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Towelie
08-04-2008, 01:51 PM
If this start isn't positive is it the last for Buchholz for now?

RedSoxtober
08-04-2008, 02:06 PM
I doubt it. His line against LAA looks bad in hindsight, but Hansen had a lot to do with that. Overall he showed a lot of improvement there. I think they're likely to stick with him for a few more shots through the rotation.

yaowowrocket11
08-04-2008, 02:12 PM
Unless he doesn't get out of the first inning, I expect him to get 3-5 more starts. Then the Red Sox will decide to either keep him in the rotation, or let him develop some more down in Pawtucket.

jcs88
08-04-2008, 02:18 PM
I like Buchholz, in some ways he reminds me of Ian Kennedy of the Yankees, just a harder thrower and a little more talented. Like Kennedy, its just a matter of him translating his success into the major leagues. Maybe not this year, but sooner or later Buchholz will get it together.

quiksilver2491
08-04-2008, 02:22 PM
I like Buchholz, in some ways he reminds me of Ian Kennedy of the Yankees, just a harder thrower and a little more talented. Like Kennedy, its just a matter of him translating his success into the major leagues. Maybe not this year, but sooner or later Buchholz will get it together.

I forgot the link but their actually was an article comparing Buchholz's mechanics to Kennedy's and they were pretty much identical. Should be interesting to see how they pan out.

ThreeIfBaerga
08-04-2008, 02:26 PM
I forgot the link but their actually was an article comparing Buchholz's mechanics to Kennedy's and they were pretty much identical. Should be interesting to see how they pan out.


Mechanics are one thing, but Buchholz has raw stuff that scouts drool over, Kennedy doesn't. It's all a matter of Buchholz putting in the time and effort to harness what he's got. I've heard reports of him as not being the hardest worker going, so it is troubling that he isn't taking the necessary steps.

It should be Ellsbury that we're talking about sending down, not Buchholz.

Run Gardner Run
08-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Their Mechanics might be the same, but to compare Kennedy to Bucholtz is an insult, and im a Yankee fan

homie564
08-04-2008, 02:32 PM
Mechanics are one thing, but Buchholz has raw stuff that scouts drool over, Kennedy doesn't. It's all a matter of Buchholz putting in the time and effort to harness what he's got. I've heard reports of him as not being the hardest worker going, so it is troubling that he isn't taking the necessary steps.

It should be Ellsbury that we're talking about sending down, not Buchholz.

why??

hes not doing that bad... :confused:


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7912

ThreeIfBaerga
08-04-2008, 02:38 PM
why??

hes not doing that bad... :confused:


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7912

OPS by month:

April: .836
May: .771
June: .591
July: .566
August: .222

He's been getting worse by the month. The league has figured out that with his wrist in the shape that it is he can do nothing with inside fastballs but turn them over and ground out. He's not driving anything with authority, and it's hurting this ball club. He hasn't stolen a base since July 1st. He's drawn only FIVE walks since June 1st. He's been a truly terrible hitter since about two months into the season.

kazzy4080
08-04-2008, 03:35 PM
if he continues to struggle and no one gets hurt he will be sent down when colon gets back

papipapsmanny
08-04-2008, 03:48 PM
yeah and ellsbury has had an awful approach to the plate, he keeps taking fastball in the zone for strikes without swinging at them, and then swings at crap for strike 3

he has gotten lessons from lugo or something

ellsbury has been very overrated, without speed he is pretty much a very bad hitter right now imo

probably wouldnt have been so bad to lose him for santana, which i said then, i just wanted to keep lester and buccholz

but what can u do

as for buch AAA is no good for him see jon lesters career as an example of how pitchers have to transition into the league, but buccholz's fastball is no where near very fast he works around 91-92 mph and that is just not fast enough with his shaky control

Towelie
08-04-2008, 04:48 PM
Ellsbury gets send down for who Coco? I would rather rip my pubes out one by one then let that happen.

Celts22
08-04-2008, 04:51 PM
Has there been any news lately on Colon's progress?

jcs88
08-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Their Mechanics might be the same, but to compare Kennedy to Bucholtz is an insult, and im a Yankee fan

Yeah and you were probably one of the guys bragging about Generation Trey last September

All I was saying was they're both fastball/changeup/curve guys, and their changeups are kind of similar. I was referring mostly to the repertoires, but of course Buchholz will be the better pitcher.

Bottom line is I dont think you need to worry about Buchholz, and if he doesnt pan out this year its not the end of the world

PapelbonLester
08-04-2008, 05:12 PM
Has there been any news lately on Colon's progress?

