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star
08-06-2008, 11:42 AM
I dont understand how people are projecting the raptors as a top 2 - 3 team in the east...

Look at the team

Constants
+ will likely improve
= means will stay the same
- means will be worse
? Who knows ?!?

Andrea ?
Bosh =
Calderon +
Kapono +
Parker -
Hump =
Moon +
Graham ?

Last year (OUT GOING)
Delfino +
Ford +
Rasho -
Baeston =

This Year (IN COMING)
JO +
Ukic ?
Jawai ?
Adams ?


Thats alot of question marks coming in

Compare
JO(when healthy) >> Rasho ----- rasho is older but put in great minutes when needed ; JO is better - but will he play more than 50 games? Will he be hurt come the end/playoff time?

Ukic ? << Ford (when healthy) Ukic right now cannot be taken in the same breath as ford ... not even a contest ... but will ford play well after his injury ... i think so ... he has always recovered well and remeber at the top of his game he is just as good if not better than calderon

Adams < Delfino - i rated adams less because he has not put together a single respectable NBA year ... Delfino has ... and showed flashes of being better than he was ... i think most people/gms would take delfino over adams if given the choice straight up.


Jawai = Baeston - Jawai hasnt played a game yet ... and was a late pick if he was 6 - 8th man material i think many scouts and gms would have taken him .... so hes pretty much like baeston was ... a deep bench guy ... although he may get minutes in an injury situation.

Lets assume BOTH TJ and JO miss 20 or so games (just to be fair because it is impossible to predict)

LAST YEAR ... Tj got hurt. However, when he got hurt we had Calderon fill the Gap .. (also delfino a bit too) and there wasnt a real drop off at the PG spot.

THIS YEAR ... when JO gets hurt (20 games)... there is a HUGE drop off at CENTER ... there is no backup or almost-allstar-callibre player to fill in (like calderon for ford) .... i think this years team is much more vulnerable.

JO goes down your starter becomes Bargs?(foul trouble....) then Jawai? HUGE drop off ... we are really thin at center .... at least last year our most fragile player had a borderline allstar as a back up ... this year our most fragile player has NOBODY than can play 30 minutes backing him up

When Tj goes down starter became Jose ... no real diff ...


So last year we were 5th seed?

With these above fact how do some "fans" put as at 2-3? .... damn i would put us at 5-7.

ALSO not to mention we now have better players in the east as compared to last year. So competition is going to be stiffer.

Bottom line ... raps fans please get a grip on reality ... dont just run off at the mouth about us being #2 or #3 when there are absolutely no real reasons to support it.

IN order for us to be #2 it will be:
IF JO returns to all-star form (how likely is that?) AND...
IF ANDREA becomes a top 6th man ((how likely is that?) AND...
IF our depthless bench holds up through injurys (how likely is that?)

So many what ifs .... and some of you put them at #2? .....Ridiculous

I can say i am embarrased to call myself a raps fan when people say things that are so far fetched .... #2 ... #3 ... at least act like you have some sort of basketball knowledge

travesy3
08-06-2008, 12:04 PM
I still see us fighting between the 4-6 seeds with Philly and Cleveland. But, JO will be healthy, I think he will play 65+ games this year. He said he had ONE injury, and it was the kind of thing he battled through, he could have had the surgery back in 04 when he originally had the tear, but waited until last year. He got the surgery, I think he will be healthy this year. It's not like he is getting constant different injuries, it was the same injury, for 3 years.

JO, on one leg, is more valuable to us then TJ Ford is. His toughness, rebounding and defense alone will make us a better team. Not to mention, I think Bosh is going to be even better, since he won't have to bang with the Centers all the time, which in turn will make him stay more healthy. Neither JO or Bosh is a C, but they can both split time rather than like before on their old teams, they would take the entire load and it would be just too much.

The Raps will improve, are they better than the Celtics and Pistons? No, in a series, could we give any other team in the East a run now? On paper, I think we can.

And if Bargnani ever busts out, and if we utilize Kapono, we will be a better team.

PS. I think Humphries is going to do some big things for us this year, he should have been getting more run for us last year to be honest, he would have big games, then ride the pine. I am glad our major depth is gone, because Sam felt the need to give everyone minutes, now he can just stick to one solid rotation.

I think Bargnani is set for a big year to be honest, I heard he has been hitting the gym a lot this summer, and most players, break out in their third NBA season. I am guessing Bargnani will be starting at SF by the end of the year, since we still lack some scoring.

GCOOKIE7
08-06-2008, 12:04 PM
HATERRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Raptors are winning it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mjt20mik
08-06-2008, 12:20 PM
Great post Star! I totally agree with you, I don't see how fans are predicting the Raps to be #2 in the EC. It's just plain homer-ism. But yeah, they will most likely be in that 4-6 range, if the team stays healthy.

Raptorballa
08-06-2008, 12:20 PM
why you guys all streesed out... you guys gotta relax and see what happens, u cant predict about other ppl... and how the hell would paker be bad?

Anyways, people like you bring our hopes down...

Just shut up and wait for the season to begin... we could we first in east or we could be last... no one knows...

travesy3
08-06-2008, 12:23 PM
I also don't see why you wouldn't be optimistic, but with optimism, comes reality, I still think we can give any team a run now in the East, although the Pistons and Celtics are leaps and bounds better, I think we can give any other of the playoff teams a run, and I think this is the year that we make a little bit of noise in the playoffs.

TO Fan
08-06-2008, 12:50 PM
You are right when you compare player to player, but you also have made several critical mistakes. Let me explain:

1. The bulk of your comparison is year to year improvement for each player and the net effect of outgoing and incoming players. The flaw in your argument is that it is very opinion based. For example, you have a plus for Ford. Yes Ford brought a lot to the table that is crucial in making us better, but benefit of him off the team and bringing up a back-up is greater than losing him. If we claim a conflict between Calderon and Ford as a negative, shouldn't breaking it apart and taking the better half be a positive (regardless of who we bring in to replace)?

2. You are not looking at how this impacts us as a TEAM. With JO in the middle (regardless of if he reaches his allstar level), he commands a huge presence and respect from oppossing defenses. This means that Bosh is able to play farther away from the basket rather than banging bodies with the center all the time. Now the big men on the other team have to split their efforts on two big men as oppossed to 1 (you can't count rasho and bargs as true centers).

3. Also with JO in the middle, we now have weakside help. What happenned often throughout the year, was that because of our lack of size, our wings were forced to come in and help on the weakside. Bosh was forced to body up to the oppossing player driving in and all our wings converged and didn't cover the shooters. Now with Bosh and JO in the middle, our wings can stay out with confidence that the big men can cover the inside.

In general, I don't think it is farfetched to think that we can be in the top 3.

blujaysrock
08-06-2008, 01:05 PM
anything is posible

The Wise 1
08-06-2008, 01:10 PM
Ukic ? << Ford (when healthy) Ukic right now cannot be taken in the same breath as ford ... not even a contest ... but will ford play well after his injury ... i think so ... he has always recovered well and remeber at the top of his game he is just as good if not better than calderon


Oh snap, no you didnt. I know you didnt just go there. Im just playing with ya. Good post, I agree with everything.




3. Also with JO in the middle, we now have weakside help. What happenned often throughout the year, was that because of our lack of size, our wings were forced to come in and help on the weakside. Bosh was forced to body up to the oppossing player driving in and all our wings converged and didn't cover the shooters. Now with Bosh and JO in the middle, our wings can stay out with confidence that the big men can cover the inside.

I agree with what your saying but I dont think he's our answer to our perimeter D problems. Jose, Parker, Moon, Kapono and i'm assuming Ukic probably form the worst perimeter D in the league. No shot blocker is going to eliminate our perimeter blow by problem. All its going to do is get Oneal in foul trouble.

ink
08-06-2008, 01:13 PM
why you guys all streesed out... you guys gotta relax and see what happens, u cant predict about other ppl... and how the hell would paker be bad?

Anyways, people like you bring our hopes down...

Just shut up and wait for the season to begin... we could we first in east or we could be last... no one knows...

First, welcome to PSD. Second, there are rules on the forum, and telling another poster to "shut up" doesn't fall within those rules.

