'll tell ya - the kind who loafs around at the top of the key waiting for outlet passes so he can take (and usually miss) a long range jumper with terrible form. And what kind of center leaves his power forward (who is 2" shorter) to take on defensive assignments such as Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan because he's afraid (and/or unable) to face up to one-on-one defensive tasks in the paint? Yep, that too would be Marcus Camby.

Camby did two things great for Denver: rebounded and blocked. He did one more good thing: passed - especially to Melo down low. But on offense he was a total liability, and even on defense he was a much greater liability than his accolades would suggest. (Last season, our overall team defense improved noticeably when Eduardo Najera would come in to replace Camby).

And have you noticed that Kaman and Camby are practically the same player? They both are pretty much blocking/rebounding specialists who are good help defenders. Kaman has more offense to his game, granted. But right now it seems to me that a lot of Clippers fans are under the impression that Camby's 2007-08 stats + Kaman's 2007-08 stats = their combined 2008-09 stats -- which is completely ridiculous. Camby was notorious in Denver for stealing rebounds from Melo and K-Mart to stuff his stat sheet. Wonder how that'll go over with Kaman. It will be amusing to me to watch them attempt to defy physics and occupy the same space at the same time when going for the same blocks and the same rebounds. Yeah, that's gonna be working out great for them, I'm sure.

Now, I'll give you one thing:

We have a situation on our hands that I know Clippers fans are familiar with, which is injury woes. So a lot of Denver's success or failure will be riding especially on the health of Nene, and to a lesser extent the health of Atkins. But if both K-Mart and Nene are healthy, I think it's pretty damn clear that Melo-K-Nene is a much more formidable frontcourt than Thornton-Camby-Kaman. To me, that's not even really disputable, although I'm sure Clips fans would disagree.

Which brings us to the guards. And I'll be the first to admit, we are most definitely weak in the pg position if you look at a depth chart that reads:

pg: Chucky Atkins, Anthony Carter
sg: AI, J.R. Smith

The trouble with reading it that way, though, is that more than likely J.R. will be playing a Ginobli-type role for us this season, in that he'll be a "fake" bench player who not only plays more minutes than Chucky, but also plays during the most important minutes at the end of games to help close out.

So I really see the truer picture as being:

Baron-Mobley-Thornton-Camby-Kaman
AI-JR-Melo-K-Nene

as starting units, and

JWill-Ricky-Novak-Thomas-Skinner
Chucky-AI-Balkman-LK-Hunter (and/or Andersen - we don't know yet)

I really like that Thomas-LK matchup. I think in any game we play this season who gets the upper hand there could go a long way in determining the outcome. Chucky-AI is a scary short backcourt, but pretty damn potent on the offensive end. Balkman's not an offensive threat, but at the same time, I think he can shut Novak down in the singular thing he does well, which is shoot the 3. And the backup centers are a wash, imo.


So yeah, with the big asterisk hanging on good health, I think the Nuggets have a much more potent roster, and a better all-around team. The Clips may take that first game, since we'll be on the road and Melo will be suspended for that DUI. But I think we can sweep the rest of the season series games on 11/26, 3/14, and 4/4.

And I think we're better poised to survive and thrive in the West, and tally more wins, than the Clippers are. I really don't see them finishing ahead of us.


----------------
***And by that I don't mean they're totally trash players - well, except for Ricky - I just mean they were thrown out with the trash by those teams.


kaman>nene
camby>martin(under acheiver without flashy pg)
thornton(rising)<melo
mobley(fading)<ai
bdavis>atkins

rdavis=jr smith

let alone the nuggets lost thier 2 best defensive players...adding balkman to replace najera.
nene is not camby.. and whatever flaws u see in camby is what kaman can replace...we have already more than enough offense so..camby needs to focus only on D whether its coming from the weakside.....priority is bdavis and kaman....everyone else that doesnt work out is expendable.....ps..i dont think camby is a coward....doubt that..but i think najera is just better at nagging people.....coaches make the decisions as well.