Sun, Aug 3 RHP Bartolo Colon is scheduled to make a rehab start for the Triple-A Pawtucket (R.I.) Red Sox on Tuesday night, and RHP David Aardsma threw a perfect inning during a rehab stint with Pawtucket on Sunday. The hard-throwing Aardsma is believed to be much closer to being activated than Colon, and would likely take the place of RHP Chris Smith when he's healthy enough to return. Colon is expected to make several rehab starts with the PawSox before any decision is made on his future with the big club.

Towelie
08-04-2008, 05:31 PM
Has there been any news lately on Colon's progress?

Ya, he's still fat.

Sportfan
08-04-2008, 06:13 PM
i think ellsbury should go on the dl. he's been horrible ever since he hurt his wrist on a diving catch 2 months ago

kazzy4080
08-04-2008, 06:55 PM
im not too concerned about ellsbury as a hitter because hes a young guy and its hard to step up as a rookie and bat 300 or whatever, i think hes hitting will eventually come together, but one thing that does worry me is him stealing bases, he only had one last month (july) and none this month, and in july he got caught 3 times which almost doubled his season total, i remember talking bout him breaking the rookie stolen base record and now hes barely even trying to steal

JoTyler65
08-04-2008, 07:52 PM
Ellsbury cant steal bases if hes not getting on base.

As for Buchholtz, Masterson is clearly the better starter at this point. His conversion to setup guy has been really shaky. He's not pitching with the command or confidence that he pitches with as a starter. IMO he's a starter not a reliever. I say get Masterson back into the five-spot and give Timlin more opportunites to pitch in close games.

kazzy4080
08-04-2008, 08:03 PM
Ellsbury cant steal bases if hes not getting on base.

As for Buchholtz, Masterson is clearly the better starter at this point. His conversion to setup guy has been really shaky. He's not pitching with the command or confidence that he pitches with as a starter. IMO he's a starter not a reliever. I say get Masterson back into the five-spot and give Timlin more opportunites to pitch in close games.

wow thanks, ur smart do u go to cornell? thanks for making it so clear now

last 24 times ellsbury has got on base he has 0 stolen bases and has been caught 3 times. The 30 times before that he has 8 stolen bases and has been caught twice

ewhits24
08-04-2008, 10:00 PM
yeah i love buchholz as much as the next sox fan, hes hurting the team, he hasnt won in god knows how long, and has a 6 ERA. Masterson should be starting right now not buchholz, we dont have time to be messing around and letting him get beat by the royals because we arent guarenteed anything right now as far as the playoffs go

papipapsmanny
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
keep buch, u act like all of the pitchers that are good today were good from the time they had their 1st start

papipapsmanny
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
once buch finds his command he will be dominant

ewhits24
08-04-2008, 10:20 PM
i completely understand what your saying, but "once he finds his command" could be the end of september, masterson was fire as a starter for the 4-6 starts he made. I think we all agree buchholz will be dominant in the future, but i dont think the sox can afford at least at this point to have him pitch with a 6 era this late in the season

Danmcn12
08-04-2008, 10:47 PM
He pitched decent today, didnt get much help from his offense.

RedSoxtober
08-05-2008, 08:30 AM
...

ellsbury has been very overrated, without speed he is pretty much a very bad hitter right now imo

probably wouldnt have been so bad to lose him for santana, which i said then, i just wanted to keep lester and buccholz

but what can u do

as for buch AAA is no good for him see jon lesters career as an example of how pitchers have to transition into the league, but buccholz's fastball is no where near very fast he works around 91-92 mph and that is just not fast enough with his shaky control

Regarding Ellsbury, there are a lot of people who'd disagree with you. Old timers like me were pretty encouraged to see that George Brett names Ellsbury as one of the "special" players whom he likes to watch. (Pedroia and his long swing are not on his list.) I think Ellsbury needs time. With all his hype and tremendous debut in '07 we expected way too much from him.

As for Buchholz, you just can't compare Lester at PAW and Buchholz at PAW. Every player is different. Lester, for example, never had any consistent success at AAA and he spent some decent time there. Buchholz spent very little time there and had pretty good success except for his bookend outings (first and last). It's pretty clear that he needs some major work on his fastball command. The best offspeed stuff in the world is useless if you can't spot your fastball.

Right now he reminds me a bit of Dice-K last year -- not in the repertoire but in the penchant for big innings. How many hits did the Royals have in the third? It was walks, HBP, WP, etc. He got rattled too quickly and paid for it.


Has there been any news lately on Colon's progress?