There are a lot of new posters this off-season, and that's a good thing. But this is a quality site and we expect you to make quality posts - how about some good reasoning, some stats or good examples to back up your claims? :D

I think Star makes some good points.

carruthers32
08-06-2008, 01:29 PM
you guys have to remember this year we will be going with a tighter rotation, therefore less guys will be getting minutes.

AgentViet
08-06-2008, 01:49 PM
I project us at the 4-5 seed, but anything is possible. The JO-Bosh duo down low with shooters all over should work out great, but time will tell.

star
08-06-2008, 05:56 PM
why you guys all streesed out... you guys gotta relax and see what happens, u cant predict about other ppl... and how the hell would paker be bad?

Anyways, people like you bring our hopes down...

Just shut up and wait for the season to begin... we could we first in east or we could be last... no one knows...

exactly ....

but i thing YOU should shut up ... because my point is that PEOPLE who are predicting big things are out to lunch because logically and on paper it makes no sense at all

star
08-06-2008, 06:01 PM
Also ... its not that im hating or being pessimistic .... its called reality.

And the reality is ... we really ARENT a better team by that much.

In the playoffs suppose JO is on 1 leg or not healthy ... we are WAY worse than last year ....

Im not saying that we will lose and be a crappy team .... im just saying that there is not enough to suggest that we are a 2nd round team yet ... or even a 1 - 3 seed.

star
08-06-2008, 06:04 PM
Oh snap, no you didnt. I know you didnt just go there. Im just playing with ya. Good post, I agree with everything.



I agree with what your saying but I dont think he's our answer to our perimeter D problems. Jose, Parker, Moon, Kapono and i'm assuming Ukic probably form the worst perimeter D in the league. No shot blocker is going to eliminate our perimeter blow by problem. All its going to do is get Oneal in foul trouble.

VERY VERY good point .... all the blow bys will definitely put a defensive player like JO and a confused player like andrea into foul trouble quickly ... then look out Jawai will log 25 min a game .... that should put us into the 2nd and 3rd round

RAPS424
08-06-2008, 06:55 PM
JO goes down your starter becomes Bargs?(foul trouble....) then Jawai? HUGE drop off ... we are really thin at center .... at least last year our most fragile player had a borderline allstar as a back up ... this year our most fragile player has NOBODY than can play 30 minutes backing him up

SO WHAT IF KG GOES DOWN.. WHAT IF DWIGHT HOWARD GOES DOWN.. OR RASHEED GOES DOWN..OR LEBRON.... U TELLING ME THE DROP OFF ISNT THE SAME..? ANY TEAM THAT LOSES THEIR ALL STARS IS GONA SUFFER... WEAK POINT.. WITH THE PLAYERS WE HAVE.. WE CAN CONTEND WITH ANYONE IN THE EAST....ON PAPER!!!!

IversonIsKrazy
08-06-2008, 07:17 PM
u can't look at it like that. u gotta c how much is JO better than rasho and such. think abt it, in our post game. we got bosh & jo, plus we got bargs, hump & jawaii 2 back 'em up. Then we gott amazing 3-point shooters around them like parker & kapono. We got periemeter defenders as parkers and moon. And we got a premier pg in Jose Calderon. Plus we got a pretty good bench, young team, and international flavour. we'll b 5th or higher next year in the east.

argo
08-06-2008, 07:40 PM
First of all, your analysis of the Raptors is pretty good.. But I still think the JO deal makes this team better than last year.

Second, Boston is a big favorite to win the conference again, but who is to follow and in what order is a toss up. So what if some guys say 2-3? I don't see any other clear-cut favorites for those spots? You can't blame fans for hoping/ predicting their team comes in 2nd or 3rd!

argo
08-06-2008, 07:44 PM
JO goes down your starter becomes Bargs?(foul trouble....) then Jawai? HUGE drop off ... we are really thin at center .... at least last year our most fragile player had a borderline allstar as a back up ... this year our most fragile player has NOBODY than can play 30 minutes backing him up

SO WHAT IF KG GOES DOWN.. WHAT IF DWIGHT HOWARD GOES DOWN.. OR RASHEED GOES DOWN..OR LEBRON.... U TELLING ME THE DROP OFF ISNT THE SAME..? ANY TEAM THAT LOSES THEIR ALL STARS IS GONA SUFFER... WEAK POINT.. WITH THE PLAYERS WE HAVE.. WE CAN CONTEND WITH ANYONE IN THE EAST....ON PAPER!!!!

lol, you don't need to bold and cap everything to get ATTENTION!!!!!

aman_13
08-06-2008, 09:14 PM
I think we just have to wait and see. This team has a lot of potential and Star has some good points, but we are not going to know how good Ukic will turn out, or if JO returns to that All-Star level or not until the season gets going. Who knows, this team may not get off to a good start, but gets better and better as the season goes on and then plays to expectations. This is still a young team, especially the bench, there are question marks, but i think they are going to suprise people like Star who don't think that they got that much better.

aman_13
08-06-2008, 09:28 PM
As for the lack of depth, Star makes a good point, if a player like JO does get hurt then we need someone to step up. That is why Bargs is the X-Factor. I believe it is very important for him to have a big year. Also any team who loses a big player because of injury will hurt there team. If LeBron goes down, then Cleveland will be in big trouble, if Chris Paul goes down, then the Hornets will also be in trouble. You cannot replace these players, others have to step up and fill in those positions.

maxgraham
08-06-2008, 09:30 PM
please change title to SOME raptors fans... i'm not predicting shizzat and take offense to the generalization that i, being a raptors fan, need to settle down.

star
08-06-2008, 10:49 PM
^ good call .... and i didnt mean to imply ALL raps fans

There are plenty on this site that agree with me

And plent that have brought up better arguments than myself to support the same premise (ex. the wise one)

So i agree ... SOME raps fans .... or lets say most fans .... because it is apparent with some of the stuff we read on here a large number of fans do not understand nor think critically about our team

ink
08-06-2008, 11:17 PM
please change title to SOME raptors fans... i'm not predicting shizzat and take offense to the generalization that i, being a raptors fan, need to settle down.

Changed at your request. :D


^ good call .... and i didnt mean to imply ALL raps fans

There are plenty on this site that agree with me

And plent that have brought up better arguments than myself to support the same premise (ex. the wise one)

So i agree ... SOME raps fans .... or lets say most fans .... because it is apparent with some of the stuff we read on here a large number of fans do not understand nor think critically about our team

Thinking critically about the team sounds good to me. It's all about the quality posts. :clap: I like the idea of this forum being respected because the posters know the game so well. That's our goal.

huidogg
08-06-2008, 11:28 PM
I dont understand how people are projecting the raptors as a top 2 - 3 team in the east...

Look at the team

Constants
+ will likely improve
= means will stay the same
- means will be worse
? Who knows ?!?

Andrea ?
Bosh =
Calderon +
Kapono +
Parker -
Hump =
Moon +
Graham ?

Last year (OUT GOING)
Delfino +
Ford +
Rasho -
Baeston =

This Year (IN COMING)
JO +
Ukic ?
Jawai ?
Adams ?


Thats alot of question marks coming in

Compare
JO(when healthy) >> Rasho ----- rasho is older but put in great minutes when needed ; JO is better - but will he play more than 50 games? Will he be hurt come the end/playoff time?

Ukic ? << Ford (when healthy) Ukic right now cannot be taken in the same breath as ford ... not even a contest ... but will ford play well after his injury ... i think so ... he has always recovered well and remeber at the top of his game he is just as good if not better than calderon

Adams < Delfino - i rated adams less because he has not put together a single respectable NBA year ... Delfino has ... and showed flashes of being better than he was ... i think most people/gms would take delfino over adams if given the choice straight up.


Jawai = Baeston - Jawai hasnt played a game yet ... and was a late pick if he was 6 - 8th man material i think many scouts and gms would have taken him .... so hes pretty much like baeston was ... a deep bench guy ... although he may get minutes in an injury situation.

Lets assume BOTH TJ and JO miss 20 or so games (just to be fair because it is impossible to predict)

LAST YEAR ... Tj got hurt. However, when he got hurt we had Calderon fill the Gap .. (also delfino a bit too) and there wasnt a real drop off at the PG spot.

THIS YEAR ... when JO gets hurt (20 games)... there is a HUGE drop off at CENTER ... there is no backup or almost-allstar-callibre player to fill in (like calderon for ford) .... i think this years team is much more vulnerable.