DenButsu
08-12-2008, 11:16 AM
rdavis=jr smith

And just like that, you lose all credibility.

asadf
08-12-2008, 11:54 AM
ricky davis = jr smith???!!!

you have never seen JR play have you? clipper fans are getting all excited and aroused now because they THINK they got so much better this offseason. In the east the clips would get into the playoffs, no doubt about it. but they wont make it in the west. it will take 50 wins in the west and that clipper team has NO chance of winning 50 games. sorry, they just dont. So go take a cold shower and come back down to earth. Dont act like all us nugget fans did when we got AI, thinking that we were going to win it all. Reality is very different from hype and overblown expectations.

TheAnswer037108
08-12-2008, 12:53 PM
Ricky Davis used to be pretty good and hes still talented and athletic. But JR is better. Hes far more dangerous beyond the arc and hes a better finisher too near the rim.

So no, RDavis does not = JRSmith.

And you cant break it down like that. Because Carmelo and AI are FAR better than Mobley and Thornton. Its not the same as saying Kaman is better than Nene so it makes up for it. And no, Camby is NOT better than KMart.

Stop being in denial, the Clips are 9th. And its not like our depth is bad. LK, JR, Balkman rounds up a decent second unit.

DES
08-13-2008, 02:14 AM
kmart is better than camby? lol...ok...whatever u guys say. ai and melo is better then the clippers. hands down.

BRAVE KID
08-13-2008, 03:16 AM
I was going to ask you to explain why camby>k-mart but then I saw rdavis=jr smith, and didn't even want to hear the explanation.

DenButsu
08-13-2008, 03:21 AM
kmart is better than camby?

Yes.

You want to force the issue? Okay, let's break it down.


1. Camby is 33 and on the decline, K-Mart is 30 and improving.

PLEASE TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THIS. (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cambyvsmartince6.png)
(It kind of took me some time to make it). :cool:

It's clear as day that Camby ran out of steam somewhere around the trade deadline and just couldn't get it back together for the rest of the season. Now, it's true that an out-of-steam Camby - exceptional in these areas as he is - is still a better defensive rebounder and shot blocker than most of the players in the league. But if you're a coach or GM, and you're projecting to the next season, after looking at the trajectories of the above statistics, who would you predict is going to have a better 2008-09? ALL objective signs point to Kenyon - unless you'd just like to pretend that Camby's numbers didn't nose dive at the end of the season (and to an even worse extent in the playoffs, although I didn't include those numbers to spare Marcus the embarrassment).



2. While Camby is a fantastic rebounder and shot blocker, he cant defend one-on-one well at all. Meanwhile, K-Mart can be totally lockdown on SFs, PFs and Cs.

Lock down defense is something that's impossible to statistically quantify. I could try to provide some anecdotal evidence using youtube clips and whatnot, but I don't have the time. But anybody with any significant knowledge of the abilities and limitations of these two players understands perfectly well that K-Mart is a far superior on the ball defender to Camby. It's basically beyond dispute in my opinion.


3. While they're both chuckers who take ill-advised shots, K-Mart not only has a much better fg%, he doesn't play out of position all the time like Camby does.

If you were to search the Nuggets forum for the phrase "long range jumper" you'd hit a lot of posts in the game threads of people screaming in frustration as Camby, standing around as usual at the top of the key, lobs up another slow motion jumper that clanks off the rim. For all those 7 block games that gave us Nugs and Camby fans so much to cheer about, that was the dark side, the price we had to pay. You will learn of this soon. K-Mart also puts up a lot of poorly selected shots, but he does so almost exclusively from high percentage territory, which goes a long way towards minimizing the damage done. And next season, once his hops are pretty much back to 100%, he'll be doing less of the 5-foot jumper crap and more dunking.

Last season, Marcus Camby had 65 dunks averaging 35 minutes a game as our starting center. Our backup small forward, Linas Kleiza, had only four fewer dunks than Camby (61) in 24 minutes of play. Near the rim, Camby is practically worthless save for the occassional putback. Melo had 2.3 offensive rebounds last season; Camby had 2.9.