He's starting for Pawtucket tonight (Aug 5) and will make a few starts down there as they measure how ready he'll be.


i completely understand what your saying, but "once he finds his command" could be the end of september, masterson was fire as a starter for the 4-6 starts he made. I think we all agree buchholz will be dominant in the future, but i dont think the sox can afford at least at this point to have him pitch with a 6 era this late in the season

IMO It's too late to get Masterson back into the rotation. The Sox FO placed their bets on him in the pen and Buchholz in the rotation. They've allowed Masterson to shorten up and it'd take a little time to stretch him back out. He'd be lost in any meaningful capacity for at least a couple of weeks.

And before we get too carried away with the Masterson-to-the-rotation talk, let's get some perspective on where Justin was at the time he moved to the pen via PAW. In his last five starts in MLB he had a 4.55 era, 1.42 whip, and 21K/16bb in 29.2IP. Those numbers are not so compelling as compared to Buchholz that there's a clear choice. Given, however, that Masterson is a heavy ground ball pitcher he makes more sense in the BP than Clay.

lil'papi
08-05-2008, 09:17 AM
^^ Nevermind Masterson was on an innings watch this year.

I keep hearing and heard again last night Buchholz is VERY immature on and off the field. Enough that Beckett has had talks with him about it.

He acts immature as a pitcher instead of bearing down he squirms and wiggles. I've seen it so many times its easy to pick up. Most pitchers go FB when things get sloppy he doesn't he goes change/curve.
He needs to pitch forward not backward. That alone concerns me. I also believe Colon is taking his spot. At some point he has to man up on the road his splits are a concern.

He loses focus too easy.

Meche lastnight came back throwing harder after a sloppy start he mixed locations. He then went back to his secondaries. (forward)

I'm far from concerned longterm he has the stuff. At some point we can't wait any longer though. If not already...

cocossox
08-05-2008, 01:10 PM
i hear Ardsma is throwing well & when he returns he'll take smiths spot too bad we get another decent bp arm so masterson can take his spot in the rotation hes been worse than awful & its in his head too which is never good.

JoTyler65
08-05-2008, 02:13 PM
wow thanks, ur smart do u go to cornell? thanks for making it so clear now

last 24 times ellsbury has got on base he has 0 stolen bases and has been caught 3 times. The 30 times before that he has 8 stolen bases and has been caught twice

Wow-I make one post in this forum and this is how you get treated? :speechless:

Nothing personal, man. Its just if youre not getting on base, you dont feel comfotable stealing bases. Its all about how comfortable you are. Maybe hes not getting a good read the few times hes been on base or he hasnt been in a running situation. Its not like he's lost his speed from a wrist injury.

kazzy4080
08-05-2008, 03:04 PM
my b for being a bit harsh, but i think he should be encouraged to steal more and hopefully jumpy start the offense a little

kazzy4080
08-05-2008, 03:13 PM
^^ Nevermind Masterson was on an innings watch this year.

I keep hearing and heard again last night Buchholz is VERY immature on and off the field. Enough that Beckett has had talks with him about it.

He acts immature as a pitcher instead of bearing down he squirms and wiggles. I've seen it so many times its easy to pick up. Most pitchers go FB when things get sloppy he doesn't he goes change/curve.
He needs to pitch forward not backward. That alone concerns me. I also believe Colon is taking his spot. At some point he has to man up on the road his splits are a concern.

He loses focus too easy.

Meche lastnight came back throwing harder after a sloppy start he mixed locations. He then went back to his secondaries. (forward)

I'm far from concerned longterm he has the stuff. At some point we can't wait any longer though. If not already...


i agree with all the bucholz immature stuff, he just doesnt seem to take command of a game, he kind of just hopes he gets outs and his stuff can be so good that he does

RSF1977
08-05-2008, 03:57 PM
What scares me about Ells is he seems to be very impatient up at the plate.
He seemed very calm and looked at alot of pitches in the beggining of the year. I noticed that he has been swinging at the first pitch very often as of late. I think he needs to be a little more selective at the plate and he will get back in to the groove.

fanatical18
08-05-2008, 06:27 PM
Buchholz will be fine. Almost all of his peripherals tell me that his luck will be changing soon--if not this year, then next.

His K rate is above 8.5, which is excellent, his BABIP against is .364. That should lower unless he just completely collapses. His left on base percentage is very low at 61%...this explains the high ERA. In almost every case, this number reverts to what is normally considered average (around 72% for the better pitchers, a little lower for the less talented).

Yes his control has been relatively poor this year, but historically his control has been great and remember, he is still very young for his level. His FIP (fielding independent ERA, which takes luck out of the equation) is 4.18. Believe me, he'll figure things out eventually. For the sake of this team's playoff chances, however, he needs to figure things out soon.

The Intimidator
08-05-2008, 06:33 PM
Quite simply, Buchholz's problem is that he doesn't throw his fastball enough. His offspeed pitches are very developed, but he relies too much on them. If he throws his fastball more, he might begin to see his luck change.