JO goes down your starter becomes Bargs?(foul trouble....) then Jawai? HUGE drop off ... we are really thin at center .... at least last year our most fragile player had a borderline allstar as a back up ... this year our most fragile player has NOBODY than can play 30 minutes backing him up

When Tj goes down starter became Jose ... no real diff ...


So last year we were 5th seed?

With these above fact how do some "fans" put as at 2-3? .... damn i would put us at 5-7.

ALSO not to mention we now have better players in the east as compared to last year. So competition is going to be stiffer.

Bottom line ... raps fans please get a grip on reality ... dont just run off at the mouth about us being #2 or #3 when there are absolutely no real reasons to support it.

IN order for us to be #2 it will be:
IF JO returns to all-star form (how likely is that?) AND...
IF ANDREA becomes a top 6th man ((how likely is that?) AND...
IF our depthless bench holds up through injurys (how likely is that?)

So many what ifs .... and some of you put them at #2? .....Ridiculous

I can say i am embarrased to call myself a raps fan when people say things that are so far fetched .... #2 ... #3 ... at least act like you have some sort of basketball knowledge


wow, excellent post! i agree with you completely.. some raptors fans r just competely insane to start ranking the raptors 2nd or 3rd or even the top of the east over boston!!! they need to face the reality and do not let their imagination takes off.. i don't have anything to say other than i really apprericate your post and finally someone agrees with me!

Master P
08-07-2008, 12:03 AM
okay, lets start from the top.

The Raptors were the 6th seed last year. not 5th. not 3rd. 6th! they were a .500 team so they were lucky to be that high.

second off. in the big greater than, worse than analysis, the entire starting lineup (ie the most important players on the team) weren't assessed. lets compare this coming season to last:

pg: calderon > ford (like it or not, ford wasn't too great last season)
sg: parker = parker (solid)
sf: moon > moon (or kapono > kapono)
pf: bosh = bosh
c: o'neal > rasho

yeah...the main contributers to the raptors success look better. and everyone is optimistic because it is due to this 'on paper' improvement that we feel the raptors are better than the 47 win atlantic division champions from two years ago. that leaves us reasonably expecting a franchise high in wins, and therefore, a good playoff seeding in an improved conference. lowest possible 5th, highest possible maybe even 2nd (though unlikely).

and then to further bash the assessment of the team; I am sick of hearing people talk about ukic and jawai like they are going to be a huge part of the teams success. they wont be. all ukic has to do is run a slow down offense that dumps it into bosh or oneal. if he proves to be capable of more than this simple task, then great, the raptors will be a better team. and then jawai...if he gets anything but garbage minutes or injury time i will **** my pants. the raptors have a three man rotation for the bigs....oneal, bosh, bargs. that's it. hump gets time on back-to-backs, foul trouble, things like that...

anyway, im sure some of you have read this...but here is my shameless plug...i have my assessment / rankings of the eastern conference...and also a statisical study of how good JO makes the raptors on my blog:

http://jurassicplayground.blogspot.com/

maxgraham
08-07-2008, 12:04 AM
thank you :)

raptors wiseguy
08-07-2008, 12:15 AM
okay, lets start from the top.

The Raptors were the 6th seed last year. not 5th. not 3rd. 6th! they were a .500 team so they were lucky to be that high.

second off. in the big greater than, worse than analysis, the entire starting lineup (ie the most important players on the team) weren't assessed. lets compare this coming season to last:

pg: calderon > ford (like it or not, ford wasn't too great last season)
sg: parker = parker (solid)
sf: moon > moon (or kapono > kapono)
pf: bosh = bosh
c: o'neal > rasho

yeah...the main contributers to the raptors success look better. and everyone is optimistic because it is due to this 'on paper' improvement that we feel the raptors are better than the 47 win atlantic division champions from two years ago. that leaves us reasonably expecting a franchise high in wins, and therefore, a good playoff seeding in an improved conference. lowest possible 5th, highest possible maybe even 2nd (though unlikely).

and then to further bash the assessment of the team; I am sick of hearing people talk about ukic and jawai like they are going to be a huge part of the teams success. they wont be. all ukic has to do is run a slow down offense that dumps it into bosh or oneal. if he proves to be capable of more than this simple task, then great, the raptors will be a better team. and then jawai...if he gets anything but garbage minutes or injury time i will **** my pants. the raptors have a three man rotation for the bigs....oneal, bosh, bargs. that's it. hump gets time on back-to-backs, foul trouble, things like that...

anyway, im sure some of you have read this...but here is my shameless plug...i have my assessment / rankings of the eastern conference...and also a statisical study of how good JO makes the raptors on my blog:

http://jurassicplayground.blogspot.com/

yea have to agree with you the starting lineup has improved..and with a tighter rotation they will see the majority of the minutes now

well for JO needing a backup- the reason we dont have a quality centre backing up JO in case he goes down is because its really hard to have a quality player backing up every position in case of injury..the raps have tried it b4 with a super-deep team but that didnt work because there werent enough minutes to go around

say we did have a decent backup that would be able to play 30 mins a night if there was an injury..such as rasho..then we would have a 4 man rotaion of bigs instead of 3...taking away minutes from bosh and JO...IMO less time with our 2 best bigmen takes away from the quality of the play on the floor....sam would have a tough time if the quality backup centre outplays bargs....he knows that bargs needs to develop but the backup deserves the minutes

i still think the raps have a chance to be in the top 3 of the east..but its more likely they finish 4th or 5th

deaner
08-07-2008, 12:18 AM
I agree to an extent regarding over-hype. As I've said before, the JO trade should be the first step in a 2 step process. We can try him for half a year... if it works and we want to enter the playoffs with him thats fine... if there's a team who wants him bad for a run at Boston they should be willing to give us some young talent and expirings, or we keep him into his final year and have a huge expiring for 2010. A big name and 23 million contract is more than we started with. Fans that think the team is complete are out to lunch, but we are closer, I believe, than last year. One simple little test I would use would be put our present team up against last years Magic playoff team. I think we wouldn't be embarrassed and might take it. I'm well aware that the east has improved... but that's what makes this season exciting.... NO ONE KNOWS this team could be 1 through 9th seed. Unfortunately, too much of the factors are in Sam's hands. One can only hope when Sam's playing golf he is strategically thinking.

travesy3
08-07-2008, 12:22 AM
I think Hump should be getting more run than Bargs at the PF/C spot, Bargnani should be getting the mins at SF lost and PF rarely, I think Hump is a really solid player, and is a good banger and has a lot of hustle and leaves it out on the floor. And considering JO and Bosh, one of the two will be on the floor at once(unless in a blow out), that means we won't have TWO bad post players on the floor at once, we will always have low post threat on the floor.

SF/SG rotation should be fine with Moon, Kapono, Bargnani and Parker taking up the buld of the minutes there, and Adams getting some time as well. Ukic is a pretty big question, at least for me, since I have never seen him do anything, but he looks pretty good to me. But like stated above, Ukic is always going to have JO/Bosh to dump it down to, not like he is going to be carrying a major load. However, if Jose goes down, we are in big time trouble in my opinion.

I think people are starting to underestimate our depth, our depth last year was almost a problem to be honest, we never had a steady rotation. We have a solid backup now at each position, I think our depth is more than good, although we could stand to have a backup plan for a PG, as well as a big man who could help out in case of injury since I don't want Jawai anywhere near the starting lineup.

The Wise 1
08-07-2008, 12:23 AM
lol, you don't need to bold and cap everything to get ATTENTION!!!!!

SHOWS HOW MUCH YOU KNOW!! :)

Reagarding comparing players this season to last. "sg: parker = parker (solid)"

I am really curious to see about Parker and how much he slows down. IMO Parker slowed down a lot on the defensive end and stayed the same on offense. However its not that hard to not slow down when your mainly shooting jump shots. IMO Parker was average at best last season on the defensive end and I really want to see if he slows down even more on that side of the ball this season.

The Wise 1
08-07-2008, 12:29 AM
I think Hump should be getting more run than Bargs at the PF/C spot.