4. Camby is a stat stuffer who battles his own teammates for rebounds.

I did try to find - but couldn't - a youtube clip of Camby struggling to rip a rebound out of Kenyon's hands, nearly landing on him akwardly, which of course is a move that not only risks injury to both players but is stupid, selfish, and other than stuffing the stat sheet serves absolutely no purpose. I feel confident in predicting a career season in rebounding for Melo and Nene, and possibly for K-Mart as well, as they try to fill the vacuum left by Camby's absence - but do so working together as teammates, not in competition with each other. And I'm equally confident in predicting some frustration and contention between Kaman and Camby, probably around December or January, when Kaman - who isn't shy about letting people know how he feels - finally gets sick of Camby stepping on him trying to get boards.


5. If they actually do face up one-on-one in Nuggets vs. Clippers action, K-Mart is just going to abuse Camby like a red-headed stepchild.

Camby might get one good block in, but K will dunk it right in his face more than that. Camby's a great blocker, but he's also an opportunistic blocker. We saw in the playoffs just how soft he can be. K-Mart knows how to take advantage of that.


==========

And with that, I rest my case. :smoking:

==========

DES
08-13-2008, 10:28 AM
okay. bring stats after 09 season.

DES
08-13-2008, 10:52 AM
ricky davis=jr smith=bad attitudes and very selfish

asadf
08-13-2008, 12:19 PM
you will soon find, camby is as much of a liability as he is an asset. i loved him, but hes a BAD 1 on 1 defender. He gets abused by strong PF and C. He gets a lot of blocked shots coming from the weak side and gets a lot of rebounds. On offense, he is not content with just getting offensive rebounds. He insists on taking jumpshots which disrupt the offense and remove him as an offensive rebounding threat. Also, the last couple seasons were the first two in which marcus stayed healthy, there is a good chance he misses at least 20 games. I love his attitude and his leadership, but Nene is a better Center if he can stay healthy and K mart is a better defender.

and JR smith=ricky davis is an insane comparison.

JR has 25 PPG potential and is only what 22,23? ricky davis is old and has maybe 15 PPG potential.

C-Dub
08-13-2008, 01:18 PM
1. LA Lakers
2. NO Hornets
3. Houston Rockets
4. Utah Jazz
5. SA Spurs
6. Denver Nuggets
7. Phoenix Suns
8. GS Warriors

The Mavericks arent making nothin this year, the Warriors I think got better, the Suns are gonna get worse because Shaq is too old and the Spurs are only ahead of us because we dont have a good PG yet. If we do get one then I think we are better than their old skool team.

_Sn1P3r_
08-13-2008, 06:19 PM
Lol. ^^^

DenButsu
08-13-2008, 10:43 PM
Lol. ^^^

cteowityslol?

DES
08-13-2008, 11:33 PM
i checked the stats...u guys are right...i really thought that rdavis and jr smith...are very similiar players..but davis gets more mins then smith and smith has better efficiency....davis is only a better defender and passer...but...both are knuckle heads.....i really like smiths game while i havent watch davis played since he was in cleveland..

avsman05
08-13-2008, 11:43 PM
Ricky can't change who he is JR changed who he is over the course of 1 season he will just get better and better. you can quote that if you want.

DenButsu
08-14-2008, 12:27 AM
i checked the stats...u guys are right...i really thought that rdavis and jr smith...are very similiar players..but davis gets more mins then smith and smith has better efficiency....davis is only a better defender and passer...but...both are knuckle heads.....i really like smiths game while i havent watch davis played since he was in cleveland..

In the playoffs against the Lakers, and especially in game 4, J.R. was the best player for Denver - better than K-Mart, better than Camby, better than Melo, better than AI. No contest. "Knucklehead" is a description he has indeed earned through a lot of idiotic actions in the past (and the not-too-distant past at that). But as avsmans points out, he went a long way this season towards changing his ways - on and off the court - and his attitude. And when it comes to basketball, he's the real deal and then some, so we're really expecting him to go far provided he can keep his head screwed on straight.