It is of my opinion that Kris outplayed Andrea whenever he got minutes.

deaner
08-07-2008, 12:33 AM
^ please don't undervalue the potential for the 10 day contract. I believe it will be used by BC more this year than years passed. We will not find an equally skilled player for our big 3... but we can use it to fill some holes along the way. Yes, we will be thinner on the bench... it was planned that way and we are not limited to our 13 men. Who knows... a guy like Deke could come in and give fill a void if need be... ( I don't know if he's signed or playing this year... it's just an example)

travesy3
08-07-2008, 12:39 AM
Deke said he won't sign for the min, he would be an amazing addition for us.

boston08champs
08-07-2008, 12:56 AM
I say were better than philly and we beat them season opener enuff said. :D

Bob_at_york
08-07-2008, 01:31 AM
okay, lets start from the top.

The Raptors were the 6th seed last year. not 5th. not 3rd. 6th! they were a .500 team so they were lucky to be that high.
so the raptors were lucky to miss Garbo for the whole season and to have Bosh and TJ both miss significant time? I call that bad luck but you call it good luck.

hades
08-07-2008, 04:10 AM
good post star.
yea it is kind of unrealistic t0 projct them as the 2nd seed. or maybe even 3rd seed.

as much as i think they are good as 4th i still think theyll be a 5th realistically now that iggy is about to resign and depending who else the sixers get with the other five million they got left remains to be seen. (source hoopshype)

on a different note..... allan houston anyone? can we sign him for a leaugue minimum?

Jwizel_hitshrs
08-07-2008, 09:17 AM
raptor hater started this obviously! like all american media...........

star
08-07-2008, 10:13 AM
raptor hater started this obviously! like all american media...........

nice contribution

Tom Stone
08-07-2008, 10:35 AM
There is alot of people questioning...is the raps worthy of being called the 2 or 3 best team in the east...and there are some unknown factors....This is why I think Raps are worthy.....Rather you understand this or not the Raptors improved dramicalty at the point gaurd spot....I know some people are gonna have to see it happen to believe it.....A big problem last year was calderon and T.j really played differnt styles and it didn't have a good effect for our team, we were contanly trying to ajust to the differnt styles...this bugged t.j, big time....There was nights were t.j was auctually making ok passes...but our guys had trouble handling his passes....because calderon makes it so easy...they had trouble ajusting.....Having calderon as our guy this year with no termoile, and Roko...who a few people are slleping on..Im not...I well aware what he capable of...he will mesh perfectaly with calderons style...both European and used to really moving the ball....That will be one of our strong points.....Now im gonna talk about Jermaine o'neal....If you listened to everything, the whole ordeal with his knee....you would feel optimistic that he will be good this year....With him and bosh down low we become the hardest team in the nba to defend down low.....Dubble bosh...O'neal open and vise versa....with people worring about that, night to night.....It will open up our shooters kopono and AP.....With t.j out of the picture and our ball movement at a miximum high, with our weapons will be a tough team to gaurd.....Now...Nathan Jawai.....I really like this kid.....280 pound....light footed, athletic.....Things you need to know....he played rugby before basketball...And for those who arn't filmilar with rugby....It's like football...without padding and alot tougher....he also played soccer alot because it's huge over in Australia.....Soccer makes you develop foot to eye coridiantion....In basketball it helps with footwork....And over seas the train abit differntly, they do individal skill training like soccer players train...it's not so much playing as it is developing differnt skills, so even thou he only played 6 years so far, he ahead of the game more than you think......So with his background and what he already showed me....I am really high on him.....There is a few more things I could mention....but im going to cut it off here....because this is getting long.....peace

GregOden#1
08-07-2008, 10:50 AM
The Raps had a Pythagorean W-L of 49-33 and they only went 41-41, that's either really unlucky or they just really suck at closing out games.

pebloemer
08-07-2008, 12:56 PM
There is alot of people questioning...is the raps worthy of being called the 2 or 3 best team in the east...and there are some unknown factors....This is why I think Raps are worthy.....Rather you understand this or not the Raptors improved dramicalty at the point gaurd spot....I know some people are gonna have to see it happen to believe it.....A big problem last year was calderon and T.j really played differnt styles and it didn't have a good effect for our team, we were contanly trying to ajust to the differnt styles...this bugged t.j, big time....There was nights were t.j was auctually making ok passes...but our guys had trouble handling his passes....because calderon makes it so easy...they had trouble ajusting.....Having calderon as our guy this year with no termoile, and Roko...who a few people are slleping on..Im not...I well aware what he capable of...he will mesh perfectaly with calderons style...both European and used to really moving the ball....That will be one of our strong points.....Now im gonna talk about Jermaine o'neal....If you listened to everything, the whole ordeal with his knee....you would feel optimistic that he will be good this year....With him and bosh down low we become the hardest team in the nba to defend down low.....Dubble bosh...O'neal open and vise versa....with people worring about that, night to night.....It will open up our shooters kopono and AP.....With t.j out of the picture and our ball movement at a miximum high, with our weapons will be a tough team to gaurd.....Now...Nathan Jawai.....I really like this kid.....280 pound....light footed, athletic.....Things you need to know....he played rugby before basketball...And for those who arn't filmilar with rugby....It's like football...without padding and alot tougher....he also played soccer alot because it's huge over in Australia.....Soccer makes you develop foot to eye coridiantion....In basketball it helps with footwork....And over seas the train abit differntly, they do individal skill training like soccer players train...it's not so much playing as it is developing differnt skills, so even thou he only played 6 years so far, he ahead of the game more than you think......So with his background and what he already showed me....I am really high on him.....There is a few more things I could mention....but im going to cut it off here....because this is getting long.....peace

Jawai - I am also high on Jawai, but not for this year. He will need to learn to stay away from fouls and learn the NBA game before we can expect anything substantial from him.

Ukic - I think Ukic has a lot of talent and will be a good backup PG for this team. I admit that there are unknown's amist about how his game will translate to the NBA but with Calderon as a mentor, I don't think it will take too long for him to get comfortable.

Oneal - "Now im gonna talk about Jermaine o'neal....If you listened to everything, the whole ordeal with his knee....you would feel optimistic that he will be good this year." I felt the same way until about a couple weeks ago when I saw an interview from him after he was coming back from missing two years. He said the exact same things and went down right away and missed another two seasons. I wouldn't say I am optimistic about JO's health, I am cautiously optimistic.

I think it is fair to say there are a lot of question marks. I wouldn't be surprised if the season starts off slow while some of the new guys adjust. I have a lot of confidence in the leadership on the court (Jose, Parker, Bosh) to make this adjustment a smooth, quick one, but it will still take a little time until we see what the new look Raptors are capable of.

Tom Stone
08-07-2008, 01:57 PM
It is of my opinion that Kris outplayed Andrea whenever he got minutes.

Well said i agree completly....Kris hump is a underated player...and good rebounder...when he was given steady mins..he brought toughness witch doesn't show up on stats sometimes...and his offence is much better than people give him credit....he lead all softmores in college in rebounding and scoreing....look for a braek out year for hump...if he gets mins....Come on sam!

Goon.Weezy
08-07-2008, 02:55 PM
Raptorsssssssssss Takin It Babyyyyyyy...........screw The Haters

star
08-07-2008, 03:51 PM
Raptorsssssssssss Takin It Babyyyyyyy...........screw The Haters

... intelligent

lukeem21
08-07-2008, 08:22 PM
I think Hump would be a great role player if he jsut calmed down a little and didnt look for some of the terrible shots he takes... defense, rebounding, and dunks should be his game. He would compliment Bargnani perfectly then too and Sam could bring which ever one he needs more at that time.

RaPToR_FeVeR
08-09-2008, 11:05 AM
Star is just a HATER... Raptors, Eastern Conference Champions... =)..

Star.. your star spangled banner is down south =)..

P.S. is any season ticket holders selling their October 31st tickets? Let me know.

Goon.Weezy
08-09-2008, 02:43 PM
Raptors Pon Top.........yeeeee Digg

reevanson
08-19-2008, 12:32 AM
I dont understand how people are projecting the raptors as a top 2 - 3 team in the east...

Look at the team

Constants
+ will likely improve
= means will stay the same
- means will be worse
? Who knows ?!?

Andrea ?
Bosh =
Calderon +
Kapono +
Parker -
Hump =
Moon +
Graham ?

Last year (OUT GOING)
Delfino +
Ford +
Rasho -
Baeston =

This Year (IN COMING)
JO +
Ukic ?
Jawai ?
Adams ?


Thats alot of question marks coming in

Compare
JO(when healthy) >> Rasho ----- rasho is older but put in great minutes when needed ; JO is better - but will he play more than 50 games? Will he be hurt come the end/playoff time?

Ukic ? << Ford (when healthy) Ukic right now cannot be taken in the same breath as ford ... not even a contest ... but will ford play well after his injury ... i think so ... he has always recovered well and remeber at the top of his game he is just as good if not better than calderon

Adams < Delfino - i rated adams less because he has not put together a single respectable NBA year ... Delfino has ... and showed flashes of being better than he was ... i think most people/gms would take delfino over adams if given the choice straight up.


Jawai = Baeston - Jawai hasnt played a game yet ... and was a late pick if he was 6 - 8th man material i think many scouts and gms would have taken him .... so hes pretty much like baeston was ... a deep bench guy ... although he may get minutes in an injury situation.

Lets assume BOTH TJ and JO miss 20 or so games (just to be fair because it is impossible to predict)

LAST YEAR ... Tj got hurt. However, when he got hurt we had Calderon fill the Gap .. (also delfino a bit too) and there wasnt a real drop off at the PG spot.

THIS YEAR ... when JO gets hurt (20 games)... there is a HUGE drop off at CENTER ... there is no backup or almost-allstar-callibre player to fill in (like calderon for ford) .... i think this years team is much more vulnerable.

JO goes down your starter becomes Bargs?(foul trouble....) then Jawai? HUGE drop off ... we are really thin at center .... at least last year our most fragile player had a borderline allstar as a back up ... this year our most fragile player has NOBODY than can play 30 minutes backing him up

When Tj goes down starter became Jose ... no real diff ...


So last year we were 5th seed?

With these above fact how do some "fans" put as at 2-3? .... damn i would put us at 5-7.

ALSO not to mention we now have better players in the east as compared to last year. So competition is going to be stiffer.

Bottom line ... raps fans please get a grip on reality ... dont just run off at the mouth about us being #2 or #3 when there are absolutely no real reasons to support it.

IN order for us to be #2 it will be:
IF JO returns to all-star form (how likely is that?) AND...
IF ANDREA becomes a top 6th man ((how likely is that?) AND...
IF our depthless bench holds up through injurys (how likely is that?)

So many what ifs .... and some of you put them at #2? .....Ridiculous

I can say i am embarrased to call myself a raps fan when people say things that are so far fetched .... #2 ... #3 ... at least act like you have some sort of basketball knowledge

I was just wondering what makes your opinion any more valid than those people that think the raps with be in the top of the East? If you arent optimistic about the Raps choose another team, part of being a fan is optimist for your team. Its ok to see faults your team, but it sounds like your rooting against them. I am embarrassed to call myself a raptors fan when people start threads ripping on other raptors fans for thinking their team is going to succeed.

star
08-19-2008, 01:48 AM
I was just wondering what makes your opinion any more valid than those people that think the raps with be in the top of the East? If you arent optimistic about the Raps choose another team, part of being a fan is optimist for your team. Its ok to see faults your team, but it sounds like your rooting against them. I am embarrassed to call myself a raptors fan when people start threads ripping on other raptors fans for thinking their team is going to succeed.

my opinion is more valid becase it is shared by every single professional basketball analyst.

tuk420
08-19-2008, 02:20 AM
so we lost Delfino, Ford, Nesterovic isn't that it? and we got J/O and some junk players I think the teams not as deep but we got alot of potential so no need to settle down.

what we are pumped about:

J/O and Bosh : at least one of these guys will always be on the court way better then bosh being off and Bargano being on with Rasho or Hump

Calderon feeding the post: Now he has two big man to feed the ball to..... the defensive will have to pay way more attention to our front court creating opportunities for Parker and Kapano on the wings


Our defensive: the Raptors were one of the softest teams in the league no one was scared to drive against them.... now lets see what teams try to do.Not to mention Moon led rookies in blocks last year. Plus we finally got someone talking to these guys to keep them going on the court....and the way Bosh is yelling in Beijing we may have two guys to yell at the players to keep them going

Bargani playing against Second Tier Players: ummmm note the second half of his rookie season. He played the best games of his career then all against secondary players Now he will have that chance again


Roko: he my not be better then TJ ford but hes got to be better than Derrick Martin right? yeah check out when TJ was out last year Roko should be able to give Calderon enough of a break that he's good to go and feed the post PLus calderon's shot has only got better with more playing time

reevanson
08-19-2008, 04:21 AM
my opinion is more valid becase it is shared by every single professional basketball analyst.

Ohhh I see, then every single basketball analyst must be right, like Kenny Smith putting Orlando in 9th, Philly in 13th and Miami in 3rd was right, in the east for his preseason ranking for 2007. And old Marc Stein putting 76ers at 28th, Chicago in 8th in his 2007 preseason ranking. Or NBA.com's 2007 preseason ranking with Philly in 25th and T-Blaze in 26th. Or that Marc Jackson would be the coach of the Knicks, or that Brand would stay in LA, or that Riley didnt like Beasley's game and would not draft him. Yeah I guess I need to start agreeing with the basketball analysts then my opinion would be valid because they are always right!

huidogg
08-19-2008, 04:53 AM
I was just wondering what makes your opinion any more valid than those people that think the raps with be in the top of the East? If you arent optimistic about the Raps choose another team, part of being a fan is optimist for your team. Its ok to see faults your team, but it sounds like your rooting against them. I am embarrassed to call myself a raptors fan when people start threads ripping on other raptors fans for thinking their team is going to succeed.


Well forgive me if i don't exactly agree with you. First of all, all Star is doing is telling us to race the reality.. and in reality, we are no way going to be the #1 or #2 or even #3 seat in the East! We cannot beat Boston (No way in hell), Detroit and Magic (Howard is still going to dominate us like he did few months ago even with JO around. And plz remember how Nelson own Calderon, mmm.. i don't think tat going to change even next year) All he is saying is to face the reality, and even with the JO (wooo, you raptors fans are so excited, like we got lebron james or sth) we are no where near the top in the east. So yah u guys better seattle down! And one thing i need to point out, even no one here will agree with me is tat our bench is much much much (i am sorry if you think i am overemphasising) weaker than last year. We upgrade our starters but degrade our bench, that will hurt us down the road. We Simply got rid of Delfino and Rasho (two real experienced key players to our bench rotation last year, even if they are gone, please do respect that they were our key bench players) for ALL unproven and inexperienced players in Jawii, Solomon, Ukic, and Adams. Our bench simply consist of those guys plus bustangi and Kopono. I am sorry if i leave our Joey and Hump.. haha.. but that it, there go our bench. This inexperience bench will not lead us to the top of the east. No way.

One more thing i want to ask are all the raptors fan optmistic during the Babcock days??? I see you raptors fans bashing and screaming how bad the raptors are, So do you think you guys don't deserve to be a raptor fan, the answer is NO.. i think you guys deserve to be raptors fans, but raptors fan sometimes are critical to the team. Remember how we bash Arujo, that is in reality, he is a horrible player. That does not mean we are being negative, it just being the fact that we face reality, and we realize that he is crap. Same thing goes here, in reality, and plz be honest, we are just not as good as the top dogs in the east such as celtics, magic and pistons, i am not saying that we are not going to be the top dogs, all i am saying is tat it' juz not time yet for us to be the top dogs in the east.

One last thing, imo, Star is not rooting for other teams, as i said before, he is just racing reality, and the reality is that we are just not as good as the top dogs in the east, and we raptor fans need to realize it, we can't expect that much, the more we expect, the more we will be disappointed, just like last season, many raptors fans at the end scream out and bash out on how bad the raptors play, it is becuz they expect too much on this young team. There goes my point, sorry if you think it' too long, but i just think your previous comments are abit unfair. Thanks!

huidogg
08-19-2008, 05:22 AM
so we lost Delfino, Ford, Nesterovic isn't that it? and we got J/O and some junk players I think the teams not as deep but we got alot of potential so no need to settle down.

what we are pumped about:

J/O and Bosh : at least one of these guys will always be on the court way better then bosh being off and Bargano being on with Rasho or Hump

Calderon feeding the post: Now he has two big man to feed the ball to..... the defensive will have to pay way more attention to our front court creating opportunities for Parker and Kapano on the wings


Our defensive: the Raptors were one of the softest teams in the league no one was scared to drive against them.... now lets see what teams try to do.Not to mention Moon led rookies in blocks last year. Plus we finally got someone talking to these guys to keep them going on the court....and the way Bosh is yelling in Beijing we may have two guys to yell at the players to keep them going

Bargani playing against Second Tier Players: ummmm note the second half of his rookie season. He played the best games of his career then all against secondary players Now he will have that chance again


Roko: he my not be better then TJ ford but hes got to be better than Derrick Martin right? yeah check out when TJ was out last year Roko should be able to give Calderon enough of a break that he's good to go and feed the post PLus calderon's shot has only got better with more playing time

Hey, u mention the things that we might be pumped about, so may i address some things that we might not be so pumped about??

What we might not be so pumped about:

*THE BENCH* mmmmm.. like i said over and over again, this bench that we have this year is way inferior than the bench of last year. We lost delfino and rasho (two key players to our bench for inexperience unproven players such in Jawaii, Adams, Solomon and Ukic. The only player i see that might have some impact might be Ukic. But other than that, i don't see adams, Jawaii and Solomon playing a key role for us next year.

*Our Starting Small Forward* In order to be the top dogs in the east, i think we need a little better starting foward than moon dogg here. Hell this kid can jump and dunk, but hell he cannot be your starting small forward. He can't really score or defend (oh wait, you guys put him as a defensive specialist... mmm.. but he got creamed last year by almost every starting swing players from every team we face. I have prove, last year, you raptors fans are bashing about how everytime we get creamed by other team' starting swing players.

*Our point guard* Calderonnnn as our starting point guard, he is my man, ofcuz i will be excited. But one thing tat i am worried about is the inconsistancy of his play in the last few games in beijing for spain. He has been playing horrible, and he seems to be overshadow by the billiant plays of a rising youngster by the name of Ricky Rubio. So tat got me worried a little bit, juz a little bit. But what worried more is our backup point guard. I have a little faith in Ukic, but i don't think he will be a solid backup point guard next year. He will be a solid point guard in the NBA, but it' too early, he need time to develop. And if Ukic is injured, then Solomon will be our backup point guard (yay) but no offence, i rather see a 36 years old vet run the point than Solomon. You talk about how our Forward combination in JO/Bosh is a big upgrade, than the combination of Calderon/Ukic is a downgrade from last year' Calderon/Ford combination.

*Experiency* Many people say JO brings in leadship and experiency, don't get me wrong here, yes i sure agree, a six time ( i think, lol) allstar ofcuz will bring us leadership and experiency. But what i am worried is the inexperience of the bench. (yes here go my bashing on the bench again, cuz i am very piss off on this year' bench, and i am not bump at all for this bench.) This year bench is proberly the weakest and most inexperience bench i see the raptors have in a long while. 4 new inexperience players we bring in, 2 players in Hump and Joey that get very little mins, and a 3rd year player who is trying to develop and still learn his game. The most experience player we got is kopono. That ALL!!! It was a huge lost that we lost Rasho and Delfino, two vet with championship experience that provide leadership to our bench, but beside kopono, all other bench players have very very little experience.

Anyways, yah, no offence to u, but you mention the things tat we should pumped about, so racing the reality, i think i should also mention the things that we should not so pumped about. Maybe afterall, we need to take a deep breathe, and relax and settle down just a little bit, just a little... lol..

reevanson
08-19-2008, 07:16 AM
Well forgive me if i don't exactly agree with you. First of all, all Star is doing is telling us to race the reality.. and in reality, we are no way going to be the #1 or #2 or even #3 seat in the East! We cannot beat Boston (No way in hell), Detroit and Magic (Howard is still going to dominate us like he did few months ago even with JO around. And plz remember how Nelson own Calderon, mmm.. i don't think tat going to change even next year) All he is saying is to face the reality, and even with the JO (wooo, you raptors fans are so excited, like we got lebron james or sth) we are no where near the top in the east. So yah u guys better seattle down! And one thing i need to point out, even no one here will agree with me is tat our bench is much much much (i am sorry if you think i am overemphasising) weaker than last year. We upgrade our starters but degrade our bench, that will hurt us down the road. We Simply got rid of Delfino and Rasho (two real experienced key players to our bench rotation last year, even if they are gone, please do respect that they were our key bench players) for ALL unproven and inexperienced players in Jawii, Solomon, Ukic, and Adams. Our bench simply consist of those guys plus bustangi and Kopono. I am sorry if i leave our Joey and Hump.. haha.. but that it, there go our bench. This inexperience bench will not lead us to the top of the east. No way.

One more thing i want to ask are all the raptors fan optmistic during the Babcock days??? I see you raptors fans bashing and screaming how bad the raptors are, So do you think you guys don't deserve to be a raptor fan, the answer is NO.. i think you guys deserve to be raptors fans, but raptors fan sometimes are critical to the team. Remember how we bash Arujo, that is in reality, he is a horrible player. That does not mean we are being negative, it just being the fact that we face reality, and we realize that he is crap. Same thing goes here, in reality, and plz be honest, we are just not as good as the top dogs in the east such as celtics, magic and pistons, i am not saying that we are not going to be the top dogs, all i am saying is tat it' juz not time yet for us to be the top dogs in the east.

One last thing, imo, Star is not rooting for other teams, as i said before, he is just racing reality, and the reality is that we are just not as good as the top dogs in the east, and we raptor fans need to realize it, we can't expect that much, the more we expect, the more we will be disappointed, just like last season, many raptors fans at the end scream out and bash out on how bad the raptors play, it is becuz they expect too much on this young team. There goes my point, sorry if you think it' too long, but i just think your previous comments are abit unfair. Thanks!

being critical of a team is fine, my problem with this thread is the fact that he is not just critical of the team, he is ripping on fans that think the raps may be in the top 3, I dont understand why he has to tear down someones opinion. I happen to agree with his ranking I think they will be in 6th seed or lower but there is a chance that they may be higher just like there is a chance that they may not make the playoffs. But I am not going to start a thread listing the reasons that those people who think they wont make the playoffs are douche bags! I may have one listing the reasons why I think they would make the playoffs but it would have nothing to do with the fans!!!

star
08-19-2008, 07:52 AM
being critical of a team is fine, my problem with this thread is the fact that he is not just critical of the team, he is ripping on fans that think the raps may be in the top 3, I dont understand why he has to tear down someones opinion. I happen to agree with his ranking I think they will be in 6th seed or lower but there is a chance that they may be higher just like there is a chance that they may not make the playoffs. But I am not going to start a thread listing the reasons that those people who think they wont make the playoffs are douche bags! I may have one listing the reasons why I think they would make the playoffs but it would have nothing to do with the fans!!!

Well its not that i am ripping all fans ... i am ripping people who think we will be #1 and #2 because it makes the fans (us) seem uneducated and arrogant.

Just like Maple Leaf Fans - who insist every year we are going to win the cup. It is annoying and stupid.

If you agree with my ranking then why argue with my assessment by bringing up the fact we got JO and all your points. I took that into consideration and have reached the conclusion that we will be 5 - 7. APPARENTLY you agree ... so i dont get it

star
08-19-2008, 07:54 AM
Also fans whos OPINION is that we will be #1 or #2 are not really educated fans ... they are just homers who do not understand basketball.

Can we be #1 .... sure
Can the Bobcats be #1 ... sure

Like im not saying it ISNT possible ... just not likely and not something to expect.

reevanson
08-19-2008, 08:00 AM
Well its not that i am ripping all fans ... i am ripping people who think we will be #1 and #2 because it makes the fans (us) seem uneducated and arrogant.

Just like Maple Leaf Fans - who insist every year we are going to win the cup. It is annoying and stupid.

If you agree with my ranking then why argue with my assessment by bringing up the fact we got JO and all your points. I took that into consideration and have reached the conclusion that we will be 5 - 7. APPARENTLY you agree ... so i dont get it

I never brought up the fact that we got JO you must have me mixed up with someone else. I never argued with your assesment, I was defending people that may disagree with it (if that makes any sense) But its all good I dont want to get into an arguement. Cheers

Mile High Champ
08-19-2008, 09:09 AM
Its fine, same old argument from star, he thinks the raps are over-rated and wont accomplish anything close to what some of us feel will happen. Why even bother arguing, he is going to always have his negative outlook for the raps and other fans feel the raptors fortunes have improved greatly this year. Star see's the glass half empty, we see it half full.... I am one fan who knows we are not going win the east next year, I would love it but I don't think it will happen. The number 2 spot will be tough to get from the pistons and or magic. I do think we fall somewhere between 3 and 5 though.

We don't need the bench depth we had last year. Sam Mitchell and Colangelo have said they wanted to go a smaller bench for 2008-2009 season. There was way to many players getting minutes last season. Consider this; 4 of our starting 5 starters should see 35 minutes per game. That is not exactly a negative thing by any means. Kapono and Moon wlll probably split time at SF equally. The leaves only 15 mins per game for the backups at each spot. Consider that Ford last year rarely utilized Kapono from beyond the arch, he never passed it out to kapono ever. Calderon will be able to get Kapono the ball like he did in the playoffs, he will be a huge weapon in our starting lineup or on our bench with JO and Bosh in the post. Our starting lineup is obviously much stronger now. The raps only need to use 8-9 players a game, we don't need to have a great bench player at each spot to be have a great season. We did last season because we were so weak at center in terms of a legit starter. We needed to overcompensate with our bench to make up for our average starters at SF and Center. Now we have changed that with a big time upgrade at center. This off-season has been a success in my eyes.

coolmo
08-19-2008, 09:54 AM
One more thing i want to ask are all the raptors fan optmistic during the Babcock days??? I see you raptors fans bashing and screaming how bad the raptors are, So do you think you guys don't deserve to be a raptor fan, the answer is NO.. i think you guys deserve to be raptors fans, but raptors fan sometimes are critical to the team. Remember how we bash Arujo, that is in reality, he is a horrible player. That does not mean we are being negative, it just being the fact that we face reality, and we realize that he is crap. Same thing goes here, in reality, and plz be honest, we are just not as good as the top dogs in the east such as celtics, magic and pistons, i am not saying that we are not going to be the top dogs, all i am saying is tat it' juz not time yet for us to be the top dogs in the east.


We've seen Araujo playing bad, that's why fans were critical. We've never seen Jo/Bosh combo with new team mates, that's why we are being optimistic, hoping to be a top. Everyone has their own opinion and hope.
If Raptors turns out better chemistry and no injuries, they COULD be top of the east next to BOS, who knows? only God knows.
people do HOPE things which may sound stupid and impossible.

At this point of offseason, we could say anything, cuz anything is possible before acutally seeing.
we could miss playoff too, who knows...

coolmo
08-19-2008, 10:10 AM
Also fans whos OPINION is that we will be #1 or #2 are not really educated fans ... they are just homers who do not understand basketball.

Can we be #1 .... sure
Can the Bobcats be #1 ... sure

Like im not saying it ISNT possible ... just not likely and not something to expect.

IMO, they are just saying raps are the top team in the east, cuz that's what they are hoping for.
People buy lotto ticket even if they know they are not going to win.
but they still buy it cuz it has a very tiny little chance to win.
Are you going to call them stupid and uneducated people?

I guess there is much more chance to win a championship than winning a lotto.

I think people who go to other teams' forum and saying that we are the #1 team in the east, are wrong. Cuz, in reality, it isn't.
but i think it is ok as long as it is posted in raptors forum, cuz it's their team.

People who buy a lotto and spend all their money before checking if it's a winning ticket, is stupid.
what i am trying to say is, everybody can hope and being homer @ home (Raptors forum), but be more responsible @ other forum.

nads83
08-19-2008, 11:20 AM
i think even the number 1 is in the realm of possiblity. you cant predict injuries. and NO ONE can predict bargnani. say bargnani taps into his potential, no one can gaurd him at the 4 or 5. say JO is healthy and gives us 16 and 8. say bosh continues to get better, looks like he has, playing wit team usa. say kapono has a career yr which hes primed to do considering his minutes will go up and JO and bosh will give him open shots all yr. say moon has a better yr. say calderon puts up allstar numbers.

why isnt 1 possible? then again why isnt missing the playoffs entirely possible? point is nothing is impossible. luck has much to do winning as anything else. we need to stay healthy

Tom Stone
08-19-2008, 02:15 PM
Star is going to have to make alot of apoligies, after the Raptors prove him wrong,...... normally when I'm right, I take the high road, and don't rub it in peoples faces.....but the way Star has rudely attacked people over the past few weeks....I look forward to proveing him wrong.

The Wise 1
08-19-2008, 04:35 PM
Dear Oracle (AKA Tom Stone)

What are your visions of Andrea? :)

star
08-19-2008, 08:40 PM
Dear Oracle (AKA Tom Stone)

What are your visions of Andrea? :)

his visions are that andrea will put up 25 and 10 and lead them to a championship

Tom Stone
08-19-2008, 09:00 PM
his visions are that andrea will put up 25 and 10 and lead them to a championship

I wouldn't put our hopes and dreams on Andrea's play.....I concider him our X factor, you really don't know what to expect with him, especially if were playing him at back up center.

Tha Truth
08-20-2008, 01:14 PM
I hope Andrea does come around this year and bounces back from a disapponting season to say the least.

Just need some consistency from him.

He really is an X-Factor though.

If he can give like 12-16 pts/gm and like 5 rebs/gm off the bench that would be great.

Mile High Champ
08-20-2008, 02:18 PM
his visions are that andrea will put up 25 and 10 and lead them to a championship

what nothing else from star today, I am disappointed :(

Tom Stone
08-20-2008, 02:34 PM
I hope Andrea does come around this year and bounces back from a disapponting season to say the least.

Just need some consistency from him.

He really is an X-Factor though.

If he can give like 12-16 pts/gm and like 5 rebs/gm off the bench that would be great.

If he does that, that would be fine, for a back up center.....I want to see him get other bigs in foul trouble, with his versatility.......But if I was barg, I would worry about Nathan Jawari, coming into preseason and stealing the back up role.....That would be great, just put barg back to SF where he allready played well at his rookie year, so our SF would be barg and moon and shooting gaurds, AP and Kopono.......If nathan can become a physical presence as a banger, grad rebounds and putbacks, and we play barg at the 3, all of a sudden were huge, three seven footers to start, alhletic moon comes off the bench with physical Nathan and physical Hump,
I think our offence will be fine, but I wanna see us become that Nasty defence, tough match up team, and thats how we do it.

BowDown32
08-20-2008, 02:39 PM
I don't know how you can say we AREN'T that much better with the pick up of Jermaine? Are you crazy?

If he was injured or not he is a 6-time All-Star and was close to MVP in 2004 where Indiana had a 61-21 record with almost nobody. Yes he is older, but anytime you pick up a veteran player you make your team better. Why do teams always go after guys like James Posey?... Defence, Leadership, Court Awareness. JO will make the Raps better, a lot better.

Now, I'm a Ford fan (now I have to retire my Raps Ford jersey) and I loved how he could go out and score the ball which the Raps need. But all in all the Raps needed to improve in 3 categories this offseason. Defense, Scoring and Rebounding. Jermaine makes us better in all 3 of those categories. Which in turn makes us a much better basketball team.

Why couldn't the Raps finish in the top 3? It's not unrealistic at all we can't finish that high. We have a great core of 8 players that can all add their own intangibles to the game. With Jermaine, Bosh, Calderon, Parker, Kapono, Moon, Humph and Bargnani we can match up with any other 8 players in the East. Maybe we don't have that 2-3 that can score but with a team game we are right there.

With JO at Centre EVERYTHING opens up. Kapono had his best year when he could stand outside and catch and shoot of post-ups from the Big Aristotle. Parker, Kapono and Calderon all will shoot in the top 10 of 3pt%, especially if they play inside out. Bosh has so much more freedom and on the defensive side has anyone seen Bosh in the Olympics. Without having to score so much he can focus a bit more on D and JO still gets 2 blks a game.

Injuries are always something that comes up. You can say all you want about him playing 50 games. What happens if KG gets injured for 20 games. Do the Celtics still finish 1st in the East? I bet you they don't!!!

So all injuries aside the Raptors are just as good as Cleveland, Orlando or Philly the other teams fighting for that 3-spot. Who knows with turmoil in Big D and the aging squad of Boston with no Posey coming off they bench who can honestly say the Raps have no chance of getting in the top 3.

If you do, that is being UNREALISTIC, it has nothing to do with being a 'homer'.

Tha Truth
08-20-2008, 02:56 PM
I don't know how you can say we AREN'T that much better with the pick up of Jermaine? Are you crazy?

If he was injured or not he is a 6-time All-Star and was close to MVP in 2004 where Indiana had a 61-21 record with almost nobody. Yes he is older, but anytime you pick up a veteran player you make your team better. Why do teams always go after guys like James Posey?... Defence, Leadership, Court Awareness. JO will make the Raps better, a lot better.

Now, I'm a Ford fan (now I have to retire my Raps Ford jersey) and I loved how he could go out and score the ball which the Raps need. But all in all the Raps needed to improve in 3 categories this offseason. Defense, Scoring and Rebounding. Jermaine makes us better in all 3 of those categories. Which in turn makes us a much better basketball team.

Why couldn't the Raps finish in the top 3? It's not unrealistic at all we can't finish that high. We have a great core of 8 players that can all add their own intangibles to the game. With Jermaine, Bosh, Calderon, Parker, Kapono, Moon, Humph and Bargnani we can match up with any other 8 players in the East. Maybe we don't have that 2-3 that can score but with a team game we are right there.

With JO at Centre EVERYTHING opens up. Kapono had his best year when he could stand outside and catch and shoot of post-ups from the Big Aristotle. Parker, Kapono and Calderon all will shoot in the top 10 of 3pt%, especially if they play inside out. Bosh has so much more freedom and on the defensive side has anyone seen Bosh in the Olympics. Without having to score so much he can focus a bit more on D and JO still gets 2 blks a game.

Injuries are always something that comes up. You can say all you want about him playing 50 games. What happens if KG gets injured for 20 games. Do the Celtics still finish 1st in the East? I bet you they don't!!!

So all injuries aside the Raptors are just as good as Cleveland, Orlando or Philly the other teams fighting for that 3-spot. Who knows with turmoil in Big D and the aging squad of Boston with no Posey coming off they bench who can honestly say the Raps have no chance of getting in the top 3.

If you do, that is being UNREALISTIC, it has nothing to do with being a 'homer'.


I couldn't agree more with this post. It's like you read my mind.

Like Garnett said when the Celtics won the championship.


"ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE"

BowDown32
08-20-2008, 03:00 PM
my opinion is more valid becase it is shared by every single professional basketball analyst.

Your opinion is more valid? Let me guess, you work for ESPN right?

How do you say you are a fan and talk all this nonsense about the Raptors?Every analyst out there will say that the Raptors have the best frontcourt in the East. They will also say we have the best 3pt shooters in the East. With that combination the Raps CAN be deadly. Not saying they will be, but we look nice.

We stunk the joint up at defense and rebounding. We gave up scoring and leadership to get scoring, leadership, rebounding and defense in return. This year we might be able to play defense and will sure as heck rebound the basketball.

Everyone's opinion is valid. I'm not gonna say I know who you are and how much you know about basketball, but don't sit there and think that everything you say is on point and all professional analysts would agree with you. I work in the basketball community and travel from Canada down to the States every summer to go to ball camps and talk to coaches at all ranks. I think I'll listen to them more than I will you thanks.

star
08-20-2008, 07:29 PM
its funny how people think we will be a better defensive team due to one aquisition ....


Does having JO = Jose will not get blown by
Does having JO = Kapono can gaurd ANY 2 - 3 in the leauge
Does having JO = Parker will not get slower this year like he did last year
Does having JO = Bargs will be able to play defense at 3?

oh wait we have Ukic, adams, and Jawai they are proven NBA defenders right ....?

Our 1 - 3 is the WORST in the league at defense ... having JO will NOT help that.

We have improved rebounding wise? Really? JO isnt going to get 40 rebs a game ... he might get 10 ... but is that alone going to help?

I have said it before ... we are AMAZING offensively ... we can score at will (except in the playoff when other teams really try to defend) .... but never the less .... we are a upper end team with respect to offence ... but we are BOTTOM end defensively ... so that makes us average ... not a #1 or #2 seed .... sorry boys

pebloemer
08-21-2008, 08:39 AM
Injuries are always something that comes up. You can say all you want about him playing 50 games. What happens if KG gets injured for 20 games. Do the Celtics still finish 1st in the East? I bet you they don't!!!

So all injuries aside the Raptors are just as good as Cleveland, Orlando or Philly the other teams fighting for that 3-spot. Who knows with turmoil in Big D and the aging squad of Boston with no Posey coming off they bench who can honestly say the Raps have no chance of getting in the top 3.

If you do, that is being UNREALISTIC, it has nothing to do with being a 'homer'.

KG actually missed 11 games last year. A stretch where the Celtics went 9-2. At that pace they would have very easily still gotten first if he missed nine more games... I am not sure that is the best example to make your point because the evidence from last year would say the opposite (the Celtics would be fine).

pebloemer
08-21-2008, 09:15 AM
its funny how people think we will be a better defensive team due to one aquisition ....


Does having JO = Jose will not get blown by
Does having JO = Kapono can gaurd ANY 2 - 3 in the leauge
Does having JO = Parker will not get slower this year like he did last year
Does having JO = Bargs will be able to play defense at 3?

oh wait we have Ukic, adams, and Jawai they are proven NBA defenders right ....?

Our 1 - 3 is the WORST in the league at defense ... having JO will NOT help that.

We have improved rebounding wise? Really? JO isnt going to get 40 rebs a game ... he might get 10 ... but is that alone going to help?

I have said it before ... we are AMAZING offensively ... we can score at will (except in the playoff when other teams really try to defend) .... but never the less .... we are a upper end team with respect to offence ... but we are BOTTOM end defensively ... so that makes us average ... not a #1 or #2 seed .... sorry boys

Alright, lets look at the defense thing because you make some valid points but I am not sure how we go from an average defensive team to a bottom end defensive team from the off-season. Last season we ranked 15th in defensive efficiency (a stat that looks at how many points are scored against a team per every 100 possessions). That puts us at middle of the pack defensively in terms of points scored. So I think that would be a good starting point for discussion. I understand that defensive efficiency does not take into account everything, but find me another stat which does and I'm all in to start there too.

We lost Delfino, Rasho, and Ford who were all decent defenders. I remember a comment Bosh made early last year about Rasho being an anchor on defense and not getting appreciated for what he does on defense so maybe he is above average, I am not sure.

Delfino's minutes will likely be replaced by Kapono and Adams. Adams was brought in for defense, so he is unproven but should still be able to hold his own. Kapono is a bad defender, so we definately lose a step here.

Rasho's minutes will be replaced by JO. JO has proved to be a very good defender when healthy. Predictions about the Raptors usually assume a healthy roster but we will see how the transition works out. Who will be the anchor on defense now? Will Bosh step up in this regard or will JO take over and embrace the role?. Either way, I think JO and Bosh will be better defensively than Rasho and Bosh. So we gain a step here.

TJ Ford's minutes will be replaced by Calderon and Ukic, possibly some of Solomon as well. The minutes Calderon will get will step us back defensively and Ukic and Solomon are unproven defensively. Neither is known for their defense (that I know of), so I would bet a step back there too.

In regards to Parker slowing down, I am not sure about this one. He will still make his opponent work for points, I don't see him becoming a below average defender, I would consider him a constant.

A lot will be seen when the season starts whether we improve or whether we get worse, but help with rebounding will also mean improvement in offensive and defensive rebounding which gives more possessions for our team (in theory and on paper, in the game the math isn't quite so simple).

Is our two steps back and one step forward on defense enough to put us in the bottom of the league defensively? I wouldn't go that far, but I wouldn't assume it would be better all of a sudden either.

Star, I think your points are valid and a reason for concern, but I think you are exaggerating it against our favor. You, like me probably saw far too many blow bys, open shots and easy layups over the course of the game to become cynical of our defense. But I would say that a lot of other teams have those problems too. There is a big gap between our defense and the defense of Boston or Detroit, but few teams reach that caliber on defense.

star
12-22-2008, 05:01 PM
Time to say I TOLD YOU SO ......


some of you need to have a look back at how wrong you were about the teams hopes ... DOL-FAN ... TOM STONE ... to name a few ....

Although i hate that the raps are garbage ... but i love demonstrating how short-sighted and unrealistic toronto fans can be ...